What is being asked is that ALL content be viable for ALL playstyles. And while folks are trying to tell me it isn't possible for it to be this way, Blizzard has proved that theory wrong 10 fold. If a company wants to maximize the number of subscribers to its product, it needs to try its best to make sure its accessible by as many people as possible. There is a reason why WoW is the #1 MMORPG on the planet.
I was with you until you went down this road. While that reasoning sounds logical, it's not. Mythic tried that with Warhammer and it failed because people didn't want another WoW style game, they wanted an improved DAoC style game. As I've said before, by your logic, all restaurants should strive to be McDonald's, because they are the #1 selling restaurant in the world. See the problem with that?
... I'll take public quests ... i though they were a neat thing to do.
I do understand where you are coming from. I work 50+ hours a week, I hav family obligations. I'm one of the players who won't be able to play the way I used to play FFXI. My point is that all this is MY problem, MY issues, MY real life. If I choose to play a game that has greater rewards for those with more time, then its MY choice and in my opinion it is not MY place to ask that the game be changed to accomodate ME thereby infringing on the choices of others to play a game they CAN devote the time they want to. MY level of enjoyment is MY responsibility and If I'm that upset at being "left out" then I need to accept the fact that my life has changed and either deal with it or find a game that offers more for my situation.
Go Inaya! Couldnt have said it better myself.
I agree aswell
raystantzFinal Fantasy XI CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,237
Originally posted by ic0n67
Originally posted by Sixpax
Originally posted by raystantz
What is being asked is that ALL content be viable for ALL playstyles. And while folks are trying to tell me it isn't possible for it to be this way, Blizzard has proved that theory wrong 10 fold. If a company wants to maximize the number of subscribers to its product, it needs to try its best to make sure its accessible by as many people as possible. There is a reason why WoW is the #1 MMORPG on the planet.
I was with you until you went down this road. While that reasoning sounds logical, it's not. Mythic tried that with Warhammer and it failed because people didn't want another WoW style game, they wanted an improved DAoC style game. As I've said before, by your logic, all restaurants should strive to be McDonald's, because they are the #1 selling restaurant in the world. See the problem with that?
... I'll take public quests ... i though they were a neat thing to do.
I liked the public quests too myself.. I just wasn't a fan of the overrall concept. There certainly are players that were fans of it, and they continue to play it. They didn't include enough options for all types of players, and instead drastically cut their playerbase down by only catering to a specific type of gamer.
You can have PVP
You can have PVE
You can have group content
You can have solo content
You can have short content
You can have long content
and you can have them all in the same game, and you can give ALL players access to ALL of them. The choice should be "Do I want to participate" instead of "Do I have time?"
If it wasn't possible, there would be no argument.
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Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
As I've said before, by your logic, all restaurants should strive to be McDonald's, because they are the #1 selling restaurant in the world. See the problem with that?
This^^
OMG love this statement! Thanks! Going to use this one!
I'm not saying that SE should copy WoW. I'm saying that noone can refute the success of Blizzard by using the model they did. I don't care that Warhammer failed doing it, because they aren't Blizzard. WAR is not anything like WoW other than in looks. Its a niche game. It would have only ever appealed to "that type" of gamer, and it even failed in that aspect. What I am saying is that in the type of game that WoW offers.. Blizzard has maximized the effect in the best way it could. By making it accessible to all in every way. Warhammer is a pvp game, and unless you enjoy pvp.. you won't enjoy WAR, and like you said.. if you were looking for DAOC 2.. your not going to find it.
Actually, you're making my point for me. Mythic thought "ooh Blizzard does it this way, we'll do that and we'll be successful too"... They originally tried to make PvP all scenario (aka battleground) based and later (as an after-thought) added open RvR when the beta testers screamed bloody murder. Had they made open RvR the focus, things would surely have been done differently and people might have gotten what they were expecting Warhammer to be... but they didn't, so they left. It's the same with FFXIV... people are expecting some similarity to FFXI, or they aren't going to be happy.
Originally posted by raystantz
The reason why WoW has more subs that anyone else.. is because its accessible to all.
I think their success is based on a whole lot more factors than that... when they released, the market was ripe for a "next-gen" MMORPG since the old-style ones were showing their age, and people had more faith in Blizzard than EQ2 (which released about the same time). It catered to a younger crowd which has a higher population of gamers than older crowds. Non-MMORPG players were familiar with the Warcraft IP so it wasn't completely foreign to people who wanted to give it a try. All of this created a snowball effect. Of course attracting people was only part of the equation. The other part, which you refer to, was making the game accessible/appealing to a wide audience, and making sure they released new content frequently enough that people wouldn't burn out and leave... which obviously Blizzard had ample budget to do.
Originally posted by raystantz
The problem is, now Blizzard has changed directions and is making it "so" accessible.. that all the challenge that was there at release is gone, and it went from being accessible by everyone.. to be only accessible by those seeking a very easy game. Since, there is no content for anything but that type of player. It wasn't always that way.
I'm sure even if Blizzard released such content, people still wouldn't be happy enough to keep playing. I think it has more to do with WoW showing it's age and people are getting burned out. They just aren't content with repeated instance raiding and now they're looking for something new and better.
Originally posted by raystantz I liked the public quests too myself.. I just wasn't a fan of the overrall concept. There certainly are players that were fans of it, and they continue to play it. They didn't include enough options for all types of players, and instead drastically cut their playerbase down by only catering to a specific type of gamer.
Okay I just have to say one thing to your over all argument here. Yes if you could do everything then you could have everyone be happy, but the fact remains -- as you say -- you can't. Companies do target a certain niche of people when they put out a product. The example of McDs has come up and you said since they are the best everyone should be like them. That is not the case everyone needs to carve out their own identity in the market to make it is product different from one company to the next.
McDs does a little bit of everything quickly cheaply and btw the food is really bad (doesn't stop me from eatting it). That is their thing. They give you a variety at a low price, but the skimp on quality and service. Now take something like Taco Bell (niche: Mexican), KFC (niche: fried chicken), Pizza Hut (niche: pizza), Wedny's (niche: cheap $1 menu), Burger King (niche: flame broil/angus burgers) ... all these have their own specific thing that they do and they do it well where McDs has basically taken the niche of all of them and incorperated it into their business model (yes there is a McPizza), but if you want Tacos or a Barrito you don't go to McDs ... you go to Taco Bell. Even though you can get them their you will skip over McD because they are not know and do it is as well.
So now look at the MMO market. The games you have are basically set around IPs and not food. In WoW you also have the concept of warring factions. EQ/2 is the granddaddy of mmos ... and you can go on.
If you turn and make FFXI be completely soloable, but you could group if you wanted to you are going to increase your player base in theory because you are not closing off the group of people that have the social skills of a dung bettle and table topping is too social for them. So your subscription numbers go up. The problem with doing this is why group if you don't have to. In WoW you group to do one or two quest or to raid other than that grouping is optional, have you played wow (sorry I don't feel like reading to see if you have)? You can go for days upon days without anyone ever talking to you. The only time someone addressed me directly was a guild leader I had that wanted me to do a raid that was 20 levels higher than me so he could get an item. Because of the soloability of WoW there is no need so finding help or finding other that need a quest is a little difficult. Personally I have been invited to parties for no reason in WoW other than I'm standing in a spot. No one ever told me what was going on or even said Hi to me when i entered the party.
That is the kind of behavior you get when you make something soloable like WoW is ... that is what we don't want in FFXI or in FFXIV. We want that social aspect we want to talk to each other and chew the fat like linkshells do in this game. Be having grouping forced on you you are #1 forced into communicating with people #2 forced to work in unison #3 forced to become better player because you are put up in front of players that are better than you. The last part is something, if you suck as a player no one is going to want to party with you because you drag the party down, thus you have to force yourself to become a better player so people will continue to invite you.
Look, trust me I know it sucks LFP if i could just jump up and start playing that would be great (and btw I have goten a party invite before is said "Welcome to Asura" before ... be a good player). I only have a few hours a night to play if i even feel like it, it sucks when i have to spend half that time LFP, but, over all, if i have to sacrifice my social aspect for soloability the game can kiss my ass and I'll just go out to a bar and get laid instead.
The greater majority of the players that play this game like what it is and we want the good from FFXI to get into FFXIV. Would it be nice if I could kill some mobs while I am lfp yes most areas this isn't really feesible. Realize though the reason this is a problem which i said in my other post is because the player base isn't playing. There are less parties and so less jobs to fill. This isn't a problem with SE. I remember back in the very begining of not waiting more than a 30 minutes an hour tops for a party, hell even today I can usually get a party in under and hour. The job system actaully is very good for repeat people playing jobs in zones. This is a strenght of the system. If people want to do it they will do it. The reason for lower numbers in peopel leveling is either people are past the level and don't want to play again they just want to get to end game and get a shit load of items (not SEs fault), WoW came at just the right time and stole FFXI's thunder (not SEs fault), and the gil seller explosion happend which turned a lot of people away (could make argument that it is SEs fault, but more the player base for buy the gil and giving the business). Remember you are playing a game that in 7 years old now, it isn't like the game came out yesterday. The numbers that it has despite the bad things that have happened are amazing and that is a testimate to how good the game truely is the way it is.
Overall and I say this to everyone. If forced grouping isn't your thing then it isn't your thing and there are a lot of games you can play. One-Hundred Percent soloability, minimal social interaction, pvp ganking of noobs 50 levels below me, and gettting big shiney purple weapons isn't my thing ... which is why I don't play WoW (very often). It is what it is and it isn't SEs fault people are missing out on real life. Go read my other post on this thread, it is the player base that makes it that way.
Also, I don't know what you are doing wrong, I can get anywhere in this game that people party in under 10 minutes. Ten minutes isn't bad at all considering the size of the maps.
McDs does a little bit of everything quickly cheaply and btw the food is really bad (doesn't stop me from eatting it). That is their thing. They give you a variety at a low price, but the skimp on quality and service. Now take something like Taco Bell (niche: Mexican), KFC (niche: fried chicken), Pizza Hut (niche: pizza), Wedny's (niche: cheap $1 menu), Burger King (niche: flame broil/angus burgers) ... all these have their own specific thing that they do and they do it well where McDs has basically taken the niche of all of them and incorperated it into their business model (yes there is a McPizza), but if you want Tacos or a Barrito you don't go to McDs ... you go to Taco Bell. Even though you can get them their you will skip over McD because they are not know and do it is as well.
Playing an MMO that you don't have time to play or that doesn't suit your play style and demanding that it adapt to you is like standing in McDonalds demanding a Taco because McDonalds is closer than Taco Bell and why the hell should you have to drive farther when there is a McDonalds a block away. Its pointless and only angers the people at McDonalds. If you want tacos suck it up and go to Taco Bell. If you'd rather not drive as far, eat the burger and move on.
raystantzFinal Fantasy XI CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,237
Originally posted by Inaya
Originally posted by ic0n67
McDs does a little bit of everything quickly cheaply and btw the food is really bad (doesn't stop me from eatting it). That is their thing. They give you a variety at a low price, but the skimp on quality and service. Now take something like Taco Bell (niche: Mexican), KFC (niche: fried chicken), Pizza Hut (niche: pizza), Wedny's (niche: cheap $1 menu), Burger King (niche: flame broil/angus burgers) ... all these have their own specific thing that they do and they do it well where McDs has basically taken the niche of all of them and incorperated it into their business model (yes there is a McPizza), but if you want Tacos or a Barrito you don't go to McDs ... you go to Taco Bell. Even though you can get them their you will skip over McD because they are not know and do it is as well.
Playing an MMO that you don't have time to play or that doesn't suit your play style and demanding that it adapt to you is like standing in McDonalds demanding a Taco because McDonalds is closer than Taco Bell and why the hell should you have to drive farther when there is a McDonalds a block away. Its pointless and only angers the people at McDonalds. If you want tacos suck it up and go to Taco Bell. If you'd rather not drive as far, eat the burger and move on.
If I wanted a "great" taco, I wouldn't go to taco bell in the first place.
If I had a car full of people who all wanted something different, we'd compromise by going to the place with the biggest variety and the best prices.
See, we can spin this scenario all over the place.
Basically, we have come to the understanding that the reason I don't play FFXI currently is because I don't have time to sit at my pc for 8 hrs in one sitting, and I won't ever have that kind of time. I wished the world wasn't such a screwed up place, where stuff like this is considered normal.
we don't have 12 hr long movies do we?
we don't knowingly eat roaches at restaurants do we?
noone knows what "normal" is anymore.
I thought I was normal, but apparently the guy who sits at his pc with his bag of cheetos and monster energy drink for 12 hrs is normal..
The problem with the food scenario.. is that not everyone likes tacos, not everyone likes burgers, and not everyone likes steaks. So, you could open a taco stand.. but you'd only ever have people who like tacos.
If you want to open your doors for more than just one type of person, your going to have to compromise other parts of your product in order to make that a reality.
In order to serve tacos, burgers, and steak.. you will have to sacrifice some quality.
But, honestly.... my original argument still stands.
Who in the world WANTS to sit at a pc for that damn long? See a doctor.
At the end of the day it still amounts to no lifers wanting to have some sort of glorified achievement award for the time they've spent, instead of just having fun with a game as intended. If they didn't have that attitude I don't think we'd even be having this discussion. And, if the hardcore players really "don"t like spending all that time grinding, and sitting at the pc.. why do you do it anyway? MMORPG's should be fun social interactive experiences, that get you away from real life for a little while.. not a REPLACEMENT for it. Noone should live on a game. I agree with some of you guys points for sure, but I still think there is room to have a "standard" for all mmo gamers. think of it as like levels.. mostly all mmos have a level cap thats around the same range.... "time constraints" on content should be the same.
nothing in any game or MMO should take longer than 3-4 hrs in one sitting, and if for some reason it does. You should be able to break it up into different sessions. I don't see whats hard to understand or get about that. It doesn't change the game in anyway, for anyone. whats not to like?
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Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
If I wanted a "great" taco, I wouldn't go to taco bell in the first place. If I had a car full of people who all wanted something different, we'd compromise by going to the place with the biggest variety and the best prices. See, we can spin this scenario all over the place. Basically, we have come to the understanding that the reason I don't play FFXI currently is because I don't have time to sit at my pc for 8 hrs in one sitting, and I won't ever have that kind of time. I wished the world wasn't such a screwed up place, where stuff like this is considered normal. we don't have 12 hr long movies do we? we don't knowingly eat roaches at restaurants do we? noone knows what "normal" is anymore. I thought I was normal, but apparently the guy who sits at his pc with his bag of cheetos and monster energy drink for 12 hrs is normal.. The problem with the food scenario.. is that not everyone likes tacos, not everyone likes burgers, and not everyone likes steaks. So, you could open a taco stand.. but you'd only ever have people who like tacos. If you want to open your doors for more than just one type of person, your going to have to compromise other parts of your product in order to make that a reality. In order to serve tacos, burgers, and steak.. you will have to sacrifice some quality. But, honestly.... my original argument still stands.
Who in the world WANTS to sit at a pc for that damn long? See a doctor.
At the end of the day it still amounts to no lifers wanting to have some sort of glorified achievement award for the time they've spent, instead of just having fun with a game as intended. If they didn't have that attitude I don't think we'd even be having this discussion. And, if the hardcore players really "don"t like spending all that time grinding, and sitting at the pc.. why do you do it anyway? MMORPG's should be fun social interactive experiences, that get you away from real life for a little while.. not a REPLACEMENT for it. Noone should live on a game. I agree with some of you guys points for sure, but I still think there is room to have a "standard" for all mmo gamers. think of it as like levels.. mostly all mmos have a level cap thats around the same range.... "time constraints" on content should be the same. nothing in any game or MMO should take longer than 3-4 hrs in one sitting, and if for some reason it does. You should be able to break it up into different sessions. I don't see whats hard to understand or get about that. It doesn't change the game in anyway, for anyone. whats not to like?
There's no point in trying to make them understand. We will just have to wait and see what they do with FFXIV.
"SE: As with World of Warcraft and how they have aimed for the casual users, we do want to put some of that in FFXIV as well - aiming for those more casual users. We don't, however, want to make a copy of World of Warcraft, and we're going to have things that we believe are unique, and will make us stand out from that game."
I can live with that.
It'll be intresting to see how they pull it off though.
raystantzFinal Fantasy XI CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,237
Originally posted by Omrie
Originally posted by raystantz
If I wanted a "great" taco, I wouldn't go to taco bell in the first place. If I had a car full of people who all wanted something different, we'd compromise by going to the place with the biggest variety and the best prices. See, we can spin this scenario all over the place. Basically, we have come to the understanding that the reason I don't play FFXI currently is because I don't have time to sit at my pc for 8 hrs in one sitting, and I won't ever have that kind of time. I wished the world wasn't such a screwed up place, where stuff like this is considered normal. we don't have 12 hr long movies do we? we don't knowingly eat roaches at restaurants do we? noone knows what "normal" is anymore. I thought I was normal, but apparently the guy who sits at his pc with his bag of cheetos and monster energy drink for 12 hrs is normal.. The problem with the food scenario.. is that not everyone likes tacos, not everyone likes burgers, and not everyone likes steaks. So, you could open a taco stand.. but you'd only ever have people who like tacos. If you want to open your doors for more than just one type of person, your going to have to compromise other parts of your product in order to make that a reality. In order to serve tacos, burgers, and steak.. you will have to sacrifice some quality. But, honestly.... my original argument still stands.
Who in the world WANTS to sit at a pc for that damn long? See a doctor.
At the end of the day it still amounts to no lifers wanting to have some sort of glorified achievement award for the time they've spent, instead of just having fun with a game as intended. If they didn't have that attitude I don't think we'd even be having this discussion. And, if the hardcore players really "don"t like spending all that time grinding, and sitting at the pc.. why do you do it anyway? MMORPG's should be fun social interactive experiences, that get you away from real life for a little while.. not a REPLACEMENT for it. Noone should live on a game. I agree with some of you guys points for sure, but I still think there is room to have a "standard" for all mmo gamers. think of it as like levels.. mostly all mmos have a level cap thats around the same range.... "time constraints" on content should be the same. nothing in any game or MMO should take longer than 3-4 hrs in one sitting, and if for some reason it does. You should be able to break it up into different sessions. I don't see whats hard to understand or get about that. It doesn't change the game in anyway, for anyone. whats not to like?
There's no point in trying to make them understand. We will just have to wait and see what they do with FFXIV.
"SE: As with World of Warcraft and how they have aimed for the casual users, we do want to put some of that in FFXIV as well - aiming for those more casual users. We don't, however, want to make a copy of World of Warcraft, and we're going to have things that we believe are unique, and will make us stand out from that game."
I can live with that.
It'll be intresting to see how they pull it off though.
At least SE understands the idea. And supports it.
www.facebook.com/themarksmovierules
Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
Example.... i do not sit in front of a mercedes car lot complaining they should change their prices to meet my demands.
example....i do not complain the high class restaurant ,should serve burgers because that meets my demand for food.
example..i do not complain to my boss that he should change his hours to meet my demands
It goes on and on,the point is VERY simple,you "HAVE" choice,if the choice does not meet your play time/criteria,then pick something that does,it is very simple.
The other VERY obvious point is that ,NOBODY on this entire earth ,could possibly expect a developer to change their game design to meet the wants of every gamer on this planet !They make a decision on their game,they go with it,then it is again the peoples "CHOICE" weather to play it or not.
The Genre DOES need several different choices,we do not need EVERY MMORPG to become a single player game,as many including myself ,do enjoy the MMORPG as well as sinlge player games on occasion.Some people like PVP,some like PVE,we need these choices,that SHOULD be VERY obvious.If a game does not meet someone's criteria that is fine,nobody forces them or us to play the game.If someone wants to spend 6 hours a day on a game,then they have that choice,if someone wants to play 2 hours a night,then again they can go out and find that game,nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head.
The conclusion is that their "IS" choices,people should quit trying to take away those choices by asking for ONE game that meets their selfish demands.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
raystantzFinal Fantasy XI CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,237
Originally posted by Wizardry
Here is the shimmy that many seem to not realize. Example.... i do not sit in front of a mercedes car lot complaining they should change their prices to meet my demands. example....i do not complain the high class restaurant ,should serve burgers because that meets my demand for food. example..i do not complain to my boss that he should change his hours to meet my demands It goes on and on,the point is VERY simple,you "HAVE" choice,if the choice does not meet your play time/criteria,then pick something that does,it is very simple. The other VERY obvious point is that ,NOBODY on this entire earth ,could possibly expect a developer to change their game design to meet the wants of every gamer on this planet !They make a decision on their game,they go with it,then it is again the peoples "CHOICE" weather to play it or not. The Genre DOES need several different choices,we do not need EVERY MMORPG to become a single player game,as many including myself ,do enjoy the MMORPG as well as sinlge player games on occasion.Some people like PVP,some like PVE,we need these choices,that SHOULD be VERY obvious.If a game does not meet someone's criteria that is fine,nobody forces them or us to play the game.If someone wants to spend 6 hours a day on a game,then they have that choice,if someone wants to play 2 hours a night,then again they can go out and find that game,nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head. The conclusion is that their "IS" choices,people should quit trying to take away those choices by asking for ONE game that meets their selfish demands.
yep, and unfortunately.. everyone including those who do sit in front of their pcs for 12 hrs are selfish, by thinking I should have to do the same thing.
Its a never ending circle. Its simple to fix really.
www.facebook.com/themarksmovierules
Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
According to this snip from the E3 2009 press conference, they realize these things:
Q: What would you like to emphasize with this game? What is different from FFXI?
A: For FFXIV, the keyword that we've been using is "The Growth and Development of the Character." We will have the same type of storytelling and high-quality graphics. We also want to expand and create new in-game systems. The player can grow and develop in a more natural way without putting too much weight on the player. We will expand the job system to make it fairly different from the one in FFXI.
A: Another very important concept that takes a different direction from FFXI, is that for FFXIV we want to make it so the player can choose to play solo, in a party, 40 minutes, all-day... there will be content for ALL of those play styles and systems for all of those play styles.
Don't know which one said it, but it was either the director or producer of the game.
According to this snip from the E3 2009 press conference, they realize these things: Q: What would you like to emphasize with this game? What is different from FFXI? A: For FFXIV, the keyword that we've been using is "The Growth and Development of the Character." We will have the same type of storytelling and high-quality graphics. We also want to expand and create new in-game systems. The player can grow and develop in a more natural way without putting too much weight on the player. We will expand the job system to make it fairly different from the one in FFXI.
A: Another very important concept that takes a different direction from FFXI, is that for FFXIV we want to make it so the player can choose to play solo, in a party, 40 minutes, all-day... there will be content for ALL of those play styles and systems for all of those play styles.
Don't know which one said it, but it was either the director or producer of the game.
Here is the shimmy that many seem to not realize. Example.... i do not sit in front of a mercedes car lot complaining they should change their prices to meet my demands. example....i do not complain the high class restaurant ,should serve burgers because that meets my demand for food. example..i do not complain to my boss that he should change his hours to meet my demands It goes on and on,the point is VERY simple,you "HAVE" choice,if the choice does not meet your play time/criteria,then pick something that does,it is very simple. The other VERY obvious point is that ,NOBODY on this entire earth ,could possibly expect a developer to change their game design to meet the wants of every gamer on this planet !They make a decision on their game,they go with it,then it is again the peoples "CHOICE" weather to play it or not. The Genre DOES need several different choices,we do not need EVERY MMORPG to become a single player game,as many including myself ,do enjoy the MMORPG as well as sinlge player games on occasion.Some people like PVP,some like PVE,we need these choices,that SHOULD be VERY obvious.If a game does not meet someone's criteria that is fine,nobody forces them or us to play the game.If someone wants to spend 6 hours a day on a game,then they have that choice,if someone wants to play 2 hours a night,then again they can go out and find that game,nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head. The conclusion is that their "IS" choices,people should quit trying to take away those choices by asking for ONE game that meets their selfish demands.
yep, and unfortunately.. everyone including those who do sit in front of their pcs for 12 hrs are selfish, by thinking I should have to do the same thing.
Its a never ending circle. Its simple to fix really.
Actually, I have logged less hours in front of my pc in the last several months than you have if you can still muster 3 hour sessions to play. I defend the opposition of your opinion not because I am in it, but because your wrong.
Even in irl, at a job, its the same. If I stay at work longer to get thing done when it is volunteer, and you decide to go to the movies with your wife and kids, there is a good chance I will move upwards and obtain a better position with higher pay+benefits. If temperment of knowledge and worth ethic in general is the same, but i can choose to put in more time, I AM superior to you at the workplace. With a mmorpg, someone might only work a 40 hour a week job, and have it unfortunately set at a 2nd shift or graveyard shift hours. Often, during the week, they have nothing to do.
It comes down to choices. Your not entitled to feeling accomplished nor equal in a game. It is a game. One might think that your trying to pull from a game what you cannot in real life, equality. Well, in the fantasy world, you still might be considered less of a essential factor. If you want to do those 6 hour sessions, then one DAY out of the month, set aside 6 hours. If its that damn important to you, then do it. If your kids are having LOADS of fun with you, you dont stand up and say "well my 3 hours is up with you, its how our game of baseball is designed" and walk away. You often decide, screw it, I am going to let this thing go for tonight and keep having fun cause this dosent happen EVERY NIGHT. That and we all know plenty of events irl can take 2 hours, or 6 hours. That is why many change rules to make it longer. Cause its a long session of fun. If you cant hang, then dont worry about it and let them have they're fun. Your fun does not constitute limitations on their fun.
A video game isnt the place that you get the things you cant get irl. Your not, nor ever will be, equal to everyone. It should matter. You should be happy with the fun you get yourself. People who play 2 hours every few days a week I have seen complain and think they deserve less then you. They go in, play, have fun, and dont worry about "what they cant have".
Heres a time syncs that drives me nuts. Trying to skill up Goldsmith. I go buy ore(bad enough they dont stack) and i get a chat log full of, Please wait longer to make another purchase. Why do i have to sit there and count to 10 in my head just to buy another one. Then theres the delay with killing a monster, then moving onto another one with the line, You must wait longer to perform that action. Whats up with all these delays? Theres more delays ,but you guys see my point. This is the only game i play that have these delays.
raystantzFinal Fantasy XI CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,237
Originally posted by Creasian
Originally posted by raystantz
Originally posted by Wizardry
Here is the shimmy that many seem to not realize. Example.... i do not sit in front of a mercedes car lot complaining they should change their prices to meet my demands. example....i do not complain the high class restaurant ,should serve burgers because that meets my demand for food. example..i do not complain to my boss that he should change his hours to meet my demands It goes on and on,the point is VERY simple,you "HAVE" choice,if the choice does not meet your play time/criteria,then pick something that does,it is very simple. The other VERY obvious point is that ,NOBODY on this entire earth ,could possibly expect a developer to change their game design to meet the wants of every gamer on this planet !They make a decision on their game,they go with it,then it is again the peoples "CHOICE" weather to play it or not. The Genre DOES need several different choices,we do not need EVERY MMORPG to become a single player game,as many including myself ,do enjoy the MMORPG as well as sinlge player games on occasion.Some people like PVP,some like PVE,we need these choices,that SHOULD be VERY obvious.If a game does not meet someone's criteria that is fine,nobody forces them or us to play the game.If someone wants to spend 6 hours a day on a game,then they have that choice,if someone wants to play 2 hours a night,then again they can go out and find that game,nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head. The conclusion is that their "IS" choices,people should quit trying to take away those choices by asking for ONE game that meets their selfish demands.
yep, and unfortunately.. everyone including those who do sit in front of their pcs for 12 hrs are selfish, by thinking I should have to do the same thing.
Its a never ending circle. Its simple to fix really.
Actually, I have logged less hours in front of my pc in the last several months than you have if you can still muster 3 hour sessions to play. I defend the opposition of your opinion not because I am in it, but because your wrong.
Even in irl, at a job, its the same. If I stay at work longer to get thing done when it is volunteer, and you decide to go to the movies with your wife and kids, there is a good chance I will move upwards and obtain a better position with higher pay+benefits. If temperment of knowledge and worth ethic in general is the same, but i can choose to put in more time, I AM superior to you at the workplace. With a mmorpg, someone might only work a 40 hour a week job, and have it unfortunately set at a 2nd shift or graveyard shift hours. Often, during the week, they have nothing to do.
It comes down to choices. Your not entitled to feeling accomplished nor equal in a game. It is a game. One might think that your trying to pull from a game what you cannot in real life, equality. Well, in the fantasy world, you still might be considered less of a essential factor. If you want to do those 6 hour sessions, then one DAY out of the month, set aside 6 hours. If its that damn important to you, then do it. If your kids are having LOADS of fun with you, you dont stand up and say "well my 3 hours is up with you, its how our game of baseball is designed" and walk away. You often decide, screw it, I am going to let this thing go for tonight and keep having fun cause this dosent happen EVERY NIGHT. That and we all know plenty of events irl can take 2 hours, or 6 hours. That is why many change rules to make it longer. Cause its a long session of fun. If you cant hang, then dont worry about it and let them have they're fun. Your fun does not constitute limitations on their fun.
A video game isnt the place that you get the things you cant get irl. Your not, nor ever will be, equal to everyone. It should matter. You should be happy with the fun you get yourself. People who play 2 hours every few days a week I have seen complain and think they deserve less then you. They go in, play, have fun, and dont worry about "what they cant have".
Its a game..
no need for those time sinks.
If thats the case, they should add 2 hr blocks in the middle of movies with just a black screen.. and make you sit there through it, order to get to the other part of the movie.
I'm not talking about when its so fun you happen to stay around for the extra time. I'm saying when events are created that automatically exhaust more time than the average player has. 6-8 hrs is not average I don't care how you "spin" it. You can't change it for everyone, but you can make most people happy by not putting in garbage that doesn't do anything other than make things take longer.
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Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
If you want to play for 8 hrs in one sitting.. noone is stopping you from doing that. However, there shouldn't be anything in a game that takes that long at one time. There should be NOTHING in the game that requires that much time in one sitting.
I'm playing FFXI since day 1 its US PC launch. I have never had to spend 8 hours in a row at my computer doing 1 thing. I haven't even *had* to do that for 5 hours. The longest anything has taken me was doing one of my job quests (SAM) back when all us Western players were still noobs.. We had to switch out players 3 or 4 times and then find replacements. In all, it took us 4 hours to kill all the mobs, turn in the items, etc. And even then, I stuck around for that 4 hours because I chose to. I could have left and finished it another time if I wanted. But, I was part of a group who was trying to get that job unlocked and I'd have felt like a dick for leaving when I really didn't have to. So I stuck around 'til we were done.
If I've spent 8 hours in one sitting (and I have back when I first played; not so much lately) it was filled with a variety of activities - questing, xp'ing, etc.
So, while I might play for 3-4 hrs and only get 1 event done. You can stay on and play for 8 hrs and get 2-3 events done, since your on longer. It doesn't make you superior to me, just means you stayed on playing longer. I will eventually get the same stuff completed, just split up in segments.
That's kinda how it works in FFXI. More time spent = more accomplished. I've helped someone through all of Rank 4, switched jobs and did Promyvions in a single sitting. That's quite a lot in one setting. Broken down, that's 6 individual activities. If I'd spent less time in that sitting, I might only have completed the Rank 4 missions... and that would have been fine.
I've also logged on for a couple hours completed one of my Genkai quests and then went off and did some xp'ing.
On that note, anyone who would feel "superior" for having more time to play than someone else is an idiot.
By purposely making travel times tedious, with no obvious reasons for them being that way.. it automatically tacks on the time it takes to complete things without actually adding any challenge.
There are ways around that... Outpost warps can be "unlocked" and result in very fast travel. The 6 warp crystals also provide a quick way around if a WHM is present. BLM's with Warp II. You have to put the time in to get those things - but then that's how SE is in FFXI... anything worthwhile to your character must be earned and can take time. I think it's best that way. That said, I can't remember the last time it took me even 20 minutes to get to a given location, no matter how remote, nevermind 45.
There are easy ways to make this happen.. someone just has to stop being an idiot and do it.
Sure... SE can meet players part way to make things a bit less tedious or time-consuming, and I do agree that there are a number of pointless time-sinks in the game. For example, having to wait 'til after JP midnight to complete a quest... No point in that at all many times. To be fair, sometimes it does help the integrity of a story; like, you wouldn't expect someone to craft a perfect Great Katana while you stand there waiting, so having to wait does make sense in that case. But other times it's pointless.
That said, at some point, the individual has to decide whether the way the game is designed is suitable to their playstyle or time constraints. If it isn't and you wouldn't be able to do what you'd like to in a given session, then perhaps the best decision is not to play. Blaming the developer for not designing the game to cater to one's individual playstyle, time-constraints, etc... and asking them to change it so it does is not only unreasonable, it's selfish.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I think I can pretty much agree with you here raystantz
I totally agree that things should be cut down into sections so that people who can't play 8 hours straight can complete it. i.e. have something akin to checkpoints every couple of hours where you can leave and come back later if you have to get off the game for whatever real life obligation.
Also, they could definitely cut down on how long it takes to get groups together and certain aspects of travel and maybe add some more travel points to select locations on the map (not too many though, we don't want to make it toooo easy ). Also, adding more stuff to do while LFG would be awesome, including something to do for smaller amounts of xp to be completed solo while LFG.
As for the WoW comparisons, I think we can do without haha. I don't think FFXI should try to mimic WoW "accessibility" because what does that term even really mean? Because if you're talking about copying gameplay mechanics such as quest grinding and every dungeon being instanced and zero death penalty, no thanks. I'm just not sure the WoW analogy really makes a good point for accessibility as far as cutting down LFG times and checkpoints in endgame content is concerned (maybe I missed something? if so, please explain to me!).
Edit: I guess they have the outpost warps for travel although when I played, which was awhile ago I never used them and/or they may have not existed (at least not within the confines of MY mind. haha they may have been there and I just didn't know about them).
raystantzFinal Fantasy XI CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,237
thats mainly due to the learning curve. I don't think they actually mention the outpost warps, you just have to stumble upon that npc. On my first toon in FFXI I didn't know anything about them until I was mid 30s. Even still, a way to get people to a leveling spot instantly, provided they have made the trek on foot there once.. would make life much easier, when waiting on people.
Everytime I ever tried to group, I wasted at least 30 minutes to anywhere to an hr or more. By the time I actually got to the party spot, half my playtime was over.
your mileage may vary in FFXI..
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Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
McDs does a little bit of everything quickly cheaply and btw the food is really bad (doesn't stop me from eatting it). That is their thing. They give you a variety at a low price, but the skimp on quality and service. Now take something like Taco Bell (niche: Mexican), KFC (niche: fried chicken), Pizza Hut (niche: pizza), Wedny's (niche: cheap $1 menu), Burger King (niche: flame broil/angus burgers) ... all these have their own specific thing that they do and they do it well where McDs has basically taken the niche of all of them and incorperated it into their business model (yes there is a McPizza), but if you want Tacos or a Barrito you don't go to McDs ... you go to Taco Bell. Even though you can get them their you will skip over McD because they are not know and do it is as well.
Playing an MMO that you don't have time to play or that doesn't suit your play style and demanding that it adapt to you is like standing in McDonalds demanding a Taco because McDonalds is closer than Taco Bell and why the hell should you have to drive farther when there is a McDonalds a block away. Its pointless and only angers the people at McDonalds. If you want tacos suck it up and go to Taco Bell. If you'd rather not drive as far, eat the burger and move on.
If I wanted a "great" taco, I wouldn't go to taco bell in the first place.
If I had a car full of people who all wanted something different, we'd compromise by going to the place with the biggest variety and the best prices.
See, we can spin this scenario all over the place.
Basically, we have come to the understanding that the reason I don't play FFXI currently is because I don't have time to sit at my pc for 8 hrs in one sitting, and I won't ever have that kind of time. I wished the world wasn't such a screwed up place, where stuff like this is considered normal.
we don't have 12 hr long movies do we?
we don't knowingly eat roaches at restaurants do we?
noone knows what "normal" is anymore.
I thought I was normal, but apparently the guy who sits at his pc with his bag of cheetos and monster energy drink for 12 hrs is normal..
The problem with the food scenario.. is that not everyone likes tacos, not everyone likes burgers, and not everyone likes steaks. So, you could open a taco stand.. but you'd only ever have people who like tacos.
If you want to open your doors for more than just one type of person, your going to have to compromise other parts of your product in order to make that a reality.
In order to serve tacos, burgers, and steak.. you will have to sacrifice some quality.
But, honestly.... my original argument still stands.
Who in the world WANTS to sit at a pc for that damn long? See a doctor.
At the end of the day it still amounts to no lifers wanting to have some sort of glorified achievement award for the time they've spent, instead of just having fun with a game as intended. If they didn't have that attitude I don't think we'd even be having this discussion. And, if the hardcore players really "don"t like spending all that time grinding, and sitting at the pc.. why do you do it anyway? MMORPG's should be fun social interactive experiences, that get you away from real life for a little while.. not a REPLACEMENT for it. Noone should live on a game. I agree with some of you guys points for sure, but I still think there is room to have a "standard" for all mmo gamers. think of it as like levels.. mostly all mmos have a level cap thats around the same range.... "time constraints" on content should be the same.
nothing in any game or MMO should take longer than 3-4 hrs in one sitting, and if for some reason it does. You should be able to break it up into different sessions. I don't see whats hard to understand or get about that. It doesn't change the game in anyway, for anyone. whats not to like?
You are being stubborn and argumentative at this point. Not to mention you you are taking analogies literally (I don't give a shit where you get your Tacos from). I'll put this as plainly as possible. This game is for people who can sit longer than 3-4 hours and enjoy doing it. Just because you think that this is wrong doesn't make it wrong. If you don't fit in that group then this game is not for you and please look elsewhere to find a game you are going to enjoy. I hate to try another analogy, but if you don't like RPGs and you like FPSs then don't bitch out the RPG because it isn't want you want to play go play the FPS you already like. There is nothing wrong with the game that tailors itself to a specific group. There is nothing wrong with a specific group that allies itself with a particular game that fits the play that they like.
SE has stated that this new game is going to be more turned towards the casual side of gaming compared to what FFXI is today thus your entire argument against the idea of the hardcore predicessor is freaking MOOT. Just sit back, crack open a Coors, enjoy life for the next few months until this game comes out. Seriously.
raystantzFinal Fantasy XI CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,237
Originally posted by ic0n67
Originally posted by raystantz
Originally posted by Inaya
Originally posted by ic0n67
McDs does a little bit of everything quickly cheaply and btw the food is really bad (doesn't stop me from eatting it). That is their thing. They give you a variety at a low price, but the skimp on quality and service. Now take something like Taco Bell (niche: Mexican), KFC (niche: fried chicken), Pizza Hut (niche: pizza), Wedny's (niche: cheap $1 menu), Burger King (niche: flame broil/angus burgers) ... all these have their own specific thing that they do and they do it well where McDs has basically taken the niche of all of them and incorperated it into their business model (yes there is a McPizza), but if you want Tacos or a Barrito you don't go to McDs ... you go to Taco Bell. Even though you can get them their you will skip over McD because they are not know and do it is as well.
Playing an MMO that you don't have time to play or that doesn't suit your play style and demanding that it adapt to you is like standing in McDonalds demanding a Taco because McDonalds is closer than Taco Bell and why the hell should you have to drive farther when there is a McDonalds a block away. Its pointless and only angers the people at McDonalds. If you want tacos suck it up and go to Taco Bell. If you'd rather not drive as far, eat the burger and move on.
If I wanted a "great" taco, I wouldn't go to taco bell in the first place.
If I had a car full of people who all wanted something different, we'd compromise by going to the place with the biggest variety and the best prices.
See, we can spin this scenario all over the place.
Basically, we have come to the understanding that the reason I don't play FFXI currently is because I don't have time to sit at my pc for 8 hrs in one sitting, and I won't ever have that kind of time. I wished the world wasn't such a screwed up place, where stuff like this is considered normal.
we don't have 12 hr long movies do we?
we don't knowingly eat roaches at restaurants do we?
noone knows what "normal" is anymore.
I thought I was normal, but apparently the guy who sits at his pc with his bag of cheetos and monster energy drink for 12 hrs is normal..
The problem with the food scenario.. is that not everyone likes tacos, not everyone likes burgers, and not everyone likes steaks. So, you could open a taco stand.. but you'd only ever have people who like tacos.
If you want to open your doors for more than just one type of person, your going to have to compromise other parts of your product in order to make that a reality.
In order to serve tacos, burgers, and steak.. you will have to sacrifice some quality.
But, honestly.... my original argument still stands.
Who in the world WANTS to sit at a pc for that damn long? See a doctor.
At the end of the day it still amounts to no lifers wanting to have some sort of glorified achievement award for the time they've spent, instead of just having fun with a game as intended. If they didn't have that attitude I don't think we'd even be having this discussion. And, if the hardcore players really "don"t like spending all that time grinding, and sitting at the pc.. why do you do it anyway? MMORPG's should be fun social interactive experiences, that get you away from real life for a little while.. not a REPLACEMENT for it. Noone should live on a game. I agree with some of you guys points for sure, but I still think there is room to have a "standard" for all mmo gamers. think of it as like levels.. mostly all mmos have a level cap thats around the same range.... "time constraints" on content should be the same.
nothing in any game or MMO should take longer than 3-4 hrs in one sitting, and if for some reason it does. You should be able to break it up into different sessions. I don't see whats hard to understand or get about that. It doesn't change the game in anyway, for anyone. whats not to like?
You are being stubborn and argumentative at this point. Not to mention you you are taking analogies literally (I don't give a shit where you get your Tacos from). I'll put this as plainly as possible. This game is for people who can sit longer than 3-4 hours and enjoy doing it. Just because you think that this is wrong doesn't make it wrong. If you don't fit in that group then this game is not for you and please look elsewhere to find a game you are going to enjoy. I hate to try another analogy, but if you don't like RPGs and you like FPSs then don't bitch out the RPG because it isn't want you want to play go play the FPS you already like. There is nothing wrong with the game that tailors itself to a specific group. There is nothing wrong with a specific group that allies itself with a particular game that fits the play that they like.
SE has stated that this new game is going to be more turned towards the casual side of gaming compared to what FFXI is today thus your entire argument against the idea of the hardcore predicessor is freaking MOOT. Just sit back, crack open a Coors, enjoy life for the next few months until this game comes out. Seriously.
But discussing games and getting people all antsy about them is so much more fun.
I enjoy rpgs immensely, and pretty much hate FPS games entirely.
www.facebook.com/themarksmovierules
Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
Its a game.. no need for those time sinks. If thats the case, they should add 2 hr blocks in the middle of movies with just a black screen.. and make you sit there through it, order to get to the other part of the movie. I'm not talking about when its so fun you happen to stay around for the extra time. I'm saying when events are created that automatically exhaust more time than the average player has. 6-8 hrs is not average I don't care how you "spin" it. You can't change it for everyone, but you can make most people happy by not putting in garbage that doesn't do anything other than make things take longer.
However, we can also see the number of events that do take that long are not nearly as plentiful as the ones that take much less time. If everything took 6-8 hours to complete, i might agree with you. Course, still, I remember my EQ days. I had more time then, but i couldnt do 6-8 hours a day everyday by any stretch. I remember how long it took me to get the campable stuff for my mage epic, because i had to hope to god it dropped in my short timespan of play. It took a heck of a long time compared to others, but i still did it. You know how? Every once in awhile, I did spend that 6 or 8 hours on the game. Maybe a sunday every 3 weeks. It wasnt a issue. I just felt it was worth the fun, and i did it. Heck, I've done so many "real life" things that took much longer, cause it was designed that way.
I mean playing paintball tourneys on a 600+ acre farm. Sure, we could have made it so much faster, not a all day thing, by just driving out trucks out there. The guys who held it didnt need to "design" the rules so it took so damn long to do a good game. But you know, it was more fun, since it wasnt something you had to do every weekend, but maybe once every month or two, because it WAS demanding more. Everyone thought so as well. We are talking about people who work so damn much, and do everything they can to raise their families and be there, that they dont have alot of time.
I am not spinning it. I am saying if a game is designed even for everything to take 6-8 hours, then they will still have hardcores and casuals. Look at wow, and the old raids. Remember EQ? I see your little "resume" of past mmorpgs. So I know you do. If this game made by SE has 10% of content you cant do less you can put in 6 hour run every once in awhile, but the other 90% can be done in easy and under 3 hour sprints, then you should be satisfied or look elsewhere.
Artificial timesinks are how they push down unbridled consumption of content. It's a valid, promoted, taught, and essential aspect in game development for mmorpgs. What takes 6 hours will take maybe 2-3 in the next expansion. So eventually you will get to do it on your "own" terms anyhow. Like you want. Just not as SOON as you want. Isnt that the issue? You say it is unneeded timesinks, but I think it's "i want it my way, faster".
McDs does a little bit of everything quickly cheaply and btw the food is really bad (doesn't stop me from eatting it). That is their thing. They give you a variety at a low price, but the skimp on quality and service. Now take something like Taco Bell (niche: Mexican), KFC (niche: fried chicken), Pizza Hut (niche: pizza), Wedny's (niche: cheap $1 menu), Burger King (niche: flame broil/angus burgers) ... all these have their own specific thing that they do and they do it well where McDs has basically taken the niche of all of them and incorperated it into their business model (yes there is a McPizza), but if you want Tacos or a Barrito you don't go to McDs ... you go to Taco Bell. Even though you can get them their you will skip over McD because they are not know and do it is as well.
Playing an MMO that you don't have time to play or that doesn't suit your play style and demanding that it adapt to you is like standing in McDonalds demanding a Taco because McDonalds is closer than Taco Bell and why the hell should you have to drive farther when there is a McDonalds a block away. Its pointless and only angers the people at McDonalds. If you want tacos suck it up and go to Taco Bell. If you'd rather not drive as far, eat the burger and move on.
If I wanted a "great" taco, I wouldn't go to taco bell in the first place.
Oh, but with your argument you should go into Taco Bell and demand that they prepare the exact type of taco you want.
If I had a car full of people who all wanted something different, we'd compromise by going to the place with the biggest variety and the best prices.
No, you don't want compromise.
See, we can spin this scenario all over the place.
Basically, we have come to the understanding that the reason I don't play FFXI currently is because I don't have time to sit at my pc for 8 hrs in one sitting, and I won't ever have that kind of time. I wished the world wasn't such a screwed up place, where stuff like this is considered normal.
No one is telling you to sit at your PC for 8 hrs in one sitting and there really is no reason for you to have to do so.
we don't have 12 hr long movies do we?
Can you say mini-series?
we don't knowingly eat roaches at restaurants do we?
This has nothing to do with this subject.
noone knows what "normal" is anymore.
What is normal has been in debate and question for centuries.
I thought I was normal, but apparently the guy who sits at his pc with his bag of cheetos and monster energy drink for 12 hrs is normal..
Where do you get this picture of people who accomplish things in MMO's? Countless people have told you they have accomplished lots of things without the kind of time you seem to insist they invested.
The problem with the food scenario.. is that not everyone likes tacos, not everyone likes burgers, and not everyone likes steaks. So, you could open a taco stand.. but you'd only ever have people who like tacos.
And your point is what?
If you want to open your doors for more than just one type of person, your going to have to compromise other parts of your product in order to make that a reality.
In order to serve tacos, burgers, and steak.. you will have to sacrifice some quality.
No, you want to sacrifice quality to get exactly what you want. What some of us are saying is that we don't want to sacrifice quality. We don't expect a game to make compromises, to adapt to us. We understand that we are not entitled to everything we want, when we want it.
But, honestly.... my original argument still stands.
No, it really doesn't. While lots of posters have agreed with some of what you've said and acknowledged that they understand what you are trying to say, the fact that they disagree with you seems to be preventing you from even trying to understand the other point of view.
Who in the world WANTS to sit at a pc for that damn long? See a doctor.
At the end of the day it still amounts to no lifers wanting to have some sort of glorified achievement award for the time they've spent, instead of just having fun with a game as intended. If they didn't have that attitude I don't think we'd even be having this discussion. And, if the hardcore players really "don"t like spending all that time grinding, and sitting at the pc.. why do you do it anyway? MMORPG's should be fun social interactive experiences, that get you away from real life for a little while.. not a REPLACEMENT for it. Noone should live on a game. I agree with some of you guys points for sure, but I still think there is room to have a "standard" for all mmo gamers. think of it as like levels.. mostly all mmos have a level cap thats around the same range.... "time constraints" on content should be the same.
nothing in any game or MMO should take longer than 3-4 hrs in one sitting, and if for some reason it does. You should be able to break it up into different sessions. I don't see whats hard to understand or get about that. It doesn't change the game in anyway, for anyone. whats not to like?
My original argument still stands.
Play it and adapt.
Don't play it and move on. Find that game that sacrifices quality to be all things to all players and enjoy yourself.
But for the sake of all of us who understand the concept of choice and adaptation, don't play it and bitch that it isn't what you want.
I used to play FF11 everyday. Had 3 75's and enjoyed all aspects of the game. Then wow came along and I quit FF for it. A few months ago I tried to get back into FF11, got a new account, all the expansions.....but just ended up quitting a month later. The entire game is much too complex. Unless you know people on that server, leveling will take months and months. It took me 4 hours to get a group in the dunes that last for 45 mins. The missions take too much time....way too much time. If you want to get to tge expansion zones you need to do even longer and compex mission. Honestly, just thinking about what I would be in for made me quit again. I loved the game itself but the reason for WoW's huge success is it's solo play and appeal to the casual player.
I am by no means a casual....I spend at least 3-4 hours a day online. But you have to make the game accessible to new players and allow for solo play and leveling. FF11 has it's set community. For anyone new to join, you have to either know someone or be willing to spend the next few months trying to group to 75....then spend another few months getting attuned to everything. I really hope the developers take that into consideration.
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I was with you until you went down this road. While that reasoning sounds logical, it's not. Mythic tried that with Warhammer and it failed because people didn't want another WoW style game, they wanted an improved DAoC style game. As I've said before, by your logic, all restaurants should strive to be McDonald's, because they are the #1 selling restaurant in the world. See the problem with that?
... I'll take public quests ... i though they were a neat thing to do.
Go Inaya!
Couldnt have said it better myself.
I agree aswellI was with you until you went down this road. While that reasoning sounds logical, it's not. Mythic tried that with Warhammer and it failed because people didn't want another WoW style game, they wanted an improved DAoC style game. As I've said before, by your logic, all restaurants should strive to be McDonald's, because they are the #1 selling restaurant in the world. See the problem with that?
... I'll take public quests ... i though they were a neat thing to do.
I liked the public quests too myself.. I just wasn't a fan of the overrall concept. There certainly are players that were fans of it, and they continue to play it. They didn't include enough options for all types of players, and instead drastically cut their playerbase down by only catering to a specific type of gamer.
You can have PVP
You can have PVE
You can have group content
You can have solo content
You can have short content
You can have long content
and you can have them all in the same game, and you can give ALL players access to ALL of them. The choice should be "Do I want to participate" instead of "Do I have time?"
If it wasn't possible, there would be no argument.
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This^^
OMG love this statement! Thanks! Going to use this one!
Actually, you're making my point for me. Mythic thought "ooh Blizzard does it this way, we'll do that and we'll be successful too"... They originally tried to make PvP all scenario (aka battleground) based and later (as an after-thought) added open RvR when the beta testers screamed bloody murder. Had they made open RvR the focus, things would surely have been done differently and people might have gotten what they were expecting Warhammer to be... but they didn't, so they left. It's the same with FFXIV... people are expecting some similarity to FFXI, or they aren't going to be happy.
I think their success is based on a whole lot more factors than that... when they released, the market was ripe for a "next-gen" MMORPG since the old-style ones were showing their age, and people had more faith in Blizzard than EQ2 (which released about the same time). It catered to a younger crowd which has a higher population of gamers than older crowds. Non-MMORPG players were familiar with the Warcraft IP so it wasn't completely foreign to people who wanted to give it a try. All of this created a snowball effect. Of course attracting people was only part of the equation. The other part, which you refer to, was making the game accessible/appealing to a wide audience, and making sure they released new content frequently enough that people wouldn't burn out and leave... which obviously Blizzard had ample budget to do.
I'm sure even if Blizzard released such content, people still wouldn't be happy enough to keep playing. I think it has more to do with WoW showing it's age and people are getting burned out. They just aren't content with repeated instance raiding and now they're looking for something new and better.
Okay I just have to say one thing to your over all argument here. Yes if you could do everything then you could have everyone be happy, but the fact remains -- as you say -- you can't. Companies do target a certain niche of people when they put out a product. The example of McDs has come up and you said since they are the best everyone should be like them. That is not the case everyone needs to carve out their own identity in the market to make it is product different from one company to the next.
McDs does a little bit of everything quickly cheaply and btw the food is really bad (doesn't stop me from eatting it). That is their thing. They give you a variety at a low price, but the skimp on quality and service. Now take something like Taco Bell (niche: Mexican), KFC (niche: fried chicken), Pizza Hut (niche: pizza), Wedny's (niche: cheap $1 menu), Burger King (niche: flame broil/angus burgers) ... all these have their own specific thing that they do and they do it well where McDs has basically taken the niche of all of them and incorperated it into their business model (yes there is a McPizza), but if you want Tacos or a Barrito you don't go to McDs ... you go to Taco Bell. Even though you can get them their you will skip over McD because they are not know and do it is as well.
So now look at the MMO market. The games you have are basically set around IPs and not food. In WoW you also have the concept of warring factions. EQ/2 is the granddaddy of mmos ... and you can go on.
If you turn and make FFXI be completely soloable, but you could group if you wanted to you are going to increase your player base in theory because you are not closing off the group of people that have the social skills of a dung bettle and table topping is too social for them. So your subscription numbers go up. The problem with doing this is why group if you don't have to. In WoW you group to do one or two quest or to raid other than that grouping is optional, have you played wow (sorry I don't feel like reading to see if you have)? You can go for days upon days without anyone ever talking to you. The only time someone addressed me directly was a guild leader I had that wanted me to do a raid that was 20 levels higher than me so he could get an item. Because of the soloability of WoW there is no need so finding help or finding other that need a quest is a little difficult. Personally I have been invited to parties for no reason in WoW other than I'm standing in a spot. No one ever told me what was going on or even said Hi to me when i entered the party.
That is the kind of behavior you get when you make something soloable like WoW is ... that is what we don't want in FFXI or in FFXIV. We want that social aspect we want to talk to each other and chew the fat like linkshells do in this game. Be having grouping forced on you you are #1 forced into communicating with people #2 forced to work in unison #3 forced to become better player because you are put up in front of players that are better than you. The last part is something, if you suck as a player no one is going to want to party with you because you drag the party down, thus you have to force yourself to become a better player so people will continue to invite you.
Look, trust me I know it sucks LFP if i could just jump up and start playing that would be great (and btw I have goten a party invite before is said "Welcome to Asura" before ... be a good player). I only have a few hours a night to play if i even feel like it, it sucks when i have to spend half that time LFP, but, over all, if i have to sacrifice my social aspect for soloability the game can kiss my ass and I'll just go out to a bar and get laid instead.
The greater majority of the players that play this game like what it is and we want the good from FFXI to get into FFXIV. Would it be nice if I could kill some mobs while I am lfp yes most areas this isn't really feesible. Realize though the reason this is a problem which i said in my other post is because the player base isn't playing. There are less parties and so less jobs to fill. This isn't a problem with SE. I remember back in the very begining of not waiting more than a 30 minutes an hour tops for a party, hell even today I can usually get a party in under and hour. The job system actaully is very good for repeat people playing jobs in zones. This is a strenght of the system. If people want to do it they will do it. The reason for lower numbers in peopel leveling is either people are past the level and don't want to play again they just want to get to end game and get a shit load of items (not SEs fault), WoW came at just the right time and stole FFXI's thunder (not SEs fault), and the gil seller explosion happend which turned a lot of people away (could make argument that it is SEs fault, but more the player base for buy the gil and giving the business). Remember you are playing a game that in 7 years old now, it isn't like the game came out yesterday. The numbers that it has despite the bad things that have happened are amazing and that is a testimate to how good the game truely is the way it is.
Overall and I say this to everyone. If forced grouping isn't your thing then it isn't your thing and there are a lot of games you can play. One-Hundred Percent soloability, minimal social interaction, pvp ganking of noobs 50 levels below me, and gettting big shiney purple weapons isn't my thing ... which is why I don't play WoW (very often). It is what it is and it isn't SEs fault people are missing out on real life. Go read my other post on this thread, it is the player base that makes it that way.
Also, I don't know what you are doing wrong, I can get anywhere in this game that people party in under 10 minutes. Ten minutes isn't bad at all considering the size of the maps.
Playing an MMO that you don't have time to play or that doesn't suit your play style and demanding that it adapt to you is like standing in McDonalds demanding a Taco because McDonalds is closer than Taco Bell and why the hell should you have to drive farther when there is a McDonalds a block away. Its pointless and only angers the people at McDonalds. If you want tacos suck it up and go to Taco Bell. If you'd rather not drive as far, eat the burger and move on.
Playing an MMO that you don't have time to play or that doesn't suit your play style and demanding that it adapt to you is like standing in McDonalds demanding a Taco because McDonalds is closer than Taco Bell and why the hell should you have to drive farther when there is a McDonalds a block away. Its pointless and only angers the people at McDonalds. If you want tacos suck it up and go to Taco Bell. If you'd rather not drive as far, eat the burger and move on.
If I wanted a "great" taco, I wouldn't go to taco bell in the first place.
If I had a car full of people who all wanted something different, we'd compromise by going to the place with the biggest variety and the best prices.
See, we can spin this scenario all over the place.
Basically, we have come to the understanding that the reason I don't play FFXI currently is because I don't have time to sit at my pc for 8 hrs in one sitting, and I won't ever have that kind of time. I wished the world wasn't such a screwed up place, where stuff like this is considered normal.
we don't have 12 hr long movies do we?
we don't knowingly eat roaches at restaurants do we?
noone knows what "normal" is anymore.
I thought I was normal, but apparently the guy who sits at his pc with his bag of cheetos and monster energy drink for 12 hrs is normal..
The problem with the food scenario.. is that not everyone likes tacos, not everyone likes burgers, and not everyone likes steaks. So, you could open a taco stand.. but you'd only ever have people who like tacos.
If you want to open your doors for more than just one type of person, your going to have to compromise other parts of your product in order to make that a reality.
In order to serve tacos, burgers, and steak.. you will have to sacrifice some quality.
But, honestly.... my original argument still stands.
Who in the world WANTS to sit at a pc for that damn long? See a doctor.
At the end of the day it still amounts to no lifers wanting to have some sort of glorified achievement award for the time they've spent, instead of just having fun with a game as intended. If they didn't have that attitude I don't think we'd even be having this discussion. And, if the hardcore players really "don"t like spending all that time grinding, and sitting at the pc.. why do you do it anyway? MMORPG's should be fun social interactive experiences, that get you away from real life for a little while.. not a REPLACEMENT for it. Noone should live on a game. I agree with some of you guys points for sure, but I still think there is room to have a "standard" for all mmo gamers. think of it as like levels.. mostly all mmos have a level cap thats around the same range.... "time constraints" on content should be the same.
nothing in any game or MMO should take longer than 3-4 hrs in one sitting, and if for some reason it does. You should be able to break it up into different sessions. I don't see whats hard to understand or get about that. It doesn't change the game in anyway, for anyone. whats not to like?
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There's no point in trying to make them understand. We will just have to wait and see what they do with FFXIV.
"SE: As with World of Warcraft and how they have aimed for the casual users, we do want to put some of that in FFXIV as well - aiming for those more casual users. We don't, however, want to make a copy of World of Warcraft, and we're going to have things that we believe are unique, and will make us stand out from that game."
I can live with that.
It'll be intresting to see how they pull it off though.
There's no point in trying to make them understand. We will just have to wait and see what they do with FFXIV.
"SE: As with World of Warcraft and how they have aimed for the casual users, we do want to put some of that in FFXIV as well - aiming for those more casual users. We don't, however, want to make a copy of World of Warcraft, and we're going to have things that we believe are unique, and will make us stand out from that game."
I can live with that.
It'll be intresting to see how they pull it off though.
At least SE understands the idea. And supports it.
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Here is the shimmy that many seem to not realize.
Example.... i do not sit in front of a mercedes car lot complaining they should change their prices to meet my demands.
example....i do not complain the high class restaurant ,should serve burgers because that meets my demand for food.
example..i do not complain to my boss that he should change his hours to meet my demands
It goes on and on,the point is VERY simple,you "HAVE" choice,if the choice does not meet your play time/criteria,then pick something that does,it is very simple.
The other VERY obvious point is that ,NOBODY on this entire earth ,could possibly expect a developer to change their game design to meet the wants of every gamer on this planet !They make a decision on their game,they go with it,then it is again the peoples "CHOICE" weather to play it or not.
The Genre DOES need several different choices,we do not need EVERY MMORPG to become a single player game,as many including myself ,do enjoy the MMORPG as well as sinlge player games on occasion.Some people like PVP,some like PVE,we need these choices,that SHOULD be VERY obvious.If a game does not meet someone's criteria that is fine,nobody forces them or us to play the game.If someone wants to spend 6 hours a day on a game,then they have that choice,if someone wants to play 2 hours a night,then again they can go out and find that game,nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head.
The conclusion is that their "IS" choices,people should quit trying to take away those choices by asking for ONE game that meets their selfish demands.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
yep, and unfortunately.. everyone including those who do sit in front of their pcs for 12 hrs are selfish, by thinking I should have to do the same thing.
Its a never ending circle. Its simple to fix really.
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FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
According to this snip from the E3 2009 press conference, they realize these things:
Q: What would you like to emphasize with this game? What is different from FFXI?
A: For FFXIV, the keyword that we've been using is "The Growth and Development of the Character." We will have the same type of storytelling and high-quality graphics. We also want to expand and create new in-game systems. The player can grow and develop in a more natural way without putting too much weight on the player. We will expand the job system to make it fairly different from the one in FFXI.
A: Another very important concept that takes a different direction from FFXI, is that for FFXIV we want to make it so the player can choose to play solo, in a party, 40 minutes, all-day... there will be content for ALL of those play styles and systems for all of those play styles.
Don't know which one said it, but it was either the director or producer of the game.
Yup, sounds great! =]
yep, and unfortunately.. everyone including those who do sit in front of their pcs for 12 hrs are selfish, by thinking I should have to do the same thing.
Its a never ending circle. Its simple to fix really.
Actually, I have logged less hours in front of my pc in the last several months than you have if you can still muster 3 hour sessions to play. I defend the opposition of your opinion not because I am in it, but because your wrong.
Even in irl, at a job, its the same. If I stay at work longer to get thing done when it is volunteer, and you decide to go to the movies with your wife and kids, there is a good chance I will move upwards and obtain a better position with higher pay+benefits. If temperment of knowledge and worth ethic in general is the same, but i can choose to put in more time, I AM superior to you at the workplace. With a mmorpg, someone might only work a 40 hour a week job, and have it unfortunately set at a 2nd shift or graveyard shift hours. Often, during the week, they have nothing to do.
It comes down to choices. Your not entitled to feeling accomplished nor equal in a game. It is a game. One might think that your trying to pull from a game what you cannot in real life, equality. Well, in the fantasy world, you still might be considered less of a essential factor. If you want to do those 6 hour sessions, then one DAY out of the month, set aside 6 hours. If its that damn important to you, then do it. If your kids are having LOADS of fun with you, you dont stand up and say "well my 3 hours is up with you, its how our game of baseball is designed" and walk away. You often decide, screw it, I am going to let this thing go for tonight and keep having fun cause this dosent happen EVERY NIGHT. That and we all know plenty of events irl can take 2 hours, or 6 hours. That is why many change rules to make it longer. Cause its a long session of fun. If you cant hang, then dont worry about it and let them have they're fun. Your fun does not constitute limitations on their fun.
A video game isnt the place that you get the things you cant get irl. Your not, nor ever will be, equal to everyone. It should matter. You should be happy with the fun you get yourself. People who play 2 hours every few days a week I have seen complain and think they deserve less then you. They go in, play, have fun, and dont worry about "what they cant have".
Heres a time syncs that drives me nuts. Trying to skill up Goldsmith. I go buy ore(bad enough they dont stack) and i get a chat log full of, Please wait longer to make another purchase. Why do i have to sit there and count to 10 in my head just to buy another one. Then theres the delay with killing a monster, then moving onto another one with the line, You must wait longer to perform that action. Whats up with all these delays? Theres more delays ,but you guys see my point. This is the only game i play that have these delays.
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yep, and unfortunately.. everyone including those who do sit in front of their pcs for 12 hrs are selfish, by thinking I should have to do the same thing.
Its a never ending circle. Its simple to fix really.
Actually, I have logged less hours in front of my pc in the last several months than you have if you can still muster 3 hour sessions to play. I defend the opposition of your opinion not because I am in it, but because your wrong.
Even in irl, at a job, its the same. If I stay at work longer to get thing done when it is volunteer, and you decide to go to the movies with your wife and kids, there is a good chance I will move upwards and obtain a better position with higher pay+benefits. If temperment of knowledge and worth ethic in general is the same, but i can choose to put in more time, I AM superior to you at the workplace. With a mmorpg, someone might only work a 40 hour a week job, and have it unfortunately set at a 2nd shift or graveyard shift hours. Often, during the week, they have nothing to do.
It comes down to choices. Your not entitled to feeling accomplished nor equal in a game. It is a game. One might think that your trying to pull from a game what you cannot in real life, equality. Well, in the fantasy world, you still might be considered less of a essential factor. If you want to do those 6 hour sessions, then one DAY out of the month, set aside 6 hours. If its that damn important to you, then do it. If your kids are having LOADS of fun with you, you dont stand up and say "well my 3 hours is up with you, its how our game of baseball is designed" and walk away. You often decide, screw it, I am going to let this thing go for tonight and keep having fun cause this dosent happen EVERY NIGHT. That and we all know plenty of events irl can take 2 hours, or 6 hours. That is why many change rules to make it longer. Cause its a long session of fun. If you cant hang, then dont worry about it and let them have they're fun. Your fun does not constitute limitations on their fun.
A video game isnt the place that you get the things you cant get irl. Your not, nor ever will be, equal to everyone. It should matter. You should be happy with the fun you get yourself. People who play 2 hours every few days a week I have seen complain and think they deserve less then you. They go in, play, have fun, and dont worry about "what they cant have".
Its a game..
no need for those time sinks.
If thats the case, they should add 2 hr blocks in the middle of movies with just a black screen.. and make you sit there through it, order to get to the other part of the movie.
I'm not talking about when its so fun you happen to stay around for the extra time. I'm saying when events are created that automatically exhaust more time than the average player has. 6-8 hrs is not average I don't care how you "spin" it. You can't change it for everyone, but you can make most people happy by not putting in garbage that doesn't do anything other than make things take longer.
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Once again, missing my point.
If you want to play for 8 hrs in one sitting.. noone is stopping you from doing that. However, there shouldn't be anything in a game that takes that long at one time. There should be NOTHING in the game that requires that much time in one sitting.
I'm playing FFXI since day 1 its US PC launch. I have never had to spend 8 hours in a row at my computer doing 1 thing. I haven't even *had* to do that for 5 hours. The longest anything has taken me was doing one of my job quests (SAM) back when all us Western players were still noobs.. We had to switch out players 3 or 4 times and then find replacements. In all, it took us 4 hours to kill all the mobs, turn in the items, etc. And even then, I stuck around for that 4 hours because I chose to. I could have left and finished it another time if I wanted. But, I was part of a group who was trying to get that job unlocked and I'd have felt like a dick for leaving when I really didn't have to. So I stuck around 'til we were done.
If I've spent 8 hours in one sitting (and I have back when I first played; not so much lately) it was filled with a variety of activities - questing, xp'ing, etc.
So, while I might play for 3-4 hrs and only get 1 event done. You can stay on and play for 8 hrs and get 2-3 events done, since your on longer. It doesn't make you superior to me, just means you stayed on playing longer. I will eventually get the same stuff completed, just split up in segments.
That's kinda how it works in FFXI. More time spent = more accomplished. I've helped someone through all of Rank 4, switched jobs and did Promyvions in a single sitting. That's quite a lot in one setting. Broken down, that's 6 individual activities. If I'd spent less time in that sitting, I might only have completed the Rank 4 missions... and that would have been fine.
I've also logged on for a couple hours completed one of my Genkai quests and then went off and did some xp'ing.
On that note, anyone who would feel "superior" for having more time to play than someone else is an idiot.
By purposely making travel times tedious, with no obvious reasons for them being that way.. it automatically tacks on the time it takes to complete things without actually adding any challenge.
There are ways around that... Outpost warps can be "unlocked" and result in very fast travel. The 6 warp crystals also provide a quick way around if a WHM is present. BLM's with Warp II. You have to put the time in to get those things - but then that's how SE is in FFXI... anything worthwhile to your character must be earned and can take time. I think it's best that way. That said, I can't remember the last time it took me even 20 minutes to get to a given location, no matter how remote, nevermind 45.
There are easy ways to make this happen.. someone just has to stop being an idiot and do it.
Sure... SE can meet players part way to make things a bit less tedious or time-consuming, and I do agree that there are a number of pointless time-sinks in the game. For example, having to wait 'til after JP midnight to complete a quest... No point in that at all many times. To be fair, sometimes it does help the integrity of a story; like, you wouldn't expect someone to craft a perfect Great Katana while you stand there waiting, so having to wait does make sense in that case. But other times it's pointless.
That said, at some point, the individual has to decide whether the way the game is designed is suitable to their playstyle or time constraints. If it isn't and you wouldn't be able to do what you'd like to in a given session, then perhaps the best decision is not to play. Blaming the developer for not designing the game to cater to one's individual playstyle, time-constraints, etc... and asking them to change it so it does is not only unreasonable, it's selfish.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I think I can pretty much agree with you here raystantz
I totally agree that things should be cut down into sections so that people who can't play 8 hours straight can complete it. i.e. have something akin to checkpoints every couple of hours where you can leave and come back later if you have to get off the game for whatever real life obligation.
Also, they could definitely cut down on how long it takes to get groups together and certain aspects of travel and maybe add some more travel points to select locations on the map (not too many though, we don't want to make it toooo easy
). Also, adding more stuff to do while LFG would be awesome, including something to do for smaller amounts of xp to be completed solo while LFG.
As for the WoW comparisons, I think we can do without haha. I don't think FFXI should try to mimic WoW "accessibility" because what does that term even really mean? Because if you're talking about copying gameplay mechanics such as quest grinding and every dungeon being instanced and zero death penalty, no thanks. I'm just not sure the WoW analogy really makes a good point for accessibility as far as cutting down LFG times and checkpoints in endgame content is concerned (maybe I missed something? if so, please explain to me!).
Edit: I guess they have the outpost warps for travel although when I played, which was awhile ago I never used them and/or they may have not existed (at least not within the confines of MY mind. haha they may have been there and I just didn't know about them).
thats mainly due to the learning curve. I don't think they actually mention the outpost warps, you just have to stumble upon that npc. On my first toon in FFXI I didn't know anything about them until I was mid 30s. Even still, a way to get people to a leveling spot instantly, provided they have made the trek on foot there once.. would make life much easier, when waiting on people.
Everytime I ever tried to group, I wasted at least 30 minutes to anywhere to an hr or more. By the time I actually got to the party spot, half my playtime was over.
your mileage may vary in FFXI..
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Playing an MMO that you don't have time to play or that doesn't suit your play style and demanding that it adapt to you is like standing in McDonalds demanding a Taco because McDonalds is closer than Taco Bell and why the hell should you have to drive farther when there is a McDonalds a block away. Its pointless and only angers the people at McDonalds. If you want tacos suck it up and go to Taco Bell. If you'd rather not drive as far, eat the burger and move on.
If I wanted a "great" taco, I wouldn't go to taco bell in the first place.
If I had a car full of people who all wanted something different, we'd compromise by going to the place with the biggest variety and the best prices.
See, we can spin this scenario all over the place.
Basically, we have come to the understanding that the reason I don't play FFXI currently is because I don't have time to sit at my pc for 8 hrs in one sitting, and I won't ever have that kind of time. I wished the world wasn't such a screwed up place, where stuff like this is considered normal.
we don't have 12 hr long movies do we?
we don't knowingly eat roaches at restaurants do we?
noone knows what "normal" is anymore.
I thought I was normal, but apparently the guy who sits at his pc with his bag of cheetos and monster energy drink for 12 hrs is normal..
The problem with the food scenario.. is that not everyone likes tacos, not everyone likes burgers, and not everyone likes steaks. So, you could open a taco stand.. but you'd only ever have people who like tacos.
If you want to open your doors for more than just one type of person, your going to have to compromise other parts of your product in order to make that a reality.
In order to serve tacos, burgers, and steak.. you will have to sacrifice some quality.
But, honestly.... my original argument still stands.
Who in the world WANTS to sit at a pc for that damn long? See a doctor.
At the end of the day it still amounts to no lifers wanting to have some sort of glorified achievement award for the time they've spent, instead of just having fun with a game as intended. If they didn't have that attitude I don't think we'd even be having this discussion. And, if the hardcore players really "don"t like spending all that time grinding, and sitting at the pc.. why do you do it anyway? MMORPG's should be fun social interactive experiences, that get you away from real life for a little while.. not a REPLACEMENT for it. Noone should live on a game. I agree with some of you guys points for sure, but I still think there is room to have a "standard" for all mmo gamers. think of it as like levels.. mostly all mmos have a level cap thats around the same range.... "time constraints" on content should be the same.
nothing in any game or MMO should take longer than 3-4 hrs in one sitting, and if for some reason it does. You should be able to break it up into different sessions. I don't see whats hard to understand or get about that. It doesn't change the game in anyway, for anyone. whats not to like?
You are being stubborn and argumentative at this point. Not to mention you you are taking analogies literally (I don't give a shit where you get your Tacos from). I'll put this as plainly as possible. This game is for people who can sit longer than 3-4 hours and enjoy doing it. Just because you think that this is wrong doesn't make it wrong. If you don't fit in that group then this game is not for you and please look elsewhere to find a game you are going to enjoy. I hate to try another analogy, but if you don't like RPGs and you like FPSs then don't bitch out the RPG because it isn't want you want to play go play the FPS you already like. There is nothing wrong with the game that tailors itself to a specific group. There is nothing wrong with a specific group that allies itself with a particular game that fits the play that they like.
SE has stated that this new game is going to be more turned towards the casual side of gaming compared to what FFXI is today thus your entire argument against the idea of the hardcore predicessor is freaking MOOT. Just sit back, crack open a Coors, enjoy life for the next few months until this game comes out. Seriously.
Playing an MMO that you don't have time to play or that doesn't suit your play style and demanding that it adapt to you is like standing in McDonalds demanding a Taco because McDonalds is closer than Taco Bell and why the hell should you have to drive farther when there is a McDonalds a block away. Its pointless and only angers the people at McDonalds. If you want tacos suck it up and go to Taco Bell. If you'd rather not drive as far, eat the burger and move on.
If I wanted a "great" taco, I wouldn't go to taco bell in the first place.
If I had a car full of people who all wanted something different, we'd compromise by going to the place with the biggest variety and the best prices.
See, we can spin this scenario all over the place.
Basically, we have come to the understanding that the reason I don't play FFXI currently is because I don't have time to sit at my pc for 8 hrs in one sitting, and I won't ever have that kind of time. I wished the world wasn't such a screwed up place, where stuff like this is considered normal.
we don't have 12 hr long movies do we?
we don't knowingly eat roaches at restaurants do we?
noone knows what "normal" is anymore.
I thought I was normal, but apparently the guy who sits at his pc with his bag of cheetos and monster energy drink for 12 hrs is normal..
The problem with the food scenario.. is that not everyone likes tacos, not everyone likes burgers, and not everyone likes steaks. So, you could open a taco stand.. but you'd only ever have people who like tacos.
If you want to open your doors for more than just one type of person, your going to have to compromise other parts of your product in order to make that a reality.
In order to serve tacos, burgers, and steak.. you will have to sacrifice some quality.
But, honestly.... my original argument still stands.
Who in the world WANTS to sit at a pc for that damn long? See a doctor.
At the end of the day it still amounts to no lifers wanting to have some sort of glorified achievement award for the time they've spent, instead of just having fun with a game as intended. If they didn't have that attitude I don't think we'd even be having this discussion. And, if the hardcore players really "don"t like spending all that time grinding, and sitting at the pc.. why do you do it anyway? MMORPG's should be fun social interactive experiences, that get you away from real life for a little while.. not a REPLACEMENT for it. Noone should live on a game. I agree with some of you guys points for sure, but I still think there is room to have a "standard" for all mmo gamers. think of it as like levels.. mostly all mmos have a level cap thats around the same range.... "time constraints" on content should be the same.
nothing in any game or MMO should take longer than 3-4 hrs in one sitting, and if for some reason it does. You should be able to break it up into different sessions. I don't see whats hard to understand or get about that. It doesn't change the game in anyway, for anyone. whats not to like?
You are being stubborn and argumentative at this point. Not to mention you you are taking analogies literally (I don't give a shit where you get your Tacos from). I'll put this as plainly as possible. This game is for people who can sit longer than 3-4 hours and enjoy doing it. Just because you think that this is wrong doesn't make it wrong. If you don't fit in that group then this game is not for you and please look elsewhere to find a game you are going to enjoy. I hate to try another analogy, but if you don't like RPGs and you like FPSs then don't bitch out the RPG because it isn't want you want to play go play the FPS you already like. There is nothing wrong with the game that tailors itself to a specific group. There is nothing wrong with a specific group that allies itself with a particular game that fits the play that they like.
SE has stated that this new game is going to be more turned towards the casual side of gaming compared to what FFXI is today thus your entire argument against the idea of the hardcore predicessor is freaking MOOT. Just sit back, crack open a Coors, enjoy life for the next few months until this game comes out. Seriously.
But discussing games and getting people all antsy about them is so much more fun.
I enjoy rpgs immensely, and pretty much hate FPS games entirely.
www.facebook.com/themarksmovierules
Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
However, we can also see the number of events that do take that long are not nearly as plentiful as the ones that take much less time. If everything took 6-8 hours to complete, i might agree with you. Course, still, I remember my EQ days. I had more time then, but i couldnt do 6-8 hours a day everyday by any stretch. I remember how long it took me to get the campable stuff for my mage epic, because i had to hope to god it dropped in my short timespan of play. It took a heck of a long time compared to others, but i still did it. You know how? Every once in awhile, I did spend that 6 or 8 hours on the game. Maybe a sunday every 3 weeks. It wasnt a issue. I just felt it was worth the fun, and i did it. Heck, I've done so many "real life" things that took much longer, cause it was designed that way.
I mean playing paintball tourneys on a 600+ acre farm. Sure, we could have made it so much faster, not a all day thing, by just driving out trucks out there. The guys who held it didnt need to "design" the rules so it took so damn long to do a good game. But you know, it was more fun, since it wasnt something you had to do every weekend, but maybe once every month or two, because it WAS demanding more. Everyone thought so as well. We are talking about people who work so damn much, and do everything they can to raise their families and be there, that they dont have alot of time.
I am not spinning it. I am saying if a game is designed even for everything to take 6-8 hours, then they will still have hardcores and casuals. Look at wow, and the old raids. Remember EQ? I see your little "resume" of past mmorpgs. So I know you do. If this game made by SE has 10% of content you cant do less you can put in 6 hour run every once in awhile, but the other 90% can be done in easy and under 3 hour sprints, then you should be satisfied or look elsewhere.
Artificial timesinks are how they push down unbridled consumption of content. It's a valid, promoted, taught, and essential aspect in game development for mmorpgs. What takes 6 hours will take maybe 2-3 in the next expansion. So eventually you will get to do it on your "own" terms anyhow. Like you want. Just not as SOON as you want. Isnt that the issue? You say it is unneeded timesinks, but I think it's "i want it my way, faster".
Playing an MMO that you don't have time to play or that doesn't suit your play style and demanding that it adapt to you is like standing in McDonalds demanding a Taco because McDonalds is closer than Taco Bell and why the hell should you have to drive farther when there is a McDonalds a block away. Its pointless and only angers the people at McDonalds. If you want tacos suck it up and go to Taco Bell. If you'd rather not drive as far, eat the burger and move on.
If I wanted a "great" taco, I wouldn't go to taco bell in the first place.
Oh, but with your argument you should go into Taco Bell and demand that they prepare the exact type of taco you want.
If I had a car full of people who all wanted something different, we'd compromise by going to the place with the biggest variety and the best prices.
No, you don't want compromise.
See, we can spin this scenario all over the place.
Basically, we have come to the understanding that the reason I don't play FFXI currently is because I don't have time to sit at my pc for 8 hrs in one sitting, and I won't ever have that kind of time. I wished the world wasn't such a screwed up place, where stuff like this is considered normal.
No one is telling you to sit at your PC for 8 hrs in one sitting and there really is no reason for you to have to do so.
we don't have 12 hr long movies do we?
Can you say mini-series?
we don't knowingly eat roaches at restaurants do we?
This has nothing to do with this subject.
noone knows what "normal" is anymore.
What is normal has been in debate and question for centuries.
I thought I was normal, but apparently the guy who sits at his pc with his bag of cheetos and monster energy drink for 12 hrs is normal..
Where do you get this picture of people who accomplish things in MMO's? Countless people have told you they have accomplished lots of things without the kind of time you seem to insist they invested.
The problem with the food scenario.. is that not everyone likes tacos, not everyone likes burgers, and not everyone likes steaks. So, you could open a taco stand.. but you'd only ever have people who like tacos.
And your point is what?
If you want to open your doors for more than just one type of person, your going to have to compromise other parts of your product in order to make that a reality.
In order to serve tacos, burgers, and steak.. you will have to sacrifice some quality.
No, you want to sacrifice quality to get exactly what you want. What some of us are saying is that we don't want to sacrifice quality. We don't expect a game to make compromises, to adapt to us. We understand that we are not entitled to everything we want, when we want it.
But, honestly.... my original argument still stands.
No, it really doesn't. While lots of posters have agreed with some of what you've said and acknowledged that they understand what you are trying to say, the fact that they disagree with you seems to be preventing you from even trying to understand the other point of view.
Who in the world WANTS to sit at a pc for that damn long? See a doctor.
At the end of the day it still amounts to no lifers wanting to have some sort of glorified achievement award for the time they've spent, instead of just having fun with a game as intended. If they didn't have that attitude I don't think we'd even be having this discussion. And, if the hardcore players really "don"t like spending all that time grinding, and sitting at the pc.. why do you do it anyway? MMORPG's should be fun social interactive experiences, that get you away from real life for a little while.. not a REPLACEMENT for it. Noone should live on a game. I agree with some of you guys points for sure, but I still think there is room to have a "standard" for all mmo gamers. think of it as like levels.. mostly all mmos have a level cap thats around the same range.... "time constraints" on content should be the same.
nothing in any game or MMO should take longer than 3-4 hrs in one sitting, and if for some reason it does. You should be able to break it up into different sessions. I don't see whats hard to understand or get about that. It doesn't change the game in anyway, for anyone. whats not to like?
My original argument still stands.
Play it and adapt.
Don't play it and move on. Find that game that sacrifices quality to be all things to all players and enjoy yourself.
But for the sake of all of us who understand the concept of choice and adaptation, don't play it and bitch that it isn't what you want.
I used to play FF11 everyday. Had 3 75's and enjoyed all aspects of the game. Then wow came along and I quit FF for it. A few months ago I tried to get back into FF11, got a new account, all the expansions.....but just ended up quitting a month later. The entire game is much too complex. Unless you know people on that server, leveling will take months and months. It took me 4 hours to get a group in the dunes that last for 45 mins. The missions take too much time....way too much time. If you want to get to tge expansion zones you need to do even longer and compex mission. Honestly, just thinking about what I would be in for made me quit again. I loved the game itself but the reason for WoW's huge success is it's solo play and appeal to the casual player.
I am by no means a casual....I spend at least 3-4 hours a day online. But you have to make the game accessible to new players and allow for solo play and leveling. FF11 has it's set community. For anyone new to join, you have to either know someone or be willing to spend the next few months trying to group to 75....then spend another few months getting attuned to everything. I really hope the developers take that into consideration.