Yes, this is stereotyping, but imo, most PvPers are assholes and immature. Sure, pvping can be a lot of fun, DAoC was still some of the most fun in an MMO when RvRing. Nowadays, its all about being the best. The PvPers can't ever let the PvEr's have their own game without getting pissed off if PvP isn't the main focus. THEN, when PvP isn't the main focus, and people decide they want to raid or do a dungeon and not PvP, the PvPers take it personally and decide to insult the others, who are just trying to play a damn game. To me, its as simple as this. When playing through a grand RPG or adventure, don't you ever feel like "man, that'd be cool if I could've fought that hard boss with some friends"? That's why I like PvE...I like the adventure with my friends, not worrying about staying on top and being competitive with all the other jerks.
How about we reword your comments but keep it in the same context?
Sure PvE can be a lot of fun. DaoC was still some of the most fun in an MMO when camping. Nowadays, it's all about being the best (LOOT) The PVE"rs can't ever let the PvP'rs have their own game without getting pissed off if PvE isn't the main focus. THEN, when PvE isn't the main focuse, and people decide they want to raid a relic or keep and not PvE, the PvE'rs take it personally and decide to insult the others, who are just trying to play a damn game.
To me, it's as simple as this. When playing through a grand RPG or adventure, don't you ever feel like "man, that'd be cool if I could've fought that group with some friends? That's why I like PvP.. I like the adventure with my friends, not worrying about staying on top and being competitive with all the other lootwhoring jerks.
And to be honest,, most of the insults and name calling in this thread has come from pve'rs and anti-pvp'rs.
Yes, this is stereotyping, but imo, most PvPers are assholes and immature. Sure, pvping can be a lot of fun, DAoC was still some of the most fun in an MMO when RvRing. Nowadays, its all about being the best. The PvPers can't ever let the PvEr's have their own game without getting pissed off if PvP isn't the main focus. THEN, when PvP isn't the main focus, and people decide they want to raid or do a dungeon and not PvP, the PvPers take it personally and decide to insult the others, who are just trying to play a damn game. To me, its as simple as this. When playing through a grand RPG or adventure, don't you ever feel like "man, that'd be cool if I could've fought that hard boss with some friends"? That's why I like PvE...I like the adventure with my friends, not worrying about staying on top and being competitive with all the other jerks.
How about we reword your comments but keep it in the same context?
Sure PvE can be a lot of fun. DaoC was still some of the most fun in an MMO when camping. Nowadays, it's all about being the best (LOOT) The PVE"rs can't ever let the PvP'rs have their own game without getting pissed off if PvE isn't the main focus. THEN, when PvE isn't the main focuse, and people decide they want to raid a relic or keep and not PvE, the PvE'rs take it personally and decide to insult the others, who are just trying to play a damn game.
To me, it's as simple as this. When playing through a grand RPG or adventure, don't you ever feel like "man, that'd be cool if I could've fought that group with some friends? That's why I like PvP.. I like the adventure with my friends, not worrying about staying on top and being competitive with all the other lootwhoring jerks.
And to be honest,, most of the insults and name calling in this thread has come from pve'rs and anti-pvp'rs.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Typically, you don't see PvEr's asking for PvP to be a major part of the game, but then you'll get PvPer's who jump into a game that's all about PvE and they'll constantly spout out "this game would be so much better if it had PvP, I'd play if it had PvP, its fun, but it doesn't have PvP. I can't believe you guys don't want PvP, you all just hate having to fight REAL opponents".
That's the attitude I try to stay away from.
I never said PvEr's couldn't be assholes, there are elitists on both sides. I can't stand elitists anywhere, but there are way more PvP elitists than PvE imo. Yes, PvE elitists are major "lootwhoring jerks", with their stupid DKP system and "minus 50 DKP" nonsense, but thats what I try to stay away from.
Frankly, the PvEr's are probably sick and tired of all the BS and nonsense they have to deal with in game. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy PvP and PvE. What I don't like, is when people talk down to you for not wanting to PvP, and say you have no skill, when all you want to do is work together with some friends to take down a boss. Its fun, never said PvP wasn't fun, its just not everyones cup of tea.
By the way, thanks for assuming that I liked to "camp" in DAoC. To be honest, the only camping I ever remember was hearing the twang of an bow launching an arrow from the trees as I tried to run to the nearest defense or attack. Luckily for me I played a Friar.
Again, there is going to be assholes on both sides, the ones who take raiding too seriously, and the ones who take PvP too seriously. But like I previously stated, there seems to be more PvPing assholes than PvErs.
By the way, I saw your video about how respectful everyone was in the Galahad server, and you have to realize something, I'm takling about a DIFFERENT time.
DAoC was great, that was back before MMOs were ruined by the players that typically play them today.
DAoC was back when it WASN'T cool or popular to play MMORPGs, when it was way more fun because the people you met were all there to have fun and not ruin everyone else's time.
Now, don't get me wrong, this happened A LOT in Pre-Trammel UO, or heck, Post-Trammel UO it still happened in Felucca. But that game WANTED you to be a scoundrel if you played in that world, you HAD to be to exist in that world. It was rare to meet someone nice and decent outside of trammel, because the game wanted you to survive on your own or with a band of friends, and THAT was cool and fine.
Unfortunately, WoW has changed a lot of the players of MMOs and that is upsetting. When most people say they can't stand PvPers, you've got to understand its usually because they played WoW on a PvP server and have too much bottled up anger towards getting griefed all the time.
Mine dislike for most PvPers comes from the ones who ARE NOT respectful, which are a good majority of them, there's no denying that.
This is on topic, but sort of switching gears here, this is an example I use when I mention pvpers being major assholes.
I played the Korean beta of Lineage 2 a long time ago, similar to the way people were playing the Chinese version of Aion. I leveled with some friends I met on there for a good bit, went from 1-30. Ran into people left and right, and not once did I get ganked, attacked, or griefed.
I got into the NA beta of Lineage 2, and I created my character, walked outside of the starter building, and there were two assholes with bow and arrows ganking people as they walked outside of the starter building.
THOSE are the people I can't stand, and yes, I do firmly believe that makes up 80% of the PvP playerbase. Alas, this is my opinion, and it won't change, because there's just way too much griefing that goes on in online games nowadays.
I believe DAoC did it perfectly, you level outside of PvP, then when you're ready and you've completely learned to play your class, you go out into the field and you start PvPing. If you got killed out there, it wasn't a big deal and there was no one to blame but YOURSELF. But lets face it, if DAoC came out today with open PvP across all servers, how easy do you think it'd be too level? How much griefing/ganking and headache would there be just to get to level 50 to reach the raids and relic raids?
Probably a lot...different times, different players.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Typically, you don't see PvEr's asking for PvP to be a major part of the game, but then you'll get PvPer's who jump into a game that's all about PvE and they'll constantly spout out "this game would be so much better if it had PvP, I'd play if it had PvP, its fun, but it doesn't have PvP. I can't believe you guys don't want PvP, you all just hate having to fight REAL opponents".That's the attitude I try to stay away from. Actually, go to any message board about a game in development and you'll see PVE'rs or I should say anti-pvp'rs complaining that pvp shouldn't be in a game. So both camps try to lobby for what they want. Neither is right or wrong, they're just following human nature. I never said PvEr's couldn't be assholes, there are elitists on both sides. I can't stand elitists anywhere, but there are way more PvP elitists than PvE imo. Yes, PvE elitists are major "lootwhoring jerks", with their stupid DKP system and "minus 50 DKP" nonsense, but thats what I try to stay away from. You say PVP elitists outnumber the PVE elitists butyou also have to count the anti-pvp'rs which aren't always elitist lootwhores. You're making an assumption that you have direct numbers on how many of each their are and really it's just a fictitious number/variable you've pulled out of thin air. Frankly, the PvEr's are probably sick and tired of all the BS and nonsense they have to deal with in game. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy PvP and PvE. What I don't like, is when people talk down to you for not wanting to PvP, and say you have no skill, when all you want to do is work together with some friends to take down a boss. Its fun, never said PvP wasn't fun, its just not everyones cup of tea. I get sick and tired of listening to people talk down about people because they like to pvp, and talk down to you because you don't enjoy pve and taking down an AI mob. Because obviously a pvp'r has epeen issue and is some weakass whiny kid who has no real life skills or courage. We all go around kicking puppies and burning lizards with a magnifying glass..... By the way, thanks for assuming that I liked to "camp" in DAoC. To be honest, the only camping I ever remember was hearing the twang of an bow launching an arrow from the trees as I tried to run to the nearest defense or attack. Luckily for me I played a Friar.Again, there is going to be assholes on both sides, the ones who take raiding too seriously, and the ones who take PvP too seriously. But like I previously stated, there seems to be more PvPing assholes than PvErs. Actually when it comes to PVE in DaoC I loved to camp for xp. I spent many a night with one or two friends just camping spawns talking. Hell even the fins groups could be entertaining when people started getting delirious and nothing beat a darkness falls xp group after a 1/5 of capt. morgan. Again, you state there seem to be more asshole pvp'rs without any actual evidence of numbers, so I believe it's because you are intolerant of pvp'rs so naturally any little thing is going to resonate in your memory more from a pvp'r than a pve'r. Afterall, who are the people who have been throwing insults, namecalling, making assumptions, and generalizing a group of people in this thread,,, the pve'rs or the pvp'rs?
By the way, I saw your video about how respectful everyone was in the Galahad server, and you have to realize something, I'm takling about a DIFFERENT time.DAoC was great, that was back before MMOs were ruined by the players that typically play them today.DAoC was back when it WASN'T cool or popular to play MMORPGs, when it was way more fun because the people you met were all there to have fun and not ruin everyone else's time.Mine dislike for most PvPers comes from the ones who ARE NOT respectful, which are a good majority of them, there's no denying that. This is on topic, but sort of switching gears here, this is an example I use when I mention pvpers being major assholes.I got into the NA beta of Lineage 2, and I created my character, walked outside of the starter building, and there were two assholes with bow and arrows ganking people as they walked outside of the starter building. THOSE are the people I can't stand, and yes, I do firmly believe that makes up 80% of the PvP playerbase. Alas, this is my opinion, and it won't change, because there's just way too much griefing that goes on in online games nowadays.I believe DAoC id it perfectly, you level outside of PvP, then when you're ready and you've completely learned to play your class, you go out into the field and you start PvPing. If you got killed out there, it wasn't a big deal and there was no one to blame but YOURSELF. But lets face it, if DAoC came out today with open PvP across all servers, how easy do you think it'd be too level? How much griefing/ganking and headache would there be just to get to level 50 to reach the raids and relic raids? Probably a lot...different times, different players. And yes, ToA ruined DAoC with the artifacts.
I agree with almost everything you said here but I still think you need to look deeper than jsut pvp'rs because you know what else you didn't have PRE - TOA ? Selfish elitist pve lootwhores.
TOA , WOW, and every loot whoring game since has helped to create nurture and cater to this lifestyle.
Times are different, there are more assholes on both sides of the fence. So if you were to say daoc'rs today are worse, I"d agre wholeheartedly. But if you take a sampling of ALL gamers back then and now, you'd see a huge shift to the asshole meter. That's not pvp's fault, it's game companies creating bad systems that encourage that attitude,, basically blizzard, mythic, and others are enablers.
I agree with the (edited: I meant I agree with you about the) two guys shooting you (is annoying) but at the same time, you bought a game with an open pvp rule set. You can't say ok, I understand the rules,,, damnit those guys are at fault. They may be weaksauce, but that doesn't make them assholes. ( Of course I'm assuming there was some financial or xp benefi to ganking you, if not, than yeah they're probably assholes lol) But still the same you can't upset at getting ganked just like when you're in DF. You know the risk. People are going to clear you out so they can have DF to themself, or you're probably gonna be used as bait by a stealther so he can play cat and mouse with people. If you don't like the ruleset, don't buy the game. Make these companies who make bad design choices you don't like hear your voice with your wallet.
Also, I completely agree that the DaoC model is the only one that works when it comes to a PvE and PVP crowd co-existing.
I only like meat on my pizza and don't understand why other people put veggies on theirs. Vegatables belong in a salad, not on a pizza. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
To me PvP is fun due to the implied random factor. However as of late in the newer games that has all but disappeared because a lot of people tend to seek out the most "powerful" way of doing something that will give them the edge and use it. Thus you get the same experience in a fight versus 2 completely different people that play the same class.
Now when we look at PvE, I get a feeling of satisfaction when I down an encounter but usually only the first 2-3 times. After that it loses it's magic for me and I'd rather move on to something else. Repetition is what kills it for me. It might explain why I never really stay long in PvE only games. Once I see the content once or twice I tire of it and feel like moving on.
In the past I played MMO's for the interesting socal factor where I could converse with people half way around the world, from another country or just someone I'd more then likely never meet or wouldn't have met had it not been for said game. That's interesting to me. Because of mmo's like DAoC I've made life long friends that I see on a daily basis and I've also made friends that live a good 6 hours drive into another country and I still maintain contacts with them even when most of them have stopped playing games. I guess I just come from an older generation of gamer before loot was the main goal and rampant asshattery became the norm. Maybe it's why I'm becoming disenchanted with the whole genre and find it hard to look to the future when I see nothing interesting and constantly remember that the people playing now that I dislike will more then likely be in those future games. Lately I've found myself just playing games so that I could help people I get to know out by ways of crafting or just help leveling. Though I'm finding it harder and harder to find decent people that don't have a knee jerk reaction to everything I say or are "hair trigger" people waiting to go off on you for some minor slipup be it related to the game or not. I would have thought that the genre's population would naturally mature over time into respectable adults but I find more and more are regressing into adolescent behavior that I left back in grade 8 a long time ago.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
I like both PVE and PVP, as both have their moments.
And both get repetitive and boring after a while (on their own), so I switch my focus between to keep myself interested. Depends on game I guess, as PvP feels very "glued in" in some. Also balance suffers when you mix between, but I don't really care for perfect balance. Nice if you could achieve it, but I can live without, playing as the underdog when possible.
Imo a good MMORPG needs to have wide range of activities, not just because of wider audience, but also to keep those subscribers hooked. I don't think we're all purists here.
By the way, I saw your video about how respectful everyone was in the Galahad server, and you have to realize something, I'm takling about a DIFFERENT time.DAoC was great, that was back before MMOs were ruined by the players that typically play them today.DAoC was back when it WASN'T cool or popular to play MMORPGs, when it was way more fun because the people you met were all there to have fun and not ruin everyone else's time.Mine dislike for most PvPers comes from the ones who ARE NOT respectful, which are a good majority of them, there's no denying that. This is on topic, but sort of switching gears here, this is an example I use when I mention pvpers being major assholes.I got into the NA beta of Lineage 2, and I created my character, walked outside of the starter building, and there were two assholes with bow and arrows ganking people as they walked outside of the starter building. THOSE are the people I can't stand, and yes, I do firmly believe that makes up 80% of the PvP playerbase. Alas, this is my opinion, and it won't change, because there's just way too much griefing that goes on in online games nowadays.I believe DAoC id it perfectly, you level outside of PvP, then when you're ready and you've completely learned to play your class, you go out into the field and you start PvPing. If you got killed out there, it wasn't a big deal and there was no one to blame but YOURSELF. But lets face it, if DAoC came out today with open PvP across all servers, how easy do you think it'd be too level? How much griefing/ganking and headache would there be just to get to level 50 to reach the raids and relic raids? Probably a lot...different times, different players. And yes, ToA ruined DAoC with the artifacts.
I agree with almost everything you said here but I still think you need to look deeper than jsut pvp'rs because you know what else you didn't have PRE - TOA ? Selfish elitist pve lootwhores.
TOA , WOW, and every loot whoring game since has helped to create nurture and cater to this lifestyle.
Times are different, there are more assholes on both sides of the fence. So if you were to say daoc'rs today are worse, I"d agre wholeheartedly. But if you take a sampling of ALL gamers back then and now, you'd see a huge shift to the asshole meter. That's not pvp's fault, it's game companies creating bad systems that encourage that attitude,, basically blizzard, mythic, and others are enablers.
I agree with the (edited: I meant I agree with you about the) two guys shooting you (is annoying) but at the same time, you bought a game with an open pvp rule set. You can't say ok, I understand the rules,,, damnit those guys are at fault. They may be weaksauce, but that doesn't make them assholes. ( Of course I'm assuming there was some financial or xp benefi to ganking you, if not, than yeah they're probably assholes lol) But still the same you can't upset at getting ganked just like when you're in DF. You know the risk. People are going to clear you out so they can have DF to themself, or you're probably gonna be used as bait by a stealther so he can play cat and mouse with people. If you don't like the ruleset, don't buy the game. Make these companies who make bad design choices you don't like hear your voice with your wallet.
Also, I completely agree that the DaoC model is the only one that works when it comes to a PvE and PVP crowd co-existing.
Well, I used the Lineage 2 example because I think it stresses that people might not always know how bad itll actually be...I didnt buy it btw, it was just the beta. Which admittedly, was probably worse than the actual game because of the ones who dont want to pay.
Also, I dont have evidence for the numbers of PvPers being assholes, because I stated that its just my opinion.
From my history of MMOs and PvPers, you're one of the rare cases in the crowd, congratulate yourself .
I used to be a major PvPer though, and after what WoW has done to the crowd, I generally have trouble enjoying PvP anymore because its all too "e-sportish" now and not able just having fun whooping up on some people.
I'm glad we shifted towards a more civilized manner :P
That's why I don't get why there's so much PvE focus in games. With focus I mean everything from gameplay, restrctions on PvP, pure PvE servers.
Inzre,
I don't know if the statistics still hold true today but back around 2004/2005, they polled MMO players and it was a small percentage that did PvP in their respective games.!
It was either 13% or 15 %. I was surprised because I thought it would have been much larger- like 30 or 40%.
The Devs probably put their most work into the PvE side because that's where 85%-87% of us play.
That's why I don't get why there's so much PvE focus in games. With focus I mean everything from gameplay, restrctions on PvP, pure PvE servers.
Inzre,
I don't know if the statistics still hold true today but back around 2004/2005, they polled MMO players and it was a small percentage that did PvP in their respective games.!
It was either 13% or 15 %. I was surprised because I thought it would have been much larger- like 30 or 40%.
The Devs probably put their most work into the PvE side because that's where 85%-87% of us play.
Actually if you look at the polls here on this site the opposite is true. Most players want some sort of PvP focus in a game.
Actually if you look at the polls here on this site the opposite is true. Most players want some sort of PvP focus in a game.
This site represents maybe 1% of 1% of the overall MMO population, and we are all pompous ass holes with nothing better to do then troll forums.
We are the vocal minority.
The Devs may listen to us sometimes, when we actually have a good idea, but most of the time it's /ignore and they use their own internal metrics and stuff to figure out what the real "average" gamer wants.
Well, I used the Lineage 2 example because I think it stresses that people might not always know how bad itll actually be...I didnt buy it btw, it was just the beta. Which admittedly, was probably worse than the actual game because of the ones who dont want to pay. Ok, so you had ONE encounter in beta that was bad. And you even admit, it could have been because it was the beta. Every time you logged on did you have this problem? More than half the time you logged on were you ganked in the starting zone? Or was it, THAT one experience stood out in your mind and you've exaggerated the frequency of pvp'rs actually being asshats to you? Also, I dont have evidence for the numbers of PvPers being assholes, because I stated that its just my opinion.From my history of MMOs and PvPers, you're one of the rare cases in the crowd, congratulate yourself . From my history of MMO's I"m one of the average people in the crowd, I deserve no congratulations. I used to be a major PvPer though, and after what WoW has done to the crowd, I generally have trouble enjoying PvP anymore because its all too "e-sportish" now and not able just having fun whooping up on some people. So again,,, the changes in pvp are more due to WoW? I agree wholeheartedly. WoW has crappy pvp. The style and settings that WoW uses for it's pvp enable and create crappy attitudes and sefish players. At the same time, what's to say people who go around ganking aren't just having fun whooping up on some people? So if you used to be a major pvp'r would you consider yourself an a-hole or one o the rare cases? YOu don't sound like one to me at all but the more and more I read your comments I honestly just think you are jaded by the new gamers altogether and that because of the rat race of gear/power tilting the balance you are shifting the blame to pvp and it's participants and not to the people who deserve it. The developers that create OP"d loot whoring items which are not readily available to all creating a more level playing field. I'm glad we shifted towards a more civilized manner :P Yes I'm glad the anti-pvp'rs that have made rude, insulting comments, and statemens of bigotry in this thread have stopped posting or been more civilized as well.
That's why I don't get why there's so much PvE focus in games. With focus I mean everything from gameplay, restrctions on PvP, pure PvE servers.
Inzre,
I don't know if the statistics still hold true today but back around 2004/2005, they polled MMO players and it was a small percentage that did PvP in their respective games.!
It was either 13% or 15 %. I was surprised because I thought it would have been much larger- like 30 or 40%.
The Devs probably put their most work into the PvE side because that's where 85%-87% of us play.
Actually if you look at the polls here on this site the opposite is true. Most players want some sort of PvP focus in a game.
I flat out refuse to believe that the majority of MMO players want PvP focus in a game. In every MMO I've seen that has both servers, PvP servers always have a lower pop. In MMOs with PvP zones, they are always the least populated.
It's not that I don't like grouping and doing a dungeon or group objective of some sort... and crafting is also fun. I even like to rp. it's fun when you down a boss for the first time, or just succeeds with a team against all odds, but... I don't really raid, I rarely get there since I tend to move on to some other game or spend time trying too many classes or something. So my PvE experince is usally from grouping before endgame. I do a groupobjective for a certain level a few times, but then I move on to leveling - so I don't really understand it when people say "Do it again?" for the nth time. To me the ultimate challenge in these games is allways PvP, especially against different enemies every time, cause then you don't see their weaknesses by observing them over several battles. To me that's alot more thrilling to win a PvP battle. That's why I don't get why there's so much PvE focus in games. With focus I mean everything from gameplay, restrctions on PvP, pure PvE servers. ...I suck at PvP btw...
You are trying to convince yourself the ultimate is PVP,but in a MMORPG it is not even close to anything skillful.
I can give one simple example,i tire of this type of thread popping up a lot.
Do you honestly think weaknesses matter?Most decently smart players already know by the armour/weapon you carry,what your weakness is.This is actually LESS truthfull in a PVE game,but often does meet the same result.I do not think there is a game out there that utilizes weaknesses in any fashion such as a flame retardant suit agaisnt a flame hurling nuker.
Do you think it is hard as a mage to know you need to bind that melee player?do you need to think at all in knowing you must hit your best nuke spell and try to keep a safe distance?EVERY class is VERY easy to play in a PVP setting.You do not have to thinkat all if you are a level 25 PVP'ing a level 15,try that in a PVE game and you get ZERO rewards,no xp,no challenge nothing comes from it at all.
A good PVE game wil loften have their mobs with many abilties and spells that keep a party thinking,once you know your opponent in PVP,you can eliminate 90% of the games spells /abilities to just that one class.PVP becomes more a speed mashing macro game than a good PVE game that has slower combat and more thinking and reaction.I wil ladmit PVP has a lot of thinking and reaction,but things happen so fast it becomes more a battle of healing pots/healing to outlast damage.
Group PVP is just so unbalanced,it does not deserve any of my time to begin with,but i strrongly believe most PVP players do not want balance or challenge,they want the upper hand to guarantee a win,it can almost be compared to a PVP player needing an aimbot in a FPS game,they NEED to win even if the advantage is ridiculous.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I like PVP when it's in controled environnement like Wow BG & Arena. However i would never play on a PVP server when anyone can come to you and kill you just because they can. I play game to have fun, not to get pissed off and lose my time cause some idiots think it's fun to kill and camp you for hours.
Originally posted by Greenie Actually if you look at the polls here on this site the opposite is true. Most players want some sort of PvP focus in a game.
I flat out refuse to believe that the majority of MMO players want PvP focus in a game. In every MMO I've seen that has both servers, PvP servers always have a lower pop. In MMOs with PvP zones, they are always the least populated.
REad my post again. If you look at the POLLS HERE . Most players want SOME sort of pvp focus.
ON the poll here of over 4000 people only 15% chose the option that had PVE Only in it. Every other person chose and option that included some sort of pvp. They wanted the developers to have vayring degrees of focus, but they wanted some aspect of it altogether.
You can believe that the majority of player's don't want pvp focus in a game but Blizzard the giant keeps adding more and more pvp content in it's game. PVE games such as LotR continue to add pvp to game. Every major MMO coming out to date is adding more and more pvp as a focus to their games. Warhammer online got 1 milion in box sales because it advertised as a pvp focused game and when it was shown to be a bunch of crap and endgame was pve focused,, they lost 3/4 of their players base and quite possibly even more. If the trend of people who want pvp was not on the rise, you wouldn't see the shift of effort by developers to include it more and more in their games.
So if you see a girl with a guy or pursuing a guy you like, do you still flirt with him? Do you try to outperform people at your job so you get a better position and more money? Have you ever tried to win an argument? Ever played monopoly, checkers, chess, poker, gin, or an organized sport? To try and connect in game violence and real life violence is a very weak comparison. As for the underlined comment,, this is why I always agree with having a PVE zone and a PVP zone seperate in games that are not a full freeforall pvp loot type game. DaoC's frontier's being the best example.
To answer your questions:
no (I flirt in games since there isn't much opportunity in RL - most guys are taken at this age range heh... 40ies)
no (I've never actually applied for the positions, they were offered... though I don't like high positions, I like to be on the level where I'm in touch with the real doings. That's why I usually come back to the trainer positions after a while.)
no (I hate to argue - my ex hated me for it since I didn't argue with him)
I have learned chess when I was young but don't play any of those things, e.g. I didn't like monopoly since my ex was always right.
When you kill an NPC it doesn't spew profanities at you over /tells
That is a problem with the pvp design and another reason I"m in favor of the daoc system. YOu could NOT communicate with people from the opposing faction without use of a 3rd party program.
At the same time, if you are in the bg's there are generally 16+ people fighting. Does every one of them really send out profane tells or is it just one or two asshats that think they're special.....
Originally posted by Inzra That's why I don't get why there's so much PvE focus in games. With focus I mean everything from gameplay, restrctions on PvP, pure PvE servers. ...I suck at PvP btw...
As has been stated tons of times before this, PvP players are, atm anyway, a minority. They are loud and vocal but they are still in fewer numbers than PvE players. That's why games focus more on PvE....money.
Z
This is the case. The largest servers in WoW are almost all PvE servers. However, PvE players tend to be more casual as well. Thus in WoW the huge PvE servers tend not to have the highest rates of progression. PvP players tend to be louder and more into the games but far fewer in number.
Originally posted by Inzra That's why I don't get why there's so much PvE focus in games. With focus I mean everything from gameplay, restrctions on PvP, pure PvE servers. ...I suck at PvP btw...
As has been stated tons of times before this, PvP players are, atm anyway, a minority. They are loud and vocal but they are still in fewer numbers than PvE players. That's why games focus more on PvE....money.
Z
This is the case. The largest servers in WoW are almost all PvE servers. However, PvE players tend to be more casual as well. Thus in WoW the huge PvE servers tend not to have the highest rates of progression. PvP players tend to be louder and more into the games but far fewer in number.
Do the PvE servers allow for duels and battlegrounds ? Are you sure that there are less pve'rs or it isn't that there are more people who prefer to have their PvE and PvP experience seperated?
To understand PvE, I think its important to look at the roots of it. Before most players called it PvE, there were games called SRPG's. Many players arrived at MMO's from this genre back in the early years. Many of us still play these types of games today. But I think more experienced gamers have a preference that is directly related to the game, understanding that certain MMO's are built better around one aspect or the other. Generally when I hear PvE, I think more about the journey than the destination. And vice versa for PvP.
Actually I used to call it PONG. To say I don't enjoy pve would be to say I don't like single player console games which would be a lie. I loved Legacy of Kain, Soul Reaver, Metal Gear Solid, Resident Evil, hell I loved Bard's Tale 1 for the pc years ago, but I liked the story, and with these console games at least I get a nice movie to watch at every chapter.
It really comes down to compaines have not done anything really exciting with the pve concept in quite a while. Mythic got kudos for their PQ's but if you look at how missions have been run in City of Heroes for awhile you'd see it's the same basic mechanic.
One action triggers and event that causes another action to trigger an event and so on. It's still not all that entertaining at the moment, but when some developer takes the time to break the mold , it will be.
Against my better judgement, I'm actually going to reply to this...albeit your PONG joke was funny, that game has absolutely no roots in roleplaying....but funny.
I beg to differ that nothing exciting has happend to PvE in awhile, and I also don't agree that the mold needs to be "broken". I rather consider it an evolutionary process, which may have up's and down's -- or variations if you will. But then again, your "awhile" might be six months. I have no idea how long you have been alive, nor did you state a period of time to include in your discussion. There are always games that will add (or detract) from story driven quest systems. Hence, I placed the importance on knowing where these systems came from. Most elements of modern day questing, MMO or not, can be found in earlier games. Not always, but most of the time.
So while most want to argue about innovation, or pit PvE vs PvP, that's fine. I am just answering the OP's question. You want to understand a PvE player? Go play a couple good story driven RPG's...
Against my better judgement, I'm actually going to reply to this...albeit your PONG joke was funny, that game has absolutely no roots in roleplaying....but funny.
I beg to differ that nothing exciting has happend to PvE in awhile, and I also don't agree that the mold needs to be "broken". I rather consider it an evolutionary process, which may have up's and down's -- or variations if you will. But then again, your "awhile" might be six months. I have no idea how long you have been alive, nor did you state a period of time to include in your discussion. There are always games that will add (or detract) from story driven quest systems. Hence, I placed the importance on knowing where these systems came from. Most elements of modern day questing, MMO or not, can be found in earlier games. Not always, but most of the time. So while most want to argue about innovation, or pit PvE vs PvP, that's fine. I am just answering the OP's question. You want to understand a PvE player? Go play a couple good story driven RPG's...
Yea my joke about pong was more on the pve side than the rpg side, just because of the singleplayer setting lol.
Anyways, I do consider it an evolutionary process to a degree as well but their can be great leaps in short amounts of time. Take DaoC. Before daoc there were no RvR games. The concept was somewhat revolutionary. Although much of the game followed traditional mmorpg concepts and designs, that one aspect of it was completely different. ( For the record I"m 38 lol)
I"m all about a story based game. That is what I loved about other games I've mentioned, Legacy of Kain, Resident Evil, etc..
The problem is most quests in games are pretty shoddy. Go kill 10 rats. Hey I need you to deliver a letter to this guy. Oh a letter for me, can you bring him a bottle of wine? Talk to this guy in this town he'll give you the wine then you can travel back let me know you got the wine and then take it to my friend..
I'm very interested in seeing how Bioware incorporates this story driven system with choices. It would be nice if during an epic quest I did get to experience cutscenes simillar to all the pre-release hype CG animated videos.
But you're also lumping in all PvE'rs with story driven RPGs.. There are some people who just like to bang and kill mobs all day and could care less about the story.
Comments
How about we reword your comments but keep it in the same context?
Sure PvE can be a lot of fun. DaoC was still some of the most fun in an MMO when camping. Nowadays, it's all about being the best (LOOT) The PVE"rs can't ever let the PvP'rs have their own game without getting pissed off if PvE isn't the main focus. THEN, when PvE isn't the main focuse, and people decide they want to raid a relic or keep and not PvE, the PvE'rs take it personally and decide to insult the others, who are just trying to play a damn game.
To me, it's as simple as this. When playing through a grand RPG or adventure, don't you ever feel like "man, that'd be cool if I could've fought that group with some friends? That's why I like PvP.. I like the adventure with my friends, not worrying about staying on top and being competitive with all the other lootwhoring jerks.
And to be honest,, most of the insults and name calling in this thread has come from pve'rs and anti-pvp'rs.
How about we reword your comments but keep it in the same context?
Sure PvE can be a lot of fun. DaoC was still some of the most fun in an MMO when camping. Nowadays, it's all about being the best (LOOT) The PVE"rs can't ever let the PvP'rs have their own game without getting pissed off if PvE isn't the main focus. THEN, when PvE isn't the main focuse, and people decide they want to raid a relic or keep and not PvE, the PvE'rs take it personally and decide to insult the others, who are just trying to play a damn game.
To me, it's as simple as this. When playing through a grand RPG or adventure, don't you ever feel like "man, that'd be cool if I could've fought that group with some friends? That's why I like PvP.. I like the adventure with my friends, not worrying about staying on top and being competitive with all the other lootwhoring jerks.
And to be honest,, most of the insults and name calling in this thread has come from pve'rs and anti-pvp'rs.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Typically, you don't see PvEr's asking for PvP to be a major part of the game, but then you'll get PvPer's who jump into a game that's all about PvE and they'll constantly spout out "this game would be so much better if it had PvP, I'd play if it had PvP, its fun, but it doesn't have PvP. I can't believe you guys don't want PvP, you all just hate having to fight REAL opponents".
That's the attitude I try to stay away from.
I never said PvEr's couldn't be assholes, there are elitists on both sides. I can't stand elitists anywhere, but there are way more PvP elitists than PvE imo. Yes, PvE elitists are major "lootwhoring jerks", with their stupid DKP system and "minus 50 DKP" nonsense, but thats what I try to stay away from.
Frankly, the PvEr's are probably sick and tired of all the BS and nonsense they have to deal with in game. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy PvP and PvE. What I don't like, is when people talk down to you for not wanting to PvP, and say you have no skill, when all you want to do is work together with some friends to take down a boss. Its fun, never said PvP wasn't fun, its just not everyones cup of tea.
By the way, thanks for assuming that I liked to "camp" in DAoC. To be honest, the only camping I ever remember was hearing the twang of an bow launching an arrow from the trees as I tried to run to the nearest defense or attack. Luckily for me I played a Friar.
Again, there is going to be assholes on both sides, the ones who take raiding too seriously, and the ones who take PvP too seriously. But like I previously stated, there seems to be more PvPing assholes than PvErs.
By the way, I saw your video about how respectful everyone was in the Galahad server, and you have to realize something, I'm takling about a DIFFERENT time.
DAoC was great, that was back before MMOs were ruined by the players that typically play them today.
DAoC was back when it WASN'T cool or popular to play MMORPGs, when it was way more fun because the people you met were all there to have fun and not ruin everyone else's time.
Now, don't get me wrong, this happened A LOT in Pre-Trammel UO, or heck, Post-Trammel UO it still happened in Felucca. But that game WANTED you to be a scoundrel if you played in that world, you HAD to be to exist in that world. It was rare to meet someone nice and decent outside of trammel, because the game wanted you to survive on your own or with a band of friends, and THAT was cool and fine.
Unfortunately, WoW has changed a lot of the players of MMOs and that is upsetting. When most people say they can't stand PvPers, you've got to understand its usually because they played WoW on a PvP server and have too much bottled up anger towards getting griefed all the time.
Mine dislike for most PvPers comes from the ones who ARE NOT respectful, which are a good majority of them, there's no denying that.
This is on topic, but sort of switching gears here, this is an example I use when I mention pvpers being major assholes.
I played the Korean beta of Lineage 2 a long time ago, similar to the way people were playing the Chinese version of Aion. I leveled with some friends I met on there for a good bit, went from 1-30. Ran into people left and right, and not once did I get ganked, attacked, or griefed.
I got into the NA beta of Lineage 2, and I created my character, walked outside of the starter building, and there were two assholes with bow and arrows ganking people as they walked outside of the starter building.
THOSE are the people I can't stand, and yes, I do firmly believe that makes up 80% of the PvP playerbase. Alas, this is my opinion, and it won't change, because there's just way too much griefing that goes on in online games nowadays.
I believe DAoC did it perfectly, you level outside of PvP, then when you're ready and you've completely learned to play your class, you go out into the field and you start PvPing. If you got killed out there, it wasn't a big deal and there was no one to blame but YOURSELF. But lets face it, if DAoC came out today with open PvP across all servers, how easy do you think it'd be too level? How much griefing/ganking and headache would there be just to get to level 50 to reach the raids and relic raids?
Probably a lot...different times, different players.
And yes, ToA ruined DAoC with the artifacts.
I agree with almost everything you said here but I still think you need to look deeper than jsut pvp'rs because you know what else you didn't have PRE - TOA ? Selfish elitist pve lootwhores.
TOA , WOW, and every loot whoring game since has helped to create nurture and cater to this lifestyle.
Times are different, there are more assholes on both sides of the fence. So if you were to say daoc'rs today are worse, I"d agre wholeheartedly. But if you take a sampling of ALL gamers back then and now, you'd see a huge shift to the asshole meter. That's not pvp's fault, it's game companies creating bad systems that encourage that attitude,, basically blizzard, mythic, and others are enablers.
I agree with the (edited: I meant I agree with you about the) two guys shooting you (is annoying) but at the same time, you bought a game with an open pvp rule set. You can't say ok, I understand the rules,,, damnit those guys are at fault. They may be weaksauce, but that doesn't make them assholes. ( Of course I'm assuming there was some financial or xp benefi to ganking you, if not, than yeah they're probably assholes lol) But still the same you can't upset at getting ganked just like when you're in DF. You know the risk. People are going to clear you out so they can have DF to themself, or you're probably gonna be used as bait by a stealther so he can play cat and mouse with people. If you don't like the ruleset, don't buy the game. Make these companies who make bad design choices you don't like hear your voice with your wallet.
Also, I completely agree that the DaoC model is the only one that works when it comes to a PvE and PVP crowd co-existing.
I only like meat on my pizza and don't understand why other people put veggies on theirs. Vegatables belong in a salad, not on a pizza. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
To me PvP is fun due to the implied random factor. However as of late in the newer games that has all but disappeared because a lot of people tend to seek out the most "powerful" way of doing something that will give them the edge and use it. Thus you get the same experience in a fight versus 2 completely different people that play the same class.
Now when we look at PvE, I get a feeling of satisfaction when I down an encounter but usually only the first 2-3 times. After that it loses it's magic for me and I'd rather move on to something else. Repetition is what kills it for me. It might explain why I never really stay long in PvE only games. Once I see the content once or twice I tire of it and feel like moving on.
In the past I played MMO's for the interesting socal factor where I could converse with people half way around the world, from another country or just someone I'd more then likely never meet or wouldn't have met had it not been for said game. That's interesting to me. Because of mmo's like DAoC I've made life long friends that I see on a daily basis and I've also made friends that live a good 6 hours drive into another country and I still maintain contacts with them even when most of them have stopped playing games. I guess I just come from an older generation of gamer before loot was the main goal and rampant asshattery became the norm. Maybe it's why I'm becoming disenchanted with the whole genre and find it hard to look to the future when I see nothing interesting and constantly remember that the people playing now that I dislike will more then likely be in those future games. Lately I've found myself just playing games so that I could help people I get to know out by ways of crafting or just help leveling. Though I'm finding it harder and harder to find decent people that don't have a knee jerk reaction to everything I say or are "hair trigger" people waiting to go off on you for some minor slipup be it related to the game or not. I would have thought that the genre's population would naturally mature over time into respectable adults but I find more and more are regressing into adolescent behavior that I left back in grade 8 a long time ago.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
And I don't like PvE because raiding brings out the worst in people.
MMO Strategy Guides
I like both PVE and PVP, as both have their moments.
And both get repetitive and boring after a while (on their own), so I switch my focus between to keep myself interested. Depends on game I guess, as PvP feels very "glued in" in some. Also balance suffers when you mix between, but I don't really care for perfect balance. Nice if you could achieve it, but I can live without, playing as the underdog when possible.
Imo a good MMORPG needs to have wide range of activities, not just because of wider audience, but also to keep those subscribers hooked. I don't think we're all purists here.
I agree with almost everything you said here but I still think you need to look deeper than jsut pvp'rs because you know what else you didn't have PRE - TOA ? Selfish elitist pve lootwhores.
TOA , WOW, and every loot whoring game since has helped to create nurture and cater to this lifestyle.
Times are different, there are more assholes on both sides of the fence. So if you were to say daoc'rs today are worse, I"d agre wholeheartedly. But if you take a sampling of ALL gamers back then and now, you'd see a huge shift to the asshole meter. That's not pvp's fault, it's game companies creating bad systems that encourage that attitude,, basically blizzard, mythic, and others are enablers.
I agree with the (edited: I meant I agree with you about the) two guys shooting you (is annoying) but at the same time, you bought a game with an open pvp rule set. You can't say ok, I understand the rules,,, damnit those guys are at fault. They may be weaksauce, but that doesn't make them assholes. ( Of course I'm assuming there was some financial or xp benefi to ganking you, if not, than yeah they're probably assholes lol) But still the same you can't upset at getting ganked just like when you're in DF. You know the risk. People are going to clear you out so they can have DF to themself, or you're probably gonna be used as bait by a stealther so he can play cat and mouse with people. If you don't like the ruleset, don't buy the game. Make these companies who make bad design choices you don't like hear your voice with your wallet.
Also, I completely agree that the DaoC model is the only one that works when it comes to a PvE and PVP crowd co-existing.
Well, I used the Lineage 2 example because I think it stresses that people might not always know how bad itll actually be...I didnt buy it btw, it was just the beta. Which admittedly, was probably worse than the actual game because of the ones who dont want to pay.
Also, I dont have evidence for the numbers of PvPers being assholes, because I stated that its just my opinion.
From my history of MMOs and PvPers, you're one of the rare cases in the crowd, congratulate yourself
.
I used to be a major PvPer though, and after what WoW has done to the crowd, I generally have trouble enjoying PvP anymore because its all too "e-sportish" now and not able just having fun whooping up on some people.
I'm glad we shifted towards a more civilized manner :P
Inzre,
I don't know if the statistics still hold true today but back around 2004/2005, they polled MMO players and it was a small percentage that did PvP in their respective games.!
It was either 13% or 15 %. I was surprised because I thought it would have been much larger- like 30 or 40%.
The Devs probably put their most work into the PvE side because that's where 85%-87% of us play.
Inzre,
I don't know if the statistics still hold true today but back around 2004/2005, they polled MMO players and it was a small percentage that did PvP in their respective games.!
It was either 13% or 15 %. I was surprised because I thought it would have been much larger- like 30 or 40%.
The Devs probably put their most work into the PvE side because that's where 85%-87% of us play.
Actually if you look at the polls here on this site the opposite is true. Most players want some sort of PvP focus in a game.
This site represents maybe 1% of 1% of the overall MMO population, and we are all pompous ass holes with nothing better to do then troll forums.
We are the vocal minority.
The Devs may listen to us sometimes, when we actually have a good idea, but most of the time it's /ignore and they use their own internal metrics and stuff to figure out what the real "average" gamer wants.
Your opinion is immaterial.
When you kill an NPC it doesn't spew profanities at you over /tells
Inzre,
I don't know if the statistics still hold true today but back around 2004/2005, they polled MMO players and it was a small percentage that did PvP in their respective games.!
It was either 13% or 15 %. I was surprised because I thought it would have been much larger- like 30 or 40%.
The Devs probably put their most work into the PvE side because that's where 85%-87% of us play.
Actually if you look at the polls here on this site the opposite is true. Most players want some sort of PvP focus in a game.
I flat out refuse to believe that the majority of MMO players want PvP focus in a game. In every MMO I've seen that has both servers, PvP servers always have a lower pop. In MMOs with PvP zones, they are always the least populated.
You are trying to convince yourself the ultimate is PVP,but in a MMORPG it is not even close to anything skillful.
I can give one simple example,i tire of this type of thread popping up a lot.
Do you honestly think weaknesses matter?Most decently smart players already know by the armour/weapon you carry,what your weakness is.This is actually LESS truthfull in a PVE game,but often does meet the same result.I do not think there is a game out there that utilizes weaknesses in any fashion such as a flame retardant suit agaisnt a flame hurling nuker.
Do you think it is hard as a mage to know you need to bind that melee player?do you need to think at all in knowing you must hit your best nuke spell and try to keep a safe distance?EVERY class is VERY easy to play in a PVP setting.You do not have to thinkat all if you are a level 25 PVP'ing a level 15,try that in a PVE game and you get ZERO rewards,no xp,no challenge nothing comes from it at all.
A good PVE game wil loften have their mobs with many abilties and spells that keep a party thinking,once you know your opponent in PVP,you can eliminate 90% of the games spells /abilities to just that one class.PVP becomes more a speed mashing macro game than a good PVE game that has slower combat and more thinking and reaction.I wil ladmit PVP has a lot of thinking and reaction,but things happen so fast it becomes more a battle of healing pots/healing to outlast damage.
Group PVP is just so unbalanced,it does not deserve any of my time to begin with,but i strrongly believe most PVP players do not want balance or challenge,they want the upper hand to guarantee a win,it can almost be compared to a PVP player needing an aimbot in a FPS game,they NEED to win even if the advantage is ridiculous.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I like PVP when it's in controled environnement like Wow BG & Arena. However i would never play on a PVP server when anyone can come to you and kill you just because they can. I play game to have fun, not to get pissed off and lose my time cause some idiots think it's fun to kill and camp you for hours.
I flat out refuse to believe that the majority of MMO players want PvP focus in a game. In every MMO I've seen that has both servers, PvP servers always have a lower pop. In MMOs with PvP zones, they are always the least populated.
REad my post again. If you look at the POLLS HERE . Most players want SOME sort of pvp focus.
ON the poll here of over 4000 people only 15% chose the option that had PVE Only in it. Every other person chose and option that included some sort of pvp. They wanted the developers to have vayring degrees of focus, but they wanted some aspect of it altogether.
You can believe that the majority of player's don't want pvp focus in a game but Blizzard the giant keeps adding more and more pvp content in it's game. PVE games such as LotR continue to add pvp to game. Every major MMO coming out to date is adding more and more pvp as a focus to their games. Warhammer online got 1 milion in box sales because it advertised as a pvp focused game and when it was shown to be a bunch of crap and endgame was pve focused,, they lost 3/4 of their players base and quite possibly even more. If the trend of people who want pvp was not on the rise, you wouldn't see the shift of effort by developers to include it more and more in their games.
To answer your questions:
no (I flirt in games since there isn't much opportunity in RL - most guys are taken at this age range heh... 40ies)
no (I've never actually applied for the positions, they were offered... though I don't like high positions, I like to be on the level where I'm in touch with the real doings. That's why I usually come back to the trainer positions after a while.)
no (I hate to argue - my ex hated me for it since I didn't argue with him)
I have learned chess when I was young but don't play any of those things, e.g. I didn't like monopoly since my ex was always right.
That is a problem with the pvp design and another reason I"m in favor of the daoc system. YOu could NOT communicate with people from the opposing faction without use of a 3rd party program.
At the same time, if you are in the bg's there are generally 16+ people fighting. Does every one of them really send out profane tells or is it just one or two asshats that think they're special.....
That is also what the /ignore function is for.
As has been stated tons of times before this, PvP players are, atm anyway, a minority. They are loud and vocal but they are still in fewer numbers than PvE players. That's why games focus more on PvE....money.
Z
This is the case. The largest servers in WoW are almost all PvE servers. However, PvE players tend to be more casual as well. Thus in WoW the huge PvE servers tend not to have the highest rates of progression. PvP players tend to be louder and more into the games but far fewer in number.
As has been stated tons of times before this, PvP players are, atm anyway, a minority. They are loud and vocal but they are still in fewer numbers than PvE players. That's why games focus more on PvE....money.
Z
This is the case. The largest servers in WoW are almost all PvE servers. However, PvE players tend to be more casual as well. Thus in WoW the huge PvE servers tend not to have the highest rates of progression. PvP players tend to be louder and more into the games but far fewer in number.
Do the PvE servers allow for duels and battlegrounds ? Are you sure that there are less pve'rs or it isn't that there are more people who prefer to have their PvE and PvP experience seperated?
Actually I used to call it PONG. To say I don't enjoy pve would be to say I don't like single player console games which would be a lie. I loved Legacy of Kain, Soul Reaver, Metal Gear Solid, Resident Evil, hell I loved Bard's Tale 1 for the pc years ago, but I liked the story, and with these console games at least I get a nice movie to watch at every chapter.
It really comes down to compaines have not done anything really exciting with the pve concept in quite a while. Mythic got kudos for their PQ's but if you look at how missions have been run in City of Heroes for awhile you'd see it's the same basic mechanic.
One action triggers and event that causes another action to trigger an event and so on. It's still not all that entertaining at the moment, but when some developer takes the time to break the mold , it will be.
Against my better judgement, I'm actually going to reply to this...albeit your PONG joke was funny, that game has absolutely no roots in roleplaying....but funny.
I beg to differ that nothing exciting has happend to PvE in awhile, and I also don't agree that the mold needs to be "broken". I rather consider it an evolutionary process, which may have up's and down's -- or variations if you will. But then again, your "awhile" might be six months. I have no idea how long you have been alive, nor did you state a period of time to include in your discussion. There are always games that will add (or detract) from story driven quest systems. Hence, I placed the importance on knowing where these systems came from. Most elements of modern day questing, MMO or not, can be found in earlier games. Not always, but most of the time.
So while most want to argue about innovation, or pit PvE vs PvP, that's fine. I am just answering the OP's question. You want to understand a PvE player? Go play a couple good story driven RPG's...
Yea my joke about pong was more on the pve side than the rpg side, just because of the singleplayer setting lol.
Anyways, I do consider it an evolutionary process to a degree as well but their can be great leaps in short amounts of time. Take DaoC. Before daoc there were no RvR games. The concept was somewhat revolutionary. Although much of the game followed traditional mmorpg concepts and designs, that one aspect of it was completely different. ( For the record I"m 38 lol)
I"m all about a story based game. That is what I loved about other games I've mentioned, Legacy of Kain, Resident Evil, etc..
The problem is most quests in games are pretty shoddy. Go kill 10 rats. Hey I need you to deliver a letter to this guy. Oh a letter for me, can you bring him a bottle of wine? Talk to this guy in this town he'll give you the wine then you can travel back let me know you got the wine and then take it to my friend..
I'm very interested in seeing how Bioware incorporates this story driven system with choices. It would be nice if during an epic quest I did get to experience cutscenes simillar to all the pre-release hype CG animated videos.
But you're also lumping in all PvE'rs with story driven RPGs.. There are some people who just like to bang and kill mobs all day and could care less about the story.