They're suppose to be selling entertainment, not a buisness model. Take away the social draw of MMO's and what exactly do you have left? Half-assed games that can't even begin to compete with single player games. So, their justification for making more money than single player games is what.......chat channels? These companies already make large profits with a subscription model. More than enough to pay overhead and produce more content. What exactly are they doing to increase the entertainment value to justify charging more money? Um, it's called basic logic. If games with 300k or less subs weren't making a profit, they would shut down, period. EQ, DAoC, WAR, SWG, EQ2 are all making money, yet have less than 300k subscribers and had large costs. Not only are these games still making profits, but they can afford to come out with monthly updates and content patches. These MMO companies aren't doing us any favors, we are the ones doing them favors and they need to remember that. Screw the consumer enough and you end up bankrupt. Captialism is a two way street.
I merged the 2 quotes for the sake of being concise.
DAOC has been running on a skeleton crew for years. Their servers are out of date by todays standards, and even if they weren't, they consolidated their servers and do not require anywhere near the technical resources on the backend that more modern ones do.
WAR had to cut staff, and unfortunately they started with their CSRs and GMs. They cut staff they cut non-essential backend personnel. They cut whatever they needed to bring them back into the black.
EQ is probably the same case as DAOC, but I don't honestly know about EQ, EQ2 or SWG.
Have you ever run a bootleg server? I've helped run servers for WoW and other games, and the tech expenses and bandwidth(and we had it co-located at a data warehouse, and got a really really good deal on it) were insane, not to mention the time it took, and we only had a couple of hundred users. I think you are mistaking revenue for profit. While these companies have huge revenue, they might only have marginal profit. In fact, you can see this yourself by the fact that Mythic had to cut CSRs and support staff in order to stay in the black. Its a big problem. The more money they are bringing in, the more resources they can field. And while everyone hopes that their game will be the next WoW and have millions of subs, it is unrealistic to plan for that. If they assume they will get 250k subs stable over the long term, the question is how much of a deficit does that put them at given the level of service and development they want to maintain. Not to mention the fact that they start at a deficit cause they have put out millions up-front, which has to be recouped.
So, things you are overlooking in point form:
-Tech Expenses and Bandwidth costs(for a company like blizzard I could see that running into the millions easily.
-Salary for developers and enough CSRs that people feel they are being looked after.
-Starting deficit from development costs.
-Estimated stable subs(they will not assume they are going to stay at even 500k or 1mil. For a projection they will sit at a conservative number).
-Surplus(what you call excessive profit) is used to fund development of new games.
There are probably more points, but I am at work and can't dedicate enough time and mental effort to fill it out more.
These are not privately owned companies. Its not like they have 1 owner who just pockets the profits at the end.
I know a lot of you are justifying this saying they need money. JUST STOP JUSTIFYING THIS BS NOW. It's not OK. No item shops are ok.
Because just like collectible card games, it's no longer a game but a who has the most money contest. I can't believe anyone would justify playing a game like this, or collectible card games, seriously how stupid can you be? I will never purchase or play for free a game with microtransactions. Because once you introduce microtransactions it's no longer a game, it's something else.
Nonsense. Look at your above if we change just one word; "Its no longer a game but about who has the most TIME contest." Some people don't have endless amounts of time to spend on their games. Games with cash shops can be just as entertaining as those without. In fact, if they are done right, they enhance the game. MT's *ARE* coming to more and more games in the future. One has only to look at the reality of the demographics and the profits to be made to know that. Those who get hysterical about them, are going to end up with fewer and fewer games to play.
But i like meny other's would argue that my monthly subscription covers that cost and all those extra's they should be in the game as i pay a monthly fee , If there was no box price i wouldnt care about it , But being charged for costume parts etc for a game that's selling point is "make a superhero be uniqe" ow but if you want this really cool stuff thats extra, We only make boring generic stuff for the monthly subscribers, If you really want to stand out pay me 4.99 for this set of cool outfits zomg. No thanks, i aint going to touch this game now.
Sigh, another game down the drain. I don't like being drained of my money, and I really don't like it when they are so obvious about it. I really can't see this type of payment model going mainstream when it comes to paying a month fee, and then paying extra for items you should be getting by playing, not paying.
So sad, too bad.
Actually it can very easily become mainstream.
Do you have cable? Do you pay a monthly fee? Do you pay a little extra for special movies or to add an additional premium channel?
As far as games go, there is already a precedence. There is a secondary market for games with monthly fees. So someone is paying a monthly fee and still paying to use the secondary market.
This is why it's so hard for game companies to ignore. Players keep saying they don't want any rmt but the evidence points to the opposite.
Totally agree and think its was a terrific analogy. I pay 100 bucks plus per month for cable TV, but they are more than willing to charge me extra for pay per view, special events, extra DVR's etc.
....
I'm not so sure. If microtransactions are limited to just extra content, then yes, the analogy sort of works.... up to a point. But when microtransactions provide players with shortcuts and quick rewards, I'd have to disagree... For players who see competition as an important part of MMOs, this may ruin the whole experience.
But I won't dwell on the competition aspect of it for now... Because for me, an even more important part of the deal is immersion.
Let's go back to that analogy: There's no other sure way of seeing those extra movies, you have to pay for them (given you don't take the illegal route). But here you can also *work* for extra stuff. So now, by putting a real money price on it, the game has effectively come up with a *real life exchange rate* for what you're doing in the gameworld.
The problem is, most MMORPGs depend on a reward-for-effort system. So it's the games themselves that try and stimulate at least some instances of goal-oriented play here and there. In other words, they try to make you feel that the rewards are actually important, and worth it. It's one of the cornerstones of the illusion that makes up the gameworld. Seeing and knowing those mighty items are attainable with real money and no ingame effort practically shatters the illusion.
World Recession (depression in some countries) = Launch a mmo with a Box Fee , Monthly Subscription , And micro transatctions for costume parts etc YEAH THAT MAKES SENSE GUYS LETZ GO CATCH SOME FAIRIES LA LA LA LA
In some ways it does make sense if they are also suffering from the recession (which they are as are many of us) and they want to capitalize on those who can afford to pay the extras.
So they launch the game with the standard box fee and sub fee. For those of us who have no issues or very few issues with money they can avail themselves of the rmt store. If anything it makes more sense as they now have maximized their revenue streams for those who can afford it but for those who only can afford the box and sub, they don't need to take advantage of the rmt store.
sounds like you have money to burn.
So? You say that as if its a Bad Thing(tm) Class warfare will only take one so far. Then it becomes obvious to many involved what is being done.
I know a lot of you are justifying this saying they need money. JUST STOP JUSTIFYING THIS BS NOW. It's not OK. No item shops are ok.
Because just like collectible card games, it's no longer a game but a who has the most money contest. I can't believe anyone would justify playing a game like this, or collectible card games, seriously how stupid can you be? I will never purchase or play for free a game with microtransactions. Because once you introduce microtransactions it's no longer a game, it's something else.
Nonsense. Look at your above if we change just one word; "Its no longer a game but about who has the most TIME contest." Some people don't have endless amounts of time to spend on their games. Games with cash shops can be just as entertaining as those without. In fact, if they are done right, they enhance the game. MT's *ARE* coming to more and more games in the future. One has only to look at the reality of the demographics and the profits to be made to know that. Those who get hysterical about them, are going to end up with fewer and fewer games to play.
and the companies that use them will be losing out on those accounts.
World Recession (depression in some countries) = Launch a mmo with a Box Fee , Monthly Subscription , And micro transatctions for costume parts etc YEAH THAT MAKES SENSE GUYS LETZ GO CATCH SOME FAIRIES LA LA LA LA
In some ways it does make sense if they are also suffering from the recession (which they are as are many of us) and they want to capitalize on those who can afford to pay the extras.
So they launch the game with the standard box fee and sub fee. For those of us who have no issues or very few issues with money they can avail themselves of the rmt store. If anything it makes more sense as they now have maximized their revenue streams for those who can afford it but for those who only can afford the box and sub, they don't need to take advantage of the rmt store.
sounds like you have money to burn.
It depends upon what you mean by "money to burn". I have very little debt, no family to support and low rent for the area I live in. After I pay my few bills and put some money into savings I can afford to do some very enjoyable things. I can't afford to do ALL the enjoyable things I want but if I want to go out and pay 200.00+ dollars for dinner then that is not a big deal. I can't however do this every night.
If I played a game that offered micro-transactions for cosmetic items (as I have never made it a secret that this was an issue for me... buying items and characters would be) and I wanted a particular items for some small amount of money then I would do it. It would not affect me at all.
But that's the point. In champions online, it doesn't quite matter as most of these items are cosmetic and any item one can buy someone can earn in game. The only thing that gives me pause are items that have stats because those items can easily be snatched up and the rest of the playerbase will have to earn them before they can be competitive. Then again, if it is just pve stuff then no biggie. pvp on the other hand... that seems a bit of an issue for me as then someoen can become overly good in pvp competition by just paying 5 dollars.
But that is yet to be seen.
incidentally, I earn all my money and invest some of it. Mother and Father never left me a trust fund. I know full well the value of the dollar I earn and I use it accordingly.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I know a lot of you are justifying this saying they need money. JUST STOP JUSTIFYING THIS BS NOW. It's not OK. No item shops are ok.
Because just like collectible card games, it's no longer a game but a who has the most money contest. I can't believe anyone would justify playing a game like this, or collectible card games, seriously how stupid can you be? I will never purchase or play for free a game with microtransactions. Because once you introduce microtransactions it's no longer a game, it's something else.
Nonsense. Look at your above if we change just one word; "Its no longer a game but about who has the most TIME contest." Some people don't have endless amounts of time to spend on their games. Games with cash shops can be just as entertaining as those without. In fact, if they are done right, they enhance the game. MT's *ARE* coming to more and more games in the future. One has only to look at the reality of the demographics and the profits to be made to know that. Those who get hysterical about them, are going to end up with fewer and fewer games to play.
and the companies that use them will be losing out on those accounts.
But are those accounts enough to sway companies to cease using rmt? Or is it so prevalent that there are people who are doing this anyways so the companies are just allowing their players to spend money with them as opposed to some secondary party.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I know a lot of you are justifying this saying they need money. JUST STOP JUSTIFYING THIS BS NOW. It's not OK. No item shops are ok.
Because just like collectible card games, it's no longer a game but a who has the most money contest. I can't believe anyone would justify playing a game like this, or collectible card games, seriously how stupid can you be? I will never purchase or play for free a game with microtransactions. Because once you introduce microtransactions it's no longer a game, it's something else.
Nonsense. Look at your above if we change just one word; "Its no longer a game but about who has the most TIME contest." Some people don't have endless amounts of time to spend on their games. Games with cash shops can be just as entertaining as those without. In fact, if they are done right, they enhance the game. MT's *ARE* coming to more and more games in the future. One has only to look at the reality of the demographics and the profits to be made to know that. Those who get hysterical about them, are going to end up with fewer and fewer games to play.
and the companies that use them will be losing out on those accounts.
Which will be MORE than made up for by the profits to be had in the other business model...<shrug> Limit yourself if you wish. I'll judge a game by if I'm enjoying it or not.
i didnt read the thread but i wanted to chime in quickly....all games have some sort of microtransactions, weather they are legal or not..everyone likes tou use wow so ya lets go there yet again. I have spent 50bucks in server transfers alone just to play with friends the past 3 years. They also charge now for race , gender , and faction changes. What about gold buyers, you know those people spaming chat...someones gotta be buying...they then in turn use that gold to get somethings that others work hard for ...like epic flyer. need more...what about the people buying full dect out level 80's ...talk about the epitome of microtransactions. Am i happy about it? No! will i still give it a shot because i think it deserves it? yes! At worst it joins the dust pile that is AoC and WAR...at best I have a game to play until Final fantasy is released and i wont have to play AION.
playing: Dragon Age Waiting: for FF14, Mass Effect Want to try: Fallen Earth
Well i must say I'm kinda dissapointed they decided to intergrate a micro-transaction system into the game, i personally really don't like the idea of people being able to purchase upgrades and items instead of working for them. However if it's like WoW where you can change race/costume adn change server then i'm fine with it being that way. I had really high hopes for the game but as it gets closer to release i'm loosing faith slightly. That said, i haven't played the game so until i have i'll see how much it will bother me.
They're suppose to be selling entertainment, not a buisness model. Take away the social draw of MMO's and what exactly do you have left? Half-assed games that can't even begin to compete with single player games. So, their justification for making more money than single player games is what.......chat channels? These companies already make large profits with a subscription model. More than enough to pay overhead and produce more content. What exactly are they doing to increase the entertainment value to justify charging more money? Um, it's called basic logic. If games with 300k or less subs weren't making a profit, they would shut down, period. EQ, DAoC, WAR, SWG, EQ2 are all making money, yet have less than 300k subscribers and had large costs. Not only are these games still making profits, but they can afford to come out with monthly updates and content patches. These MMO companies aren't doing us any favors, we are the ones doing them favors and they need to remember that. Screw the consumer enough and you end up bankrupt. Captialism is a two way street.
I merged the 2 quotes for the sake of being concise.
DAOC has been running on a skeleton crew for years. Their servers are out of date by todays standards, and even if they weren't, they consolidated their servers and do not require anywhere near the technical resources on the backend that more modern ones do.
WAR had to cut staff, and unfortunately they started with their CSRs and GMs. They cut staff they cut non-essential backend personnel. They cut whatever they needed to bring them back into the black.
EQ is probably the same case as DAOC, but I don't honestly know about EQ, EQ2 or SWG.
Have you ever run a bootleg server? I've helped run servers for WoW and other games, and the tech expenses and bandwidth(and we had it co-located at a data warehouse, and got a really really good deal on it) were insane, not to mention the time it took, and we only had a couple of hundred users. I think you are mistaking revenue for profit. While these companies have huge revenue, they might only have marginal profit. In fact, you can see this yourself by the fact that Mythic had to cut CSRs and support staff in order to stay in the black. Its a big problem. The more money they are bringing in, the more resources they can field. And while everyone hopes that their game will be the next WoW and have millions of subs, it is unrealistic to plan for that. If they assume they will get 250k subs stable over the long term, the question is how much of a deficit does that put them at given the level of service and development they want to maintain. Not to mention the fact that they start at a deficit cause they have put out millions up-front, which has to be recouped.
So, things you are overlooking in point form:
-Tech Expenses and Bandwidth costs(for a company like blizzard I could see that running into the millions easily.
-Salary for developers and enough CSRs that people feel they are being looked after.
-Starting deficit from development costs.
-Estimated stable subs(they will not assume they are going to stay at even 500k or 1mil. For a projection they will sit at a conservative number).
-Surplus(what you call excessive profit) is used to fund development of new games.
There are probably more points, but I am at work and can't dedicate enough time and mental effort to fill it out more.
These are not privately owned companies. Its not like they have 1 owner who just pockets the profits at the end.
OMG, I haven't over looked anything bub. You can't make a profit until you've paid your overhead, you know, all the crap you listed and then some. You pare down developing crews to maximize profits, the WAR example was proven to be EA's choice to pare down all developers, no matter the game, Mythic had no choice in the matter and they stated that empahtically in a State of the Game letter.
Seriously, I cannot for the life of me understand why you defend companies that charge more than their products deserve. You don't use business models that lose you money and you certainly don't use it for the last decade. These companies are making lots of money or they wouldn't be here in the first place.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I know a lot of you are justifying this saying they need money. JUST STOP JUSTIFYING THIS BS NOW. It's not OK. No item shops are ok.
Because just like collectible card games, it's no longer a game but a who has the most money contest. I can't believe anyone would justify playing a game like this, or collectible card games, seriously how stupid can you be? I will never purchase or play for free a game with microtransactions. Because once you introduce microtransactions it's no longer a game, it's something else.
Nonsense. Look at your above if we change just one word; "Its no longer a game but about who has the most TIME contest." Some people don't have endless amounts of time to spend on their games. Games with cash shops can be just as entertaining as those without. In fact, if they are done right, they enhance the game. MT's *ARE* coming to more and more games in the future. One has only to look at the reality of the demographics and the profits to be made to know that. Those who get hysterical about them, are going to end up with fewer and fewer games to play.
and the companies that use them will be losing out on those accounts.
But are those accounts enough to sway companies to cease using rmt? Or is it so prevalent that there are people who are doing this anyways so the companies are just allowing their players to spend money with them as opposed to some secondary party.
I prefer MMO's, however I do enjoy single player games and will do so if RMT becomes the norm in MMO's.
They're suppose to be selling entertainment, not a buisness model. Take away the social draw of MMO's and what exactly do you have left? Half-assed games that can't even begin to compete with single player games. So, their justification for making more money than single player games is what.......chat channels? These companies already make large profits with a subscription model. More than enough to pay overhead and produce more content. What exactly are they doing to increase the entertainment value to justify charging more money? Um, it's called basic logic. If games with 300k or less subs weren't making a profit, they would shut down, period. EQ, DAoC, WAR, SWG, EQ2 are all making money, yet have less than 300k subscribers and had large costs. Not only are these games still making profits, but they can afford to come out with monthly updates and content patches. These MMO companies aren't doing us any favors, we are the ones doing them favors and they need to remember that. Screw the consumer enough and you end up bankrupt. Captialism is a two way street.
I merged the 2 quotes for the sake of being concise.
DAOC has been running on a skeleton crew for years. Their servers are out of date by todays standards, and even if they weren't, they consolidated their servers and do not require anywhere near the technical resources on the backend that more modern ones do.
WAR had to cut staff, and unfortunately they started with their CSRs and GMs. They cut staff they cut non-essential backend personnel. They cut whatever they needed to bring them back into the black.
EQ is probably the same case as DAOC, but I don't honestly know about EQ, EQ2 or SWG.
Have you ever run a bootleg server? I've helped run servers for WoW and other games, and the tech expenses and bandwidth(and we had it co-located at a data warehouse, and got a really really good deal on it) were insane, not to mention the time it took, and we only had a couple of hundred users. I think you are mistaking revenue for profit. While these companies have huge revenue, they might only have marginal profit. In fact, you can see this yourself by the fact that Mythic had to cut CSRs and support staff in order to stay in the black. Its a big problem. The more money they are bringing in, the more resources they can field. And while everyone hopes that their game will be the next WoW and have millions of subs, it is unrealistic to plan for that. If they assume they will get 250k subs stable over the long term, the question is how much of a deficit does that put them at given the level of service and development they want to maintain. Not to mention the fact that they start at a deficit cause they have put out millions up-front, which has to be recouped.
So, things you are overlooking in point form:
-Tech Expenses and Bandwidth costs(for a company like blizzard I could see that running into the millions easily.
-Salary for developers and enough CSRs that people feel they are being looked after.
-Starting deficit from development costs.
-Estimated stable subs(they will not assume they are going to stay at even 500k or 1mil. For a projection they will sit at a conservative number).
-Surplus(what you call excessive profit) is used to fund development of new games.
There are probably more points, but I am at work and can't dedicate enough time and mental effort to fill it out more.
These are not privately owned companies. Its not like they have 1 owner who just pockets the profits at the end.
This is an excellent post and exactly goes to my point. especially this:
"I think you are mistaking revenue for profit."
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
If you can buy things in the store that effect gameplay then this game is a no play for me. What is the point of striving to earn some item, if someone else can just buy it in the item store? Just completely makes the game pointless in my opinion.
Anyone that thinks this enhances the game has a loose screw.
I know a lot of you are justifying this saying they need money. JUST STOP JUSTIFYING THIS BS NOW. It's not OK. No item shops are ok.
Because just like collectible card games, it's no longer a game but a who has the most money contest. I can't believe anyone would justify playing a game like this, or collectible card games, seriously how stupid can you be? I will never purchase or play for free a game with microtransactions. Because once you introduce microtransactions it's no longer a game, it's something else.
Nonsense. Look at your above if we change just one word; "Its no longer a game but about who has the most TIME contest." Some people don't have endless amounts of time to spend on their games. Games with cash shops can be just as entertaining as those without. In fact, if they are done right, they enhance the game. MT's *ARE* coming to more and more games in the future. One has only to look at the reality of the demographics and the profits to be made to know that. Those who get hysterical about them, are going to end up with fewer and fewer games to play.
I agree, most games indeed have.... I'm one of those people who don't have endless amounts of time to spend on my games, so I lag behind noticably.And you know what? I'm OK with that.
The thing is, you have to take games on their own terms.The whole point of a game is you abide by their rules, that's how most games create their own reality. This is why, for instance, cheating in a game spoils the whole experience (for me, anyway). Because it's breaking the game's own logic, or mechanics.
Of course, one can build a game where paying real money is part of the gaming mechanics. So paying would naturally feel like playing (think Poker, heh). The thing is, I don't feel the current RPG model that depends on rewarding effort or even skill is suitable for that.
They're suppose to be selling entertainment, not a buisness model. Take away the social draw of MMO's and what exactly do you have left? Half-assed games that can't even begin to compete with single player games. So, their justification for making more money than single player games is what.......chat channels? These companies already make large profits with a subscription model. More than enough to pay overhead and produce more content. What exactly are they doing to increase the entertainment value to justify charging more money? Um, it's called basic logic. If games with 300k or less subs weren't making a profit, they would shut down, period. EQ, DAoC, WAR, SWG, EQ2 are all making money, yet have less than 300k subscribers and had large costs. Not only are these games still making profits, but they can afford to come out with monthly updates and content patches. These MMO companies aren't doing us any favors, we are the ones doing them favors and they need to remember that. Screw the consumer enough and you end up bankrupt. Captialism is a two way street.
I merged the 2 quotes for the sake of being concise.
DAOC has been running on a skeleton crew for years. Their servers are out of date by todays standards, and even if they weren't, they consolidated their servers and do not require anywhere near the technical resources on the backend that more modern ones do.
WAR had to cut staff, and unfortunately they started with their CSRs and GMs. They cut staff they cut non-essential backend personnel. They cut whatever they needed to bring them back into the black.
EQ is probably the same case as DAOC, but I don't honestly know about EQ, EQ2 or SWG.
Have you ever run a bootleg server? I've helped run servers for WoW and other games, and the tech expenses and bandwidth(and we had it co-located at a data warehouse, and got a really really good deal on it) were insane, not to mention the time it took, and we only had a couple of hundred users. I think you are mistaking revenue for profit. While these companies have huge revenue, they might only have marginal profit. In fact, you can see this yourself by the fact that Mythic had to cut CSRs and support staff in order to stay in the black. Its a big problem. The more money they are bringing in, the more resources they can field. And while everyone hopes that their game will be the next WoW and have millions of subs, it is unrealistic to plan for that. If they assume they will get 250k subs stable over the long term, the question is how much of a deficit does that put them at given the level of service and development they want to maintain. Not to mention the fact that they start at a deficit cause they have put out millions up-front, which has to be recouped.
So, things you are overlooking in point form:
-Tech Expenses and Bandwidth costs(for a company like blizzard I could see that running into the millions easily.
-Salary for developers and enough CSRs that people feel they are being looked after.
-Starting deficit from development costs.
-Estimated stable subs(they will not assume they are going to stay at even 500k or 1mil. For a projection they will sit at a conservative number).
-Surplus(what you call excessive profit) is used to fund development of new games.
There are probably more points, but I am at work and can't dedicate enough time and mental effort to fill it out more.
These are not privately owned companies. Its not like they have 1 owner who just pockets the profits at the end.
This is an excellent post and exactly goes to my point. especially this:
"I think you are mistaking revenue for profit."
Are you kidding me? What business in it's right mind, would stick around or invest in MMOs for the last 10 years if it wasn't making a profit. I sure as hell wouldn't if it was just breaking even, let alone revenue that isn't keeping me in the black.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Any micro-transaction that has a game effect can also be earned in the game through play.
This means that you will not be forced to buy items from the rmt model. So before some go off ranting you should read first. I doubt anyone will need to buy ingame items from the rmt model but i'll be more interested in the cosmetic stuff and character slots.
This is an excellent post and exactly goes to my point. especially this:
"I think you are mistaking revenue for profit."
Are you kidding me? What business in it's right mind, would stick around or invest in MMOs for the last 10 years if it wasn't making a profit. I sure as hell wouldn't if it was just breaking even, let alone revenue that isn't keeping me in the black.
The mistake you are making, though your initial assessment is correct, is that all these companies have all the same expenditures and no debt, etc.
Game development is becoming more and more expensive. Given that the chance of failure for these online games is great, it makes a great deal of sense to maximize the profit one gets.
If you can show me that these companies, after their quarterly expenses, dealing with investors, etc are stuffing their company couches with 1,000.00 dollar bills then fine. But I suspect that that is not the case. But who knows, maybe their lowest employees are riding around in gold rocket cars and marrying stripper wives (reference anyone?)
So sure, they are probably making a profit but is that profit enough for them to continue well into the future? I know my company has had several discussions during our quarterly meetings with regards to our future pipeline and is it enough to ride out the current recession, not to mention the fall of our stock price.
Because what you are saying is that if a company has been in bussines for years then there is no reason for it to worry about future profit. And we both know that that is not the case if we look at the news and see all the companies that are having financial difficulty after being in business for years.
I mean, look at General Motors. I can't say "hey look do you think they would be in business all those years if they weren't making a profit". Well, looks like they have a lot of issues and profit was part of it. Large union contracts could be part of it as well, as well as a bad product for a number of years.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Any micro-transaction that has a game effect can also be earned in the game through play. This means that you will not be forced to buy items from the rmt model. So before some go off ranting you should read first. I doubt anyone will need to buy ingame items from the rmt model but i'll be more interested in the cosmetic stuff and character slots.
We have no idea how "forced" people will feel to get these items. It isn't wise to make absolute statements like that until we see how it actually turns out. If the in game drop rate is 1 in 23096520469703249672403 then sure, you "can" get it in game, but will you?
The problem is that it is in cryptics financial interest to push people into the cash shop by whatever means they think will earn them more money. Not by using judgement of what makes the game better or what will bring more enjoyment to the players, but instead by what they think will chase off the least amount of players and earn the biggest returns.
Lets also be a little honest about it. Cosmetic items will only sell for so long and so many times to people, before they get their fill of them and just lose the desire to purchase more. If there is a cash shop then the company is depending on it to generate revenue and if cosmetics stop selling something else will take their place.
There is always the chance that this somehow works out and even people who don't like RMT in game find it acceptable, but so far nothing is giving that impression.
Any micro-transaction that has a game effect can also be earned in the game through play. This means that you will not be forced to buy items from the rmt model. So before some go off ranting you should read first. I doubt anyone will need to buy ingame items from the rmt model but i'll be more interested in the cosmetic stuff and character slots.
Lets also be a little honest about it. Cosmetic items will only sell for so long and so many times to people, before they get their fill of them and just lose the desire to purchase more. If there is a cash shop then the company is depending on it to generate revenue and if cosmetics stop selling something else will take their place.
That's a very good point and something to watch.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Many people are blowing this way out of proportion. Working towards a goal such as an item piece, costume, etc. is not going to be "de-valued" because someone can buy it from a store. If that's true then every item piece, costume, etc. in every MMO is de-valued because RMT's have been selling these things as long as I can remember. Just in this case, instead of having RMT's coming in and ruining the game with their mailbox and /tells every 15 minutes, CO has come up with a clever idea of getting rid of them by selling the items themselves.
Why would an RMT spam /tells to buy "gold" or "purchase items" when they can already be purchased from the online store set up by CO? Nothing is being ruined in the game. Just because it can be puchased by someone who doesn't or can't spend as much time in the game trying to obtain some of the desirables of the game doesn't mean that it doesn't take away from the specialness (is that a word?) of anyone working hard to obtain the same desirables.
I feel proud when I am successful in MMOs and get my reward for my hardwork. I really couldn't care less how Tom, Dick, or Harry got their rewards. Reading these forums, I sometimes get the feeling that people like to "freak out" at everything. The game is still going to work. It's going to be a great game. Before you go nuts and lose all control just try the game out. At best, wait until they offer a free trial or attempt to get into beta. There's no reason to bash the game or get your panties in a wad before the game is even out.
Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain. --Lily Tomlin
I don't like this microtransaction system at all, no matter in what way it is made. It makes control of cost a tricky thing. It's a little bit like the risk when people have 20 credit cards, they loose sight over their spendings at some point. But what I totally don't get is why do they have both, monthly fee and microtransactions? Isn't that like... I dunno, paying twice for the same? I pay a 40 Euro game box AND a monthly free AND microtransactions money? I mean... whoa? Thats paying even three times! With GW I only paid for a game box, end of story. Ok, some companies are greedier, they want a monthly fee. But microtransactions too? Come on, thats just one additional money milking too much for my taste. I am going to skip this. Sure I am not forced to, but we all know how much MMOs are about envy and competition, like it or not, you can't really play those games and then play low profile all the time.
Many people are blowing this way out of proportion. Working towards a goal such as an item piece, costume, etc. is not going to be "de-valued" because someone can buy it from a store. If that's true then every item piece, costume, etc. in every MMO is de-valued because RMT's have been selling these things as long as I can remember. Just in this case, instead of having RMT's coming in and ruining the game with their mailbox and /tells every 15 minutes, CO has come up with a clever idea of getting rid of them by selling the items themselves. Why would an RMT spam /tells to buy "gold" or "purchase items" when they can already be purchased from the online store set up by CO? Nothing is being ruined in the game. Just because it can be puchased by someone who doesn't or can't spend as much time in the game trying to obtain some of the desirables of the game doesn't mean that it doesn't take away from the specialness (is that a word?) of anyone working hard to obtain the same desirables. I feel proud when I am successful in MMOs and get my reward for my hardwork. I really couldn't care less how Tom, Dick, or Harry got their rewards. Reading these forums, I sometimes get the feeling that people like to "freak out" at everything. The game is still going to work. It's going to be a great game. Before you go nuts and lose all control just try the game out. At best, wait until they offer a free trial or attempt to get into beta. There's no reason to bash the game or get your panties in a wad before the game is even out.
Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain. --Lily Tomlin
There is a difference between people cheating and using 3rd party sites and company designed rmt.
Most 3rd party sellers only sell currency which has limits to what it can acquire. Many people will not engage with 3rd parties for fear of a ban or just plain getting scammed.
An mmo developer can introduce anything they want at any time. That super suit you spent 3 months working on could end up in the cash shop for 50 cents tomorrow. How would that make you feel?
The developer can slowly nerf xp gain to nudge people to buy xp potions (or whatever). They can offer items better than in game rewards or simply easier to get to same items with a few bucks.
That is not how a game should be designed and just having the temptation available to the developers is to much risk for the players. There is no cap on what they can or will do and the possibilities are limitless. It cannot be said that they are only fluff items, because they already admit some items will not be.
What happens if they sell an item that is to powerful and it needs to be nerfed?
Just from a design standpoint it is a bad idea to do this for the interest of the customers. There is no real gain to players when developers with hold items and demand a random be paid so that they can be played with. I can't think of one benefit to the players at all. None. I can think of many bad things that can happen which will have negative impacts on a game.
Comments
I merged the 2 quotes for the sake of being concise.
DAOC has been running on a skeleton crew for years. Their servers are out of date by todays standards, and even if they weren't, they consolidated their servers and do not require anywhere near the technical resources on the backend that more modern ones do.
WAR had to cut staff, and unfortunately they started with their CSRs and GMs. They cut staff they cut non-essential backend personnel. They cut whatever they needed to bring them back into the black.
EQ is probably the same case as DAOC, but I don't honestly know about EQ, EQ2 or SWG.
Have you ever run a bootleg server? I've helped run servers for WoW and other games, and the tech expenses and bandwidth(and we had it co-located at a data warehouse, and got a really really good deal on it) were insane, not to mention the time it took, and we only had a couple of hundred users. I think you are mistaking revenue for profit. While these companies have huge revenue, they might only have marginal profit. In fact, you can see this yourself by the fact that Mythic had to cut CSRs and support staff in order to stay in the black. Its a big problem. The more money they are bringing in, the more resources they can field. And while everyone hopes that their game will be the next WoW and have millions of subs, it is unrealistic to plan for that. If they assume they will get 250k subs stable over the long term, the question is how much of a deficit does that put them at given the level of service and development they want to maintain. Not to mention the fact that they start at a deficit cause they have put out millions up-front, which has to be recouped.
So, things you are overlooking in point form:
-Tech Expenses and Bandwidth costs(for a company like blizzard I could see that running into the millions easily.
-Salary for developers and enough CSRs that people feel they are being looked after.
-Starting deficit from development costs.
-Estimated stable subs(they will not assume they are going to stay at even 500k or 1mil. For a projection they will sit at a conservative number).
-Surplus(what you call excessive profit) is used to fund development of new games.
There are probably more points, but I am at work and can't dedicate enough time and mental effort to fill it out more.
These are not privately owned companies. Its not like they have 1 owner who just pockets the profits at the end.
Nonsense. Look at your above if we change just one word; "Its no longer a game but about who has the most TIME contest." Some people don't have endless amounts of time to spend on their games. Games with cash shops can be just as entertaining as those without. In fact, if they are done right, they enhance the game. MT's *ARE* coming to more and more games in the future. One has only to look at the reality of the demographics and the profits to be made to know that. Those who get hysterical about them, are going to end up with fewer and fewer games to play.
But i like meny other's would argue that my monthly subscription covers that cost and all those extra's they should be in the game as i pay a monthly fee , If there was no box price i wouldnt care about it , But being charged for costume parts etc for a game that's selling point is "make a superhero be uniqe" ow but if you want this really cool stuff thats extra, We only make boring generic stuff for the monthly subscribers, If you really want to stand out pay me 4.99 for this set of cool outfits zomg. No thanks, i aint going to touch this game now.
Actually it can very easily become mainstream.
Do you have cable? Do you pay a monthly fee? Do you pay a little extra for special movies or to add an additional premium channel?
As far as games go, there is already a precedence. There is a secondary market for games with monthly fees. So someone is paying a monthly fee and still paying to use the secondary market.
This is why it's so hard for game companies to ignore. Players keep saying they don't want any rmt but the evidence points to the opposite.
Totally agree and think its was a terrific analogy. I pay 100 bucks plus per month for cable TV, but they are more than willing to charge me extra for pay per view, special events, extra DVR's etc.
....
I'm not so sure. If microtransactions are limited to just extra content, then yes, the analogy sort of works.... up to a point. But when microtransactions provide players with shortcuts and quick rewards, I'd have to disagree... For players who see competition as an important part of MMOs, this may ruin the whole experience.
But I won't dwell on the competition aspect of it for now... Because for me, an even more important part of the deal is immersion.
Let's go back to that analogy: There's no other sure way of seeing those extra movies, you have to pay for them (given you don't take the illegal route). But here you can also *work* for extra stuff. So now, by putting a real money price on it, the game has effectively come up with a *real life exchange rate* for what you're doing in the gameworld.
The problem is, most MMORPGs depend on a reward-for-effort system. So it's the games themselves that try and stimulate at least some instances of goal-oriented play here and there. In other words, they try to make you feel that the rewards are actually important, and worth it. It's one of the cornerstones of the illusion that makes up the gameworld. Seeing and knowing those mighty items are attainable with real money and no ingame effort practically shatters the illusion.
In some ways it does make sense if they are also suffering from the recession (which they are as are many of us) and they want to capitalize on those who can afford to pay the extras.
So they launch the game with the standard box fee and sub fee. For those of us who have no issues or very few issues with money they can avail themselves of the rmt store. If anything it makes more sense as they now have maximized their revenue streams for those who can afford it but for those who only can afford the box and sub, they don't need to take advantage of the rmt store.
sounds like you have money to burn.
So? You say that as if its a Bad Thing(tm)
Class warfare will only take one so far. Then it becomes obvious to many involved what is being done.
Nonsense. Look at your above if we change just one word; "Its no longer a game but about who has the most TIME contest." Some people don't have endless amounts of time to spend on their games. Games with cash shops can be just as entertaining as those without. In fact, if they are done right, they enhance the game. MT's *ARE* coming to more and more games in the future. One has only to look at the reality of the demographics and the profits to be made to know that. Those who get hysterical about them, are going to end up with fewer and fewer games to play.
and the companies that use them will be losing out on those accounts.
In some ways it does make sense if they are also suffering from the recession (which they are as are many of us) and they want to capitalize on those who can afford to pay the extras.
So they launch the game with the standard box fee and sub fee. For those of us who have no issues or very few issues with money they can avail themselves of the rmt store. If anything it makes more sense as they now have maximized their revenue streams for those who can afford it but for those who only can afford the box and sub, they don't need to take advantage of the rmt store.
sounds like you have money to burn.
It depends upon what you mean by "money to burn". I have very little debt, no family to support and low rent for the area I live in. After I pay my few bills and put some money into savings I can afford to do some very enjoyable things. I can't afford to do ALL the enjoyable things I want but if I want to go out and pay 200.00+ dollars for dinner then that is not a big deal. I can't however do this every night.
If I played a game that offered micro-transactions for cosmetic items (as I have never made it a secret that this was an issue for me... buying items and characters would be) and I wanted a particular items for some small amount of money then I would do it. It would not affect me at all.
But that's the point. In champions online, it doesn't quite matter as most of these items are cosmetic and any item one can buy someone can earn in game. The only thing that gives me pause are items that have stats because those items can easily be snatched up and the rest of the playerbase will have to earn them before they can be competitive. Then again, if it is just pve stuff then no biggie. pvp on the other hand... that seems a bit of an issue for me as then someoen can become overly good in pvp competition by just paying 5 dollars.
But that is yet to be seen.
incidentally, I earn all my money and invest some of it. Mother and Father never left me a trust fund. I know full well the value of the dollar I earn and I use it accordingly.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Nonsense. Look at your above if we change just one word; "Its no longer a game but about who has the most TIME contest." Some people don't have endless amounts of time to spend on their games. Games with cash shops can be just as entertaining as those without. In fact, if they are done right, they enhance the game. MT's *ARE* coming to more and more games in the future. One has only to look at the reality of the demographics and the profits to be made to know that. Those who get hysterical about them, are going to end up with fewer and fewer games to play.
and the companies that use them will be losing out on those accounts.
But are those accounts enough to sway companies to cease using rmt? Or is it so prevalent that there are people who are doing this anyways so the companies are just allowing their players to spend money with them as opposed to some secondary party.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Nonsense. Look at your above if we change just one word; "Its no longer a game but about who has the most TIME contest." Some people don't have endless amounts of time to spend on their games. Games with cash shops can be just as entertaining as those without. In fact, if they are done right, they enhance the game. MT's *ARE* coming to more and more games in the future. One has only to look at the reality of the demographics and the profits to be made to know that. Those who get hysterical about them, are going to end up with fewer and fewer games to play.
and the companies that use them will be losing out on those accounts.
Which will be MORE than made up for by the profits to be had in the other business model...<shrug> Limit yourself if you wish. I'll judge a game by if I'm enjoying it or not.
i didnt read the thread but i wanted to chime in quickly....all games have some sort of microtransactions, weather they are legal or not..everyone likes tou use wow so ya lets go there yet again. I have spent 50bucks in server transfers alone just to play with friends the past 3 years. They also charge now for race , gender , and faction changes. What about gold buyers, you know those people spaming chat...someones gotta be buying...they then in turn use that gold to get somethings that others work hard for ...like epic flyer. need more...what about the people buying full dect out level 80's ...talk about the epitome of microtransactions. Am i happy about it? No! will i still give it a shot because i think it deserves it? yes! At worst it joins the dust pile that is AoC and WAR...at best I have a game to play until Final fantasy is released and i wont have to play AION.
playing: Dragon Age
Waiting: for FF14, Mass Effect
Want to try: Fallen Earth
Well i must say I'm kinda dissapointed they decided to intergrate a micro-transaction system into the game, i personally really don't like the idea of people being able to purchase upgrades and items instead of working for them. However if it's like WoW where you can change race/costume adn change server then i'm fine with it being that way. I had really high hopes for the game but as it gets closer to release i'm loosing faith slightly. That said, i haven't played the game so until i have i'll see how much it will bother me.
I merged the 2 quotes for the sake of being concise.
DAOC has been running on a skeleton crew for years. Their servers are out of date by todays standards, and even if they weren't, they consolidated their servers and do not require anywhere near the technical resources on the backend that more modern ones do.
WAR had to cut staff, and unfortunately they started with their CSRs and GMs. They cut staff they cut non-essential backend personnel. They cut whatever they needed to bring them back into the black.
EQ is probably the same case as DAOC, but I don't honestly know about EQ, EQ2 or SWG.
Have you ever run a bootleg server? I've helped run servers for WoW and other games, and the tech expenses and bandwidth(and we had it co-located at a data warehouse, and got a really really good deal on it) were insane, not to mention the time it took, and we only had a couple of hundred users. I think you are mistaking revenue for profit. While these companies have huge revenue, they might only have marginal profit. In fact, you can see this yourself by the fact that Mythic had to cut CSRs and support staff in order to stay in the black. Its a big problem. The more money they are bringing in, the more resources they can field. And while everyone hopes that their game will be the next WoW and have millions of subs, it is unrealistic to plan for that. If they assume they will get 250k subs stable over the long term, the question is how much of a deficit does that put them at given the level of service and development they want to maintain. Not to mention the fact that they start at a deficit cause they have put out millions up-front, which has to be recouped.
So, things you are overlooking in point form:
-Tech Expenses and Bandwidth costs(for a company like blizzard I could see that running into the millions easily.
-Salary for developers and enough CSRs that people feel they are being looked after.
-Starting deficit from development costs.
-Estimated stable subs(they will not assume they are going to stay at even 500k or 1mil. For a projection they will sit at a conservative number).
-Surplus(what you call excessive profit) is used to fund development of new games.
There are probably more points, but I am at work and can't dedicate enough time and mental effort to fill it out more.
These are not privately owned companies. Its not like they have 1 owner who just pockets the profits at the end.
OMG, I haven't over looked anything bub. You can't make a profit until you've paid your overhead, you know, all the crap you listed and then some. You pare down developing crews to maximize profits, the WAR example was proven to be EA's choice to pare down all developers, no matter the game, Mythic had no choice in the matter and they stated that empahtically in a State of the Game letter.
Seriously, I cannot for the life of me understand why you defend companies that charge more than their products deserve. You don't use business models that lose you money and you certainly don't use it for the last decade. These companies are making lots of money or they wouldn't be here in the first place.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Nonsense. Look at your above if we change just one word; "Its no longer a game but about who has the most TIME contest." Some people don't have endless amounts of time to spend on their games. Games with cash shops can be just as entertaining as those without. In fact, if they are done right, they enhance the game. MT's *ARE* coming to more and more games in the future. One has only to look at the reality of the demographics and the profits to be made to know that. Those who get hysterical about them, are going to end up with fewer and fewer games to play.
and the companies that use them will be losing out on those accounts.
But are those accounts enough to sway companies to cease using rmt? Or is it so prevalent that there are people who are doing this anyways so the companies are just allowing their players to spend money with them as opposed to some secondary party.
I prefer MMO's, however I do enjoy single player games and will do so if RMT becomes the norm in MMO's.
I merged the 2 quotes for the sake of being concise.
DAOC has been running on a skeleton crew for years. Their servers are out of date by todays standards, and even if they weren't, they consolidated their servers and do not require anywhere near the technical resources on the backend that more modern ones do.
WAR had to cut staff, and unfortunately they started with their CSRs and GMs. They cut staff they cut non-essential backend personnel. They cut whatever they needed to bring them back into the black.
EQ is probably the same case as DAOC, but I don't honestly know about EQ, EQ2 or SWG.
Have you ever run a bootleg server? I've helped run servers for WoW and other games, and the tech expenses and bandwidth(and we had it co-located at a data warehouse, and got a really really good deal on it) were insane, not to mention the time it took, and we only had a couple of hundred users. I think you are mistaking revenue for profit. While these companies have huge revenue, they might only have marginal profit. In fact, you can see this yourself by the fact that Mythic had to cut CSRs and support staff in order to stay in the black. Its a big problem. The more money they are bringing in, the more resources they can field. And while everyone hopes that their game will be the next WoW and have millions of subs, it is unrealistic to plan for that. If they assume they will get 250k subs stable over the long term, the question is how much of a deficit does that put them at given the level of service and development they want to maintain. Not to mention the fact that they start at a deficit cause they have put out millions up-front, which has to be recouped.
So, things you are overlooking in point form:
-Tech Expenses and Bandwidth costs(for a company like blizzard I could see that running into the millions easily.
-Salary for developers and enough CSRs that people feel they are being looked after.
-Starting deficit from development costs.
-Estimated stable subs(they will not assume they are going to stay at even 500k or 1mil. For a projection they will sit at a conservative number).
-Surplus(what you call excessive profit) is used to fund development of new games.
There are probably more points, but I am at work and can't dedicate enough time and mental effort to fill it out more.
These are not privately owned companies. Its not like they have 1 owner who just pockets the profits at the end.
This is an excellent post and exactly goes to my point. especially this:
"I think you are mistaking revenue for profit."
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
If you can buy things in the store that effect gameplay then this game is a no play for me. What is the point of striving to earn some item, if someone else can just buy it in the item store? Just completely makes the game pointless in my opinion.
Anyone that thinks this enhances the game has a loose screw.
Nonsense. Look at your above if we change just one word; "Its no longer a game but about who has the most TIME contest." Some people don't have endless amounts of time to spend on their games. Games with cash shops can be just as entertaining as those without. In fact, if they are done right, they enhance the game. MT's *ARE* coming to more and more games in the future. One has only to look at the reality of the demographics and the profits to be made to know that. Those who get hysterical about them, are going to end up with fewer and fewer games to play.
I agree, most games indeed have.... I'm one of those people who don't have endless amounts of time to spend on my games, so I lag behind noticably.And you know what? I'm OK with that.
The thing is, you have to take games on their own terms.The whole point of a game is you abide by their rules, that's how most games create their own reality. This is why, for instance, cheating in a game spoils the whole experience (for me, anyway). Because it's breaking the game's own logic, or mechanics.
Of course, one can build a game where paying real money is part of the gaming mechanics. So paying would naturally feel like playing (think Poker, heh). The thing is, I don't feel the current RPG model that depends on rewarding effort or even skill is suitable for that.
I merged the 2 quotes for the sake of being concise.
DAOC has been running on a skeleton crew for years. Their servers are out of date by todays standards, and even if they weren't, they consolidated their servers and do not require anywhere near the technical resources on the backend that more modern ones do.
WAR had to cut staff, and unfortunately they started with their CSRs and GMs. They cut staff they cut non-essential backend personnel. They cut whatever they needed to bring them back into the black.
EQ is probably the same case as DAOC, but I don't honestly know about EQ, EQ2 or SWG.
Have you ever run a bootleg server? I've helped run servers for WoW and other games, and the tech expenses and bandwidth(and we had it co-located at a data warehouse, and got a really really good deal on it) were insane, not to mention the time it took, and we only had a couple of hundred users. I think you are mistaking revenue for profit. While these companies have huge revenue, they might only have marginal profit. In fact, you can see this yourself by the fact that Mythic had to cut CSRs and support staff in order to stay in the black. Its a big problem. The more money they are bringing in, the more resources they can field. And while everyone hopes that their game will be the next WoW and have millions of subs, it is unrealistic to plan for that. If they assume they will get 250k subs stable over the long term, the question is how much of a deficit does that put them at given the level of service and development they want to maintain. Not to mention the fact that they start at a deficit cause they have put out millions up-front, which has to be recouped.
So, things you are overlooking in point form:
-Tech Expenses and Bandwidth costs(for a company like blizzard I could see that running into the millions easily.
-Salary for developers and enough CSRs that people feel they are being looked after.
-Starting deficit from development costs.
-Estimated stable subs(they will not assume they are going to stay at even 500k or 1mil. For a projection they will sit at a conservative number).
-Surplus(what you call excessive profit) is used to fund development of new games.
There are probably more points, but I am at work and can't dedicate enough time and mental effort to fill it out more.
These are not privately owned companies. Its not like they have 1 owner who just pockets the profits at the end.
This is an excellent post and exactly goes to my point. especially this:
"I think you are mistaking revenue for profit."
Are you kidding me? What business in it's right mind, would stick around or invest in MMOs for the last 10 years if it wasn't making a profit. I sure as hell wouldn't if it was just breaking even, let alone revenue that isn't keeping me in the black.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Any micro-transaction that has a game effect can also be earned in the game through play.
This means that you will not be forced to buy items from the rmt model. So before some go off ranting you should read first. I doubt anyone will need to buy ingame items from the rmt model but i'll be more interested in the cosmetic stuff and character slots.
This is an excellent post and exactly goes to my point. especially this:
"I think you are mistaking revenue for profit."
Are you kidding me? What business in it's right mind, would stick around or invest in MMOs for the last 10 years if it wasn't making a profit. I sure as hell wouldn't if it was just breaking even, let alone revenue that isn't keeping me in the black.
The mistake you are making, though your initial assessment is correct, is that all these companies have all the same expenditures and no debt, etc.
Game development is becoming more and more expensive. Given that the chance of failure for these online games is great, it makes a great deal of sense to maximize the profit one gets.
If you can show me that these companies, after their quarterly expenses, dealing with investors, etc are stuffing their company couches with 1,000.00 dollar bills then fine. But I suspect that that is not the case. But who knows, maybe their lowest employees are riding around in gold rocket cars and marrying stripper wives (reference anyone?)
So sure, they are probably making a profit but is that profit enough for them to continue well into the future? I know my company has had several discussions during our quarterly meetings with regards to our future pipeline and is it enough to ride out the current recession, not to mention the fall of our stock price.
Because what you are saying is that if a company has been in bussines for years then there is no reason for it to worry about future profit. And we both know that that is not the case if we look at the news and see all the companies that are having financial difficulty after being in business for years.
I mean, look at General Motors. I can't say "hey look do you think they would be in business all those years if they weren't making a profit". Well, looks like they have a lot of issues and profit was part of it. Large union contracts could be part of it as well, as well as a bad product for a number of years.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Actually, that's precisely the part that bothers me.
We have no idea how "forced" people will feel to get these items. It isn't wise to make absolute statements like that until we see how it actually turns out. If the in game drop rate is 1 in 23096520469703249672403 then sure, you "can" get it in game, but will you?
The problem is that it is in cryptics financial interest to push people into the cash shop by whatever means they think will earn them more money. Not by using judgement of what makes the game better or what will bring more enjoyment to the players, but instead by what they think will chase off the least amount of players and earn the biggest returns.
Lets also be a little honest about it. Cosmetic items will only sell for so long and so many times to people, before they get their fill of them and just lose the desire to purchase more. If there is a cash shop then the company is depending on it to generate revenue and if cosmetics stop selling something else will take their place.
There is always the chance that this somehow works out and even people who don't like RMT in game find it acceptable, but so far nothing is giving that impression.
Lets also be a little honest about it. Cosmetic items will only sell for so long and so many times to people, before they get their fill of them and just lose the desire to purchase more. If there is a cash shop then the company is depending on it to generate revenue and if cosmetics stop selling something else will take their place.
That's a very good point and something to watch.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Many people are blowing this way out of proportion. Working towards a goal such as an item piece, costume, etc. is not going to be "de-valued" because someone can buy it from a store. If that's true then every item piece, costume, etc. in every MMO is de-valued because RMT's have been selling these things as long as I can remember. Just in this case, instead of having RMT's coming in and ruining the game with their mailbox and /tells every 15 minutes, CO has come up with a clever idea of getting rid of them by selling the items themselves.
Why would an RMT spam /tells to buy "gold" or "purchase items" when they can already be purchased from the online store set up by CO? Nothing is being ruined in the game. Just because it can be puchased by someone who doesn't or can't spend as much time in the game trying to obtain some of the desirables of the game doesn't mean that it doesn't take away from the specialness (is that a word?) of anyone working hard to obtain the same desirables.
I feel proud when I am successful in MMOs and get my reward for my hardwork. I really couldn't care less how Tom, Dick, or Harry got their rewards. Reading these forums, I sometimes get the feeling that people like to "freak out" at everything. The game is still going to work. It's going to be a great game. Before you go nuts and lose all control just try the game out. At best, wait until they offer a free trial or attempt to get into beta. There's no reason to bash the game or get your panties in a wad before the game is even out.
Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain. --Lily Tomlin
I don't like this microtransaction system at all, no matter in what way it is made. It makes control of cost a tricky thing. It's a little bit like the risk when people have 20 credit cards, they loose sight over their spendings at some point. But what I totally don't get is why do they have both, monthly fee and microtransactions? Isn't that like... I dunno, paying twice for the same? I pay a 40 Euro game box AND a monthly free AND microtransactions money? I mean... whoa? Thats paying even three times! With GW I only paid for a game box, end of story. Ok, some companies are greedier, they want a monthly fee. But microtransactions too? Come on, thats just one additional money milking too much for my taste. I am going to skip this. Sure I am not forced to, but we all know how much MMOs are about envy and competition, like it or not, you can't really play those games and then play low profile all the time.
That's just one tad too greedy for me to support.
There is a difference between people cheating and using 3rd party sites and company designed rmt.
Most 3rd party sellers only sell currency which has limits to what it can acquire. Many people will not engage with 3rd parties for fear of a ban or just plain getting scammed.
An mmo developer can introduce anything they want at any time. That super suit you spent 3 months working on could end up in the cash shop for 50 cents tomorrow. How would that make you feel?
The developer can slowly nerf xp gain to nudge people to buy xp potions (or whatever). They can offer items better than in game rewards or simply easier to get to same items with a few bucks.
That is not how a game should be designed and just having the temptation available to the developers is to much risk for the players. There is no cap on what they can or will do and the possibilities are limitless. It cannot be said that they are only fluff items, because they already admit some items will not be.
What happens if they sell an item that is to powerful and it needs to be nerfed?
Just from a design standpoint it is a bad idea to do this for the interest of the customers. There is no real gain to players when developers with hold items and demand a random be paid so that they can be played with. I can't think of one benefit to the players at all. None. I can think of many bad things that can happen which will have negative impacts on a game.