Basically this means that any new costume parts will be pay only. No more free costume parts like they did for years in CoH. Why give things out for free when you can make people PAY PAY PAY.
Also, just because they say "Any micro-transaction that has a game effect can also be earned in the game through play" doesnt mean its actually viable. Meaning, how accessible are these things in-game? Also, how accessible will they be in the future? Everything that can be bought in the Cash Shop in Runes of Magic can also be obtained in-game ....if you feel like grinding for months on end or get lucky with a super rare drop. Seriously, what is the incentive for Cryptic to make the things that are available in the Cash Shop easily accessible in-game? The harder they make them to get in-game the more people will be willing to just buy them.
Cryptic says Champions Online does not revolve around micro transactions and that is probably true but for how long?
I think people just need to accept that the payment model for MMORPGs is changing whether we like it or not.
This has been coming for a long time and when you think about it, it has already happened to most games. Every single major MMO already has 3rd party services selling gold to players and this has become a HUGE industry. Players then take that gold and purchase items that they would otherwise have to spend massive amounts of time to earn...
There really is no difference here. Gaming companies are just starting to understand the profit potential inherent in being the suppliers. If the majority of the gaming community REALLY believed that every item should be worked for, there wouldn't be thousands and thousands of people purchasing gold and power-leveling services on a regular basis from 3rd party sources. The simple fact is, there are... and there is no reason that this money should be going to shady sweatshops in 3rd world counties rather than the companies who create and maintain the games.
To think that any game currently on the market does not ALREADY have RMT is an illusion. It might be through 3rd party sources... but it is there nonetheless.
I for one am happy that they have assured us that the RMT in this game will not be mandatory as it is in some other titles...
I don't like this microtransaction system at all, no matter in what way it is made. It makes control of cost a tricky thing. It's a little bit like the risk when people have 20 credit cards, they loose sight over their spendings at some point. But what I totally don't get is why do they have both, monthly fee and microtransactions? Isn't that like... I dunno, paying twice for the same? I pay a 40 Euro game box AND a monthly free AND microtransactions money? I mean... whoa? Thats paying even three times! With GW I only paid for a game box, end of story. Ok, some companies are greedier, they want a monthly fee. But microtransactions too? Come on, thats just one additional money milking too much for my taste. I am going to skip this. Sure I am not forced to, but we all know how much MMOs are about envy and competition, like it or not, you can't really play those games and then play low profile all the time. That's just one tad too greedy for me to support.
No one says that you HAVE to use the cash shop. Its entirely up to each player. I'm always amused by people who use the subjective word "greedy". What is this "greed"? Someone who has more than you do? Or wants more than you do? Now that is As I said, class warfare will only get one so far... Then people start to wonder about your agenda.
The problem with this model, the reason it's not OK at all, the reason why you should boycott it is:
There is not limit to what they can charge you for (You are paying for a variable item). So you think you are OK with only 95% of the game. What about 50% next week. What about 25% of the game next month.
You are paying for a partial game, and there is no upfront contract as to how much that partial is. It can and will change over time.
And many of us are getting sick are tired of MMOs anyways. And now you want to pay more? When a non-mmo game has an upfront cost that gives you 100% of the game now and forever.
Any micro-transaction that has a game effect can also be earned in the game through play. This means that you will not be forced to buy items from the rmt model. So before some go off ranting you should read first. I doubt anyone will need to buy ingame items from the rmt model but i'll be more interested in the cosmetic stuff and character slots.
We have no idea how "forced" people will feel to get these items. It isn't wise to make absolute statements like that until we see how it actually turns out. If the in game drop rate is 1 in 23096520469703249672403 then sure, you "can" get it in game, but will you?
The problem is that it is in cryptics financial interest to push people into the cash shop by whatever means they think will earn them more money. Not by using judgement of what makes the game better or what will bring more enjoyment to the players, but instead by what they think will chase off the least amount of players and earn the biggest returns.
Lets also be a little honest about it. Cosmetic items will only sell for so long and so many times to people, before they get their fill of them and just lose the desire to purchase more. If there is a cash shop then the company is depending on it to generate revenue and if cosmetics stop selling something else will take their place.
There is always the chance that this somehow works out and even people who don't like RMT in game find it acceptable, but so far nothing is giving that impression.
Well I'm not exactly thrilled about rmt but again if you can earn the items through gameplay for free I do not see why it is an issue with people. if they want to make the arguement that Cryptic is being greedy then so be it but I can tell you that just about everyother developer will think of multiple ways of making money for their product.
The problem with this model, the reason it's not OK at all, the reason why you should boycott it is: There is not limit to what they can charge you for (You are paying for a variable item). So you think you are OK with only 95% of the game. What about 50% next week. What about 25% of the game next month. You are paying for a partial game, and there is no upfront contract as to how much that partial is. It can and will change over time. And many of us are getting sick are tired of MMOs anyways. And now you want to pay more? When a non-mmo game has an upfront cost that gives you 100% of the game now and forever.
Are any of you even playing an MMO right now?
Eve, Cabal on line, Perfect World, Req bloody mere. The last three have cash shops.
Many MMOs right NOW, are infact using RMT. This goes for most all SoE MMOs and as well the king of them WoW which uses RMT for character transfers, gender change, faction change, server change, name change. Also if you pay to attend Blizzcon you then get ingame items, another kind of RMT and to top it off WoW uses their TCG game to give in game WoW rewards.
I hate to say it but RMT is the future. Champions is not alone in this, look at other upcoming big releases. DC Universe, All Points Bulletin, Star Wars the Old Republic, The Agency, Diablo 3, Aion (in other countries, could be NA as well) and I am positive many more of them as well but I can not say for certain.
I am no fan of RMT, however it is reality. If RMT is to be used as Champions Online plans to, being mostly fluff and also offering many RMT items in game as well, then really, it is not so bad. I could care less if Joe Hero spends 20 dollars on some custom stuff, and if it can be attained in game, I may never know Joe Hero bought it via RMT at all.
RMT could very well expand into being able to buy in game currency, xp, all the stuff that is truly a concern. I do not like this sort of RMT at all as these are meant to be games, but so many people have forgotten this and treat a MMO as some sort of E-Sport where they must be the best and companies can easily make big money off them.
This is evident by the fact that Gold Farmer companies make billions of dollars per year. The market is HUGE and that is because players buy the gold, the power leveling, the items and the accounts.
To be honest I found out friends I had in game bought gold and I never knew it until they told me, I just thought they farmed it. I also know people who have bought and sold accounts and on paper it annoys me greatly but when I had a friend buy a priest in WoW...I really did not even think twice, was just cool to have them for instances.
I would also like to say that I would much prefer this sort of business handled by the game company themselves then outside farming companies the clutter the in game world and cause a lot of headaches for real players. Im not saying I like this form of RMT at all but in the end, picking between them the lesser of the evils is the company which is safe and getting profits from us rather then spending them to combat gold farming companies!
RMT is here, it is the future and we need to learn to adapt to it or give up playing MMOs, really all there is to it at this point. The best we can do is be that vocal minority on the forums and do our best to steer RMT into something safe and for fun and fluff and ensure RMT does not become something that is shoved down our throats or has any impact on the actual game we buy.
Oh and to the poster who said they wont buy Champions because you will have vanilla costume choices and be forced to buy the good ones. Don't be so naive! The game will have tons of amazing choices to hook the players. If they launched some boring bare bones game with everything else RMT, it would kill the game. They NEED to hook us in and love the game in order to get us to a point where we want to spend money on RMT.
The only question I have is this, is it having a monthly fee AND microtransations, because if so thats retarded and this game will never be touched. If its f2P and has microtransactions I'll play it purely because its free and I'll never touch the micro transactions, either way their post doesnt say and I dont like that
Many MMOs right NOW, are infact using RMT. This goes for most all SoE MMOs and as well the king of them WoW which uses RMT for character transfers, gender change, faction change, server change, name change. Also if you pay to attend Blizzcon you then get ingame items, another kind of RMT and to top it off WoW uses their TCG game to give in game WoW rewards.
I hate to say it but RMT is the future. Champions is not alone in this, look at other upcoming big releases. DC Universe, All Points Bulletin, Star Wars the Old Republic, The Agency, Diablo 3, Aion (in other countries, could be NA as well) and I am positive many more of them as well but I can not say for certain.
I am no fan of RMT, however it is reality. If RMT is to be used as Champions Online plans to, being mostly fluff and also offering many RMT items in game as well, then really, it is not so bad. I could care less if Joe Hero spends 20 dollars on some custom stuff, and if it can be attained in game, I may never know Joe Hero bought it via RMT at all.
RMT could very well expand into being able to buy in game currency, xp, all the stuff that is truly a concern. I do not like this sort of RMT at all as these are meant to be games, but so many people have forgotten this and treat a MMO as some sort of E-Sport where they must be the best and companies can easily make big money off them. This is evident by the fact that Gold Farmer companies make billions of dollars per year. The market is HUGE and that is because players buy the gold, the power leveling, the items and the accounts.
To be honest I found out friends I had in game bought gold and I never knew it until they told me, I just thought they farmed it. I also know people who have bought and sold accounts and on paper it annoys me greatly but when I had a friend buy a priest in WoW...I really did not even think twice, was just cool to have them for instances.
I would also like to say that I would much prefer this sort of business handled by the game company themselves then outside farming companies the clutter the in game world and cause a lot of headaches for real players. Im not saying I like this form of RMT at all but in the end, picking between them the lesser of the evils is the company which is safe and getting profits from us rather then spending them to combat gold farming companies!
RMT is here, it is the future and we need to learn to adapt to it or give up playing MMOs, really all there is to it at this point. The best we can do is be that vocal minority on the forums and do our best to steer RMT into something safe and for fun and fluff and ensure RMT does not become something that is shoved down our throats or has any impact on the actual game we buy.
Oh and to the poster who said they wont buy Champions because you will have vanilla costume choices and be forced to buy the good ones. Don't be so naive! The game will have tons of amazing choices to hook the players. If they launched some boring bare bones game with everything else RMT, it would kill the game. They NEED to hook us in and love the game in order to get us to a point where we want to spend money on RMT.
After much soul searching I pre-ordered it. I do play CoX and if they keep the RMT at that level - which I do not use, then ok. If it becomes more than that then I will quit the game and flame the company in the forums for their choice.
this process will not deter me from trying this game out. i could care less if jackleg can buy an item and i worked for it. personally i really dont care what people do with their time and money with MMOS and really its none of my business.
I agree 100% and am relieved to see someone that thinks like I do.
First of all, bigger fonts don't make whatever you're posting more important, just harder to read.
Now, in the matter of RMT.
What Blizzard (and other companies are doing) is something different than what Champions Online and some of the newer released titles intend to do. Personally, I want companies to impose some sort of barrier in name changes, server transfers etc. so as not to trivialise the process. I don't want player X to scam, then change his name or server and disappear from the radar to repeat the process. If somebody wants to change his nickname or the server he's in, I want some sort of barrier so he won't server hop every couple of days. Whether that barrier is money or time restriction or both, I don't mind.
However here we're talking about something else.
You have a game that appearance matters because armor etc do not change the appearance. You also have a game where powers are the equivalent of gear in other games. Both of those are sold in item mall. I wouldn't mind if the game was F2P, but since this is not the case, I exercise my right both to complain and avoid the game. Just like I avoided EQ2, HGL and other games.
This model reeks of desperation. Only companies that feel they will not have viable number of subscriptions would stoop to this kind of watering down their gameplay. Aion is P2P only as far as I know. The rest of the games you mentioned share similar mentality, aka they predict low number of subscriptions so they will try to milk those subscribers for as much as possible. This does not bode well for the quality of the game over time. In fact, I would predict that the less subscribers they get, the more items will be offered via item mall.
This new model will only work as long as we tolerate it. As it stands now:
P2P means standard (usually good quality)
F2P means poor quality and additional grinds to justify buying from the RMT
P2P /w item mall means greed in addition to all the weaknesses of the F2P model
If I choose to get a P2Pmmorpg I want that not every single noob buys his gear ( or costume for that matter ) in 5 min where you worked months for it. ( besides the fact its rediculous to ask month pay + micro ). Many have tryed that ... guess what they went F2P or they went bankrupt...
Originally posted by Daffid011 That super suit you spent 3 months working on could end up in the cash shop for 50 cents tomorrow. How would that make you feel? The developer can slowly nerf xp gain to nudge people to buy xp potions (or whatever). They can offer items better than in game rewards or simply easier to get to same items with a few bucks. That is not how a game should be designed and just having the temptation available to the developers is to much risk for the players. There is no cap on what they can or will do and the possibilities are limitless. It cannot be said that they are only fluff items, because they already admit some items will not be. What happens if they sell an item that is to powerful and it needs to be nerfed? Just from a design standpoint it is a bad idea to do this for the interest of the customers. There is no real gain to players when developers with hold items and demand a random be paid so that they can be played with. I can't think of one benefit to the players at all. None. I can think of many bad things that can happen which will have negative impacts on a game.
This is my biggest concern. The most legitimate and disturbing point. Where does it end? Why not crank up every desirable item or achievement possible for the pay to win crowd? The way most of you here feel(read all comments), it doesnt matter. Oooohh well *shrug*. It wont ruin my game....today. It might stay, mostly, irrelevant to the majority of players. The problem will arise when these things are implemented to ratchet up the 'revenue', 'profit', or the loss of those(previous mentions) due to the exodus/shortage of subscription holders to fulfil projections. I believe they will eventually(first mo., first yr., etc.) get to this. The shackles are off from the jump.
These companies are doing so horrible running these games in terms of finances, using the standard model of P2P. Correct? They need to curb the freefall of their poorly designed game by allowing anyone to be a winner!!....for (many) small cash payments, above the 15 bucks everyone pays. Pee on my leg and tell me its raining! Wake up call folks. These games make piles of money. Piles! If you think not, then you're an idiot. The ones that do not make money are trash, have poor appeal, or cost too damn much in the first place(TR, MxO, AA).
First you make a good game. Good game = majority agrees its worth a subscription fee. Then break the standard mold of P2P not by raising or adding costs to that model, but lowering the costs in the model. If a company would step out and offer their game for $10 a month, I believe it would invigorate competition in the marketplace again and likely be a hit. Remember, establish 'good game'(somewhat debatable) first. WoW would completely break the backs of anyone even attempting to move in on the same block with a change like this. They wont though, cause they are gluttons with overwhelming greed. LOL, well maybe only slightly gluttonous with partly disgusting greed!
To Sandblox: First of all, bigger fonts don't make whatever you're posting more important, just harder to read. Now, in the matter of RMT. What Blizzard (and other companies are doing) is something different than what Champions Online and some of the newer released titles intend to do. Personally, I want companies to impose some sort of barrier in name changes, server transfers etc. so as not to trivialise the process. I don't want player X to scam, then change his name or server and disappear from the radar to repeat the process. If somebody wants to change his nickname or the server he's in, I want some sort of barrier so he won't server hop every couple of days. Whether that barrier is money or time restriction or both, I don't mind. However here we're talking about something else. You have a game that appearance matters because armor etc do not change the appearance. You also have a game where powers are the equivalent of gear in other games. Both of those are sold in item mall. I wouldn't mind if the game was F2P, but since this is not the case, I exercise my right both to complain and avoid the game. Just like I avoided EQ2, HGL and other games. This model reeks of desperation. Only companies that feel they will not have viable number of subscriptions would stoop to this kind of watering down their gameplay. Aion is P2P only as far as I know. The rest of the games you mentioned share similar mentality, aka they predict low number of subscriptions so they will try to milk those subscribers for as much as possible. This does not bode well for the quality of the game over time. In fact, I would predict that the less subscribers they get, the more items will be offered via item mall. This new model will only work as long as we tolerate it. As it stands now:
P2P means standard (usually good quality) F2P means poor quality and additional grinds to justify buying from the RMT P2P /w item mall means greed in addition to all the weaknesses of the F2P model
I didn't see any info on powers being sold in game or out of it for that matter. please provide a link for that specific info. Not that I don't believe you but seeing a link verifies that you are not trolling.
The problem with this model, the reason it's not OK at all, the reason why you should boycott it is: There is not limit to what they can charge you for (You are paying for a variable item). So you think you are OK with only 95% of the game. What about 50% next week. What about 25% of the game next month. You are paying for a partial game, and there is no upfront contract as to how much that partial is. It can and will change over time. And many of us are getting sick are tired of MMOs anyways. And now you want to pay more? When a non-mmo game has an upfront cost that gives you 100% of the game now and forever.
Are any of you even playing an MMO right now?
Well said.
People just do not see the precedents anymore. They have tunnel vision on what is initially offered and don't seem concerned where the trend is heading. A few years ago someone would have been laughed off the forums if they said a gaming company would sell items directly to players in a subscription based game or that they would allow cash sales between players in game.
Right now the companies want to sell power items that people must buy, but the major goal is to get people to accept rmt as a game standard. They desperately need people to be indifferent and say things like "its only fluff items" or "it won't affect gameplay" while holding the false belief that rmt will somehow be limited to those types of items. As if there is some rulebook stating what a company can and cannot sell. Really they are counting on that level of apathy to introduce rmt into games, because it is nothing but extra money for them for no extra work. Like Greenchaos said, they are now selling you 95% of a game and offering you the last 5% of additional fees. Soon it will be 90%....
It time, if people roll over to this kind of thing, companies will keep pushing the limits until it is in free fall or customers have enough and walk away. That is where this is heading and neither look like a winning situation to me.
To anyone who thinks this isn't a big deal, please try to look at the potential of what it can and most likely will become. Looking at the items now and thinking they are only fluff is self deception.
In the end paying a subscription fee and having content held hostage in a cash item shop is a net loss for you and I, the customer. There is no way to explain that away.
The problem with this model, the reason it's not OK at all, the reason why you should boycott it is: There is not limit to what they can charge you for (You are paying for a variable item). So you think you are OK with only 95% of the game. What about 50% next week. What about 25% of the game next month. You are paying for a partial game, and there is no upfront contract as to how much that partial is. It can and will change over time. And many of us are getting sick are tired of MMOs anyways. And now you want to pay more? When a non-mmo game has an upfront cost that gives you 100% of the game now and forever.
Are any of you even playing an MMO right now?
Well said.
People just do not see the precedents anymore. They have tunnel vision on what is initially offered and don't seem concerned where the trend is heading. A few years ago someone would have been laughed off the forums if they said a gaming company would sell items directly to players in a subscription based game or that they would allow cash sales between players in game.
Right now the companies want to sell power items that people must buy, but the major goal is to get people to accept rmt as a game standard. They desperately need people to be indifferent and say things like "its only fluff items" or "it won't affect gameplay" while holding the false belief that rmt will somehow be limited to those types of items. As if there is some rulebook stating what a company can and cannot sell. Really they are counting on that level of apathy to introduce rmt into games, because it is nothing but extra money for them for no extra work. Like Greenchaos said, they are now selling you 95% of a game and offering you the last 5% of additional fees. Soon it will be 90%....
It time, if people roll over to this kind of thing, companies will keep pushing the limits until it is in free fall or customers have enough and walk away. That is where this is heading and neither look like a winning situation to me.
To anyone who thinks this isn't a big deal, please try to look at the potential of what it can and most likely will become. Looking at the items now and thinking they are only fluff is self deception.
In the end paying a subscription fee and having content held hostage in a cash item shop is a net loss for you and I, the customer. There is no way to explain that away.
Things are changing.
For the worse or better, that part is based on perception. I don't care what the market is doing, because there will always be a competitor willing to give me something I want. When the day comes that I can't find that, I think we will have much bigger problems than MMOs.
I also expected this since Gold-Seller became a common topic. Gold-sellers and buyers may have been a sore point for developers as it hurt the game, but i'm certain CEOs and Investors were moaning that the money wasn't going to the company.
There is a HUGE portion of the market willing to pay more than the monthly subscription fee, and the companies very much want that money coming to the game rather than a gold/character seller.
I shrug at it... when companies offered paid character transfers and other services for a fee... I knew things would change.
The sun still rises in the east and sets in the west.
Originally posted by Daffid011 That super suit you spent 3 months working on could end up in the cash shop for 50 cents tomorrow. How would that make you feel? The developer can slowly nerf xp gain to nudge people to buy xp potions (or whatever). They can offer items better than in game rewards or simply easier to get to same items with a few bucks. That is not how a game should be designed and just having the temptation available to the developers is to much risk for the players. There is no cap on what they can or will do and the possibilities are limitless. It cannot be said that they are only fluff items, because they already admit some items will not be. What happens if they sell an item that is to powerful and it needs to be nerfed? Just from a design standpoint it is a bad idea to do this for the interest of the customers. There is no real gain to players when developers with hold items and demand a random be paid so that they can be played with. I can't think of one benefit to the players at all. None. I can think of many bad things that can happen which will have negative impacts on a game.
This is my biggest concern. The most legitimate and disturbing point. Where does it end? Why not crank up every desirable item or achievement possible for the pay to win crowd? The way most of you here feel(read all comments), it doesnt matter. Oooohh well *shrug*. It wont ruin my game....today. It might stay, mostly, irrelevant to the majority of players. The problem will arise when these things are implemented to ratchet up the 'revenue', 'profit', or the loss of those(previous mentions) due to the exodus/shortage of subscription holders to fulfil projections. I believe they will eventually(first mo., first yr., etc.) get to this. The shackles are off from the jump.
These companies are doing so horrible running these games in terms of finances, using the standard model of P2P. Correct? They need to curb the freefall of their poorly designed game by allowing anyone to be a winner!!....for (many) small cash payments, above the 15 bucks everyone pays. Pee on my leg and tell me its raining! Wake up call folks. These games make piles of money. Piles! If you think not, then you're an idiot. The ones that do not make money are trash, have poor appeal, or cost too damn much in the first place(TR, MxO, AA).
First you make a good game. Good game = majority agrees its worth a subscription fee. Then break the standard mold of P2P not by raising or adding costs to that model, but lowering the costs in the model. If a company would step out and offer their game for $10 a month, I believe it would invigorate competition in the marketplace again and likely be a hit. Remember, establish 'good game'(somewhat debatable) first. WoW would completely break the backs of anyone even attempting to move in on the same block with a change like this. They wont though, cause they are gluttons with overwhelming greed. LOL, well maybe only slightly gluttonous with partly disgusting greed!
Perhaps you didn't get the memo... But the OBJECT of this exercise is PROFIT. Now how that is achieved is the devil of the details. F2P, P2P, cash shop or what ever combination they want to try is fine with me. Just so long as I ENJOY the game. I, unlike far too many do not begrudge the Dev's compensation for their YEARS of hard work, and the application of their talent, experience and millions and millions of dollars(usually of other peoples money).
The simply horrible thing is that those investors actually expect to make a profit on their investment of those millions and millions. I tell you Comrade, come the Day of the Glorious Peoples Revolution, such types will be the FIRST on the wall! But until that Great Day arrives, we must struggle along with such "greedy" types in our midst as best we can...
Those who can not see that time/money can be interchangeable(when done properly) either have not thought things through, or are victims of their own bias. Some types think NOTHING of spending endless time in a game to achieve their goals. Of course, they go in to hysterics if there is another route(in addition to their time investment) for those who value their time more than their money. The Dev's are *selling* ENTERTAINMENT. Now the medium of exchange can be investing time and/or money. You do realize that time IS money? Look at the 4-6(or more) hours a day that some people spend playing. Now multiply that by even the minimum wage(and some of us make a LOT more than that) and you have the the real cost of your entertainment. But if the game is entertaining, that doesn't matter. Its all about perceptions and expectations in the final analysis.
This is an excellent post and exactly goes to my point. especially this:
"I think you are mistaking revenue for profit."
Are you kidding me? What business in it's right mind, would stick around or invest in MMOs for the last 10 years if it wasn't making a profit. I sure as hell wouldn't if it was just breaking even, let alone revenue that isn't keeping me in the black.
The mistake you are making, though your initial assessment is correct, is that all these companies have all the same expenditures and no debt, etc.
Game development is becoming more and more expensive. Given that the chance of failure for these online games is great, it makes a great deal of sense to maximize the profit one gets.
If you can show me that these companies, after their quarterly expenses, dealing with investors, etc are stuffing their company couches with 1,000.00 dollar bills then fine. But I suspect that that is not the case. But who knows, maybe their lowest employees are riding around in gold rocket cars and marrying stripper wives (reference anyone?)
So sure, they are probably making a profit but is that profit enough for them to continue well into the future? I know my company has had several discussions during our quarterly meetings with regards to our future pipeline and is it enough to ride out the current recession, not to mention the fall of our stock price.
Because what you are saying is that if a company has been in bussines for years then there is no reason for it to worry about future profit. And we both know that that is not the case if we look at the news and see all the companies that are having financial difficulty after being in business for years.
I mean, look at General Motors. I can't say "hey look do you think they would be in business all those years if they weren't making a profit". Well, looks like they have a lot of issues and profit was part of it. Large union contracts could be part of it as well, as well as a bad product for a number of years.
That's why the subscription rate has gotten more expensive over the last 10 years, but at an acceptable rate. Subscriptions plus MT is pure greed, they're hoping to rip off the customers and see if they can get away with it. The cost of games hasn't gone up enough to justify such a large increase of revenue and the quality of these games hasn't improved enough to charge premium rates.
This is capitalism at it's best and worst. They may be pushing to see what the market will bear and it may pay off, but it can also burn and bankrupt them from the backlash. I won't bear it and there could very well be many, many more like me. Either way, I'm done with this genre when the games I want to play don't offer me a plain old reasonable subscription.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
The problem with this model, the reason it's not OK at all, the reason why you should boycott it is: There is not limit to what they can charge you for (You are paying for a variable item). So you think you are OK with only 95% of the game. What about 50% next week. What about 25% of the game next month. You are paying for a partial game, and there is no upfront contract as to how much that partial is. It can and will change over time. And many of us are getting sick are tired of MMOs anyways. And now you want to pay more? When a non-mmo game has an upfront cost that gives you 100% of the game now and forever.
Are any of you even playing an MMO right now?
Well said.
People just do not see the precedents anymore. They have tunnel vision on what is initially offered and don't seem concerned where the trend is heading. A few years ago someone would have been laughed off the forums if they said a gaming company would sell items directly to players in a subscription based game or that they would allow cash sales between players in game.
Right now the companies want to sell power items that people must buy, but the major goal is to get people to accept rmt as a game standard. They desperately need people to be indifferent and say things like "its only fluff items" or "it won't affect gameplay" while holding the false belief that rmt will somehow be limited to those types of items. As if there is some rulebook stating what a company can and cannot sell. Really they are counting on that level of apathy to introduce rmt into games, because it is nothing but extra money for them for no extra work. Like Greenchaos said, they are now selling you 95% of a game and offering you the last 5% of additional fees. Soon it will be 90%....
It time, if people roll over to this kind of thing, companies will keep pushing the limits until it is in free fall or customers have enough and walk away. That is where this is heading and neither look like a winning situation to me.
To anyone who thinks this isn't a big deal, please try to look at the potential of what it can and most likely will become. Looking at the items now and thinking they are only fluff is self deception.
In the end paying a subscription fee and having content held hostage in a cash item shop is a net loss for you and I, the customer. There is no way to explain that away.
Things are changing.
For the worse or better, that part is based on perception. I don't care what the market is doing, because there will always be a competitor willing to give me something I want. When the day comes that I can't find that, I think we will have much bigger problems than MMOs.
I also expected this since Gold-Seller became a common topic. Gold-sellers and buyers may have been a sore point for developers as it hurt the game, but i'm certain CEOs and Investors were moaning that the money wasn't going to the company.
There is a HUGE portion of the market willing to pay more than the monthly subscription fee, and the companies very much want that money coming to the game rather than a gold/character seller.
I shrug at it... when companies offered paid character transfers and other services for a fee... I knew things would change.
The sun still rises in the east and sets in the west.
Empires, cultures, and customs rise and fall.
I'll change to keep up with it.
Speaking from a profit viewpoint:
When you keep RMT illegal you also keep an influx of banned players purchasing new accounts, while you keep those that utterly hate RMT (yes, this people exist, and no matter how much you call them trolls, they've shown their presence in here and in CO forums defending their view of what is the limit in legal RMT transactions and that offering in-game items be it for show or for functions is trespassing that limit, especially when there is already a retail cost and monthly fees to support the game from their part).
They want that money going to illegal RMTs, but they will lose the customers that hate RMT past a certain level.
And yeah, those that accept this new level of RMT are actually speeding the process of whatever the next level may be (or actually stopping the process), you should be concerned unless you don't mind spending more and more to play a game because that's what will happen.
Fact is that it is much profitable for developers to provide a game based on how much money you spend rather than how much time you spend, and this is when games stop being games, at least when we're talking about the original purpose of games.
Bullet no.3 deals with ... nothing, just a comment
Bullet no.4 opens all powers (anything that has a game effect) into microtransaction, as long as it can obtained ingame as well.
First of all, keep in mind that they will definitely keep the RMT items desirable, so they can sell. How much desirable, depends on how much they can get away with before the subscription paying crowd starts yelling "murder". Also it's not unreasonable to think that the less subscriptions they have, the more areas of the game will be covered with RMT to compensate.
Also please think a bit down the line, when the game is established and lets say that there are three tiers of dungeons. The majority of the players are old, so they are working their way on the last tier, while very few people bother with tier 1. Unfortunately, that's where the powers to advance you to tier2 dungeons are, for a new player. So you are facing either hoping that a unpopular tier1 happens at some point, or you just buy the powers and move on to the next tier.
Bottom line, it creates a precedence I'm not willing to be a part of, whether some people think it's the future or not. It is my choice not to be part of this particular type of future.
The problem with this model, the reason it's not OK at all, the reason why you should boycott it is: There is not limit to what they can charge you for (You are paying for a variable item). So you think you are OK with only 95% of the game. What about 50% next week. What about 25% of the game next month. You are paying for a partial game, and there is no upfront contract as to how much that partial is. It can and will change over time. And many of us are getting sick are tired of MMOs anyways. And now you want to pay more? When a non-mmo game has an upfront cost that gives you 100% of the game now and forever.
Are any of you even playing an MMO right now?
Well said.
People just do not see the precedents anymore. They have tunnel vision on what is initially offered and don't seem concerned where the trend is heading. A few years ago someone would have been laughed off the forums if they said a gaming company would sell items directly to players in a subscription based game or that they would allow cash sales between players in game.
Right now the companies want to sell power items that people must buy, but the major goal is to get people to accept rmt as a game standard. They desperately need people to be indifferent and say things like "its only fluff items" or "it won't affect gameplay" while holding the false belief that rmt will somehow be limited to those types of items. As if there is some rulebook stating what a company can and cannot sell. Really they are counting on that level of apathy to introduce rmt into games, because it is nothing but extra money for them for no extra work. Like Greenchaos said, they are now selling you 95% of a game and offering you the last 5% of additional fees. Soon it will be 90%....
It time, if people roll over to this kind of thing, companies will keep pushing the limits until it is in free fall or customers have enough and walk away. That is where this is heading and neither look like a winning situation to me.
To anyone who thinks this isn't a big deal, please try to look at the potential of what it can and most likely will become. Looking at the items now and thinking they are only fluff is self deception.
In the end paying a subscription fee and having content held hostage in a cash item shop is a net loss for you and I, the customer. There is no way to explain that away.
Things are changing.
For the worse or better, that part is based on perception. I don't care what the market is doing, because there will always be a competitor willing to give me something I want. When the day comes that I can't find that, I think we will have much bigger problems than MMOs.
I also expected this since Gold-Seller became a common topic. Gold-sellers and buyers may have been a sore point for developers as it hurt the game, but i'm certain CEOs and Investors were moaning that the money wasn't going to the company.
There is a HUGE portion of the market willing to pay more than the monthly subscription fee, and the companies very much want that money coming to the game rather than a gold/character seller.
I shrug at it... when companies offered paid character transfers and other services for a fee... I knew things would change.
The sun still rises in the east and sets in the west.
Empires, cultures, and customs rise and fall.
I'll change to keep up with it.
Speaking from a profit viewpoint:
When you keep RMT illegal you also keep an influx of banned players purchasing new accounts, while you keep those that utterly hate RMT (yes, this people exist, and no matter how much you call them trolls, they've shown their presence in here and in CO forums defending their view of what is the limit in legal RMT transactions and that offering in-game items be it for show or for functions is trespassing that limit, especially when there is already a retail cost and monthly fees to support the game from their part).
They want that money going to illegal RMTs, but they will lose the customers that hate RMT past a certain level.
And yeah, those that accept this new level of RMT are actually speeding the process of whatever the next level may be (or actually stopping the process), you should be concerned unless you don't mind spending more and more to play a game because that's what will happen.
Fact is that it is much profitable for developers to provide a game based on how much money you spend rather than how much time you spend, and this is when games stop being games, at least when we're talking about the original purpose of games.
Why shouldn't that money go to the Dev's? Its their game after all. Why should some third parties be making huge profits off of their hard work? The fact that third parties exist(with a market well over a billion dollars world wide) states that there IS a demand. Its all in how its handled, and how popular perception is dealt with.
As for the last, I was always under the impression that the "original purpose of games" was ENTERTAINMENT. Why should that cease, simply because there are other options?
seein an above post where someone mentioned y shouldnt the money go to the devs, well i mean thats fine with me, more money devs have to work with, the more they can do with their game. im iffy on RMT things being incorporated into my games i play. but i wont turn it away either. the stuff EQ2 offers i believe in their marketplace isnt game changing. i see alot of cosmetic , fluff, pets, house items, but off brief browsing havent seen game altering buyable items that arent accessible through say veteran rewards. overal. i wont let RMT incorporation into champions deter my checking this one out. its char creation alone is enough to draw me in for at least the first month. so someone can buy something. if its somethin i can earn out of my own hardwork so be it. theres more satisfaction earning a nice item through good hard work and progress ne way
Waiting For: FF14,Guild Wars2 RIP: Tabula Rasa&Hellgate:London(online) Playing:Fallen Earth&Guild Wars& Dragon Age
For the worse or better, that part is based on perception. I don't care what the market is doing, because there will always be a competitor willing to give me something I want. When the day comes that I can't find that, I think we will have much bigger problems than MMOs.
I also expected this since Gold-Seller became a common topic. Gold-sellers and buyers may have been a sore point for developers as it hurt the game, but i'm certain CEOs and Investors were moaning that the money wasn't going to the company.
There is a HUGE portion of the market willing to pay more than the monthly subscription fee, and the companies very much want that money coming to the game rather than a gold/character seller.
I shrug at it... when companies offered paid character transfers and other services for a fee... I knew things would change.
The sun still rises in the east and sets in the west.
Empires, cultures, and customs rise and fall.
I'll change to keep up with it.
Speaking from a profit viewpoint:
When you keep RMT illegal you also keep an influx of banned players purchasing new accounts, while you keep those that utterly hate RMT (yes, this people exist, and no matter how much you call them trolls, they've shown their presence in here and in CO forums defending their view of what is the limit in legal RMT transactions and that offering in-game items be it for show or for functions is trespassing that limit, especially when there is already a retail cost and monthly fees to support the game from their part).
They want that money going to illegal RMTs, but they will lose the customers that hate RMT past a certain level.
And yeah, those that accept this new level of RMT are actually speeding the process of whatever the next level may be (or actually stopping the process), you should be concerned unless you don't mind spending more and more to play a game because that's what will happen.
Fact is that it is much profitable for developers to provide a game based on how much money you spend rather than how much time you spend, and this is when games stop being games, at least when we're talking about the original purpose of games.
You sound as if you are of an older MMO mentality. The new customer base is raised on the concept of small purchases from a digital market place. XBox/Windows Live, Playstation Store, or Wii Shop. Perhaps even Steam for small games?
It isn't just in MMOs, but an entire gaming industry where small games or addons are being sold for less than $5 a piece. A time when players understand and accept microtransactions without blinking an eye. Subscriptions are fading when it comes to digital delivery of entertainment.
Sure many of us MMO players will gripe about it, but what about the new faces in the market in 5 years? What about just 1-2?
On my colored text... I don't ever spend more than I want. When that time comes where I can't afford it or don't want to pay... i stop playing.
You seem to understand that developers don't want money over a length of time... and the only real point I have to make on that is that I blame "World/Server Firsts". A new generation that wants it faster and better than other players, while asking developers to keep up with content the players push through. A rate that is quicker than Dev's working on a subscription income want...
Making new content at a rate which can keep up with the "World/Server Firsts" generation of MMO players has got to be very difficult on a subscription based plan. To speed up content output, you need more subscriptions... which in itself brings in other costs.
But... by putting more of the burden of content creation costs on the player who wants it faster and better... you are able to get the money you need quicker. Charging based on development costs, and not a "standard industry rate", is fair and smart in my mind.
Sure they could raise monthly subscription costs... but no one likes a rate hike and few will believe or accept a true/correct explanation.
RMT's APPEAR cheaper at $5 dollars a dungeon... and putting in a purchase-point system also helps that perception.
*shrug* You claim this is a problem we players should care about... but I believe this problem was made BY the players.
Comments
Basically this means that any new costume parts will be pay only. No more free costume parts like they did for years in CoH. Why give things out for free when you can make people PAY PAY PAY.
Also, just because they say "Any micro-transaction that has a game effect can also be earned in the game through play" doesnt mean its actually viable.
Meaning, how accessible are these things in-game? Also, how accessible will they be in the future?
Everything that can be bought in the Cash Shop in Runes of Magic can also be obtained in-game ....if you feel like grinding for months on end or get lucky with a super rare drop.
Seriously, what is the incentive for Cryptic to make the things that are available in the Cash Shop easily accessible in-game? The harder they make them to get in-game the more people will be willing to just buy them.
Cryptic says Champions Online does not revolve around micro transactions and that is probably true but for how long?
Thank you for that reply. I can see your side of the argument. I have to admit your points are very valid and could cause some concern.
I think people just need to accept that the payment model for MMORPGs is changing whether we like it or not.
This has been coming for a long time and when you think about it, it has already happened to most games. Every single major MMO already has 3rd party services selling gold to players and this has become a HUGE industry. Players then take that gold and purchase items that they would otherwise have to spend massive amounts of time to earn...
There really is no difference here. Gaming companies are just starting to understand the profit potential inherent in being the suppliers. If the majority of the gaming community REALLY believed that every item should be worked for, there wouldn't be thousands and thousands of people purchasing gold and power-leveling services on a regular basis from 3rd party sources. The simple fact is, there are... and there is no reason that this money should be going to shady sweatshops in 3rd world counties rather than the companies who create and maintain the games.
To think that any game currently on the market does not ALREADY have RMT is an illusion. It might be through 3rd party sources... but it is there nonetheless.
I for one am happy that they have assured us that the RMT in this game will not be mandatory as it is in some other titles...
No one says that you HAVE to use the cash shop. Its entirely up to each player. I'm always amused by people who use the subjective word "greedy". What is this "greed"? Someone who has more than you do? Or wants more than you do? Now that is
As I said, class warfare will only get one so far... Then people start to wonder about your agenda.
The problem with this model, the reason it's not OK at all, the reason why you should boycott it is:
There is not limit to what they can charge you for (You are paying for a variable item). So you think you are OK with only 95% of the game. What about 50% next week. What about 25% of the game next month.
You are paying for a partial game, and there is no upfront contract as to how much that partial is. It can and will change over time.
And many of us are getting sick are tired of MMOs anyways. And now you want to pay more? When a non-mmo game has an upfront cost that gives you 100% of the game now and forever.
Are any of you even playing an MMO right now?
We have no idea how "forced" people will feel to get these items. It isn't wise to make absolute statements like that until we see how it actually turns out. If the in game drop rate is 1 in 23096520469703249672403 then sure, you "can" get it in game, but will you?
The problem is that it is in cryptics financial interest to push people into the cash shop by whatever means they think will earn them more money. Not by using judgement of what makes the game better or what will bring more enjoyment to the players, but instead by what they think will chase off the least amount of players and earn the biggest returns.
Lets also be a little honest about it. Cosmetic items will only sell for so long and so many times to people, before they get their fill of them and just lose the desire to purchase more. If there is a cash shop then the company is depending on it to generate revenue and if cosmetics stop selling something else will take their place.
There is always the chance that this somehow works out and even people who don't like RMT in game find it acceptable, but so far nothing is giving that impression.
Well I'm not exactly thrilled about rmt but again if you can earn the items through gameplay for free I do not see why it is an issue with people. if they want to make the arguement that Cryptic is being greedy then so be it but I can tell you that just about everyother developer will think of multiple ways of making money for their product.
Eve, Cabal on line, Perfect World, Req bloody mere. The last three have cash shops.
I will say it again;
Many MMOs right NOW, are infact using RMT. This goes for most all SoE MMOs and as well the king of them WoW which uses RMT for character transfers, gender change, faction change, server change, name change. Also if you pay to attend Blizzcon you then get ingame items, another kind of RMT and to top it off WoW uses their TCG game to give in game WoW rewards.
I hate to say it but RMT is the future. Champions is not alone in this, look at other upcoming big releases. DC Universe, All Points Bulletin, Star Wars the Old Republic, The Agency, Diablo 3, Aion (in other countries, could be NA as well) and I am positive many more of them as well but I can not say for certain.
I am no fan of RMT, however it is reality. If RMT is to be used as Champions Online plans to, being mostly fluff and also offering many RMT items in game as well, then really, it is not so bad. I could care less if Joe Hero spends 20 dollars on some custom stuff, and if it can be attained in game, I may never know Joe Hero bought it via RMT at all.
RMT could very well expand into being able to buy in game currency, xp, all the stuff that is truly a concern. I do not like this sort of RMT at all as these are meant to be games, but so many people have forgotten this and treat a MMO as some sort of E-Sport where they must be the best and companies can easily make big money off them.
This is evident by the fact that Gold Farmer companies make billions of dollars per year. The market is HUGE and that is because players buy the gold, the power leveling, the items and the accounts.
To be honest I found out friends I had in game bought gold and I never knew it until they told me, I just thought they farmed it. I also know people who have bought and sold accounts and on paper it annoys me greatly but when I had a friend buy a priest in WoW...I really did not even think twice, was just cool to have them for instances.
I would also like to say that I would much prefer this sort of business handled by the game company themselves then outside farming companies the clutter the in game world and cause a lot of headaches for real players. Im not saying I like this form of RMT at all but in the end, picking between them the lesser of the evils is the company which is safe and getting profits from us rather then spending them to combat gold farming companies!
RMT is here, it is the future and we need to learn to adapt to it or give up playing MMOs, really all there is to it at this point. The best we can do is be that vocal minority on the forums and do our best to steer RMT into something safe and for fun and fluff and ensure RMT does not become something that is shoved down our throats or has any impact on the actual game we buy.
Oh and to the poster who said they wont buy Champions because you will have vanilla costume choices and be forced to buy the good ones. Don't be so naive! The game will have tons of amazing choices to hook the players. If they launched some boring bare bones game with everything else RMT, it would kill the game. They NEED to hook us in and love the game in order to get us to a point where we want to spend money on RMT.
The only question I have is this, is it having a monthly fee AND microtransations, because if so thats retarded and this game will never be touched. If its f2P and has microtransactions I'll play it purely because its free and I'll never touch the micro transactions, either way their post doesnt say and I dont like that
Mess with the best, Die like the rest
After much soul searching I pre-ordered it. I do play CoX and if they keep the RMT at that level - which I do not use, then ok. If it becomes more than that then I will quit the game and flame the company in the forums for their choice.
I agree 100% and am relieved to see someone that thinks like I do.
To Sandblox:
First of all, bigger fonts don't make whatever you're posting more important, just harder to read.
Now, in the matter of RMT.
What Blizzard (and other companies are doing) is something different than what Champions Online and some of the newer released titles intend to do. Personally, I want companies to impose some sort of barrier in name changes, server transfers etc. so as not to trivialise the process. I don't want player X to scam, then change his name or server and disappear from the radar to repeat the process. If somebody wants to change his nickname or the server he's in, I want some sort of barrier so he won't server hop every couple of days. Whether that barrier is money or time restriction or both, I don't mind.
However here we're talking about something else.
You have a game that appearance matters because armor etc do not change the appearance. You also have a game where powers are the equivalent of gear in other games. Both of those are sold in item mall. I wouldn't mind if the game was F2P, but since this is not the case, I exercise my right both to complain and avoid the game. Just like I avoided EQ2, HGL and other games.
This model reeks of desperation. Only companies that feel they will not have viable number of subscriptions would stoop to this kind of watering down their gameplay. Aion is P2P only as far as I know. The rest of the games you mentioned share similar mentality, aka they predict low number of subscriptions so they will try to milk those subscribers for as much as possible. This does not bode well for the quality of the game over time. In fact, I would predict that the less subscribers they get, the more items will be offered via item mall.
This new model will only work as long as we tolerate it. As it stands now:
Game down the drain
If I choose to get a P2Pmmorpg I want that not every single noob buys his gear ( or costume for that matter ) in 5 min where you worked months for it. ( besides the fact its rediculous to ask month pay + micro ). Many have tryed that ... guess what they went F2P or they went bankrupt...
Guess its far easyer now to choose for Aion ^^
Originally posted by Daffid011 That super suit you spent 3 months working on could end up in the cash shop for 50 cents tomorrow. How would that make you feel? The developer can slowly nerf xp gain to nudge people to buy xp potions (or whatever). They can offer items better than in game rewards or simply easier to get to same items with a few bucks. That is not how a game should be designed and just having the temptation available to the developers is to much risk for the players. There is no cap on what they can or will do and the possibilities are limitless. It cannot be said that they are only fluff items, because they already admit some items will not be. What happens if they sell an item that is to powerful and it needs to be nerfed? Just from a design standpoint it is a bad idea to do this for the interest of the customers. There is no real gain to players when developers with hold items and demand a random be paid so that they can be played with. I can't think of one benefit to the players at all. None. I can think of many bad things that can happen which will have negative impacts on a game.
This is my biggest concern. The most legitimate and disturbing point. Where does it end? Why not crank up every desirable item or achievement possible for the pay to win crowd? The way most of you here feel(read all comments), it doesnt matter. Oooohh well *shrug*. It wont ruin my game....today. It might stay, mostly, irrelevant to the majority of players. The problem will arise when these things are implemented to ratchet up the 'revenue', 'profit', or the loss of those(previous mentions) due to the exodus/shortage of subscription holders to fulfil projections. I believe they will eventually(first mo., first yr., etc.) get to this. The shackles are off from the jump.
These companies are doing so horrible running these games in terms of finances, using the standard model of P2P. Correct? They need to curb the freefall of their poorly designed game by allowing anyone to be a winner!!....for (many) small cash payments, above the 15 bucks everyone pays. Pee on my leg and tell me its raining! Wake up call folks. These games make piles of money. Piles! If you think not, then you're an idiot. The ones that do not make money are trash, have poor appeal, or cost too damn much in the first place(TR, MxO, AA).
First you make a good game. Good game = majority agrees its worth a subscription fee. Then break the standard mold of P2P not by raising or adding costs to that model, but lowering the costs in the model. If a company would step out and offer their game for $10 a month, I believe it would invigorate competition in the marketplace again and likely be a hit. Remember, establish 'good game'(somewhat debatable) first. WoW would completely break the backs of anyone even attempting to move in on the same block with a change like this. They wont though, cause they are gluttons with overwhelming greed. LOL, well maybe only slightly gluttonous with partly disgusting greed!
I didn't see any info on powers being sold in game or out of it for that matter. please provide a link for that specific info. Not that I don't believe you but seeing a link verifies that you are not trolling.
Well said.
People just do not see the precedents anymore. They have tunnel vision on what is initially offered and don't seem concerned where the trend is heading. A few years ago someone would have been laughed off the forums if they said a gaming company would sell items directly to players in a subscription based game or that they would allow cash sales between players in game.
Right now the companies want to sell power items that people must buy, but the major goal is to get people to accept rmt as a game standard. They desperately need people to be indifferent and say things like "its only fluff items" or "it won't affect gameplay" while holding the false belief that rmt will somehow be limited to those types of items. As if there is some rulebook stating what a company can and cannot sell. Really they are counting on that level of apathy to introduce rmt into games, because it is nothing but extra money for them for no extra work. Like Greenchaos said, they are now selling you 95% of a game and offering you the last 5% of additional fees. Soon it will be 90%....
It time, if people roll over to this kind of thing, companies will keep pushing the limits until it is in free fall or customers have enough and walk away. That is where this is heading and neither look like a winning situation to me.
To anyone who thinks this isn't a big deal, please try to look at the potential of what it can and most likely will become. Looking at the items now and thinking they are only fluff is self deception.
In the end paying a subscription fee and having content held hostage in a cash item shop is a net loss for you and I, the customer. There is no way to explain that away.
Well said.
People just do not see the precedents anymore. They have tunnel vision on what is initially offered and don't seem concerned where the trend is heading. A few years ago someone would have been laughed off the forums if they said a gaming company would sell items directly to players in a subscription based game or that they would allow cash sales between players in game.
Right now the companies want to sell power items that people must buy, but the major goal is to get people to accept rmt as a game standard. They desperately need people to be indifferent and say things like "its only fluff items" or "it won't affect gameplay" while holding the false belief that rmt will somehow be limited to those types of items. As if there is some rulebook stating what a company can and cannot sell. Really they are counting on that level of apathy to introduce rmt into games, because it is nothing but extra money for them for no extra work. Like Greenchaos said, they are now selling you 95% of a game and offering you the last 5% of additional fees. Soon it will be 90%....
It time, if people roll over to this kind of thing, companies will keep pushing the limits until it is in free fall or customers have enough and walk away. That is where this is heading and neither look like a winning situation to me.
To anyone who thinks this isn't a big deal, please try to look at the potential of what it can and most likely will become. Looking at the items now and thinking they are only fluff is self deception.
In the end paying a subscription fee and having content held hostage in a cash item shop is a net loss for you and I, the customer. There is no way to explain that away.
Things are changing.
For the worse or better, that part is based on perception. I don't care what the market is doing, because there will always be a competitor willing to give me something I want. When the day comes that I can't find that, I think we will have much bigger problems than MMOs.
I also expected this since Gold-Seller became a common topic. Gold-sellers and buyers may have been a sore point for developers as it hurt the game, but i'm certain CEOs and Investors were moaning that the money wasn't going to the company.
There is a HUGE portion of the market willing to pay more than the monthly subscription fee, and the companies very much want that money coming to the game rather than a gold/character seller.
I shrug at it... when companies offered paid character transfers and other services for a fee... I knew things would change.
The sun still rises in the east and sets in the west.
Empires, cultures, and customs rise and fall.
I'll change to keep up with it.
Perhaps you didn't get the memo... But the OBJECT of this exercise is PROFIT. Now how that is achieved is the devil of the details. F2P, P2P, cash shop or what ever combination they want to try is fine with me. Just so long as I ENJOY the game. I, unlike far too many do not begrudge the Dev's compensation for their YEARS of hard work, and the application of their talent, experience and millions and millions of dollars(usually of other peoples money).
The simply horrible thing is that those investors actually expect to make a profit on their investment of those millions and millions. I tell you Comrade, come the Day of the Glorious Peoples Revolution, such types will be the FIRST on the wall! But until that Great Day arrives, we must struggle along with such "greedy" types in our midst as best we can...
Those who can not see that time/money can be interchangeable(when done properly) either have not thought things through, or are victims of their own bias. Some types think NOTHING of spending endless time in a game to achieve their goals. Of course, they go in to hysterics if there is another route(in addition to their time investment) for those who value their time more than their money. The Dev's are *selling* ENTERTAINMENT. Now the medium of exchange can be investing time and/or money. You do realize that time IS money? Look at the 4-6(or more) hours a day that some people spend playing. Now multiply that by even the minimum wage(and some of us make a LOT more than that) and you have the the real cost of your entertainment. But if the game is entertaining, that doesn't matter. Its all about perceptions and expectations in the final analysis.
This is an excellent post and exactly goes to my point. especially this:
"I think you are mistaking revenue for profit."
Are you kidding me? What business in it's right mind, would stick around or invest in MMOs for the last 10 years if it wasn't making a profit. I sure as hell wouldn't if it was just breaking even, let alone revenue that isn't keeping me in the black.
The mistake you are making, though your initial assessment is correct, is that all these companies have all the same expenditures and no debt, etc.
Game development is becoming more and more expensive. Given that the chance of failure for these online games is great, it makes a great deal of sense to maximize the profit one gets.
If you can show me that these companies, after their quarterly expenses, dealing with investors, etc are stuffing their company couches with 1,000.00 dollar bills then fine. But I suspect that that is not the case. But who knows, maybe their lowest employees are riding around in gold rocket cars and marrying stripper wives (reference anyone?)
So sure, they are probably making a profit but is that profit enough for them to continue well into the future? I know my company has had several discussions during our quarterly meetings with regards to our future pipeline and is it enough to ride out the current recession, not to mention the fall of our stock price.
Because what you are saying is that if a company has been in bussines for years then there is no reason for it to worry about future profit. And we both know that that is not the case if we look at the news and see all the companies that are having financial difficulty after being in business for years.
I mean, look at General Motors. I can't say "hey look do you think they would be in business all those years if they weren't making a profit". Well, looks like they have a lot of issues and profit was part of it. Large union contracts could be part of it as well, as well as a bad product for a number of years.
That's why the subscription rate has gotten more expensive over the last 10 years, but at an acceptable rate. Subscriptions plus MT is pure greed, they're hoping to rip off the customers and see if they can get away with it. The cost of games hasn't gone up enough to justify such a large increase of revenue and the quality of these games hasn't improved enough to charge premium rates.
This is capitalism at it's best and worst. They may be pushing to see what the market will bear and it may pay off, but it can also burn and bankrupt them from the backlash. I won't bear it and there could very well be many, many more like me. Either way, I'm done with this genre when the games I want to play don't offer me a plain old reasonable subscription.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Well said.
People just do not see the precedents anymore. They have tunnel vision on what is initially offered and don't seem concerned where the trend is heading. A few years ago someone would have been laughed off the forums if they said a gaming company would sell items directly to players in a subscription based game or that they would allow cash sales between players in game.
Right now the companies want to sell power items that people must buy, but the major goal is to get people to accept rmt as a game standard. They desperately need people to be indifferent and say things like "its only fluff items" or "it won't affect gameplay" while holding the false belief that rmt will somehow be limited to those types of items. As if there is some rulebook stating what a company can and cannot sell. Really they are counting on that level of apathy to introduce rmt into games, because it is nothing but extra money for them for no extra work. Like Greenchaos said, they are now selling you 95% of a game and offering you the last 5% of additional fees. Soon it will be 90%....
It time, if people roll over to this kind of thing, companies will keep pushing the limits until it is in free fall or customers have enough and walk away. That is where this is heading and neither look like a winning situation to me.
To anyone who thinks this isn't a big deal, please try to look at the potential of what it can and most likely will become. Looking at the items now and thinking they are only fluff is self deception.
In the end paying a subscription fee and having content held hostage in a cash item shop is a net loss for you and I, the customer. There is no way to explain that away.
Things are changing.
For the worse or better, that part is based on perception. I don't care what the market is doing, because there will always be a competitor willing to give me something I want. When the day comes that I can't find that, I think we will have much bigger problems than MMOs.
I also expected this since Gold-Seller became a common topic. Gold-sellers and buyers may have been a sore point for developers as it hurt the game, but i'm certain CEOs and Investors were moaning that the money wasn't going to the company.
There is a HUGE portion of the market willing to pay more than the monthly subscription fee, and the companies very much want that money coming to the game rather than a gold/character seller.
I shrug at it... when companies offered paid character transfers and other services for a fee... I knew things would change.
The sun still rises in the east and sets in the west.
Empires, cultures, and customs rise and fall.
I'll change to keep up with it.
Speaking from a profit viewpoint:
When you keep RMT illegal you also keep an influx of banned players purchasing new accounts, while you keep those that utterly hate RMT (yes, this people exist, and no matter how much you call them trolls, they've shown their presence in here and in CO forums defending their view of what is the limit in legal RMT transactions and that offering in-game items be it for show or for functions is trespassing that limit, especially when there is already a retail cost and monthly fees to support the game from their part).
They want that money going to illegal RMTs, but they will lose the customers that hate RMT past a certain level.
And yeah, those that accept this new level of RMT are actually speeding the process of whatever the next level may be (or actually stopping the process), you should be concerned unless you don't mind spending more and more to play a game because that's what will happen.
Fact is that it is much profitable for developers to provide a game based on how much money you spend rather than how much time you spend, and this is when games stop being games, at least when we're talking about the original purpose of games.
To elderotter:
www.champions-online.com/node/92892
Bullet no.1 deals with appearances.
Bullet no.2 deals with account management tools
Bullet no.3 deals with ... nothing, just a comment
Bullet no.4 opens all powers (anything that has a game effect) into microtransaction, as long as it can obtained ingame as well.
First of all, keep in mind that they will definitely keep the RMT items desirable, so they can sell. How much desirable, depends on how much they can get away with before the subscription paying crowd starts yelling "murder". Also it's not unreasonable to think that the less subscriptions they have, the more areas of the game will be covered with RMT to compensate.
Also please think a bit down the line, when the game is established and lets say that there are three tiers of dungeons. The majority of the players are old, so they are working their way on the last tier, while very few people bother with tier 1. Unfortunately, that's where the powers to advance you to tier2 dungeons are, for a new player. So you are facing either hoping that a unpopular tier1 happens at some point, or you just buy the powers and move on to the next tier.
Bottom line, it creates a precedence I'm not willing to be a part of, whether some people think it's the future or not. It is my choice not to be part of this particular type of future.
Well said.
People just do not see the precedents anymore. They have tunnel vision on what is initially offered and don't seem concerned where the trend is heading. A few years ago someone would have been laughed off the forums if they said a gaming company would sell items directly to players in a subscription based game or that they would allow cash sales between players in game.
Right now the companies want to sell power items that people must buy, but the major goal is to get people to accept rmt as a game standard. They desperately need people to be indifferent and say things like "its only fluff items" or "it won't affect gameplay" while holding the false belief that rmt will somehow be limited to those types of items. As if there is some rulebook stating what a company can and cannot sell. Really they are counting on that level of apathy to introduce rmt into games, because it is nothing but extra money for them for no extra work. Like Greenchaos said, they are now selling you 95% of a game and offering you the last 5% of additional fees. Soon it will be 90%....
It time, if people roll over to this kind of thing, companies will keep pushing the limits until it is in free fall or customers have enough and walk away. That is where this is heading and neither look like a winning situation to me.
To anyone who thinks this isn't a big deal, please try to look at the potential of what it can and most likely will become. Looking at the items now and thinking they are only fluff is self deception.
In the end paying a subscription fee and having content held hostage in a cash item shop is a net loss for you and I, the customer. There is no way to explain that away.
Things are changing.
For the worse or better, that part is based on perception. I don't care what the market is doing, because there will always be a competitor willing to give me something I want. When the day comes that I can't find that, I think we will have much bigger problems than MMOs.
I also expected this since Gold-Seller became a common topic. Gold-sellers and buyers may have been a sore point for developers as it hurt the game, but i'm certain CEOs and Investors were moaning that the money wasn't going to the company.
There is a HUGE portion of the market willing to pay more than the monthly subscription fee, and the companies very much want that money coming to the game rather than a gold/character seller.
I shrug at it... when companies offered paid character transfers and other services for a fee... I knew things would change.
The sun still rises in the east and sets in the west.
Empires, cultures, and customs rise and fall.
I'll change to keep up with it.
Speaking from a profit viewpoint:
When you keep RMT illegal you also keep an influx of banned players purchasing new accounts, while you keep those that utterly hate RMT (yes, this people exist, and no matter how much you call them trolls, they've shown their presence in here and in CO forums defending their view of what is the limit in legal RMT transactions and that offering in-game items be it for show or for functions is trespassing that limit, especially when there is already a retail cost and monthly fees to support the game from their part).
They want that money going to illegal RMTs, but they will lose the customers that hate RMT past a certain level.
And yeah, those that accept this new level of RMT are actually speeding the process of whatever the next level may be (or actually stopping the process), you should be concerned unless you don't mind spending more and more to play a game because that's what will happen.
Fact is that it is much profitable for developers to provide a game based on how much money you spend rather than how much time you spend, and this is when games stop being games, at least when we're talking about the original purpose of games.
Why shouldn't that money go to the Dev's? Its their game after all. Why should some third parties be making huge profits off of their hard work? The fact that third parties exist(with a market well over a billion dollars world wide) states that there IS a demand. Its all in how its handled, and how popular perception is dealt with.
As for the last, I was always under the impression that the "original purpose of games" was ENTERTAINMENT. Why should that cease, simply because there are other options?
If such a thing as an "illegal" activity exists, the idea is that the company police it, not take over it and run it themselves.
seein an above post where someone mentioned y shouldnt the money go to the devs, well i mean thats fine with me, more money devs have to work with, the more they can do with their game. im iffy on RMT things being incorporated into my games i play. but i wont turn it away either. the stuff EQ2 offers i believe in their marketplace isnt game changing. i see alot of cosmetic , fluff, pets, house items, but off brief browsing havent seen game altering buyable items that arent accessible through say veteran rewards. overal. i wont let RMT incorporation into champions deter my checking this one out. its char creation alone is enough to draw me in for at least the first month. so someone can buy something. if its somethin i can earn out of my own hardwork so be it. theres more satisfaction earning a nice item through good hard work and progress ne way
Waiting For: FF14,Guild Wars2
RIP: Tabula Rasa&Hellgate:London(online)
Playing:Fallen Earth&Guild Wars& Dragon Age
Things are changing.
For the worse or better, that part is based on perception. I don't care what the market is doing, because there will always be a competitor willing to give me something I want. When the day comes that I can't find that, I think we will have much bigger problems than MMOs.
I also expected this since Gold-Seller became a common topic. Gold-sellers and buyers may have been a sore point for developers as it hurt the game, but i'm certain CEOs and Investors were moaning that the money wasn't going to the company.
There is a HUGE portion of the market willing to pay more than the monthly subscription fee, and the companies very much want that money coming to the game rather than a gold/character seller.
I shrug at it... when companies offered paid character transfers and other services for a fee... I knew things would change.
The sun still rises in the east and sets in the west.
Empires, cultures, and customs rise and fall.
I'll change to keep up with it.
Speaking from a profit viewpoint:
When you keep RMT illegal you also keep an influx of banned players purchasing new accounts, while you keep those that utterly hate RMT (yes, this people exist, and no matter how much you call them trolls, they've shown their presence in here and in CO forums defending their view of what is the limit in legal RMT transactions and that offering in-game items be it for show or for functions is trespassing that limit, especially when there is already a retail cost and monthly fees to support the game from their part).
They want that money going to illegal RMTs, but they will lose the customers that hate RMT past a certain level.
And yeah, those that accept this new level of RMT are actually speeding the process of whatever the next level may be (or actually stopping the process), you should be concerned unless you don't mind spending more and more to play a game because that's what will happen.
Fact is that it is much profitable for developers to provide a game based on how much money you spend rather than how much time you spend, and this is when games stop being games, at least when we're talking about the original purpose of games.
You sound as if you are of an older MMO mentality. The new customer base is raised on the concept of small purchases from a digital market place. XBox/Windows Live, Playstation Store, or Wii Shop. Perhaps even Steam for small games?
It isn't just in MMOs, but an entire gaming industry where small games or addons are being sold for less than $5 a piece. A time when players understand and accept microtransactions without blinking an eye. Subscriptions are fading when it comes to digital delivery of entertainment.
Sure many of us MMO players will gripe about it, but what about the new faces in the market in 5 years? What about just 1-2?
On my colored text... I don't ever spend more than I want. When that time comes where I can't afford it or don't want to pay... i stop playing.
You seem to understand that developers don't want money over a length of time... and the only real point I have to make on that is that I blame "World/Server Firsts". A new generation that wants it faster and better than other players, while asking developers to keep up with content the players push through. A rate that is quicker than Dev's working on a subscription income want...
Making new content at a rate which can keep up with the "World/Server Firsts" generation of MMO players has got to be very difficult on a subscription based plan. To speed up content output, you need more subscriptions... which in itself brings in other costs.
But... by putting more of the burden of content creation costs on the player who wants it faster and better... you are able to get the money you need quicker. Charging based on development costs, and not a "standard industry rate", is fair and smart in my mind.
Sure they could raise monthly subscription costs... but no one likes a rate hike and few will believe or accept a true/correct explanation.
RMT's APPEAR cheaper at $5 dollars a dungeon... and putting in a purchase-point system also helps that perception.
*shrug* You claim this is a problem we players should care about... but I believe this problem was made BY the players.