This Is Church, Dammit !!!

MarleVVLL

Originally posted by Jeffs


[it] is just drawing attention away from the more disturbing and sickening acts of persuasion religions are guilty of, for example:


- Telling small children they'll burn in hell for eternity if they don't believe you.

- Attempting, and often succeeding, to corrupt or halt a person’s education.

- Making ears bleed through Christian rock bands.


I could go on

 

Okay. There is a critical flaw with your statement. You assume you're right. If you're mother had cancer and if I were the doctor, I would be the most DISHONORABLE person on this planet if I did not tell your mother her fate and the way to help her. Children must understand that there no God but YHWH and Yeshua is His Son. They will suffer the wrath of God against them unless they repent of their wicked ways and turn in faith to Him.

Your second point assumes you're right.

The third is mostly true, sadly enough. I listen to Andy Mckee more than I do 'Christian rock'..

Jeffs

Originally posted by MarleVVLL

Originally posted by Jeffs


[it] is just drawing attention away from the more disturbing and sickening acts of persuasion religions are guilty of, for example:


- Telling small children they'll burn in hell for eternity if they don't believe you.

- Attempting, and often succeeding, to corrupt or halt a person’s education.

- Making ears bleed through Christian rock bands.


I could go on

 

Okay. There is a critical flaw with your statement. You assume you're right. If you're mother had cancer and if I were the doctor, I would be the most DISHONORABLE person on this planet if I did not tell your mother her fate and the way to help her. Children must understand that there no God but YHWH and Yeshua is His Son. They will suffer the wrath of God against them unless they repent of their wicked ways and turn in faith to Him.

Your second point assumes you're right.

The third is mostly true, sadly enough. I listen to Andy Mckee more than I do 'Christian rock'..

 

 

My second point does indeed depend on your idea of truth. I don't think anyone can deny that scientific truth should be priority when teaching children, creationism should never have any priority over evolution. If you disagree I challenge you to demonstrate your full understanding of the theory of evolution in detail.

As for my first point you're wrong, I don't need to assume that I'm right. You're wrong because you assume that you're right. Telling a child that if they make the smallest mistake without repenting seriously they will burn for an eternity can scar and damage them. So in order to justify this act of child abuse you need to be 100% certain that you are correct, even if you are correct there's little to no pain in just asking them not to sin and telling them the full details of why not to when they're old enough to understand.

There's no excuse for mentally damaging a child, just like there's no excuse to physically damage a child. As for your example:

"If you're mother had cancer and if I were the doctor, I would be the most DISHONORABLE person on this planet if I did not tell your mother her fate and the way to help her."

This analogy doesn't fit because the doctor would know conclusively through scientific tests that she had cancer. You, however, have just as much proof as any other religion does (zero). A closer analogy would be a psychic telling everyone they see that they have cancer because she thinks they do, would this be fair?

 

MarleVVLL

Originally posted by Jeffs


My second point does indeed depend on your idea of truth. I don't think anyone can deny that scientific truth should be priority when teaching children, creationism should never have any priority over evolution. If you disagree I challenge you to demonstrate your full understanding of the theory of evolution in detail.
As you said, it depends on who is right. If the event of creation in fact did occur, then it MUST be taught as fact - whether or not someone 'believes' it or not. However, I'm not interested in a scientific debate. Sure, that sounds like a coop out, but I'm one to be honest that I don't know all the details but if you're so confident that the Bible is not the very Word of God given to man, then I would ask that you prove your point.
As for my first point you're wrong, I don't need to assume that I'm right. You're wrong because you assume that you're right.
I'm not sure I follow your logic. I am wrong if I'm proven wrong, but because of an assumption. I'm sure you know this, but I wanted to clarify we are on the right page.
Telling a child that if they make the smallest mistake without repenting seriously they will burn for an eternity can scar and damage them.
If its true, then it is up to the messenger to deliver the news in a way that is helpful to the person. If the doctor told your mom she had cancer, he probably RUINED her entire week! But that DOES NOT MATTER! It is TRUE and the truth MUST be known!
However, the Bible actually teaches that you don't even have to sin in action, thought, heart or deed to deserve the wrath of God - offensive as it sounds. . . but that is another conversation altogether.
So in order to justify this act of child abuse you need to be 100% certain that you are correct, even if you are correct there's little to no pain in just asking them not to sin and telling them the full details of why not to when they're old enough to understand.
I don't believe its child abuse. I believe one could phrase the truth in a way that could pose unnecessary harm, but 'child abuse' is too exaggerated to be deemed an accurate description of what the Bible says. Abortion is child abuse - not leading a child in the right direction in pointing them to the Author of Life!
Also, 'not sinning' is in no way helpful. If anything, that could be even MORE destructive than actually allowing the ones to continue in their perverse ways.
And sure, there is an age for children that they can come to understand the finer details, but a child understands when they do something wrong quite quickly. Its an easy introduction to the mercy of Jesus.
There's no excuse for mentally damaging a child, just like there's no excuse to physically damage a child. As for your example:
"If you're mother had cancer and if I were the doctor, I would be the most DISHONORABLE person on this planet if I did not tell your mother her fate and the way to help her."
This analogy doesn't fit because the doctor would know conclusively through scientific tests that she had cancer. You, however, have just as much proof as any other religion does (zero).
I have more proof than I know what to do with. What do you want? Historical proven and tested prophecy? Miracles? Signs? Name it. "allah" has none of it.
A closer analogy would be a psychic telling everyone they see that they have cancer because she thinks they do, would this be fair?
I would say no, because you used the word 'think', instead of a confident 'knowing'.

 

sniperg

Originally posted by MarleVVLL

Originally posted by Jeffs


[it] is just drawing attention away from the more disturbing and sickening acts of persuasion religions are guilty of, for example:


- Telling small children they'll burn in hell for eternity if they don't believe you.

- Attempting, and often succeeding, to corrupt or halt a person’s education.

- Making ears bleed through Christian rock bands.


I could go on

 

 Children must understand that there no God but YHWH and Yeshua is His Son. They will suffer the wrath of God against them unless they repent of their wicked ways and turn in faith to Him.

Ooooooor maybe children must understand that proselytising is wrong and they should do something useful with their time without worrying which of the religions will send them to hell and/or brainwash them.

MarleVVLL

If God exists as He says He does as revealed in Scripture than I am doing the most noble, honorable and wise actions humanly possible.

If not,

then I ought to be pitied above all men.

Fishermage

Originally posted by MarleVVLL


If God exists as He says He does as revealed in Scripture than I am doing the most noble, honorable and wise actions humanly possible.
If not,
then I ought to be pitied above all men.

 

Or you could be simply mistaken in your interpretation of what He is revealing in scripture, and be making a wrong turning youself -- then you are to be pitied the same as all men. BUt the glory and the good news is He died for your sins so worry not; repent, move on and sin no more.

Just get on with the business of setting the captives free and loving they neighbor

Jeffs

If its true, then it is up to the messenger to deliver the news in a way that is helpful to the person. If the doctor told your mom she had cancer, he probably RUINED her entire week! But that DOES NOT MATTER! It is TRUE and the truth MUST be known!

Your blind unquestioned faith is blocking the point, what if the doctor didn't know? What if it was just his personal beliefs? Would you still agree that he's obliged to tell her it's a matter of fact even when he's not sure and she's probably absolutely fine?

Believe what you will, delude yourself any means necessary. But please reconsider before you enforce your delusions on innocent children through the powerfully horrific description of hell.

 

I don't believe its child abuse. I believe one could phrase the truth in a way that could pose unnecessary harm, but 'child abuse' is too exaggerated to be deemed an accurate description of what the Bible says. Abortion is child abuse - not leading a child in the right direction in pointing them to the Author of Life!

You're enforcing your beliefs on children who know no better by threatening them with burning and searing pain for eternity if they don't believe you. I'm sure if your god is real he'll have more respect for a child who simply wasn't told about him and couldn't have known better to the child who believes in him but only because he's scared of being hurt for all time.

I have more proof than I know what to do with. What do you want? Historical proven and tested prophecy? Miracles? Signs? Name it. "allah" has none of it.

 

Each time I read through this part I laugh in my head. Do you really think there's any more proof (or any at all) behind christianity than islam? You may have it programmed into your shallow head that muhammed was a false prophet just like all the others excluding Jesus, but there's just as much proof that Jesus was a lunatic with a clown nose and green hair (nothing but superstition).

 

 

Wickersham

My 1st thought was: "that cathedral needs to sponsor a monster truck or a nascar or something..."

Then I started thinking up names for the monster truck and decided on "Jesuspwns", but figured that it'd be way too bloody sacrilegious - I mean, I guess it's okay for a blog site, but I feel that a monster truck should have more grace.

MarleVVLL

Originally posted by Jeffs

Your blind unquestioned faith is blocking the point, what if the doctor didn't know? What if it was just his personal beliefs? Would you still agree that he's obliged to tell her it's a matter of fact even when he's not sure and she's probably absolutely fine?
You assume that 1) my faith is blind which indicates 2) I don't know. My faith is not blind (through the proofs that you are unaware of) and therefore, I can see clearly to discern Truth.
Believe what you will, delude yourself any means necessary. But please reconsider before you enforce your delusions on innocent children through the powerfully horrific description of hell.
You do not know what I have fought through in order to come to the conclusion that I made. You don't know my personal story and you don't know what I have struggled through. Granted, I don't know yours, but I also consider that as well.
I have considered the cost. I've even doubted at times too. I've thought through what it would be like to endure such a punishment. I've thought about what it would be like if I were wrong, and if islam is right (because I would go to hell, or their version of the lake of fire). I've considered my punishment from other gods if they were real, as I'm a preacher of Another.


You're enforcing your beliefs on children who know no better by threatening them with burning and searing pain for eternity if they don't believe you.
I share the mercy of Jesus with them; not just the wickedness of our own hearts. However, obviously, with children, it probably isn't helpful to merely scare them into belief; although, being scared into belief is better than not believing at all.
I'm sure if your god is real he'll have more respect for a child who simply wasn't told about him and couldn't have known better to the child who believes in him but only because he's scared of being hurt for all time.
My God does not rule by your rules, your beliefs, your 'convictions' or your philosophies. My God is God. He is the King and He is the Judge. He has manifested His personal revelation and universal-absolute Law through the pages of the Bible.
However, being scared of being hurt all the time is not what I'm about OR what God/Jesus is about at all! They are about holiness, love, joy, peace and righteousness.
Each time I read through this part I laugh in my head. Do you really think there's any more proof (or any at all) behind christianity than islam?
Sure. Instead of mocking me, want to see it?
You may have it programmed into your shallow head that muhammed was a false prophet just like all the others excluding Jesus, but there's just as much proof that Jesus was a lunatic with a clown nose and green hair (nothing but superstition).
Not proof, mere rumor. However, if Jesus was not the Son of God, He was either a lunatic with a clown nose or a mad man. There really isn't another option for this very unique Person.

 

 

MarleVVLL

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by MarleVVLL


If God exists as He says He does as revealed in Scripture than I am doing the most noble, honorable and wise actions humanly possible.
If not,
then I ought to be pitied above all men.

 

Or you could be simply mistaken in your interpretation of what He is revealing in scripture, and be making a wrong turning youself -- then you are to be pitied the same as all men. BUt the glory and the good news is He died for your sins so worry not; repent, move on and sin no more.

Just get on with the business of setting the captives free and loving they neighbor

 

I'm willing to be wrong of peripheral, side issues but not concerning the ONLY way to the Father - Jesus.

Fishermage

Originally posted by MarleVVLL

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by MarleVVLL


If God exists as He says He does as revealed in Scripture than I am doing the most noble, honorable and wise actions humanly possible.
If not,
then I ought to be pitied above all men.

 

Or you could be simply mistaken in your interpretation of what He is revealing in scripture, and be making a wrong turning youself -- then you are to be pitied the same as all men. BUt the glory and the good news is He died for your sins so worry not; repent, move on and sin no more.

Just get on with the business of setting the captives free and loving they neighbor

 

I'm willing to be wrong of peripheral, side issues but not concerning the ONLY way to the Father - Jesus.

 

But is it a jesus who requires us to jump hoops for Him, or an infinitely loving being who forcives and take son all our sins?

sniperg

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by MarleVVLL

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by MarleVVLL


If God exists as He says He does as revealed in Scripture than I am doing the most noble, honorable and wise actions humanly possible.
If not,
then I ought to be pitied above all men.

 

Or you could be simply mistaken in your interpretation of what He is revealing in scripture, and be making a wrong turning youself -- then you are to be pitied the same as all men. BUt the glory and the good news is He died for your sins so worry not; repent, move on and sin no more.

Just get on with the business of setting the captives free and loving they neighbor

 

I'm willing to be wrong of peripheral, side issues but not concerning the ONLY way to the Father - Jesus.

 

But is it a jesus who requires us to jump hoops for Him, or an infinitely loving being who forcives and take son all our sins?

Or maybe a normal man that was killed because he said that we should be a bit nicer to each other?

PS. And what I find it funny and sad at the same time when I think about it, is that if Jesus existed and returned back once more to Earth, it would be the christian zealots that would crucify him not the "heathens".

Fishermage

Originally posted by sniperg

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by MarleVVLL

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by MarleVVLL


If God exists as He says He does as revealed in Scripture than I am doing the most noble, honorable and wise actions humanly possible.
If not,
then I ought to be pitied above all men.

 

Or you could be simply mistaken in your interpretation of what He is revealing in scripture, and be making a wrong turning youself -- then you are to be pitied the same as all men. BUt the glory and the good news is He died for your sins so worry not; repent, move on and sin no more.

Just get on with the business of setting the captives free and loving they neighbor

 

I'm willing to be wrong of peripheral, side issues but not concerning the ONLY way to the Father - Jesus.

 

But is it a jesus who requires us to jump hoops for Him, or an infinitely loving being who forcives and take son all our sins?

Or maybe a normal man that was killed because he said that we should be a bit nicer to each other?

 

Exactly. That too is a possible interpretation of the data available.

MarleVVLL

Originally posted by Fishermage


But is it a jesus who requires us to jump hoops for Him, or an infinitely loving being who forcives and take son all our sins?

Jesus requires one thing: true faith.

What does true faith look like?

Faith in the work of Jesus at the Cross.

Continual repentance of evil works (holiness) and mindsets towards God.

Being filled with the Holy Spirit.

God will not forgive outside of repentance, but He has made a way through the work of His own Son!

MarleVVLL

Originally posted by sniperg


Or maybe a normal man that was killed because he said that we should be a bit nicer to each other?
PS. And what I find it funny and sad at the same time when I think about it, is that if Jesus existed and returned back once more to Earth, it would be the christian zealots that would crucify him not the "heathens".

 

Jesus was/is not a normal man - He is the One true God - and He was not killed because He said, 'be a bit nicer to each other', He was killed because He said, "I am God so turn to Me."

Jesus did not die to make a good people better. He was brutally murdered to save a DEAD (not 'dying' or 'in need' or 'hurting') race of humans from His wrath against all things that hinder and war against love!

And no, a Christian would not kill his Master.

Fishermage

Originally posted by MarleVVLL

Originally posted by Fishermage


But is it a jesus who requires us to jump hoops for Him, or an infinitely loving being who forcives and take son all our sins?

Jesus requires one thing: true faith.

What does true faith look like?

Faith in the work of Jesus at the Cross.

Continual repentance of evil works (holiness) and mindsets towards God.

Being filled with the Holy Spirit.

God will not forgive outside of repentance, but He has made a way through the work of His own Son!

 

None have true faith -- all fall short of that perfection -- all need God to draw you in. All men are rebels in His eyes. repentance is not something you DO, it is a Gift of God. If it is something you do, then YOU are sovereign and not God.

MarleVVLL

Originally posted by Fishermage


None have true faith -- all fall short of that perfection -- all need God to draw you in. All men are rebels in His eyes. repentance is not something you DO, it is a Gift of God. If it is something you do, then YOU are sovereign and not God.

God cannot repent for you. God cannot do your part. He gives us strength to do our part, but He will not violate our free will.

Also, by 'true' faith, I meant authentic faith that James explains in James 2. Yeah, all men have fallen short of the perfection of God and that is why we need to repent and abide by the doctrine of Christ, for without this, we will not have God (2 John 1:9).

EDIT: No, repentance is something that you do. Prove to me that it is not an active action.

Fishermage

Originally posted by MarleVVLL

Originally posted by Fishermage


None have true faith -- all fall short of that perfection -- all need God to draw you in. All men are rebels in His eyes. repentance is not something you DO, it is a Gift of God. If it is something you do, then YOU are sovereign and not God.

God cannot repent for you. God cannot do your part. He gives us strength to do our part, but He will not violate our free will.

Also, by 'true' faith, I meant authentic faith that James explains in James 2. Yeah, all men have fallen short of the perfection of God and that is why we need to repent and abide by the doctrine of Christ, for without this, we will not have God (2 John 1:9).

 

If He is not powerful enough to reject our rejection of Him, if His patience iand forgiveness are not inginite, then Christ died in vain. Satan has won.

None have authentic faith -- all fall short of perfection.

MarleVVLL

EDIT: I'll rephrase. Your point did not make any sense, not to mention you did not back up any of your points with Scripture.

Also, yes, no man is perfected, but Abraham BELIEVED (and proved his faith in a work) and God accredited to him righteousness. The same is with us in regards to Jesus. We put our weak, but REAL faith in His work and we prove this by our fruits and He clothes us in His righteousness.

Fishermage

Originally posted by MarleVVLL


Ah, what?

 

Imagine you have a son. A child that you love dearly. At some point in His teenage years, he says, dad -- I hate you. He leaves. he has comepletely and utterly reject you.

Do you reject him back? Of course not. You either go after him, or hold out for him. Remember the shepherd and teh one lost sheep. the shephed GOES OUT and picks up the sheep and brings it home.

This is our perfect father in heaven. he is willing to hold out forever, as any dad would if he were immortal and perfect love.

It's not that you HAVE to repent, although in a way you do, but in the fullness of His time, like the prodigal Son, you WILL return and He will be there waiting.

And I suspect YOU, MARVVLL, will be just as annoyed as the "good" son. Tough nuggets. His grace is bigger than you or me.

MarleVVLL

We are derailing this thread, but hey, its midnight and no one else is reading this. I suppose if it bugged them enough, they'll just delete this little bunny trail.

You're forgetting all the many times repentance is required to enter into the promise of salvation.

we

MUST

repent.

Yes, God is patient. Yes, God is kind. Yes, God IS love, but His love also manifests in the hatred of all things that are evil. I love babies, so I hate abortion. I love the God given instruction for marriage between a man and a wife, so I hate the homosexual agenda. I love Jesus, so I hate all things that are wicked. Of course, I'm not perfect, nor claim to be. I sin and I stumble, but, with His grace, I get up every time I fall down.

And no, I would not react as the 'good' son because I once was the 'prodigal' son

Fishermage

Originally posted by MarleVVLL


We are derailing this thread, but hey, its midnight and no one else is reading this. I suppose if it bugged them enough, they'll just delete this little bunny trail.
You're forgetting all the many times repentance is required to enter into the promise of salvation.
we
MUST
repent.
Yes, God is patient. Yes, God is kind. Yes, God IS love, but His love also manifests in the hatred of all things that are evil. I love babies, so I hate abortion. I love the God given instruction for marriage between a man and a wife, so I hate the homosexual agenda. I love Jesus, so I hate all things that are wicked. Of course, I'm not perfect, nor claim to be. I sin and I stumble, but, with His grace, I get up every time I fall down.
And no, I would not react as the 'good' son because I once was the 'prodigal' son

all His wrath was pured out with the blood of the lamb. there is no hatred left for evil. It is finished.

Jeffs

You assume that 1) my faith is blind which indicates 2) I don't know. My faith is not blind (through the proofs that you are unaware of) and therefore, I can see clearly to discern Truth.

You do not know what I have fought through in order to come to the conclusion that I made. You don't know my personal story and you don't know what I have struggled through.

I have considered the cost. I've even doubted at times too. I've thought through what it would be like to endure such a punishment. I've thought about what it would be like if I were wrong, and if islam is right (because I would go to hell, or their version of the lake of fire). I've considered my punishment from other gods if they were real, as I'm a preacher of Another.

My God does not rule by your rules, your beliefs, your 'convictions' or your philosophies. My God is God. He is the King and He is the Judge. He has manifested His personal revelation and universal-absolute Law through the pages of the Bible.

However, being scared of being hurt all the time is not what I'm about OR what God/Jesus is about at all! They are about holiness, love, joy, peace and righteousness.

I've grouped these parts of your post together to point out one or two things. You mention you are factually sure that Christianity is the only true religion and your reasoning has a running standard of being "through the proofs that you are unaware of". However, you also say you have a lot of faith, so which is it? Do you have faith in your deity meaning you're not sure you just think and hope or do you actually know? The two are very different things.

Also, what you think has nothing to do with what I'm saying. In every single one of my posts thus far I've tried to get you to understand that it doesn't matter what faith you are it's ALWAYS wrong to hurt children for the sake of it simply because you are never 100% sure, if you disagree then I challenge you to post your proof. You say Jesus is loving and caring and wishes to spread joy and peace, so why is it so vital to your faith that you scare little children over hell?

 

bobbler

that intro made me feel hardcore...

...though religion is for people with weak minds who need some bullshit made up by imbeciles to feel that they have some sort of role to fill in this world. ahahaha I laugh in my head every time I see some deeply religious person. ( I forgot to mention I feel pity for that person because they actually believe that)

Fishermage

Originally posted by bobbler


that intro made me feel hardcore...
...though religion is for people with weak minds who need some bullshit made up by imbeciles to feel that they have some sort of role to fill in this world. ahahaha I laugh in my head every time I see some deeply religious person. ( I forgot to mention I feel pity for that person because they actually believe that)

 

Okay, if religion is for the weak minded, prove it. Prove there is no God.