Should there be some soloing in games, yes there should be, should soloing be the main aspect of mmorpgs like it is today? No
Back when I started playing MMOs (UO/NWN/Meridian) soloing was the main aspect. So this isn't some sort of new and freakish time in MMO history.
Why do they make it more solo friendly? Because there are more people who like to solo than group (raid?), which gives the people who make the game more subscriptions, which in turn gives them more money. When those that group (raid?) are more prevelant than those that like to solo.... well.... I bet you know where this is going...
Its all about the money, not what you personally would like in an MMO, unfortunetly.
I have a different view on what MMOs should be like than you, but we are in the same boat... once again, unfortunetly.
Well in UO i grouped, in 10six i had freinds you better believe and we defended each other, old muds, daoc, eq1, etc i always had much more fun grouping. Infact in the best mmos grouping was required to level at good rates, and that was the old of mmos GROUP with MANY or MASSIVE amounts of players.
The first of the very friend solo games was proably AO (which you coudl solo in wquite well), but wow rewrote the book many people are trying to immitate and they have failed at every attempt.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Yeah, there is no more downtime in MMORPGs anymore. To me, a community is a group of people who rely on each other. Help each other. Work together for a common goal. In today's soloable, casual MMORPGs you don't need to rely on anyone else. You can grind your ass to max level without speaking a word to anyone. That is not a community where I come from.
Well, let's put it this way, the people I have met and befriended in mmo's are very good people in my opinion. I actually like them. From what I know of them I would meet them in real life. I actually have met a few. But in no way shape or form was I always grouped with them. The cool thing about the clan system is that one can chat when one is in the process of doing something else, regardless of whether I am grouped with them. Or, I can party with them chat but not be in the same place in the world.
That is being social. Has nothign to do with being grouped for the same thing.
I could very much group with people non-stop and still not be very social with them.
People are trying to equate grouping as being social. Grouping can lead to being social but from my experience I don't want to be social wtth most of the people I've grouped with. I do want to group more with the people I'm more social with. But, the nice thing is that if they are doing something different or not on I can solo to my heart's content.
I would agree that games need to encourage grouping. In the early days of lineage 2 you had to get into a clan because there really wasn't a great way to protect yourself if you were only alone. If you dropped gear you needed to trust the people who were going to race across the world to pick it up.
But I didn't get close to people by just grouping. It was a slow process.
Maybe this is why I meet so many people online who claim that their friends screwed them over and took their gear or bad mouthed them, etc.
They are not friends. Friends are made over time. Good friends anyways. And constantly grouping is not what has me make those friends. It's only a very small part of the equation.
My thought is that the grouping "group" can only embrace one idea of community and can't really understand that not everyone creates community in the same way. Some of us have large groups of close friends. Some small groups. Some people only hve 2 or 3 real friends.
People are different. Sorry folks, but that's the truth. We do things differently and we desire different things and we socialize differently.
That is why games have to include both types of content. OR they need to be specific to groups such as final fantasy or the early days of Vanguard.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The demise of grouping is symptomatic of the move of MMO’s to being a solo game; no one is saying it is the only way to be a community. We have lost so much from the early days; grouping just happens to be the one thing all the old games had. So its lack in newer games is more noticeable.
Why do people like soloing in a mmorpg? You plow through content no matter how slow you take it, its still fast when soloing, you solo and beat all the content then what? You want for a new patch to come a long when can take months for more content. Soloing is what is killing mmorpgs now a days.
Another silly rant. So what? So go play a new MMORPG. There are plenty of those out there.
I don't see why a game can't offer plenty of both party and solo content...
oh wait, I can see why...
Greed.
Solo players want the same level of gear and loot as the people who party up and do dungeons/raids get.
For some reason they think it's fair to get the same gear by themselves that other people had to work together to get...
That is what is driving this push towards more solo gameplay, honest and simple greed mixed with a bit of jealousy.
Now, I'm NOT advocating forced grouping ala FFXI and such where you CAN'T solo.
I'm just saying give plenty of content for both party and solo play, and STFU about loot disparity and enjoy what you have and are able to get with your playstyle.
That being said, I think crafting should be the solo players way to get high-end gear, just take a lot longer in terms of time investment....
But if you think about time investment in say raiding versus time investment in gathering resources to make an item, unless you are VERY lucky and get the item you want on the first boss kill the two are usually about even... days/weeks.
I don't think soloing is ruining mmos. In fact, it might even be attracting more gamers. The problem comes, however, when you try to force different playstyle content into an existing game to try to appease both sides.
A particular Star Wars game (can't remember it's name) tried doing this, and at the beginning, it did seem successful. However, the content for both playstyles became so watered down that the game started falling out of favor afterwards. Developers probably learned from this example, and now games seem to cater towards one side more than the other now. I personally think that the new gen thinking to this problem is that games will start to incorporate solo and groups "together." Now, I won't state my example with the castle raid by a soloist and a group all over again, since I figure most of the people here have seen that post already. But, let's face it, a company will eventually create a game with this concept. I think UO had this concept (not sure, I haven't played the game), and if that idea contributed to the game's success, that's clear evidence that the idea can work.
Edit Part: Sorry, actually that Star Wars game (I now think it SW:KOTOR) was created with the content for both playstyles, so the Star Wars game isn't an example of my first paragraph's idea.
I don't see why a game can't offer plenty of both party and solo content... oh wait, I can see why... Greed. Solo players want the same level of gear and loot as the people who party up and do dungeons/raids get. For some reason they think it's fair to get the same gear by themselves that other people had to work together to get... That is what is driving this push towards more solo gameplay, honest and simple greed mixed with a bit of jealousy. Now, I'm NOT advocating forced grouping ala FFXI and such where you CAN'T solo. I'm just saying give plenty of content for both party and solo play, and STFU about loot disparity and enjoy what you have and are able to get with your playstyle. That being said, I think crafting should be the solo players way to get high-end gear, just take a lot longer in terms of time investment.... But if you think about time investment in say raiding versus time investment in gathering resources to make an item, unless you are VERY lucky and get the item you want on the first boss kill the two are usually about even... days/weeks.
Riiiiiight nevermind the fact that it takes that solo player far longer to achieve the result and often more risk and a crap load more frustration. But I get what you're saying. You're saying that the group style of play has absolutely nothing to do with greed because all group players use loot systems right and that just because you happen to lead the group your not just grabbing the loot you want first time around so that you don't have to go through another 2 or more hour run to get what you want..but sure everyone else has that kinda time. And we all know loot systems are fair...what? No? Ooooh would that be because most of those systems are ultimately based upon how much time the player has spent doing those 2 to 4 hour raids despite the fact that not all people have that kind of time?
Yea, Solo is greedy and Grouping is not. I completely see your point....
Now, I'm NOT advocating forced grouping ala FFXI and such where you CAN'T solo.
That's a pretty bold accusation... FFXI has changed in the past year and it is now much easier to solo with combat based classes. You don't seriously expect a healer to be able to solo though, do you? It's ludicrous if you do because that's never been the case, except in WoW where every n00b and his mother thinks they're playing an MMO, when all it is is a glorified single player campaign.
Yes, that's right. I went there. You can get from level 1-60 SOLO, I dunno beyond that because I got bored right before Burning Crusade... but I do have the expansion. And what a waste of $50 that was... Sure you can't do any major raids or instances solo, but those are the equivalent of game rooms. You get a group of people together, go into a private little area and fight together.
For those of you who don't believe Soloing is ruining MMOs, it is. It encourages players to keep to themselves. Do you have any clue how many times in WoW I've asked for help for a couple minutes and been refused? Enough to make me quit. Solo play may be "easier" because you're not relying on other people, but its no fun because you lose the whole social aspect of the experience. That's the only reason that I play MMOs, and MMOs that encourage soloing irritate the daylights out of me.
Let it be known that I hate WoW with a passion and will defend almost any MMORPG against it. Current: FFXI (PC/360) Want: FFXIV, Stargate Worlds, Star Trek Online Past: AC, AoC, AO, Atlantica Online, CoH/V, DAoC, Dungeon Runners, D&DO, EVE, Everquest I+II, FlyFF, GW (all), Lineage 2, LOTRO, Mabinogi, Maplestory, PSO (DC/Xbox/PC), PSU (PC/360), PlanetSide, RO, Shadowbane, SWG (Pre-NGE), SotNW, TR, UO, Warhammer Online, WoW, WWIIO
I don't see why a game can't offer plenty of both party and solo content... oh wait, I can see why... Greed. Solo players want the same level of gear and loot as the people who party up and do dungeons/raids get. For some reason they think it's fair to get the same gear by themselves that other people had to work together to get... That is what is driving this push towards more solo gameplay, honest and simple greed mixed with a bit of jealousy. Now, I'm NOT advocating forced grouping ala FFXI and such where you CAN'T solo. I'm just saying give plenty of content for both party and solo play, and STFU about loot disparity and enjoy what you have and are able to get with your playstyle. That being said, I think crafting should be the solo players way to get high-end gear, just take a lot longer in terms of time investment.... But if you think about time investment in say raiding versus time investment in gathering resources to make an item, unless you are VERY lucky and get the item you want on the first boss kill the two are usually about even... days/weeks.
The problem is that the raiders overvalue the amount of effort that they spend to get their rewards and massively undervalue any effort by the soloer/casual grouper. So a soloer who puts a ton of effort into playing the game gets treated like a lazy bum while a raider who gets carried by others gets treated like a super player.
Riiiiiight nevermind the fact that it takes that solo player far longer to achieve the result and often more risk and a crap load more frustration. But I get what you're saying. You're saying that the group style of play has absolutely nothing to do with greed because all group players use loot systems right and that just because you happen to lead the group your not just grabbing the loot you want first time around so that you don't have to go through another 2 or more hour run to get what you want..but sure everyone else has that kinda time. And we all know loot systems are fair...what? No? Ooooh would that be because most of those systems are ultimately based upon how much time the player has spent doing those 2 to 4 hour raids despite the fact that not all people have that kind of time? Yea, Solo is greedy and Grouping is not. I completely see your point....
Way to misread. +10 e-points.
It's not about greed for loot it's about greed for other peoples loot, and people who don't raid or do party dungeons etc. wanting the same gear level from dungeons and raid encounters... without actually joining a party to raid or crawl a dungeon.
Or, to put it more blunty, it's about solo players wanting what group players get and group players not caring about what solo players can achieve because they actually can do the group stuff.
It's very one sided jealousy. Trust me I don't envy a solo player for not having the time and friends list / guild to raid and do dungeon runs... I actually feel bad that some people WANT to raid and do dungeons but simlpy can't make the time or can't find a good guild etc. I always try and help those players, bring them along for alt runs and fun speed runs etc.
Besides, I've always been a tank I'm one of about the most selfless roles in MMORPG gaming.
The point is, I'd be totally fine with crafting allowing the solo player to get loot of comparable level as dungeon/raid loot because the crafter could pick at it slowly if they chose to, few hours hear of gathering, few hours there etc. etc. where as the raider/dungeon crawler could get equal loot during one of their marathon 4-6 hour play sessions.
The raider/dungeon runner (assuming loot randomness is lucky) could get their piece faster, or take forever, where as the crafter is garaunteed the loot but it will take a while... and also the dungeon/raider has the opportunity to get other loot beyond the one piece they are looking for where as the crafting really only saves for one piece at a time or makes their gear piece by piece over time.
Originally posted by Torik The problem is that the raiders overvalue the amount of effort that they spend to get their rewards and massively undervalue any effort by the soloer/casual grouper. So a soloer who puts a ton of effort into playing the game gets treated like a lazy bum while a raider who gets carried by others gets treated like a super player.
No the problem is that in the current crop of MMOs solo content is piss easy and group stuff actually requires you to know how to play your character.
I'd love to see challenging solo content, but thus far after playing MMOs for 10+ years the general golden rule has been more players = more difficult content.
And it's really hard for a tank and raid leader / guild leader to be carried through a raid... or instance.. may be easier now but "back in the old days" tanking was a real man's sport.
Now, I'm NOT advocating forced grouping ala FFXI and such where you CAN'T solo.
That's a pretty bold accusation... FFXI has changed in the past year and it is now much easier to solo with combat based classes. You don't seriously expect a healer to be able to solo though, do you? It's ludicrous if you do because that's never been the case, except in WoW where every n00b and his mother thinks they're playing an MMO, when all it is is a glorified single player campaign.
Yes, that's right. I went there. You can get from level 1-60 SOLO, I dunno beyond that because I got bored right before Burning Crusade... but I do have the expansion. And what a waste of $50 that was... Sure you can't do any major raids or instances solo, but those are the equivalent of game rooms. You get a group of people together, go into a private little area and fight together.
For those of you who don't believe Soloing is ruining MMOs, it is. It encourages players to keep to themselves. Do you have any clue how many times in WoW I've asked for help for a couple minutes and been refused? Enough to make me quit. Solo play may be "easier" because you're not relying on other people, but its no fun because you lose the whole social aspect of the experience. That's the only reason that I play MMOs, and MMOs that encourage soloing irritate the daylights out of me.
I vehemently disagree. It doesn't encourage players to keep to themselves because there is no real benefit or loss by doing so. Depending on the game you may or may not get more experience by grinding it out but it is by no means a pleasurable experience. The point is I want the FREEDOM to do whatever the hell I want with my character so if I just plain don't feel like dealing with the drama, stress, talking/chatting, etc within a group environment then by god I shouldn't have to. I also should not be obligated to help you achieve a means to an end just for your own personal fulfillment, I don't know you and maybe I don't want to.
Then there is the other side of the issue which is the real reason why most group style gamers dislike soloists, and that is end game content. There are things that I do agree with in regards to the effect that creating a game around a solo style of play would have to address such as what becomes of the healer class? What effect does making a change for a solo player have on group style game play? etc. That being said, I do not agree that a solo player should be barred from end game content because they chose to handle a situation on their own and I most definately believe that a solo player does put in equal if not more effort into achieving an end result than the casual grouper (I can't say that for the group leader who obviously coordinates and leads the group through the event which really deserves a reward in and of itself). But that solo player has to make decisions and take greater risks to save their own rear end in difficult situations and it usually means alot more time and perhaps even deaths, etc to achieve a similar end result.
k that must be why wow and aion failed so badly shure
neither game has failed, obviously, to argue against such things would be absurd and idiotic.
I mean who knows how Aion will do in the west but it is certainly doing well in the East.
But there are a growing number of us who are tired of the same old formula with different graphics and names and tired of this trend towards solo play at the expense of group play.
Now, read that last sentance again and understand the difference.
I am not tired of catering towards solo play, i solo just as much as the next guy, but catering to solo play at the expense of group play is what really gets to me.
Give solo players more, sure, I'm all for it, but don't take away my group play thank you.
Now, I'm NOT advocating forced grouping ala FFXI and such where you CAN'T solo.
That's a pretty bold accusation... FFXI has changed in the past year and it is now much easier to solo with combat based classes. You don't seriously expect a healer to be able to solo though, do you? It's ludicrous if you do because that's never been the case, except in WoW where every n00b and his mother thinks they're playing an MMO, when all it is is a glorified single player campaign.
Yes, that's right. I went there. You can get from level 1-60 SOLO, I dunno beyond that because I got bored right before Burning Crusade... but I do have the expansion. And what a waste of $50 that was... Sure you can't do any major raids or instances solo, but those are the equivalent of game rooms. You get a group of people together, go into a private little area and fight together.
For those of you who don't believe Soloing is ruining MMOs, it is. It encourages players to keep to themselves. Do you have any clue how many times in WoW I've asked for help for a couple minutes and been refused? Enough to make me quit. Solo play may be "easier" because you're not relying on other people, but its no fun because you lose the whole social aspect of the experience. That's the only reason that I play MMOs, and MMOs that encourage soloing irritate the daylights out of me.
I think you need to reassess what you said.
Essentially you said "since there is no forced grouping I had to ask people to help me and they said no".
The problem is not with forced grouping or soloing. The problem is with the people you are asking.
My first thought was "where is your clan"? Seriously. If your clan is not giving you some support then it's not the right clan. In addition, if you are not part of a clan then If find this a bit interesting as you are extolling the virtues of grouping yet you are not taking part in the grande dame of all groups. The guild/clan system.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Riiiiiight nevermind the fact that it takes that solo player far longer to achieve the result and often more risk and a crap load more frustration. But I get what you're saying. You're saying that the group style of play has absolutely nothing to do with greed because all group players use loot systems right and that just because you happen to lead the group your not just grabbing the loot you want first time around so that you don't have to go through another 2 or more hour run to get what you want..but sure everyone else has that kinda time. And we all know loot systems are fair...what? No? Ooooh would that be because most of those systems are ultimately based upon how much time the player has spent doing those 2 to 4 hour raids despite the fact that not all people have that kind of time? Yea, Solo is greedy and Grouping is not. I completely see your point....
Way to misread. +10 e-points.
It's not about greed for loot it's about greed for other peoples loot, and people who don't raid or do party dungeons etc. wanting the same gear level from dungeons and raid encounters... without actually joining a party to raid or crawl a dungeon.
Or, to put it more blunty, it's about solo players wanting what group players get and group players not caring about what solo players can achieve because they actually can do the group stuff.
It's very one sided jealousy. Trust me I don't envy a solo player for not having the time and friends list / guild to raid and do dungeon runs... I actually feel bad that some people WANT to raid and do dungeons but simlpy can't make the time or can't find a good guild etc. I always try and help those players, bring them along for alt runs and fun speed runs etc.
Besides, I've always been a tank I'm one of about the most selfless roles in MMORPG gaming.
The point is, I'd be totally fine with crafting allowing the solo player to get loot of comparable level as dungeon/raid loot because the crafter could pick at it slowly if they chose to, few hours hear of gathering, few hours there etc. etc. where as the raider/dungeon crawler could get equal loot during one of their marathon 4-6 hour play sessions.
The raider/dungeon runner (assuming loot randomness is lucky) could get their piece faster, or take forever, where as the crafter is garaunteed the loot but it will take a while... and also the dungeon/raider has the opportunity to get other loot beyond the one piece they are looking for where as the crafting really only saves for one piece at a time or makes their gear piece by piece over time.
Really?
"I don't see why a game can't offer plenty of both party and solo content...
oh wait, I can see why...
Greed."
Those were your words. Where did I misread exactly on the point of greed?
Really? "I don't see why a game can't offer plenty of both party and solo content... oh wait, I can see why... Greed."
Those were your words. Where did I misread exactly on the point of greed?
Really? *leh sigh*
me - "Greed. Solo players want the same level of gear and loot as the people who party up and do dungeons/raids get. For some reason they think it's fair to get the same gear by themselves that other people had to work together to get..."
So again it's about greed for stuff OTHER PEOPLE HAVE not greed for loot in general. Everyone desires loot for themselves, but wanting what other people have and getting jealous over it?
I think that's why so many solo players detest party and raid guys/gals... they want what they can't have and are jealous the other players do have those things because they don't have the same restriction on time/social network/ etc.
Can I be any more clear?
It's not about "deserving" it or "earning it" or "priviledge" or anything like that... come on now... it's about have and have nots. People always want what they can't have and/or don't have. Hence the whole "I play solo but want equal rewards as groupers" well no, no you don't get equal rewards because you are not doing the same thing.... how hard is that to understand?
I don't care if one is easier or harder then the other.
I get jealous of people in better raid guilds with more hard mode achievements. Why? Clearing the content and getting the best gear isn't enough for me I want bragging rights. I want what I don't have and/or can't have.
You want to know why companines make alot of solo content for the games today and are leaning toward the causal player more so than the hard core, take the game as a second job/life player?
It's simple really. The main purpose of a business is to make as much money/profit as you can. Then look at the percentage of people who are raiders/hard core in comparison to the solo/causal player. Take WOW for example (groan) there is an extremely small percentage of their "bagillion" player base that actually see the "End Game Raid Content".
As long as the goal of the companies making these games is to make money, you will see them geared toward causal, as well as, End Game. It's a fact. Bitching about it, well, it might help you prevent getting ulcers due to bottling up your frustration but not much else.
My advice... Enjoy your game how you like to play and let everyone else enjoy it how they like to play.
Originally posted by Torik The problem is that the raiders overvalue the amount of effort that they spend to get their rewards and massively undervalue any effort by the soloer/casual grouper. So a soloer who puts a ton of effort into playing the game gets treated like a lazy bum while a raider who gets carried by others gets treated like a super player.
No the problem is that in the current crop of MMOs solo content is piss easy and group stuff actually requires you to know how to play your character.
I'd love to see challenging solo content, but thus far after playing MMOs for 10+ years the general golden rule has been more players = more difficult content.
And it's really hard for a tank and raid leader / guild leader to be carried through a raid... or instance.. may be easier now but "back in the old days" tanking was a real man's sport.
You may be correct in "the good old days"....
Group content is as easy as solo content and raid content is just as easy.. in their relative perspectives.
Healers get mods so that they don't have to pay attention. Thus the problem with the zergs of crappy healers is fixed.
Voice chat so people who don't pay attention to "the game" can press the button when told .. while watching tv.
Count downs so people know when to move out of AOE range or joust etc
Many group content/raid games even have addons that allow you to run "raid scripts" for paticular encounters (eq2 for an example).
I'm not really sure why anyone thinks they can claim any content is now "hard" in the context of who it is intended for. The only thing that makes it "hard" is if you play a class that has a hard time solo, run in pugs for group content and no one uses any of the above.. or do pick up raids where no one uses any of the above.
"Back in the day" as you say... people used to actually die/fail and it was common and had big penalties.
I don't have any paticular feeling about solo, group or raid.. if you find people that are fun to play with .. then even I will play with them. However, if the average person I meet makes me wish retro-active abortions were legal then I'll have no interest in group/raid.
I .. DO miss the days when it actually felt like I achieved something by killing a mob or having a successful raid.
Crap Content, Mechanics and threads like this one are ruining todays MMO's. The single biggest issue I've had in almost every MMO I've played in the last 3 years.. is the community.
I'd group more if you removed all the retards from the game... I don't do group because more often than not, one ot two member swill 'have to go" 30 minutes in, DPS hasn't heard the phrase "agro control" and nukes everything out the gate, pet classes have their pets on aggressive so they run rampant indiscriminatly killing everything. It's just far easier to solo.
I would join you in requesting a good grouping game, but not in condemning people that want a good solo MMORPG.
Why do people like ot solo an MMORPG? The answer is irrelevant. The fact is they do, and if there's a market for that developers should cater to it.
I think there's also a market for good grouping games, and hopefully some developers will cater to this market as well.
The only thing I dislike is when solo players insist that the good grouping game I like, will be unchanged if they add programming and game rules that make everything soloable (like requesting scaling dungeons in every MMORPG for example), and that I should be happy with that game if they LET me group in it, and if I'm not happy when the rules change the game to be a solo game, I"m a loot whore, or want to race to the level cap, or want to snub the poor solo players, etc., etc.
k that must be why wow and aion failed so badly shure
neither game has failed, obviously, to argue against such things would be absurd and idiotic.
I mean who knows how Aion will do in the west but it is certainly doing well in the East.
But there are a growing number of us who are tired of the same old formula with different graphics and names and tired of this trend towards solo play at the expense of group play.
Now, read that last sentance again and understand the difference.
I am not tired of catering towards solo play, i solo just as much as the next guy, but catering to solo play at the expense of group play is what really gets to me.
Give solo players more, sure, I'm all for it, but don't take away my group play thank you.
and yet players complained up a storm, long before games like EQ and FFXI added any reasonable amount of solo content, about how hard it was to get a group and having to LFG for hours and once they finally did get a group, it would break up shortly after due to real life issues.
It's ludicrous for you and others like you to pin the blame on soloers and solo content. It's so beyond the realm of fact that I can't believe you can type it with a straight face.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Comments
Back when I started playing MMOs (UO/NWN/Meridian) soloing was the main aspect. So this isn't some sort of new and freakish time in MMO history.
Why do they make it more solo friendly? Because there are more people who like to solo than group (raid?), which gives the people who make the game more subscriptions, which in turn gives them more money. When those that group (raid?) are more prevelant than those that like to solo.... well.... I bet you know where this is going...
Its all about the money, not what you personally would like in an MMO, unfortunetly.
I have a different view on what MMOs should be like than you, but we are in the same boat... once again, unfortunetly.
Well in UO i grouped, in 10six i had freinds you better believe and we defended each other, old muds, daoc, eq1, etc i always had much more fun grouping. Infact in the best mmos grouping was required to level at good rates, and that was the old of mmos GROUP with MANY or MASSIVE amounts of players.
The first of the very friend solo games was proably AO (which you coudl solo in wquite well), but wow rewrote the book many people are trying to immitate and they have failed at every attempt.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Well, let's put it this way, the people I have met and befriended in mmo's are very good people in my opinion. I actually like them. From what I know of them I would meet them in real life. I actually have met a few. But in no way shape or form was I always grouped with them. The cool thing about the clan system is that one can chat when one is in the process of doing something else, regardless of whether I am grouped with them. Or, I can party with them chat but not be in the same place in the world.
That is being social. Has nothign to do with being grouped for the same thing.
I could very much group with people non-stop and still not be very social with them.
People are trying to equate grouping as being social. Grouping can lead to being social but from my experience I don't want to be social wtth most of the people I've grouped with. I do want to group more with the people I'm more social with. But, the nice thing is that if they are doing something different or not on I can solo to my heart's content.
I would agree that games need to encourage grouping. In the early days of lineage 2 you had to get into a clan because there really wasn't a great way to protect yourself if you were only alone. If you dropped gear you needed to trust the people who were going to race across the world to pick it up.
But I didn't get close to people by just grouping. It was a slow process.
Maybe this is why I meet so many people online who claim that their friends screwed them over and took their gear or bad mouthed them, etc.
They are not friends. Friends are made over time. Good friends anyways. And constantly grouping is not what has me make those friends. It's only a very small part of the equation.
My thought is that the grouping "group" can only embrace one idea of community and can't really understand that not everyone creates community in the same way. Some of us have large groups of close friends. Some small groups. Some people only hve 2 or 3 real friends.
People are different. Sorry folks, but that's the truth. We do things differently and we desire different things and we socialize differently.
That is why games have to include both types of content. OR they need to be specific to groups such as final fantasy or the early days of Vanguard.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The demise of grouping is symptomatic of the move of MMO’s to being a solo game; no one is saying it is the only way to be a community. We have lost so much from the early days; grouping just happens to be the one thing all the old games had. So its lack in newer games is more noticeable.
Another silly rant. So what? So go play a new MMORPG. There are plenty of those out there.
I don't see why a game can't offer plenty of both party and solo content...
oh wait, I can see why...
Greed.
Solo players want the same level of gear and loot as the people who party up and do dungeons/raids get.
For some reason they think it's fair to get the same gear by themselves that other people had to work together to get...
That is what is driving this push towards more solo gameplay, honest and simple greed mixed with a bit of jealousy.
Now, I'm NOT advocating forced grouping ala FFXI and such where you CAN'T solo.
I'm just saying give plenty of content for both party and solo play, and STFU about loot disparity and enjoy what you have and are able to get with your playstyle.
That being said, I think crafting should be the solo players way to get high-end gear, just take a lot longer in terms of time investment....
But if you think about time investment in say raiding versus time investment in gathering resources to make an item, unless you are VERY lucky and get the item you want on the first boss kill the two are usually about even... days/weeks.
Your opinion is immaterial.
No mas!
I just can't take another 40+ pages of this....
>bang<
I don't think soloing is ruining mmos. In fact, it might even be attracting more gamers. The problem comes, however, when you try to force different playstyle content into an existing game to try to appease both sides.
A particular Star Wars game (can't remember it's name) tried doing this, and at the beginning, it did seem successful. However, the content for both playstyles became so watered down that the game started falling out of favor afterwards. Developers probably learned from this example, and now games seem to cater towards one side more than the other now. I personally think that the new gen thinking to this problem is that games will start to incorporate solo and groups "together." Now, I won't state my example with the castle raid by a soloist and a group all over again, since I figure most of the people here have seen that post already. But, let's face it, a company will eventually create a game with this concept. I think UO had this concept (not sure, I haven't played the game), and if that idea contributed to the game's success, that's clear evidence that the idea can work.
Edit Part: Sorry, actually that Star Wars game (I now think it SW:KOTOR) was created with the content for both playstyles, so the Star Wars game isn't an example of my first paragraph's idea.
Riiiiiight nevermind the fact that it takes that solo player far longer to achieve the result and often more risk and a crap load more frustration. But I get what you're saying. You're saying that the group style of play has absolutely nothing to do with greed because all group players use loot systems right and that just because you happen to lead the group your not just grabbing the loot you want first time around so that you don't have to go through another 2 or more hour run to get what you want..but sure everyone else has that kinda time. And we all know loot systems are fair...what? No? Ooooh would that be because most of those systems are ultimately based upon how much time the player has spent doing those 2 to 4 hour raids despite the fact that not all people have that kind of time?
Yea, Solo is greedy and Grouping is not. I completely see your point....
That's a pretty bold accusation... FFXI has changed in the past year and it is now much easier to solo with combat based classes. You don't seriously expect a healer to be able to solo though, do you? It's ludicrous if you do because that's never been the case, except in WoW where every n00b and his mother thinks they're playing an MMO, when all it is is a glorified single player campaign.
Yes, that's right. I went there. You can get from level 1-60 SOLO, I dunno beyond that because I got bored right before Burning Crusade... but I do have the expansion. And what a waste of $50 that was... Sure you can't do any major raids or instances solo, but those are the equivalent of game rooms. You get a group of people together, go into a private little area and fight together.
For those of you who don't believe Soloing is ruining MMOs, it is. It encourages players to keep to themselves. Do you have any clue how many times in WoW I've asked for help for a couple minutes and been refused? Enough to make me quit. Solo play may be "easier" because you're not relying on other people, but its no fun because you lose the whole social aspect of the experience. That's the only reason that I play MMOs, and MMOs that encourage soloing irritate the daylights out of me.
Let it be known that I hate WoW with a passion and will defend almost any MMORPG against it.
Current: FFXI (PC/360)
Want: FFXIV, Stargate Worlds, Star Trek Online
Past: AC, AoC, AO, Atlantica Online, CoH/V, DAoC, Dungeon Runners, D&DO, EVE, Everquest I+II, FlyFF, GW (all), Lineage 2, LOTRO, Mabinogi, Maplestory, PSO (DC/Xbox/PC), PSU (PC/360), PlanetSide, RO, Shadowbane, SWG (Pre-NGE), SotNW, TR, UO, Warhammer Online, WoW, WWIIO
The problem is that the raiders overvalue the amount of effort that they spend to get their rewards and massively undervalue any effort by the soloer/casual grouper. So a soloer who puts a ton of effort into playing the game gets treated like a lazy bum while a raider who gets carried by others gets treated like a super player.
Way to misread. +10 e-points.
It's not about greed for loot it's about greed for other peoples loot, and people who don't raid or do party dungeons etc. wanting the same gear level from dungeons and raid encounters... without actually joining a party to raid or crawl a dungeon.
Or, to put it more blunty, it's about solo players wanting what group players get and group players not caring about what solo players can achieve because they actually can do the group stuff.
It's very one sided jealousy. Trust me I don't envy a solo player for not having the time and friends list / guild to raid and do dungeon runs... I actually feel bad that some people WANT to raid and do dungeons but simlpy can't make the time or can't find a good guild etc. I always try and help those players, bring them along for alt runs and fun speed runs etc.
Besides, I've always been a tank I'm one of about the most selfless roles in MMORPG gaming.
The point is, I'd be totally fine with crafting allowing the solo player to get loot of comparable level as dungeon/raid loot because the crafter could pick at it slowly if they chose to, few hours hear of gathering, few hours there etc. etc. where as the raider/dungeon crawler could get equal loot during one of their marathon 4-6 hour play sessions.
The raider/dungeon runner (assuming loot randomness is lucky) could get their piece faster, or take forever, where as the crafter is garaunteed the loot but it will take a while... and also the dungeon/raider has the opportunity to get other loot beyond the one piece they are looking for where as the crafting really only saves for one piece at a time or makes their gear piece by piece over time.
Your opinion is immaterial.
No the problem is that in the current crop of MMOs solo content is piss easy and group stuff actually requires you to know how to play your character.
I'd love to see challenging solo content, but thus far after playing MMOs for 10+ years the general golden rule has been more players = more difficult content.
And it's really hard for a tank and raid leader / guild leader to be carried through a raid... or instance.. may be easier now but "back in the old days" tanking was a real man's sport.
Your opinion is immaterial.
k that must be why wow and aion failed so badly shure
That's a pretty bold accusation... FFXI has changed in the past year and it is now much easier to solo with combat based classes. You don't seriously expect a healer to be able to solo though, do you? It's ludicrous if you do because that's never been the case, except in WoW where every n00b and his mother thinks they're playing an MMO, when all it is is a glorified single player campaign.
Yes, that's right. I went there. You can get from level 1-60 SOLO, I dunno beyond that because I got bored right before Burning Crusade... but I do have the expansion. And what a waste of $50 that was... Sure you can't do any major raids or instances solo, but those are the equivalent of game rooms. You get a group of people together, go into a private little area and fight together.
For those of you who don't believe Soloing is ruining MMOs, it is. It encourages players to keep to themselves. Do you have any clue how many times in WoW I've asked for help for a couple minutes and been refused? Enough to make me quit. Solo play may be "easier" because you're not relying on other people, but its no fun because you lose the whole social aspect of the experience. That's the only reason that I play MMOs, and MMOs that encourage soloing irritate the daylights out of me.
I vehemently disagree. It doesn't encourage players to keep to themselves because there is no real benefit or loss by doing so. Depending on the game you may or may not get more experience by grinding it out but it is by no means a pleasurable experience. The point is I want the FREEDOM to do whatever the hell I want with my character so if I just plain don't feel like dealing with the drama, stress, talking/chatting, etc within a group environment then by god I shouldn't have to. I also should not be obligated to help you achieve a means to an end just for your own personal fulfillment, I don't know you and maybe I don't want to.
Then there is the other side of the issue which is the real reason why most group style gamers dislike soloists, and that is end game content. There are things that I do agree with in regards to the effect that creating a game around a solo style of play would have to address such as what becomes of the healer class? What effect does making a change for a solo player have on group style game play? etc. That being said, I do not agree that a solo player should be barred from end game content because they chose to handle a situation on their own and I most definately believe that a solo player does put in equal if not more effort into achieving an end result than the casual grouper (I can't say that for the group leader who obviously coordinates and leads the group through the event which really deserves a reward in and of itself). But that solo player has to make decisions and take greater risks to save their own rear end in difficult situations and it usually means alot more time and perhaps even deaths, etc to achieve a similar end result.
neither game has failed, obviously, to argue against such things would be absurd and idiotic.
I mean who knows how Aion will do in the west but it is certainly doing well in the East.
But there are a growing number of us who are tired of the same old formula with different graphics and names and tired of this trend towards solo play at the expense of group play.
Now, read that last sentance again and understand the difference.
I am not tired of catering towards solo play, i solo just as much as the next guy, but catering to solo play at the expense of group play is what really gets to me.
Give solo players more, sure, I'm all for it, but don't take away my group play thank you.
Your opinion is immaterial.
That's a pretty bold accusation... FFXI has changed in the past year and it is now much easier to solo with combat based classes. You don't seriously expect a healer to be able to solo though, do you? It's ludicrous if you do because that's never been the case, except in WoW where every n00b and his mother thinks they're playing an MMO, when all it is is a glorified single player campaign.
Yes, that's right. I went there. You can get from level 1-60 SOLO, I dunno beyond that because I got bored right before Burning Crusade... but I do have the expansion. And what a waste of $50 that was... Sure you can't do any major raids or instances solo, but those are the equivalent of game rooms. You get a group of people together, go into a private little area and fight together.
For those of you who don't believe Soloing is ruining MMOs, it is. It encourages players to keep to themselves. Do you have any clue how many times in WoW I've asked for help for a couple minutes and been refused? Enough to make me quit. Solo play may be "easier" because you're not relying on other people, but its no fun because you lose the whole social aspect of the experience. That's the only reason that I play MMOs, and MMOs that encourage soloing irritate the daylights out of me.
I think you need to reassess what you said.
Essentially you said "since there is no forced grouping I had to ask people to help me and they said no".
The problem is not with forced grouping or soloing. The problem is with the people you are asking.
My first thought was "where is your clan"? Seriously. If your clan is not giving you some support then it's not the right clan. In addition, if you are not part of a clan then If find this a bit interesting as you are extolling the virtues of grouping yet you are not taking part in the grande dame of all groups. The guild/clan system.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Way to misread. +10 e-points.
It's not about greed for loot it's about greed for other peoples loot, and people who don't raid or do party dungeons etc. wanting the same gear level from dungeons and raid encounters... without actually joining a party to raid or crawl a dungeon.
Or, to put it more blunty, it's about solo players wanting what group players get and group players not caring about what solo players can achieve because they actually can do the group stuff.
It's very one sided jealousy. Trust me I don't envy a solo player for not having the time and friends list / guild to raid and do dungeon runs... I actually feel bad that some people WANT to raid and do dungeons but simlpy can't make the time or can't find a good guild etc. I always try and help those players, bring them along for alt runs and fun speed runs etc.
Besides, I've always been a tank I'm one of about the most selfless roles in MMORPG gaming.
The point is, I'd be totally fine with crafting allowing the solo player to get loot of comparable level as dungeon/raid loot because the crafter could pick at it slowly if they chose to, few hours hear of gathering, few hours there etc. etc. where as the raider/dungeon crawler could get equal loot during one of their marathon 4-6 hour play sessions.
The raider/dungeon runner (assuming loot randomness is lucky) could get their piece faster, or take forever, where as the crafter is garaunteed the loot but it will take a while... and also the dungeon/raider has the opportunity to get other loot beyond the one piece they are looking for where as the crafting really only saves for one piece at a time or makes their gear piece by piece over time.
Really?
"I don't see why a game can't offer plenty of both party and solo content...
oh wait, I can see why...
Greed."
Those were your words. Where did I misread exactly on the point of greed?
In all honesty I believe levels and classes contribute to the decline of party play and the rise of solo play if:
A. the class structure required for effective grouping is too rigid (i.e. you need 1 tank 1 heal 3 dps or you fail)
B. there is no way to de-level or mentor etc. lower level players
Your opinion is immaterial.
Really? *leh sigh*
me - "Greed. Solo players want the same level of gear and loot as the people who party up and do dungeons/raids get. For some reason they think it's fair to get the same gear by themselves that other people had to work together to get..."
So again it's about greed for stuff OTHER PEOPLE HAVE not greed for loot in general. Everyone desires loot for themselves, but wanting what other people have and getting jealous over it?
I think that's why so many solo players detest party and raid guys/gals... they want what they can't have and are jealous the other players do have those things because they don't have the same restriction on time/social network/ etc.
Can I be any more clear?
It's not about "deserving" it or "earning it" or "priviledge" or anything like that... come on now... it's about have and have nots. People always want what they can't have and/or don't have. Hence the whole "I play solo but want equal rewards as groupers" well no, no you don't get equal rewards because you are not doing the same thing.... how hard is that to understand?
I don't care if one is easier or harder then the other.
I get jealous of people in better raid guilds with more hard mode achievements. Why? Clearing the content and getting the best gear isn't enough for me I want bragging rights. I want what I don't have and/or can't have.
Your opinion is immaterial.
You want to know why companines make alot of solo content for the games today and are leaning toward the causal player more so than the hard core, take the game as a second job/life player?
It's simple really. The main purpose of a business is to make as much money/profit as you can. Then look at the percentage of people who are raiders/hard core in comparison to the solo/causal player. Take WOW for example (groan) there is an extremely small percentage of their "bagillion" player base that actually see the "End Game Raid Content".
As long as the goal of the companies making these games is to make money, you will see them geared toward causal, as well as, End Game. It's a fact. Bitching about it, well, it might help you prevent getting ulcers due to bottling up your frustration but not much else.
My advice... Enjoy your game how you like to play and let everyone else enjoy it how they like to play.
No the problem is that in the current crop of MMOs solo content is piss easy and group stuff actually requires you to know how to play your character.
I'd love to see challenging solo content, but thus far after playing MMOs for 10+ years the general golden rule has been more players = more difficult content.
And it's really hard for a tank and raid leader / guild leader to be carried through a raid... or instance.. may be easier now but "back in the old days" tanking was a real man's sport.
You may be correct in "the good old days"....
Group content is as easy as solo content and raid content is just as easy.. in their relative perspectives.
Healers get mods so that they don't have to pay attention. Thus the problem with the zergs of crappy healers is fixed.
Voice chat so people who don't pay attention to "the game" can press the button when told .. while watching tv.
Count downs so people know when to move out of AOE range or joust etc
Many group content/raid games even have addons that allow you to run "raid scripts" for paticular encounters (eq2 for an example).
I'm not really sure why anyone thinks they can claim any content is now "hard" in the context of who it is intended for. The only thing that makes it "hard" is if you play a class that has a hard time solo, run in pugs for group content and no one uses any of the above.. or do pick up raids where no one uses any of the above.
"Back in the day" as you say... people used to actually die/fail and it was common and had big penalties.
I don't have any paticular feeling about solo, group or raid.. if you find people that are fun to play with .. then even I will play with them. However, if the average person I meet makes me wish retro-active abortions were legal then I'll have no interest in group/raid.
I .. DO miss the days when it actually felt like I achieved something by killing a mob or having a successful raid.
Crap Content, Mechanics and threads like this one are ruining todays MMO's. The single biggest issue I've had in almost every MMO I've played in the last 3 years.. is the community.
I'd group more if you removed all the retards from the game... I don't do group because more often than not, one ot two member swill 'have to go" 30 minutes in, DPS hasn't heard the phrase "agro control" and nukes everything out the gate, pet classes have their pets on aggressive so they run rampant indiscriminatly killing everything. It's just far easier to solo.
I would join you in requesting a good grouping game, but not in condemning people that want a good solo MMORPG.
Why do people like ot solo an MMORPG? The answer is irrelevant. The fact is they do, and if there's a market for that developers should cater to it.
I think there's also a market for good grouping games, and hopefully some developers will cater to this market as well.
The only thing I dislike is when solo players insist that the good grouping game I like, will be unchanged if they add programming and game rules that make everything soloable (like requesting scaling dungeons in every MMORPG for example), and that I should be happy with that game if they LET me group in it, and if I'm not happy when the rules change the game to be a solo game, I"m a loot whore, or want to race to the level cap, or want to snub the poor solo players, etc., etc.
I concur with the OP as well. I will send you a tell, because I don't feel like getting flammed.
neither game has failed, obviously, to argue against such things would be absurd and idiotic.
I mean who knows how Aion will do in the west but it is certainly doing well in the East.
But there are a growing number of us who are tired of the same old formula with different graphics and names and tired of this trend towards solo play at the expense of group play.
Now, read that last sentance again and understand the difference.
I am not tired of catering towards solo play, i solo just as much as the next guy, but catering to solo play at the expense of group play is what really gets to me.
Give solo players more, sure, I'm all for it, but don't take away my group play thank you.
and yet players complained up a storm, long before games like EQ and FFXI added any reasonable amount of solo content, about how hard it was to get a group and having to LFG for hours and once they finally did get a group, it would break up shortly after due to real life issues.
It's ludicrous for you and others like you to pin the blame on soloers and solo content. It's so beyond the realm of fact that I can't believe you can type it with a straight face.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal