You know what's really ruining MMOs today? Intolerance towards other people's play style. People need to take a step back and realize that MMOs are games and the whole point of playing them is to have fun. These heated debates about solo and group are silly. We're all gamers, playing these games to have fun. We may have different ideas what fun is but in the long run, what you find fun is not better nor more important than what other people find fun. Enjoy the game, play it and don't worry about how other people play it.
Agreed.
So why is it so important that solo players have as much content and get just as good of gear as group players if "what you find fun is not better nor mor important than what other people find fun... play it and don't worry about how other people play it" ??
I've already explained this once.
I don't know what is funnier. That fact that you took the time to write this [silly] statement or the fact that you actually believe it. Why should solo players expect as much content and as good of gear (since gear is now the measure stick of endgame content) as groupers.
The answer to your stupid question is because we (solo, grouper, raider) are all paying the same price for the same service but are getting significantly different amounts of content.
Soloer don't want more we simple want our fair share.
I don't know what is funnier. That fact that you took the time to write this idiotic statement or the fact that you actually believe it. Why should solo players expect as much content and as good of gear (since gear is now the measure stick of endgame content) as groupers. You really don't realize how stupid of a statement that is do you? That is really sad. Your parent must of/are spoiling you rotten if you think the world should revolve around you entirely. The answer to your stupid question is because we (solo, grouper, raider) are all paying the same price for the same service but are getting significantly different amounts of content. While you are flipping burgers tonight try to give someone half a burger and still charge them the full price and see what happens. Soloer don't want more we simple want our fair share.
Wow. Just... wow...
I've always advocated for fair share for solo versus small party versus large group.
To me, that means in terms of loot quality solo<small party<large group.
Doesn't mean anything about the amount of content, just the rewards for it.
That being said, come up with solo and small party content that is up to par in terms of challenge compared to raid encounters and I'll be much more willing to accept that it was fair.
Until that time, however, I have been playing MMORPGS over 10 years and I have never seen a situation where the more difficult content required more players instead of less...
You know what's really ruining MMOs today? Intolerance towards other people's play style. People need to take a step back and realize that MMOs are games and the whole point of playing them is to have fun. These heated debates about solo and group are silly. We're all gamers, playing these games to have fun. We may have different ideas what fun is but in the long run, what you find fun is not better nor more important than what other people find fun. Enjoy the game, play it and don't worry about how other people play it.
omg you are awesome.
So why is it so important that solo players have as much content and get just as good of gear as group players if "what you find fun is not better nor mor important than what other people find fun... play it and don't worry about how other people play it" ??
I've already explained this once.
I'll go out on a limb here, and say soloers want gear just as good as everyone else, because (as an example), if I as a soloer, meet you (as a raider?) with much better gear, in a pvp situation, and you hand me my butt, not because you were better skilled, but had better gear, well, where does that put me? Other than holding my butt? How long do you think i will continue to pay a monthly fee for that?
As for why a soloer would want as much content, how long do you think i am going to pay a monthly fee after i run out of content?
In a nutshell, getting killed in PvP because i cant aquire the gear thats neccasary to compete, or standing around because i have run out of content, is no longer fun, and thats why i play $15 a month.
Again, what's the point of something being an MMO if it's designed to appease a solo crowd? Why pay 15$ a month for servers that thousands of players can log on to, if you dont ever want to interract with them?
why does this have to be iterated over and over again.
It's bordering on comical.
solo players DO interact with people.
People who solo and who ARE paying 15 or so dollars per month are doing it becasue they find value in the experience.
The only issue I have are when solo players come in and demand that a game change for them. I say that AS a solo player. Of coruse, if I'm drawn to a game I would prefer soloable content. But I have no problem with content being group only. As an example, I play LOTRO but have done only a few of the book quests as most of them are group oriented. I would love it if they offered a solo option with different but decent rewards but I don't go crying that the game is not completely soloable.
If someone does something and they do it cheerfully then I would bet, in anything in life, it's safe to assume that they are finding value in it.
And YES, solo players interact with others. Just not in a way that some players demand of them.
Very well said, Sovrath!
well thank you!
Having said that, I do offer the consolation that I can empathize with people who love to group.
Truth is that the devs haven't exactl gotten it right. Having to group for 1 quest or 2 does not a group make. what happens is that people group for that quest and disband after it is over. This doesn't seem to me what group oriented players are looking for. they are looking for a reason to start a group when they log in (or "shortly" [lol] thereafter) and carry that group through their evening's play time.
The thing is, it doesn't have to be hard. I can easily imagine a game that accomodates group and solo play. I think the devs for the most part aren't game players but more artists and programmers. I know that is a rather bold statement but I sometimes wonder if they really play their own games with an eye on "is this fun".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
You know what's really ruining MMOs today? Intolerance towards other people's play style. People need to take a step back and realize that MMOs are games and the whole point of playing them is to have fun. These heated debates about solo and group are silly. We're all gamers, playing these games to have fun. We may have different ideas what fun is but in the long run, what you find fun is not better nor more important than what other people find fun. Enjoy the game, play it and don't worry about how other people play it.
omg you are awesome.
So why is it so important that solo players have as much content and get just as good of gear as group players if "what you find fun is not better nor mor important than what other people find fun... play it and don't worry about how other people play it" ??
I've already explained this once.
I'll go out on a limb here, and say soloers want gear just as good as everyone else, because (as an example), if I as a soloer, meet you (as a raider?) with much better gear, in a pvp situation, and you hand me my butt, not because you were better skilled, but had better gear, well, where does that put me? Other than holding my butt? How long do you think i will continue to pay a monthly fee for that?
As for why a soloer would want as much content, how long do you think i am going to pay a monthly fee after i run out of content?
In a nutshell, getting killed in PvP because i cant aquire the gear thats neccasary to compete, or standing around because i have run out of content, is no longer fun, and thats why i play $15 a month.
This also strikes home rather well. It's as if the gear needs to have attributes that help the player with whatever they do but must be equal when it comes to pvp. I don't see this as being a difficult thing to accomplish.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I'll go out on a limb here, and say soloers want gear just as good as everyone else, because (as an example), if I as a soloer, meet you (as a raider?) with much better gear, in a pvp situation, and you hand me my butt, not because you were better skilled, but had better gear, well, where does that put me? Other than holding my butt? How long do you think i will continue to pay a monthly fee for that? In a nutshell, getting killed in PvP because i cant aquire the gear thats neccasary to compete, or standing around because i have run out of content, is no longer fun, and thats why i play $15 a month.
They fixed this a long time ago in WoW with Resilience... where have you been?
If your MMO of choice hasn't followed suit I'm sorry.
In terms of creating content.. yeah.. MMO content never last forever...
I cleared 75% of the raid content in Ulduar in maybe 20 hours of playtime and it took me 10 days of play time (240 hours) to get my character to max level (estimate)
just making up numbers but in general, very correct.. so.. yeah.. sorry?
You know what's really ruining MMOs today? Intolerance towards other people's play style. People need to take a step back and realize that MMOs are games and the whole point of playing them is to have fun. These heated debates about solo and group are silly. We're all gamers, playing these games to have fun. We may have different ideas what fun is but in the long run, what you find fun is not better nor more important than what other people find fun. Enjoy the game, play it and don't worry about how other people play it.
omg you are awesome.
So why is it so important that solo players have as much content and get just as good of gear as group players if "what you find fun is not better nor mor important than what other people find fun... play it and don't worry about how other people play it" ??
I've already explained this once.
I'll go out on a limb here, and say soloers want gear just as good as everyone else, because (as an example), if I as a soloer, meet you (as a raider?) with much better gear, in a pvp situation, and you hand me my butt, not because you were better skilled, but had better gear, well, where does that put me? Other than holding my butt? How long do you think i will continue to pay a monthly fee for that?
As for why a soloer would want as much content, how long do you think i am going to pay a monthly fee after i run out of content?
In a nutshell, getting killed in PvP because i cant aquire the gear thats neccasary to compete, or standing around because i have run out of content, is no longer fun, and thats why i play $15 a month.
For this reason games need both pvp and pve equipment, ie pvp equipment a soloer can get. Or the outcome of the pvp doesn't need to be tied so much to the equipment. That's where skill based games come in handy. Sure your equipment does affect the outcome but it isn't the deciding factor if you are a very good player who can get the drop on a good player with great equipment.
For the life of me i can't understand why group content holds so much presence in mmorpg considering they are very much individual base driven. You don't do quests for anyone else. Xp it only for your class to level. Gear stats are only directed towards your classes. Enchantments are left up to what you want to use.
Thank god Bioware will breaking this habit it seems. It's not so much people that enjoy soloing more then grouping hate grouping. They hate not having any control over how they can progress on cutting edge progression any other way. You are stuck with someone no matter what and in logic regarding mmorpgs structure it's kind of repugnant.
Imho group content should always be in the back set with many options on when, how and why a player should group along with solo content being equally based on many aspects.
If you cry over something someone has or what you have and you don't want someone to have the same item for whatever reason. Well you're fucking sad pal.
EQ was extremely unforgiving and 'hard'. It pretty much required a group to do anything and because of this there were always groups to be found and the community all knew each other because of the interdependance.
Now, thanks to WoW, the Bud Light of MMO's, developers feel like that have to cater to the solo crowd which ends up being the path of least resistance. Why bother getting a group together when it's just as fast/faster to solo my way through. Also, because of this linear series of quests it would be impossible for anyone to join me as they would have to be in the exact same spot of the infinite linear quest series.
In EQ, people knew how to play in a group and how to play their class. You had to or you'd be dead constantly or be ostrasized by the community and have a very hard time finding a group. The inverse of this is that people that did play their class well or were just fun to group with had very little trouble finding groups.
EQ was rewarding, the accomplishments actually meant something. The levels didn't just fly by so to get the best exp you had to live on the edge, usually deep in a dungeon where the mobs were closer together for faster pulling and typically the exp and drops were better. The edge was a line between getting overwhelmed with mobs and killing at a furios pace where you didn't die as corpse runs were hard and time consuming, but someone screwing up could mean death or at least others compensating to recover.
Think of other games that combined a strong death penalty, leaving all your items on your corpse, mobs that run when they get low and pass agro, blind that actually makes your screen go black, mobs that gate back to their spawn point and bring trains, mobs in outdoor zones twice the level of the normal mobs that roam the zone beating down the lower level groups. These are just a few examples.
Should there be some soloing in games, yes there should be, should soloing be the main aspect of mmorpgs like it is today? No
With a group you PLOW through content even more faster.. and its MMO. Not one of those letters sand for GROUPING.. or SOLO. There will ALWAYS be people that LOVE to solo and same for group. So you try to make a MMO for BOTH. You want BOTH.. BOTH=more money. For a FACT.. SOLO mmos do VERY good. You dont like it.. then GROUP always.. what ever YOU want.
I'll go out on a limb here, and say soloers want gear just as good as everyone else, because (as an example), if I as a soloer, meet you (as a raider?) with much better gear, in a pvp situation, and you hand me my butt, not because you were better skilled, but had better gear, well, where does that put me? Other than holding my butt? How long do you think i will continue to pay a monthly fee for that? In a nutshell, getting killed in PvP because i cant aquire the gear thats neccasary to compete, or standing around because i have run out of content, is no longer fun, and thats why i play $15 a month.
They fixed this a long time ago in WoW with Resilience... where have you been?
If your MMO of choice hasn't followed suit I'm sorry.
In terms of creating content.. yeah.. MMO content never last forever...
I cleared 75% of the raid content in Ulduar in maybe 20 hours of playtime and it took me 10 days of play time (240 hours) to get my character to max level (estimate)
just making up numbers but in general, very correct.. so.. yeah.. sorry?
I don't play WOW... sorry?
You asked a question, I gave you two answers as to why soloers, or should we say people who dont raid, want equal gear and content.
Ok, so the PvP aspect in WoW has been fixed (theres an oxymoron in there somewhere). But if your producing more and more content for the groupers (raiders), than those who solo (don't raid), I don't see soloers subs lasting very long, do you?
So once again, it all boils down to the developers wanting more subscriptions , because there are more people who like to solo, than group, or I'm pretty certain this conversation would be reversed.
First problem is that you are playing EQ and complaining.
They make the games Easier to play solo because it brings in more casual players. People who like to jump on for a few quests and then get on with their lives. I am not saying I like it this way, but I do understand it. It's about Subs, not about hardcore gamers.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Marcus-[/i] I'll go out on a limb here, and say soloers want gear just as good as everyone else, because (as an example), if I as a soloer, meet you (as a raider?) with much better gear, in a pvp situation, and you hand me my butt, not because you were better skilled, but had better gear, well, where does that put me? Other than holding my butt? How long do you think i will continue to pay a monthly fee for that? As for why a soloer would want as much content, how long do you think i am going to pay a monthly fee after i run out of content? In a nutshell, getting killed in PvP because i cant aquire the gear thats neccasary to compete, or standing around because i have run out of content, is no longer fun, and thats why i play $15 a month.[/quote]
The gear is there for you. Why can you not go earn it like the person who owned you did? Again, the gear is there for you too. Nobody stops you from earning that gear. Are you special?
[quote][i]Originally posted by Marcus-[/i] I'll go out on a limb here, and say soloers want gear just as good as everyone else, because (as an example), if I as a soloer, meet you (as a raider?) with much better gear, in a pvp situation, and you hand me my butt, not because you were better skilled, but had better gear, well, where does that put me? Other than holding my butt? How long do you think i will continue to pay a monthly fee for that? As for why a soloer would want as much content, how long do you think i am going to pay a monthly fee after i run out of content? In a nutshell, getting killed in PvP because i cant aquire the gear thats neccasary to compete, or standing around because i have run out of content, is no longer fun, and thats why i play $15 a month.[/quote]
The gear is there for you. Why can you not go earn it like the person who owned you did? Again, the gear is there for you too. Nobody stops you from earning that gear. Are you special?
Special? No.
But I don't see myself paying $15 a month for something i don't enjoy doing.
Apparently there are a lot of people who play MMOs who feel the same way. So many in fact, game design is changing.
First problem is that you are playing EQ and complaining. They make the games Easier to play solo because it brings in more casual players. People who like to jump on for a few quests and then get on with their lives. I am not saying I like it this way, but I do understand it. It's about Subs, not about hardcore gamers.
In short fuck EQ and Wow. Eq was shit then and it's shit now. Wow was fun and now it's run by balance crazed devs.
What mmorpg Devs need to do is evolve the system. They have to also take note why Wow did so well. They attracted Fpsers and Rtsers away from their main gen of game. Those players love solo content being at the frontlines and group content sit in the back with many ways to interact with it. There is no way in hell hardcore EQ elitist fueled Wow and anyone that came from SWG and so on. When wow hit Fps and Rts games dried up like a bone rivier.
I have been a fan of solo play ever since I spent several years on FFXI.
Don't get me wrong I spent my best MMO years playing that game and it had the most enjoyable community I have ever found because you had to keep a good reputation to get groups(can't be rude to people like most of the forums go-ers on here are to each other)... if you can't find a group you just have nothing to do really. You could go for weeks without seeing a single invite depending on your role, and when I say you couldn't do 'anything' without a group I mean it literally.
After playing several other MMOs that allowed effecient solo play, letting me get into action right when I signed on without having to wait around, I became a supporter of solo play. I just don't really like sitting around for hours on end trying to get groups together or waiting on invites. Ultimately all-group games with not as much solo play will hurt business wise in this generation because the majority of people do not want to wait around for hours, and that is what it comes down to in a game is how can the company make money and keep people interested.
Contrary to what oldschool players say, this genre is not dying it has just started developing.
....How to fix this problem. People who solo dont have enough time to look for a group right? You can fix this by making cross server ques and having each roll filled within minutes so it doesnt take hours to find a group. Now those who have only a hour or two to do a dungeon can! However I think developers should add a good amount of solo content, just so u can personally experience it without morons with u.... Edit: But seriously if u just want solo content go play a single player game...
Wrong, crazies like me that play about 16 hours a day can find and get groups. The fact is it takes in some cases 3 to 4 flipping hours before you get the show on the road. I can just wonder what casuals go through. Like i said before. It's about controlling group content. Now having the game control you to group.
I have been a fan of solo play ever since I spent several years on FFXI.
Don't get me wrong I spent my best MMO years playing that game and it had the most enjoyable community I have ever found because you had to keep a good reputation to get groups(can't be rude to people like most of the forums go-ers on here are to each other)... if you can't find a group you just have nothing to do really. You could go for weeks without seeing a single invite depending on your role, and when I say you couldn't do 'anything' without a group I mean it literally.
After playing several other MMOs that allowed effecient solo play, letting me get into action right when I signed on without having to wait around, I became a supporter of solo play. I just don't really like sitting around for hours on end trying to get groups together or waiting on invites. Ultimately all-group games with not as much solo play will hurt business wise in this generation because the majority of people do not want to wait around for hours, and that is what it comes down to in a game is how can the company make money and keep people interested.
Contrary to what oldschool players say, this genre is not dying it has just started developing.
I've been playing MMOs since '95, I hardly think this genre' is dying, far from it actually.
As i said earlier, most, if not all content back then was solo friendly, and I personally thought the community was 10x what it is these days.
Back in Vanilla WOW, I wanted to group because it was more fun playing with friends. Even if you're not actually grouped and just questing along side eachother, it was more fun. Being on a PvP server also made is safer, since it was fun chasing any soloers out of the area. I wanted to see every dungeon, because I just wanted to see the coolest areas of the game and experience everything. I wanted some of those unique, powerful weapons I saw people carrying. I wanted to be better than the next guy and having better gear made my character more powerful. Knowing how to group made me a better player. Because I had decent gear and played my Shaman very well, I got group invites all the time. Had a nice guild. Had a nice alliance with a few other nice guilds. Plenty of friends. Plenty of people to play with whenever I wanted. And when I wanted to play alone, I could. Of course constant tells to "come on over to dungeon X" didn't make me want to solo all that much;) But at least I had the option.
Of course other people ONLY cared about getting to max level. They were shocked that they didn't have any friends. Shocked when they didn't get invited to raids. They were shocked that they got whooped in PvP, because all they had were scraps from the AH. Shocked that the end-game wasn't so much fun. So the ability to solo doesn't ruin MMOs. PEOPLE who ONLY want to SOLO eventually ruin MMOs for THEMSELVES, if they don't understand that some things should be designed around a group to give the game depth. The two play styles can cooexist fine and do in certain games. Its the people who WANT IT ALL that ruin MMOs.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Marcus-[/i] I'll go out on a limb here, and say soloers want gear just as good as everyone else, because (as an example), if I as a soloer, meet you (as a raider?) with much better gear, in a pvp situation, and you hand me my butt, not because you were better skilled, but had better gear, well, where does that put me? Other than holding my butt? How long do you think i will continue to pay a monthly fee for that? As for why a soloer would want as much content, how long do you think i am going to pay a monthly fee after i run out of content? In a nutshell, getting killed in PvP because i cant aquire the gear thats neccasary to compete, or standing around because i have run out of content, is no longer fun, and thats why i play $15 a month.[/quote]
The gear is there for you. Why can you not go earn it like the person who owned you did? Again, the gear is there for you too. Nobody stops you from earning that gear. Are you special?
Simply because some of us either don't like to raid with 25-40+ other people for hours on end or because we don't have the means to do it. Some people have families, kids or erratic schedules. Those people pay the same $15 but are treated like second class citizens in most MMOs.
The majority of gamers in MMOs are casual but have access to sub par gear and the least content. Why? Because current MMOs are still following the old EQ style and WoW in particular was designed by ex-EQ raiders. Who share the same greedy, I'm better than you, outlook.
However, you're forgetting one most important aspect of what MMOs are. They are a form of entertainment not a job.
Back in Vanilla WOW, I wanted to group because it was more fun playing with friends. Even if you're not actually grouped and just questing along side eachother, it was more fun. Being on a PvP server also made is safer, since it was fun chasing any soloers out of the area. I wanted to see every dungeon, because I just wanted to see the coolest areas of the game and experience everything. I wanted some of those unique, powerful weapons I saw people carrying. I wanted to be better than the next guy and having better gear made my character more powerful. Knowing how to group made me a better player. Because I had decent gear and played my Shaman very well, I got group invites all the time. Had a nice guild. Had a nice alliance with a few other nice guilds. Plenty of friends. Plenty of people to play with whenever I wanted. And when I wanted to play alone, I could. Of course constant tells to "come on over to dungeon X" didn't make me want to solo all that much;) But at least I had the option. Of course other people ONLY cared about getting to max level. They were shocked that they didn't have any friends. Shocked when they didn't get invited to raids. They were shocked that they got whooped in PvP, because all they had were scraps from the AH. Shocked that the end-game wasn't so much fun. So the ability to solo doesn't ruin MMOs. PEOPLE who ONLY want to SOLO eventually ruin MMOs for THEMSELVES, if they don't understand that some things should be designed around a group to give the game depth. The two play styles can cooexist fine and do in certain games. Its the people who WANT IT ALL that ruin MMOs.
Wow forces you to group. The game is group or die so this arguments not valid other then your personal experience and enjoyment when grouping.
People that enjoy soloing also like grouping and everything right here is just wrong. The power in wow is left in the players hands. If you didn't like someone for whatever reason you could if other people liked you enough stop that person's progression in a heart beat.
Wow is probably the most abuse of power we have seen since Bush got into office. From loot, grouping and even trying to get HWL or GM and now a reasonable arena rating in some cases.
Back in Vanilla WOW, I wanted to group because it was more fun playing with friends. Even if you're not actually grouped and just questing along side eachother, it was more fun. Being on a PvP server also made is safer, since it was fun chasing any soloers out of the area. I wanted to see every dungeon, because I just wanted to see the coolest areas of the game and experience everything. I wanted some of those unique, powerful weapons I saw people carrying. I wanted to be better than the next guy and having better gear made my character more powerful. Knowing how to group made me a better player. Because I had decent gear and played my Shaman very well, I got group invites all the time. Had a nice guild. Had a nice alliance with a few other nice guilds. Plenty of friends. Plenty of people to play with whenever I wanted. And when I wanted to play alone, I could. Of course constant tells to "come on over to dungeon X" didn't make me want to solo all that much;) But at least I had the option. Of course other people ONLY cared about getting to max level. They were shocked that they didn't have any friends. Shocked when they didn't get invited to raids. They were shocked that they got whooped in PvP, because all they had were scraps from the AH. Shocked that the end-game wasn't so much fun. So the ability to solo doesn't ruin MMOs. PEOPLE who ONLY want to SOLO eventually ruin MMOs for THEMSELVES, if they don't understand that some things should be designed around a group to give the game depth. The two play styles can cooexist fine and do in certain games. Its the people who WANT IT ALL that ruin MMOs.
Wow forces you to group. The game is group or die so this arguments not valid other then your personal experience and enjoyment when grouping.
People that enjoy soloing also like grouping and everything right here is just wrong. The power in wow is left in the players hands. If you didn't like someone for whatever reason you could if other people liked you enough stop that person's progression in a heart beat.
Wow is probably the most abuse of power we have seen since Bush got into office. From loot, grouping and even trying to get HWL or GM and now a reasonable arena rating in some cases.
WoW dos not force you to group at all... WoW is one of the most solo friendly games on the market by far... other then raiding you never need to group to advance in WoW.
Any game that uses the quest grind model is a solo friendly game.
Back in Vanilla WOW, I wanted to group because it was more fun playing with friends. Even if you're not actually grouped and just questing along side eachother, it was more fun. Being on a PvP server also made is safer, since it was fun chasing any soloers out of the area. I wanted to see every dungeon, because I just wanted to see the coolest areas of the game and experience everything. I wanted some of those unique, powerful weapons I saw people carrying. I wanted to be better than the next guy and having better gear made my character more powerful. Knowing how to group made me a better player. Because I had decent gear and played my Shaman very well, I got group invites all the time. Had a nice guild. Had a nice alliance with a few other nice guilds. Plenty of friends. Plenty of people to play with whenever I wanted. And when I wanted to play alone, I could. Of course constant tells to "come on over to dungeon X" didn't make me want to solo all that much;) But at least I had the option. Of course other people ONLY cared about getting to max level. They were shocked that they didn't have any friends. Shocked when they didn't get invited to raids. They were shocked that they got whooped in PvP, because all they had were scraps from the AH. Shocked that the end-game wasn't so much fun. So the ability to solo doesn't ruin MMOs. PEOPLE who ONLY want to SOLO eventually ruin MMOs for THEMSELVES, if they don't understand that some things should be designed around a group to give the game depth. The two play styles can cooexist fine and do in certain games. Its the people who WANT IT ALL that ruin MMOs.
Wow forces you to group. The game is group or die so this arguments not valid other then your personal experience and enjoyment when grouping.
People that enjoy soloing also like grouping and everything right here is just wrong. The power in wow is left in the players hands. If you didn't like someone for whatever reason you could if other people liked you enough stop that person's progression in a heart beat.
Wow is probably the most abuse of power we have seen since Bush got into office. From loot, grouping and even trying to get HWL or GM and now a reasonable arena rating in some cases.
WoW dos not force you to group at all... WoW is one of the most solo friendly games on the market by far... other then raiding you never need to group to advance in WoW.
Any game that uses the quest grind model is a solo friendly game.
I'm sorry the only thing i found to be able to progresses on cutting edge progression in Wow to it's fullest while soloing was Rep,Leveling and Battlegrounds. Professions to this day still get road blocked by placing scrolls and crafting mats that are top grade in raid 25 man max instances. True wow is easier to level and rep grind then most mmorpgs but it's far from a soloable game as you can get.
Also try out Requiem, GW is just as easy to level in.
Josher also said that people that enjoy solo content are ruining mmorpgs. That is far from the truth. Look around, if anything we are supporting for more epic lore content while playing the mmo and everyone wants that. Proof is Bioware and TOR. Everything is voice based quests. By the looks of it, with an epic storyline.
The problem is that MMOs don't encourage grouping. They make soloing more efficient these days than grouping and then later on force grouping. Both are bad things and both can be solved in the same way. Encourage grouping by making it more fun, efficient and rewarding than solo'ing and people will group. It's that simple; people will do what they find most entertaining and rewarding to do. In DaoC they put in an XP boost for grouping. The more people there were in a group the more XP everyone gained from every activity they did. In CoX they made missions much more rewarding the more people there were in a group that entered it. And once people get used to grouping because it's rewarding the more they will also group later on with people they have gotten to know. Never force grouping, just make it a good idea to do it. Then everyone should be happy. Also remember to give rewards to people who help each other to level and do stuff, like if you power level friends. This is a good social activity that again reward and encourage grouping. WaR was the worst case of all the MMOs I have played. First they made it impossible for people with different play times to groupo with each other because if there were any lvl difference then people would get no XP what so ever in a group both for high and low lvls. Secondly there were such a great reduction in XP from grouping that people that grouped were quickly passed by soloers in lvls. This were incredible stupid of mythic and drove off many daoc players who were used to having the social activity of the groups being rewarded by the game system instead of it being a penalty.
Funny, as I first started reading this post, I was thinking 'that's exactly why I play Warhammer', but then I read further along and noticed that you obviously don't agree (based on what you said in your last paragraph).
I can't help but wonder if we are/were playing the same game. Granted Warhammer has it's share of issues, but I don't see how you can claim that it is the worst MMO from a grouping standpoint. If you truly feel that way, then you obviously need to try some more MMOs. First, your comment about those that soloed, passing groupers is absolute crap. Either that or you are comparing apples to oranges. Several friends and I leveled together and the friend that chose to solo the most was constantly falling behind. Furthermore, the PQs are a fantastic way to encourage grouping and meeting new people. I've met several cool players, that way. Also, other games have taken note and have already started to copy the PQ format. Most importantly, the fastest way to lvl in Warhammer is to do constant SCs in which the lower lvl chars appear to get more xp in comparative terms than the higher lvl chars playing within the same tier.
I've stuck with Warhammer through all of it's problems and criticism for the simple reason that I would rather play with others than solo and the whole premise of War seems to encourage it. I mean to me that is the point of an M-M-O in the first place. I've also found that Warhammer has a lot fewer asshats than the plethora that now plague WoW and have ruined that game for me. Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've found Warhammer to have the best community of any MMO I've played this side of LOTRO.
Lastly, aside from commenting on the post above I wanted to add that I believe that there's something really wrong with those of you anti-group people out there and you should seek immediate help. Either you're a big fat chicken#$%! Care Bear or you spent too much time being shoved into that locker in high school and got so used to being alone that you pee yourself from nervousness when you are around others. Worst of all, your also the most likely to go postal. So do us all a favor, strap on a diaper and try grouping and maybe it'll save some lives!
Comments
Agreed.
So why is it so important that solo players have as much content and get just as good of gear as group players if "what you find fun is not better nor mor important than what other people find fun... play it and don't worry about how other people play it" ??
I've already explained this once.
I don't know what is funnier. That fact that you took the time to write this [silly] statement or the fact that you actually believe it. Why should solo players expect as much content and as good of gear (since gear is now the measure stick of endgame content) as groupers.
The answer to your stupid question is because we (solo, grouper, raider) are all paying the same price for the same service but are getting significantly different amounts of content.
Soloer don't want more we simple want our fair share.
[Mod Edit]
Wow. Just... wow...
I've always advocated for fair share for solo versus small party versus large group.
To me, that means in terms of loot quality solo<small party<large group.
Doesn't mean anything about the amount of content, just the rewards for it.
That being said, come up with solo and small party content that is up to par in terms of challenge compared to raid encounters and I'll be much more willing to accept that it was fair.
Until that time, however, I have been playing MMORPGS over 10 years and I have never seen a situation where the more difficult content required more players instead of less...
Your opinion is immaterial.
omg
you are awesome.
So why is it so important that solo players have as much content and get just as good of gear as group players if "what you find fun is not better nor mor important than what other people find fun... play it and don't worry about how other people play it" ??
I've already explained this once.
I'll go out on a limb here, and say soloers want gear just as good as everyone else, because (as an example), if I as a soloer, meet you (as a raider?) with much better gear, in a pvp situation, and you hand me my butt, not because you were better skilled, but had better gear, well, where does that put me? Other than holding my butt? How long do you think i will continue to pay a monthly fee for that?
As for why a soloer would want as much content, how long do you think i am going to pay a monthly fee after i run out of content?
In a nutshell, getting killed in PvP because i cant aquire the gear thats neccasary to compete, or standing around because i have run out of content, is no longer fun, and thats why i play $15 a month.
why does this have to be iterated over and over again.
It's bordering on comical.
solo players DO interact with people.
People who solo and who ARE paying 15 or so dollars per month are doing it becasue they find value in the experience.
The only issue I have are when solo players come in and demand that a game change for them. I say that AS a solo player. Of coruse, if I'm drawn to a game I would prefer soloable content. But I have no problem with content being group only. As an example, I play LOTRO but have done only a few of the book quests as most of them are group oriented. I would love it if they offered a solo option with different but decent rewards but I don't go crying that the game is not completely soloable.
If someone does something and they do it cheerfully then I would bet, in anything in life, it's safe to assume that they are finding value in it.
And YES, solo players interact with others. Just not in a way that some players demand of them.
Very well said, Sovrath!
well thank you!
Having said that, I do offer the consolation that I can empathize with people who love to group.
Truth is that the devs haven't exactl gotten it right. Having to group for 1 quest or 2 does not a group make. what happens is that people group for that quest and disband after it is over. This doesn't seem to me what group oriented players are looking for. they are looking for a reason to start a group when they log in (or "shortly" [lol] thereafter) and carry that group through their evening's play time.
The thing is, it doesn't have to be hard. I can easily imagine a game that accomodates group and solo play. I think the devs for the most part aren't game players but more artists and programmers. I know that is a rather bold statement but I sometimes wonder if they really play their own games with an eye on "is this fun".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
omg
you are awesome.
So why is it so important that solo players have as much content and get just as good of gear as group players if "what you find fun is not better nor mor important than what other people find fun... play it and don't worry about how other people play it" ??
I've already explained this once.
I'll go out on a limb here, and say soloers want gear just as good as everyone else, because (as an example), if I as a soloer, meet you (as a raider?) with much better gear, in a pvp situation, and you hand me my butt, not because you were better skilled, but had better gear, well, where does that put me? Other than holding my butt? How long do you think i will continue to pay a monthly fee for that?
As for why a soloer would want as much content, how long do you think i am going to pay a monthly fee after i run out of content?
In a nutshell, getting killed in PvP because i cant aquire the gear thats neccasary to compete, or standing around because i have run out of content, is no longer fun, and thats why i play $15 a month.
This also strikes home rather well. It's as if the gear needs to have attributes that help the player with whatever they do but must be equal when it comes to pvp. I don't see this as being a difficult thing to accomplish.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
They fixed this a long time ago in WoW with Resilience... where have you been?
If your MMO of choice hasn't followed suit I'm sorry.
In terms of creating content.. yeah.. MMO content never last forever...
I cleared 75% of the raid content in Ulduar in maybe 20 hours of playtime and it took me 10 days of play time (240 hours) to get my character to max level (estimate)
just making up numbers but in general, very correct.. so.. yeah.. sorry?
Your opinion is immaterial.
omg
you are awesome.
So why is it so important that solo players have as much content and get just as good of gear as group players if "what you find fun is not better nor mor important than what other people find fun... play it and don't worry about how other people play it" ??
I've already explained this once.
I'll go out on a limb here, and say soloers want gear just as good as everyone else, because (as an example), if I as a soloer, meet you (as a raider?) with much better gear, in a pvp situation, and you hand me my butt, not because you were better skilled, but had better gear, well, where does that put me? Other than holding my butt? How long do you think i will continue to pay a monthly fee for that?
As for why a soloer would want as much content, how long do you think i am going to pay a monthly fee after i run out of content?
In a nutshell, getting killed in PvP because i cant aquire the gear thats neccasary to compete, or standing around because i have run out of content, is no longer fun, and thats why i play $15 a month.
For this reason games need both pvp and pve equipment, ie pvp equipment a soloer can get. Or the outcome of the pvp doesn't need to be tied so much to the equipment. That's where skill based games come in handy. Sure your equipment does affect the outcome but it isn't the deciding factor if you are a very good player who can get the drop on a good player with great equipment.
Skill has to play into the games for that reason.
For the life of me i can't understand why group content holds so much presence in mmorpg considering they are very much individual base driven. You don't do quests for anyone else. Xp it only for your class to level. Gear stats are only directed towards your classes. Enchantments are left up to what you want to use.
Thank god Bioware will breaking this habit it seems. It's not so much people that enjoy soloing more then grouping hate grouping. They hate not having any control over how they can progress on cutting edge progression any other way. You are stuck with someone no matter what and in logic regarding mmorpgs structure it's kind of repugnant.
Imho group content should always be in the back set with many options on when, how and why a player should group along with solo content being equally based on many aspects.
If you cry over something someone has or what you have and you don't want someone to have the same item for whatever reason. Well you're fucking sad pal.
EQ was extremely unforgiving and 'hard'. It pretty much required a group to do anything and because of this there were always groups to be found and the community all knew each other because of the interdependance.
Now, thanks to WoW, the Bud Light of MMO's, developers feel like that have to cater to the solo crowd which ends up being the path of least resistance. Why bother getting a group together when it's just as fast/faster to solo my way through. Also, because of this linear series of quests it would be impossible for anyone to join me as they would have to be in the exact same spot of the infinite linear quest series.
In EQ, people knew how to play in a group and how to play their class. You had to or you'd be dead constantly or be ostrasized by the community and have a very hard time finding a group. The inverse of this is that people that did play their class well or were just fun to group with had very little trouble finding groups.
EQ was rewarding, the accomplishments actually meant something. The levels didn't just fly by so to get the best exp you had to live on the edge, usually deep in a dungeon where the mobs were closer together for faster pulling and typically the exp and drops were better. The edge was a line between getting overwhelmed with mobs and killing at a furios pace where you didn't die as corpse runs were hard and time consuming, but someone screwing up could mean death or at least others compensating to recover.
Think of other games that combined a strong death penalty, leaving all your items on your corpse, mobs that run when they get low and pass agro, blind that actually makes your screen go black, mobs that gate back to their spawn point and bring trains, mobs in outdoor zones twice the level of the normal mobs that roam the zone beating down the lower level groups. These are just a few examples.
With a group you PLOW through content even more faster.. and its MMO. Not one of those letters sand for GROUPING.. or SOLO. There will ALWAYS be people that LOVE to solo and same for group. So you try to make a MMO for BOTH. You want BOTH.. BOTH=more money. For a FACT.. SOLO mmos do VERY good. You dont like it.. then GROUP always.. what ever YOU want.
They fixed this a long time ago in WoW with Resilience... where have you been?
If your MMO of choice hasn't followed suit I'm sorry.
In terms of creating content.. yeah.. MMO content never last forever...
I cleared 75% of the raid content in Ulduar in maybe 20 hours of playtime and it took me 10 days of play time (240 hours) to get my character to max level (estimate)
just making up numbers but in general, very correct.. so.. yeah.. sorry?
I don't play WOW... sorry?
You asked a question, I gave you two answers as to why soloers, or should we say people who dont raid, want equal gear and content.
Ok, so the PvP aspect in WoW has been fixed (theres an oxymoron in there somewhere). But if your producing more and more content for the groupers (raiders), than those who solo (don't raid), I don't see soloers subs lasting very long, do you?
So once again, it all boils down to the developers wanting more subscriptions , because there are more people who like to solo, than group, or I'm pretty certain this conversation would be reversed.
/shrug
First problem is that you are playing EQ and complaining.
They make the games Easier to play solo because it brings in more casual players. People who like to jump on for a few quests and then get on with their lives. I am not saying I like it this way, but I do understand it. It's about Subs, not about hardcore gamers.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Marcus-[/i] I'll go out on a limb here, and say soloers want gear just as good as everyone else, because (as an example), if I as a soloer, meet you (as a raider?) with much better gear, in a pvp situation, and you hand me my butt, not because you were better skilled, but had better gear, well, where does that put me? Other than holding my butt? How long do you think i will continue to pay a monthly fee for that? As for why a soloer would want as much content, how long do you think i am going to pay a monthly fee after i run out of content? In a nutshell, getting killed in PvP because i cant aquire the gear thats neccasary to compete, or standing around because i have run out of content, is no longer fun, and thats why i play $15 a month.[/quote]
The gear is there for you. Why can you not go earn it like the person who owned you did? Again, the gear is there for you too. Nobody stops you from earning that gear. Are you special?
Special? No.
But I don't see myself paying $15 a month for something i don't enjoy doing.
Apparently there are a lot of people who play MMOs who feel the same way. So many in fact, game design is changing.
In short fuck EQ and Wow. Eq was shit then and it's shit now. Wow was fun and now it's run by balance crazed devs.
What mmorpg Devs need to do is evolve the system. They have to also take note why Wow did so well. They attracted Fpsers and Rtsers away from their main gen of game. Those players love solo content being at the frontlines and group content sit in the back with many ways to interact with it. There is no way in hell hardcore EQ elitist fueled Wow and anyone that came from SWG and so on. When wow hit Fps and Rts games dried up like a bone rivier.
....How to fix this problem.
People who solo dont have enough time to look for a group right?
You can fix this by making cross server ques and having each roll filled within minutes so it doesnt take hours to find a group.
Now those who have only a hour or two to do a dungeon can!
However I think developers should add a good amount of solo content, just so u can personally experience it without morons with u....
Edit: But seriously if u just want solo content go play a single player game...
Uhh... what?
I have been a fan of solo play ever since I spent several years on FFXI.
Don't get me wrong I spent my best MMO years playing that game and it had the most enjoyable community I have ever found because you had to keep a good reputation to get groups(can't be rude to people like most of the forums go-ers on here are to each other)... if you can't find a group you just have nothing to do really. You could go for weeks without seeing a single invite depending on your role, and when I say you couldn't do 'anything' without a group I mean it literally.
After playing several other MMOs that allowed effecient solo play, letting me get into action right when I signed on without having to wait around, I became a supporter of solo play. I just don't really like sitting around for hours on end trying to get groups together or waiting on invites. Ultimately all-group games with not as much solo play will hurt business wise in this generation because the majority of people do not want to wait around for hours, and that is what it comes down to in a game is how can the company make money and keep people interested.
Contrary to what oldschool players say, this genre is not dying it has just started developing.
Wrong, crazies like me that play about 16 hours a day can find and get groups. The fact is it takes in some cases 3 to 4 flipping hours before you get the show on the road. I can just wonder what casuals go through. Like i said before. It's about controlling group content. Now having the game control you to group.
I've been playing MMOs since '95, I hardly think this genre' is dying, far from it actually.
As i said earlier, most, if not all content back then was solo friendly, and I personally thought the community was 10x what it is these days.
Back in Vanilla WOW, I wanted to group because it was more fun playing with friends. Even if you're not actually grouped and just questing along side eachother, it was more fun. Being on a PvP server also made is safer, since it was fun chasing any soloers out of the area. I wanted to see every dungeon, because I just wanted to see the coolest areas of the game and experience everything. I wanted some of those unique, powerful weapons I saw people carrying. I wanted to be better than the next guy and having better gear made my character more powerful. Knowing how to group made me a better player. Because I had decent gear and played my Shaman very well, I got group invites all the time. Had a nice guild. Had a nice alliance with a few other nice guilds. Plenty of friends. Plenty of people to play with whenever I wanted. And when I wanted to play alone, I could. Of course constant tells to "come on over to dungeon X" didn't make me want to solo all that much;) But at least I had the option.
Of course other people ONLY cared about getting to max level. They were shocked that they didn't have any friends. Shocked when they didn't get invited to raids. They were shocked that they got whooped in PvP, because all they had were scraps from the AH. Shocked that the end-game wasn't so much fun. So the ability to solo doesn't ruin MMOs. PEOPLE who ONLY want to SOLO eventually ruin MMOs for THEMSELVES, if they don't understand that some things should be designed around a group to give the game depth. The two play styles can cooexist fine and do in certain games. Its the people who WANT IT ALL that ruin MMOs.
Simply because some of us either don't like to raid with 25-40+ other people for hours on end or because we don't have the means to do it. Some people have families, kids or erratic schedules. Those people pay the same $15 but are treated like second class citizens in most MMOs.
The majority of gamers in MMOs are casual but have access to sub par gear and the least content. Why? Because current MMOs are still following the old EQ style and WoW in particular was designed by ex-EQ raiders. Who share the same greedy, I'm better than you, outlook.
However, you're forgetting one most important aspect of what MMOs are. They are a form of entertainment not a job.
Wow forces you to group. The game is group or die so this arguments not valid other then your personal experience and enjoyment when grouping.
People that enjoy soloing also like grouping and everything right here is just wrong. The power in wow is left in the players hands. If you didn't like someone for whatever reason you could if other people liked you enough stop that person's progression in a heart beat.
Wow is probably the most abuse of power we have seen since Bush got into office. From loot, grouping and even trying to get HWL or GM and now a reasonable arena rating in some cases.
Wow forces you to group. The game is group or die so this arguments not valid other then your personal experience and enjoyment when grouping.
People that enjoy soloing also like grouping and everything right here is just wrong. The power in wow is left in the players hands. If you didn't like someone for whatever reason you could if other people liked you enough stop that person's progression in a heart beat.
Wow is probably the most abuse of power we have seen since Bush got into office. From loot, grouping and even trying to get HWL or GM and now a reasonable arena rating in some cases.
WoW dos not force you to group at all... WoW is one of the most solo friendly games on the market by far... other then raiding you never need to group to advance in WoW.
Any game that uses the quest grind model is a solo friendly game.
Sooner or Later
Wow forces you to group. The game is group or die so this arguments not valid other then your personal experience and enjoyment when grouping.
People that enjoy soloing also like grouping and everything right here is just wrong. The power in wow is left in the players hands. If you didn't like someone for whatever reason you could if other people liked you enough stop that person's progression in a heart beat.
Wow is probably the most abuse of power we have seen since Bush got into office. From loot, grouping and even trying to get HWL or GM and now a reasonable arena rating in some cases.
WoW dos not force you to group at all... WoW is one of the most solo friendly games on the market by far... other then raiding you never need to group to advance in WoW.
Any game that uses the quest grind model is a solo friendly game.
I'm sorry the only thing i found to be able to progresses on cutting edge progression in Wow to it's fullest while soloing was Rep,Leveling and Battlegrounds. Professions to this day still get road blocked by placing scrolls and crafting mats that are top grade in raid 25 man max instances. True wow is easier to level and rep grind then most mmorpgs but it's far from a soloable game as you can get.
Also try out Requiem, GW is just as easy to level in.
Josher also said that people that enjoy solo content are ruining mmorpgs. That is far from the truth. Look around, if anything we are supporting for more epic lore content while playing the mmo and everyone wants that. Proof is Bioware and TOR. Everything is voice based quests. By the looks of it, with an epic storyline.
Now who doesn't want that ?
Funny, as I first started reading this post, I was thinking 'that's exactly why I play Warhammer', but then I read further along and noticed that you obviously don't agree (based on what you said in your last paragraph).
I can't help but wonder if we are/were playing the same game. Granted Warhammer has it's share of issues, but I don't see how you can claim that it is the worst MMO from a grouping standpoint. If you truly feel that way, then you obviously need to try some more MMOs. First, your comment about those that soloed, passing groupers is absolute crap. Either that or you are comparing apples to oranges. Several friends and I leveled together and the friend that chose to solo the most was constantly falling behind. Furthermore, the PQs are a fantastic way to encourage grouping and meeting new people. I've met several cool players, that way. Also, other games have taken note and have already started to copy the PQ format. Most importantly, the fastest way to lvl in Warhammer is to do constant SCs in which the lower lvl chars appear to get more xp in comparative terms than the higher lvl chars playing within the same tier.
I've stuck with Warhammer through all of it's problems and criticism for the simple reason that I would rather play with others than solo and the whole premise of War seems to encourage it. I mean to me that is the point of an M-M-O in the first place. I've also found that Warhammer has a lot fewer asshats than the plethora that now plague WoW and have ruined that game for me. Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've found Warhammer to have the best community of any MMO I've played this side of LOTRO.
Lastly, aside from commenting on the post above I wanted to add that I believe that there's something really wrong with those of you anti-group people out there and you should seek immediate help. Either you're a big fat chicken#$%! Care Bear or you spent too much time being shoved into that locker in high school and got so used to being alone that you pee yourself from nervousness when you are around others. Worst of all, your also the most likely to go postal. So do us all a favor, strap on a diaper and try grouping and maybe it'll save some lives!
Your fail comment, failed.