Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
FF XIV should not become more casual friendly and should instead keep the feel of FF XI
RamenThief7
Member Posts: 362
First off, I must state that I really haven't played FF XI (only tried it out for an hour with a friend who owned the game), but I know well enough of the mechanics to know that I would've been hooked on the game, plus that hour of gaming has made me really wish that I could afford the game and go to college (or more likely a trade school, I'm thinking about picking up a trade). Plus, loved the white mage role, and hoping there will be a ninja class inside FF XIV.
Now, you're all wondering "why shouldn't FF XIV introduce casual aspects? Wouldn't it attract more customers?"
Perhaps it would attract more casuals. But this could end up badly as well. Think of it this way. The majority of FF XI gamers are used to the hardcore aspects, as well as the brutal death punishments (you lose a ton of experience on all of your jobs). But FF XI still managed to get around 500,000 steady subscriptions on this aspect alone. So, Square Enix believe it can make more money by making FF XI's successor, FF XIV, more casual friendly, right?
Wrong. More likely it will simply alienate the original fanbase. Then, there won't be enough of the original fanbase because they will stick to FF XI instead, and there may not be enough casuals to fill the void.
Simply put, Square Enix should not fix anything that wasn't broken to begin with. Here is a list of possible casual ideas that might be implemented that will have serious impact on FF XIV compared to FF XI:
1. Less brutal death punishments: FF XI was a haven known for brutal death punishments, that is what the majority was based on. Weaken that aspect, and you weaken any chances of the original fanbase staying around for FF XIV and instead sticking with FF XI.
2. More solo aspects: Now, I'm not saying that all solo aspects are casual based, but look at the mechanics of FF XI. You could technically solo...for the first few levels. Then, if you dared solo, you would die quickly, therefore you grouped with others like the group-based mechanics of the game required you to do so. It would seem like casual solo would be a good idea, but if FF XIV follows many mechanics of FF XI, more soloing will kill the group aspect from FF XI. Once again, the original fanbase grew up on group aspect in FF XI. Make FF XIV more solo friendly, and you'll make the original fanbase more likely to ignore FF XIV and stick with FF XI.
Now, this is only a possible list. It's possible that FF XIV could very well end up being the first prime game ever to have hardcore and casual aspects, and the game succeeds. On the other hand, this situation could end up like EQ2, that tried to put in casual aspects and the game died as a result (among other contributers, but casual aspects was a prime killer).
I expect many casual gamers here to be angry, but please stick to intelligent thoughts and avoid flaming. Perhaps you may even convince me that FF XIV would not die if casual aspects were inserted, but you will not achieve that goal if you flame on this thread.
Comments
You should post this on the FFXI or FFXIV board.
I strongly agree in harsh death penalties, but that is still a minor reason for playing FFXI for about 3 years. Anyone can make a game dificult. FFXI is a beautifully crafted game, with gorgeous missions that I'm sorry you missed.
If you play FFXI now it is much more casual friendly.
The key for Square Enix is to keep the priority on the groupers and I believe they will do this. Having group content at all levels, and game mechanics such as skill chains and a job system also help. I have a lot of respect for Square and their FF series has always emphasised teamwork. I cannot believe they will abandon this as a backbone to their new game.
I do agree that if they were to focus primarily on solo play they would alienate their key audience.
Harsh death penalties mean people will want to group more and will learn their roles better. More casual will mean a lot less grouping and ultimately less anything that involves other players, even talking.
What you like about the game may well disappear if that happens so it is a tricky balance as always.
Westfall quests leading upto The Dead Mines was one of the best grouping experiences I've ever had when WoW launched. The Dead Mines was like nothing I've ever seen for a low level instance it felt more detailed than high level instances in other mmorpgs. With SOE they normally just put some mobs in a room and call it epic content lol. Problem is the game becomes top heavy and these zones become dead and frigging you wish'd they merged all the servers together so theres alwas lots of people.
I really loved the grouping in SWG aswel like Avatar when we launched into space (about 8 of us) in a multi person ship. Two people at the main controls and some people on the turrets while others just looked outta the window. It felt like a Star Wars experience and then we landed on Avatar and blew that dungeon up and launched back up in the ship and landed on Kash. Where there was a Bounty Hunter waiting for one of the Jedi and he did a runner into the nearest instance on Kash. I also had fun on Mustafar with my friends all on the Skiffs and doing the content together. Only problem is I finished that expansion in 3 days and realised how much SOE charged me for so little content.... was still fun though and then the NGE came and ruined it. I was just starting to like the CU and get used to it and then they gave me something I could never like.
Planetside is also a game where grouping was amazing. I just remember being in giant battles with my friend and I drove the Mag and he was the gunner. We'd then hide somewhere and repair the tank and go back out. We lasted for hours in that one tank and it was just such an amazing experience killing so many of the enemy and not dying ourselves. Now with all the cert changes everyone has AA and AV and AI on one character and it's just become a big mess.
Everquest 2 is another game I had an amazing experience grouping in beta because that game was packed. I loved the Common Lands and doing all the grouping quests there and then the armour quests. However the game launched and it died and you couldn't find anyone to group with anymore like you could in beta. It only kept getting worse and worse as the population quickly died due to WoW and the EU servers really died when WoW launched in 2005. Another game that suffers due to a low population and all they have to do is clone the zones over and over and just have the one server.
My experience is it has no effect because people in WoW when you wipe get angry and leave the group even though theres not much of penalty. People in EQ2 got angry and left too because they didn't want XP debt and it didn't make people play better but worse and they argued and left the group. You'd then spend the rest of your time trying to find a group cause the population is dead.
SWG had a great Death Penalty because it was social and you went to see a doctor and an entertainer and made new friends.
I agree, i'd enjoy FFXIV more so if it kept the difficulty level FFXI had, and just introduced a new setting/world/story and updated graphics.
I think delevel in itself is pretty harsh and serve the purpose. I am not sure how much people will learn their roles better in FFXI, just can't teach people who doesn't want to learn in that game. Most newer FFXI players blame their equipment before anything else, but in reality understanding how the game system work is the best way to become better.
Met plenty of people with 3+ jobs at 75 but does not know what a modifier is when it comes to weapon skill, and these are usually damage dealers that swings and miss most of the time. Others completely ignore elemental affinity all together and simply cast spells and blame the resisted spells as a pure luck factor.
I do agree with you that FFXIV should not be dumbed down, but maybe it is time for SE to consider how to make the game less time consuming to play.
I agree that FF shouldnt dump down too much, but some players left also because they are tired of looking for a certain class for hours each time. This they should address. And of course keep the difficult chain execution part, but maybe make the death pen less hush...
But the problem with mmo companies now is they wont accept a mmo that can only command 500k subs. its millions they are aiming. If i lost the original 500k but gain 2mil, why not?
So don't be surprise if its more solo friendly compare to last time...
RIP Orc Choppa
I believe FFXIV should be more casual friendly - but first let me explain by what I mean by 'casual friendly'
Essentially, I need to be able to engage in some interesting and substantial content when playing by my lonesome or with just another friend. That doesn't mean I need to level up quickly or be able to attain the greatest gear. But I should be able to log in, play for an hour or so and log out and feel like I accomplished something.
Currently, the really only solo content in FFXI that exists is some mindless grinding, kill tasks, crafting, and farming.
Granted, if you are a casual player that has enjoyed the concept of FFXI but just didn't have the time - now is the time to try it again. New features make soloing more rewarding than it ever was in the past (even if it is mindless solo grinding sometimes).
A lot of the missions are fun(the game's primary form of quests) because they have a lot of story and in game cinematics that come with them. However, most of these require highly coordinated groups. It would be nice to see these types missions designed for not only full groups but small groups and the solo player.
There is no reason for Square Enix to make another Final Fantasy XI. I think it makes sense if they make Final Fantasy XIV a more casual friendly experience.
What would be the point for Square Enix to migrate their FFXI player base to FFXIV? It would make more sense if they create two different type of games, a more casual friendly and a hardcore game to suit different audience.
The thing is this. FF XIV is the successor of FF XI. FF XI was a group-based game with few solo aspects. FF XI had a steady fanbase of about 500,000. If FF XIV started including more solo aspects, then that 500,000 fanbase from FF XI will be alienated, because FF XI was a group-based game. Square Enix will most likely try to get the fanbase from FFXI to play FF XIV, but that will not happen if the fanbase from FF XI hates the game and Square Enix for introducing new elements that makes FF XIV completely different. Basically, what would happen here would be exactly like what happened to EQ2, that tried to implment more solo aspects than the original game and EQ2 tanked as a result (among other reasons, but more solo aspects is one of them).
What I think could happen is that for the PS3, solo story missions could introduced eventually on the PSN (not sure how this will happen for PC). But they have to be for fun, not something that you could level up on or get special gear from (again, the fanbase are group gamers, they would hate to see solo-only missions that you could advance on). For example: You are a knight that was locked up in a dungeon, but the prison guard foolishly stuck his arm in too far and you killed him. Stealing the keys as well as the guard's sword, you must escape the prison and rescue as many other prisoners as you can.
Now, your part on smaller groups is interesting. I personally have a soft spot for small groups of three, where the roles are limited and the group must especially work together with what they have to live. But, at the very least, they should be a group. No new solo aspects in the base mechanics of the game.
There's a problem with that thought. Whenever you create a sequel, you usually want to retain the original fanbase. Since FF XIV is the second online only mmo game in the series, it's pretty much the sequel to FF XI. Now, that fanbase was heavily group-based and hardcore. If you alienated them with more casual aspects, then they will ignore FF XIV. That will not be good, because unless FF XIV manages to draw a completely new fanbase (which on its own standards would be impressive), it will not go down well, it will go down like EQ2 did, which was a more "casual" game than EQ was, a game that was hardcore group-based with a few solo elements. Notice the simularities of the possible situation with FF XI and FF XIV?
Yawwwwnnnnnn.......
By the way, of course the developers probably won't listen to this one thread. There's hundreds, perhaps thousands of them. Usually developers listen to multitudes of threads to get the idea of what the people think. I will continuously check on the FF XIV homepage to see when a forum will be created, so as to try to pitch this idea to others.
By the way, I said no flaming on this thread.
<Mod Edit>
Even if the game (XIV) was exactly like XI you would still have a split player base. Your point fails to take into account that one of the key reasons a player stays with an MMO (how fun or addictive they find it aside) is the community and friends they are a part of, not the death penalty. You don't alienate players by making something more accesible, which is what has been stated is the goal.
I played XI since NA launch hardcore for 18 months before I quit (due to real life responsibilities, I was going to University). That being said I welcome Square-Enix taking what they learnt in XI and applying it to XIV, whether this means more story missions, more viable solo options and a less steep learning curve I am all for it. Making the game easier to get into, with the high production values I have come to expect from the company is all I need to keep a close eye on how this game developes. Bottom line is, a simpler learning curve and more accesible gameplay experience will do nothing but good for the sequel.
Yawwwwnnnnnn.......
By the way, of course the developers probably won't listen to this one thread. There's hundreds, perhaps thousands of them. Usually developers listen to multitudes of threads to get the idea of what the people think. I will continuously check on the FF XIV homepage to see when a forum will be created, so as to try to pitch this idea to others.
By the way, I said no flaming on this thread.
How is this flaming? You jumped to a conclusion without having any facts. I played FFXI was a decent concept and game but I only got to mid 30's before I couldn't take the hours of lfg anymore. People are so eager to blame the effect instead of actually trying to fix the cause. The only game I have seen to make any strives to keep games group based but still realize that forced grouping is a stupid idea is Guildwars and I guess now DDO.
<Mod Edit> <----- Really this community has gotten so childish that we can't even be sarcastic with each other without people crying and over zealous mods stomping in with their delete authority?
Not if they are trying to appeal to both the former and current FFXI players. There have to have been several million people that played FFXI and liked it over it's 7+ year history (you can't maintain 500k subs that long with the same 500k people). If they are trying to draw the old crowd back in as well as the current crowd (yeah, I know they said they wouldn't abandon FFXI) then they could very well do better than trying to appeal to a group of people that never played FFXI. I know almost all of my friends who never played FFXI have no interest in FFXIV because all they think is "asian grinder".
Ramen - I don't believe I was clear or lucid enough in my explaination.
Ironically, I believe we are on the same page. I think FFXIV should maintain the group centric aspects of FFXI - that is what has made it so reslient compared to other MMOs in retaining players. Grouping promotes comraderie and entertaining social benefits that have degraded with many contemporary MMOs.
However, I don't believe designing a game such that the solo player can engage in some meaningful content for an hour or less has to destroy the more rewarding grouping activites. Take most single player games, especially adventure and rpgs. I can boot the game up and usually play for 30 minutes and stop and feel like I accomplished something. No, I may not have played long enough to kill a dragon and get 5 levels and raid a mini dungeon - but maybe I played long enough to help fend off skeletons from invading a portion of a city and find information about a blacksmith that may be able to upgrade my weapon.
As a solo player, I don't expect to gain the best rewards and actually assume that if I solo mostly, I'll be slightly behind equipment-wise than players of similar level that group more. It should be understood that as a level 20, I may actually have equipment that I could have gotten at level 12 had I grouped with some people. But because I soloed, I didn't experience that content until level 16. The gear is still beneficial but not nearly as good as the gear I could get if I had a group to go tackle the deeper areas of a dungeon.
Hmmm....
1. Death penalty is important. Although it is minor compared to the other important game mechanics (group play, quests that are fun to do, etc.), the death penalty was a contributing factor to FF XI. Harsher death penalties on a group-based game meant you either learn your role and find a good group or die miserably for sucking. It helped made people more serious about the group-aspects of the game. A less harsh death punishment will put a dent in this idea.
2. You will alienate the FF XI fanbase by including more viable solo options and more casual aspects as well (as I state inside the parent post of this thread). The FF XI fanbase is important to FF XIV success (unless once again FF XIV pulls off a super market success and creates an entirely new fanbase). This fanbase was based upon harsher death penalties, extreme focus of group based gaming, and fun quests, basically not very many casual ideas were in the game FF XI. Yet FF XI still had a steady fanbase of around 500k (and one guy brought up an excellent point that the fanbase kept getting new members because it was unlikely that every single person of the original 500k stayed). If FF XIV wants to take a good, safe and profiting option, it would keep the game mechanics of FF XI, improve them, and try it's best to stay away from casual aspects. Over time, maybe a few can surface, but FF XIV should follow the mechanics of FF XI if it doesn't want to take a serious chance with the casuals that could ultimately fail. Remember, EQ2 failed because it tried applying more casual aspects on the sequel of a game that was hardcore group-based with harsh death punishments. The same could happen to FF XIV if too many casual aspects are applied to the sequel of hardcore group-based game with harsh death punishments that was FF XI.
3. I do like that idea of a less steep learning curve. I can agree, FF XI was a little difficult to adjust to in the beginning. It the game was made a little easier in this aspect, it could help FF XIV.
Well, you do bring up a good point (although I'm still very scared of the idea of FF XIV being more solo friendly). That's why I think that later solo quests could be introduced. However, like Scot mentioned above, soloing does kill alot of group aspects. So, finding that balance will be tricky here, but profiting if it actually ends up working in the end.
They really shouldn't change how FF11 was. I played 11, but not a TON. It wasn't my taste of MMO, but it was a great game. SE shouldn't appeal to the casual and here's why.
All these games coming out and trying to appeal to the common joe, or to pluck people away from other games. Where is all the originality? WoW has made a market of simplicity where you get everything dummied down into one game. I liked how FF11 was group based and soloing was a pain, I actually quit because I couldn't solo that well. I didn't have a lot of free time at the time either. When you try to implement ideas into a game that doesn't support those ideas, the game gets bashed and doesn't flow like how it should. Again, look at WoW. It was heavily PVE based on launch, they implemented PVP, and now it is the most broke and pointless system in the game.
Games need to stick to their origins and ideas. Stop appealing to casual players and design games the way you want them to be played. Look at Aion. Look at all the bashing its getting because the PVE is lacking and it is a supposed "WoW clone". Who cares! FF14 will be made to appeal to FF11 players and possibly some more crowds. It is still going strong too, 1+ million subs doesn't determine success.
Keep what is good and build upon it. Don't change the game.
Sob........
I can't stop crying at how beautiful and magnificient that post is...
I am all for group content but there's no reason for it to be "hardcore" grouping. They need to make grouping more accessible. The standard Tank/healer/DPS scheme is getting old to be honest, it makes huge bottlenecks of wasted time. Granted it is difficult to make content that 5 healers can do AND 5 tanks can do instead of the perfect combination, but waiting on the game and to form the "perfect" party is plain stupid. The classes need to be more "well rounded" so they can take on whatever role is needed in the party. We need X healer and X tank with X,Y, and Z DPS is getting archaic.
It's completely silly that some of you defend it to the end of time and are so afraid to stray from it. I personally don't need a game where I can solo to max level but I do want a game I can play. It's not even like I am a super busy guy, but I do have a full time job and a girlfriend and friends. FFXI, the requirements were you couldn't have a full time job, couldn't have a GF unless she played too, couldn't have many friends unless they played also... and that's about it. For all you that went through all that, great, I am actually jealous I didn't get to see much of the game like you, but let's grow up now and let everyone else play an online Final Fantasy game too/
If the best of the best rewards can be gotten through grouping - players will group. Games today have become quest centric whereas older games were mob centric. So instead of grinding tons and tons of mobs you are now grinding tons and tons of pointless quests. That, and if content throughout was just as engaging and addicting as the endgame.
The concept of quests or missions or whatever the game refers to them as needs to be re-evaluated. I bet if you designed a quest that took hours to complete from start to end, had top-notch presentation values (good writing or acting, interesting ingame or well rendered animated sequences, and had everything that made most decent stories entertaining) you'd go a lot farther with players than current games.
personally, I enjoyed final fantasy because you got to control characters with meaning, and not only that but there was also some strategy to it, considering (in the old old old ff1 and 2) you got to control characters with purpose.
Though I would have to say, if it was possible to have a sense of character originality instead of class mixing, and a sense of dual partner ship constantly, even if its just you and someone else... (the idea of an npc partner was great, but I like controlling it more then just watching it do stuff while I tank and such).
in this case I think it would be awesome if you could have a max character that allows you to go anywhere with abilities and such.. but limited to a certain amount, like in the merit points sort of thing. and a sort of side kick that is a pure class or something... I dunno... just tired and excited.
FF FOR THE WIN! da daa da! DA DA DA DAAA DAAAAAA!!! (WOO POOR RYTHM)
Lets not turn this into another solo vs. group debate. Chances are FFXIV's main emphasis will be party play. Just because they want to add content for somebody with only 40 minutes to play doesn't mean they're taking away the group emphasis. Some solo content while you're LFG or don't have time to group would be a nice addition I think.
See, what you just stated in your post is what most of us want to stray away from in some MMOs. Some games are made to be played casually, while others aren't. I think that the crowd who loved FF11 doesn't want casual players, they don't want people who have "lives" that you speak of. They want hardcore, dedicated people who give up lots of time to play. Group centric play helps with this.
Some communities like having large player bases, but some don't. I didn't even play FF11 hardcore but I totally back up not having it a casual game. This is just one step in creating a game that is original and unique. Don't ruin what is good by trying to satisfy a group of people that the game isn't meant for.
Whether you have a "life" or not, pick and choose the games you want to play. I had a life too when I played FF11, and quit because I didn't have the time to put into the game as it wanted me to. One thing that Asian based companies are good at is targeting a certain market and keeping it that way.