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General: LFM Ulduar 25, PST Stats and Achievement
Stradden
Managing EditorMember CommonPosts: 6,696
In his most recent column, MMORPG.com's Garrett Fuller looks at the achievement system in Blizzard's World of Warcraft and talks about how its current use might be affecting the social aspects of the game.
Raiding in WoW remains the best way to get gear. At level 80 there are very few options for players to improve their end game besides Raiding, Heroic Dungeons, and PvP. This is what the world’s premiere MMO has given us. Leveling through the game, which now is more of an annoyance than anything else, to get to 80 and then you have these three options. Raiding has become elite. The top players and guilds now work through dungeons on Hard mode to get the best items for their characters. Warcraft added in the Achievements with Lich King to give players a new sense of accomplishment in the game. When they designed the system did they ever think it would be used to keep players out of top raids? Have WoW’s achievements made the game even more elite than before? Or has Blizzard created a system to get the best players to work together?
Pick up groups are tough to deal with. Nothing is worse than when your pick up group falls apart on the first boss because people cannot play. Every player has been through this in some form. Guilds form and fall apart because of this simple fact, learn to play. Yet, PUGs are what MMOs should be all about. Looking for players online to run adventures together to gain glory and gear is at the heart of the MMO philosophy. While PUGs can be incredibly frustrating, it is still great when you find a good one and crush a dungeon.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Comments
"Game developers put ideas out there and never truly know how they will work in the context of the players."
I'd be surprised if there was a single poster here that didn't expect that to happen in WOW. It's the natural progression. Class, spec, achievement... and if you don't "know your role" and play the game the way others expect you to play and demand that you play, you will have a hard time experiencing the higher and higher content.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
l2play
just kidding.. well, actually no I am not.
You want to get into raiding and people won't invite you because you haven't raided.. well, there are a few things you can do to make sure a good raid leader can tell if you are a good player or not just from looking at you.
1. Gear selection - putting epics in every slot isn't everything, you have to make smart choices in stats. I've had two priests healing my raids with entirely different setups but both Holy spec. One was big on +spellpower and having a large mana pool, one was big on haste and regen. One would spam heal smaller heals efficiently other would drop the big bombs. Same class, pretty much the same spec, gear choices/selection made them totally different playstyles and players.
2. Effort = reward - Get a full set of epics from Heroics and crafting (even a PvP weapon is fine), get them gemmed intelligently, get them enchanted intelligently, and you'll get invited. Having a random hodge-podge of unenchanted and ungemed epic pieces from Heroics doesn't mean anything. If you want to get into raiding and don't have a guild to carry you, you need to put in the leg work to get EVERYTHING you possibly could/can out of non-raiding content first.
3. Research. Research. Research. - tell me you know what to do on each fight.
4. Heroic achievements - So you don't have any raid achievements, that's ok, have you done the hard-mode Heroic stuff? I'll take a player any day to a raid with all their Heroic dungeon achievements.
5. Impress me early - don't ask a ton of questions and have to have everything explained. silently sit there and do your job well and eventually I'll give you props and you'll be invited back next time.
Your opinion is immaterial.
I find your take on this somewhat truthful, but the spin you put on it from two completely opposite extremes misses so much of the in between, which I think is the biggest area of this topic and you gloss right over it.
Pugging is an ungly world that has all sorts of expectations that are far different from a typical guild raid. Putting random people together who have no chemistry, no feeling for each others playstyle is going to be rough. I understand why it is done, because there are a lot of people who think reaching level 80 is all that is required to go and raid and the achievement list helps weed those people out. There are plenty of people with raid experience to fill up a pug, so who can blame someone for not taking less experienced people.
There is always the option to form your own pug raid and not ask for achievements. I join plenty of pugs that have never asked me for a list of my achievements.
On the flip side you compare achievements as some sort of tool that elite guilds use for whatever. There is a whole giant world between pugs and the elite raiders who don't use achievements in the manner you mention. There is no need to join one of the elite guilds, especially if you come from a world of pugging. Frankly I find your mentioning the two in the same area rather silly.
There are plenty of great guilds who work together without asking for a players resume via achievements.
It's pretty much an universal truth in life. In a team based challenge people naturally look to dump the 'dead wood' and replace it with more competent people. The higher the challenge/competition level the more important 'credentials' and 'past experience' becomes.
It's pretty much an universal truth in life. In a team based challenge people naturally look to dump the 'dead wood' and replace it with more competent people. The higher the challenge/competition level the more important 'credentials' and 'past experience' becomes.
People only carry their slow friend on the team for so long before they just stop calling him to come play...
The people who complain about it tend to be the slow friend who got dropped for the new kid across the street with a hoop in his driveway...
Your opinion is immaterial.
I'm sorta the opposite case of Mr. Fuller. I hardly raid with my 80 DK, but I'm in a guild that does 3 nights a week raids of the latest content (just about to finish Ulduar 25). I raid when my guild is short a person or two, so I go into these fights not knowing the drills, not having the gear, and generally clueless about what to do...
However, I get the lowdown real quick (its amazing how "simple" most fights are when you break it down to "melee until X spell goes off, stop attacking, hop on a ice pile till it goes off, then go back to meleeing, etc.) and I do my best to NOT screw up. I'm sure I'm dead last on DPS meters, but I don't screw up costing the raid a wipe (Thankfully so far
). My gear is definitely NOT epic, I have like 3 purple items, items from Naxx 25 which were going to rot anyways. I don't have many symbols and I won't be able to afford a set in forever. But even with my gimped quest reward blue items, I still survive the AE's, do my damage, and help the guild in the small way that I can.
It's odd looking at my achievements. I have achievements many hard-core raiders don't have, and I don't have achievements even the most casual of PUG'ers does. LOL... I still haven't visited every dungeon in WotLK in a normal 5 man group. Yet I have the achievement from Yodir? where I had all 3 "winter buffs" (I forget the name)...
Read my post above about being carried by a guild
Your opinion is immaterial.
Read my post above about being carried by a guild
Hehe, I'm only in the guild because I'm a coworker of the guild leader, and he knows I'm not an idiot
. I could fall way behind and they'd let me in because they'd rather have a known quantity with horrible gear than an unknown quantity with epics and achievements 
.
Also, I was a super-hard core raider in EQ1, where it was a 7 day a week, 6+ hours a day thing for a couple years. Since the people who make WoW's raids were EQ1 raiders, there isn't much new under the sun to learn for me. WoW's raids tend to be tons easier anyways, far less trash clearing (well, since Molten Core anyways), and bosses are practically next door to each other and the fights take 5-10 minutes most of the time (As opposed to the 45 minute choreographed fights or longer in EQ1).
My biggest worry is not having enough HP to survive AE's as a melee'er.
This post is a great example of why I decided to quit WoW (nothing personal against you, johnspartan).
Here's the thing: I'm a very competent gamer w/ tons of experience and I don't just learn the class I play - I know it inside and out. And yet somehow there's always some stat-mongering group/guild/raid leader pissing and moaning that I "need" X in order to do Y.
Hey folks... remember the "G" in "MMORPG" stands for "Game".
Having purples and reading a strategy guide doesn't make you a good player. When will people realize this?
No godless person can comprehend those minute distinctions
in doctrine that provide true believers excuse for mayhem.
-Glen Cook
It's pretty much an universal truth in life. In a team based challenge people naturally look to dump the 'dead wood' and replace it with more competent people. The higher the challenge/competition level the more important 'credentials' and 'past experience' becomes.
People only carry their slow friend on the team for so long before they just stop calling him to come play...
The people who complain about it tend to be the slow friend who got dropped for the new kid across the street with a hoop in his driveway...
I guess it's all a matter of what you are looking for in your MMO gaming. I pick my groupmates based on conversation and who happens to be nearby, especially when it comes to games like WOW where it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference if we succeed or fail - at that point my only concern is if we had fun along the way.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
This post is a great example of why I decided to quit WoW (nothing personal against you, johnspartan).
Here's the thing: I'm a very competent gamer w/ tons of experience and I don't just learn the class I play - I know it inside and out. And yet somehow there's always some stat-mongering group/guild/raid leader pissing and moaning that I "need" X in order to do Y.
Hey folks... remember the "G" in "MMORPG" stands for "Game".
Having purples and reading a strategy guide doesn't make you a good player. When will people realize this?
Not arguing your point at all.
Read the re-highlighted text in my post. I'm responding to the OP about wanted to be able to show/prove you are good/decent without having raid experience. Specific answer for specific problem.
Your opinion is immaterial.
"Doesn't make the slightest bit of difference if we succeed or fail"?
Wow, no wonder you like solo play in MMOs so much...
yes you can still put a team together and lose and still have fun but why not try to win? If you like failing... well... yeah stick to the solo stuff, I wouldn't want to group with someone who didn't care.
I mean, if I have a choice between my friends and random people for a group I'll always choose my friends, but I guess my friends are other like-minded good players... honestly sounds like you are the last kid picked in kickball trying to justify picking the other losers for your team.
It's the whole "as long as you put in your best effort" and "everyone wins through good sportsmanship" and "everyone deserves a gold star" crap that has infected American society and turned the vast majority of the new generations into self-centered attention seeking consumer driven little sh!ts with this grand sense of entitlement...
God forbid those of us that actually worked for something and like a little competition and winning actually deserve to enjoy the fruits of our labor.
What else can we hand you?
Your opinion is immaterial.
"I do agree that nothing is worse than failing on a raid. When I join a raid I like knowing that everyone is capable and can play their classes correctly."
And you have stated the problem with why so many people can't stand raids. Everyone expects to go through with out failing. If the outcome is certain why do it? Why can't I just sit my character in a corner for five hours and get the same reward? Isn't that the exact same thing when you will always win?
The hardest part of raiding is forming the perfect group so you can't fail. BORING!!!
Would be nice to see people just get in a group and do a dungeon crawl.
Great post.
I definitely know how's that, especially since I used to play (quit WoW a few months ago) in a small server, so unless you're known around, it's gonna be tough to get started on raids.
I've also gone through the stress of getting in the occasional PUG raid and failing miserably because of the people not knowing what to do, either because it's their first time (and seen people that have learned the encounters quickly), or because they're utter morons (not just because you tell em to do something 5 times in a row and they still don't get it, but because they''re compelled to do exactly the opposite). But, I'm not an elitist and I'll gladly add new people in a raid if they're willing to learn, after all the idea of playing with different people is what MMORPGs are all about. But since the Achievement system, I've seen the elitism in raids even worse than before. Hell, I remember I did the new VOA boss with a decent PUGthe same night the new patch was added (I was quite geared for the encounter, mind you), and of course we failed several times because we didn't know how to do it properly. Then I stop doing serious raiding for about a week because of real life and college, I check here and there how the encounter work, I start looking for a group to raid him, and all of a sudden I can't because I don't have the Achievement. Does that mean that every time there's a new raid I have to rush to go through it faster than anyone else just to have the achievement or I won't be able to do it anymore? (Of course, I eventually killed him, being a healer helps in getting in the occasional PUG).
I know, I repeated most of what the OP said, but I had to vent off. The game should be more friendly to the new 80s, because getting started in raids nowadays can be quite stressing. Actually, it can be just as hard to get started in later raids like Ulduar than the first ones. And when the new raid comes, I hope people is ready to rush through it, or they will be left out that one as well.
I agree that Blizzard has to work a way around the Achievement system, although the idea of the OP of giving top gear for adding new people would mean alot of people literally getting ran through the raids.
I started playing WOW back in 2005, back in the day that you needed stand around IF and shout out "xxlvlTank, Healer LFG for Strat.. In those days the only guilds going MC, BWL was one of the top 3 guilds in the game. Those guilds didn't take walk-in's, you didn't run up and ask to join there guild. You proved yourself to them by playing your character and being seen by one of there Officers. Or runnning a small raid of 10 and having one of there Officers see you and ask you to join. So now you need to link Achievements, all thay have done is made it EZ for them to understand your playing ability.
After seeing what happened to WOW by making it posable for any person with a computer to have Epics I unstand. So based on what you are saying, now lets make it so that you can't use Achievements to judge how well a person plays?
..its a guideline, not a rule, as players we must remember: Its a Game.
I fully support your right to group with other people who do not care if you 'succeed or fail'. If you want to form a raid and just goof off in the instance for hours, more power to you. However, if you join a raid that is actually trying to beat the encounters then you better do your best or you are just a saboteur.
"Nothing is worse than when your pick up group falls apart on the first boss because people cannot play."
I totally disagree---I'd much rather be in a group of newbies who are trying to have fun than in a group of socially-inept (i.e., rude, offensive and childish) players only playing to get the best gear.
Tthis is in part responsible for why I don't group anymore so I can have as little contact with pr#%ks as possible. The other major contributor is just the lack of time.
This leads to the idea that most of this is moot anyway for a sizable portion of WoW players (I'm guessing), since we can only play a few hours a week. In other words, Ulduar and a lot of "raid" dungeons are totally irrelevant as we will never have an opportunity to try them out anyway.
"Doesn't make the slightest bit of difference if we succeed or fail"?
Wow, no wonder you like solo play in MMOs so much...
yes you can still put a team together and lose and still have fun but why not try to win? If you like failing... well... yeah stick to the solo stuff, I wouldn't want to group with someone who didn't care.
I mean, if I have a choice between my friends and random people for a group I'll always choose my friends, but I guess my friends are other like-minded good players... honestly sounds like you are the last kid picked in kickball trying to justify picking the other losers for your team.
It's the whole "as long as you put in your best effort" and "everyone wins through good sportsmanship" and "everyone deserves a gold star" crap that has infected American society and turned the vast majority of the new generations into self-centered attention seeking consumer driven little sh!ts with this grand sense of entitlement...
God forbid those of us that actually worked for something and like a little competition and winning actually deserve to enjoy the fruits of our labor.
What else can we hand you?
Aside from the fact that I never said I wasn't playing to try to succeed or win...
This is the part that you forced grouping guys refuse to admit about your own gameplay. You are not playing to socialize or interact. Your goal is the loot. Other people are a necessity for you to obtain your loot. You will castigate people who like to have the option of solo play for being anti-social because they will group with their friends and family but not YOU. At the same time, your entire gameplay is about the most anti-social possible - your concern is with bringing a set of the appropriate stats and skills with you to make sure you get your item. This is reinforced in the fact that you infer above those with a casual attitude towards playing a vidoe game are "the losers" or that they must've been "picked last for the kickball team." You are playing the MMO to win. There's nothing wrong with that.
I'm playing to have have fun... to goof around and play games with others. That's why I'm playing a multiplayer online game. This is not a career for me (playing, that is) and it's of little priority in the grand scheme of things. That someone spec'd the 'wrong' skillset or that they haven't achieved tier whatever of Caverns of Goopnarp in Superduper Mode makes no difference to me. If the person is fun to chat with or entertaining then I'll just have a blast playing for as far as we can get into the dungeon we are headed to. That interaction is worth much more to me than walking around with Eiffel Towers on my shoulders.
And I'm not sure where you got that I wanted anything handed to me or that I felt everyone deserved a gold star or whatever gibberish you started spouting towards the end of that rant of yours. So, you can toss all the insults and snide remarks at me all you want. I enjoy the way I play and I enjoy the company of the people that I meet.
Sorry it upsets you so.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Ok, here is what I have been seeing the recent years in MMOs. Everyone wants everything now and not later. It's the same mentality as those poor kids that are being raised in sports activities where everyone gets a trophy and everyones a winner! Well guess what not everyone is a winner and that is a horrible way to expect the world to oblige you.
Have I in the past been a part of teams that were the top and kicked ass? Yes, but dear god the effort was required at every step of the way to get there. However, everytime we succeeded it all started from us being at the bottom and working our way up and earning our way. I appreciate someone taking time and putting in their time in the dirt to get some ground on that upward road. Good, you are proving your desire and earned what you get. Now that doesn't mean there aren'y those handed things because of who they know, but that is a minority.
I hold no ill will towards anyone that asks a certian level of requirement on what the existing team is expecting from those already on board. Someone in Single A ball won't get asked to the Majors just because they are part of the same organization. Effort is required, time is required, and more often than not these two will not come easily.
Current / new MMO players are almost wanting everyont handed to them, I pay the monthly I should get it. Wrong. Just because you are of legal age doesn't mean you are handed a drivers license. Just because you have a license doesn't mean you get good insurance rates. Everything takes time and that gives experience. Next thing you know, you are part of that group you wanted to be in and are working towards goals.
END OF LINE_
~V
I fully support your right to group with other people who do not care if you 'succeed or fail'. If you want to form a raid and just goof off in the instance for hours, more power to you. However, if you join a raid that is actually trying to beat the encounters then you better do your best or you are just a saboteur.
I agree completely. In a serious or high-end raid I wouldn't waste their time with my nonsense and I have no desire to listen to an adult scream and yell over vent because someone didn't mash their buttons in the right sequence. I recently got lucky and found an EQ2 guild that has great leaders and I enjoy raiding there, but in WOW I realized early that raiding wasn't for me.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
That idea you had about better rewards for bringing "noobs" into raids, dungeons, etc is a great one, but I think you and everyone else can see what would happen. The "elite guilds" would just bring in guild alts that are reasonably geared to the raids so they could get the rewards for their mains, and still bring players that they know know how to play... So no "new" players would get in. Granted, it would probably help newer raiders a lot, because not every raiding guild would take advantage of the system the way I described, but it would still happen a lot. I do agree that something like this should be done, if for no other reason than to help bridge the gap for people that want to raid but are a little behind...
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"Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
Member Since March 2004
I think anytime you have a game where the grouping is so rigid that you HAVE to have anything, the whole point is lost. Might as well just make everyone watch a movie of the heroic then give them the goodies.
one of the reasons I left WoW was the achievement type system of the end game. I was in no way lacking achievements in burning crusade, I had everything from a dragon mount to enough equipment to make me extremelly powerful in a raid.
One reason I did leave however because the achievement system to me seemed flawed, I was watching people grinding the same raid for hours, and hours simply because their particular item they wanted was not dropping, and people supported this. When you hear someone say "you need to get the Helm of Blahblah" then you just feel like screaming at them that you been running the raid for three months and every time it drops you miss out. It seemed such a waste of time for something that really once you got you would spend another 6 months in the next raid dungeon getting an item to replace it.
Don't get me wrong, outside the dungeons was fantastic, but in the end you NEED to do a dungeon (or pvp repetitively) to get anything worth while.
I understand his point of view but Naxx 10? That raid dungeon can be beat in a mixture of greens/blues as long as you are hit capped.
This post is a great example of why I decided to quit WoW (nothing personal against you, johnspartan).
Here's the thing: I'm a very competent gamer w/ tons of experience and I don't just learn the class I play - I know it inside and out. And yet somehow there's always some stat-mongering group/guild/raid leader pissing and moaning that I "need" X in order to do Y.
Hey folks... remember the "G" in "MMORPG" stands for "Game".
Having purples and reading a strategy guide doesn't make you a good player. When will people realize this?
Not arguing your point at all.
Read the re-highlighted text in my post. I'm responding to the OP about wanted to be able to show/prove you are good/decent without having raid experience. Specific answer for specific problem.
Yeah, I understood what you were saying ,which is why I specified that I have nothing against you.
My point was that in a MMORPG, it shouldn't be the "norm" that everyone asks for stats / equip / achievements in order to gauge your worth. Having to study strats and guides for an hour before I log in isn't my idea of fun. For those who want to min/max, fine - enjoy it. But it seems as if the vast majority of current MMO players suffer from e-peen issues.
I played EQ1 for 6 years, and my main was a warrior. EQ had some of the most hardcore gamers I've ever met in my entire life. And even still, when I was LFG, no one asked me what raids I had tanked or what phat lewtz I had. They invited me and gave me a chance to show them I was a competent tank.
And honestly... the death penalty in EQ was a frikkin' nightmare depending on where you died. In games like WoW where death means friggin' nothing aside from a short run and paying a few gold for repairs, I find it unforgivable that people freak out when they bite it. Get over it.
No godless person can comprehend those minute distinctions
in doctrine that provide true believers excuse for mayhem.
-Glen Cook