I suspect that the WoW Dev's knew *exactly* how the armory and achievements would be used. That being, to separate those who have lives(and thus limited time) and those who don't. ^^ I've been in WoW since late beta. Its a good game all the way to level cap. Then as you mentioned, its raiding, heroics, and PvP. I currently have two 80s(Pally and deathknight) a level 71 warrior and a level 70 rogue.
The pally and deathknight have a mix of crafted blues and a few epics. Both have epic weapons(one from the Stormwind AT QM, the other crafted). As one fellow mentioned, I fill in when no one else is available, and anything I happen to get would have ended up sharded anyway. I pretty much solo'ed my way to 80 with both of them, so I've missed most of the dungeons along the way. Its my own fault, as I play at odd times, and I'm not very social.
My guild tolerates me because I've been in for years, and I help people with their alts and help the guild when I can. Bottom line, its about what one wants out of the game. Its a hobby to me, not a second job or the focus of my life.
My guild tolerates me because I've been in for years, and I help people with their alts and help the guild when I can. Bottom line, its about what one wants out of the game. Its a hobby to me, not a second job or the focus of my life.
"tolerates" is exactly the point of the article, your guild tolerates you despite you not meeting their standards because you find a niche that they need. If you did not supply that niche would the guild treat you the same?
Originally posted by LynxJSA I guess it's all a matter of what you are looking for in your MMO gaming. I pick my groupmates based on conversation and who happens to be nearby, especially when it comes to games like WOW where it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference if we succeed or fail - at that point my only concern is if we had fun along the way.
"Doesn't make the slightest bit of difference if we succeed or fail"?
Wow, no wonder you like solo play in MMOs so much...
yes you can still put a team together and lose and still have fun but why not try to win? If you like failing... well... yeah stick to the solo stuff, I wouldn't want to group with someone who didn't care.
I mean, if I have a choice between my friends and random people for a group I'll always choose my friends, but I guess my friends are other like-minded good players... honestly sounds like you are the last kid picked in kickball trying to justify picking the other losers for your team.
It's the whole "as long as you put in your best effort" and "everyone wins through good sportsmanship" and "everyone deserves a gold star" crap that has infected American society and turned the vast majority of the new generations into self-centered attention seeking consumer driven little sh!ts with this grand sense of entitlement...
God forbid those of us that actually worked for something and like a little competition and winning actually deserve to enjoy the fruits of our labor.
What else can we hand you?
If your sense of self is so bound up in bits of digital symbolism, I suspect you have greater issues than simply those with "welfare epics". ^^ But you do make a valid point, but you've not taken it to the logical conclusion. WHY are so many, many people such shallow, ignorant, docile, obedient, consumerist sheep? Answer: Because that is what the social/political power system requires in order to continue its existence in its current state. Sure winning matters. But is it ALL that matters? Games are supposed to be about having fun. Sure, winning can be fun. But if I have to exclude people I've known for years because they lack the talent/time/drive to be the "best", you can count me out. I'd rather pick lower level instances that we can all enjoy, than the top level ones that only a select few will ever be good enough to beat.
My guild tolerates me because I've been in for years, and I help people with their alts and help the guild when I can. Bottom line, its about what one wants out of the game. Its a hobby to me, not a second job or the focus of my life.
"tolerates" is exactly the point of the article, your guild tolerates you despite you not meeting their standards because you find a niche that they need. If you did not supply that niche would the guild treat you the same?
Given that I'm hardly one of the guild masters favorite people, I seriously doubt it. ^^ He is one of the best players that I've ever seen in all of my years in WoW. He always has the best gear and achievements. But he also tends to be fair, and since I don't cost the guild anything, he tends to overlook me.
I suspect that the WoW Dev's knew *exactly* how the armory and achievements would be used. That being, to separate those who have lives(and thus limited time) and those who don't. ^^ I've been in WoW since late beta. Its a good game all the way to level cap. Then as you mentioned, its raiding, heroics, and PvP. I currently have two 80s(Pally and deathknight) a level 71 warrior and a level 70 rogue. The pally and deathknight have a mix of crafted blues and a few epics. Both have epic weapons(one from the Stormwind AT QM, the other crafted). As one fellow mentioned, I fill in when no one else is available, and anything I happen to get would have ended up sharded anyway. I pretty much solo'ed my way to 80 with both of them, so I've missed most of the dungeons along the way. Its my own fault, as I play at odd times, and I'm not very social. My guild tolerates me because I've been in for years, and I help people with their alts and help the guild when I can. Bottom line, its about what one wants out of the game. Its a hobby to me, not a second job or the focus of my life.
That's sums it about up for me.
Until recently, I had an internet connection that'd reset randomly for 3 minutes at a time, and that made me shun grouping and raiding all the more, since I didn't want to irritate people waiting for me.
Plus, I did the "hard core raider" bit before, I had the 2nd best druid on my EQ1 server for a time, and realized... I'm "working" at playing a game, and I'm not getting paid to do it. That had to stop. So I came back to MMO's casually, and have managed to keep them that way.
Of course, working a job that makes me work a ton keeps my powergaming to a minimum as well.
Why is it developers have to keep adding features to the games when in the end it tends to make them worse?
Even Blizzard is not above this. Achievements are the true anathama of the casual player. Why I don't play Wow anymore and truely pity those that still do.
Blizzard better watch out or a good game is going to come along and steal their thunder.
I see both sides. Nothing is worse than grouping with a total idiot. However, just because they are a total idiot doesn't mean they haven't ran the dungeon. After all, we are talking about MMOs. They aren't that mentally challenging.
I think its kinda easy to get that initial achievement. Join a half competent guild. Do a dungeon. Bingo you have the achievement.
I will admit I don't have an 80 in WoW, so it may not be that simple. However, I think it is.
The worst part of WoW is kids forget this is a game, sucks when you come on the game just to play and the kids shoot you down cuz you dont have gear or experience, kids are the people that make wow, not fun to paly sometimes.
haven't read every post, so maybe I am repeating, but...
"Leveling the game, now more of an annoyance than anything else"... that phrase is the problem, because the writer forgot to PLAY the game.
I never worry about any of the gear, except to notice I found or bought or earned something cool, and saying, "oh that's nice."
I never worry about what accomplishments other players have, I simply play the game with them if they are fun to play with, and don't if they are not.
I join guilds not for some kind of replacement sense of belonging and accomplishment, but because I get to help and be helped when it makes sense to do so.
I have only rarely found the game to be a grind, and when I do, I switch characters or create a new one. Or I take a break from the "progression" and play differently: soloing lower level instances to see where the limit of my abilities are. Intentionally playing "wrong," using aspects of the character that make it weaker but new again. Finding new combinations of PUG's to go against named or elite mobs, seeing what it takes from each party member to pull off a tough kill.
I really think that people miss the appeal of the game when they start crunching numbers - or maybe that's what's fun to them, but it seems to make a whole lot of people real cranky. It's fun because it's a polished, well-designed adventure with a lot of variety of classes and abilities.
The whole thing reminds me of the comic who recently observed that 15 years ago having internet at all was amazing. Now, 15 minutes after the very first time people can use it on a plane, someone experiences a temporary lag or loss of service, and they say, "this is bullshit!" WoW is astounding, and so are many of these games each in their own way. They are massive accomplishments simply in being playable and available. Enjoy.
Good article Achievements are either the bane for ALL players or uselessness for epeen, which can be derived in skill anyway...
Achievement raiding was the final straw that led me to quit. Watching a top end guild that could clear every dungeon with a perfect group in less than 2 hours, wipe for hours & hours to earn a title or a mount...disgusted me. Having to raid 3-4 nights a week, every week, with insane amounts of QQ if you had anything RL to do - wanes on the soul; with a full time job, coming home and having hours of free time beyond a quick raid, was always a more viable option (at least for me)....dashed in hopes of another mount to add to the stack or another frivilous title. Also, add the random server crashes, latency issues, failing macros, and various things that always pop up may or may not effect the success of a fight, but may destroy hours of work on an achievement. Over time achievements become part of the grind, but the value they add...is nothing to the work required (imo).
Fortunately for me, achievements meant absolutely nothing. A fully gemmed and enchanted MT is an ominous figure and always ready to tank anything & everything, but nontheless I think a good points were made in the article & in replies. When Lich King came out, running new 80 instances in tier 6...being crushed like a maniac, trying to stack every ounce of gemmed defense I could...made things fun.
Wiping in an instance and pugging have earned a connotation I don't think is fair overall. Any person who truely enjoys raiding, does not enjoy wiping (of course) but the key is progression & improvement. If your raid is getting better and people are learning (new raiders included), then its not a big deal and not "woe is the world". Wiping for achievements however...and then valuing people if they grinded time earning those achievements, to me is a sad state of affairs.
I saw great promise in clearing raids quick and using achievements as a sidebar...but instead - it taxes raids, adding more issues than anything of value, as achievements mean little and prove nothing. Best of luck to anyway raiding still, I -do not- envy you and I hope new devs never use achievements so lamely again.
And in the end, its just more drama to deal with on top of the cache of drama that top guilds have to deal with anyway. Also remember, Achievements are *not* content - so lets hope that future quality dev time is being displaced to their other titles, including their new mmo in the works (whatever it may be). But I'm sure everyone will love grinding 5 months of the same raid over & over - nothing to look forward but a raid to be cleared in a month or 2 (speaking to the raid-only folks of course), good times
"I just wonder if there is a better system out there which is designed to help newer players who are geared properly get into raids for the first time. The guild system can work in this way but most elite guilds only recruit top players, they don’t want noobs. Yet, why not offer rewards for guilds who recruit and help new players on raids, achievements, and gear etc. Imagine a system where your guild can gain access to top epic loot by simply helping out new players."
Fail. You totally ignore the fact that the source of the problem are the player themselves, and those investing time in the game are simply using whatever they can as a way of shielding themselves from wasting it, thus protecting their investment (monthly fee).
You know a raid can suck up to 4 hours. What if at the end of it you gained absolutely NOTHING and that's because the game is so tightly balanced around perfection that a couple of noobs in the group make it a complete wreck?
Furthermore, the solution wouldn't help the noobs at all, those guilds would just buy new accounts, powerlevel the toons, slash-follow a healer/caster in a raid and acquire the loot without helping a single new player. If it can be done, you can bet your arse they'll do it.
Want to blame someone? Blame blizzard that truly doesn't prepare the new player for what's ahead. Leveling a character from 1 to 80 cannot even be considered as low as a tutorial, since you know squat about raid tactics and mechanics. Want to blame someone? Blame blizzard for not tuning the encounters around, say, 18 skilled people out of 25.
But of course, if the game were that easy to play people would quit dripping in boredom 3 months after an expansion pack. Just face it, the learning curve in WoW is the most steep and frustrating one ever, and those who made it to the flatlands aren't wiling to give up their epeen status for you to gaze on the Azerothians from their heights in just 3/4 months of play time. Aren't they claiming the "Easy to play, hard to master" motto since the dawn of their titles?
That is what makes the game survive, you all need to gaze on those few up top achieving, wannabeing all the way; you still need to be frantically trying to go where no noob has gone before. Without that, wow would already be long dead, 'cause the amount of repetitiveness in it warrants no longevity, despite the new content they keep adding.
Does it benefit the noob? No. Does it benefit the veteran/pro player? No. (They sooner or later need fresh blood if their guilds want to go on). It benefits Blizzard and it won't forever, but for long enough to become financially as heavy as a small independent country.
I'm afraid that while your concerns are true, the solution to this is the same that every successful guild/group/individual has had to end up to: Find a group of like-minded, determined people, research information, plan tactics and practice till you're disgusted about the game as much as if it were the worst job ever, but sedate that feeling with the achievements and earned social status.
I just don't see that as the problem, as much as the deviation that it exposes in modern society. The results of the experiment will be food for thoughts for decades to come.
Bottomline: It's not a consumer product that you buy, unwrap and enjoy out of the box. Nothing can be "FUN" forever. Blizzard understood that and put extremely hard to achieve goals in the game, so to create a leading edge and a mass of followers to that edge. If there weren't forums to discuss these matters you'd still be grinding your teeth wondering "WTF!?", while Blizzard cashes on you. People whine about it, find nothing or little fun in it, but still pay their subscription.
You want to get into raiding and people won't invite you because you haven't raided.. well, there are a few things you can do to make sure a good raid leader can tell if you are a good player or not just from looking at you. 1. Gear selection - putting epics in every slot isn't everything, you have to make smart choices in stats. I've had two priests healing my raids with entirely different setups but both Holy spec. One was big on +spellpower and having a large mana pool, one was big on haste and regen. One would spam heal smaller heals efficiently other would drop the big bombs. Same class, pretty much the same spec, gear choices/selection made them totally different playstyles and players.
2. Effort = reward - Get a full set of epics from Heroics and crafting (even a PvP weapon is fine), get them gemmed intelligently, get them enchanted intelligently, and you'll get invited. Having a random hodge-podge of unenchanted and ungemed epic pieces from Heroics doesn't mean anything. If you want to get into raiding and don't have a guild to carry you, you need to put in the leg work to get EVERYTHING you possibly could/can out of non-raiding content first.
3. Research. Research. Research. - tell me you know what to do on each fight.
4. Heroic achievements - So you don't have any raid achievements, that's ok, have you done the hard-mode Heroic stuff? I'll take a player any day to a raid with all their Heroic dungeon achievements. 5. Impress me early - don't ask a ton of questions and have to have everything explained. silently sit there and do your job well and eventually I'll give you props and you'll be invited back next time.
I found this advice to be spot on, but it is also why I don't raid any more.
You see, I used to work in a high level competitive sales job. We were hammered daily about meeting goals and expectations. These expectations were very similar in context to the expectations posted by johnspartan here.
If you replace the words "Raid, Gear, Achievements, etc" with "Sales, Position, and Performance, etc" this write up is almost a verbatum list of the requirements and expectations for that job. Potential earnings? Upto six figures and I made 75K.
The point is, if I am going to be held to such standards like those listed above, as many guilds require, I may as well meet them where it matters: Real Life. It least then, I get something tangible, like a paycheck.
I used to raid, and realized this, and now I just can't do it. I just can't take such "elitism" in a GAME seriously enough, so I choose not to rub elbows with such players. It's all cool, for they have the epics, and I have the paycheck.
You want to get into raiding and people won't invite you because you haven't raided.. well, there are a few things you can do to make sure a good raid leader can tell if you are a good player or not just from looking at you. 1. Gear selection - putting epics in every slot isn't everything, you have to make smart choices in stats. I've had two priests healing my raids with entirely different setups but both Holy spec. One was big on +spellpower and having a large mana pool, one was big on haste and regen. One would spam heal smaller heals efficiently other would drop the big bombs. Same class, pretty much the same spec, gear choices/selection made them totally different playstyles and players.
2. Effort = reward - Get a full set of epics from Heroics and crafting (even a PvP weapon is fine), get them gemmed intelligently, get them enchanted intelligently, and you'll get invited. Having a random hodge-podge of unenchanted and ungemed epic pieces from Heroics doesn't mean anything. If you want to get into raiding and don't have a guild to carry you, you need to put in the leg work to get EVERYTHING you possibly could/can out of non-raiding content first.
3. Research. Research. Research. - tell me you know what to do on each fight.
4. Heroic achievements - So you don't have any raid achievements, that's ok, have you done the hard-mode Heroic stuff? I'll take a player any day to a raid with all their Heroic dungeon achievements. 5. Impress me early - don't ask a ton of questions and have to have everything explained. silently sit there and do your job well and eventually I'll give you props and you'll be invited back next time.
Elitists like this guy is probably a big reason why the OP wrote the article. Arrogant players who think that their experience in a pixelated environment makes them a better person than someone else. Specificly pointing out the comment about his #5 comment, that's as arrogant as they come...Impress me early he says, laughable at best. If anything, other players should be offering to guide others through the raids that haven't and that need to learn the raids, not be self-centered jerks about it.
Blizzard probably didn't know how the system would be handled down the road like one of the other posters said, BUT now that that system has been in place for a couple years now they have had plenty of time to recognize and correct the oversight which they haven't. It's not just WoW that is infected with the attitude but Lotro is becoming the same way, partly because some of the WoW raiders got bored failing or getting denied by raids in WoW so they went to Lotro to pull the same elitist mentality. I have played Lotro since alpha, it was never as bad as it is now ever since MoM came out. I have great raid gear and max lvl toons in both mmo's but I did it by grouping with friends who helped me learn the raids and in turn I help others when I can.
I keep note of jerks like the above poster I quoted and if those guys go LFG they get denied and if they happen to ask me to their group, I decline. I play by my own terms, not theirs.
The worst part of WoW is kids forget this is a game, sucks when you come on the game just to play and the kids shoot you down cuz you dont have gear or experience, kids are the people that make wow, not fun to paly sometimes.
Yea, because real adults get on message boards to cry about kids stopping them from enjoyng a game.
"I'm playing to have have fun... to goof around and play games with others. That's why I'm playing a multiplayer online game. This is not a career for me (playing, that is) and it's of little priority in the grand scheme of things."
It's unfortunate that a video game plays such a large factor in some people lives that they have to take things so seriously. I don't care what happens as long as I have fun. I could have enjoyed a night of getting my butt handed to me in a large scale pvp raid in the middle of nowhere, or maybe getting wiped a few times during a run, or perhaps we cleared something on the first shot.
It is my OPINION that if a person is so emotionally attached to a video game they need to seek out other sources or social interaction of mean of entertainment.
The achievement system was a good idea but is just abused in WOW but was going to happen with the mindset of the gear oriented game's player base (at least some of them).
Originally posted by LynxJSA I guess it's all a matter of what you are looking for in your MMO gaming. I pick my groupmates based on conversation and who happens to be nearby, especially when it comes to games like WOW where it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference if we succeed or fail - at that point my only concern is if we had fun along the way.
"Doesn't make the slightest bit of difference if we succeed or fail"?
Wow, no wonder you like solo play in MMOs so much...
yes you can still put a team together and lose and still have fun but why not try to win? If you like failing... well... yeah stick to the solo stuff, I wouldn't want to group with someone who didn't care.
I mean, if I have a choice between my friends and random people for a group I'll always choose my friends, but I guess my friends are other like-minded good players... honestly sounds like you are the last kid picked in kickball trying to justify picking the other losers for your team.
It's the whole "as long as you put in your best effort" and "everyone wins through good sportsmanship" and "everyone deserves a gold star" crap that has infected American society and turned the vast majority of the new generations into self-centered attention seeking consumer driven little sh!ts with this grand sense of entitlement...
God forbid those of us that actually worked for something and like a little competition and winning actually deserve to enjoy the fruits of our labor.
What else can we hand you?
Aside from the fact that I never said I wasn't playing to try to succeed or win...
This is the part that you forced grouping guys refuse to admit about your own gameplay. You are not playing to socialize or interact. Your goal is the loot. Other people are a necessity for you to obtain your loot. You will castigate people who like to have the option of solo play for being anti-social because they will group with their friends and family but not YOU. At the same time, your entire gameplay is about the most anti-social possible - your concern is with bringing a set of the appropriate stats and skills with you to make sure you get your item. This is reinforced in the fact that you infer above those with a casual attitude towards playing a vidoe game are "the losers" or that they must've been "picked last for the kickball team." You are playing the MMO to win. There's nothing wrong with that.
I'm playing to have have fun... to goof around and play games with others. That's why I'm playing a multiplayer online game. This is not a career for me (playing, that is) and it's of little priority in the grand scheme of things. That someone spec'd the 'wrong' skillset or that they haven't achieved tier whatever of Caverns of Goopnarp in Superduper Mode makes no difference to me. If the person is fun to chat with or entertaining then I'll just have a blast playing for as far as we can get into the dungeon we are headed to. That interaction is worth much more to me than walking around with Eiffel Towers on my shoulders.
And I'm not sure where you got that I wanted anything handed to me or that I felt everyone deserved a gold star or whatever gibberish you started spouting towards the end of that rant of yours. So, you can toss all the insults and snide remarks at me all you want. I enjoy the way I play and I enjoy the company of the people that I meet.
Sorry it upsets you so.
Yeah ive never understood the raid guild mentality myself. Of course everyone wants to kill the boss and get the loot (if the raid leader so designates it ) but not killing the boss and getting the loot isnt the worst thing that will happen in your life. If it is you are very fortunate.
This is a rather tricky thing. On one hand it is nice to know something about the players you recruit to a raid or group but on the other hand you will probably reject people unfairly and miss out on some good players.
It is kinda the same problem as trying to get a job just after school, you need experience to get a job but you can't get any unless you have a job.
I rather not have catch 22s like that in a game, Some things should point out that a character have done tough things in the past or not but I think this is just too much. I think Blizzard took something that could have been a good idea and took it too far.
I understand his point of view but Naxx 10? That raid dungeon can be beat in a mixture of greens/blues as long as you are hit capped.
You weren't around for TBC and the horribly nerfed Karazhan huh? :P
I ran into plenty of groups who wanted to run Karazhan, and would kick you if you had anything below The Eye/SSC, and once the sunwell came out, that requirement rose to Black Temple+ gear only. I wasn't in a bunch of greens, nope. I worked my arse off doing heroics and grinding reps just to get gear. So I wouldn't be surprised if several PUGs running naxx-10 require you to have cleared 10-man Alganon in only your knickers.
Hell. I remember before Lich King came out and the achievement system wasn't even a week old, that guilds already started requiring a certain amount. One in particular had the bare minimum set to 3.5-4k, and every time someone questioned it, they'd have more than enough players to bury C'thun spam and whisper "Rofl fckin nub l2p". Safe to say, I had a good chunk of players enter my "ignore list" that day simply because I asked if that was even possible to get 3.5k.
If it isn't one way for a bunch of p**cks to keep you out, it'll always be another. And when I heard about the achievement system, I laughed. Because I knew this crap would happen. The ONLY good thing about judging someone based on their achieves, is that many can be gotten with little work, and isn't, I'll repeat, ISN'T a measure of skill. Just a measure of people you manage to group with. Achievements are also character specific, so god forbid you run across one of this A-hole pugs on an alt you just geared up, they won't believe you.
And Loke, I agree with that analogy. Been trying to get a job ever since I hit 16, 4 years later, nothing still. Doesn't help that my state's practically a blackhole when it comes to jobs. Hell, a place I've gone to ever since it opened (about 10 years) has only hired 2-3 new people in that span of 4 years, and each one could be outsmarted by a bunch of rocks in a burlap sack...
And honestly? I don't feel like having to deal with that in real life, and in a game.
No worries, i quit WoW because i couldn't find enough competant players on at the same time, i had a list of 50, and never could see them all on, so i just quit, hoping one day a better mmo will come along. When you would rather do 20 man Naxx instead of getting 5 pugs, because it'd be easier without them, the problem is the players, not the system. I have yet to understand whats hard about pressing 12345 a d and sometimes w. If some noob could explain i'd be at peace inside, finally
I don't see this scenario as a bad thing, yes it would suck for those who are a reroll and trying to gear up quick, but that is what guilds are for.
I did everything possible to be the best rogue/paladin I could and every so often we get a new guildie who wants to join in and play with the big boys and girls without having completed any Heroics or at least the ones he needs to get into a basic 25-man raid. Why should I carry a guild member who won't put in the time to improve their character? However, for good guilds this is a rarity.
Pugs are brutal and usually when I see chat asking for pug members with stats/achievements, it is because someone key (healer/tank) didn't show up and they decided to pug that spot that week. True pug raids usually just try to get whoever they can, but in the rare case they get overwhelmed with requests to go, than they pull out the stat/achievements card.
A good rule of thumb, don't pug at the beginning of the reboot, because those are usually the people who never get a chance to raid and aren't expecting to raid that week. Later in the week (Sunday/Monday) are usually for those who missed their regular raid spot and are just looking to get in some raid time that week for the tokens or whatever.
I Reject your Reality and Substitute it with My Own!
Hate to say this but WoW has not been social MMO for a few years now. It was never the gear replacing that made me leave the game it was the fact it had gotten way to easy which made it no longer a social game. Want gear on par with highest Tier raiding gear just go to Arena we give you the same thing but the added bonus has changed slightly. They should have kept the old Honor System and 40 man raids that is what set apart the lazy ones from the gamer because then you worked for something and felt like you achieved something.
I played WoW Pre-TBC for a year and a half and enjoyed every moment of it after TBC released I played for a bit but it had gotten to easy and boring real fast.
Oh and another thing a true guild would help someone get on par not just say lolnogtfowithnoachievements. But again that's what makes this game no longer social.
The gap between the performance of someone who knows how to play and someone who doesn't is simply too large. Knowledgable players can easily outperform noobs by a margin of 2:1. And that's assuming they start with similar gear - in practice the knowledgeable people gear up faster and end up with an even larger advantage. Combine that with the current culture of hardly bothering to group for anything before endgame (and hence a lot of people who don't know how to play), and you end up with a large pool of players at level 80 who are effectively useless.
The elitist culture that many outsiders see, is merely the result of knowledgeable players trying to protect themselves from this dead weight. Asking for achievements is one way of doing that - but it's a pretty crude method. The advantage it has it that it's quick - you don't have to inspect someone in the armoury, or give them a Q&A about their class or anything like that. So I can understand why people use it. But even if achievements were completely removed from the game, people would find some other way to protect themselves from the dead weight - because that's absolutely necessary to get anything done.
In order to make a friendler, more open game, what really needs to happen is a lessening of the advantage knowledge gives. There should still, of course, be some advantage to going to Elitist Jerks, playing around with spreadsheets etc. But the game should still be more playable at lower knowledge levels.
For example, consider what would happen if the following change was added to the game.
Whenever anyone retrained, they would be given the option to choose from several pre-built talent specs - for example, a warlock would be given the option:
a) Spend the talent points yourself
b) Choose an affliction build. This uses your damage over time spells to do most of your damage
c) Choose a felguard build. This allows you to summon a poweful demon
d) Choose a destruction build. This uses fire spells and chaos bolts to do damage
Perhaps if someone chose (b) they would be given very basic play advice - such as "keep all your DOTs and haunt on the target and use shadow bolts whenever you have spare time".
This would give an easy option for people who didn't know better, and would lessen the amount of room people have to go wrong. For example, you might not ever see those really stupid talent tree choices that place all the points in a single tree.
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I suspect that the WoW Dev's knew *exactly* how the armory and achievements would be used. That being, to separate those who have lives(and thus limited time) and those who don't. ^^ I've been in WoW since late beta. Its a good game all the way to level cap. Then as you mentioned, its raiding, heroics, and PvP. I currently have two 80s(Pally and deathknight) a level 71 warrior and a level 70 rogue.
The pally and deathknight have a mix of crafted blues and a few epics. Both have epic weapons(one from the Stormwind AT QM, the other crafted). As one fellow mentioned, I fill in when no one else is available, and anything I happen to get would have ended up sharded anyway. I pretty much solo'ed my way to 80 with both of them, so I've missed most of the dungeons along the way. Its my own fault, as I play at odd times, and I'm not very social.
My guild tolerates me because I've been in for years, and I help people with their alts and help the guild when I can. Bottom line, its about what one wants out of the game. Its a hobby to me, not a second job or the focus of my life.
Impressive writing, i think your main idea is true. As a game designer myself it made me think alot about the social context.
Good job
If you watch The Karate Kid backwards it's about this karate champ that just kinda slowly becomes a pussy and ends up moving back to Jersey
"tolerates" is exactly the point of the article, your guild tolerates you despite you not meeting their standards because you find a niche that they need. If you did not supply that niche would the guild treat you the same?
"Doesn't make the slightest bit of difference if we succeed or fail"?
Wow, no wonder you like solo play in MMOs so much...
yes you can still put a team together and lose and still have fun but why not try to win? If you like failing... well... yeah stick to the solo stuff, I wouldn't want to group with someone who didn't care.
I mean, if I have a choice between my friends and random people for a group I'll always choose my friends, but I guess my friends are other like-minded good players... honestly sounds like you are the last kid picked in kickball trying to justify picking the other losers for your team.
It's the whole "as long as you put in your best effort" and "everyone wins through good sportsmanship" and "everyone deserves a gold star" crap that has infected American society and turned the vast majority of the new generations into self-centered attention seeking consumer driven little sh!ts with this grand sense of entitlement...
God forbid those of us that actually worked for something and like a little competition and winning actually deserve to enjoy the fruits of our labor.
What else can we hand you?
If your sense of self is so bound up in bits of digital symbolism, I suspect you have greater issues than simply those with "welfare epics". ^^ But you do make a valid point, but you've not taken it to the logical conclusion. WHY are so many, many people such shallow, ignorant, docile, obedient, consumerist sheep? Answer: Because that is what the social/political power system requires in order to continue its existence in its current state. Sure winning matters. But is it ALL that matters? Games are supposed to be about having fun. Sure, winning can be fun. But if I have to exclude people I've known for years because they lack the talent/time/drive to be the "best", you can count me out. I'd rather pick lower level instances that we can all enjoy, than the top level ones that only a select few will ever be good enough to beat.
"tolerates" is exactly the point of the article, your guild tolerates you despite you not meeting their standards because you find a niche that they need. If you did not supply that niche would the guild treat you the same?
Given that I'm hardly one of the guild masters favorite people, I seriously doubt it. ^^ He is one of the best players that I've ever seen in all of my years in WoW. He always has the best gear and achievements. But he also tends to be fair, and since I don't cost the guild anything, he tends to overlook me.
That's sums it about up for me.
Until recently, I had an internet connection that'd reset randomly for 3 minutes at a time, and that made me shun grouping and raiding all the more, since I didn't want to irritate people waiting for me.
Plus, I did the "hard core raider" bit before, I had the 2nd best druid on my EQ1 server for a time, and realized... I'm "working" at playing a game, and I'm not getting paid to do it. That had to stop. So I came back to MMO's casually, and have managed to keep them that way.
Of course, working a job that makes me work a ton keeps my powergaming to a minimum as well.
Why is it developers have to keep adding features to the games when in the end it tends to make them worse?
Even Blizzard is not above this. Achievements are the true anathama of the casual player. Why I don't play Wow anymore and truely pity those that still do.
Blizzard better watch out or a good game is going to come along and steal their thunder.
I see both sides. Nothing is worse than grouping with a total idiot. However, just because they are a total idiot doesn't mean they haven't ran the dungeon. After all, we are talking about MMOs. They aren't that mentally challenging.
I think its kinda easy to get that initial achievement. Join a half competent guild. Do a dungeon. Bingo you have the achievement.
I will admit I don't have an 80 in WoW, so it may not be that simple. However, I think it is.
The worst part of WoW is kids forget this is a game, sucks when you come on the game just to play and the kids shoot you down cuz you dont have gear or experience, kids are the people that make wow, not fun to paly sometimes.
haven't read every post, so maybe I am repeating, but...
"Leveling the game, now more of an annoyance than anything else"... that phrase is the problem, because the writer forgot to PLAY the game.
I never worry about any of the gear, except to notice I found or bought or earned something cool, and saying, "oh that's nice."
I never worry about what accomplishments other players have, I simply play the game with them if they are fun to play with, and don't if they are not.
I join guilds not for some kind of replacement sense of belonging and accomplishment, but because I get to help and be helped when it makes sense to do so.
I have only rarely found the game to be a grind, and when I do, I switch characters or create a new one. Or I take a break from the "progression" and play differently: soloing lower level instances to see where the limit of my abilities are. Intentionally playing "wrong," using aspects of the character that make it weaker but new again. Finding new combinations of PUG's to go against named or elite mobs, seeing what it takes from each party member to pull off a tough kill.
I really think that people miss the appeal of the game when they start crunching numbers - or maybe that's what's fun to them, but it seems to make a whole lot of people real cranky. It's fun because it's a polished, well-designed adventure with a lot of variety of classes and abilities.
The whole thing reminds me of the comic who recently observed that 15 years ago having internet at all was amazing. Now, 15 minutes after the very first time people can use it on a plane, someone experiences a temporary lag or loss of service, and they say, "this is bullshit!" WoW is astounding, and so are many of these games each in their own way. They are massive accomplishments simply in being playable and available. Enjoy.
Good article
Achievements are either the bane for ALL players or uselessness for epeen, which can be derived in skill anyway...
Achievement raiding was the final straw that led me to quit. Watching a top end guild that could clear every dungeon with a perfect group in less than 2 hours, wipe for hours & hours to earn a title or a mount...disgusted me. Having to raid 3-4 nights a week, every week, with insane amounts of QQ if you had anything RL to do - wanes on the soul; with a full time job, coming home and having hours of free time beyond a quick raid, was always a more viable option (at least for me)....dashed in hopes of another mount to add to the stack or another frivilous title. Also, add the random server crashes, latency issues, failing macros, and various things that always pop up may or may not effect the success of a fight, but may destroy hours of work on an achievement. Over time achievements become part of the grind, but the value they add...is nothing to the work required (imo).
Fortunately for me, achievements meant absolutely nothing. A fully gemmed and enchanted MT is an ominous figure and always ready to tank anything & everything, but nontheless I think a good points were made in the article & in replies. When Lich King came out, running new 80 instances in tier 6...being crushed like a maniac, trying to stack every ounce of gemmed defense I could...made things fun.
Wiping in an instance and pugging have earned a connotation I don't think is fair overall. Any person who truely enjoys raiding, does not enjoy wiping (of course) but the key is progression & improvement. If your raid is getting better and people are learning (new raiders included), then its not a big deal and not "woe is the world". Wiping for achievements however...and then valuing people if they grinded time earning those achievements, to me is a sad state of affairs.
I saw great promise in clearing raids quick and using achievements as a sidebar...but instead - it taxes raids, adding more issues than anything of value, as achievements mean little and prove nothing. Best of luck to anyway raiding still, I -do not- envy you and I hope new devs never use achievements so lamely again.
And in the end, its just more drama to deal with on top of the cache of drama that top guilds have to deal with anyway. Also remember, Achievements are *not* content - so lets hope that future quality dev time is being displaced to their other titles, including their new mmo in the works (whatever it may be). But I'm sure everyone will love grinding 5 months of the same raid over & over - nothing to look forward but a raid to be cleared in a month or 2 (speaking to the raid-only folks of course), good times
Tis a shame, I sure do miss tanking
"I just wonder if there is a better system out there which is designed to help newer players who are geared properly get into raids for the first time. The guild system can work in this way but most elite guilds only recruit top players, they don’t want noobs. Yet, why not offer rewards for guilds who recruit and help new players on raids, achievements, and gear etc. Imagine a system where your guild can gain access to top epic loot by simply helping out new players."
Fail. You totally ignore the fact that the source of the problem are the player themselves, and those investing time in the game are simply using whatever they can as a way of shielding themselves from wasting it, thus protecting their investment (monthly fee).
You know a raid can suck up to 4 hours. What if at the end of it you gained absolutely NOTHING and that's because the game is so tightly balanced around perfection that a couple of noobs in the group make it a complete wreck?
Furthermore, the solution wouldn't help the noobs at all, those guilds would just buy new accounts, powerlevel the toons, slash-follow a healer/caster in a raid and acquire the loot without helping a single new player. If it can be done, you can bet your arse they'll do it.
Want to blame someone? Blame blizzard that truly doesn't prepare the new player for what's ahead. Leveling a character from 1 to 80 cannot even be considered as low as a tutorial, since you know squat about raid tactics and mechanics. Want to blame someone? Blame blizzard for not tuning the encounters around, say, 18 skilled people out of 25.
But of course, if the game were that easy to play people would quit dripping in boredom 3 months after an expansion pack. Just face it, the learning curve in WoW is the most steep and frustrating one ever, and those who made it to the flatlands aren't wiling to give up their epeen status for you to gaze on the Azerothians from their heights in just 3/4 months of play time. Aren't they claiming the "Easy to play, hard to master" motto since the dawn of their titles?
That is what makes the game survive, you all need to gaze on those few up top achieving, wannabeing all the way; you still need to be frantically trying to go where no noob has gone before. Without that, wow would already be long dead, 'cause the amount of repetitiveness in it warrants no longevity, despite the new content they keep adding.
Does it benefit the noob? No. Does it benefit the veteran/pro player? No. (They sooner or later need fresh blood if their guilds want to go on). It benefits Blizzard and it won't forever, but for long enough to become financially as heavy as a small independent country.
I'm afraid that while your concerns are true, the solution to this is the same that every successful guild/group/individual has had to end up to: Find a group of like-minded, determined people, research information, plan tactics and practice till you're disgusted about the game as much as if it were the worst job ever, but sedate that feeling with the achievements and earned social status.
I just don't see that as the problem, as much as the deviation that it exposes in modern society. The results of the experiment will be food for thoughts for decades to come.
Bottomline: It's not a consumer product that you buy, unwrap and enjoy out of the box. Nothing can be "FUN" forever. Blizzard understood that and put extremely hard to achieve goals in the game, so to create a leading edge and a mass of followers to that edge. If there weren't forums to discuss these matters you'd still be grinding your teeth wondering "WTF!?", while Blizzard cashes on you. People whine about it, find nothing or little fun in it, but still pay their subscription.
It's good to be Blizzard these days..
I found this advice to be spot on, but it is also why I don't raid any more.
You see, I used to work in a high level competitive sales job. We were hammered daily about meeting goals and expectations. These expectations were very similar in context to the expectations posted by johnspartan here.
If you replace the words "Raid, Gear, Achievements, etc" with "Sales, Position, and Performance, etc" this write up is almost a verbatum list of the requirements and expectations for that job. Potential earnings? Upto six figures and I made 75K.
The point is, if I am going to be held to such standards like those listed above, as many guilds require, I may as well meet them where it matters: Real Life. It least then, I get something tangible, like a paycheck.
I used to raid, and realized this, and now I just can't do it. I just can't take such "elitism" in a GAME seriously enough, so I choose not to rub elbows with such players. It's all cool, for they have the epics, and I have the paycheck.
Elitists like this guy is probably a big reason why the OP wrote the article. Arrogant players who think that their experience in a pixelated environment makes them a better person than someone else. Specificly pointing out the comment about his #5 comment, that's as arrogant as they come...Impress me early he says, laughable at best. If anything, other players should be offering to guide others through the raids that haven't and that need to learn the raids, not be self-centered jerks about it.
Blizzard probably didn't know how the system would be handled down the road like one of the other posters said, BUT now that that system has been in place for a couple years now they have had plenty of time to recognize and correct the oversight which they haven't. It's not just WoW that is infected with the attitude but Lotro is becoming the same way, partly because some of the WoW raiders got bored failing or getting denied by raids in WoW so they went to Lotro to pull the same elitist mentality. I have played Lotro since alpha, it was never as bad as it is now ever since MoM came out. I have great raid gear and max lvl toons in both mmo's but I did it by grouping with friends who helped me learn the raids and in turn I help others when I can.
I keep note of jerks like the above poster I quoted and if those guys go LFG they get denied and if they happen to ask me to their group, I decline. I play by my own terms, not theirs.
Yea, because real adults get on message boards to cry about kids stopping them from enjoyng a game.
only a year late.
"I'm playing to have have fun... to goof around and play games with others. That's why I'm playing a multiplayer online game. This is not a career for me (playing, that is) and it's of little priority in the grand scheme of things."
It's unfortunate that a video game plays such a large factor in some people lives that they have to take things so seriously. I don't care what happens as long as I have fun. I could have enjoyed a night of getting my butt handed to me in a large scale pvp raid in the middle of nowhere, or maybe getting wiped a few times during a run, or perhaps we cleared something on the first shot.
It is my OPINION that if a person is so emotionally attached to a video game they need to seek out other sources or social interaction of mean of entertainment.
The achievement system was a good idea but is just abused in WOW but was going to happen with the mindset of the gear oriented game's player base (at least some of them).
"Doesn't make the slightest bit of difference if we succeed or fail"?
Wow, no wonder you like solo play in MMOs so much...
yes you can still put a team together and lose and still have fun but why not try to win? If you like failing... well... yeah stick to the solo stuff, I wouldn't want to group with someone who didn't care.
I mean, if I have a choice between my friends and random people for a group I'll always choose my friends, but I guess my friends are other like-minded good players... honestly sounds like you are the last kid picked in kickball trying to justify picking the other losers for your team.
It's the whole "as long as you put in your best effort" and "everyone wins through good sportsmanship" and "everyone deserves a gold star" crap that has infected American society and turned the vast majority of the new generations into self-centered attention seeking consumer driven little sh!ts with this grand sense of entitlement...
God forbid those of us that actually worked for something and like a little competition and winning actually deserve to enjoy the fruits of our labor.
What else can we hand you?
Aside from the fact that I never said I wasn't playing to try to succeed or win...
This is the part that you forced grouping guys refuse to admit about your own gameplay. You are not playing to socialize or interact. Your goal is the loot. Other people are a necessity for you to obtain your loot. You will castigate people who like to have the option of solo play for being anti-social because they will group with their friends and family but not YOU. At the same time, your entire gameplay is about the most anti-social possible - your concern is with bringing a set of the appropriate stats and skills with you to make sure you get your item. This is reinforced in the fact that you infer above those with a casual attitude towards playing a vidoe game are "the losers" or that they must've been "picked last for the kickball team." You are playing the MMO to win. There's nothing wrong with that.
I'm playing to have have fun... to goof around and play games with others. That's why I'm playing a multiplayer online game. This is not a career for me (playing, that is) and it's of little priority in the grand scheme of things. That someone spec'd the 'wrong' skillset or that they haven't achieved tier whatever of Caverns of Goopnarp in Superduper Mode makes no difference to me. If the person is fun to chat with or entertaining then I'll just have a blast playing for as far as we can get into the dungeon we are headed to. That interaction is worth much more to me than walking around with Eiffel Towers on my shoulders.
And I'm not sure where you got that I wanted anything handed to me or that I felt everyone deserved a gold star or whatever gibberish you started spouting towards the end of that rant of yours. So, you can toss all the insults and snide remarks at me all you want. I enjoy the way I play and I enjoy the company of the people that I meet.
Sorry it upsets you so.
Yeah ive never understood the raid guild mentality myself. Of course everyone wants to kill the boss and get the loot (if the raid leader so designates it ) but not killing the boss and getting the loot isnt the worst thing that will happen in your life. If it is you are very fortunate.
This is a rather tricky thing. On one hand it is nice to know something about the players you recruit to a raid or group but on the other hand you will probably reject people unfairly and miss out on some good players.
It is kinda the same problem as trying to get a job just after school, you need experience to get a job but you can't get any unless you have a job.
I rather not have catch 22s like that in a game, Some things should point out that a character have done tough things in the past or not but I think this is just too much. I think Blizzard took something that could have been a good idea and took it too far.
You weren't around for TBC and the horribly nerfed Karazhan huh? :P
I ran into plenty of groups who wanted to run Karazhan, and would kick you if you had anything below The Eye/SSC, and once the sunwell came out, that requirement rose to Black Temple+ gear only. I wasn't in a bunch of greens, nope. I worked my arse off doing heroics and grinding reps just to get gear. So I wouldn't be surprised if several PUGs running naxx-10 require you to have cleared 10-man Alganon in only your knickers.
Hell. I remember before Lich King came out and the achievement system wasn't even a week old, that guilds already started requiring a certain amount. One in particular had the bare minimum set to 3.5-4k, and every time someone questioned it, they'd have more than enough players to bury C'thun spam and whisper "Rofl fckin nub l2p". Safe to say, I had a good chunk of players enter my "ignore list" that day simply because I asked if that was even possible to get 3.5k.
If it isn't one way for a bunch of p**cks to keep you out, it'll always be another. And when I heard about the achievement system, I laughed. Because I knew this crap would happen. The ONLY good thing about judging someone based on their achieves, is that many can be gotten with little work, and isn't, I'll repeat, ISN'T a measure of skill. Just a measure of people you manage to group with. Achievements are also character specific, so god forbid you run across one of this A-hole pugs on an alt you just geared up, they won't believe you.
And Loke, I agree with that analogy. Been trying to get a job ever since I hit 16, 4 years later, nothing still. Doesn't help that my state's practically a blackhole when it comes to jobs. Hell, a place I've gone to ever since it opened (about 10 years) has only hired 2-3 new people in that span of 4 years, and each one could be outsmarted by a bunch of rocks in a burlap sack...
And honestly? I don't feel like having to deal with that in real life, and in a game.
you're kidding, right? glad I dont play this thing.
When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.
No worries, i quit WoW because i couldn't find enough competant players on at the same time, i had a list of 50, and never could see them all on, so i just quit, hoping one day a better mmo will come along. When you would rather do 20 man Naxx instead of getting 5 pugs, because it'd be easier without them, the problem is the players, not the system. I have yet to understand whats hard about pressing 12345 a d and sometimes w. If some noob could explain i'd be at peace inside, finally
I don't see this scenario as a bad thing, yes it would suck for those who are a reroll and trying to gear up quick, but that is what guilds are for.
I did everything possible to be the best rogue/paladin I could and every so often we get a new guildie who wants to join in and play with the big boys and girls without having completed any Heroics or at least the ones he needs to get into a basic 25-man raid. Why should I carry a guild member who won't put in the time to improve their character? However, for good guilds this is a rarity.
Pugs are brutal and usually when I see chat asking for pug members with stats/achievements, it is because someone key (healer/tank) didn't show up and they decided to pug that spot that week. True pug raids usually just try to get whoever they can, but in the rare case they get overwhelmed with requests to go, than they pull out the stat/achievements card.
A good rule of thumb, don't pug at the beginning of the reboot, because those are usually the people who never get a chance to raid and aren't expecting to raid that week. Later in the week (Sunday/Monday) are usually for those who missed their regular raid spot and are just looking to get in some raid time that week for the tokens or whatever.
I Reject your Reality and Substitute it with My Own!
Hate to say this but WoW has not been social MMO for a few years now. It was never the gear replacing that made me leave the game it was the fact it had gotten way to easy which made it no longer a social game. Want gear on par with highest Tier raiding gear just go to Arena we give you the same thing but the added bonus has changed slightly. They should have kept the old Honor System and 40 man raids that is what set apart the lazy ones from the gamer because then you worked for something and felt like you achieved something.
I played WoW Pre-TBC for a year and a half and enjoyed every moment of it after TBC released I played for a bit but it had gotten to easy and boring real fast.
Oh and another thing a true guild would help someone get on par not just say lolnogtfowithnoachievements. But again that's what makes this game no longer social.
It comes down to the design of the game.
The gap between the performance of someone who knows how to play and someone who doesn't is simply too large. Knowledgable players can easily outperform noobs by a margin of 2:1. And that's assuming they start with similar gear - in practice the knowledgeable people gear up faster and end up with an even larger advantage. Combine that with the current culture of hardly bothering to group for anything before endgame (and hence a lot of people who don't know how to play), and you end up with a large pool of players at level 80 who are effectively useless.
The elitist culture that many outsiders see, is merely the result of knowledgeable players trying to protect themselves from this dead weight. Asking for achievements is one way of doing that - but it's a pretty crude method. The advantage it has it that it's quick - you don't have to inspect someone in the armoury, or give them a Q&A about their class or anything like that. So I can understand why people use it. But even if achievements were completely removed from the game, people would find some other way to protect themselves from the dead weight - because that's absolutely necessary to get anything done.
In order to make a friendler, more open game, what really needs to happen is a lessening of the advantage knowledge gives. There should still, of course, be some advantage to going to Elitist Jerks, playing around with spreadsheets etc. But the game should still be more playable at lower knowledge levels.
For example, consider what would happen if the following change was added to the game.
Whenever anyone retrained, they would be given the option to choose from several pre-built talent specs - for example, a warlock would be given the option:
a) Spend the talent points yourself
b) Choose an affliction build. This uses your damage over time spells to do most of your damage
c) Choose a felguard build. This allows you to summon a poweful demon
d) Choose a destruction build. This uses fire spells and chaos bolts to do damage
Perhaps if someone chose (b) they would be given very basic play advice - such as "keep all your DOTs and haunt on the target and use shadow bolts whenever you have spare time".
This would give an easy option for people who didn't know better, and would lessen the amount of room people have to go wrong. For example, you might not ever see those really stupid talent tree choices that place all the points in a single tree.
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