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What is missing in today's MMO's? i.e. WoW is a cheat code
Whibbo
Member Posts: 49
I have kids and they like "cheat codes" and it seems this mentality has permeated games. Everyone wants a cheat code to get through things as fast as possible so they can stand on top of the mountain and say "look at me!" WoW is like a big MMO cheat code. And what's worse, they spawn children in the form of copycat MMO's.
I often wonder if I was so enthralled with EQ1 because it was my first MMO but I don't think that's quite it. I felt part of the world of Norrath and I wanted to explore it. I remember talking to a guildmate and he had planned that if he got a certain amount of experience per day, he would be level 65 in 2 months...and he was already in his high 50's. Now you could do it in a day if you wanted to. The difficulty and length of time advancing your character made me feel that I had accomplished something. If I can level a toon from 1-40 in a month (most games you can do that actually faster) I feel no attatchment. If I get a level per week, well that's a character I have invested in. If it takes me an hour or 2 to get to the heart of a dungeon and if my party wipes we have to go back in with cheap replacement gear and get our stuff...that's EXCITEMENT! Especially if there is no bind point nearby.
Of course inherent to this is the inevitable time sink, and different death consequences could alleviate it. But the current MMO status is -SUCK-. EVE, yeah good game but I want a mobile walking avatar.
So is this all "pie in the sky" hoping? Am I too old being over 30 now to expect this? Are all MMO companies going to come out with a game that feels like I'm using cheat codes? Do any MMO companies have any desire to make a game that is challenging and balances risk/reward or are they all just trying to make us "feel" good and not hurt our self esteem and let us use RMT if we cant earn something ourselves?
Are there enough folks like me who would pay to play this type of game or do all companies cater to 14 year olds now?
Yes, I am ranting...and sorry....just wish I could find something to play 
Playing EVE online currently. Started MMO's with EQ Velious, played EQ2, DAoC, CoH, AO, SWG (pre NGE), Planetside, DCUO. Played briefly cause I didn't like: WAR, WoW, VG, etc. etc.
Comments
Those days are past and won't return. If you need to grind yourself silly to feel accomplished, I suggest you go back to EQ. The game is still up.
I would much rather experience different content (like different level zones) than grinding the same thing again & again. Have to work everyday for a week to just level does not make a fun game. it is more like a job.
There are a few games out there for us "old timers" ( I am only 27). We are the minority in the MMO genre. We want a challenge, we want to think while playing, we do not want Easy mode.
There are a couple games in the future that will be good for us but at this moment. EQ1 is the only game I know right now that is still fun for me.
Sooner or Later
Those days are past and won't return. If you need to grind yourself silly to feel accomplished, I suggest you go back to EQ. The game is still up.
I would much rather experience different content (like different level zones) than grinding the same thing again & again. Have to work everyday for a week to just level does not make a fun game. it is more like a job.
Getting max level in under a month is does not make a fun game either but that is all we have on the market today. So do not want to have to put forth any effort? You just want everything handed to you?
Effort does not equal time. It never has and it never will. Effort requires thinking, planning and working toward a goal.
In RL. The saying goes. Nothing comes easy or without a price. Same with MMOs. I am sick of games holding my dam hand from start to finish without letting me make and learn from my mistakes.
Sooner or Later
Well, the hardest of hardmodes in Ulduar25 and very soon TOGC aren't exactly easy mode, even if they involve a lot of RNG. As much as I'd really like to see a challenging MMO, it won't happen too soon. MMOs who are based on forced grouping gameplay are a very hard thing to implement, it can easily make the game look boring or buggy and from that, milions of dollars wasted(and hell, you might not even recover the production money if it was badmouthed from start).
Well, the hardest of hardmodes in Ulduar25 and very soon TOGC aren't exactly easy mode, even if they involve a lot of RNG. As much as I'd really like to see a challenging MMO, it won't happen too soon. MMOs who were based on forced grouping gameplay are a very hard thing to implement, it can easily make the game look boring or buggy and from that, milions of dollars wasted.
Yes WoW has some hard content but it is all raid content with only a small group of players working towards them and they are mostly people from my camp. The " I want a Challenge " camp.
WoW leveling = easy mode... no risks, all reward, no effort or thinking involved, that is what I mean by easy mode.
Sooner or Later
Well, the hardest of hardmodes in Ulduar25 and very soon TOGC aren't exactly easy mode, even if they involve a lot of RNG. As much as I'd really like to see a challenging MMO, it won't happen too soon. MMOs who were based on forced grouping gameplay are a very hard thing to implement, it can easily make the game look boring or buggy and from that, milions of dollars wasted.
Yes WoW has some hard content but it is all raid content with only a small group of players working towards them and they are mostly people from my camp. The " I want a Challenge " camp.
WoW leveling = easy mode... no risks, all reward, no effort or thinking involved, that is what I mean by easy mode.
Well, look at the last part of what I said. MMO market is already unstable enough and I guess devs simply aspire to WoW's sub numbers although It was proven that it won't happen. Hopefully, we will see some innovation but I doubt it.
I absolutely do not want a grindfest, but you know what, I dont mind it occasionally. Maybe I have to go kill 100 spiders to get silk....that doesn't bother me if I'm a crafter and there's a good reward for it. Too much of it, yes. I would say I'm a casual veteran and no I don't want to have to work for a week playing 6 hours a night to level either. Maybe I could get a level in a weekend.
There are maps, quest waypoints, and a bunch of other slop in game right from the start....
Not all bad mind you, but the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. Too much give away at the start. And death consequences? Let's just say in some games it's easier to just die and get the free trip back to town.
The consensus I seem to be getting is this: times have changed, get used to it.
I don't want to get used to it lol. I've been craving a new setting for years.
So what is in the works? Earthrise, CCP's World of Darkness but that's a long way out, anything else? Am I one of those gamers that would like Darkfall? I'm intrigued by all the Darkfall haters and am thinking that since so many people hate it, maybe it's actually good....Suggestions?
Playing EVE online currently. Started MMO's with EQ Velious, played EQ2, DAoC, CoH, AO, SWG (pre NGE), Planetside, DCUO. Played briefly cause I didn't like: WAR, WoW, VG, etc. etc.
Who really cares? Pick the game(s) you like and play them. Analyzing the rest is....useless.
This is entertainment, after all?
Sure, the current MMO market is a joke. I agree. But I have fun playing WoW and EvE. I'm not complaining.
Well, that's exactly my point..there are no games I like. I dropped my subs to everything. You are right this is entertainment, but I like my MMO fix, and there isn't one right now.
I guess my whole point was kind of a factfinding mission to find out if I need to give up on finding a new MMO or not, or just leave it to all the "cheat code" types who need everything handed to them so they don't "feel" bad and get their self esteem hurt.
Not that everyone who plays an MMO is like this, just that it seems that MMO companies think that is what everyone wants.
Playing EVE online currently. Started MMO's with EQ Velious, played EQ2, DAoC, CoH, AO, SWG (pre NGE), Planetside, DCUO. Played briefly cause I didn't like: WAR, WoW, VG, etc. etc.
To a certain degree, I agree with a lot with what you said. I am an old timer seeing as I was in EQ1 beta
. I have played just about every MMO that has been released since EQ1, and there have been very few situations where I wanted to jump out of my seat to celebrate after an accomplishment like I did in EQ1. Most games are so easy now that when I do accomplish a major milestone, I mumble yay and continue on with whatever I was doing. It doesn't mean much to me because I had to do little or exert minimal effort to accomplish the milestone.
Vanguard was one of the last games I experienced some true exhilaration of accomplishment, and that was mainly in the raids. My guild left Vanguard due to development issues (but that is for another thread) and we moved to WoW. I new this was a mistake from my standpoint, but they were my guild and friends, so off I went. I made max level in less than a month. We were doing 10 man raids in 5 weeks. Completed all the 10 man raids in less than 2 months and were halfway through 25 man raids when Ulduar was released. I left about this time, but my guild has already almost completed 10 man Ulduar and are halfway through 25 man Ulduar. For me, this is bad design. That is my opinion, so don't get your panties in a wad. I never felt any form of accomplishment in WoW, because nothing required effort. I mean real effort. Dedication.
One area I see MMOs moving in the wrong direction is button pushing over player action. What I mean by this is, outcome of fights are based more so on what combination of buttons you push on your tray than on what you do with your character in the game. EQ1 was a challenging game because you as a group had to figure out how to use your character the right way to avoid defeat with few buttons to push. Flipping bosses, stunning before a heal goes off, draining mana on a boss, etc. are just a few examples. But these strategies were NOT scripts you had to follow to win. In EQ1, strategies were a well kept secret, so guilds had to figure out their own way to win, so the same Boss mob could be killed in multiple different ways. That is what made EQ1 so much fun. You had to use your head and discover a strategy and follow it. In WoW, all we had to was figure out the script of the Boss, and boom! farm mode. In EQ or even Vanguard to a certain extent, this wasn't the case. Fengrot in Vanguard, was always a huge challenge every attempt, because we didn't always win (before level increase). Heck, only a few times were we successful on the first attempt no matter how many times we killed him. This made the fight a fun experience every time.
I am hoping sometime soon, a development crew will get away from buttom smashing and more creative in interaction of character and game world during fights. Like setting up high ground for advantage, mob placement, certain skills necessary at certain times, etc. And one other note, those of you who have been playing since EQ1, have you noticed the lack of commmunication with your group and guild during fights since leaving EQ? Hard to type words when you have to keep hitting skill buttons. Communication is taken a serious hit with the new breed of games and their mechanics. Yes, we have Ventrilo, but that has limitations to who you are sharing it with and doesn't carry zone wide. I miss those Guk runs and having verbal insults battles with my enchanter while fighting
I really have never understood why some people want to grind so much... Personally I find it unbearably tedious and boring.
New content is a good thing. No one should be required to do the same thing over and over again for months to get to the next level. That just means that the designers were too lazy to implement enough interesting content and instead create artificial barriers (ie steep level grinds) to prevent you from hitting the high levels quickly.
And I have to say that I cannot disagree more with the assertion that long level grinds like EQ = challenge. That is not true... it is just TIME. Unless of course you mean that the challenge lies in forcing yourself to perform boring repetitive tasks for huge long periods of time.
And before anyone asks... yes, I have played most MMORPGs including those with long level grinds. When the genre was new, I had the patience to play the super grindy games. Now that I have done it 100 times, its not so fun anymore. I doubt I'm alone...
Well, if it makes you feel any better I completely agree with you. Undoubtedly we are in the minority, but I still believe there's enough of a market for us to have good reason to make challenging games again. We just need a dev with some balls and the ability to realize that people want freedom and challenges without the limitations placed on mmos by today's developers. So much time gets spent making the next end-game dungeon or fighting the supposedly game-destroying gold sellers that the games don't get developed anymore. They just stagnate.
How long it takes to gain a level has no bearing what so ever with it being a grind or not. What makes it a grind is the fact you are not enjoying yourself. Great effort and enjoyment are not mutually exclusive, which is what people too many times seem to attribute. If it took a 2 weeks to gain a level, would it make any difference as long as you were enjoying yourself during the process? I would hope not. It wouldn't bother me a bit if it took me 2 years to get max level as long as the process of getting max level was enjoyable each and every day and there was plenty of activities during that 2 years.
As far as I am aware, no one has ever said the challenge of EQ was level grinding. Gaining levels can be accomplished with the base minimum of effort. The challenge of EQ was figuring out how to win the fights and executing them, attaining all your objectives, and surpassing the games goals.
You're far from alone. However, if everyone could eat cheeseburgers every day most people would do it. Why, because they "want" to. Sometimes what you want is not what's best for you. Your style of gameplay results in short-lived victories that cannot compare with the ultimately more satisfying thrill of long-term achievements. These achievements need not relate to just your character and the level "grind". There's so many other ways to provide long-term achievement outside of raiding and grinding quill rats for five days straight. It's all about how the developer sets the stage and the freedom allowed in the game world.
The fact of the matter is that the mmorpg in its orginal form is nearly dead. Mmos nowadays are just online games with little to no long term investment. It is only a matter of time until you get bored of your ezmode mmo and realize there's no longer any games for you to play when you're ready for the next level. Well, that is all except eve. However, despite my rant, perhaps I really can't blame people like you. Perhaps it's more the developers who deserve the blame, because they simply cannot make a proper sandbox / themepark hybrid on par with wow to save their life. Until the developers pull their heads out of the sand (and their minds out of the dream of taking a slice of wow's pie), we'll just be stuck with more wow clones.
Those days are past and won't return. If you need to grind yourself silly to feel accomplished, I suggest you go back to EQ. The game is still up.
I would much rather experience different content (like different level zones) than grinding the same thing again & again. Have to work everyday for a week to just level does not make a fun game. it is more like a job.
Getting max level in under a month is does not make a fun game either but that is all we have on the market today. So do not want to have to put forth any effort? You just want everything handed to you?
Effort does not equal time. It never has and it never will. Effort requires thinking, planning and working toward a goal.
In RL. The saying goes. Nothing comes easy or without a price. Same with MMOs. I am sick of games holding my dam hand from start to finish without letting me make and learn from my mistakes.
A month of questing for levels does not sound like "everything handed to you". Plus, I think WOW will take like at least something like 10 days play to level to 80 (without professions & stuff). That is 240 hrs & if you play 3 hrs a day, that is 80 days .. almost 3 months. That is a significant chunk of anyone's time.
Plus, that is what most people like. If you don't like it, you don't have to play. There are enough players.
Well, the hardest of hardmodes in Ulduar25 and very soon TOGC aren't exactly easy mode, even if they involve a lot of RNG. As much as I'd really like to see a challenging MMO, it won't happen too soon. MMOs who were based on forced grouping gameplay are a very hard thing to implement, it can easily make the game look boring or buggy and from that, milions of dollars wasted.
Yes WoW has some hard content but it is all raid content with only a small group of players working towards them and they are mostly people from my camp. The " I want a Challenge " camp.
WoW leveling = easy mode... no risks, all reward, no effort or thinking involved, that is what I mean by easy mode.
That answers your question of why MMOs are moving towards the easy direction. In fact, if it is not for the invention of "hard modes", Blizzard would make everything easy so that more people can see content.
And I am 100% for it. It is never about challenge. It is about feeling good, getting rewarding and getting the illusion of achievements. Remember, MMORPGs are games, entertainment.
The problem is what I have stated many times..
the games haven't changed... the players have.
I've been playing WoW again for about 2 months.. guess what level I am? I must be 80 right?
Nope.. I'm a grand ol 27 mage. I've got more honorable kills than most people 40 levels higher than me, I have more achievements than half of them, and my crafting professions and factions are maxed for my level, and I STILL have stuff to do.
Back in the day, people didn't play with the mentality of "get to cap as fast as possible". They enjoyed the content, and explored and took it all in stride. You weren't grinding, or questing.. you were adventuring.. and in those days you might not even complete any "content" but you had fun, and enjoyed the time because of other factors.
EQ wasn't hard, and no MMO has been... ever. Time consuming? Yes.. indeed. These games are like a way for most of us to be someone else for a few hrs and let all the worries and stress of real life go for a bit. I don't need to be "stressed out" in a game, or because of a game. Sure, make it challenging.. but I don't need a game that feels like a job. I already have a job.
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Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
The fact of the matter is that the mmorpg in its orginal form is nearly dead. Mmos nowadays are just online games with little to no long term investment. It is only a matter of time until you get bored of your ezmode mmo and realize there's no longer any games for you to play when you're ready for the next level. Well, that is all except eve. However, despite my rant, perhaps I really can't blame people like you. Perhaps it's more the developers who deserve the blame, because they simply cannot make a proper sandbox / themepark hybrid on par with wow to save their life. Until the developers pull their heads out of the sand (and their minds out of the dream of taking a slice of wow's pie), we'll just be stuck with more wow clones.
Long term investment?? You are kidding me. We are talking games here, right? I have already played WOW for >1.5 years .. that is phenomenal for ONE game to be played that long (EQ lasted one year), comparing to SP shooters that will last 2-3 weeks.
And it is SILLY to worry about no new games to play. There are tons of games (MMO or not) being made every year.
In fact, I think I should cut down on my MMO time, and experience more different kinds of SP games.
I agree with the poster above... WoW and that still involve an investment on the same scale as older MMOs. The thing is, thanks in large part to WoW (i'm giving WoW a compliment here
) MMOs in general have gotten a larger fanbase and became more mainstream. Which is not a bad thing, it's a great thing for gaming companies.. which leads to more content, more MMOs ect.
But yeah, while there is more difficult MMOs than WoW, WoW has done a lot of things right and perhaps the reason it's not more difficult is because it found the right level of difficulty to cater to the masses. All of this is a good thing btw even if I wish for something slightly different than that.
Plus that it has DIFFERENT LEVELS of difficulty for the same content so it ensures most people see it. That is a brilliant move. It is just not good design anymore to lock 99% of your player base out of expensive content.
You don't think playing 3 hours a day for a culmination of 3 months to attain 80 levels is not too simplistic? I mean the levels are a symbolic representation of training yourself into a honed and well skilled fighter ready to battle the greatest threats the world has to offer? That can be accomplished in three months?
To reach such an objective should have some semblance of realism in the sense that hard work and dedication are required. Obviously a game can't require 20 years, but some form dedication is required for a feeling of achievement. The greatest successes in life only come from hard work and dedication. The is what generates pride. The recent crop of games fail to generate this sense of pride from success.
I'm not saying there can't be games like WoW, where instant gratification is the norm, but there needs to be games where hard work, time commitment and effort in an enjoyable environment are a necessity for success.
You don't think playing 3 hours a day for a culmination of 3 months to attain 80 levels is not too simplistic? I mean the levels are a symbolic representation of training yourself into a honed and well skilled fighter ready to battle the greatest threats the world has to offer? That can be accomplished in three months?
To reach such an objective should have some semblance of realism in the sense that hard work and dedication are required. Obviously a game can't require 20 years, but some form dedication is required for a feeling of achievement. The greatest successes in life only come from hard work and dedication. The is what generates pride. The recent crop of games fail to generate this sense of pride from success.
I'm not saying there can't be games like WoW, where instant gratification is the norm, but there needs to be games where hard work, time commitment and effort in an enjoyable environment are a necessity for success.
Hard work and dedication? Its a game for gods sake, what in blazes are you talking about? Games are entertainment, not an outlet for self esteem.
You don't think playing 3 hours a day for a culmination of 3 months to attain 80 levels is not too simplistic? I mean the levels are a symbolic representation of training yourself into a honed and well skilled fighter ready to battle the greatest threats the world has to offer? That can be accomplished in three months?
To reach such an objective should have some semblance of realism in the sense that hard work and dedication are required. Obviously a game can't require 20 years, but some form dedication is required for a feeling of achievement. The greatest successes in life only come from hard work and dedication. The is what generates pride. The recent crop of games fail to generate this sense of pride from success.
I'm not saying there can't be games like WoW, where instant gratification is the norm, but there needs to be games where hard work, time commitment and effort in an enjoyable environment are a necessity for success.
Nobody could have said it better.
I grew up playing ice hockey. Dedication and hard work are required to become good in any form. This is true for most sports and most importantly life. Dedication and hard work are the corner stones of how I was raised. How my generation was raised. Hard work and Dedication will get you anything you set your mind too. Believe this.
Sooner or Later
You don't think playing 3 hours a day for a culmination of 3 months to attain 80 levels is not too simplistic? I mean the levels are a symbolic representation of training yourself into a honed and well skilled fighter ready to battle the greatest threats the world has to offer? That can be accomplished in three months?
To reach such an objective should have some semblance of realism in the sense that hard work and dedication are required. Obviously a game can't require 20 years, but some form dedication is required for a feeling of achievement. The greatest successes in life only come from hard work and dedication. The is what generates pride. The recent crop of games fail to generate this sense of pride from success.
I'm not saying there can't be games like WoW, where instant gratification is the norm, but there needs to be games where hard work, time commitment and effort in an enjoyable environment are a necessity for success.
Nobody could have said it better.
I grew up playing ice hockey. Dedication and hard work are required to become good in any form. This is true for most sports and most importantly life. Dedication and hard work are the corner stones of how I was raised. How my generation was raised. Hard work and Dedication will get you anything you set your mind too. Believe this.
Glad you mention a sport. Sport = game. I played Baseball, Basketball and football growing up and I currently do Shaolin Kung Fu 3 nights a week. I did/do all those for fun, but just because it was fun don’t mean you shouldn't give it your all each and every time you do it. Something being a game does not dictate half effort. The old saying is true, the more you put into something, the more you get back. I simply want a game that allows me to do so.
I think that I have to agree with the earlier poster who has said that it's not the games changing, it's the players. I find that people expect more of video games now than they ever have before. Being a fun game to play was only good enough for so long before people began to want more. Began to want MMOs, in particular, to fill real-life voids beyond a lack of things to do for playtime.
Most MMOs that I have seen on the market do not provide you with much challenge on their own, nor do they motivate you to meet challenges - but they all allow you to challenge yourself and motivate yourself to meet the challenges they create. Tanking as a priest in WoW is difficult. It's challenging. It's not how the game is supposed to go at all, but for fun my friends tried to have my priest tank once. It was challenging, we worked hard to figure out how to do it well, and we did it together as a team after figuring out how to meet the challenge and practicing that approach. We learned a different group dynamic solely for the challenge of it.
So if you need challenge, create your own. There are plenty of them to be had if you just think about something you'd like to try to do but never have before because it would be difficult.
Playing: Single-player games
Awaiting: Stargate, Star Trek, assuming the burnout has passed
Retired: WoW, BC, LotRO, DDO, CoH/V, EVE, WotLK, WAR