Ok, apparently my original post somehow got misconstrued to say "hey, I want a game with a horrible grind". No. And as far as the argument to just go back and play EQ...No, after the SoL expansion it lost my interest.
Here is my new functional word....."complicated". That sums up a lot about what I'm looking for. A "complicated" game that has at least some type of learning curve (as I said before EVE is a spaceship, I want a real avatar). Something that will weed out most of the punks but keep the attention of the veteran crowd and attract gamers looking for quality, and keep a semblance of a population.
What I do think is that it's time for a developer to look at the veteran MMO crowd and see what they can do. No matter how you look at it, what is fun for an adult is often not the same think a teenager likes. I can't stand the games my kids play, but I probably would have played them myself when I was their age.
Nor do I want a game to consume my life, and yes I realize these are games. But if I play a game, I want it to have an immersive quality or I feel like it's time wasted. I play chess tournaments and to me a bad MMO is like playing a beginner at chess, I just don't enjoy myself. I like to watch football, I like to read books, I like to go cycling...but I also like to play MMO's. While I can see good games, read a good book and have a nice bike ride...I can't find an MMO that appeals to me anymore.
I am going to try some more, though....I've heard Ryzom batted around, Darkfall (seems like flocks are leaving and getting bad reviews, I'll wait on this one), and Mortal coming up....Earthrise has some appeal as far as the setting goes. Vanguard? Meh, it was ok but nothing innovative, I liked EQ2 better. But it's hard not to be cynical with the slop that's been trotted out for the last 6 or 7 years.
Playing EVE online currently. Started MMO's with EQ Velious, played EQ2, DAoC, CoH, AO, SWG (pre NGE), Planetside, DCUO. Played briefly cause I didn't like: WAR, WoW, VG, etc. etc.
Ok, apparently my original post somehow got misconstrued to say "hey, I want a game with a horrible grind". No. And as far as the argument to just go back and play EQ...No, after the SoL expansion it lost my interest. Here is my new functional word....."complicated". That sums up a lot about what I'm looking for. A "complicated" game that has at least some type of learning curve (as I said before EVE is a spaceship, I want a real avatar). Something that will weed out most of the punks but keep the attention of the veteran crowd and attract gamers looking for quality, and keep a semblance of a population. What I do think is that it's time for a developer to look at the veteran MMO crowd and see what they can do. No matter how you look at it, what is fun for an adult is often not the same think a teenager likes. I can't stand the games my kids play, but I probably would have played them myself when I was their age. Nor do I want a game to consume my life, and yes I realize these are games. But if I play a game, I want it to have an immersive quality or I feel like it's time wasted. I play chess tournaments and to me a bad MMO is like playing a beginner at chess, I just don't enjoy myself. I like to watch football, I like to read books, I like to go cycling...but I also like to play MMO's. While I can see good games, read a good book and have a nice bike ride...I can't find an MMO that appeals to me anymore. I am going to try some more, though....I've heard Ryzom batted around, Darkfall (seems like flocks are leaving and getting bad reviews, I'll wait on this one), and Mortal coming up....Earthrise has some appeal as far as the setting goes. Vanguard? Meh, it was ok but nothing innovative, I liked EQ2 better. But it's hard not to be cynical with the slop that's been trotted out for the last 6 or 7 years.
the reason you won't see companies aiming for this "Veteran" crowd is because people with your view on games are a vast minority. There really is no money to be had.
the reason you won't see companies aiming for this "Veteran" crowd is because people with your view on games are a vast minority. There really is no money to be had.
Maybe so. They would have MY money though.
Playing EVE online currently. Started MMO's with EQ Velious, played EQ2, DAoC, CoH, AO, SWG (pre NGE), Planetside, DCUO. Played briefly cause I didn't like: WAR, WoW, VG, etc. etc.
Ok, apparently my original post somehow got misconstrued to say "hey, I want a game with a horrible grind". No. And as far as the argument to just go back and play EQ...No, after the SoL expansion it lost my interest. Here is my new functional word....."complicated". That sums up a lot about what I'm looking for. A "complicated" game that has at least some type of learning curve (as I said before EVE is a spaceship, I want a real avatar). Something that will weed out most of the punks but keep the attention of the veteran crowd and attract gamers looking for quality, and keep a semblance of a population. What I do think is that it's time for a developer to look at the veteran MMO crowd and see what they can do. No matter how you look at it, what is fun for an adult is often not the same think a teenager likes. I can't stand the games my kids play, but I probably would have played them myself when I was their age. Nor do I want a game to consume my life, and yes I realize these are games. But if I play a game, I want it to have an immersive quality or I feel like it's time wasted. I play chess tournaments and to me a bad MMO is like playing a beginner at chess, I just don't enjoy myself. I like to watch football, I like to read books, I like to go cycling...but I also like to play MMO's. While I can see good games, read a good book and have a nice bike ride...I can't find an MMO that appeals to me anymore. I am going to try some more, though....I've heard Ryzom batted around, Darkfall (seems like flocks are leaving and getting bad reviews, I'll wait on this one), and Mortal coming up....Earthrise has some appeal as far as the setting goes. Vanguard? Meh, it was ok but nothing innovative, I liked EQ2 better. But it's hard not to be cynical with the slop that's been trotted out for the last 6 or 7 years.
so wait for earthrise
Seriously?
Playing EVE online currently. Started MMO's with EQ Velious, played EQ2, DAoC, CoH, AO, SWG (pre NGE), Planetside, DCUO. Played briefly cause I didn't like: WAR, WoW, VG, etc. etc.
raystantzFinal Fantasy XI CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,237
Originally posted by Whibbo
Originally posted by rr2real
Originally posted by Whibbo
Ok, apparently my original post somehow got misconstrued to say "hey, I want a game with a horrible grind". No. And as far as the argument to just go back and play EQ...No, after the SoL expansion it lost my interest. Here is my new functional word....."complicated". That sums up a lot about what I'm looking for. A "complicated" game that has at least some type of learning curve (as I said before EVE is a spaceship, I want a real avatar). Something that will weed out most of the punks but keep the attention of the veteran crowd and attract gamers looking for quality, and keep a semblance of a population. What I do think is that it's time for a developer to look at the veteran MMO crowd and see what they can do. No matter how you look at it, what is fun for an adult is often not the same think a teenager likes. I can't stand the games my kids play, but I probably would have played them myself when I was their age. Nor do I want a game to consume my life, and yes I realize these are games. But if I play a game, I want it to have an immersive quality or I feel like it's time wasted. I play chess tournaments and to me a bad MMO is like playing a beginner at chess, I just don't enjoy myself. I like to watch football, I like to read books, I like to go cycling...but I also like to play MMO's. While I can see good games, read a good book and have a nice bike ride...I can't find an MMO that appeals to me anymore. I am going to try some more, though....I've heard Ryzom batted around, Darkfall (seems like flocks are leaving and getting bad reviews, I'll wait on this one), and Mortal coming up....Earthrise has some appeal as far as the setting goes. Vanguard? Meh, it was ok but nothing innovative, I liked EQ2 better. But it's hard not to be cynical with the slop that's been trotted out for the last 6 or 7 years.
so wait for earthrise
Seriously?
I stopped reading at I liked EQ2 better than Vanguard.
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Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
First, time investment != difficulty. I played Lineage2 and WoW, and I dont think leveling in L2 is harder. It takes forever, yes, but its not really harder. MMOs are all the same, target a mob, spam your skill rotation, rinse and repeat. Its not "hard". Saying "wow is easy because leveling is too quick!" makes no sense. Wow is easy because... wow is easy. Thats it. The leveling speed doesnt matter.
By the way. its retarded to have to grind 24/7 for 5 months to be able to reach endgame content. Even in wow, only a small % of the players are going to see endgame. Think of a mmo that would allow players to reach endgame very quickly. Wouldnt that be more fun? Instead of lvling for 6 months, you could level for 1 month and then have fun with the remaining five months. Isnt that... GOOD for a game? Never understood the need for some players to have an insane grind. Leveling feels like a job to me, the endgame is where the fun starts.
Anyway, OP, its possible for MMOs to be complicated, but they are made "for the masses" and thats why most of them are pretty straight-foward, sadly. Earthrise looks promising... and thats all I can think of.
Well, trying to get to endgame content quickly is exactly what I'm NOT looking for. I mean, seriously, what's the difference if you are level 40 in a scary dungeon or if you re level 983 in a scary dungeon provided it's about the same difficulty for your level? I had more fun on the way up than I did when I got there. I'm a guy who doesn't mind to "stop and smell the flowers" along the way. Part of the problem is exactly what you said, folks want to get to the endgame quickly and that's the only viable option, so games are created that way. In their minds nothing will satisfy them unless they are top dog. That's fine if that's what you want. I'm just looking for a new alternative.
I do like to advance to get to new and exciting content, and look ahead and say "wow, that looks really cool, I'm gonna go there when I am able". But I don't want to go there tomorrow...or next week necessarily. I want to hear stories and urban legends about it to create anticipation while I hone my skills.
Playing EVE online currently. Started MMO's with EQ Velious, played EQ2, DAoC, CoH, AO, SWG (pre NGE), Planetside, DCUO. Played briefly cause I didn't like: WAR, WoW, VG, etc. etc.
Well, trying to get to endgame content quickly is exactly what I'm NOT looking for. I mean, seriously, what's the difference if you are level 40 in a scary dungeon or if you re level 983 in a scary dungeon provided it's about the same difficulty for your level? I had more fun on the way up than I did when I got there. I'm a guy who doesn't mind to "stop and smell the flowers" along the way. Part of the problem is exactly what you said, folks want to get to the endgame quickly and that's the only viable option, so games are created that way. In their minds nothing will satisfy them unless they are top dog. That's fine if that's what you want. I'm just looking for a new alternative. I do like to advance to get to new and exciting content, and look ahead and say "wow, that looks really cool, I'm gonna go there when I am able". But I don't want to go there tomorrow...or next week necessarily. I want to hear stories and urban legends about it to create anticipation while I hone my skills.
because the crap you accomplish in that dungeon is meaningless in a few levels
I have kids and they like "cheat codes" and it seems this mentality has permeated games. Everyone wants a cheat code to get through things as fast as possible so they can stand on top of the mountain and say "look at me!" WoW is like a big MMO cheat code. And what's worse, they spawn children in the form of copycat MMO's. I often wonder if I was so enthralled with EQ1 because it was my first MMO but I don't think that's quite it. I felt part of the world of Norrath and I wanted to explore it. I remember talking to a guildmate and he had planned that if he got a certain amount of experience per day, he would be level 65 in 2 months...and he was already in his high 50's. Now you could do it in a day if you wanted to. The difficulty and length of time advancing your character made me feel that I had accomplished something. If I can level a toon from 1-40 in a month (most games you can do that actually faster) I feel no attatchment. If I get a level per week, well that's a character I have invested in. If it takes me an hour or 2 to get to the heart of a dungeon and if my party wipes we have to go back in with cheap replacement gear and get our stuff...that's EXCITEMENT! Especially if there is no bind point nearby. Of course inherent to this is the inevitable time sink, and different death consequences could alleviate it. But the current MMO status is -SUCK-. EVE, yeah good game but I want a mobile walking avatar. So is this all "pie in the sky" hoping? Am I too old being over 30 now to expect this? Are all MMO companies going to come out with a game that feels like I'm using cheat codes? Do any MMO companies have any desire to make a game that is challenging and balances risk/reward or are they all just trying to make us "feel" good and not hurt our self esteem and let us use RMT if we cant earn something ourselves? Are there enough folks like me who would pay to play this type of game or do all companies cater to 14 year olds now? Yes, I am ranting...and sorry....just wish I could find something to play
Those days are past and won't return. If you need to grind yourself silly to feel accomplished, I suggest you go back to EQ. The game is still up.
I would much rather experience different content (like different level zones) than grinding the same thing again & again. Have to work everyday for a week to just level does not make a fun game. it is more like a job.
I fully agree with OP.
But have to say this "job" thing is something I only see with current crop of MMO's due to them being so very limited and dumped down into just combat oriented games, and the way people rush to cap lvl, pretented it's all about hte end game sure looks like today people seem to play this genre more like a job then they did in past MMORPG.
Also grind was never a issue, of course due to people's playstyle they might enter a grind, but overal we had choices, and we did not have to cap lvl asap, that's something the new gen gamer has brought into this genre, they took their rush out of rl and entered with that same rush into MMORPG. And it's very funny to think that we do not want a different experiance, kinda what this topic is all about, yet you seem not willing to see that, as that is all we want...something different. And not like current MMORPG that need to be played as if they are jobs.
Well, trying to get to endgame content quickly is exactly what I'm NOT looking for. I mean, seriously, what's the difference if you are level 40 in a scary dungeon or if you re level 983 in a scary dungeon provided it's about the same difficulty for your level? I had more fun on the way up than I did when I got there. I'm a guy who doesn't mind to "stop and smell the flowers" along the way. Part of the problem is exactly what you said, folks want to get to the endgame quickly and that's the only viable option, so games are created that way. In their minds nothing will satisfy them unless they are top dog. That's fine if that's what you want. I'm just looking for a new alternative. I do like to advance to get to new and exciting content, and look ahead and say "wow, that looks really cool, I'm gonna go there when I am able". But I don't want to go there tomorrow...or next week necessarily. I want to hear stories and urban legends about it to create anticipation while I hone my skills.
because the crap you accomplish in that dungeon is meaningless in a few levels
So do you have anything worthwhile to contribute? Much of the food you eat gets flushed down the toilet in a few hours too, but it doesn't stop you from eating. I really don't understand your response at all.
Playing EVE online currently. Started MMO's with EQ Velious, played EQ2, DAoC, CoH, AO, SWG (pre NGE), Planetside, DCUO. Played briefly cause I didn't like: WAR, WoW, VG, etc. etc.
First, time investment != difficulty. I played Lineage2 and WoW, and I dont think leveling in L2 is harder. It takes forever, yes, but its not really harder. MMOs are all the same, target a mob, spam your skill rotation, rinse and repeat. Its not "hard". Saying "wow is easy because leveling is too quick!" makes no sense. Wow is easy because... wow is easy. Thats it. The leveling speed doesnt matter. By the way. its retarded to have to grind 24/7 for 5 months to be able to reach endgame content. Even in wow, only a small % of the players are going to see endgame. Think of a mmo that would allow players to reach endgame very quickly. Wouldnt that be more fun? Instead of lvling for 6 months, you could level for 1 month and then have fun with the remaining five months. Isnt that... GOOD for a game? Never understood the need for some players to have an insane grind. Leveling feels like a job to me, the endgame is where the fun starts. If it's challenging, fun, and creative, it's not a grind to me. I've played games I enjoy for many, many years, and it's not a grind to me, it's enjoyable playing. Reaching endgame quickly is not the answer. There are a few problems with this. 1) You don't know the abilities and limitations of your character well, you don't have the time-in-grade, and once everyone is max level it's difficult to tell the nub from pro, because people didn't earn it. Then you have Leroy Jenkins in your raid. 2) End game content is a major factor in the success of an MMO, if there is an endgame in it. The game would have to have a plethora of end game content to hold a playerbase if level cap was easily achievable. Basically, the publishers are shooting themselves in the foot by allowing you to progress fast with nothing to do when you get there(Runes of Magic; max level 50/50 can be done in under a week). It takes time to develop content. Slow your roll, and enjoy the game. Have you ever thought the leveling process is a grind in WOW, because the game sucks? It's not the grind thats the problem, it's the game. 3) There is no sense of accomplishment and victory by having something easily done. This is the core. People are wanting that sense of accomplishment, but are still left desiring because the games no longer deliver it. If I wanted to just get straight to the dessert and skip the meat, I would play FPS games. I play MMO for the whole meal, and that includes the journey leveling. If I'm not having fun leveling, I'm not going to enjoy endgame. You know why? because there will ALWAYS be leveling. There is no static endgame. Every expansion pushes endgame beyond your reach again and puts you on a level/gear treadmill.
Well, trying to get to endgame content quickly is exactly what I'm NOT looking for. I mean, seriously, what's the difference if you are level 40 in a scary dungeon or if you re level 983 in a scary dungeon provided it's about the same difficulty for your level? I had more fun on the way up than I did when I got there. I'm a guy who doesn't mind to "stop and smell the flowers" along the way. Part of the problem is exactly what you said, folks want to get to the endgame quickly and that's the only viable option, so games are created that way. In their minds nothing will satisfy them unless they are top dog. That's fine if that's what you want. I'm just looking for a new alternative. I do like to advance to get to new and exciting content, and look ahead and say "wow, that looks really cool, I'm gonna go there when I am able". But I don't want to go there tomorrow...or next week necessarily. I want to hear stories and urban legends about it to create anticipation while I hone my skills.
because the crap you accomplish in that dungeon is meaningless in a few levels
So do you have anything worthwhile to contribute? Much of the food you eat gets flushed down the toilet in a few hours too, but it doesn't stop you from eating. I really don't understand your response at all.
Well, trying to get to endgame content quickly is exactly what I'm NOT looking for. I mean, seriously, what's the difference if you are level 40 in a scary dungeon or if you re level 983 in a scary dungeon provided it's about the same difficulty for your level? I had more fun on the way up than I did when I got there. I'm a guy who doesn't mind to "stop and smell the flowers" along the way. Part of the problem is exactly what you said, folks want to get to the endgame quickly and that's the only viable option, so games are created that way. In their minds nothing will satisfy them unless they are top dog. That's fine if that's what you want. I'm just looking for a new alternative. I do like to advance to get to new and exciting content, and look ahead and say "wow, that looks really cool, I'm gonna go there when I am able". But I don't want to go there tomorrow...or next week necessarily. I want to hear stories and urban legends about it to create anticipation while I hone my skills.
because the crap you accomplish in that dungeon is meaningless in a few levels
So do you have anything worthwhile to contribute? Much of the food you eat gets flushed down the toilet in a few hours too, but it doesn't stop you from eating. I really don't understand your response at all.
the difference is you need food to live
Please stop trolling my post.....
Playing EVE online currently. Started MMO's with EQ Velious, played EQ2, DAoC, CoH, AO, SWG (pre NGE), Planetside, DCUO. Played briefly cause I didn't like: WAR, WoW, VG, etc. etc.
Well, trying to get to endgame content quickly is exactly what I'm NOT looking for. I mean, seriously, what's the difference if you are level 40 in a scary dungeon or if you re level 983 in a scary dungeon provided it's about the same difficulty for your level? I had more fun on the way up than I did when I got there. I'm a guy who doesn't mind to "stop and smell the flowers" along the way. Part of the problem is exactly what you said, folks want to get to the endgame quickly and that's the only viable option, so games are created that way. In their minds nothing will satisfy them unless they are top dog. That's fine if that's what you want. I'm just looking for a new alternative. I do like to advance to get to new and exciting content, and look ahead and say "wow, that looks really cool, I'm gonna go there when I am able". But I don't want to go there tomorrow...or next week necessarily. I want to hear stories and urban legends about it to create anticipation while I hone my skills.
because the crap you accomplish in that dungeon is meaningless in a few levels
So do you have anything worthwhile to contribute? Much of the food you eat gets flushed down the toilet in a few hours too, but it doesn't stop you from eating. I really don't understand your response at all.
you can get perfusions then , they`ll keep you alive and are in a way "endgame" of food . No more grinding over and over the same "fork->mouth> stuff .
Seriously , I`ve missed a lot between cassualy(sometimes not so casually) hanging in EvE for the last 2.5 years and not keeping an eye on the MMO scene ....
People think now that 3 months/3hours a day is a lot for a MMO? Sheeeesh....
I am in a new zone, pretty pictures, new mobs to kill…that is not a grind? While staying in one place and killing the same mobs is? This is the mentality of a baby who sees a new shiny thing and is impressed.
What we need is diversity not just of zones but of play styles and gaming dynamic. Dressing the gameplay up with a new land and new mobs is window dressing, it adds nothing of substance.
I have kids and they like "cheat codes" and it seems this mentality has permeated games. Everyone wants a cheat code to get through things as fast as possible so they can stand on top of the mountain and say "look at me!" WoW is like a big MMO cheat code. And what's worse, they spawn children in the form of copycat MMO's. I often wonder if I was so enthralled with EQ1 because it was my first MMO but I don't think that's quite it. I felt part of the world of Norrath and I wanted to explore it. I remember talking to a guildmate and he had planned that if he got a certain amount of experience per day, he would be level 65 in 2 months...and he was already in his high 50's. Now you could do it in a day if you wanted to. The difficulty and length of time advancing your character made me feel that I had accomplished something. If I can level a toon from 1-40 in a month (most games you can do that actually faster) I feel no attatchment. If I get a level per week, well that's a character I have invested in. If it takes me an hour or 2 to get to the heart of a dungeon and if my party wipes we have to go back in with cheap replacement gear and get our stuff...that's EXCITEMENT! Especially if there is no bind point nearby. Of course inherent to this is the inevitable time sink, and different death consequences could alleviate it. But the current MMO status is -SUCK-. EVE, yeah good game but I want a mobile walking avatar. So is this all "pie in the sky" hoping? Am I too old being over 30 now to expect this? Are all MMO companies going to come out with a game that feels like I'm using cheat codes? Do any MMO companies have any desire to make a game that is challenging and balances risk/reward or are they all just trying to make us "feel" good and not hurt our self esteem and let us use RMT if we cant earn something ourselves? Are there enough folks like me who would pay to play this type of game or do all companies cater to 14 year olds now? Yes, I am ranting...and sorry....just wish I could find something to play
So basically, you think MMOs would be better if they involved even more time suckage and grinding.
You're free to grind all you want in WoW. No one is stopping you.
____________________________________________ im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
When a game has a quest and mini map marker that is telling you to go here dumby to kill/pickup an item. Then that game is playing for the 12 yr olds. I can read my quest that tells me to kill x numbers of Giant Spiders and that is all I need to know. I can look around to find them. If a game marks on a mini map or gives me an arrow to follow then it is getting to EZ. The ones that are the funniest quests are the ones that say someone or something is lost and go this way to find them. People over the age of 20 do not need a marker to tell them go this way.
..its a guideline, not a rule, as players we must remember: Its a Game.
I've been playing the Vanguard trial for the last week or two. And something that's really impressed me about the game is the additional depth and complexity to the basic gameplay.
Playing a Vanguard disciple at level 10 involves more complexity and thought than playing any Warcraft character at level 40 - and probably more than playing a Pala or DK at 80.
When playing a disciple at level 10, I have to consider 3 different resources (endurance, energy, jin). I have to execute a combo attack which involves using skills in a particular order. I have to react to use skills which only become available on a crit, and other counterattack skills. I also have several short duration buffs to manage. I have to do all the above whilst also keeping an eye on the health bars of anyone I am grouped with.
That's what I'd like to see more of. For me, it's not about the grind - it's about the challenge. Grind is easy. If I wanted to grind I could just play Disgaea all day long.
I have come to realize it is more than the leveling being easy- and feeling OP no matter what class/gear you're in- it is the fact that games guide your every step... too many quests... the game spoons a little too hard... Playing WoW reminds me of a linear console mmo- you're just playing out a predetermined story, not making your own.
I, like you have that EQ mind set and I really do feel it has a lot of what is missing in today's mmo market.... I don't want dots on my map telling me where quests are... glowy trails... linear BS... I want to be able to explore and talk to random npc's and find a random bit of information about something that might help me in a quest one day... How many capped characters can you have before you realize how trivial your progress has been...
I don't know, I don't like bashing WoW as it did provide true entertainment for me in its vanilla years but I can't help but wonder when an MMO will capture the immersive world feeling like EQ did... and I do mean classic to velious... maybe luclin...it started getting silly after that... I mean I enjoyed PoP but... come on > >
raystantzFinal Fantasy XI CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,237
Originally posted by Veridic
I have come to realize it is more than the leveling being easy- and feeling OP no matter what class/gear you're in- it is the fact that games guide your every step... too many quests... the game spoons a little too hard... Playing WoW reminds me of a linear console mmo- you're just playing out a predetermined story, not making your own.
I, like you have that EQ mind set and I really do feel it has a lot of what is missing in today's mmo market.... I don't want dots on my map telling me where quests are... glowy trails... linear BS... I want to be able to explore and talk to random npc's and find a random bit of information about something that might help me in a quest one day... How many capped characters can you have before you realize how trivial your progress has been...
I don't know, I don't like bashing WoW as it did provide true entertainment for me in its vanilla years but I can't help but wonder when an MMO will capture the immersive world feeling like EQ did... and I do mean classic to velious... maybe luclin...it started getting silly after that... I mean I enjoyed PoP but... come on > >
Apparently you haven't played FFXI, Saga of Ryzom, or Darkfall.
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Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
the reason you won't see companies aiming for this "Veteran" crowd is because people with your view on games are a vast minority. There really is no money to be had.
Maybe so. They would have MY money though.
So? That is trivial. How much can you spend? Couple of hundred bucks a year?
Without a sizable market, whatever you want to contribute is meaningless.
Yes, it probably sounds elitist, but it's true. I used to know a guy who claimed he was a hardcore gamer and he cheated his way though about 90% of the games he actually ended up finishing. Most games he would just push aside after getting 25% in to them.
How can you honestly look in the mirror and claim to be a gamer while using cheats, hacks, scripts, etc? Posers IMO.
What I can't understand is how one can not find a game when there are just so many, most of which are pretty decent, games out there that cater to so many different types of people. Most of what you miss from the EQ days are the meaningless grinds that developers at the time added to the games to make up for a lack of content. You say you want a learning curve. Well everygame has one. Each game has its own set of classes and its own gameplay. People don't want to play video games that require hours apon hours to understand. They play them to have fun. Because in essence they are all just toys for our entertainment. It's really sad that people have come to forget this very simple fact.
Comments
Ok, apparently my original post somehow got misconstrued to say "hey, I want a game with a horrible grind". No. And as far as the argument to just go back and play EQ...No, after the SoL expansion it lost my interest.
Here is my new functional word....."complicated". That sums up a lot about what I'm looking for. A "complicated" game that has at least some type of learning curve (as I said before EVE is a spaceship, I want a real avatar). Something that will weed out most of the punks but keep the attention of the veteran crowd and attract gamers looking for quality, and keep a semblance of a population.
What I do think is that it's time for a developer to look at the veteran MMO crowd and see what they can do. No matter how you look at it, what is fun for an adult is often not the same think a teenager likes. I can't stand the games my kids play, but I probably would have played them myself when I was their age.
Nor do I want a game to consume my life, and yes I realize these are games. But if I play a game, I want it to have an immersive quality or I feel like it's time wasted. I play chess tournaments and to me a bad MMO is like playing a beginner at chess, I just don't enjoy myself. I like to watch football, I like to read books, I like to go cycling...but I also like to play MMO's. While I can see good games, read a good book and have a nice bike ride...I can't find an MMO that appeals to me anymore.
I am going to try some more, though....I've heard Ryzom batted around, Darkfall (seems like flocks are leaving and getting bad reviews, I'll wait on this one), and Mortal coming up....Earthrise has some appeal as far as the setting goes. Vanguard? Meh, it was ok but nothing innovative, I liked EQ2 better. But it's hard not to be cynical with the slop that's been trotted out for the last 6 or 7 years.
Playing EVE online currently. Started MMO's with EQ Velious, played EQ2, DAoC, CoH, AO, SWG (pre NGE), Planetside, DCUO. Played briefly cause I didn't like: WAR, WoW, VG, etc. etc.
so wait for earthrise
the reason you won't see companies aiming for this "Veteran" crowd is because people with your view on games are a vast minority. There really is no money to be had.
Maybe so. They would have MY money though.
Playing EVE online currently. Started MMO's with EQ Velious, played EQ2, DAoC, CoH, AO, SWG (pre NGE), Planetside, DCUO. Played briefly cause I didn't like: WAR, WoW, VG, etc. etc.
so wait for earthrise
Seriously?
Playing EVE online currently. Started MMO's with EQ Velious, played EQ2, DAoC, CoH, AO, SWG (pre NGE), Planetside, DCUO. Played briefly cause I didn't like: WAR, WoW, VG, etc. etc.
so wait for earthrise
Seriously?
I stopped reading at I liked EQ2 better than Vanguard.
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Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
First, time investment != difficulty. I played Lineage2 and WoW, and I dont think leveling in L2 is harder. It takes forever, yes, but its not really harder. MMOs are all the same, target a mob, spam your skill rotation, rinse and repeat. Its not "hard". Saying "wow is easy because leveling is too quick!" makes no sense. Wow is easy because... wow is easy. Thats it. The leveling speed doesnt matter.
By the way. its retarded to have to grind 24/7 for 5 months to be able to reach endgame content. Even in wow, only a small % of the players are going to see endgame. Think of a mmo that would allow players to reach endgame very quickly. Wouldnt that be more fun? Instead of lvling for 6 months, you could level for 1 month and then have fun with the remaining five months. Isnt that... GOOD for a game? Never understood the need for some players to have an insane grind. Leveling feels like a job to me, the endgame is where the fun starts.
Anyway, OP, its possible for MMOs to be complicated, but they are made "for the masses" and thats why most of them are pretty straight-foward, sadly. Earthrise looks promising... and thats all I can think of.
Well, trying to get to endgame content quickly is exactly what I'm NOT looking for. I mean, seriously, what's the difference if you are level 40 in a scary dungeon or if you re level 983 in a scary dungeon provided it's about the same difficulty for your level? I had more fun on the way up than I did when I got there. I'm a guy who doesn't mind to "stop and smell the flowers" along the way. Part of the problem is exactly what you said, folks want to get to the endgame quickly and that's the only viable option, so games are created that way. In their minds nothing will satisfy them unless they are top dog. That's fine if that's what you want. I'm just looking for a new alternative.
I do like to advance to get to new and exciting content, and look ahead and say "wow, that looks really cool, I'm gonna go there when I am able". But I don't want to go there tomorrow...or next week necessarily. I want to hear stories and urban legends about it to create anticipation while I hone my skills.
Playing EVE online currently. Started MMO's with EQ Velious, played EQ2, DAoC, CoH, AO, SWG (pre NGE), Planetside, DCUO. Played briefly cause I didn't like: WAR, WoW, VG, etc. etc.
because the crap you accomplish in that dungeon is meaningless in a few levels
Those days are past and won't return. If you need to grind yourself silly to feel accomplished, I suggest you go back to EQ. The game is still up.
I would much rather experience different content (like different level zones) than grinding the same thing again & again. Have to work everyday for a week to just level does not make a fun game. it is more like a job.
I fully agree with OP.
But have to say this "job" thing is something I only see with current crop of MMO's due to them being so very limited and dumped down into just combat oriented games, and the way people rush to cap lvl, pretented it's all about hte end game sure looks like today people seem to play this genre more like a job then they did in past MMORPG.
Also grind was never a issue, of course due to people's playstyle they might enter a grind, but overal we had choices, and we did not have to cap lvl asap, that's something the new gen gamer has brought into this genre, they took their rush out of rl and entered with that same rush into MMORPG. And it's very funny to think that we do not want a different experiance, kinda what this topic is all about, yet you seem not willing to see that, as that is all we want...something different. And not like current MMORPG that need to be played as if they are jobs.
because the crap you accomplish in that dungeon is meaningless in a few levels
So do you have anything worthwhile to contribute? Much of the food you eat gets flushed down the toilet in a few hours too, but it doesn't stop you from eating. I really don't understand your response at all.
Playing EVE online currently. Started MMO's with EQ Velious, played EQ2, DAoC, CoH, AO, SWG (pre NGE), Planetside, DCUO. Played briefly cause I didn't like: WAR, WoW, VG, etc. etc.
because the crap you accomplish in that dungeon is meaningless in a few levels
So do you have anything worthwhile to contribute? Much of the food you eat gets flushed down the toilet in a few hours too, but it doesn't stop you from eating. I really don't understand your response at all.
the difference is you need food to live
because the crap you accomplish in that dungeon is meaningless in a few levels
So do you have anything worthwhile to contribute? Much of the food you eat gets flushed down the toilet in a few hours too, but it doesn't stop you from eating. I really don't understand your response at all.
the difference is you need food to live
Please stop trolling my post.....
Playing EVE online currently. Started MMO's with EQ Velious, played EQ2, DAoC, CoH, AO, SWG (pre NGE), Planetside, DCUO. Played briefly cause I didn't like: WAR, WoW, VG, etc. etc.
because the crap you accomplish in that dungeon is meaningless in a few levels
So do you have anything worthwhile to contribute? Much of the food you eat gets flushed down the toilet in a few hours too, but it doesn't stop you from eating. I really don't understand your response at all.
the difference is you need food to live
Please stop trolling my post.....
i'm not trolling you i'm telling you how it is
you can get perfusions then , they`ll keep you alive and are in a way "endgame" of food . No more grinding over and over the same "fork->mouth> stuff .
Seriously , I`ve missed a lot between cassualy(sometimes not so casually) hanging in EvE for the last 2.5 years and not keeping an eye on the MMO scene ....
People think now that 3 months/3hours a day is a lot for a MMO? Sheeeesh....
I am in a new zone, pretty pictures, new mobs to kill…that is not a grind? While staying in one place and killing the same mobs is? This is the mentality of a baby who sees a new shiny thing and is impressed.
What we need is diversity not just of zones but of play styles and gaming dynamic. Dressing the gameplay up with a new land and new mobs is window dressing, it adds nothing of substance.
So basically, you think MMOs would be better if they involved even more time suckage and grinding.
You're free to grind all you want in WoW. No one is stopping you.
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im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
When a game has a quest and mini map marker that is telling you to go here dumby to kill/pickup an item. Then that game is playing for the 12 yr olds. I can read my quest that tells me to kill x numbers of Giant Spiders and that is all I need to know. I can look around to find them. If a game marks on a mini map or gives me an arrow to follow then it is getting to EZ. The ones that are the funniest quests are the ones that say someone or something is lost and go this way to find them. People over the age of 20 do not need a marker to tell them go this way.
..its a guideline, not a rule, as players we must remember: Its a Game.
I've been playing the Vanguard trial for the last week or two. And something that's really impressed me about the game is the additional depth and complexity to the basic gameplay.
Playing a Vanguard disciple at level 10 involves more complexity and thought than playing any Warcraft character at level 40 - and probably more than playing a Pala or DK at 80.
When playing a disciple at level 10, I have to consider 3 different resources (endurance, energy, jin). I have to execute a combo attack which involves using skills in a particular order. I have to react to use skills which only become available on a crit, and other counterattack skills. I also have several short duration buffs to manage. I have to do all the above whilst also keeping an eye on the health bars of anyone I am grouped with.
That's what I'd like to see more of. For me, it's not about the grind - it's about the challenge. Grind is easy. If I wanted to grind I could just play Disgaea all day long.
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I have come to realize it is more than the leveling being easy- and feeling OP no matter what class/gear you're in- it is the fact that games guide your every step... too many quests... the game spoons a little too hard... Playing WoW reminds me of a linear console mmo- you're just playing out a predetermined story, not making your own.
I, like you have that EQ mind set and I really do feel it has a lot of what is missing in today's mmo market.... I don't want dots on my map telling me where quests are... glowy trails... linear BS... I want to be able to explore and talk to random npc's and find a random bit of information about something that might help me in a quest one day... How many capped characters can you have before you realize how trivial your progress has been...
I don't know, I don't like bashing WoW as it did provide true entertainment for me in its vanilla years but I can't help but wonder when an MMO will capture the immersive world feeling like EQ did... and I do mean classic to velious... maybe luclin...it started getting silly after that... I mean I enjoyed PoP but... come on > >
ALL YOUR PLAYER BASE ARE BELONG TO KITTY!
Apparently you haven't played FFXI, Saga of Ryzom, or Darkfall.
www.facebook.com/themarksmovierules
Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
Maybe so. They would have MY money though.
So? That is trivial. How much can you spend? Couple of hundred bucks a year?
Without a sizable market, whatever you want to contribute is meaningless.
People who use cheat codes aren't gamers.
Yes, it probably sounds elitist, but it's true. I used to know a guy who claimed he was a hardcore gamer and he cheated his way though about 90% of the games he actually ended up finishing. Most games he would just push aside after getting 25% in to them.
How can you honestly look in the mirror and claim to be a gamer while using cheats, hacks, scripts, etc? Posers IMO.
What I can't understand is how one can not find a game when there are just so many, most of which are pretty decent, games out there that cater to so many different types of people. Most of what you miss from the EQ days are the meaningless grinds that developers at the time added to the games to make up for a lack of content. You say you want a learning curve. Well everygame has one. Each game has its own set of classes and its own gameplay. People don't want to play video games that require hours apon hours to understand. They play them to have fun. Because in essence they are all just toys for our entertainment. It's really sad that people have come to forget this very simple fact.