SonofSeth, My definition of grind hasn't changed, just repeated in many ways over 15mil pages since people don't seem to get it, and if they do, someone else takes their place.
In that case, your understanding of grind is a clear example why this whole grind paradigm needs to change, more than ever.
If you stand back far away enough, you really could paint the picture with a broad enough brush and call every game mechanic a grind. With advances in technology and acumulated experience over the years we have every right to demand something new, something different.
If grind is nothing other than linear progression in what ever gameplay form it takes, you should demand a change, not just reinforce the status quo. Almost every game available is linear progression with linear difficulty curve, does that satisfy you, it certainly doesn't satisfy me.
So, no, grind is not something you axcept and adjust your view of, it's something that needs to go, now.
The word "grind" is not something monumental and foreboding. It's just a basic word to explain alot of the same thing. It's a generalization of repeating something. It is a status quo if you choose to look it at like that. It's no akin to "corruption" as something serious in need of a change as you seem to imply. Like I said on a diff page, it's like the word "shit". Not a serious word but a distasteful one, used to describe many different things in many different ways.
And about wow and tbc... yes we played a lot. Farmed EVERYTHING (including sunwell up til kil jaeden before the big nerf patch prior to wrath hit). We minmaxed the shit out of all tbc content.
Well, it's entirely up to whoever spent the $50 and the monthly to determine what they like or don't like, and what they should or should not do. It's also a free forum, so they can complain as much as they want. Makes no difference to me.
I did like the different views on what grinding was/is. To me it's the leveling thats grinding, especially after it's your 4th or 5th toon.
An interesting thing Wo_ (censored*) did in the last patch was to give experience for pvp/bg, albeit at a reduced level. Doesn't do much for me, but there are players, my daughter for example, whos thrilled to stay in bg, and get level exp.
If there were zero grinding, wouldn't we all hit level and profession caps after 1-2 days, and perhaps become...bored?
It still needs to go, not the word, but meaning it represents.
But it won't. too many people want more for their character than what the story line or "linear progression" dictates. Just making it to the end will not give you the best OPTIONAL Mount, or best stat (no matter what build), best gear or highest accomplishment.
It is also a detriment to games you pay to play because it does nothing to keep a player fanbase interested. The meaning of the word was put there by gamers, for gamers. Not the companies who create or produce those games. Call it training, call it farming, and it still won't hit the mark because those generalized words still don't explain the "feeling" we can all appreciate from being there.
The only thing that really needs to change about it as how STRONGLY people feel about that word. Or feel create a different word, but you cannot change the meaning as just about EVERYONE who has played a fair share of rpgs and definitely mmos, knows the meaning first hand.
Do you like what you do for work? Do you ever feel sometimes it's just a grind? Do you mind doing your chores and ever see those as a repititious grind?
Do you break up the monotony of what you're doing and think you are actually doing something different? I doubt it. If you are doing laundry, and don't mind (some people like it for various reasons such as it gives them time to think about whatever stress is going on, or gets them away from that stress) doing that laundry, but by the 3rd load you're tired of folding, you might take a break and get a drink, or decide you want music on, and then go back to doing it. Doesn't mean you aren't grinding out a ton of laundry.
Just means you found a way to make it bearable. But in the end, you do like and appreciate clean clothes. It's the end result and reward that makes it worth doing it.
I kind of agree with OP post. I can honestly say that I am probably one of the few people that actually do enjoy MMO grinds. I don't like doing it sometimes but it makes the game last longer and more enjoyable when with several others grinding together.
It does enhance the PVP, Character Development, and Community.
I really am sad to see so many people wanting to be max level so fast. Once you are max level, there really isn't all that much to do but jump around "Ironforge"
I miss the days where griinding was 99% of the mmo. When you did finally reach top level you actually thought it was an accomplishment. Also you were attached to your character at the end. I hate how the new games you can just "roll" another character and get cought up with everyone else in a month or two.
Before anyone starts hollering, I know why mmo's don't develop games like that anymore, I just would prefer the old ways.
If you don't like grinding, you shouldn't be playing RPGs, let alone MMORPGs. It's like playing Halo and saying "I don't like shooting".
Grinding is a time honoured RPG tradition. Why, I was just playing Final Fantasy VII on my PSP and I spend 3 hours grinding outside Wutai in order to level up my materia.
Grinding in an RPG isn't exactly the same as grinding in an MMO. It's a lot easier in an RPG, imo.
***EDIT*** Slavery used to be an American honoured tradition also. That is a very stupid comment. Not all Americans owned/used slaves. Many fought against slavery in the 1800s. I'm sure that most people did not consider slavery an 'honoured tradition'.
I kind of agree with OP post. I can honestly say that I am probably one of the few people that actually do enjoy MMO grinds. I don't like doing it sometimes but it makes the game last longer and more enjoyable when with several others grinding together. It does enhance the PVP, Character Development, and Community. I really am sad to see so many people wanting to be max level so fast. Once you are max level, there really isn't all that much to do but jump around "Ironforge" Seriously.
Well, the OPs problem is that he thinks RPG = grind. RPGing have nothing whatsoever about grinding.
But yes, modern games are focusing on endgame content. That does not take away the grind, everyone can and will grind all the boring levels until they are max and that kinda takes away the fun for me. Why should I have to spend one or several months to play through a tutorial anyone with time can do?
But I believe you can do a fun RPG without grinding. Grinding is repeating the same thing over and over and that is just the game devs being lazy. However that doesn't mean I want an easy game that any 11 year old kid can master fast, I like it hard. I just don't like killing 10 000 orcs that are the same for no other reason than xp.
I hope TOR can deliver a fun RPG without grind.
The most important thing in a MMO as see it is not being lvl 80 (or whatever max is) but the journey there. And they are cutting that journy into easy crap right now.
In a way I agree with the OP. Not say that RPG = grind. But after many pages of posting on the subject, I've repeated the same thing over and over in what I tried many different ways..
And that is to say that if you do not grinding, stay away from RPGs. Or better... be prepared to grind. You might not have to, but most likely there is a choice. But because there is a choice, you might end up doing it. It's true very select RPGs do not have grinds. You would have to be very picky and choosy but today's modern RPG/MMO (not the 90's) involves grinding in many different aspects.
Yes, with a MMO you can avoid them. Sure you can. Takes a lot of effort to not take the path of least resistance. It becomes much easier to grind the same area for xp as opposed to going all over the world running quests. Doesn't mean you HAVE to though. Choice is definitely there. It's also not a dev being lazy, you just need to take into account that all games have a storyline, and that storyline involves progression. So while you don't want to spend months getting lvl 50 or 80 or 200 to see that end game content, you might have to find ways to limit that timesink by taking that same beforementioned path of least resistance and grind.
To some people seeing EVERY little bit of content is worth doing. Some people try to follow the hero of the story and see the end (which really ever isn't there in a mmo) and get nice rewards for their efforts. So while the journey can be important to some, it isn't always important to everyone. But the content IS there for the people to see it. Some people only want to be vendors or craftsmen and only do enough content to get recipes/patterns. Other people like to stay in their "smaller" world and farm things and sell spots in a group/raid to get those consumers a mount, or specific item.
Other people want to complete EVERY quest in game. Some want to see every inch of the world.
And some just want to see and manhandle the hardest aspects of the game.
Most of the time, you need to grind to see those things, or spend a LOT more time AVOIDING the grinding to get to the same spot. And if this is something that uninterests you, well, you're back to being extremely picky about what title you choose to play. But like someone said, you aren't really a "rpg'er" at that point, but more into action/adventure.
If you don't like grinding, you shouldn't be playing RPGs, let alone MMORPGs. It's like playing Halo and saying "I don't like shooting".
First, you must play a tabletop RPG with friends, maybe LARP. Then come back, and write a post saying sorry, and sending a PM to everybody that has read or commented this thread.
The ammount of dis-information and ingenuity is too high to be tolerated.
RPG's are *nothing* about grinding. Videogames are somewhat about repetition. MMORPG are about grinding, the worst the MMO, the more the grinding, and the less of RPG.
Uh, that doesn't work. Their double cheeseburgers, chicken sandwiches, quarter pounders, and their double quarter pounders are better than big macs. But I really go to mickey d's for their fries anyways.
Comments
In that case, your understanding of grind is a clear example why this whole grind paradigm needs to change, more than ever.
If you stand back far away enough, you really could paint the picture with a broad enough brush and call every game mechanic a grind. With advances in technology and acumulated experience over the years we have every right to demand something new, something different.
If grind is nothing other than linear progression in what ever gameplay form it takes, you should demand a change, not just reinforce the status quo. Almost every game available is linear progression with linear difficulty curve, does that satisfy you, it certainly doesn't satisfy me.
So, no, grind is not something you axcept and adjust your view of, it's something that needs to go, now.
The word "grind" is not something monumental and foreboding. It's just a basic word to explain alot of the same thing. It's a generalization of repeating something. It is a status quo if you choose to look it at like that. It's no akin to "corruption" as something serious in need of a change as you seem to imply. Like I said on a diff page, it's like the word "shit". Not a serious word but a distasteful one, used to describe many different things in many different ways.
And about wow and tbc... yes we played a lot. Farmed EVERYTHING (including sunwell up til kil jaeden before the big nerf patch prior to wrath hit). We minmaxed the shit out of all tbc content.
It still needs to go, not the word, but meaning it represents.
Well, it's entirely up to whoever spent the $50 and the monthly to determine what they like or don't like, and what they should or should not do. It's also a free forum, so they can complain as much as they want. Makes no difference to me.
I did like the different views on what grinding was/is. To me it's the leveling thats grinding, especially after it's your 4th or 5th toon.
An interesting thing Wo_ (censored*) did in the last patch was to give experience for pvp/bg, albeit at a reduced level. Doesn't do much for me, but there are players, my daughter for example, whos thrilled to stay in bg, and get level exp.
If there were zero grinding, wouldn't we all hit level and profession caps after 1-2 days, and perhaps become...bored?
But it won't. too many people want more for their character than what the story line or "linear progression" dictates. Just making it to the end will not give you the best OPTIONAL Mount, or best stat (no matter what build), best gear or highest accomplishment.
It is also a detriment to games you pay to play because it does nothing to keep a player fanbase interested. The meaning of the word was put there by gamers, for gamers. Not the companies who create or produce those games. Call it training, call it farming, and it still won't hit the mark because those generalized words still don't explain the "feeling" we can all appreciate from being there.
The only thing that really needs to change about it as how STRONGLY people feel about that word. Or feel create a different word, but you cannot change the meaning as just about EVERYONE who has played a fair share of rpgs and definitely mmos, knows the meaning first hand.
Do you like what you do for work? Do you ever feel sometimes it's just a grind? Do you mind doing your chores and ever see those as a repititious grind?
Do you break up the monotony of what you're doing and think you are actually doing something different? I doubt it. If you are doing laundry, and don't mind (some people like it for various reasons such as it gives them time to think about whatever stress is going on, or gets them away from that stress) doing that laundry, but by the 3rd load you're tired of folding, you might take a break and get a drink, or decide you want music on, and then go back to doing it. Doesn't mean you aren't grinding out a ton of laundry.
Just means you found a way to make it bearable. But in the end, you do like and appreciate clean clothes. It's the end result and reward that makes it worth doing it.
I kind of agree with OP post. I can honestly say that I am probably one of the few people that actually do enjoy MMO grinds. I don't like doing it sometimes but it makes the game last longer and more enjoyable when with several others grinding together.
It does enhance the PVP, Character Development, and Community.
I really am sad to see so many people wanting to be max level so fast. Once you are max level, there really isn't all that much to do but jump around "Ironforge"
Seriously.
I miss the days where griinding was 99% of the mmo. When you did finally reach top level you actually thought it was an accomplishment. Also you were attached to your character at the end. I hate how the new games you can just "roll" another character and get cought up with everyone else in a month or two.
Before anyone starts hollering, I know why mmo's don't develop games like that anymore, I just would prefer the old ways.
Grinding in an RPG isn't exactly the same as grinding in an MMO. It's a lot easier in an RPG, imo.
***EDIT*** Slavery used to be an American honoured tradition also. That is a very stupid comment. Not all Americans owned/used slaves. Many fought against slavery in the 1800s. I'm sure that most people did not consider slavery an 'honoured tradition'.
Well, the OPs problem is that he thinks RPG = grind. RPGing have nothing whatsoever about grinding.
But yes, modern games are focusing on endgame content. That does not take away the grind, everyone can and will grind all the boring levels until they are max and that kinda takes away the fun for me. Why should I have to spend one or several months to play through a tutorial anyone with time can do?
But I believe you can do a fun RPG without grinding. Grinding is repeating the same thing over and over and that is just the game devs being lazy. However that doesn't mean I want an easy game that any 11 year old kid can master fast, I like it hard. I just don't like killing 10 000 orcs that are the same for no other reason than xp.
I hope TOR can deliver a fun RPG without grind.
The most important thing in a MMO as see it is not being lvl 80 (or whatever max is) but the journey there. And they are cutting that journy into easy crap right now.
In a way I agree with the OP. Not say that RPG = grind. But after many pages of posting on the subject, I've repeated the same thing over and over in what I tried many different ways..
And that is to say that if you do not grinding, stay away from RPGs. Or better... be prepared to grind. You might not have to, but most likely there is a choice. But because there is a choice, you might end up doing it. It's true very select RPGs do not have grinds. You would have to be very picky and choosy but today's modern RPG/MMO (not the 90's) involves grinding in many different aspects.
Yes, with a MMO you can avoid them. Sure you can. Takes a lot of effort to not take the path of least resistance. It becomes much easier to grind the same area for xp as opposed to going all over the world running quests. Doesn't mean you HAVE to though. Choice is definitely there. It's also not a dev being lazy, you just need to take into account that all games have a storyline, and that storyline involves progression. So while you don't want to spend months getting lvl 50 or 80 or 200 to see that end game content, you might have to find ways to limit that timesink by taking that same beforementioned path of least resistance and grind.
To some people seeing EVERY little bit of content is worth doing. Some people try to follow the hero of the story and see the end (which really ever isn't there in a mmo) and get nice rewards for their efforts. So while the journey can be important to some, it isn't always important to everyone. But the content IS there for the people to see it. Some people only want to be vendors or craftsmen and only do enough content to get recipes/patterns. Other people like to stay in their "smaller" world and farm things and sell spots in a group/raid to get those consumers a mount, or specific item.
Other people want to complete EVERY quest in game. Some want to see every inch of the world.
And some just want to see and manhandle the hardest aspects of the game.
Most of the time, you need to grind to see those things, or spend a LOT more time AVOIDING the grinding to get to the same spot. And if this is something that uninterests you, well, you're back to being extremely picky about what title you choose to play. But like someone said, you aren't really a "rpg'er" at that point, but more into action/adventure.
/shrug
facebook mmo, there, I've said it.
edit
think of other people as resources
LOL I JUST tried Disciple.
Oh maaan.
First, you must play a tabletop RPG with friends, maybe LARP. Then come back, and write a post saying sorry, and sending a PM to everybody that has read or commented this thread.
The ammount of dis-information and ingenuity is too high to be tolerated.
RPG's are *nothing* about grinding. Videogames are somewhat about repetition. MMORPG are about grinding, the worst the MMO, the more the grinding, and the less of RPG.
You have understand NOTHING about RPG.
Here are some great single player RPGs with lots of grinding goodness
I spent yesterday Grinding scenario 10 in valkyria chronicles. XD
And if you don't like McDonalds you should not eat.
Yes... very... logical. Eat shit. Millions of flies can't be wrong.
Do we really have to content with mediocre things because someone says so? Doh.
I fixed your post.
Uh, that doesn't work. Their double cheeseburgers, chicken sandwiches, quarter pounders, and their double quarter pounders are better than big macs.
But I really go to mickey d's for their fries anyways.
Oh well.