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Solution to Grinding, or would nerds complain too much?
ArchAngel102
Member Posts: 273
One of the biggest complaints among CoX nerds was the fact they couldn't number crunch their powers to exploit as much as they could to be a Munchkin.
I always thought, "Wow, I wish those number crunchers would die..."
Angry towards those who ruin roleplaying experience as the scapegoats of "the grind" and other hideous marks of modern MMO trends. "It's their fault this new MMO sucks! NUMBER CRUNCHERRRRRRRRRRRRS!!!!!!"
I'm sick and tired of levels, but as Darkfall would soon show me, skill based games have the exact same problems as level games. Grind grind grind. Rush to "end game." It's all about number crunching, mathematics, and exploiting every ability to form cookie-cutter templates that everyone can copy so they can "own" those unfortunate enough to choose a gimped skill for the sake of FUN or to be UNIQUE. Try to be something "cool" like a scrawny midget warrior, or a braindless barbarian wizard, and you end up being gimped.
Passed up on grouping again because I am not an Ogre Warrior and chose Elf instead? Blacklisted from guilds because I thought it would be cool to multi-class? While everyone else stands infront of the capital city shouting, "LFG! Pick me! I'm just like everybody else, but better than those losers who think they're "unique"!"
Oh god, it's highschool all over again, and I wanted to be an individual!
The Solution: Screw the number crunchers- why not hide all skill? Hide all XP? Hide how much more till the next level? Make the system too difficult to measure so there are no 3rd party tools to show XP or tell you "100 quests = 1 level!".
This would mean players would have to play for FUN. Something they may not know how to do in a sandbox game, but with the right incentives and direction, it could become popular. A skill based game where there ARE skills, and it tells you when you reach certain points "You're now a Grandmaster Swordsman!" or "You are now an Adept Archer." OR NOT! Perhaps a game where you NEVER know ANYTHING outside of the abilities you may be able to learn
This way a player who plays for 4 years has no idea how good he is compared to a player who plays for 1 month, outside of the fact they just owned them and now can proudly think "It's all skill! 
"
Then when the same player is defeated, then can simply pass it off with the excuse "They are just higher level, that's all."
But there would, no doubt, be a large group of players who would constantly complain, desperately wanting to know how much damage X ability does instead of Y. Wanting to know "Which class does the highest DPS burst damage?" Screaming in a tantrum "WHY WONT YOU SHOW US OUR XP?!?! I WANNA GRIND!!!!"
Do you think this is a good idea? Hide all stats, Hide all skills, and make the system more difficult to measure than it's worth so there arent 3rd party websites to "Show Stats"? Or do you think the majority of players WANT to see their XP bar, so they can grind and grind for max level instead of having fun, roleplaying adventures, or experiencing what truly is a sandbox game?
You could still have all the fun parts like character advancement, new skills and abilities to unlock at [x] skill level, or once you're at [x] level you can choose a 'trait' to be stronger, quicker, or smarter. Just remember, just becaus one hides stat/skill/xp/dps advancement, doesn't mean you can't still have all the stuff games like WoW, EQ2, CoX, etc. has. It also doesn't mean you can't have a measurement system to tell how good a weapon is. "Rank 1 Weapon of Weak Strength, Rank 10 Weapon of Ultimate Strength" could still tell you how good a weapon is- but not give you the exact amounts so you can't number crunch.
Comments
You're ruining the carrot of the MMO formula.
You also can not encrypt or make a leveling system complex enough so that it cannot be figured out or datamined.
If you want to play like a unique snowflake (even if unique to you is playing as a snowflake with half of it melted) than do so. Just don't expect to get a group when you can't even do anything. Just like in an FPS no one is going to want to put up with your ass because you think playing like a total gimp is fun or enjoyable, because you're just making it suck for the rest of the group.
Having multiple paths and options for a character are always a good idea, but your idea is terrible not to mention that, like I said, it would probably take a few weeks to datamine and figure out the games leveling curve, the XP you get per kill from what kills, the XP you get per quest, the damage on abilities, ect. If you don't understand that then there is no hope for you.
While that is an interesting idea, it almost goes counter to how RPG gameplay works. Ever since the beginning, players have always been obsessed with the numbers.
I do understand your complaint though and it's perfectly valid. Far too many people are min-maxers. They want to be the most efficient/effective killing machine, instead of the most fun. Even on roleplaying servers, the vast majority stick with the best, not what works with their player concept.
It's a problem that's rampant in all parts of the game and it's a very sad thing.
Personally, I don't know I could bear to play a game like that. Not knowing how long it would take to advance a level would eventually demoralize me. I wouldn't have the patience to keep killing monsters and doing quests. I need the carrot at the end of the stick to keep me moving forward.
The problem is that people are so hardcoded to be efficient/effective/competitive. It's increasingly rare to find a person who does something just because it's fun.
For example, let me look at Guild Wars. PvE in GW is not that hard. When you are solo leveling with heroes/henchmen, there is no reason to pick the very best skills. You can just bring your favorites along and play the way you like. But when I do that, it will eventually bother me too much that I'm not doing enough damage or making enough of a difference. Even though I have soooo many choices, I usually end up picking the most effective skill templates instead.
I have to agree with the OP , min/maxers have all but ruined most games .
I will agree that min / maxers have all but ruined gaming.
I, however, do not want my numbers hidden. I've instead taken to only grouping with family / real life friends. We can all be unique individuals without worrying about being shunned for not following the min / max crowd.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
I'm not going to argue that min-maxing can get annoying... but do you have a solution? In games where min-maxers exist (often with end game raiding or PvE content) it's obvious that you want the players in the group to put out a certain amount of DPS, or healing, or absorbing damage. Sure you might have fun playing like a gimp, and that is totally perfectly fine. You can go PvP with an oddball spec all you want, or you can go group with friends if you want as well. However you need to understand that if you can't even do a minimum amount of DPS than you are going to be dead weight in a group.
This obviously sucks for a few reason. For one, you'll still want to roll on loot against the people who actually did something. You'll also likely be a liability on fights (which are very number and stats based, welcome to an RPG game!) and may as well be the cause for failing a more difficult fight.
So go ahead and play like you want. However if you can't make the minimum expectations of a group why would they want to let you in? You're going to do nothing but ruin their fun, which is incredibly selfish.
I'm not going to argue that min-maxing can get annoying... but do you have a solution? In games where min-maxers exist (often with end game raiding or PvE content) it's obvious that you want the players in the group to put out a certain amount of DPS, or healing, or absorbing damage. Sure you might have fun playing like a gimp, and that is totally perfectly fine. You can go PvP with an oddball spec all you want, or you can go group with friends if you want as well. However you need to understand that if you can't even do a minimum amount of DPS than you are going to be dead weight in a group.
You see this is where we disagree these games are supposed to be fun, not a contest to see has the largest Epeen, while I can see the argument in a pvp . Try lightening up and enjoying the game instead of blowing a gasket because someone was a couple of hundred dps less that what is considered optimal.
This obviously sucks for a few reason. For one, you'll still want to roll on loot against the people who actually did something. You mean like taking the risk of going up against the Boss mob like you are and losing all their gear or having a huge repair bill or whatever the penalty of losing is ( if there is one) .You'll also likely be a liability on fights (which are very number and stats based, welcome to an RPG game!) only because its become a bastardized version of what RPG started out as. and may as well be the cause for failing a more difficult fight. The more difficult the fight the more satisfying it is when you win .
So go ahead and play like you want. However if you can't make the minimum expectations of a group why would they want to let you in? You're going to do nothing but ruin their fun, which is incredibly selfish. Well I think you got off on a tangent since people like you probably would'nt play a game like the OP is suggesting therefore I wouldn't have to worry about grouping with them
A game like this would probably appeal to those who played pen and paper rpgs with groups of friends who wouldnt hold it against you that your warrior didnt have 18 double aught strength and 19 constitution.
MY OPINION IS ALWAYS THE RIGHT ONE, PEOPLE WHO SEE DIFFERENTLY ARE WRONG!
I don't think they've ruined most games, I do think, however, that they've made most character types entirely generic. In most games, you know what to expect from most of the classes. Almost all healers of a certain level will have a certain skillset and a certain set of spells. Everyone looks at online guides that tells you what to increase, where to go, what bosses to kill so you can get specific items and what armor to wear. In the end, everyone looks the same under their social clothing because everyone *IS* the same.
It gets real old, real fast.
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It is impossible to make min-maxers go away. I seriously think it's an innate human attribute. Taking away the transparency of the numbers would drive a lot of the number focused people away. That is a huge percentage of the gaming population.
I'm also sure that a lot of people will do their best to figure out the numbers. I'm not sure it's possible to hide all the numbers, unless the system is ridiculously complex. Guild Wars has a lot of complex things happening in the background, but players have still somehow figured out how everything works.
Then the next question is "Is it possible to make a game where min-maxers and people who just want to have fun can coexist?"
Well, that's a hard one because it means a TON of work for the developers.
I would say that it's a question of balance. Min-maxers work to find the best template. What if there is no one ideal template? What if there are numerous options that are all perfectly viable?
Yes, it's min-maxers that make people in the endgame all carbon copies of one another. But in many cases, you can also blame the developers for making so few options that the choices are limited. It's either be effective or be gimped. Why can't you be effective and be fun?
Guild Wars has a positive in this respect, although the negatives are all too apparent as well. In many groups, your teammates will expect you to have a template that is highly regarded on pvx.wikia.com, or else they will kick you from the team. For some classes, like the Paragon, that leaves only one option...the imbagon. But some classes, there are a lot of options that are highly valued.
It's impossible to make a game to be dummy proof. There will always be some people who are too dumb or too lazy to figure out what works. But it is possible to make a game that's flexible enough to create a fun and effective character that you want to play.
I’m with you OP in the heart of the argument.
Min/Maxers have taken an obvious mechanic and turned it into a lifestyle/gameplay instead.
A Bioware dev said min/maxers couldn’t be satisfied and I’m waiting to see what they do in Star Wars: The Old Republic.
In the meantime games like EQ2 have tried to take the focus off the numbers in XP gain at least by diverting to percentage instead of hard numbers but yeah it‘s definitely not enough.
AC2 Player RIP Final Death Jan 31st 2017
Refugee of Auberean
Refugee of Dereth
It's got nothing to do with that. What is so difficult to understand that if you are doing terrible at the game that no one is going to want to group with you? These are very goal oriented games, I'd hope you realize, and having someone who is directly causing the rest of the group to not get towards that goal is not something they want.
Personally I wouldn't insult you but I would just turn you down. I'm not really a PvE player though so don't take that too personally.
No one likes to Wipe, or "lose". You can certainly bet that if you are the reason for a group "losing" over and over that they are going to want to fix that.
I mean, that's about as basic as it gets. I'm not really sure whats difficult to understand that.
RPG's have always been about stats, even if you didn't pay attention to them.
Yeah, except its not very satisfying when you realize that you're essentially babysitting a player who wants to play as his own unique way, and who was entirely a dead weight during the whole time. A difficult fight is satisfying to finish when everyone gives it their all. It doesn't count if a fight was difficult only because someone didn't really feel like trying or caring.
I was talking about min-max in general, not the OP's bastardized version of a game.
CoH hid most of numbers, and people figured all the numbers out. So now they list the number.
And there is only one solution to grind, make the game fun. That's it.
No. People would still find a way to number crunch, even if it took ridiculous amounts of experimentation, record-keeping, and analysis to find the actual numbers.
What's needed is smaller numbers. Rather than having "5" mean "anywhere from 5.000 to 5.9999 (repeating, of course)," have it mean 5. Five. Cinco. Just five. I don't know why computer RPGs have such ridiculously inflated numbers; maybe it's to attract dimwitted players who are impressed by that sort of thing, or maybe it's to keep players focused on the numbers so they don't realize the gameplay is dull and tedious.
In D&D, a normal human's stats went to 18. Having an 18 Constitution meant your character was incredibly tough. Even the gods themselves didn't have anything over 25. Now we have stats measured in the hundreds, or even thousands, with no upper limit applied.
Smaller numbers, more easily-managed numbers, blatantly obvious numbers, mean less number-crunching. Players will still be able to number-crunch, but not to the ridiculous extremes that they can now..
I wouldn't call it "My Game" as I don't even know if I would play it! LoL...
It was just a general idea to spark discussion.
Some of you raised some good points.
One thing that makes an RPG...an RPG, are the numbers.
I actually don't mind number crunching to figure out the optimal choice. But this is because I pick BEFOREHAND everything I want to be, and do. What bothers me are the min-maxers who create their class, race, spec, gear, and character solely to min-max.
I just do whatever I want, but number crunch for that particular thing. I like to, for example:
Cookie Cutter Class: Hunter, Elf Race, Ranged Damage Spec, Agility and HP Gear.
Me: Um, warrior!
Cookie Cutter Warrior: Two handed battle axe of DOOM spec! Super strength, Half Ogre race!
Me: No, there are three specs, I want to be dual wield or shield! I'll pick shield! And I want to be a skeleton (low str but high hp!)
Cookie Cutter Shield Warrior: High Agility to Block Often, High Str and AC.
Me: I want to be a BERSERK OFFENSIVE SHIELD WARRIOR! BARBARIAN!!!!!!!!! So all gear does HP and crit %. I don't block as much damage, I don't block as often, but I hit harder, still more defense than non-shield warrior, and I sitll block sometimes even if it's not max, but lets see someone kill me if I have a HEALER!!!!
Like that. Number crunch my gear, but not to min-max as a cookie cutter. Instead, to min-max what my idea of my character (roleplaying) is. He loves his shield, but he's more like a rogue than a warrior, but warriors can spec to use shields, plus rogues hide and this skeleton doesnt hide!!
Number crunching aside, it's all about the FUN, not the WIN.
To Nadril: Rarely am I ever gimped, as EVERYONE, even gimped specs, still fulfill adequately their role. Even if you have 0 points in your spec in WoW, you will still do a lot of damage as a dps class, still absorb a lot of damage as a tank, and still heal a lot as a healer. Even when people gimp themselves, the difference is often not significant enough to make them not be the deciding factor in a 3v2 or 10v9 battle. One extra character, whether they're dps healer or tank, even if gimped, will provide ample amount of damage, damage absorption, or damage healing. The only exception are gimped gear in gear based games like WoW, where a Twink can beat 3 people, and one-hit the gimped gear player. And in all games, somehow even in gear games like WoW, player skill can be the deciding factor of a gimped character winning against a maxed out twink.
Some gamers like to play gimped characters to be unique, because their player skill makes up for being underpowered character, which makes it all the more sweet to omgwtfpwn the min-maxers.
You do realize that you're a "nerd" too because you do play mmos. Just saying. Anyways to your OP. I wouldn't mind not showing that stuff either, it's only there to simply show progression and thats it. I think you should have an option to show or hide it. But you have to build a game where players you want to play your game. You build a game like WoW, you get idiots who thinks they are good at the game when it takes zero game skill. Kudos to the post, but I still disagree that nerds are the only number crunchers.
The thing is, you can't ever get rid of number crunchers/min-maxers. By hiding all the numerical statistics in an RPG, you are just controlling the extent to which the game can be number crunched. Players will still record, analyze, and plan around any data whatsoever that they can get their hands on.
My solution: don't feel bad if you can't compete with "nerds"
simplifying the game just so your type can compete at the top is almost selfish lol.
Of course I'm a nerd.
I play PnP RPG's (Shadowrun, L5R, TOON), 6 different Miniature Games (HeroClix, HorrorClix, Flames of War, AT43, Confrontation, Heroscape), I own a PS3, PSP, DS, upgrade my self-made PC every 6 months with new hardware, purchase tons of PC games, RTS, FPS, and am always subscribed to atleast one or sometimes two MMORPG's. I also am a huge fan of Simpsons, Futurama, X-Files, and the History Channel.
I also post on these forums, and constantly spent hours a day reading about games, technology, or on myspace.
I'm a MASSIVE nerd. I will be the first to admit though, nerds complain a lot! LoL... Nerds also number crunch, and anyone who does math is a NERD!!!!!!!!!!!! Even if they play in the NFL, they're just athletic nerds, not jocks.
I think the majority of min-maxers just follow a cookie-cutter type.
I theorize that the harder it is to crunch the numbers (find the numbers by measuring) the less often, less influential, etc. there will be cookie-cutter classes, and the more freedom players will have to say "I have no idea if this is any good, but I like it. No one really knows."
Also, hiding the numbers is VERY possible. With the amount of tweaks and patches some MMO's have to balance game mechanics, it would only be as simple as making it JUST difficult enough to take it just as long as it takes to patch. By the time you figure it out, it changed.
I also realize that nothing is unbreakable. It's like a lock. You don't have to make it uncrackable (that's impossible) you just have to make it hard enough that it isn't worth it.
people did crunch city of heroes. It just takes more data and a smarter player to figure it out.
As you level and the mobs get harder, tank and spank gradually drills everything down to needing the most min-maxed tanking, healing and DPSing - hitting it's final crescendo with raid bosses.
However, even if the game system is tank and spank there could potentially be many different templates which were equal in one of those three categories. That would help a bit but not if your choice of template wasn't one of the maxed ones.
So to me the problem isn't really min-maxers (as that can't be changed) but that min-maxing works in the game system.
Looking back to my old tabetop days with my brothers when a party entered a room full of orcs the orcs didn't all attack the fighter. We always did it so 1 or 2 would attack the character in front and the others would fan out a bit and attack the characters just behind. In general you had melee types acting as blockers while the non-melee types did stuff from the rear. If the paradigm somehow shifted to something like this then I think that would might make min-maxing character templates less important.
I just got finished typing one of the longest posts I've ever made to the internet and probably one of the longest posts ever posted on this forum, so I have no energy left and do not wish to be caught up in the flame war that will no doubt ensue as a result of your post.
But I did want to comment on these specifc parts of your post. I have two things to say:
First...
LOL
And secondly...
I agree, this is a problem which I would like to see solved.
That is all.
The History of the Order of The Golden Shields
I think a Modern, Cyberpunk, or Sci-Fi game would solve the horrid barrier of Tank Healer DPS that MMORPG's today won't get away from.
Because when it becomes more like a modern PnP game, there's less or no healing, EVERYONE can damage someone (it's called a gun!) and there's more to life than just combat (Charisma Skills, Robots, Hacking, Information, Stealth (not rogue assassins, but sneaking by without killing anyone))
Then, once the cookie-cutter fantasy template is destroyed (Tank Healer DPS) fantasy games with *magic* can return, but in a new, and better, format.
I blame D&D. No offense to anyone who likes it, but IMO it's to blame for the Tank Healer DPS module, and although it's superior to MMORPG's twisted mutation of the mechanics- it's still a little close to it.
Too bad they couldn't have copied off of a better system, like Shadowrun, L5R, Middle Earth RPG (classic, lol, You fumble and pull your groin. You're out for 3 rounds, your opponent is out for 2 rounds laughing.)
But oh well. D&D isn't as annoying as all the ignorant morons who think that MMORPG technology is so limited that making anything more than a simple game would be "IMPOSSIBLE" -_-
Yea, maybe impossible for morons like them, but certainly not impossible to anyone with any talent in programming.
Hiding the formulas doesn't make them cease to exist. In a combat oriented game, a parse is always possible even if it comes down to quantity of time to kill mob x. However, I sympathize with some of what you are saying. I sometimes wonder if general chat is the killer of all excitement; why not group with whoever happens to cross paths. Unfortunately, if general chat wasn't built into the game system people would use instant messengers to work around it. I think the best implementation for bypassing the lack of groups is to provide enough benefit for grouping with someone immediately rather than taking the time to set up a group with someone who has a potentially "better" build. In the meantime, you might want to try a game that has a fast grind such as Guildwars.
I think a Modern, Cyberpunk, or Sci-Fi game would solve the horrid barrier of Tank Healer DPS that MMORPG's today won't get away from.
Because when it becomes more like a modern PnP game, there's less or no healing, EVERYONE can damage someone (it's called a gun!) and there's more to life than just combat (Charisma Skills, Robots, Hacking, Information, Stealth (not rogue assassins, but sneaking by without killing anyone))
Then, once the cookie-cutter fantasy template is destroyed (Tank Healer DPS) fantasy games with *magic* can return, but in a new, and better, format.
I blame D&D. No offense to anyone who likes it, but IMO it's to blame for the Tank Healer DPS module, and although it's superior to MMORPG's twisted mutation of the mechanics- it's still a little close to it.
Too bad they couldn't have copied off of a better system, like Shadowrun, L5R, Middle Earth RPG (classic, lol, You fumble and pull your groin. You're out for 3 rounds, your opponent is out for 2 rounds laughing.)
But oh well. D&D isn't as annoying as all the ignorant morons who think that MMORPG technology is so limited that making anything more than a simple game would be "IMPOSSIBLE" -_-
Yea, maybe impossible for morons like them, but certainly not impossible to anyone with any talent in programming.
imo most other systems just boil down to creating tank-heal-DPS hybrids which, though better in some ways, restricts a lot of group tactical options - unless as you mention classes are specifically given tactical specials.
I think the key problem is the mob AI. If you've ever tried to write some mob AI you quickly find out how elegantly simple the aggro mechanic is as it puts all the complexity on the player side of the equation. It also leads to the most efficient tactic being tank and spank. If the AI was changed so the fights became many-to-many then there'd be less pressure to be min-maxed as your warrior build wouldn't have to be able to survive against multiple mobs. They'd just have to be able to block one mob from the squishy back row.
Wouldn't that just mean that the min-max would be different? Certain DPS classes might have to go for a bit more survivability or what have you. Not to mention in games that don't use an agro mechanic there already are optimal builds, like in NWN or BG2.
Really changing the mechanics of a fight like that isn't going to mean that there won't be an optimal way to do something. As with any RPG there are always optimal builds which perform better than others. It would be a nightmare as well to literally balance a game so that any play style or build would work. Perhaps with a game where there are less customability options. However even in a game like WoW it would be an impossible task to take on.
If someone can figure out a way for it to work though I, and any MMO developer, would be all ears to hear it.