Thats why people care. Thats why people grind. Thats why people compete.
MMORPGs and POWER are intrinsically related.
In other genres, power isnt felt as deeply.
If its a single player game, you dont have power over others.
If its a first person shooter, adventure, action game, your power gap is minimal, you are either locked with the same power you had at the start, or your power curve is fixed by the developers at each point of the game. The ilusion effect is weak.
In RPGs you have a stronger sense of power, you start weak and end up inevitably über. The ilusion effect is stronger, but....
In MMORPGs, the POWER you experience is like a nuclear explosion. Not only your power range varies imenselly, not only in intensity, but in scope. You can use your power against real people, wich exponensialize the feeling. It takes much longer than any other game, but its much more satisfying and justifiable time and effort spent as well. Hell, it even justify real money investment, communities, teamspeak/ventrillo servers, sites/communities.
We are talking about human nature. Its unavoidable. People want more and more power. MMORPGs are made so people start weak and through time and effort they can become powerfull. Thats why RMT "pay to win" free to play games are viable, because people care enough to spend real money to acquire virtual power.
In a MMORPG, there is a social consensus between the players. Characters are comparable. Everything is objectivelly measurable. POWER is determinant.
MMORPGs sell Power.
No wonder most of the players are nerds who also neglect sex. They think its better than sex. Sex lasts some minutes, whatever you get from a MMORPG lasts much longer...
Do you understood now what we are talking about?
OFF COURSE THEY WILL CRUNCH NUMBERS.
Crunch numbers is the least they will do for power.
It also leads to the most efficient tactic being tank and spank. If the AI was changed so the fights became many-to-many then there'd be less pressure to be min-maxed as your warrior build wouldn't have to be able to survive against multiple mobs. They'd just have to be able to block one mob from the squishy back row.
Wouldn't that just mean that the min-max would be different? Certain DPS classes might have to go for a bit more survivability or what have you. Not to mention in games that don't use an agro mechanic there already are optimal builds, like in NWN or BG2.
Really changing the mechanics of a fight like that isn't going to mean that there won't be an optimal way to do something. As with any RPG there are always optimal builds which perform better than others. It would be a nightmare as well to literally balance a game so that any play style or build would work. Perhaps with a game where there are less customability options. However even in a game like WoW it would be an impossible task to take on.
If someone can figure out a way for it to work though I, and any MMO developer, would be all ears to hear it.
Well i'm not sure it will work but the idea is more that the min-max stays exactly the same but is less important, example, three players enter a room with three mobs:
Option A) The three mobs follow the regular aggro mechanic and attack the nearest player (best tank) and it stays that way as long as the players don't mess up their aggro management.
Option The three mobs attack the nearest player. On the next tick the AI for the first mob AI says this one is covered and so the AI for the other two looks for the next nearest player and attacks him. The next tick the AI for the second mob says I've got this one covered and so the third mob AI looks for and attacks the third player.
In the first case, assuming it's a tough matchup between the players and mobs, then you might need the main tank and healer to be min-maxed to have any chance of winning because the mob damage is concentrated whereas in the second case it might be easier to win if you had three min-maxed players but it wouldn't be as neccessary.
Somewhere among the many to many fight your group would need an overlap or advantage over the mobs but one of the generic roles in any group would be any build or play style that could keep one same level mob occupied for a reasonable length of time.
people did crunch city of heroes. It just takes more data and a smarter player to figure it out.
The trick is to Make it so the more people use the same combo the weaker it gets. this way they will keep their mouths shut.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. Samuel Adams
Hide the numbers and people will figure them out anyway.
The only way I see to circumvent min - maxing is add a larger focus on player skill, meaning both mental and physical skills. There would still be min - max builds out there but if someone sucks at what they are doing it doesn't much matter, so there would be more variables that players couldn't track about a player.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
It also leads to the most efficient tactic being tank and spank. If the AI was changed so the fights became many-to-many then there'd be less pressure to be min-maxed as your warrior build wouldn't have to be able to survive against multiple mobs. They'd just have to be able to block one mob from the squishy back row.
Wouldn't that just mean that the min-max would be different? Certain DPS classes might have to go for a bit more survivability or what have you. Not to mention in games that don't use an agro mechanic there already are optimal builds, like in NWN or BG2.
Really changing the mechanics of a fight like that isn't going to mean that there won't be an optimal way to do something. As with any RPG there are always optimal builds which perform better than others. It would be a nightmare as well to literally balance a game so that any play style or build would work. Perhaps with a game where there are less customability options. However even in a game like WoW it would be an impossible task to take on.
If someone can figure out a way for it to work though I, and any MMO developer, would be all ears to hear it.
Well i'm not sure it will work but the idea is more that the min-max stays exactly the same but is less important, example, three players enter a room with three mobs:
Option A) The three mobs follow the regular aggro mechanic and attack the nearest player (best tank) and it stays that way as long as the players don't mess up their aggro management.
Option The three mobs attack the nearest player. On the next tick the AI for the first mob AI says this one is covered and so the AI for the other two looks for the next nearest player and attacks him. The next tick the AI for the second mob says I've got this one covered and so the third mob AI looks for and attacks the third player.
In the first case, assuming it's a tough matchup between the players and mobs, then you might need the main tank and healer to be min-maxed to have any chance of winning because the mob damage is concentrated whereas in the second case it might be easier to win if you had three min-maxed players but it wouldn't be as neccessary.
Somewhere among the many to many fight your group would need an overlap or advantage over the mobs but one of the generic roles in any group would be any build or play style that could keep one same level mob occupied for a reasonable length of time.
A balanced, even if primitive, system is one that takes into consideration that 3 players can kill each monster faster. So, the rate at which 1 player gains xp can be the same as the rate at which 3 players together gain xp. So, make tanks have 4 times as many hps as any other class and let them tank 1 monster super easy if they are soloing or tank 3 monsters simultaneously while paying attention to the health bar.
people did crunch city of heroes. It just takes more data and a smarter player to figure it out.
The trick is to Make it so the more people use the same combo the weaker it gets. this way they will keep their mouths shut.
This is a great idea and would help prevent cookie cutters. You'd try to produce something that works, but not what every one else uses.
It sort of makes sense to. Mobs just get used to fighting predictable players.
Another way to stop min maxers is to have more variables affecting the damage, things like elemental buffs, weather, time etc. Make the maths non-linear and mob specific weaknesses to certain weapons or attacks. Finally armour changinf should not be possible during combat and weapon switching should take the expected amount of time.
Comments
Let me simplify for the OP.
POWER
Thats why people care. Thats why people grind. Thats why people compete.
MMORPGs and POWER are intrinsically related.
In other genres, power isnt felt as deeply.
If its a single player game, you dont have power over others.
If its a first person shooter, adventure, action game, your power gap is minimal, you are either locked with the same power you had at the start, or your power curve is fixed by the developers at each point of the game. The ilusion effect is weak.
In RPGs you have a stronger sense of power, you start weak and end up inevitably über. The ilusion effect is stronger, but....
In MMORPGs, the POWER you experience is like a nuclear explosion. Not only your power range varies imenselly, not only in intensity, but in scope. You can use your power against real people, wich exponensialize the feeling. It takes much longer than any other game, but its much more satisfying and justifiable time and effort spent as well. Hell, it even justify real money investment, communities, teamspeak/ventrillo servers, sites/communities.
We are talking about human nature. Its unavoidable. People want more and more power. MMORPGs are made so people start weak and through time and effort they can become powerfull. Thats why RMT "pay to win" free to play games are viable, because people care enough to spend real money to acquire virtual power.
In a MMORPG, there is a social consensus between the players. Characters are comparable. Everything is objectivelly measurable. POWER is determinant.
MMORPGs sell Power.
No wonder most of the players are nerds who also neglect sex. They think its better than sex. Sex lasts some minutes, whatever you get from a MMORPG lasts much longer...
Do you understood now what we are talking about?
OFF COURSE THEY WILL CRUNCH NUMBERS.
Crunch numbers is the least they will do for power.
Wouldn't that just mean that the min-max would be different? Certain DPS classes might have to go for a bit more survivability or what have you. Not to mention in games that don't use an agro mechanic there already are optimal builds, like in NWN or BG2.
Really changing the mechanics of a fight like that isn't going to mean that there won't be an optimal way to do something. As with any RPG there are always optimal builds which perform better than others. It would be a nightmare as well to literally balance a game so that any play style or build would work. Perhaps with a game where there are less customability options. However even in a game like WoW it would be an impossible task to take on.
If someone can figure out a way for it to work though I, and any MMO developer, would be all ears to hear it.
Well i'm not sure it will work but the idea is more that the min-max stays exactly the same but is less important, example, three players enter a room with three mobs:
Option A) The three mobs follow the regular aggro mechanic and attack the nearest player (best tank) and it stays that way as long as the players don't mess up their aggro management.
Option
The three mobs attack the nearest player. On the next tick the AI for the first mob AI says this one is covered and so the AI for the other two looks for the next nearest player and attacks him. The next tick the AI for the second mob says I've got this one covered and so the third mob AI looks for and attacks the third player.
In the first case, assuming it's a tough matchup between the players and mobs, then you might need the main tank and healer to be min-maxed to have any chance of winning because the mob damage is concentrated whereas in the second case it might be easier to win if you had three min-maxed players but it wouldn't be as neccessary.
Somewhere among the many to many fight your group would need an overlap or advantage over the mobs but one of the generic roles in any group would be any build or play style that could keep one same level mob occupied for a reasonable length of time.
The trick is to Make it so the more people use the same combo the weaker it gets. this way they will keep their mouths shut.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
Hide the numbers and people will figure them out anyway.
The only way I see to circumvent min - maxing is add a larger focus on player skill, meaning both mental and physical skills. There would still be min - max builds out there but if someone sucks at what they are doing it doesn't much matter, so there would be more variables that players couldn't track about a player.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Wouldn't that just mean that the min-max would be different? Certain DPS classes might have to go for a bit more survivability or what have you. Not to mention in games that don't use an agro mechanic there already are optimal builds, like in NWN or BG2.
Really changing the mechanics of a fight like that isn't going to mean that there won't be an optimal way to do something. As with any RPG there are always optimal builds which perform better than others. It would be a nightmare as well to literally balance a game so that any play style or build would work. Perhaps with a game where there are less customability options. However even in a game like WoW it would be an impossible task to take on.
If someone can figure out a way for it to work though I, and any MMO developer, would be all ears to hear it.
Well i'm not sure it will work but the idea is more that the min-max stays exactly the same but is less important, example, three players enter a room with three mobs:
Option A) The three mobs follow the regular aggro mechanic and attack the nearest player (best tank) and it stays that way as long as the players don't mess up their aggro management.
Option
The three mobs attack the nearest player. On the next tick the AI for the first mob AI says this one is covered and so the AI for the other two looks for the next nearest player and attacks him. The next tick the AI for the second mob says I've got this one covered and so the third mob AI looks for and attacks the third player.
In the first case, assuming it's a tough matchup between the players and mobs, then you might need the main tank and healer to be min-maxed to have any chance of winning because the mob damage is concentrated whereas in the second case it might be easier to win if you had three min-maxed players but it wouldn't be as neccessary.
Somewhere among the many to many fight your group would need an overlap or advantage over the mobs but one of the generic roles in any group would be any build or play style that could keep one same level mob occupied for a reasonable length of time.
A balanced, even if primitive, system is one that takes into consideration that 3 players can kill each monster faster. So, the rate at which 1 player gains xp can be the same as the rate at which 3 players together gain xp. So, make tanks have 4 times as many hps as any other class and let them tank 1 monster super easy if they are soloing or tank 3 monsters simultaneously while paying attention to the health bar.
The trick is to Make it so the more people use the same combo the weaker it gets. this way they will keep their mouths shut.
This is a great idea and would help prevent cookie cutters. You'd try to produce something that works, but not what every one else uses.
It sort of makes sense to. Mobs just get used to fighting predictable players.
Another way to stop min maxers is to have more variables affecting the damage, things like elemental buffs, weather, time etc. Make the maths non-linear and mob specific weaknesses to certain weapons or attacks. Finally armour changinf should not be possible during combat and weapon switching should take the expected amount of time.