Haha, oh yeah. I hope we'll say "Oh that makes sense" and not the other way around. I think some way of "leveling" will exist, but this time around it's leveling your weapons instead.
Yeah it will Im not sure where i saw it but they said that you lvl your sword skill thats what lvls your char. The way i see it its like the standard weapon skillpoint sistem FFXI had only thing is your not gona be asking wheres the lvl 20 mobs it gona be wheres the 75-90 weapon skill area or something like that
Plus for getting the higher WS your probably gona have to do some old school FFXI grinding in a party. Or at least thats what i heard
Well, there's a lot of speculation right now. Since they're targeting a much wider audience this time around, the part where you mention grinding in a group might play a role, but not close to as much it was "forced" in FFXI.
true but i doubt they will get rid of Party and be like WOW where you can solo everything. I honestly dont know how there gona balance the solo to party and keep the comunity that made FFXI so awesome.
That's the thing. I don't *know* what they're thinking, and I'm not going to assume I know more than they do about developing a game (that would be ridiculous)... But I know how players approach MMOs... especially when it comes to solo content.
If there's a path that allows players to solo their way through the game, that's what they will do. The impulse for people to play by themselves as much as possible is strong enough that even in FFXI, before Campaign, Level Sync and FoV, people found ways to solo... slower xp, fewer places to level... didn't matter. As long as they could level without having to group, it was perfect.
Introducing Campaign should have demonstrated to SE how strongly many people want to solo, avoiding parties like the plague. Parties began to become fewer and fewer. Then Level Sync came out, showing how people don't care what other aspects of their character are hindered (ie. skillups), as long as the xp comes in faster. So you have people leveling from 50 to 75 in level 20 Qufim Parties... making higher level parties even more scarce. And then the nail in the coffin... Fields of Valor, so now people avoid parties altogether and duo or solo FoVs.
Campaigning while waiting for a lower level'd Sync party, or doing FoV's, and then forming Skillup parties to catch up in the skills that have fallen behind has become "The Way You're Supposed To Play FFXI".
Used to be that people would say "Have you tried seeking?" or "Have you tried putting a party together?" Now it's "Just Campaign until you can find a level sync party", or "Just do FoV and level up that way. You don't need a party for that".
No exaggeration... It's been over a month, easily, since I've seen a normal xp party, of people playing at their actual levels, in a level-appropriate area, that wasn't a skillup party. You know... the way we used to.
The cumulative effect of those three things has largely killed FFXI for me, and for others I've spoken to.
So, again... if there's a feasible solo path through the game where people can do "well enough" without having to ever group with another player... that will become "The Way You're Supposed To Play FFXIV", it will be etched in stone, and group content will be essentially useless.
SE might be thinking "Well we'll have all these neat aspects to group content...." Won't matter. All players see is "fastest progress possible without having to group up so I can get to end-game faster". That's it. Anything outside those parameters is useless to them. This has been proven in MMO after MMO. They don't care how cool an area is, or how challenging a raid-type mob is... "Does it give good xp?" or "Does it have good drops?" is all they care about.
the more i think about it the less posisble it seems to me since the mobs have to just hard enough that a normal player can do it but a twink may still have a hard time plus whats the encentive to party when you can solo will it st be fast exp.
I cant wait to play the beta and find out while trying not to get my hopes to high.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I do like this new idea that SE is implementing. I will fee less confined, less cookie-cutterish. I also will be able to work on two weapon skill sets (for different character growths) neck and neck so I do not have to come back to the newbie areai three or more times unless I really want to!
From what I read on this game I find myself being a little suspiscious. I find that Im not so sure if it's all going to pan out. In the past Skill based advancement is absolute utter failure. Scripts and botting run rampant and no one really knows how to play all that well in such games.
Square-Enix tells us there will be no measure of EXP which, unless the skill system is a rep base, they are lying to us. Unless reps raise skill EXP HAS TO BE PRESENT. Not necessarily in the form we are used to... Next level 1,250 exp for example.
Then I realize Square Enix isn't a second rate game maker. In fact they are one of the very best RPG companies in the Video Game industry, so I shouldn't worry too much. I should have faith that Square-Enix above all other companies knows what they are doing when it comes to RPGs.... But this is a different market than RPGs this is MMORPG and the systems and stakes are higher, and Square-Enix has only made one MMORPG. Granted that ONE MMORPG was fantastic in it's day, then the untoppable titan came, Blizzard's brainchild WoW swept the market and even nearly demolished SoE's Everquest 2 in it's wake the arguable grandfather of MMO's. FFXI had been out for a few years and most of the player base was looking for some new meat to chew on so it wasnt that big of a surprise. SE had failed because they had made the game onesided. The game was entirely too dependant on party play, so much so that often it hindered their playerbase's ability to progress.
With problems such as relative few classes to heal in a game where either you had a healer in your party or you perished and waiting an eternity for these players to log on because everyone else wanted to play a "cool" class made getting EXP unbrearable. These design flaws became apparent when the next gen or MMOs emerged.
Now it seems we're looking at an opposite model of what we knew before. Classless, Skillbased, Solo play...
Two of these aspects bother me...
Classess and skill based systems strike an unnerved cord in my memories. I remember games like Ultima Online.. A game that was SO very seriously ridiculous when it came to balance and PK's it wasn't fun to play after a couple of weeks of trying to stay alive. UO possibly the very WORST MMO I have EVER had the displeasure of playing, had no classes and was entirely skill based. I sincerely hope Square-Enix takes the time to weigh their choices in systems, I hope they look at what problems these systems can cause and address them directly. I hope they don't offer deterents to abuse of the skill system but instead offer solutions. If there is going to be PvP I hope they place limitations on their classless system (the very last thing any game should have is mages running around in platemail nuking everyone in their path, giving them no chance to fight back because magic always overpowers physical) I hope they place restrictions anyway so everyone isn't the same, because in a classless system there can still be a cookie cutter syndrome.
But it's SE, and they've done so well in the past so maybe they will do well again.
The classless skill based system is a bit of a worry to me as well, since the games I have played that used it ended up having some problems, but as you said there will have to be some sort of exp, even if they don't call it that. I think the "no exp" headline is just that and we will just have a "progress bar" with a different name. I think the same may be true for the "class system", we don't have all the details yet, but I'm guessing that we will be collecting weapons/gear that will essentially make us into those old job names we all remember. So in the end I think the system will not be all together totally different. Also they have said they have no plans for PvP, but maybe some kind of "sports" later on. It will be different, but it's still going to be a final fantasy.
I've heard that FFXIV was going to be more gear dependant. This leads me to believe that stats will be heavily affected by what gear you are wearing (obviously.) So with that being said, Person A attempting to heal the party in plate armor would most likely pale in comparison to Person B wearing cloth armor. Again, this would be because the plate armor would most likely have high hp boost and low mp boost, think final fantasy tactics style. Add into this str and int modifiers, and you can see where this is going.
Changing weapons is how you change jobs. Ask yourself, what defines a job? For me that would be the skills available to said job. So here is Person A again in plate armor with his broad sword. Question is, does he even have access to Cure spells? Or is he required to run around with his staff in hand?
Here's another thought. What if the weapons all had modifiers on them, that said "Dark Knight" or "White Mage"? Would it then be possible to loot a 2handed axe with the modifier "Black Mage" on it? I don't know, but that seems awesome to me. Of course the 2handed axe would have stats suitable to a black mage, but probably not as a min/max awesome as a staff or wand. Perhaps that 2handed axe has close to those stats, but makes up for them by providing the black mage with a little bit of melee capabilities.
Take the idea of weapons having a class modifier on them, now add that there could be class skills, i.e. Fire, Cure, etc, and then consider that there could also be weapon skills. Backstab for daggers, range damage for wands, whatever. This could add even more customization into how certain classes would be played in the end.
Well, I'm just rambling now, no real insights or original ideas, just my thoughts on what could be...
I've heard that FFXIV was going to be more gear dependant. This leads me to believe that stats will be heavily affected by what gear you are wearing (obviously.) So with that being said, Person A attempting to heal the party in plate armor would most likely pale in comparison to Person B wearing cloth armor. Again, this would be because the plate armor would most likely have high hp boost and low mp boost, think final fantasy tactics style. Add into this str and int modifiers, and you can see where this is going. Changing weapons is how you change jobs. Ask yourself, what defines a job? For me that would be the skills available to said job. So here is Person A again in plate armor with his broad sword. Question is, does he even have access to Cure spells? Or is he required to run around with his staff in hand? Here's another thought. What if the weapons all had modifiers on them, that said "Dark Knight" or "White Mage"? Would it then be possible to loot a 2handed axe with the modifier "Black Mage" on it? I don't know, but that seems awesome to me. Of course the 2handed axe would have stats suitable to a black mage, but probably not as a min/max awesome as a staff or wand. Perhaps that 2handed axe has close to those stats, but makes up for them by providing the black mage with a little bit of melee capabilities. Take the idea of weapons having a class modifier on them, now add that there could be class skills, i.e. Fire, Cure, etc, and then consider that there could also be weapon skills. Backstab for daggers, range damage for wands, whatever. This could add even more customization into how certain classes would be played in the end. Well, I'm just rambling now, no real insights or original ideas, just my thoughts on what could be...
Those are actually good points and something I hadn't quite drew conclusions to yet.
The problem I see with some of those points however.. is in the aspects of certain cross over classes, meaning classes that are both physical and magically inclined. Paladins for instance are expected to be able to wear plate and cast light geared spells. Red Mages, another example are sort of jacks of all trades master of none, where will they fit in? I think in a sense everyone wants to see some definition in what "class/job" they are. Possibly it's a system where everyone starts as the same thing and how you train your skills is what you end up as, sort of FF Tactics style.
Basically I believe limitations and distinctions between what we are need to be there to some extent, even in a "freedom theory" type of game. Not so much that they stop us from customization but just enough to tell us hey.. you've trained in this skill and that skill you use a sword a shield and platemail and you can cast cure, protect, cura, shell, and raise, you have a little black magic under your belt and a few other non class specific things...So you're essentially a paladin, but maybe a paladin that can pickpockets, cast Stonaga, maybe use some Dark Knight abilities and can summon Carbuncle and Bahamut.. Not a bad deal really and fully customized but you know somewhere along the line that your base power is in being a paladin.
Ultimately i think SE will pull a rabbit out of a shoe or something to that effect. With every SE game I've played I know there are so many possabilities that it's simply mind boggling to speculate what they will do. Some of their games are so rigid in structure but so near perfection it's scarey while others are super customization for skills and abilities.
I think by the look of things and a feeling I have that FFXIV will open new doors in the MMORPG genre. I've seen games like Darkfall and such that promise total freedom, but I know in the end they won't pull it off with justice. I think a type of total freedom will exist in FFXIV but the difference is SE will do it justice.
"Yeah but you should know that SE rarely reuses things from different game Save CID, Airships, Chocobos, and magic.
Loads of ppl wanted the Gunblade from FFVIII back, It never saw the light of day again in FF series
Sure the new game sistem might be weird but being able to change jobs by changing weapons is amazing its like crap we lost the WHM does anyone else have skill not crap we gota hold up the party for 2 hours while a new WHM gets there
I dont know how many times I teleported my WHM ass to some place ran for an hour fought 3 mobs and group disbanded because they couldnt find a healer for 2 hours.
In WOW if something gets bogged down for like 15-30min they call it a night no dedication at all"
the silver haired kids in Advent Children had gun blades the looked pretty darn sweet too. Also don't Biggs and Wedge make an appearance in every game now in some capacity?
I wouldn't mind it (more like really welcome it) if SE tried out something new than simply offering rigid class systems. In mmo's like Eve, EQ and the upcoming Fallen-Earth having more freedom to develop skills and abilities based on individual choice does give the player a sense of uniqueness and forcing them to (hopefully) know the game and its dynamics more. If exp was like Merit Points and players got to select skills here and there, it could be both chaotic but refreshing and really interesting to see. Obviously they said the wpn being used will be a big factor but still alot of mystery on how that one goes.
That is one aspect of the game I am wary of and hoping turns out well as it is integral to gameplay fun. I hope it is at least as good as FF11's setup no matter what form it takes... but if it is less enjoyable , I will be wishing they had just reused FF11s.
Yeah but you should know that SE rarely reuses things from different game Save CID, Airships, Chocobos, and magic.
Loads of ppl wanted the Gunblade from FFVIII back, It never saw the light of day again in FF series
Sure the new game sistem might be weird but being able to change jobs by changing weapons is amazing its like crap we lost the WHM does anyone else have skill not crap we gota hold up the party for 2 hours while a new WHM gets there
I dont know how many times I teleported my WHM ass to some place ran for an hour fought 3 mobs and group disbanded because they couldnt find a healer for 2 hours.
In WOW if something gets bogged down for like 15-30min they call it a night no dedication at all
FF13 main character uses a gun blade, only difference is its more high tech because its transforms from gun to blade and vice versa.
From what I understand they are still discussing a "level cap" so right now im not sure how much potential the stat building will have. Could be awesome but I will settle for moderate.
Comments
I think that more FFXIV interviews will help us understand the concept of the game.
Yeah it will Im not sure where i saw it but they said that you lvl your sword skill thats what lvls your char. The way i see it its like the standard weapon skillpoint sistem FFXI had only thing is your not gona be asking wheres the lvl 20 mobs it gona be wheres the 75-90 weapon skill area or something like that
Plus for getting the higher WS your probably gona have to do some old school FFXI grinding in a party. Or at least thats what i heard
Well, there's a lot of speculation right now. Since they're targeting a much wider audience this time around, the part where you mention grinding in a group might play a role, but not close to as much it was "forced" in FFXI.
true but i doubt they will get rid of Party and be like WOW where you can solo everything. I honestly dont know how there gona balance the solo to party and keep the comunity that made FFXI so awesome.
That's the thing. I don't *know* what they're thinking, and I'm not going to assume I know more than they do about developing a game (that would be ridiculous)... But I know how players approach MMOs... especially when it comes to solo content.
If there's a path that allows players to solo their way through the game, that's what they will do. The impulse for people to play by themselves as much as possible is strong enough that even in FFXI, before Campaign, Level Sync and FoV, people found ways to solo... slower xp, fewer places to level... didn't matter. As long as they could level without having to group, it was perfect.
Introducing Campaign should have demonstrated to SE how strongly many people want to solo, avoiding parties like the plague. Parties began to become fewer and fewer. Then Level Sync came out, showing how people don't care what other aspects of their character are hindered (ie. skillups), as long as the xp comes in faster. So you have people leveling from 50 to 75 in level 20 Qufim Parties... making higher level parties even more scarce. And then the nail in the coffin... Fields of Valor, so now people avoid parties altogether and duo or solo FoVs.
Campaigning while waiting for a lower level'd Sync party, or doing FoV's, and then forming Skillup parties to catch up in the skills that have fallen behind has become "The Way You're Supposed To Play FFXI".
Used to be that people would say "Have you tried seeking?" or "Have you tried putting a party together?" Now it's "Just Campaign until you can find a level sync party", or "Just do FoV and level up that way. You don't need a party for that".
No exaggeration... It's been over a month, easily, since I've seen a normal xp party, of people playing at their actual levels, in a level-appropriate area, that wasn't a skillup party. You know... the way we used to.
The cumulative effect of those three things has largely killed FFXI for me, and for others I've spoken to.
So, again... if there's a feasible solo path through the game where people can do "well enough" without having to ever group with another player... that will become "The Way You're Supposed To Play FFXIV", it will be etched in stone, and group content will be essentially useless.
SE might be thinking "Well we'll have all these neat aspects to group content...." Won't matter. All players see is "fastest progress possible without having to group up so I can get to end-game faster". That's it. Anything outside those parameters is useless to them. This has been proven in MMO after MMO. They don't care how cool an area is, or how challenging a raid-type mob is... "Does it give good xp?" or "Does it have good drops?" is all they care about.
the more i think about it the less posisble it seems to me since the mobs have to just hard enough that a normal player can do it but a twink may still have a hard time plus whats the encentive to party when you can solo will it st be fast exp.
I cant wait to play the beta and find out while trying not to get my hopes to high.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Well, we now know there will be a class system instead of a job one. Thoughts?
FFXIVCore.com - Final Fantasy XIV Fansite.
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I do like this new idea that SE is implementing. I will fee less confined, less cookie-cutterish. I also will be able to work on two weapon skill sets (for different character growths) neck and neck so I do not have to come back to the newbie areai three or more times unless I really want to!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Final Fantasy XIV Core - Final Fantasy XIV Fansite
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FFXIVCore.com on Facebook
Indeed, less cookie cutter classes gives you more options when it comes to groups and defeating your foes!
FFXIVCore.com - Final Fantasy XIV Fansite.
FFXIVCore.com on Facebook, Twitter, Square Enix Members, YouTube & RSS
From what I read on this game I find myself being a little suspiscious. I find that Im not so sure if it's all going to pan out. In the past Skill based advancement is absolute utter failure. Scripts and botting run rampant and no one really knows how to play all that well in such games.
Square-Enix tells us there will be no measure of EXP which, unless the skill system is a rep base, they are lying to us. Unless reps raise skill EXP HAS TO BE PRESENT. Not necessarily in the form we are used to... Next level 1,250 exp for example.
Then I realize Square Enix isn't a second rate game maker. In fact they are one of the very best RPG companies in the Video Game industry, so I shouldn't worry too much. I should have faith that Square-Enix above all other companies knows what they are doing when it comes to RPGs.... But this is a different market than RPGs this is MMORPG and the systems and stakes are higher, and Square-Enix has only made one MMORPG. Granted that ONE MMORPG was fantastic in it's day, then the untoppable titan came, Blizzard's brainchild WoW swept the market and even nearly demolished SoE's Everquest 2 in it's wake the arguable grandfather of MMO's. FFXI had been out for a few years and most of the player base was looking for some new meat to chew on so it wasnt that big of a surprise. SE had failed because they had made the game onesided. The game was entirely too dependant on party play, so much so that often it hindered their playerbase's ability to progress.
With problems such as relative few classes to heal in a game where either you had a healer in your party or you perished and waiting an eternity for these players to log on because everyone else wanted to play a "cool" class made getting EXP unbrearable. These design flaws became apparent when the next gen or MMOs emerged.
Now it seems we're looking at an opposite model of what we knew before. Classless, Skillbased, Solo play...
Two of these aspects bother me...
Classess and skill based systems strike an unnerved cord in my memories. I remember games like Ultima Online.. A game that was SO very seriously ridiculous when it came to balance and PK's it wasn't fun to play after a couple of weeks of trying to stay alive. UO possibly the very WORST MMO I have EVER had the displeasure of playing, had no classes and was entirely skill based. I sincerely hope Square-Enix takes the time to weigh their choices in systems, I hope they look at what problems these systems can cause and address them directly. I hope they don't offer deterents to abuse of the skill system but instead offer solutions. If there is going to be PvP I hope they place limitations on their classless system (the very last thing any game should have is mages running around in platemail nuking everyone in their path, giving them no chance to fight back because magic always overpowers physical) I hope they place restrictions anyway so everyone isn't the same, because in a classless system there can still be a cookie cutter syndrome.
But it's SE, and they've done so well in the past so maybe they will do well again.
The classless skill based system is a bit of a worry to me as well, since the games I have played that used it ended up having some problems, but as you said there will have to be some sort of exp, even if they don't call it that. I think the "no exp" headline is just that and we will just have a "progress bar" with a different name. I think the same may be true for the "class system", we don't have all the details yet, but I'm guessing that we will be collecting weapons/gear that will essentially make us into those old job names we all remember. So in the end I think the system will not be all together totally different. Also they have said they have no plans for PvP, but maybe some kind of "sports" later on. It will be different, but it's still going to be a final fantasy.
Well they want something new and usually SE does that well.
FFXIVCore.com - Final Fantasy XIV Fansite.
FFXIVCore.com on Facebook, Twitter, Square Enix Members, YouTube & RSS
I've heard that FFXIV was going to be more gear dependant. This leads me to believe that stats will be heavily affected by what gear you are wearing (obviously.) So with that being said, Person A attempting to heal the party in plate armor would most likely pale in comparison to Person B wearing cloth armor. Again, this would be because the plate armor would most likely have high hp boost and low mp boost, think final fantasy tactics style. Add into this str and int modifiers, and you can see where this is going.
Changing weapons is how you change jobs. Ask yourself, what defines a job? For me that would be the skills available to said job. So here is Person A again in plate armor with his broad sword. Question is, does he even have access to Cure spells? Or is he required to run around with his staff in hand?
Here's another thought. What if the weapons all had modifiers on them, that said "Dark Knight" or "White Mage"? Would it then be possible to loot a 2handed axe with the modifier "Black Mage" on it? I don't know, but that seems awesome to me. Of course the 2handed axe would have stats suitable to a black mage, but probably not as a min/max awesome as a staff or wand. Perhaps that 2handed axe has close to those stats, but makes up for them by providing the black mage with a little bit of melee capabilities.
Take the idea of weapons having a class modifier on them, now add that there could be class skills, i.e. Fire, Cure, etc, and then consider that there could also be weapon skills. Backstab for daggers, range damage for wands, whatever. This could add even more customization into how certain classes would be played in the end.
Well, I'm just rambling now, no real insights or original ideas, just my thoughts on what could be...
Lottery winners beware...I'm coming for you!
Those are actually good points and something I hadn't quite drew conclusions to yet.
The problem I see with some of those points however.. is in the aspects of certain cross over classes, meaning classes that are both physical and magically inclined. Paladins for instance are expected to be able to wear plate and cast light geared spells. Red Mages, another example are sort of jacks of all trades master of none, where will they fit in? I think in a sense everyone wants to see some definition in what "class/job" they are. Possibly it's a system where everyone starts as the same thing and how you train your skills is what you end up as, sort of FF Tactics style.
Basically I believe limitations and distinctions between what we are need to be there to some extent, even in a "freedom theory" type of game. Not so much that they stop us from customization but just enough to tell us hey.. you've trained in this skill and that skill you use a sword a shield and platemail and you can cast cure, protect, cura, shell, and raise, you have a little black magic under your belt and a few other non class specific things...So you're essentially a paladin, but maybe a paladin that can pickpockets, cast Stonaga, maybe use some Dark Knight abilities and can summon Carbuncle and Bahamut.. Not a bad deal really and fully customized but you know somewhere along the line that your base power is in being a paladin.
Ultimately i think SE will pull a rabbit out of a shoe or something to that effect. With every SE game I've played I know there are so many possabilities that it's simply mind boggling to speculate what they will do. Some of their games are so rigid in structure but so near perfection it's scarey while others are super customization for skills and abilities.
I think by the look of things and a feeling I have that FFXIV will open new doors in the MMORPG genre. I've seen games like Darkfall and such that promise total freedom, but I know in the end they won't pull it off with justice. I think a type of total freedom will exist in FFXIV but the difference is SE will do it justice.
Maybe I;m just rambling too tho.
Well, as I previously said - i welcome new ideas. It's nice not to have 'levels' for once.
FFXIVCore.com - Final Fantasy XIV Fansite.
FFXIVCore.com on Facebook, Twitter, Square Enix Members, YouTube & RSS
I wouldn't mind it (more like really welcome it) if SE tried out something new than simply offering rigid class systems. In mmo's like Eve, EQ and the upcoming Fallen-Earth having more freedom to develop skills and abilities based on individual choice does give the player a sense of uniqueness and forcing them to (hopefully) know the game and its dynamics more. If exp was like Merit Points and players got to select skills here and there, it could be both chaotic but refreshing and really interesting to see. Obviously they said the wpn being used will be a big factor but still alot of mystery on how that one goes.
Yeah but you should know that SE rarely reuses things from different game Save CID, Airships, Chocobos, and magic.
Loads of ppl wanted the Gunblade from FFVIII back, It never saw the light of day again in FF series
Sure the new game sistem might be weird but being able to change jobs by changing weapons is amazing its like crap we lost the WHM does anyone else have skill not crap we gota hold up the party for 2 hours while a new WHM gets there
I dont know how many times I teleported my WHM ass to some place ran for an hour fought 3 mobs and group disbanded because they couldnt find a healer for 2 hours.
In WOW if something gets bogged down for like 15-30min they call it a night no dedication at all
FF13 main character uses a gun blade, only difference is its more high tech because its transforms from gun to blade and vice versa.
From what I understand they are still discussing a "level cap" so right now im not sure how much potential the stat building will have. Could be awesome but I will settle for moderate.
We'll hopefully have more info from TGS soon.
FFXIVCore.com - Final Fantasy XIV Fansite.
FFXIVCore.com on Facebook, Twitter, Square Enix Members, YouTube & RSS