That's why I say its going to take a miracle. VG's population is as small as anything, but think of how many in the game are actually trying to get the game out. Not many. Most just stop bothering because of SOE's business model. I understand their model also. But at this time, 3 years later, some players just said forget it and play their game. SOE needs to give another reason to bring in players, I mean hell this may be far-fetched but if they say "We get x number of recruited players we'll be able to get another dev" or an incentive. A refer-a-friend program always comes to mind. But we know the expenses, it will take a ton of new players along keeping older players to jut out some new support from SOE.
I suppose it could be considered a miracle by some. ;p I agree, something more should come from SOE's end...but knowing how their system works, it's largely in our hands. Anyway...I think I'm going to log in now for some VG fun. I'll leave it with this, to everyone in general: If this game thrives or dies, it will have been determined by gamers, not SOE. Hopefully people who enjoy such features offered by VG won't let a good game die, but we gamers can be a fickle lot and it can certainly happen. Would be a shame...VG offers a lot that other games don't have the guts/desire/ability to.
If not so many of us had had to deal with $OE before- Then it would (possibly) be up to the players.
$OE has the worst reputation in MMO's by a longshot- And they did that to themselves. Thats why Vangard will never be a success- Because $OE is a company to avoid (although they probably have the most potential GAMEWISE) and until $OE does something to change their reputation (by making the first "move" as it were) they will continue to be avoided and will continue to adapt towards RMT and FTP games (and hybrids) which will further erode their base .
$OE seems to be moving into a direction many despise- $OE is unwilling to advertise in traditional methods (they claim "word of mouth" is the only way) $OE is unwilling to listen to their players and has the shoddiest C.S. team on the planet. $OE pays Mods to "overly moderate" ANYTHING CRITICAL from their Forum but wont pay devs to fix known issues. (in other words they pay for "damage control" rather than fixing things to begin with.)
$OE wants "word of mouth" advertising? Then $OE should start to care (about more than cutting cost's and upping profit margins) because word of mouth on $OE products is NOT GOOD.
Anyhow- VG has/had great potential but due to $OE (not their customers) its destined to flop.
It's still up to the players. You hate SOE, I think people get that, but SOE isn't some evil demonic force out to destroy the gaming world. They're a business, and they made a serious miscalculation with one of their business decisions. Seems they may have learned from it, and maybe they are striving to make some sort of amends for it. Heck, they're giving another go with Planetside, so we'll see how that one turns out.
SOE has, for a long time, refused to advertise for all of their games in their stable, unless that game is successful enough that it can budget for it, and then choose to advertise themselves. So far as their C.S. team, I've never had issues with them and have always received a pretty prompt response to any C.S.-related issues that have cropped up in VG (which haven't been many, admittedly). Nor have I seen a great deal of harsh moderation occuring at the VG forum. I see enough critical, but well thought-out posts, on the forums that have been there for a good while, so that makes your claims a tad difficult to believe. Apparently the "nazi moderation" isn't, perhaps, so rampant.
Again, it won't be due to SOE that VG fails or succeeds, but players. Because that, it appears, is how SOE's business model works these days.
You not seeing heavy moderation on the VG boards shows how little you know about their moderation. The VG boards have got to be the most over-moderated MMO forums I have ever been in. There are well thought out posts all the time, and yet they still get banned?
Originally posted by Abalis It's still up to the players. You hate SOE, I think people get that, but SOE isn't some evil demonic force out to destroy the gaming world. They're a business, and they made a serious miscalculation with one of their business decisions. Seems they may have learned from it, and maybe they are striving to make some sort of amends for it. Heck, they're giving another go with Planetside, so we'll see how that one turns out. SOE has, for a long time, refused to advertise for all of their games in their stable, unless that game is successful enough that it can budget for it, and then choose to advertise themselves. So far as their C.S. team, I've never had issues with them and have always received a pretty prompt response to any C.S.-related issues that have cropped up in VG (which haven't been many, admittedly). Nor have I seen a great deal of harsh moderation occuring at the VG forum. I see enough critical, but well thought-out posts, on the forums that have been there for a good while, so that makes your claims a tad difficult to believe. Apparently the "nazi moderation" isn't, perhaps, so rampant. Again, it won't be due to SOE that VG fails or succeeds, but players. Because that, it appears, is how SOE's business model works these days.
SOE used to advertise their games and they have a whole project devoted to that with Platform Publishing. Soe knows how to advertise a game. This notion that soe games would be more popular if only they would advertise is nonsense. Soe isn't that stupid and they have the figures for how successful (or not) their advertising campaigns have been. Soe used to advertise their games very heavily which leaves the question as to why they no longer do that. There seems to be this never ending stream of excuses to place blame for the lack of success of soe games on anything other than the gameplay.
If a game isn't good enough to retain players with the gameplay it offers, then all the advertising in the world will not get people to stay. If a game is as good as people keep making claims then it will grow by word of mouth without advertising. Even without advertising it will grow, because the great gameplay will attract people.
Vanguard isn't going to die as a result of players. Soe has made it very clear they are not supporting this game to the level it needs.
Why should players be held responsible for not rushing to fund a game that the host company obviously is not willing to do. If soe put forth enough effort to even give the appearance they were going to support this game, then maybe more players would stick around. Why anyone expects players to thrust money on soe for no reason and then HOPE soe spends that money on developers to support the game is laughable. Soe would either take that money to fund one of their future projects or use it to create some new way to remove content and resell it to the players as loot cards, cash shop of some other sort of nonsense.
It really is funny to hear people think that soe is somehow going to turn their attention towards their older games in an effort to revitalize them.
There is a reason soe is cutting support and development for all their current released mmos. None of them have growth potential.
That's why I say its going to take a miracle. VG's population is as small as anything, but think of how many in the game are actually trying to get the game out. Not many. Most just stop bothering because of SOE's business model. I understand their model also. But at this time, 3 years later, some players just said forget it and play their game. SOE needs to give another reason to bring in players, I mean hell this may be far-fetched but if they say "We get x number of recruited players we'll be able to get another dev" or an incentive. A refer-a-friend program always comes to mind. But we know the expenses, it will take a ton of new players along keeping older players to jut out some new support from SOE.
I suppose it could be considered a miracle by some. ;p I agree, something more should come from SOE's end...but knowing how their system works, it's largely in our hands. Anyway...I think I'm going to log in now for some VG fun. I'll leave it with this, to everyone in general: If this game thrives or dies, it will have been determined by gamers, not SOE. Hopefully people who enjoy such features offered by VG won't let a good game die, but we gamers can be a fickle lot and it can certainly happen. Would be a shame...VG offers a lot that other games don't have the guts/desire/ability to.
If not so many of us had had to deal with $OE before- Then it would (possibly) be up to the players.
$OE has the worst reputation in MMO's by a longshot- And they did that to themselves. Thats why Vangard will never be a success- Because $OE is a company to avoid (although they probably have the most potential GAMEWISE) and until $OE does something to change their reputation (by making the first "move" as it were) they will continue to be avoided and will continue to adapt towards RMT and FTP games (and hybrids) which will further erode their base .
$OE seems to be moving into a direction many despise- $OE is unwilling to advertise in traditional methods (they claim "word of mouth" is the only way) $OE is unwilling to listen to their players and has the shoddiest C.S. team on the planet. $OE pays Mods to "overly moderate" ANYTHING CRITICAL from their Forum but wont pay devs to fix known issues. (in other words they pay for "damage control" rather than fixing things to begin with.)
$OE wants "word of mouth" advertising? Then $OE should start to care (about more than cutting cost's and upping profit margins) because word of mouth on $OE products is NOT GOOD.
Anyhow- VG has/had great potential but due to $OE (not their customers) its destined to flop.
It's still up to the players. You hate SOE, I think people get that, but SOE isn't some evil demonic force out to destroy the gaming world. They're a business, and they made a serious miscalculation with one of their business decisions. Seems they may have learned from it, and maybe they are striving to make some sort of amends for it. Heck, they're giving another go with Planetside, so we'll see how that one turns out.
SOE has, for a long time, refused to advertise for all of their games in their stable, unless that game is successful enough that it can budget for it, and then choose to advertise themselves. So far as their C.S. team, I've never had issues with them and have always received a pretty prompt response to any C.S.-related issues that have cropped up in VG (which haven't been many, admittedly). Nor have I seen a great deal of harsh moderation occuring at the VG forum. I see enough critical, but well thought-out posts, on the forums that have been there for a good while, so that makes your claims a tad difficult to believe. Apparently the "nazi moderation" isn't, perhaps, so rampant.
Again, it won't be due to SOE that VG fails or succeeds, but players. Because that, it appears, is how SOE's business model works these days.
You not seeing heavy moderation on the VG boards shows how little you know about their moderation. The VG boards have got to be the most over-moderated MMO forums I have ever been in. There are well thought out posts all the time, and yet they still get banned?
I've seen moderation on the boards, but I log in there and I see quite a number of critical posts towards SOE (in particular) and frustrated criticism with VG not getting what it needs. The posts are still up there and not everyone is getting banned for them. Perhaps those who are getting banned should look at the difference between their posts (and history of posts) versus those who are critical yet remain unbanned. Might be something there to consider.
Originally posted by Abalis It's still up to the players. You hate SOE, I think people get that, but SOE isn't some evil demonic force out to destroy the gaming world. They're a business, and they made a serious miscalculation with one of their business decisions. Seems they may have learned from it, and maybe they are striving to make some sort of amends for it. Heck, they're giving another go with Planetside, so we'll see how that one turns out. SOE has, for a long time, refused to advertise for all of their games in their stable, unless that game is successful enough that it can budget for it, and then choose to advertise themselves. So far as their C.S. team, I've never had issues with them and have always received a pretty prompt response to any C.S.-related issues that have cropped up in VG (which haven't been many, admittedly). Nor have I seen a great deal of harsh moderation occuring at the VG forum. I see enough critical, but well thought-out posts, on the forums that have been there for a good while, so that makes your claims a tad difficult to believe. Apparently the "nazi moderation" isn't, perhaps, so rampant. Again, it won't be due to SOE that VG fails or succeeds, but players. Because that, it appears, is how SOE's business model works these days.
SOE used to advertise their games and they have a whole project devoted to that with Platform Publishing. Soe knows how to advertise a game. This notion that soe games would be more popular if only they would advertise is nonsense. Soe isn't that stupid and they have the figures for how successful (or not) their advertising campaigns have been. Soe used to advertise their games very heavily which leaves the question as to why they no longer do that. There seems to be this never ending stream of excuses to place blame for the lack of success of soe games on anything other than the gameplay.
I'm not saying SOE doesn't know how to advertise for games. I'm saying their current business decisions are such that it is now in the players' hands as to whether VG (and many other games in the SOE stable) succeeds. Don't know how much clearer I can make it. A game's lack of success is, ultimately, determined not by gameplay (although that most certainly plays a very significant role in the core reason) but by subscriptions. Paying customers.
If a game isn't good enough to retain players with the gameplay it offers, then all the advertising in the world will not get people to stay. If a game is as good as people keep making claims then it will grow by word of mouth without advertising. Even without advertising it will grow, because the great gameplay will attract people.
VG, apparently, is good enough to grow, because it has been growing (albeit slowly). Here's the thing...VG does retain players, and there are a good portion of players who will play VG for a while, then break for a spell in another game, but return to VG after their break. This is normal amongst mmo's, the only difference being that Vanguard has a smaller subscriber base than more wildly popular mmo's.
And yes, Vanguard is a good game, which is why it is growing by word-of-mouth. That's what all of this thread is, you know...word-of-mouth by players. To help the game grow. Because it has no advertising. It is growing (slowly, due to many variables with quite a number of them outside their control). But without word-of-mouth, people won't have much of an idea as to what VG is. Players won't know what it's about. So without this word-of-mouth, the game won't grow except for those fortunate enough to stumble onto it in a random search for a game (which is how I came to know of it, before its release).
Vanguard isn't going to die as a result of players. Soe has made it very clear they are not supporting this game to the level it needs.
Actually, yes, Vanguard's success or failure is a result of players. ANY game's success or death is a result of players subscribing or not subscribing. SOE, again, is supporting this game to the level it does with its other Station Exchange games. Regardless of their yesteryear policies, their current business practice(s) is to pump money into a new(er) game at first, and then to cut the umbilical cord and let the market decide if that game thrives or dies, and to leave that game to survive on its own merits. I believe even the VG devs have made this clear. This isn't a case of SOE wanting to "stifle" VG or kill it slowly...it's just SOE being SOE.
Would any game benefit in some capacity if a publisher poured oodles of money into it regardless of its popularity? Probably, but that just isn't the business model SOE is going with; they're going to let the market decide, and they'll offer support like a distant parent (if you will). Not as a helicopter parent.
Why should players be held responsible for not rushing to fund a game that the host company obviously is not willing to do. If soe put forth enough effort to even give the appearance they were going to support this game, then maybe more players would stick around. Why anyone expects players to thrust money on soe for no reason and then HOPE soe spends that money on developers to support the game is laughable. Soe would either take that money to fund one of their future projects or use it to create some new way to remove content and resell it to the players as loot cards, cash shop of some other sort of nonsense.
Frankly, it's obvious SOE is willing to put forth the same effort they are for any other games in their stable. Again, this comes down to understanding how SOE now operates. Players need to decide for themselves if they enjoy a particular game and want to see it succeed. MMO's are a strange creature with each party benefiting the other...players support a game, a game gives players what the players are there for. It's a symbiotic relationship, almost, except it's the game that has everything to lose. Gamers' survival does not depend on a game, but a game's survival does depend on gamers.
I've repeated time and again what SOE's business practice is. Think of them as the distant parent who lets their kid succeed or fall on their own accomplishments, offering support but not holding their hand. What some gamers seem to want, or think a game should have, is a helicopter parent that hovers over their kid(game) and feeds them praise and rewards all they want regardless of that kid's true accomplishments. Players of said game would love that, of course, because that means that game's getting oodles of cash for stuff...but the problem from a business perspective is that a company is unnecessarily throwing money at a game that isn't earning its way, and thus will not strive to. It might not make the returns such an investment would warrant. That's almost suicide for any business, since even large companies (especially with stockholders to answer to) need to watch that bottom line. If you keep going into the red, you're going to fall hard. And you might not be able to get back up.
It really is funny to hear people think that soe is somehow going to turn their attention towards their older games in an effort to revitalize them.
EQ? Planetside? Successful, and even not quite so successful games, can garner attention. It again depends on their merits. It also largely depends on the gamers themselves. VG itself, like many other games in the stable, needs to grow and stand on its own. SOE will be that distant parent, offering some support, but VG will have to earn its way. When there are more subscribers for VG, VG will have more resources. Simple as that. With Station Exchange, it operates a little differently and funds are divided between game activity. So again, the more population within VG, the more funding it will get via that. This isn't a red-head stepchild syndrome, it's just business.
There is a reason soe is cutting support and development for all their current released mmos. None of them have growth potential.
The only letdown for me was the world was so big that I felt all alone in it.
I am currently waiting on Aion, but, keeping vanguard in mind, as I really want an awesome pve game to play
That is one thing to consider, is that VG's world is massive and more like a world than a set of boxes tied together that keep players funneled together, and that can definitely create a sense of being alone in the world. It's not for everyone, but for people like me looking for that element of "something more", it's a boon. Of course...that also means learning to not be the wallflower its so easy to be. Heck, it's tough for me to step out of my shell and be more socially "active" in-game, and that's what you have to do when people can all-too-easily disappear into that world.
I've said it elsewhere...I think there's a reason a lot of new games go the route of zones and instances. Not because massive, seamless worlds are technologically unfeasible (because VG proves they are), but because their target market desires that sense of people popping everywhere at the seams, and zones facilitate that sense of insane population and business everywhere (since everything's contained).
Then you have a game like Vanguard that decides to not funnel people together. Instead, they create this massive world and just drop people there...and people can go wherever they want. So people spread out in all directions (since there are no funnel points or contained boxes/zones) and it can seem very lonely. And it can definitely take more effort than in games with zones to find that social element, because people are spread out everywhere. I personally love that element of playing in a game that's more of a "world" versus playing in a game where the world is a series of boxes (not a slam against games with zones, please don't misunderstand...it's all just different game design philosophies). But I do know that takes a lot of getting used to for other players, and it's certainly not to everyone's taste. ^^
Just got finished playing VG for a couple of days and I'm not sure what people see in it. Some things are ok but overall it's nothing fresh. What astonished me though was the sheer amount of bugs, I simply couldn't believe it. How long has it been now, two years or so? How in the world could there be so many game-breaking group loot issues, getting stuck, and other stupid bugs after all this time? *baffled*
Bleh, worth the free trial I suppose for those looking for something...anything. But I'm not giving SOE my cash for that garbage. It's obvious they don't care about the game if they haven't fixed the serious bugs that I saw.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Just got finished playing VG for a couple of days and I'm not sure what people see in it. Some things are ok but overall it's nothing fresh. What astonished me though was the sheer amount of bugs, I simply couldn't believe it. How long has it been now, two years or so? How in the world could there be so many game-breaking group loot issues, getting stuck, and other stupid bugs after all this time? *baffled* Bleh, worth the free trial I suppose for those looking for something...anything. But I'm not giving SOE my cash for that garbage. It's obvious they don't care about the game if they haven't fixed the serious bugs that I saw.
That's odd that you'd run into so many game breaking bugs; hopefully you were able to report them. I know when I went through there a couple of months ago, I ran into only a few graphical bugs...but who knows, perhaps something's cropped up. So far as your opinion of the game...I suppose I'll just say that's your opinion, but VG does offer things few other mmo's offer...so...don't know what you were looking for that you'd consider "fresh."
Just got finished playing VG for a couple of days and I'm not sure what people see in it. Some things are ok but overall it's nothing fresh. What astonished me though was the sheer amount of bugs, I simply couldn't believe it. How long has it been now, two years or so? How in the world could there be so many game-breaking group loot issues, getting stuck, and other stupid bugs after all this time? *baffled* Bleh, worth the free trial I suppose for those looking for something...anything. But I'm not giving SOE my cash for that garbage. It's obvious they don't care about the game if they haven't fixed the serious bugs that I saw.
I haven't really seen any serious bugs in a long long time. The game will always seem creaky but I've been able to play without any issues. Some chugging here and there and I seem to remember some odd thing happening with a skill but can't really remember what it is.
I doubt (but one could hope) that Vanguard will ever be as polished as WoW or Aion or *insert game here* but for people who want a huge world to explore and can overlook a few issues, the game offers some nice things.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I like it. I played to lvl 10 on the isle and didn't run into anything game-breaking. From a first impression, the only thing I can see as glaringly "wrong" with VG is the steep system requirements you need to get some good graphical performance out of it. But of course peoples opinion of good graphical performance can vary a lot. I wish character animations were more fluidly animated, I'd be soooo hooked.
It goes without saying that a game needs subscribers to be successful. However people also need to have faith that a game is going to progress in order to invest their time in a game.
Lets say for example that soe halts development of vanguard, then there is nothing the players can do to make this game successful. It will die unless people just want to pour cash into a game that is never going anywhere like soe did with MxO, planetside, eq mac, eqoa, etc.
Is soe supporting the game right now, sure. At the same time they have been slashing and cutting development of the game since the moment they acquired it. Recently the former producer left the project and didn't even write up a goodbye post. The current producer was pulled off vanguard to work on some non-vanguard related project for an undisclosed amount of time. Even the few dev cycles the games gets are terribly delayed.
I don't understand how any of this translates into the players responsibility for the games success or failure. Putting the blame on players is like throwing a hail mary pass with a healthy dose of guilt. Soe is abandoning this game and the end results of vanguard will be a direct result of soes level of support. You cannot blame players for not wanting to flock to a game that is being mothballed and then blame them for not saving it.
A game needs a player developer relationship to succeed and the burder for making vanguard a successful investment cannot be entirely one of the players. Soe owns the product and it is their investment to risk their development dollars on. As you have said (I agree) their current risk management is to only allocate money based on each games subscriber level which is why they are a company full of dead games.
Furthermore there is no guarantee that soe will increase development resources in relationship to increased subscribers. You yourself claims vanguard is increasing, but support is decreasing.
Also your claim that the game is growing doesn't sound very convincing. I can find threads on this forum from around a year ago that showed around 1,500 online to be the lowest amount of players on the smallest server. Not to long ago there was a thread where current players say 1,000 is the most players online on the highest populated server.
@Abalis It goes without saying that a game needs subscribers to be successful. However people also need to have faith that a game is going to progress in order to invest their time in a game. I agree with your sentiment. People don't want to play a game that they feel is going to shut down in a month...but VG hasn't reached that point yet. Yeah, development of stuff is slower than in other games...smaller dev team definitely means slower updates. At the same time, however, VG has remained consistent in releasing new/updated content and patches to major issues that pop up have been fairly timely. Additionally, the dev team for VG has some pretty long-term plans for "projects" for VG...the biggest of which is Nexus, which is slated for further into the future from what players can surmise. All of this is contingent on VG's current state, of course. I will grant that if subs take a nosedive for whatever reason, the long-term survivability of the game in significantly hindered. But if subs increase to such a point, then perhaps we'll finally see faster content arrive due to more resources being available to VG. Problem is, of course, subs need to be consistent and enough to support, say, the salary of another dev team member, in addition to all the upkeep costs, etc. Basically...VG still has a shot...and probably a better one that most other games that would face similar predicaments. Yes, the pop is lower than in other more popular games (although Seradon/Xeth probably have populations more akin to a lot of popular games' servers, since everyone and their uncle rolls a toon there. ), but they're still developing new content for it (and yes, I know, there are games that have shut down despite that, but I think the situation with VG is a bit different), and the devs are looking very long-term. Lets say for example that soe halts development of vanguard, then there is nothing the players can do to make this game successful. It will die unless people just want to pour cash into a game that is never going anywhere like soe did with MxO, planetside, eq mac, eqoa, etc. Oh, definitely, if SOE pulls the plug they pull the plug. I hope sincerely they would sell off the game to a publisher who'd support VG, but I know chances are such that they wouldn't. Which would be a shame considering the current crop of MMO's being developed...some of which are promising, but none which deliver the package VG currently does. *sigh* Believe me, I wish more games would take a page from VG, but oh well. I can definitely understand why many wouldn't...but VG's design is solidly good. Is soe supporting the game right now, sure. At the same time they have been slashing and cutting development of the game since the moment they acquired it. Recently the former producer left the project and didn't even write up a goodbye post. The current producer was pulled off vanguard to work on some non-vanguard related project for an undisclosed amount of time. Even the few dev cycles the games gets are terribly delayed. Actually, Silius did say he should be back before the end of the year, and he has been popping in as recently as a couple days ago (judging by when he posted last). He hasn't completely abandoned the project, but I do agree it can be rather disheartening to see him go. That said, content is still being developed while he's away, just some of the "bigger" things are being waited on for his full return. SOE doesn't baby games...a game's going to make it or break it on its own. SOE slashed the team down to what the game itself could support, and if the game wants more it's going to have to earn its way...like the rest of the established games in SOE's stable. Personally, I agree with the sentiment that SOE should do more for VG...I'm sure most players of their other games would wish the same thing...but I do understand what SOE is doing and, at least to a degree, why. I don't understand how any of this translates into the players responsibility for the games success or failure. Putting the blame on players is like throwing a hail mary pass with a healthy dose of guilt. Soe is abandoning this game and the end results of vanguard will be a direct result of soes level of support. You cannot blame players for not wanting to flock to a game that is being mothballed and then blame them for not saving it. Eh...it's not about guilt, it's about business. That's all. SOE isn't "abandoning" VG anymore than it "abandons" any of its other games. Again, VG/"insert any established SOE game" must earn its way and what it gets/has is what it can support for itself. That's why I say it's in the players' hands if VG (or any other SOE game) survives. That's just SOE's strategy...it allows the game developers themselves more autonomy in what direction they'd take the game, but it also places more of the responsibility for their game's success on their shoulders (and subsequently the players who fund what each game can support). A game needs a player developer relationship to succeed and the burder for making vanguard a successful investment cannot be entirely one of the players. Soe owns the product and it is their investment to risk their development dollars on. As you have said (I agree) their current risk management is to only allocate money based on each games subscriber level which is why they are a company full of dead games. I agree with what you're saying. SOE should take a more proactive approach with supporting their current stable of games (and even future ones), but they haven't so I'm working off the reality of what is, not what I wish it would be. And yeah, I agree that it definitely helps to have that player-developer relationship, or at least a good CS team to play messenger between them. Furthermore there is no guarantee that soe will increase development resources in relationship to increased subscribers. You yourself claims vanguard is increasing, but support is decreasing. True, there are no guarantees in life. But if SOE is correct in how it handles its business, then it goes to show that VG's lot will improve with more resources. Also, how it gets those resources varies. If you subscribe directly to VG, then that money goes more directly to VG. If you use the Station Pass, then all the money from that is pooled together then allocated to each SP game according to what it warrants (read: activity/sub population). That's why I sub directly to VG, and don't use the SP, although SP certainly does help VG (albeit more indirectly). Support is still ongoing...VG is still getting new/updated content and patches. It's still breathing. Also your claim that the game is growing doesn't sound very convincing. I can find threads on this forum from around a year ago that showed around 1,500 online to be the lowest amount of players on the smallest server. Not to long ago there was a thread where current players say 1,000 is the most players online on the highest populated server. Heh, no one really knows how many people, exactly, are on a server. People can try to guesstimate, but that's about it. That said, I've noticed more newbies running around and trying out the game than I did before, and areas I play in now are more active than they were when last time I played. I've also noticed server activity being ranked at Medium more and more often, which would have been almost unheard of before. So when I say "pop is increasing," I'm basing that on the activity I'm seeing. Not scientific, I'll admit, but it's the best I've got.
I like it. I played to lvl 10 on the isle and didn't run into anything game-breaking. From a first impression, the only thing I can see as glaringly "wrong" with VG is the steep system requirements you need to get some good graphical performance out of it. But of course peoples opinion of good graphical performance can vary a lot. I wish character animations were more fluidly animated, I'd be soooo hooked.
I agree with you about character models. If they had more players, they'd have more funding, and then able to make new character models.
Vanguard.. . Great PVE. . . Great Crafting. . . currently ran by SoE. no thankyou.
I felt the stir of wantin to resub to Vanguard. started at 7am this morning and started to download the isle of dawn(was gonna make a whole new char and stuff) well when the download started, said estimated time of download was 6 bloody hours(btw i'm on cable internet) contacted SoE, and they stated that it was because of my ports and stuff in my router. So i contacted my router rep and spent an hour gettin my Router Just like SoE wanted. Guess what. NO CHANGES. So i contacted SoE again and they wanted me to send them system files and stuff. I guess I should mention that this happened previously with EQ2. well long story short I'm chatting with a TSR for SoE around 2:45 pm told her to pls refund my money cause I was dumb to think SoE was gonna do anything right when it came to gaming. Who knows mayby you all can download the game super fast. but it seems when i tried to download SoE games(SWG, EQ2, Vanguard) i have to spend 2+ days with the comp running day and night just to getthe full games downloaded. I mean Turbine fixed that problem(you can download LOTR or D&DO and play the newbie area while the full content downloads)
bottom Line Vanguard is a Great game, it just needs 2 things.
Vanguard.. . Great PVE. . . Great Crafting. . . currently ran by SoE. no thankyou.
I felt the stir of wantin to resub to Vanguard. started at 7am this morning and started to download the isle of dawn(was gonna make a whole new char and stuff) well when the download started, said estimated time of download was 6 bloody hours(btw i'm on cable internet) contacted SoE, and they stated that it was because of my ports and stuff in my router. So i contacted my router rep and spent an hour gettin my Router Just like SoE wanted. Guess what. NO CHANGES. So i contacted SoE again and they wanted me to send them system files and stuff. I guess I should mention that this happened previously with EQ2. well long story short I'm chatting with a TSR for SoE around 2:45 pm told her to pls refund my money cause I was dumb to think SoE was gonna do anything right when it came to gaming. Who knows mayby you all can download the game super fast. but it seems when i tried to download SoE games(SWG, EQ2, Vanguard) i have to spend 2+ days with the comp running day and night just to getthe full games downloaded. I mean Turbine fixed that problem(you can download LOTR or D&DO and play the newbie area while the full content downloads)
bottom Line Vanguard is a Great game, it just needs 2 things. a population and a Compitnt Gaming studio.
SO you downloaded the trial.. and it was so slow, so you contacted SoE and asked for your money refunded? Someone making up stories?
SO you downloaded the trial.. and it was so slow, so you contacted SoE and asked for your money refunded? Someone making up stories?
The station launcher is one of the worst pieces of software in the mmo industry. It really is a piece of crap and you can find many horror stories of people having horrible experiences with it.
I'm not saying the previous story is true. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't I don't know.
Vanguard.. . Great PVE. . . Great Crafting. . . currently ran by SoE. no thankyou.
I felt the stir of wantin to resub to Vanguard. started at 7am this morning and started to download the isle of dawn(was gonna make a whole new char and stuff) well when the download started, said estimated time of download was 6 bloody hours(btw i'm on cable internet) contacted SoE, and they stated that it was because of my ports and stuff in my router. So i contacted my router rep and spent an hour gettin my Router Just like SoE wanted. Guess what. NO CHANGES. So i contacted SoE again and they wanted me to send them system files and stuff. I guess I should mention that this happened previously with EQ2. well long story short I'm chatting with a TSR for SoE around 2:45 pm told her to pls refund my money cause I was dumb to think SoE was gonna do anything right when it came to gaming. Who knows mayby you all can download the game super fast. but it seems when i tried to download SoE games(SWG, EQ2, Vanguard) i have to spend 2+ days with the comp running day and night just to getthe full games downloaded. I mean Turbine fixed that problem(you can download LOTR or D&DO and play the newbie area while the full content downloads)
bottom Line Vanguard is a Great game, it just needs 2 things. a population and a Compitnt Gaming studio.
SO you downloaded the trial.. and it was so slow, so you contacted SoE and asked for your money refunded? Someone making up stories?
{Chat Log}
Hi, my name is TSR Stephanie B.. Please allow me a few moments to read your question. [12:18:01 PM]
darquies soe: oh my, i take it this is the same TSR i talked to last time [12:18:25 PM]
TSR Stephanie B.: Ok so you have completed everything that they asked? I will need files from you to look into the issue. Your account is fine and there is no reason why you should not be able to log into www.station.sony.com [12:21:40 PM]
darquies soe: yes i spent about an hour talkin with the linksys rep and now my router is configured just as SoE wishes it to be. But i am still getting the same problems, and my downloading of Vanguard is still the same time. So it would seem the problem is not on my end. but it would only seem. [12:23:06 PM]
TSR Stephanie B.: We will need to troubleshoot this issue further. I am going to send you an email that will instruct you on how to pull some files from your system. These files are system files that will give us a better perspective as to what is going on with your system. Please make sure that you provide an accurate description of the problem and the solutions that you have tried. The troubleshooting process will continue once support has received your response e-mail. [12:25:31 PM]
darquies soe: and how am i to get them to you? [12:25:58 PM]
@ [12:29:04 PM]
darquies soe: ok, you wish for ststem files, as long as they're not confidential, no probs. do you have a list? [12:29:42 PM]
TSR Stephanie B.: yes I will send you an email about all of them [12:30:35 PM]
darquies soe: how long will it take you to send the email. [12:30:50 PM]
TSR Stephanie B.: I will send it as soon as the chat ends [12:31:45 PM]
darquies soe: well, b4 u go one other question. when the isle of dawn finally downloads, how do i download the full game. and can i play isle of dawn while i wait for the full game to download? [12:33:17 PM]
TSR Stephanie B.: you have to wait for the full download before you try to play [12:35:37 PM]
darquies soe: that did not answer my question i think [12:35:53 PM]
darquies soe: are you telling me that i cannot play isle of dawn while the full game downloads? [12:36:17 PM]
TSR Stephanie B.: you can not play the game until it downloads. Trial or paid they are the same game just you are not paying for a trail [12:38:17 PM]
darquies soe: Greetings, The IoD installer just installs that area so it is a much smaller install. SOE download servers are very fast so with a fast enough connection an install time of under an hour is possible. If you are on a fast connection but getting an install time that long it is probably due to a blocked port in a router or security application, The following information might be helpful if you need to troubleshoot a connection that utilizes routers, switches, or software-based firewalls: The ports you will need to open for Vanguard are listed below: Vanguard.exe uses port 7000 Vgclient.exe uses ports 9000 and 10100-10132 Launchpad.exe uses ports 53, 80, 7000, 9700 When opening access to these be sure to set it for both TCP and UDP given the option. If you have any further issues please let us know. Regards, Edward R Sony Online Entertainment [12:40:15 PM]
darquies soe: that's from Ed and as you can see he says it's a much smaller install. if your Much smaller install is gonna take me bloody 6+ hours, i hate to think how long the full install is gonna do. not to mention the fact that you want me to email you some system files and stuff. i want to play a game, not spend a week tryin to get it downloaded in order to see if i want to come back. hence why i am asking if i can play the game while the rest is downloading [12:42:15 PM]
TSR Stephanie B.: No you can not play while downloading the game. Sorry [12:43:10 PM]
darquies soe: can u just refund my money. i just resubbed today and i really should had known better than to try to play a SoE game [12:43:23 PM]
TSR Stephanie B.: Gladly I have closed the account and will send the request for the refund to my Tier 2 [12:44:48 PM]
darquies soe: and you know your tier 2 will refund my money? [12:45:18 PM]
TSR Stephanie B.: yes it was a same day purchase is there anything else? [12:46:47 PM]
darquies soe: no, just refund my money, and i will go find another game to play. Seriously Steph, you should go work for WoW. they treated their players with a bit more respect than SoE could ever hope to imagine. i bet they would treat the TSR's with better stuff as well [12:48:13 PM]
darquies soe: One SEC [12:48:19 PM]
darquies soe: U said a same day purchase? i had previously purchased EQ2 as well, and to my shrigrin saw that they did not empliment as they said, i only played on that for an hour if that, can i get my refund back for that as well? [12:49:10 PM]
TSR Stephanie B.: Is there anything else I can assist you with today? [12:51:47 PM]
darquies soe: oh u mean same day purchases as in i bought a sub today. not the actual time of play. can u guys see how much time a player has logged in though. i mean if you can't there is no reason to email tuttle. but if you can he/she can see i was only on there for mayby an hour at most. what do u think? [12:52:14 PM]
TSR Stephanie B.: you will have to email Mr Tuttle [12:52:41 PM]
TSR Stephanie B.: Thank you for visiting our Sony Online Entertainment customer support chat. Take care and have a nice day! [12:55:00 PM]
'darquies soe' disconnected ('Concluded by Agent'). [12:55:03 PM]
Vanguard.. . Great PVE. . . Great Crafting. . . currently ran by SoE. no thankyou.
I felt the stir of wantin to resub to Vanguard. started at 7am this morning and started to download the isle of dawn(was gonna make a whole new char and stuff) well when the download started, said estimated time of download was 6 bloody hours(btw i'm on cable internet) contacted SoE, and they stated that it was because of my ports and stuff in my router. So i contacted my router rep and spent an hour gettin my Router Just like SoE wanted. Guess what. NO CHANGES. So i contacted SoE again and they wanted me to send them system files and stuff. I guess I should mention that this happened previously with EQ2. well long story short I'm chatting with a TSR for SoE around 2:45 pm told her to pls refund my money cause I was dumb to think SoE was gonna do anything right when it came to gaming. Who knows mayby you all can download the game super fast. but it seems when i tried to download SoE games(SWG, EQ2, Vanguard) i have to spend 2+ days with the comp running day and night just to getthe full games downloaded. I mean Turbine fixed that problem(you can download LOTR or D&DO and play the newbie area while the full content downloads)
bottom Line Vanguard is a Great game, it just needs 2 things. a population and a Compitnt Gaming studio.
SO you downloaded the trial.. and it was so slow, so you contacted SoE and asked for your money refunded? Someone making up stories?
WORDS AND MORE WORDS
You know, you sound like a total douche. The woman was being nice and everything. It was a misunderstanding on your part, and you did not understand what she was trying to say. Do you have a full account? I'm pretty sure the big download you had was for the entire game, not just the trial. Also, with a game this huge, a long download is expected. Just leave it on overnight to download.
Bored with your dead dog? Here, borrow my dead dog for a while.
I tried Vanguard at launch and had the typical experience - quick unsub. I waited a long time and actually repurchased it to give it another shot (maybe 8 mo ago?), because people were swearing it got better. Well, I found an empty world with clumsy graphics and gameplay that definitely didn't distiguish it enough to slog through the two prior points. In fairness, I didn't try crafting much the second time around, but still. There are some great concepts in the game but it's just not fun. That said, I'm glad some people are enjoying it, considering how much human effort went into making it.
Vanguard.. . Great PVE. . . Great Crafting. . . currently ran by SoE. no thankyou.
I felt the stir of wantin to resub to Vanguard. started at 7am this morning and started to download the isle of dawn(was gonna make a whole new char and stuff) well when the download started, said estimated time of download was 6 bloody hours(btw i'm on cable internet) contacted SoE, and they stated that it was because of my ports and stuff in my router. So i contacted my router rep and spent an hour gettin my Router Just like SoE wanted. Guess what. NO CHANGES. So i contacted SoE again and they wanted me to send them system files and stuff. I guess I should mention that this happened previously with EQ2. well long story short I'm chatting with a TSR for SoE around 2:45 pm told her to pls refund my money cause I was dumb to think SoE was gonna do anything right when it came to gaming. Who knows mayby you all can download the game super fast. but it seems when i tried to download SoE games(SWG, EQ2, Vanguard) i have to spend 2+ days with the comp running day and night just to getthe full games downloaded. I mean Turbine fixed that problem(you can download LOTR or D&DO and play the newbie area while the full content downloads)
bottom Line Vanguard is a Great game, it just needs 2 things. a population and a Compitnt Gaming studio.
SO you downloaded the trial.. and it was so slow, so you contacted SoE and asked for your money refunded? Someone making up stories?
WORDS AND MORE WORDS
You know, you sound like a total douche. The woman was being nice and everything. It was a misunderstanding on your part, and you did not understand what she was trying to say. Do you have a full account? I'm pretty sure the big download you had was for the entire game, not just the trial. Also, with a game this huge, a long download is expected. Just leave it on overnight to download.
total douche? don't see where you get that at. i was polite to the lady.
instead of just throwin out insults, pls back your words up(like i did when somebody accused me of fabricating the story.)
I am interested in the game, as I have been before, and I now notice they offer a 14 day trial. I'm downloading it now. I'm familiar with soe (Having played EQ2 last) so I should have it up and running quick, but I was curious if you could read one of my posts and tell me (preferably message me) If you think it meets the criteria I was looking for.
The post is in the LFGame forum, titled "Looking for another great game."
I think Vanguard may be something I'll enjoy, but i'll have to take some time to check it out. If you would give me your in-game info maybe we could chat in-game and such. Lemme know!
I have got to say that playing VG has spoiled me for other MMOs. I try to log into any of my other MMOs and I just can't do it. There is something about Vanguard that has sucked me in. While I'll admit that the low population does bug me, having a good group of friends to play with is the best thing. Man this is the perfect MMO I don't even know what to say to convince anyone anymore except that you ARE missing out.
I have to reply to this thread and just say I agree that Vanguard is a great game... and its little things about it that make it so much fun to play. I currently to some degree play WoW, Everquest II and Vanguard (bought AIOn recently and thought it had some really cool stuff, but only played for a few nights.. still might like to try pvp in that tho!). But of the 3 MMO's i have been trying to play lately, Vanguard seems to be the only one that keeps me thinking about it all the time.
WoW on the other hand i have got in and out of sooo many times.. the main thing that draws me back is MMO friends whom are still playing (which is the case this time.. he resurrected my account). And I have a blast PVPing in the battlegrounds in the game.. but I have been leveling a new character... i think i have talked to about 1 person on the way from 1-20.. who said more then one or two sentences back to me. Whenever I play WoW i enjoy the gameplay... the game is amazingly polished... but I just feel like I am rushing trying to get to max level - so I can experience the game! - PVP is the one time i really feel like im talking to people and have by far the most fun.
On the other hand EQ2 always intrigues me (possibly because of my lost love known as EQ)... but I always come back and just find the combat sooo mind numbing (i feel like I am literally hitting as many buttons as possible on my guardian.. more so then any other mmo). And still I have more fun with it in PVE than WoW because I do get to talk to more people and group... and well I guess really experience the game on my way to the top.
But then there is Vanguard. The fact that everytime i go to a new dungeon i get this sense of awe and wonder... I want to level up to see some of these high level places, but at the same time I want to see the places around my level just as much, or on alts go to the places I missed on my main. I believe my main is lv42 right now... but when I play the game I just want to play - to see new places, try and get new gear... im not thinking ("I can't wait to be max level and relaly playing the game!"). Yet it is really depressing that content isnt coming faster... and that the population isnt higher (sometimes getting a group can be a bit tough)... but if you are someone who enjoys a good PVE experience, misses getting into pick up groups that are actually fun (and might lead to friendships) then give this game a go.
Something about the experience I have with it is reminicient of EQ.. its not the same game, its still trying to be new and innovate on many levels - but it just gives me that feeling which is something I have sorely missed... its just hard when you are so unsure what the future will hold or if there will be enough people on. If this game got a more sizable population and increased support leading to guaranteed content in the future... i think it would turn into my only MMO, and at that point I would beg old mmo friends to get on it! But at the same time it is tough with where its at - so all i can say is if you are intrigued about anything i've written about Vanguard - give it a go.. the more people that do, the more possibility it has to grow!
OP, you are right. Vanguard does have a TON of potential. I played at release, but knew Sigil wouldn't last and they didn't. SOE bought Sigil out. SOE went on the cheap and is calling a live team four people. HELL, boards alone new a few people to maintain, much less a complete team. If you want players back and want to prove to the community SOE is committed to VSoH, then expand the team to at least 20 full-time experienced devs for at least three years and relaunch the game. If SOE can't give us that, then I don't see any hope for the game.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
Comments
I suppose it could be considered a miracle by some. ;p I agree, something more should come from SOE's end...but knowing how their system works, it's largely in our hands. Anyway...I think I'm going to log in now for some VG fun. I'll leave it with this, to everyone in general: If this game thrives or dies, it will have been determined by gamers, not SOE. Hopefully people who enjoy such features offered by VG won't let a good game die, but we gamers can be a fickle lot and it can certainly happen. Would be a shame...VG offers a lot that other games don't have the guts/desire/ability to.
If not so many of us had had to deal with $OE before- Then it would (possibly) be up to the players.
$OE has the worst reputation in MMO's by a longshot- And they did that to themselves. Thats why Vangard will never be a success- Because $OE is a company to avoid (although they probably have the most potential GAMEWISE) and until $OE does something to change their reputation (by making the first "move" as it were) they will continue to be avoided and will continue to adapt towards RMT and FTP games (and hybrids) which will further erode their base .
$OE seems to be moving into a direction many despise- $OE is unwilling to advertise in traditional methods (they claim "word of mouth" is the only way) $OE is unwilling to listen to their players and has the shoddiest C.S. team on the planet. $OE pays Mods to "overly moderate" ANYTHING CRITICAL from their Forum but wont pay devs to fix known issues. (in other words they pay for "damage control" rather than fixing things to begin with.)
$OE wants "word of mouth" advertising? Then $OE should start to care (about more than cutting cost's and upping profit margins) because word of mouth on $OE products is NOT GOOD.
Anyhow- VG has/had great potential but due to $OE (not their customers) its destined to flop.
It's still up to the players. You hate SOE, I think people get that, but SOE isn't some evil demonic force out to destroy the gaming world. They're a business, and they made a serious miscalculation with one of their business decisions. Seems they may have learned from it, and maybe they are striving to make some sort of amends for it. Heck, they're giving another go with Planetside, so we'll see how that one turns out.
SOE has, for a long time, refused to advertise for all of their games in their stable, unless that game is successful enough that it can budget for it, and then choose to advertise themselves. So far as their C.S. team, I've never had issues with them and have always received a pretty prompt response to any C.S.-related issues that have cropped up in VG (which haven't been many, admittedly). Nor have I seen a great deal of harsh moderation occuring at the VG forum. I see enough critical, but well thought-out posts, on the forums that have been there for a good while, so that makes your claims a tad difficult to believe. Apparently the "nazi moderation" isn't, perhaps, so rampant.
Again, it won't be due to SOE that VG fails or succeeds, but players. Because that, it appears, is how SOE's business model works these days.
You not seeing heavy moderation on the VG boards shows how little you know about their moderation. The VG boards have got to be the most over-moderated MMO forums I have ever been in. There are well thought out posts all the time, and yet they still get banned?
Rift: Storm Legion Raid Progression Tracker
SOE used to advertise their games and they have a whole project devoted to that with Platform Publishing. Soe knows how to advertise a game. This notion that soe games would be more popular if only they would advertise is nonsense. Soe isn't that stupid and they have the figures for how successful (or not) their advertising campaigns have been. Soe used to advertise their games very heavily which leaves the question as to why they no longer do that. There seems to be this never ending stream of excuses to place blame for the lack of success of soe games on anything other than the gameplay.
If a game isn't good enough to retain players with the gameplay it offers, then all the advertising in the world will not get people to stay. If a game is as good as people keep making claims then it will grow by word of mouth without advertising. Even without advertising it will grow, because the great gameplay will attract people.
Vanguard isn't going to die as a result of players. Soe has made it very clear they are not supporting this game to the level it needs.
Why should players be held responsible for not rushing to fund a game that the host company obviously is not willing to do. If soe put forth enough effort to even give the appearance they were going to support this game, then maybe more players would stick around. Why anyone expects players to thrust money on soe for no reason and then HOPE soe spends that money on developers to support the game is laughable. Soe would either take that money to fund one of their future projects or use it to create some new way to remove content and resell it to the players as loot cards, cash shop of some other sort of nonsense.
It really is funny to hear people think that soe is somehow going to turn their attention towards their older games in an effort to revitalize them.
There is a reason soe is cutting support and development for all their current released mmos. None of them have growth potential.
I suppose it could be considered a miracle by some. ;p I agree, something more should come from SOE's end...but knowing how their system works, it's largely in our hands. Anyway...I think I'm going to log in now for some VG fun. I'll leave it with this, to everyone in general: If this game thrives or dies, it will have been determined by gamers, not SOE. Hopefully people who enjoy such features offered by VG won't let a good game die, but we gamers can be a fickle lot and it can certainly happen. Would be a shame...VG offers a lot that other games don't have the guts/desire/ability to.
If not so many of us had had to deal with $OE before- Then it would (possibly) be up to the players.
$OE has the worst reputation in MMO's by a longshot- And they did that to themselves. Thats why Vangard will never be a success- Because $OE is a company to avoid (although they probably have the most potential GAMEWISE) and until $OE does something to change their reputation (by making the first "move" as it were) they will continue to be avoided and will continue to adapt towards RMT and FTP games (and hybrids) which will further erode their base .
$OE seems to be moving into a direction many despise- $OE is unwilling to advertise in traditional methods (they claim "word of mouth" is the only way) $OE is unwilling to listen to their players and has the shoddiest C.S. team on the planet. $OE pays Mods to "overly moderate" ANYTHING CRITICAL from their Forum but wont pay devs to fix known issues. (in other words they pay for "damage control" rather than fixing things to begin with.)
$OE wants "word of mouth" advertising? Then $OE should start to care (about more than cutting cost's and upping profit margins) because word of mouth on $OE products is NOT GOOD.
Anyhow- VG has/had great potential but due to $OE (not their customers) its destined to flop.
It's still up to the players. You hate SOE, I think people get that, but SOE isn't some evil demonic force out to destroy the gaming world. They're a business, and they made a serious miscalculation with one of their business decisions. Seems they may have learned from it, and maybe they are striving to make some sort of amends for it. Heck, they're giving another go with Planetside, so we'll see how that one turns out.
SOE has, for a long time, refused to advertise for all of their games in their stable, unless that game is successful enough that it can budget for it, and then choose to advertise themselves. So far as their C.S. team, I've never had issues with them and have always received a pretty prompt response to any C.S.-related issues that have cropped up in VG (which haven't been many, admittedly). Nor have I seen a great deal of harsh moderation occuring at the VG forum. I see enough critical, but well thought-out posts, on the forums that have been there for a good while, so that makes your claims a tad difficult to believe. Apparently the "nazi moderation" isn't, perhaps, so rampant.
Again, it won't be due to SOE that VG fails or succeeds, but players. Because that, it appears, is how SOE's business model works these days.
You not seeing heavy moderation on the VG boards shows how little you know about their moderation. The VG boards have got to be the most over-moderated MMO forums I have ever been in. There are well thought out posts all the time, and yet they still get banned?
I've seen moderation on the boards, but I log in there and I see quite a number of critical posts towards SOE (in particular) and frustrated criticism with VG not getting what it needs. The posts are still up there and not everyone is getting banned for them. Perhaps those who are getting banned should look at the difference between their posts (and history of posts) versus those who are critical yet remain unbanned. Might be something there to consider.
I played Vanguard recently, and loved it!
The only letdown for me was the world was so big that I felt all alone in it.
I am currently waiting on Aion, but, keeping vanguard in mind, as I really want an awesome pve game to play
SOE used to advertise their games and they have a whole project devoted to that with Platform Publishing. Soe knows how to advertise a game. This notion that soe games would be more popular if only they would advertise is nonsense. Soe isn't that stupid and they have the figures for how successful (or not) their advertising campaigns have been. Soe used to advertise their games very heavily which leaves the question as to why they no longer do that. There seems to be this never ending stream of excuses to place blame for the lack of success of soe games on anything other than the gameplay.
I'm not saying SOE doesn't know how to advertise for games. I'm saying their current business decisions are such that it is now in the players' hands as to whether VG (and many other games in the SOE stable) succeeds. Don't know how much clearer I can make it. A game's lack of success is, ultimately, determined not by gameplay (although that most certainly plays a very significant role in the core reason) but by subscriptions. Paying customers.
If a game isn't good enough to retain players with the gameplay it offers, then all the advertising in the world will not get people to stay. If a game is as good as people keep making claims then it will grow by word of mouth without advertising. Even without advertising it will grow, because the great gameplay will attract people.
VG, apparently, is good enough to grow, because it has been growing (albeit slowly). Here's the thing...VG does retain players, and there are a good portion of players who will play VG for a while, then break for a spell in another game, but return to VG after their break. This is normal amongst mmo's, the only difference being that Vanguard has a smaller subscriber base than more wildly popular mmo's.
And yes, Vanguard is a good game, which is why it is growing by word-of-mouth. That's what all of this thread is, you know...word-of-mouth by players. To help the game grow. Because it has no advertising. It is growing (slowly, due to many variables with quite a number of them outside their control). But without word-of-mouth, people won't have much of an idea as to what VG is. Players won't know what it's about. So without this word-of-mouth, the game won't grow except for those fortunate enough to stumble onto it in a random search for a game (which is how I came to know of it, before its release).
Vanguard isn't going to die as a result of players. Soe has made it very clear they are not supporting this game to the level it needs.
Actually, yes, Vanguard's success or failure is a result of players. ANY game's success or death is a result of players subscribing or not subscribing. SOE, again, is supporting this game to the level it does with its other Station Exchange games. Regardless of their yesteryear policies, their current business practice(s) is to pump money into a new(er) game at first, and then to cut the umbilical cord and let the market decide if that game thrives or dies, and to leave that game to survive on its own merits. I believe even the VG devs have made this clear. This isn't a case of SOE wanting to "stifle" VG or kill it slowly...it's just SOE being SOE.
Would any game benefit in some capacity if a publisher poured oodles of money into it regardless of its popularity? Probably, but that just isn't the business model SOE is going with; they're going to let the market decide, and they'll offer support like a distant parent (if you will). Not as a helicopter parent.
Why should players be held responsible for not rushing to fund a game that the host company obviously is not willing to do. If soe put forth enough effort to even give the appearance they were going to support this game, then maybe more players would stick around. Why anyone expects players to thrust money on soe for no reason and then HOPE soe spends that money on developers to support the game is laughable. Soe would either take that money to fund one of their future projects or use it to create some new way to remove content and resell it to the players as loot cards, cash shop of some other sort of nonsense.
Frankly, it's obvious SOE is willing to put forth the same effort they are for any other games in their stable. Again, this comes down to understanding how SOE now operates. Players need to decide for themselves if they enjoy a particular game and want to see it succeed. MMO's are a strange creature with each party benefiting the other...players support a game, a game gives players what the players are there for. It's a symbiotic relationship, almost, except it's the game that has everything to lose. Gamers' survival does not depend on a game, but a game's survival does depend on gamers.
I've repeated time and again what SOE's business practice is. Think of them as the distant parent who lets their kid succeed or fall on their own accomplishments, offering support but not holding their hand. What some gamers seem to want, or think a game should have, is a helicopter parent that hovers over their kid(game) and feeds them praise and rewards all they want regardless of that kid's true accomplishments. Players of said game would love that, of course, because that means that game's getting oodles of cash for stuff...but the problem from a business perspective is that a company is unnecessarily throwing money at a game that isn't earning its way, and thus will not strive to. It might not make the returns such an investment would warrant. That's almost suicide for any business, since even large companies (especially with stockholders to answer to) need to watch that bottom line. If you keep going into the red, you're going to fall hard. And you might not be able to get back up.
It really is funny to hear people think that soe is somehow going to turn their attention towards their older games in an effort to revitalize them.
EQ? Planetside? Successful, and even not quite so successful games, can garner attention. It again depends on their merits. It also largely depends on the gamers themselves. VG itself, like many other games in the stable, needs to grow and stand on its own. SOE will be that distant parent, offering some support, but VG will have to earn its way. When there are more subscribers for VG, VG will have more resources. Simple as that. With Station Exchange, it operates a little differently and funds are divided between game activity. So again, the more population within VG, the more funding it will get via that. This isn't a red-head stepchild syndrome, it's just business.
There is a reason soe is cutting support and development for all their current released mmos. None of them have growth potential.
Again...what I've posted before... >.>
That is one thing to consider, is that VG's world is massive and more like a world than a set of boxes tied together that keep players funneled together, and that can definitely create a sense of being alone in the world. It's not for everyone, but for people like me looking for that element of "something more", it's a boon.
Of course...that also means learning to not be the wallflower its so easy to be. Heck, it's tough for me to step out of my shell and be more socially "active" in-game, and that's what you have to do when people can all-too-easily disappear into that world.
I've said it elsewhere...I think there's a reason a lot of new games go the route of zones and instances. Not because massive, seamless worlds are technologically unfeasible (because VG proves they are), but because their target market desires that sense of people popping everywhere at the seams, and zones facilitate that sense of insane population and business everywhere (since everything's contained).
Then you have a game like Vanguard that decides to not funnel people together. Instead, they create this massive world and just drop people there...and people can go wherever they want. So people spread out in all directions (since there are no funnel points or contained boxes/zones) and it can seem very lonely. And it can definitely take more effort than in games with zones to find that social element, because people are spread out everywhere. I personally love that element of playing in a game that's more of a "world" versus playing in a game where the world is a series of boxes (not a slam against games with zones, please don't misunderstand...it's all just different game design philosophies). But I do know that takes a lot of getting used to for other players, and it's certainly not to everyone's taste. ^^
Just got finished playing VG for a couple of days and I'm not sure what people see in it. Some things are ok but overall it's nothing fresh. What astonished me though was the sheer amount of bugs, I simply couldn't believe it. How long has it been now, two years or so? How in the world could there be so many game-breaking group loot issues, getting stuck, and other stupid bugs after all this time? *baffled*
Bleh, worth the free trial I suppose for those looking for something...anything. But I'm not giving SOE my cash for that garbage. It's obvious they don't care about the game if they haven't fixed the serious bugs that I saw.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
That's odd that you'd run into so many game breaking bugs; hopefully you were able to report them. I know when I went through there a couple of months ago, I ran into only a few graphical bugs...but who knows, perhaps something's cropped up. So far as your opinion of the game...I suppose I'll just say that's your opinion, but VG does offer things few other mmo's offer...so...don't know what you were looking for that you'd consider "fresh."
I haven't really seen any serious bugs in a long long time. The game will always seem creaky but I've been able to play without any issues. Some chugging here and there and I seem to remember some odd thing happening with a skill but can't really remember what it is.
I doubt (but one could hope) that Vanguard will ever be as polished as WoW or Aion or *insert game here* but for people who want a huge world to explore and can overlook a few issues, the game offers some nice things.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I like it. I played to lvl 10 on the isle and didn't run into anything game-breaking. From a first impression, the only thing I can see as glaringly "wrong" with VG is the steep system requirements you need to get some good graphical performance out of it. But of course peoples opinion of good graphical performance can vary a lot. I wish character animations were more fluidly animated, I'd be soooo hooked.
stuff and things
@Abalis
It goes without saying that a game needs subscribers to be successful. However people also need to have faith that a game is going to progress in order to invest their time in a game.
Lets say for example that soe halts development of vanguard, then there is nothing the players can do to make this game successful. It will die unless people just want to pour cash into a game that is never going anywhere like soe did with MxO, planetside, eq mac, eqoa, etc.
Is soe supporting the game right now, sure. At the same time they have been slashing and cutting development of the game since the moment they acquired it. Recently the former producer left the project and didn't even write up a goodbye post. The current producer was pulled off vanguard to work on some non-vanguard related project for an undisclosed amount of time. Even the few dev cycles the games gets are terribly delayed.
I don't understand how any of this translates into the players responsibility for the games success or failure. Putting the blame on players is like throwing a hail mary pass with a healthy dose of guilt. Soe is abandoning this game and the end results of vanguard will be a direct result of soes level of support. You cannot blame players for not wanting to flock to a game that is being mothballed and then blame them for not saving it.
A game needs a player developer relationship to succeed and the burder for making vanguard a successful investment cannot be entirely one of the players. Soe owns the product and it is their investment to risk their development dollars on. As you have said (I agree) their current risk management is to only allocate money based on each games subscriber level which is why they are a company full of dead games.
Furthermore there is no guarantee that soe will increase development resources in relationship to increased subscribers. You yourself claims vanguard is increasing, but support is decreasing.
Also your claim that the game is growing doesn't sound very convincing. I can find threads on this forum from around a year ago that showed around 1,500 online to be the lowest amount of players on the smallest server. Not to long ago there was a thread where current players say 1,000 is the most players online on the highest populated server.
I agree with you about character models. If they had more players, they'd have more funding, and then able to make new character models.
-Computer specs no one cares about: check.
-MMOs played no one cares about: check.
-Xfire stats no one cares about: check.
-Signature no one cares about: check.
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-Narcissism: check.
Vanguard.. . Great PVE. . . Great Crafting. . . currently ran by SoE. no thankyou.
I felt the stir of wantin to resub to Vanguard. started at 7am this morning and started to download the isle of dawn(was gonna make a whole new char and stuff) well when the download started, said estimated time of download was 6 bloody hours(btw i'm on cable internet) contacted SoE, and they stated that it was because of my ports and stuff in my router. So i contacted my router rep and spent an hour gettin my Router Just like SoE wanted. Guess what. NO CHANGES. So i contacted SoE again and they wanted me to send them system files and stuff. I guess I should mention that this happened previously with EQ2. well long story short I'm chatting with a TSR for SoE around 2:45 pm told her to pls refund my money cause I was dumb to think SoE was gonna do anything right when it came to gaming. Who knows mayby you all can download the game super fast. but it seems when i tried to download SoE games(SWG, EQ2, Vanguard) i have to spend 2+ days with the comp running day and night just to getthe full games downloaded. I mean Turbine fixed that problem(you can download LOTR or D&DO and play the newbie area while the full content downloads)
bottom Line Vanguard is a Great game, it just needs 2 things.
a population and a Compitnt Gaming studio.
To Protect The Helpless From The Heartless
SO you downloaded the trial.. and it was so slow, so you contacted SoE and asked for your money refunded? Someone making up stories?
The station launcher is one of the worst pieces of software in the mmo industry. It really is a piece of crap and you can find many horror stories of people having horrible experiences with it.
I'm not saying the previous story is true. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't I don't know.
SO you downloaded the trial.. and it was so slow, so you contacted SoE and asked for your money refunded? Someone making up stories?
{Chat Log}
Hi, my name is TSR Stephanie B.. Please allow me a few moments to read your question. [12:18:01 PM]
darquies soe: oh my, i take it this is the same TSR i talked to last time [12:18:25 PM]
TSR Stephanie B.: Ok so you have completed everything that they asked? I will need files from you to look into the issue. Your account is fine and there is no reason why you should not be able to log into www.station.sony.com [12:21:40 PM]
darquies soe: yes i spent about an hour talkin with the linksys rep and now my router is configured just as SoE wishes it to be. But i am still getting the same problems, and my downloading of Vanguard is still the same time. So it would seem the problem is not on my end. but it would only seem. [12:23:06 PM]
TSR Stephanie B.: We will need to troubleshoot this issue further. I am going to send you an email that will instruct you on how to pull some files from your system. These files are system files that will give us a better perspective as to what is going on with your system. Please make sure that you provide an accurate description of the problem and the solutions that you have tried. The troubleshooting process will continue once support has received your response e-mail. [12:25:31 PM]
darquies soe: and how am i to get them to you? [12:25:58 PM]
@ [12:29:04 PM]
darquies soe: ok, you wish for ststem files, as long as they're not confidential, no probs. do you have a list? [12:29:42 PM]
TSR Stephanie B.: yes I will send you an email about all of them [12:30:35 PM]
darquies soe: how long will it take you to send the email. [12:30:50 PM]
TSR Stephanie B.: I will send it as soon as the chat ends
[12:31:45 PM]
darquies soe: well, b4 u go one other question. when the isle of dawn finally downloads, how do i download the full game. and can i play isle of dawn while i wait for the full game to download? [12:33:17 PM]
TSR Stephanie B.: you have to wait for the full download before you try to play [12:35:37 PM]
darquies soe: that did not answer my question i think [12:35:53 PM]
darquies soe: are you telling me that i cannot play isle of dawn while the full game downloads? [12:36:17 PM]
TSR Stephanie B.: you can not play the game until it downloads. Trial or paid they are the same game just you are not paying for a trail [12:38:17 PM]
darquies soe: Greetings, The IoD installer just installs that area so it is a much smaller install. SOE download servers are very fast so with a fast enough connection an install time of under an hour is possible. If you are on a fast connection but getting an install time that long it is probably due to a blocked port in a router or security application, The following information might be helpful if you need to troubleshoot a connection that utilizes routers, switches, or software-based firewalls: The ports you will need to open for Vanguard are listed below: Vanguard.exe uses port 7000 Vgclient.exe uses ports 9000 and 10100-10132 Launchpad.exe uses ports 53, 80, 7000, 9700 When opening access to these be sure to set it for both TCP and UDP given the option. If you have any further issues please let us know. Regards, Edward R Sony Online Entertainment [12:40:15 PM]
darquies soe: that's from Ed and as you can see he says it's a much smaller install. if your Much smaller install is gonna take me bloody 6+ hours, i hate to think how long the full install is gonna do. not to mention the fact that you want me to email you some system files and stuff. i want to play a game, not spend a week tryin to get it downloaded in order to see if i want to come back. hence why i am asking if i can play the game while the rest is downloading [12:42:15 PM]
TSR Stephanie B.: No you can not play while downloading the game. Sorry [12:43:10 PM]
darquies soe: can u just refund my money. i just resubbed today and i really should had known better than to try to play a SoE game [12:43:23 PM]
TSR Stephanie B.: Gladly I have closed the account and will send the request for the refund to my Tier 2 [12:44:48 PM]
darquies soe: and you know your tier 2 will refund my money? [12:45:18 PM]
TSR Stephanie B.: yes it was a same day purchase is there anything else? [12:46:47 PM]
darquies soe: no, just refund my money, and i will go find another game to play. Seriously Steph, you should go work for WoW. they treated their players with a bit more respect than SoE could ever hope to imagine. i bet they would treat the TSR's with better stuff as well [12:48:13 PM]
darquies soe: One SEC [12:48:19 PM]
darquies soe: U said a same day purchase? i had previously purchased EQ2 as well, and to my shrigrin saw that they did not empliment as they said, i only played on that for an hour if that, can i get my refund back for that as well? [12:49:10 PM]
@for and other refunds [12:50:47 PM]
TSR Stephanie B.: Is there anything else I can assist you with today? [12:51:47 PM]
darquies soe: oh u mean same day purchases as in i bought a sub today. not the actual time of play. can u guys see how much time a player has logged in though. i mean if you can't there is no reason to email tuttle. but if you can he/she can see i was only on there for mayby an hour at most. what do u think? [12:52:14 PM]
TSR Stephanie B.: you will have to email Mr Tuttle [12:52:41 PM]
TSR Stephanie B.: Thank you for visiting our Sony Online Entertainment customer support chat. Take care and have a nice day! [12:55:00 PM]
'darquies soe' disconnected ('Concluded by Agent'). [12:55:03 PM]
You got anything else to say sparky?
To Protect The Helpless From The Heartless
SO you downloaded the trial.. and it was so slow, so you contacted SoE and asked for your money refunded? Someone making up stories?
WORDS AND MORE WORDSYou know, you sound like a total douche. The woman was being nice and everything. It was a misunderstanding on your part, and you did not understand what she was trying to say. Do you have a full account? I'm pretty sure the big download you had was for the entire game, not just the trial. Also, with a game this huge, a long download is expected. Just leave it on overnight to download.
-Computer specs no one cares about: check.
-MMOs played no one cares about: check.
-Xfire stats no one cares about: check.
-Signature no one cares about: check.
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-Narcissism: check.
Bored with your dead dog? Here, borrow my dead dog for a while.
I tried Vanguard at launch and had the typical experience - quick unsub. I waited a long time and actually repurchased it to give it another shot (maybe 8 mo ago?), because people were swearing it got better. Well, I found an empty world with clumsy graphics and gameplay that definitely didn't distiguish it enough to slog through the two prior points. In fairness, I didn't try crafting much the second time around, but still. There are some great concepts in the game but it's just not fun. That said, I'm glad some people are enjoying it, considering how much human effort went into making it.
SO you downloaded the trial.. and it was so slow, so you contacted SoE and asked for your money refunded? Someone making up stories?
WORDS AND MORE WORDSYou know, you sound like a total douche. The woman was being nice and everything. It was a misunderstanding on your part, and you did not understand what she was trying to say. Do you have a full account? I'm pretty sure the big download you had was for the entire game, not just the trial. Also, with a game this huge, a long download is expected. Just leave it on overnight to download.
total douche? don't see where you get that at. i was polite to the lady.
instead of just throwin out insults, pls back your words up(like i did when somebody accused me of fabricating the story.)
edit: forgot the ( )
To Protect The Helpless From The Heartless
Dear OP,
I am interested in the game, as I have been before, and I now notice they offer a 14 day trial. I'm downloading it now. I'm familiar with soe (Having played EQ2 last) so I should have it up and running quick, but I was curious if you could read one of my posts and tell me (preferably message me) If you think it meets the criteria I was looking for.
The post is in the LFGame forum, titled "Looking for another great game."
I think Vanguard may be something I'll enjoy, but i'll have to take some time to check it out. If you would give me your in-game info maybe we could chat in-game and such. Lemme know!
Kithablast.
Tried it... enjoyed it a few months ago when it had a sudden surge of trial players in the starting area...
But recently when I tried it again with its free 'returning' trial for all players... I found places desolate and boring and the lag was KILLING me.
I have got to say that playing VG has spoiled me for other MMOs. I try to log into any of my other MMOs and I just can't do it. There is something about Vanguard that has sucked me in. While I'll admit that the low population does bug me, having a good group of friends to play with is the best thing. Man this is the perfect MMO I don't even know what to say to convince anyone anymore except that you ARE missing out.
-Computer specs no one cares about: check.
-MMOs played no one cares about: check.
-Xfire stats no one cares about: check.
-Signature no one cares about: check.
------------------------------------------------------------
-Narcissism: check.
I have to reply to this thread and just say I agree that Vanguard is a great game... and its little things about it that make it so much fun to play. I currently to some degree play WoW, Everquest II and Vanguard (bought AIOn recently and thought it had some really cool stuff, but only played for a few nights.. still might like to try pvp in that tho!). But of the 3 MMO's i have been trying to play lately, Vanguard seems to be the only one that keeps me thinking about it all the time.
WoW on the other hand i have got in and out of sooo many times.. the main thing that draws me back is MMO friends whom are still playing (which is the case this time.. he resurrected my account). And I have a blast PVPing in the battlegrounds in the game.. but I have been leveling a new character... i think i have talked to about 1 person on the way from 1-20.. who said more then one or two sentences back to me. Whenever I play WoW i enjoy the gameplay... the game is amazingly polished... but I just feel like I am rushing trying to get to max level - so I can experience the game! - PVP is the one time i really feel like im talking to people and have by far the most fun.
On the other hand EQ2 always intrigues me (possibly because of my lost love known as EQ)... but I always come back and just find the combat sooo mind numbing (i feel like I am literally hitting as many buttons as possible on my guardian.. more so then any other mmo). And still I have more fun with it in PVE than WoW because I do get to talk to more people and group... and well I guess really experience the game on my way to the top.
But then there is Vanguard. The fact that everytime i go to a new dungeon i get this sense of awe and wonder... I want to level up to see some of these high level places, but at the same time I want to see the places around my level just as much, or on alts go to the places I missed on my main. I believe my main is lv42 right now... but when I play the game I just want to play - to see new places, try and get new gear... im not thinking ("I can't wait to be max level and relaly playing the game!"). Yet it is really depressing that content isnt coming faster... and that the population isnt higher (sometimes getting a group can be a bit tough)... but if you are someone who enjoys a good PVE experience, misses getting into pick up groups that are actually fun (and might lead to friendships) then give this game a go.
Something about the experience I have with it is reminicient of EQ.. its not the same game, its still trying to be new and innovate on many levels - but it just gives me that feeling which is something I have sorely missed... its just hard when you are so unsure what the future will hold or if there will be enough people on. If this game got a more sizable population and increased support leading to guaranteed content in the future... i think it would turn into my only MMO, and at that point I would beg old mmo friends to get on it! But at the same time it is tough with where its at - so all i can say is if you are intrigued about anything i've written about Vanguard - give it a go.. the more people that do, the more possibility it has to grow!
OP, you are right. Vanguard does have a TON of potential. I played at release, but knew Sigil wouldn't last and they didn't. SOE bought Sigil out. SOE went on the cheap and is calling a live team four people. HELL, boards alone new a few people to maintain, much less a complete team. If you want players back and want to prove to the community SOE is committed to VSoH, then expand the team to at least 20 full-time experienced devs for at least three years and relaunch the game. If SOE can't give us that, then I don't see any hope for the game.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."