It's nothing to do with MMOs, it's to do with games in general. Old games were based around "you have x lives, lose them and you go back to the start". Now every game basically gives you infinite lives or save points so you can keep banging your head until you make progress.
To the OP saying "stop making games aimed at 9 year olds who cant handle losing their little shiny sword.", are you for real?
Remember Sonic 2 back in the day?
You got a handful of lives, if you lost them (which was as easy as hitting a mob or spike when the screen was scrolling at light-speed) you went all the way back to the start of the whole game with NOTHING. And that was the easy mode.
The hard mode involved collecting enough rings to enter the portal minigame, which required you to execute a 3d-pacman-style maze perfectly while avoiding all the bad squares. This required PERFECT execution and knowledge of the route. If you got it wrong, that was it, start the game again. You had to get crystals from all 7? minigames to be able to transform into Super Sonic and get the proper ending. Hardcore? Well, guess what, I PLAYED THIS GAME WHEN I WAS NINE YEARS OLD. And so did loads of other people.
Anyway the point is that death penalties are for nine-year-olds. Or rather, harsh death penalties are an outdated mechanic that was perfectly acceptable in casual games years ago, but regarded as completely mad these days. It's not about difficulty, it's because games have evolved to being more creative than making people repeat stuff for ages if they fucked up.
It's not only a harsh death penalty, it's also how is it done. If you are in a forest and there is all this ambience to it, of danger, or a dungeon, if the developers have managed to create this feeling, then your reaction to a harsh death is "wow this is awsome" and you respect that environment. Otherwise, you just go and insult the game and the devs and go to the forums and write about how harsh death sucks.
So this is *another* of he things the guys at Verant did right with classic EQ.
[quote]it's because games have evolved to being more creative than making people repeat stuff for ages if they fucked up.[/quote]
Strange, that sounds like your talking about world of warcraft end game, you know, repeating the same damn instance over and over and over and over and over until they manage to do it.
The Mechanics are still there, only the death penalties have changed, in terms of WoW, as I said before there is a penalty for death, and its three fold, first is the repair cost, second is the ghost walk back to your body, and third if you die enough is they extra delay before you can get your corpse back.
Each of these three things combined amount to WoW's death penalty, and while its casual in nature, it is still in some cases worth fighting for your life while in combat when you know the grave yard is miles away, and your facing a 5-10 minute corpse run, you really will not want to die. but thats situational, if you know the game and have a grave yard close, lots of people will simply let themselves be killed without a fight. and that not only hurts them, but the person doing the killing.
My Fear is that people holding up WoW as a Perfect example of how to do it, are not just trying to copy it but their trying to improve something or implement something that's simply not designed for their games.
Again I bring up the game where my interest is at the moment, Jumpgate Evolution.
In Jumpgate Evolution if you die out in space, you simply spawn back at your last station with all your goods and items intact, you do have a repair bill, but it will follow convention and be 10% per death, which will not be something to ever put fear into a player over their possible death.
My POINT!!.
is that while WoW had three factors to its death penalty, the run back which could take 5+ minutes, the repair bill, and the possibly res delay, Jumpgate has only one of those factors, the repair bill.
Imagine WoW, without a ghost run, without res sickeness you die you simply res fully healed and ready to go at the grave yard, no time delay no penalty at all, this is the fate of players who will be asked to pay and play jumpgate evolution.
Stepping away from JGE and looking at the industry, there is a real risk now that the new wave of MMO's coming out will try and do the same thing net devil have done, and they will try and follow the trend of making death less and less meaningful, and I fear that when this eventually happens, games will stop being games and simply become social channels and places to talk, WoW for a lot of people is already nothing more than a fancy IRC chat client, how many of you log in spend hours in Iron Forge just chatting away.
I find it kind of odd that you would disparage 9 year olds when referring to death penalty and hardcore gamers.
Honestly, everyone who is between the ages of 20-30, think back to when you were even 5-9 years old. What gamers were we playing?
Mario - Permadeath
Super Ghouls and Ghosts - Permadeath
Sonic the Hedgehog - Permadeath
Gauntlet - Permadeath
Contra!?!?! - If you could beat this game without using "The Code", you were a god among men.
Warcraft - All your base are belong to us
Every single RPG that sent you back to your last save however many hours ago that you actually even remebered to save given how immersive the game felt to you.
Any number of games on the NES, SNES, or Genesis where saving games was limited or nonexistant, and lives were in very short supply. How many people fought through all the challenges and beat the games? Or at least played and had fun before moving on to fresh new challenges?
Ninja Turtles, Streets of Rage, side scrolling shooters, etc, etc, etc, ETC.
As kids we kept at these games, time after time, getting better and better, until finally the game was won. That or our mental energies were so spent that we conceded defeat to the sheer might of the game we faced and were happy to have trained with such a harsh master.
Games were hardcore, and gamers followed suit.
MMORPG's have a a problem, and it isn't simply that the death penalty is missing or lowering over time.
The problem is that these games are built around concepts where actually having a death penalty in the classic sense is too hard to bear.
Think about it. 3 lives in WoW? And then Permadeath? 10 lives? even 100? Yeah right.
What kind of death penalty is acceptable for a game like WoW?
Loosing 10% a bar of XP like they did in EQ? Great, a huge level treadmill that perpetually gets steeper and steeper. Don't think so.
Corpse run? Hardly a penalty at all. -75% stats? Sitting in town waiting for that to wear off is the exact opposite of fun. Running 3 miles back to your body is more a waste of time than anything else. Spending 3 hours gaining that 10% a bar of xp just to loose it to lag, or some fool in your party that doesn't know how to play, is also the opposite of fun.
Death penalties in MMO's are almost always completely worthless, and generally the anti-thesis of fun. I haven't played a single PvE mmo where dying or the prospect of dying did anything other than fill me with boredom, and make me lethargic. "Bah,now I have to grind another 3 hours, or sit for 10 minutes and do nothing, etc" No excitement, no adrenaline, just dread. It is generally just a feeling of being pointlessly screwed by the system when an MMO death penalty gets ahold of you.
To have an effective penalty system in an MMORPG, you simply have to be creative. Creative in a fun way, not creative in a boring way as is the case with most MMO's.
In MMO's you can neither have a death penalty that sets you back levelrs, nor can you have a penalty that just slows down the game and makes it boring. They don't work.
What you need is a penalty that makes the player overcome an obstacle to pay for that death. A FUN obstacle. Not running a mile. Not sitting and waiting for stats to return. Not loosing levels. And generally not loosing anything they have worked hours and hours for(they need to be able to get back into the game and not feel completely defeated by a single, or even a whole string of deaths).
So what obstacles to normal gameplay can we devise for a death penalty? Well, there certainly isn't one or two such obstacles, but many such obstacles so as to not get repetitive in nature.
Lets list some death penalties that don't completely suck:
Minigames - You character is knocked unconscious, and has the option of completing a short but entertaining mingame to return to consciousness. Might even be able to incorporate this in the entire death system, making players souls escape purgatory to get back to their original business, whatever that was. What minigames, how they tie into the game, and many other factors are numerous, but if done right would fit the genre better than any current penalties.
"You've lost" screens - Think about this. You just lost you last life in an NES game. You hear some sad music, maybe see a screen or two , and you are back at the start screen right? Now take this forward to an MMO. You just DIED. For some amount of time, maybe a fixed 10 seconds, 30 seconds, a full minute, or even better, variable depending on other factors; when you die you are forced to witness some graphical, audio enhanced display of what death is like in your particular gameworld. The sound of waves crashing on a beach, or the toll bells, while you stare the Grim Reaper in face until he lets you back into the mortal realm. It would give a real "Game over feel" to am MMO without having it actually be game over. I think it would be key that you give something interesting for the player to look at and or listen to while they are dead. I know they will be getting a drink and taking a piss, but they will appreciate on some level it anyway.
Quizzes - Thats right, if you die, you can't come back until you give death the answers he seeks. This piggybacks off the last option, and helps make it variable. Basically, make hundreds, no, THOUSANDS of questions relating specifically the in game lore, mechanics, etc, etc. Things about the game players should know, and maybe even things that the devs would like players to think about. The quicker you answer the question or questions, the quicker death lets you back into the mortal realm. This kills 2 birds with one stone. Noobs learn the game faster than they would otherwise, since they have to keep answering these important game questions. If they know the answer, death is short. If they don't, they keep having questions thrown at them. Eventually they learn.
Jail - The monkeys in the forest just killed/defeated you. You spawn in their camp, hanging from a tree. Maybe instance this death sequence, and make it so it is at night, and the monkeys are sleeping(or any number of scenarios). You can sneak out, or fight your way out. Your choice. Get to the exit point and you return to the game near where you "died". Apply this to whatever enemy type you like, every instance of death in a game with this type of action will be quite a bit more interesting than a corpse run. Locked cages you have to escape from, being roasted on a fire, etc, etc. Make death fun/funny, even though it is inconvenient and against the interests of your character progression.
You can think of more, I know you can.
The key here, in an MMO, is to reward your player more than you penalize them. Penalties aren't going to raise adrenaline, good gameplay tied to other factors will(battlefield objectives, tough close fights, fast paced action, etc).
In these games, players need to be having fun, even while dying.
The house of peace is built on the foundation of war.
You must conquer the land before you build you house and live in peace.
I agree, harsher death penalties would bring some challenge back into games. But given the current state of things, and the overwhelming influence of a certain wildly succesful game, it remains unlikely we will be seeing such implemented. The current crop of *cough* WOW *cough* players seem to do nothing but demand nerfs, and to actually loose something to death would be a major reason for them to initiate forum drama...
What challenge? Harsh death penalties would STOP challenge. The vast majority of players would stop taking on difficult content because they ran the risk of dying. It wouldn't make anyone risk more, it would make them risk less!
I agree, harsher death penalties would bring some challenge back into games. But given the current state of things, and the overwhelming influence of a certain wildly succesful game, it remains unlikely we will be seeing such implemented. The current crop of *cough* WOW *cough* players seem to do nothing but demand nerfs, and to actually loose something to death would be a major reason for them to initiate forum drama...
What challenge? Harsh death penalties would STOP challenge. The vast majority of players would stop taking on difficult content because they ran the risk of dying. It wouldn't make anyone risk more, it would make them risk less!
I disagree with Cephus. What qualifies you to throw out a statement as broad as "The vast majority of players would stop taking on difficult content because they ran the risk of dying." People go out in the real world everyday to face difficulties and challenges. People join the military, new business owners, home owners, marriage (haha). Striving forward is what us humans do. It's a defining quality. This filters down to even the games we play. When things become to easy, we become bored.
I find it kind of odd that you would disparage 9 year olds when referring to death penalty and hardcore gamers. Honestly, everyone who is between the ages of 20-30, think back to when you were even 5-9 years old. What gamers were we playing? Mario - Permadeath Super Ghouls and Ghosts - Permadeath Sonic the Hedgehog - Permadeath Gauntlet - Permadeath Contra!?!?! - If you could beat this game without using "The Code", you were a god among men. Warcraft - All your base are belong to us Every single RPG that sent you back to your last save however many hours ago that you actually even remebered to save given how immersive the game felt to you. Any number of games on the NES, SNES, or Genesis where saving games was limited or nonexistant, and lives were in very short supply. How many people fought through all the challenges and beat the games? Or at least played and had fun before moving on to fresh new challenges? Ninja Turtles, Streets of Rage, side scrolling shooters, etc, etc, etc, ETC. As kids we kept at these games, time after time, getting better and better, until finally the game was won. That or our mental energies were so spent that we conceded defeat to the sheer might of the game we faced and were happy to have trained with such a harsh master. Games were hardcore, and gamers followed suit.
MMORPG's have a a problem, and it isn't simply that the death penalty is missing or lowering over time. The problem is that these games are built around concepts where actually having a death penalty in the classic sense is too hard to bear. Think about it. 3 lives in WoW? And then Permadeath? 10 lives? even 100? Yeah right. What kind of death penalty is acceptable for a game like WoW? Loosing 10% a bar of XP like they did in EQ? Great, a huge level treadmill that perpetually gets steeper and steeper. Don't think so. Corpse run? Hardly a penalty at all. -75% stats? Sitting in town waiting for that to wear off is the exact opposite of fun. Running 3 miles back to your body is more a waste of time than anything else. Spending 3 hours gaining that 10% a bar of xp just to loose it to lag, or some fool in your party that doesn't know how to play, is also the opposite of fun.
Death penalties in MMO's are almost always completely worthless, and generally the anti-thesis of fun. I haven't played a single PvE mmo where dying or the prospect of dying did anything other than fill me with boredom, and make me lethargic. "Bah,now I have to grind another 3 hours, or sit for 10 minutes and do nothing, etc" No excitement, no adrenaline, just dread. It is generally just a feeling of being pointlessly screwed by the system when an MMO death penalty gets ahold of you.
To have an effective penalty system in an MMORPG, you simply have to be creative. Creative in a fun way, not creative in a boring way as is the case with most MMO's. In MMO's you can neither have a death penalty that sets you back levelrs, nor can you have a penalty that just slows down the game and makes it boring. They don't work. What you need is a penalty that makes the player overcome an obstacle to pay for that death. A FUN obstacle. Not running a mile. Not sitting and waiting for stats to return. Not loosing levels. And generally not loosing anything they have worked hours and hours for(they need to be able to get back into the game and not feel completely defeated by a single, or even a whole string of deaths). So what obstacles to normal gameplay can we devise for a death penalty? Well, there certainly isn't one or two such obstacles, but many such obstacles so as to not get repetitive in nature.
Lets list some death penalties that don't completely suck: Minigames - You character is knocked unconscious, and has the option of completing a short but entertaining mingame to return to consciousness. Might even be able to incorporate this in the entire death system, making players souls escape purgatory to get back to their original business, whatever that was. What minigames, how they tie into the game, and many other factors are numerous, but if done right would fit the genre better than any current penalties. "You've lost" screens - Think about this. You just lost you last life in an NES game. You hear some sad music, maybe see a screen or two , and you are back at the start screen right? Now take this forward to an MMO. You just DIED. For some amount of time, maybe a fixed 10 seconds, 30 seconds, a full minute, or even better, variable depending on other factors; when you die you are forced to witness some graphical, audio enhanced display of what death is like in your particular gameworld. The sound of waves crashing on a beach, or the toll bells, while you stare the Grim Reaper in face until he lets you back into the mortal realm. It would give a real "Game over feel" to am MMO without having it actually be game over. I think it would be key that you give something interesting for the player to look at and or listen to while they are dead. I know they will be getting a drink and taking a piss, but they will appreciate on some level it anyway. Quizzes - Thats right, if you die, you can't come back until you give death the answers he seeks. This piggybacks off the last option, and helps make it variable. Basically, make hundreds, no, THOUSANDS of questions relating specifically the in game lore, mechanics, etc, etc. Things about the game players should know, and maybe even things that the devs would like players to think about. The quicker you answer the question or questions, the quicker death lets you back into the mortal realm. This kills 2 birds with one stone. Noobs learn the game faster than they would otherwise, since they have to keep answering these important game questions. If they know the answer, death is short. If they don't, they keep having questions thrown at them. Eventually they learn. Jail - The monkeys in the forest just killed/defeated you. You spawn in their camp, hanging from a tree. Maybe instance this death sequence, and make it so it is at night, and the monkeys are sleeping(or any number of scenarios). You can sneak out, or fight your way out. Your choice. Get to the exit point and you return to the game near where you "died". Apply this to whatever enemy type you like, every instance of death in a game with this type of action will be quite a bit more interesting than a corpse run. Locked cages you have to escape from, being roasted on a fire, etc, etc. Make death fun/funny, even though it is inconvenient and against the interests of your character progression.
You can think of more, I know you can. The key here, in an MMO, is to reward your player more than you penalize them. Penalties aren't going to raise adrenaline, good gameplay tied to other factors will(battlefield objectives, tough close fights, fast paced action, etc). In these games, players need to be having fun, even while dying.
Decimatus has it right. I wish I had thought of this. Great ideas. The best idea is the death quiz. It imparts lore or game info that educates the player.
Fantastic, now lets hope somedeveloper out there takes the idea and runs with it.
Asheron's Call, Champions Online, Dark Age of Camelot, EVE Online, EverQuest, Lineage 2, Star Wars Galaxies and World of Warcraft.Waiting for SWTOR
Pretty silly discussion. The games that have harsh death penalties are still around, and we have a new wave of games with them as well (Darkfall, Mortal Online, Earthrise, Im sure there are others). A softer death penalty suits some games, it doesn't suit others. If it's a big deal to you, choose a game that has them.
Pretty silly discussion. The games that have harsh death penalties are still around, and we have a new wave of games with them as well (Darkfall, Mortal Online, Earthrise, Im sure there are others). A softer death penalty suits some games, it doesn't suit others. If it's a big deal to you, choose a game that has them.
I think in a lot of ways when people make threads like this they think about EverQuest. Altho I didn't read the entire OP so maybe not this time. Obviously the death penalty was lessened over time.
My personal view is it comes back to when people actually depended on others. Obviously you could still solo in EQ1... I actually solo'd my druid to 50 and had left my friends so far behind I spent .. way to much time being a power level "buddy" after.
Its not one of those things I would say is "better". At one point MMO's seemed to be designed to really encourage making friends. I liked the community in early MMO's a lot better but that's something you can't really control.
I agree, harsher death penalties would bring some challenge back into games. But given the current state of things, and the overwhelming influence of a certain wildly succesful game, it remains unlikely we will be seeing such implemented. The current crop of *cough* WOW *cough* players seem to do nothing but demand nerfs, and to actually loose something to death would be a major reason for them to initiate forum drama...
What challenge? Harsh death penalties would STOP challenge. The vast majority of players would stop taking on difficult content because they ran the risk of dying. It wouldn't make anyone risk more, it would make them risk less!
I disagree with Cephus. What qualifies you to throw out a statement as broad as "The vast majority of players would stop taking on difficult content because they ran the risk of dying." People go out in the real world everyday to face difficulties and challenges. People join the military, new business owners, home owners, marriage (haha). Striving forward is what us humans do. It's a defining quality. This filters down to even the games we play. When things become to easy, we become bored.
I don't think he's wrong at all. Real World and game world are two different things. from my experience, players who risk harsh penalties in a game tend NOT to take challenges, especially when the reward is just knowing that you "might" be able to solo that boss. Now, if the reward was extremely great, then yes, I think some people would. However, not all.
How many people really open their own business or take a gamble on some off the path career that may or may not give them something more than your regular 8 hour job?
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Lets list some death penalties that don't completely suck: Minigames - You character is knocked unconscious, and has the option of completing a short but entertaining mingame to return to consciousness. Might even be able to incorporate this in the entire death system, making players souls escape purgatory to get back to their original business, whatever that was. What minigames, how they tie into the game, and many other factors are numerous, but if done right would fit the genre better than any current penalties. "You've lost" screens - Think about this. You just lost you last life in an NES game. You hear some sad music, maybe see a screen or two , and you are back at the start screen right? Now take this forward to an MMO. You just DIED. For some amount of time, maybe a fixed 10 seconds, 30 seconds, a full minute, or even better, variable depending on other factors; when you die you are forced to witness some graphical, audio enhanced display of what death is like in your particular gameworld. The sound of waves crashing on a beach, or the toll bells, while you stare the Grim Reaper in face until he lets you back into the mortal realm. It would give a real "Game over feel" to am MMO without having it actually be game over. I think it would be key that you give something interesting for the player to look at and or listen to while they are dead. I know they will be getting a drink and taking a piss, but they will appreciate on some level it anyway. Quizzes - Thats right, if you die, you can't come back until you give death the answers he seeks. This piggybacks off the last option, and helps make it variable. Basically, make hundreds, no, THOUSANDS of questions relating specifically the in game lore, mechanics, etc, etc. Things about the game players should know, and maybe even things that the devs would like players to think about. The quicker you answer the question or questions, the quicker death lets you back into the mortal realm. This kills 2 birds with one stone. Noobs learn the game faster than they would otherwise, since they have to keep answering these important game questions. If they know the answer, death is short. If they don't, they keep having questions thrown at them. Eventually they learn. Jail - The monkeys in the forest just killed/defeated you. You spawn in their camp, hanging from a tree. Maybe instance this death sequence, and make it so it is at night, and the monkeys are sleeping(or any number of scenarios). You can sneak out, or fight your way out. Your choice. Get to the exit point and you return to the game near where you "died". Apply this to whatever enemy type you like, every instance of death in a game with this type of action will be quite a bit more interesting than a corpse run. Locked cages you have to escape from, being roasted on a fire, etc, etc. Make death fun/funny, even though it is inconvenient and against the interests of your character progression.
Im sorry but I have no desire to play a silly minigame as punishment for death. EXP and level loss is fine but nothing that takes me away from the game im trying to play. In order to have reward, there has to be some sort of risk. Most games today have taken all risk out, which makes the rewards feel like handouts. If you die in a WoW dungeon, you spawn 30 seconds away from the entrance, run back in and start over. Yes it can cost 8-10 gold per death to repair but you make 10 times that amount from the vendor loot on each run so you arent being penalized anything.
The incentive is to attract and retain customers with more money than 9 year olds.
You are arguing on a completely emotional level. Really? 9 year olds? You are telling me that some 9 year old's allowance is running the juggernaut of popular mmo's at this point?
If I were to look at popular mmo's I would say that most of them have a far more lenient death penalty. I highly doubt that all of those mmo's are being supported by the mercurial whims of a 9 year old.
It seems to me that the emphasis of these financially successful games is for lighter death penalties. Since we know that there are a lot of "adults" playing one would have to ask what games are they playing that have have these heavy death penalties?
Of the adults I know who play games, and of the smaller sub section that play mmo's, the majority of them play World of Warcraft. And we know that the death penalty is rather light there.
You'd have to show that the mmo genre was financially suffering in the statement that I quoted in order for them to "wake up" and change their ways. But the genre is not financially suffering when it comes to the successful games that exist.
You might not like the games that are out that are successful but I don't see the need for game companies to change given that the games that are successful are angled toward more casual players.
I wasn't the one who introduced the 9-year old demographic into the discussion.
ah ok, then apologies, I was commenting on that specific sentence that you included and didn't see it elsewhere. 'That' part can got to whoever else said it ; )
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
While I agree with the OP (of course, I'm an EVE player) I am a realist and understand that when it comes to gaming, most people don't like to incur harsh death penalities.
What used to be standard (losing XP if you die) is now considered a regressive oddity if its included in a game (a la Aion).
Losing gear on death? Lineage 2 was the last major title to include it and only smaller titles like DF and the early games still keep the mechanic going forward.
No, I didn't forget EVE, but keep in mind, its fairly easy to control your losses (if not prevent them entirely) and most veteran players will tell you they never really lose anything they can't afford to.
Most Developers have one primary goal, keep their investors happy by getting as many subs as they can and get the money flowing in.
They won't code in severe death penalties since thats not what a majority of players are willing to pay for.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
People like the OP needs to let go of unpopular game mechanics. Eve is stuck at 300k .. a niche .. because of amongst other things .. high death penalty.
There is no point to it except making games frustrating and increase the grind. It does not make the games more challenging (that can simply be done by making it difficult to kill mobs).
In fact, LOW death penalty is GOOD. It gets players to try new things out easier. No one is going to wear that shiny piece of armor into battle if they can lose it .. and if so, what is the point of getting it in the first place?
Kyleran: "No, I didn't forget EVE, but keep in mind, its fairly easy to control your losses (if not prevent them entirely) and most veteran players will tell you they never really lose anything they can't afford to."
That control/prevention is the primary reason item loss in EVE doesn't completely fall apart (even their overall PVP system necessitates a lot of tedious mechanics.)
Kyleran: "They won't code in severe death penalties since thats not what a majority of players are willing to pay for."
Exactly. Players want fun. Harsh death penalties don't really add to fun. They add a sense of danger, which for most players isn't worth the loss in fun factor.
Decimatus: "Quizzes..."
All of the questions would be Wowheadable before the game even released. Sure, players will still end up inadvertantly learning about the game's lore while looking up the answers, but the Quiz Death Mechanic sort of loses something when you reword it to what's actually going to happen:
When you die you're forced to alt-tab, open your browser, and look up a quiz answer in order to proceed.
Excellent post overall though. Particularly adept at countering the notion of "death penalty is for adults", which is actually pretty far from the truth given how adults typically learn to want to optimize their time -- when they play a game they want to spend their time playing the game, not dealing with some death penalty.
Yavin: "Imagine WoW, without a ghost run, without res sickeness you die you simply res fully healed and ready to go at the grave yard, no time delay no penalty at all, this is the fate of players who will be asked to pay and play jumpgate evolution."
I'll take your word for JGE's system being poorly designed.
However, here's a system with "zero" death penalty which actually causes you significant loss upon death:
Instant graveyard respawn. No repairs. No item/XP loss. No penalty, right? Well let's keep reading...
Missions send you to Zones. Zones are a series of Sectors. Each Sector sends waves of enemies at you for 10 minutes.
Low sectors are easy, but still take 10 minutes.
Low sectors provide crap for XP/credits.
Everything respawns when you die.
By the time you reach Sector 5, you've got 50 mins invested and are finally starting to make solid XP/credits from the enemies. If you die there, despite "zero" death penalty, you're going to have to restart from Sector 1. This means a long period of crappy XP/credits just to get back to where you were. You never lose anything, except the stuff you would have potentially gained.
The cool part is the graveyard can be right next door to Sector 1. You immediately get back into the action (instead of the developer telling you you can't play his game for the next 5 mins or whatever.)
The less cool part (for most players) is it has to be an instance-heavy game.
The point being that without sufficient information it's hard to judge a game as having a painful enough death penalty. Because the system I just described would spawn a forum post "OMG, this game has no death penalty how crappy is that!?" and yet such a post would be woefully inaccurate of the true "cost" behind dying.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I agree, harsher death penalties would bring some challenge back into games. But given the current state of things, and the overwhelming influence of a certain wildly succesful game, it remains unlikely we will be seeing such implemented. The current crop of *cough* WOW *cough* players seem to do nothing but demand nerfs, and to actually loose something to death would be a major reason for them to initiate forum drama...
What challenge? Harsh death penalties would STOP challenge. The vast majority of players would stop taking on difficult content because they ran the risk of dying. It wouldn't make anyone risk more, it would make them risk less!
I disagree with Cephus. What qualifies you to throw out a statement as broad as "The vast majority of players would stop taking on difficult content because they ran the risk of dying." People go out in the real world everyday to face difficulties and challenges. People join the military, new business owners, home owners, marriage (haha). Striving forward is what us humans do. It's a defining quality. This filters down to even the games we play. When things become to easy, we become bored.
What Blizzard has publicly stated? There are only less than 5% (more like 2%) of the players ever raid BT or Sunwell and the number is up up up in WOTLK because the core raid is made easier with hard mode for people who want more challenges.
I would like 98% pretty much qualify as "vast majority".
Plus, there is already little death penalty in WOW. If you increase death penalty, it will go WAY below the 2% quoted.
I LOVE harsh death penalty's and in fact, have never experienced the rush or the danger of UO PVP- (Yes, I am an old school basement dwelling nerd) and I would love to see Death Penalty's and Permadeath be viable options in todays games.
Knowing this is a very unpopular option- Why not have 1 or 2 "Hardcore" servers? Back in the day (when I had to walk 10 miles to school in waist deep snow- Uphill, both ways) when someone was high level and well equipt- YOU KNEW that this guy/girl had some skills. Now-a-days most end gamers cant even play their class properly making PUG groups a real gamble)
I would like to see at least the OPTION of Hardcore Servers for those of us in the minority. I know games are changing and more "accesable" and what not- But they are also Boring IMO when there is really no risk... Just give us a special server. =(
I LOVE harsh death penalty's and in fact, have never experienced the rush or the danger of UO PVP- (Yes, I am an old school basement dwelling nerd) and I would love to see Death Penalty's and Permadeath be viable options in todays games.
Knowing this is a very unpopular option- Why not have 1 or 2 "Hardcore" servers? Back in the day (when I had to walk 10 miles to school in waist deep snow- Uphill, both ways) when someone was high level and well equipt- YOU KNEW that this guy/girl had some skills. Now-a-days most end gamers cant even play their class properly making PUG groups a real gamble) I would like to see at least the OPTION of Hardcore Servers for those of us in the minority. I know games are changing and more "accesable" and what not- But they are also Boring IMO when there is really no risk... Just give us a special server. =(
What Blizzard has publicly stated? There are only less than 5% (more like 2%) of the players ever raid BT or Sunwell and the number is up up up in WOTLK because the core raid is made easier with hard mode for people who want more challenges. I would like 98% pretty much qualify as "vast majority". Plus, there is already little death penalty in WOW. If you increase death penalty, it will go WAY below the 2% quoted.
What does raiding have to do with the death penalty in WoW? Do you believe that people dont raid in WoW because it costs them about 10 gold if they die? Seriously?
People choose not to raid in WoW because Blizzard has given everyone an easier method of attaining raid quality gear. You can do multiple 5 man heroic dungeons in a short time and spend tokens from those runs on gear guaranteed to fit your class/build.
The only way to solve this is with a full PvP, permadeath game being the ultimate penalty of screwing up. It'd clean house of the newbs, casual gamers, and care bear servers. Only one character can be created at a time, and only one character can be made per week. Each character created costs X amount of RL currency on top of monthly fee.
With as many hardcore gamers there are in these forums, I'm surprised that no one else has opted for such a hardcore "death penalty"... because in my eyes, everything else is "care bear" compared to said above.
What do you hardcore peeps think?
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
The only way to solve this is with a full PvP, permadeath game being the ultimate penalty of screwing up. It'd clean house of the newbs, casual gamers, and care bear servers. Only one character can be created at a time, and only one character can be made per week. Each character created costs X amount of RL currency on top of monthly fee. With as many hardcore gamers there are in these forums, I'm surprised that no one else has opted for such a hardcore "death penalty"... because in my eyes, everything else is "care bear" compared to said above. What do you hardcore peeps think?
Have fun with that. Why do people equate death penalty to the extreme permadeath? Has anyone seriously requested a permadeath MMO?
I think Decimatus makes some very good points but other than a few niche games i dont really see the system he describes as a solution... Its MMOs, not gonna wait 40 mins for the healer to have an afterlife experience so i can run an instance. And how bout PvP? Hope im not steping into controversy but something i learned back in my pnp days is some people are just cowards. There are cowardly players in WOW despite the lack of a real death penalty, and there are cowards in every single game ive played. Yea, and this are virtual worlds we are talking about.
Harsher death penalties (xp and a chance to loose some loot) are clean and simple. You res or come back from your spawn and get back in the action. Its never stopped me from taking dumb chances or even enjoying the ocasional Leroy Jenkins moment. Some people wont take chances? Sure, thats who they are. Of all the things you can do to make a character your own how you play is the more important. I will sure be pissed if i have to grind for a couple of extra hours because a noob got me killed, but thats a part of the game too. Its what interaction is all about. Why? Because it makes it so much more valuable to be good at doing your job, its what earns you the right to say epic when your party pulled something that was way over your head, its what actually makes it a sacrifice to die repeatedly for your friends and not just an empty gesture.
Im a pvper, i love the challenge of a fight when something is on the line. And no, full loot permadeath is too much of a penalty, its moronic. Im not doing 70 levels all over again just to prove im hardcore. But im ok with loosing half a weeks work and an ubered up wep. The thing is about proportion, you should do everything in your power to avoid death but not be tempted to ragequit when it comes. XP costs you nothing you cant make back, it just sets you back on the leveling race.
One of the things i absolutely loath about WOW is corpse runs, they irritate too much for me to actually continue to enjoy the game. Add to this the idiots who actually expect you to die with them so you can have a race... At least in games with xp loss i get to choose how ill make the xp back... Minigames and a creative afterlife just make it too much of a hassle to try something that will get you killed several times. No penalty and is no longer a challenge. Time is the most valuable of all resources on an MMO and you shouldnt be forced to waste it when you die.
Just to make things clear... I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
I think games like Darkfall, and EVE, have such a strong dedicated (and harsh) community because of such things as the death penalties. If you look at UO, some of the top clans of Darkfall / EVE originated from that game. I think it rules out all the people that could 'kinda like the game' and only leaves the people that really like the ruleset, leading to likeminded people playing the game.
I am currently playing Darkfall and loving it so far because its just more fun. You feel more attached to the game when you die and start cursing off your keyboard that you just lost your mount and brand new armor set. You're forced to take risks with trusting people, and sometimes that leads to friendship, or hostility and longterm enemies... either one leads to long term involvment of everyone in the community.
It is a great design for a game because of risks. A game without risk might as well throw a quicksave button in there. When you do something good in a game like Darkfall, you are happy for a while and want to talk about it and tell your story. Whereas in a game with little risk like WoW, you do something (idk what you do because there isnt anything to do thats considered 'cool' anymore) you will tell people and they will say 'yea everyone does it'.
Not all games can be like this and I am not forcing my opinion on developers or saying my opinion is right. But I am saying that personally, without risk, games effing suck REALLY bad.
... Yeah but DF has NO TRIAL and word is the game is a broken pre-Beta mess.
Until DF offers a trial (due to the horrible word of mouth) I, for one, wont be plunking down the $50 to try it- Especially since FE is offering a trial soon and the Mods at the DF forum are Nazi's (worse then $OE MOD's)
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It's nothing to do with MMOs, it's to do with games in general. Old games were based around "you have x lives, lose them and you go back to the start". Now every game basically gives you infinite lives or save points so you can keep banging your head until you make progress.
To the OP saying "stop making games aimed at 9 year olds who cant handle losing their little shiny sword.", are you for real?
Remember Sonic 2 back in the day?
You got a handful of lives, if you lost them (which was as easy as hitting a mob or spike when the screen was scrolling at light-speed) you went all the way back to the start of the whole game with NOTHING. And that was the easy mode.
The hard mode involved collecting enough rings to enter the portal minigame, which required you to execute a 3d-pacman-style maze perfectly while avoiding all the bad squares. This required PERFECT execution and knowledge of the route. If you got it wrong, that was it, start the game again. You had to get crystals from all 7? minigames to be able to transform into Super Sonic and get the proper ending. Hardcore? Well, guess what, I PLAYED THIS GAME WHEN I WAS NINE YEARS OLD. And so did loads of other people.
Anyway the point is that death penalties are for nine-year-olds. Or rather, harsh death penalties are an outdated mechanic that was perfectly acceptable in casual games years ago, but regarded as completely mad these days. It's not about difficulty, it's because games have evolved to being more creative than making people repeat stuff for ages if they fucked up.
It's not only a harsh death penalty, it's also how is it done. If you are in a forest and there is all this ambience to it, of danger, or a dungeon, if the developers have managed to create this feeling, then your reaction to a harsh death is "wow this is awsome" and you respect that environment. Otherwise, you just go and insult the game and the devs and go to the forums and write about how harsh death sucks.
So this is *another* of he things the guys at Verant did right with classic EQ.
[quote]it's because games have evolved to being more creative than making people repeat stuff for ages if they fucked up.[/quote]
Strange, that sounds like your talking about world of warcraft end game, you know, repeating the same damn instance over and over and over and over and over until they manage to do it.
The Mechanics are still there, only the death penalties have changed, in terms of WoW, as I said before there is a penalty for death, and its three fold, first is the repair cost, second is the ghost walk back to your body, and third if you die enough is they extra delay before you can get your corpse back.
Each of these three things combined amount to WoW's death penalty, and while its casual in nature, it is still in some cases worth fighting for your life while in combat when you know the grave yard is miles away, and your facing a 5-10 minute corpse run, you really will not want to die. but thats situational, if you know the game and have a grave yard close, lots of people will simply let themselves be killed without a fight. and that not only hurts them, but the person doing the killing.
My Fear is that people holding up WoW as a Perfect example of how to do it, are not just trying to copy it but their trying to improve something or implement something that's simply not designed for their games.
Again I bring up the game where my interest is at the moment, Jumpgate Evolution.
In Jumpgate Evolution if you die out in space, you simply spawn back at your last station with all your goods and items intact, you do have a repair bill, but it will follow convention and be 10% per death, which will not be something to ever put fear into a player over their possible death.
My POINT!!.
is that while WoW had three factors to its death penalty, the run back which could take 5+ minutes, the repair bill, and the possibly res delay, Jumpgate has only one of those factors, the repair bill.
Imagine WoW, without a ghost run, without res sickeness you die you simply res fully healed and ready to go at the grave yard, no time delay no penalty at all, this is the fate of players who will be asked to pay and play jumpgate evolution.
Stepping away from JGE and looking at the industry, there is a real risk now that the new wave of MMO's coming out will try and do the same thing net devil have done, and they will try and follow the trend of making death less and less meaningful, and I fear that when this eventually happens, games will stop being games and simply become social channels and places to talk, WoW for a lot of people is already nothing more than a fancy IRC chat client, how many of you log in spend hours in Iron Forge just chatting away.
I find it kind of odd that you would disparage 9 year olds when referring to death penalty and hardcore gamers.
Honestly, everyone who is between the ages of 20-30, think back to when you were even 5-9 years old. What gamers were we playing?
Mario - Permadeath
Super Ghouls and Ghosts - Permadeath
Sonic the Hedgehog - Permadeath
Gauntlet - Permadeath
Contra!?!?! - If you could beat this game without using "The Code", you were a god among men.
Warcraft - All your base are belong to us
Every single RPG that sent you back to your last save however many hours ago that you actually even remebered to save given how immersive the game felt to you.
Any number of games on the NES, SNES, or Genesis where saving games was limited or nonexistant, and lives were in very short supply. How many people fought through all the challenges and beat the games? Or at least played and had fun before moving on to fresh new challenges?
Ninja Turtles, Streets of Rage, side scrolling shooters, etc, etc, etc, ETC.
As kids we kept at these games, time after time, getting better and better, until finally the game was won. That or our mental energies were so spent that we conceded defeat to the sheer might of the game we faced and were happy to have trained with such a harsh master.
Games were hardcore, and gamers followed suit.
MMORPG's have a a problem, and it isn't simply that the death penalty is missing or lowering over time.
The problem is that these games are built around concepts where actually having a death penalty in the classic sense is too hard to bear.
Think about it. 3 lives in WoW? And then Permadeath? 10 lives? even 100? Yeah right.
What kind of death penalty is acceptable for a game like WoW?
Loosing 10% a bar of XP like they did in EQ? Great, a huge level treadmill that perpetually gets steeper and steeper. Don't think so.
Corpse run? Hardly a penalty at all. -75% stats? Sitting in town waiting for that to wear off is the exact opposite of fun. Running 3 miles back to your body is more a waste of time than anything else. Spending 3 hours gaining that 10% a bar of xp just to loose it to lag, or some fool in your party that doesn't know how to play, is also the opposite of fun.
Death penalties in MMO's are almost always completely worthless, and generally the anti-thesis of fun. I haven't played a single PvE mmo where dying or the prospect of dying did anything other than fill me with boredom, and make me lethargic. "Bah,now I have to grind another 3 hours, or sit for 10 minutes and do nothing, etc" No excitement, no adrenaline, just dread. It is generally just a feeling of being pointlessly screwed by the system when an MMO death penalty gets ahold of you.
To have an effective penalty system in an MMORPG, you simply have to be creative. Creative in a fun way, not creative in a boring way as is the case with most MMO's.
In MMO's you can neither have a death penalty that sets you back levelrs, nor can you have a penalty that just slows down the game and makes it boring. They don't work.
What you need is a penalty that makes the player overcome an obstacle to pay for that death. A FUN obstacle. Not running a mile. Not sitting and waiting for stats to return. Not loosing levels. And generally not loosing anything they have worked hours and hours for(they need to be able to get back into the game and not feel completely defeated by a single, or even a whole string of deaths).
So what obstacles to normal gameplay can we devise for a death penalty? Well, there certainly isn't one or two such obstacles, but many such obstacles so as to not get repetitive in nature.
Lets list some death penalties that don't completely suck:
Minigames - You character is knocked unconscious, and has the option of completing a short but entertaining mingame to return to consciousness. Might even be able to incorporate this in the entire death system, making players souls escape purgatory to get back to their original business, whatever that was. What minigames, how they tie into the game, and many other factors are numerous, but if done right would fit the genre better than any current penalties.
"You've lost" screens - Think about this. You just lost you last life in an NES game. You hear some sad music, maybe see a screen or two , and you are back at the start screen right? Now take this forward to an MMO. You just DIED. For some amount of time, maybe a fixed 10 seconds, 30 seconds, a full minute, or even better, variable depending on other factors; when you die you are forced to witness some graphical, audio enhanced display of what death is like in your particular gameworld. The sound of waves crashing on a beach, or the toll bells, while you stare the Grim Reaper in face until he lets you back into the mortal realm. It would give a real "Game over feel" to am MMO without having it actually be game over. I think it would be key that you give something interesting for the player to look at and or listen to while they are dead. I know they will be getting a drink and taking a piss, but they will appreciate on some level it anyway.
Quizzes - Thats right, if you die, you can't come back until you give death the answers he seeks. This piggybacks off the last option, and helps make it variable. Basically, make hundreds, no, THOUSANDS of questions relating specifically the in game lore, mechanics, etc, etc. Things about the game players should know, and maybe even things that the devs would like players to think about. The quicker you answer the question or questions, the quicker death lets you back into the mortal realm. This kills 2 birds with one stone. Noobs learn the game faster than they would otherwise, since they have to keep answering these important game questions. If they know the answer, death is short. If they don't, they keep having questions thrown at them. Eventually they learn.
Jail - The monkeys in the forest just killed/defeated you. You spawn in their camp, hanging from a tree. Maybe instance this death sequence, and make it so it is at night, and the monkeys are sleeping(or any number of scenarios). You can sneak out, or fight your way out. Your choice. Get to the exit point and you return to the game near where you "died". Apply this to whatever enemy type you like, every instance of death in a game with this type of action will be quite a bit more interesting than a corpse run. Locked cages you have to escape from, being roasted on a fire, etc, etc. Make death fun/funny, even though it is inconvenient and against the interests of your character progression.
You can think of more, I know you can.
The key here, in an MMO, is to reward your player more than you penalize them. Penalties aren't going to raise adrenaline, good gameplay tied to other factors will(battlefield objectives, tough close fights, fast paced action, etc).
In these games, players need to be having fun, even while dying.
The house of peace is built on the foundation of war.
You must conquer the land before you build you house and live in peace.
What challenge? Harsh death penalties would STOP challenge. The vast majority of players would stop taking on difficult content because they ran the risk of dying. It wouldn't make anyone risk more, it would make them risk less!
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What challenge? Harsh death penalties would STOP challenge. The vast majority of players would stop taking on difficult content because they ran the risk of dying. It wouldn't make anyone risk more, it would make them risk less!
I disagree with Cephus. What qualifies you to throw out a statement as broad as "The vast majority of players would stop taking on difficult content because they ran the risk of dying." People go out in the real world everyday to face difficulties and challenges. People join the military, new business owners, home owners, marriage (haha). Striving forward is what us humans do. It's a defining quality. This filters down to even the games we play. When things become to easy, we become bored.
Decimatus has it right. I wish I had thought of this. Great ideas. The best idea is the death quiz. It imparts lore or game info that educates the player.
Fantastic, now lets hope somedeveloper out there takes the idea and runs with it.
Asheron's Call, Champions Online, Dark Age of Camelot, EVE Online, EverQuest, Lineage 2, Star Wars Galaxies and World of Warcraft.Waiting for SWTOR
Pretty silly discussion. The games that have harsh death penalties are still around, and we have a new wave of games with them as well (Darkfall, Mortal Online, Earthrise, Im sure there are others). A softer death penalty suits some games, it doesn't suit others. If it's a big deal to you, choose a game that has them.
I think in a lot of ways when people make threads like this they think about EverQuest. Altho I didn't read the entire OP so maybe not this time. Obviously the death penalty was lessened over time.
My personal view is it comes back to when people actually depended on others. Obviously you could still solo in EQ1... I actually solo'd my druid to 50 and had left my friends so far behind I spent .. way to much time being a power level "buddy" after.
Its not one of those things I would say is "better". At one point MMO's seemed to be designed to really encourage making friends. I liked the community in early MMO's a lot better but that's something you can't really control.
What challenge? Harsh death penalties would STOP challenge. The vast majority of players would stop taking on difficult content because they ran the risk of dying. It wouldn't make anyone risk more, it would make them risk less!
I disagree with Cephus. What qualifies you to throw out a statement as broad as "The vast majority of players would stop taking on difficult content because they ran the risk of dying." People go out in the real world everyday to face difficulties and challenges. People join the military, new business owners, home owners, marriage (haha). Striving forward is what us humans do. It's a defining quality. This filters down to even the games we play. When things become to easy, we become bored.
I don't think he's wrong at all. Real World and game world are two different things. from my experience, players who risk harsh penalties in a game tend NOT to take challenges, especially when the reward is just knowing that you "might" be able to solo that boss. Now, if the reward was extremely great, then yes, I think some people would. However, not all.
How many people really open their own business or take a gamble on some off the path career that may or may not give them something more than your regular 8 hour job?
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Im sorry but I have no desire to play a silly minigame as punishment for death. EXP and level loss is fine but nothing that takes me away from the game im trying to play. In order to have reward, there has to be some sort of risk. Most games today have taken all risk out, which makes the rewards feel like handouts. If you die in a WoW dungeon, you spawn 30 seconds away from the entrance, run back in and start over. Yes it can cost 8-10 gold per death to repair but you make 10 times that amount from the vendor loot on each run so you arent being penalized anything.
You are arguing on a completely emotional level. Really? 9 year olds? You are telling me that some 9 year old's allowance is running the juggernaut of popular mmo's at this point?
If I were to look at popular mmo's I would say that most of them have a far more lenient death penalty. I highly doubt that all of those mmo's are being supported by the mercurial whims of a 9 year old.
It seems to me that the emphasis of these financially successful games is for lighter death penalties. Since we know that there are a lot of "adults" playing one would have to ask what games are they playing that have have these heavy death penalties?
Of the adults I know who play games, and of the smaller sub section that play mmo's, the majority of them play World of Warcraft. And we know that the death penalty is rather light there.
You'd have to show that the mmo genre was financially suffering in the statement that I quoted in order for them to "wake up" and change their ways. But the genre is not financially suffering when it comes to the successful games that exist.
You might not like the games that are out that are successful but I don't see the need for game companies to change given that the games that are successful are angled toward more casual players.
I wasn't the one who introduced the 9-year old demographic into the discussion.
ah ok, then apologies, I was commenting on that specific sentence that you included and didn't see it elsewhere. 'That' part can got to whoever else said it ; )
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While I agree with the OP (of course, I'm an EVE player) I am a realist and understand that when it comes to gaming, most people don't like to incur harsh death penalities.
What used to be standard (losing XP if you die) is now considered a regressive oddity if its included in a game (a la Aion).
Losing gear on death? Lineage 2 was the last major title to include it and only smaller titles like DF and the early games still keep the mechanic going forward.
No, I didn't forget EVE, but keep in mind, its fairly easy to control your losses (if not prevent them entirely) and most veteran players will tell you they never really lose anything they can't afford to.
Most Developers have one primary goal, keep their investors happy by getting as many subs as they can and get the money flowing in.
They won't code in severe death penalties since thats not what a majority of players are willing to pay for.
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Average age of WOW player is 28. Low/no death penalty did just fine on that.
People like the OP needs to let go of unpopular game mechanics. Eve is stuck at 300k .. a niche .. because of amongst other things .. high death penalty.
There is no point to it except making games frustrating and increase the grind. It does not make the games more challenging (that can simply be done by making it difficult to kill mobs).
In fact, LOW death penalty is GOOD. It gets players to try new things out easier. No one is going to wear that shiny piece of armor into battle if they can lose it .. and if so, what is the point of getting it in the first place?
Kyleran: "No, I didn't forget EVE, but keep in mind, its fairly easy to control your losses (if not prevent them entirely) and most veteran players will tell you they never really lose anything they can't afford to."
That control/prevention is the primary reason item loss in EVE doesn't completely fall apart (even their overall PVP system necessitates a lot of tedious mechanics.)
Kyleran: "They won't code in severe death penalties since thats not what a majority of players are willing to pay for."
Exactly. Players want fun. Harsh death penalties don't really add to fun. They add a sense of danger, which for most players isn't worth the loss in fun factor.
Decimatus: "Quizzes..."
All of the questions would be Wowheadable before the game even released. Sure, players will still end up inadvertantly learning about the game's lore while looking up the answers, but the Quiz Death Mechanic sort of loses something when you reword it to what's actually going to happen:
Excellent post overall though. Particularly adept at countering the notion of "death penalty is for adults", which is actually pretty far from the truth given how adults typically learn to want to optimize their time -- when they play a game they want to spend their time playing the game, not dealing with some death penalty.
Yavin: "Imagine WoW, without a ghost run, without res sickeness you die you simply res fully healed and ready to go at the grave yard, no time delay no penalty at all, this is the fate of players who will be asked to pay and play jumpgate evolution."
I'll take your word for JGE's system being poorly designed.
However, here's a system with "zero" death penalty which actually causes you significant loss upon death:
By the time you reach Sector 5, you've got 50 mins invested and are finally starting to make solid XP/credits from the enemies. If you die there, despite "zero" death penalty, you're going to have to restart from Sector 1. This means a long period of crappy XP/credits just to get back to where you were. You never lose anything, except the stuff you would have potentially gained.
The cool part is the graveyard can be right next door to Sector 1. You immediately get back into the action (instead of the developer telling you you can't play his game for the next 5 mins or whatever.)
The less cool part (for most players) is it has to be an instance-heavy game.
The point being that without sufficient information it's hard to judge a game as having a painful enough death penalty. Because the system I just described would spawn a forum post "OMG, this game has no death penalty how crappy is that!?" and yet such a post would be woefully inaccurate of the true "cost" behind dying.
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What challenge? Harsh death penalties would STOP challenge. The vast majority of players would stop taking on difficult content because they ran the risk of dying. It wouldn't make anyone risk more, it would make them risk less!
I disagree with Cephus. What qualifies you to throw out a statement as broad as "The vast majority of players would stop taking on difficult content because they ran the risk of dying." People go out in the real world everyday to face difficulties and challenges. People join the military, new business owners, home owners, marriage (haha). Striving forward is what us humans do. It's a defining quality. This filters down to even the games we play. When things become to easy, we become bored.
What Blizzard has publicly stated? There are only less than 5% (more like 2%) of the players ever raid BT or Sunwell and the number is up up up in WOTLK because the core raid is made easier with hard mode for people who want more challenges.
I would like 98% pretty much qualify as "vast majority".
Plus, there is already little death penalty in WOW. If you increase death penalty, it will go WAY below the 2% quoted.
I LOVE harsh death penalty's and in fact, have never experienced the rush or the danger of UO PVP- (Yes, I am an old school basement dwelling nerd) and I would love to see Death Penalty's and Permadeath be viable options in todays games.
Knowing this is a very unpopular option- Why not have 1 or 2 "Hardcore" servers? Back in the day (when I had to walk 10 miles to school in waist deep snow- Uphill, both ways) when someone was high level and well equipt- YOU KNEW that this guy/girl had some skills. Now-a-days most end gamers cant even play their class properly making PUG groups a real gamble)
I would like to see at least the OPTION of Hardcore Servers for those of us in the minority. I know games are changing and more "accesable" and what not- But they are also Boring IMO when there is really no risk... Just give us a special server. =(
/signed
What does raiding have to do with the death penalty in WoW? Do you believe that people dont raid in WoW because it costs them about 10 gold if they die? Seriously?
People choose not to raid in WoW because Blizzard has given everyone an easier method of attaining raid quality gear. You can do multiple 5 man heroic dungeons in a short time and spend tokens from those runs on gear guaranteed to fit your class/build.
The only way to solve this is with a full PvP, permadeath game being the ultimate penalty of screwing up. It'd clean house of the newbs, casual gamers, and care bear servers. Only one character can be created at a time, and only one character can be made per week. Each character created costs X amount of RL currency on top of monthly fee.
With as many hardcore gamers there are in these forums, I'm surprised that no one else has opted for such a hardcore "death penalty"... because in my eyes, everything else is "care bear" compared to said above.
What do you hardcore peeps think?
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Have fun with that. Why do people equate death penalty to the extreme permadeath? Has anyone seriously requested a permadeath MMO?
I think Decimatus makes some very good points but other than a few niche games i dont really see the system he describes as a solution... Its MMOs, not gonna wait 40 mins for the healer to have an afterlife experience so i can run an instance. And how bout PvP? Hope im not steping into controversy but something i learned back in my pnp days is some people are just cowards. There are cowardly players in WOW despite the lack of a real death penalty, and there are cowards in every single game ive played. Yea, and this are virtual worlds we are talking about.
Harsher death penalties (xp and a chance to loose some loot) are clean and simple. You res or come back from your spawn and get back in the action. Its never stopped me from taking dumb chances or even enjoying the ocasional Leroy Jenkins moment. Some people wont take chances? Sure, thats who they are. Of all the things you can do to make a character your own how you play is the more important. I will sure be pissed if i have to grind for a couple of extra hours because a noob got me killed, but thats a part of the game too. Its what interaction is all about. Why? Because it makes it so much more valuable to be good at doing your job, its what earns you the right to say epic when your party pulled something that was way over your head, its what actually makes it a sacrifice to die repeatedly for your friends and not just an empty gesture.
Im a pvper, i love the challenge of a fight when something is on the line. And no, full loot permadeath is too much of a penalty, its moronic. Im not doing 70 levels all over again just to prove im hardcore. But im ok with loosing half a weeks work and an ubered up wep. The thing is about proportion, you should do everything in your power to avoid death but not be tempted to ragequit when it comes. XP costs you nothing you cant make back, it just sets you back on the leveling race.
One of the things i absolutely loath about WOW is corpse runs, they irritate too much for me to actually continue to enjoy the game. Add to this the idiots who actually expect you to die with them so you can have a race... At least in games with xp loss i get to choose how ill make the xp back... Minigames and a creative afterlife just make it too much of a hassle to try something that will get you killed several times. No penalty and is no longer a challenge. Time is the most valuable of all resources on an MMO and you shouldnt be forced to waste it when you die.
Just to make things clear...
I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
I think games like Darkfall, and EVE, have such a strong dedicated (and harsh) community because of such things as the death penalties. If you look at UO, some of the top clans of Darkfall / EVE originated from that game. I think it rules out all the people that could 'kinda like the game' and only leaves the people that really like the ruleset, leading to likeminded people playing the game.
I am currently playing Darkfall and loving it so far because its just more fun. You feel more attached to the game when you die and start cursing off your keyboard that you just lost your mount and brand new armor set. You're forced to take risks with trusting people, and sometimes that leads to friendship, or hostility and longterm enemies... either one leads to long term involvment of everyone in the community.
It is a great design for a game because of risks. A game without risk might as well throw a quicksave button in there. When you do something good in a game like Darkfall, you are happy for a while and want to talk about it and tell your story. Whereas in a game with little risk like WoW, you do something (idk what you do because there isnt anything to do thats considered 'cool' anymore) you will tell people and they will say 'yea everyone does it'.
Not all games can be like this and I am not forcing my opinion on developers or saying my opinion is right. But I am saying that personally, without risk, games effing suck REALLY bad.
... Yeah but DF has NO TRIAL and word is the game is a broken pre-Beta mess.
Until DF offers a trial (due to the horrible word of mouth) I, for one, wont be plunking down the $50 to try it- Especially since FE is offering a trial soon and the Mods at the DF forum are Nazi's (worse then $OE MOD's)