I've never quite understood xp loss at death. Taking 'experience' literally, wouldn't going through actions that result in death grant me more experience? I attempted something, and failed via the means or manner in which I attempted it. Clearly, I am now more knowledgeable, more experienced, than before. I understand the set-back and why it's implimented, but the concept of 'experience' from a linguist point of view swims upstream from this xp-loss trend and its reasons for implimentation. Probably just an irk with wording and usage.
You would equate it to learning from your mistakes. If there is no penalty involved, how could it be classified as a mistake?
You don't use safety goggles when using power tools, you get something in your eye, yhou go to the hospital to get it fixed, and you feel pain, so you put on the safety goggles next time.
The xp loss is the going to the hospital part and hte pain. They can't make you feel real pain in an MMORPG unles they hook you up to electrodes while you play the game, but they can make you feel the pain of losing xp.
The OP is describing what a chunk of gamers want. That is simply, game immersion. However putting forward death penalty as the main way of doing this is a fallacy. When you look at most games, MMORPGS, you have a role playing game at its base. You are playing pretend, not unlike as children when you played Cops & Robbers, however you have see rules you must obey. They are the next logical step from single player games which were a logical step from the old Pen and Paper days.
Now to really look at what I feel is wrong here you have to go all the way back to the beginning. Of the old PnP games the great grand sire of them all would be D&D. Gary Gygax gave the world quite a gift when he came up with that great little past time of rolling dice and escaping to another world for hours on end. There was a basic rule set that was fairly equal and then there were a ton of alternate rules so that you could tailor your game the way you liked to play.
Currently the developers are missing a golden opportunity to make a LOT of money by not following the same idea. That being creating a world with a basic rule set that can be used for multiple genres and then creating alternate rule sets to cover every kind of player out there. Go beyond the PvP server, Non PvP server, and role playing server. Instead have a server of permadeath, a server where you are responsible for every action you take through a strict reputation system, a never die system, etc, etc, etc.
In relation to players like the OP if you get more of a rush out of the game that would give you the ability to play the same game as someone who hates that idea. And the possibilities are endless on how many different customers that a developer could get using a lot of the same core content. Kind of surprising really that no one has done that.
It's too bad there is no permadeath MMO out there with which we could weigh these discussions, not even a permadeath server. I think MMO companies are more afraid of CS issues that would arise as a result of things like losing your character to lag etc. But in D2 many people lost their high level characters to lag all the time, It happened to me more than once, and there was no one to petition there, you just focused on how your going to spec differently and hear the "Evil Beware" once again =D
I don't see why no one has even made a HC MMO server yet. They could have made it like Sullon Zek, no rules, no petitions, no GM (unless your a fansy), then they'd have nothing to worry about. Why not?
I'd say just use straight up time as a penalty. Just unable to move fora period of time, is good. the bigger the penalty you want it to be, the more time it is.
Except that'll lose you players. If a player is required to just sit there and stare at the screen without doing anything, they'll say the hell with it and stop playing the game. That's a loss of revenue for the company. If you're going to use time as a penalty, it has to be time actively spent doing something interesting enough to keep the player engaged, otherwise... bad idea.
You would equate it to learning from your mistakes. If there is no penalty involved, how could it be classified as a mistake?
You don't use safety goggles when using power tools, you get something in your eye, yhou go to the hospital to get it fixed, and you feel pain, so you put on the safety goggles next time.
The xp loss is the going to the hospital part and hte pain. They can't make you feel real pain in an MMORPG unles they hook you up to electrodes while you play the game, but they can make you feel the pain of losing xp.
PO-TA-TOE, PO-TAH-TOE. I understand the purpose and the reasoning, as previously stated, but the word 'experience' doesn't fit with 'a loss of'. I understand fully the point you're trying to make with the metaphor, but 'experience' is not lost even in a real-world situation. You've grown from your mistake, as you've clearly stated yourself.
The 'pain' you describe is the means to an end- the slap on the wrist for dying. Dying not being a goal, and thus a no-no. But from a linguist, or roleplaying, point of view, to lose 'experience' is something that just doesn't really happen. Unless perhaps we link 'experience' to losing knowledge after warping from the death plane to the living? Or some other abstract manner of tying loss of memory to reincarnation inside of a game world?
Again, I understand the purpose, the why, but the word used in this manner... I don't know. I just irks me a bit. But I digress! This thread is full of win and most posts are insightful and interesting.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
The only thing working against perma-death in MMOs is, well, population. If we're dealing with a leveling model, and perma-death is involved, that's a lot of regrinding involved. Give me 4-5 deaths while I was AFK or otherwise involved doing something else, and that's frustration that I didn't deserve. Knowing this, I wouldn't see myself sustaining playtime in the game. If we're dealing with an open model, I still have regrinding to be done via gear and abilities, and the same senario rolls out.
Take a paper game like DD and perma-death is a reasonable choice in gaming. The only caveat at play here is that there is a DM who, if he's doing his job, won't allow 'stupid deaths' to occur. In an MMO, that sort of detailed involvement would be nigh impossible to impliment.
Maybe like playing a basketball game of 21? Go over the cap and revert back to 13. Applied to a game: die ingame, revert back to a save point 10 levels earlier?
Thinking out loud: one really, really kick MMO that perma-death would actually play an integral part of would be... a Highlander MMO. I think I'm just going to marinate over that thought a bit, discuss it with coworkers.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
The only thing working against perma-death in MMOs is, well, population. If we're dealing with a leveling model, and perma-death is involved, that's a lot of regrinding involved. Give me 4-5 deaths while I was AFK or otherwise involved doing something else, and that's frustration that I didn't deserve. Knowing this, I wouldn't see myself sustaining playtime in the game. If we're dealing with an open model, I still have regrinding to be done via gear and abilities, and the same senario rolls out. Take a paper game like DD and perma-death is a reasonable choice in gaming. The only caveat at play here is that there is a DM who, if he's doing his job, won't allow 'stupid deaths' to occur. In an MMO, that sort of detailed involvement would be nigh impossible to impliment. Maybe like playing a basketball game of 21? Go over the cap and revert back to 13. Applied to a game: die ingame, revert back to a save point 10 levels earlier? Thinking out loud: one really, really kick MMO that perma-death would actually play an integral part of would be... a Highlander MMO. I think I'm just going to marinate over that thought a bit, discuss it with coworkers.
Exactly. There are all kinds of ways that you can die that are not your fault. What happens if your net connection lags? What happens if your computer blue-screens? What happens if the MMO's server crashes? I've gotten killed because of all of these things before, I don't want to lose anything significant because of things that are entirely beyond my control. Dying is no fun, losing things because of a stupid, pointless death is even worse.
The only thing working against perma-death in MMOs is, well, population. If we're dealing with a leveling model, and perma-death is involved, that's a lot of regrinding involved. Give me 4-5 deaths while I was AFK or otherwise involved doing something else, and that's frustration that I didn't deserve. Knowing this, I wouldn't see myself sustaining playtime in the game. If we're dealing with an open model, I still have regrinding to be done via gear and abilities, and the same senario rolls out. Take a paper game like DD and perma-death is a reasonable choice in gaming. The only caveat at play here is that there is a DM who, if he's doing his job, won't allow 'stupid deaths' to occur. In an MMO, that sort of detailed involvement would be nigh impossible to impliment. Maybe like playing a basketball game of 21? Go over the cap and revert back to 13. Applied to a game: die ingame, revert back to a save point 10 levels earlier? Thinking out loud: one really, really kick MMO that perma-death would actually play an integral part of would be... a Highlander MMO. I think I'm just going to marinate over that thought a bit, discuss it with coworkers.
Exactly. There are all kinds of ways that you can die that are not your fault. What happens if your net connection lags? What happens if your computer blue-screens? What happens if the MMO's server crashes? I've gotten killed because of all of these things before, I don't want to lose anything significant because of things that are entirely beyond my control. Dying is no fun, losing things because of a stupid, pointless death is even worse.
You're right, but people are still willing to risk all of that if it means the excitement they're looking for. I played D2 HC for years, died to TPPKers, lag, power outages, and just bad luck, but even though you had to start all the way over, the thrill of making it through a dungeon knowing full well that every move could be your last is worth all that. D2 was released in 2000 and it's still sitting right there in store shelves today, and has probably sold more copies than many MMOs have. There are still a lot of people playing hardcore mode, but the thing about D2 is, the client is unsafe, people hack and Blizz can't stop it. Dying to TPPKers suck after so many times, that is one reason I would be interested in a permadeath MMO or server, because typically MMO clients are much safer from hacks than peer to peer or hosted multiplayer clients.
You're right, but people are still willing to risk all of that if it means the excitement they're looking for. I played D2 HC for years, died to TPPKers, lag, power outages, and just bad luck, but even though you had to start all the way over, the thrill of making it through a dungeon knowing full well that every move could be your last is worth all that. D2 was released in 2000 and it's still sitting right there in store shelves today, and has probably sold more copies than many MMOs have. There are still a lot of people playing hardcore mode, but the thing about D2 is, the client is unsafe, people hack and Blizz can't stop it. Dying to TPPKers suck after so many times, that is one reason I would be interested in a permadeath MMO or server, because typically MMO clients are much safer from hacks than peer to peer or hosted multiplayer clients.
Good for you, I'm sure not willing to do that. In fact, if an MMO's server issues, server lag or whatever caused me to lose a character, gear, loot, etc. I'd be on the phone to customer service demanding it all be restored so fast it would make your head spin. Most people would. It's one thing to die if you do something stupid. It's another thing to die because of something entirely beyond your control.
In the single player games that came between PnP and MMOs there were a few different types.
In this post I am only going to address the types of character saves they allowed.
There were checkpoint saves where you reached a certain point in the game and could save. Most people did, unless they were an idiot, but people complained because they were too stupid to save it should be automatic.
Then there were checkpoints that once you passed them you auto saved however players complained there were not enough of them.
Then there were auto save points and additional save points where players could save if they wished. Again you would be an idiot not too however this still angered people because they wanted to be able to save whenever they wanted.
So most of the single player games let you save almost anywhere or anywhere. Then people just started pulling up cheat codes and walk thru's to make it through easier.
The point is there are always going to be people who are focused more on winning/achieving than playing the game. They are so hooked on catching the carrot on the stick that they forget the whole purpose of being there is to have fun.
MMOs have just become a contest of how to give the most wow for the longest period of time. The carrot gets split in to parts and you keep collecting bigger and bigger parts as you progress. Never is anyone talking about the storyline of an MMO, they are always talking about levels and gear. Granted in the old PnP days gear was sweet to get however you talked about the ADVENTURE you had getting the gear.
One of the most memorable adventures I had involved my ENTIRE party dying. I was the last one up and could have run and come back and saved the group. That would have been the smart thing to do. However I was running a cleric of war and he didn't run. Ever. So I did a final stand and blew the top off the mountain and stopped an invading horde before they could reach the city. Broke a staff of power to do it. It was a great storyline leading up to that point and to this day my friends and I still talk about what a great game it was. And we all died.
I don't think it is about death or no death. I think it is more about people having fun. For most people the thought of losing items, exp or time is not fun. However, that is more a reflection of poorly designed games rather than a true reflection of how mechanics should work.
First... I agree with much of the OP's sentiments.
In every MMO I've played that hasn't had any death penalty above a corpse run or minor gear damage, I've seen a greater amount of careless and reckless players who will run haphazardly into any situation, even one they know will cause the death of them and/or their party's characters. They don't care... Why should they? The cemetery's just around the corner and the loss of gear durability is negligible. To use a phrase out of context, because it describes the situation well, they often "fail their way to success". Even if you die 10 times in the process, if you keep throwing yourself at that mob, or keep trying to run haphazardly through that area, eventually you'll get it.
People use death in many new MMOs as a convenient way to travel. My brother was bragging about how he explored a lot of Azeroth by hopping around between cemeteries and it hardly cost him anything in repairs relative to the amount of money he could make.
I mean, seriously... there's something wrong with that picture. Death should be the consequence of failure that players actively try to avoid... not a convenient mode of transportation.
On the other hand, every MMO I've played where death has a definite bite... be it significant XP loss, possible loss of a level (if you lose enough xp), loss of gear, etc... players are, by and large, much more strategic, much more thoughtful and not even *remotely* as reckless as they are in those with less severe, or no death penalty at all.
In FFXI, Lineage 2 and other MMOs of that ilk where death has a bite that *means* something to your character, players have been, by far, more cautious and strategic. It's not because they're "better players" - it's because they know the penalty of failing, so they're not going to take pointless risks, they're going to choose their fights carefully, at all times - not only when they're fighting end-game raid bosses, etc.
In FFXI there are many times when you'll get a quest or otherwise need to go through a very dangerous area. Knowing how different mobs aggro (sight? sound? magic? scent?) and what type of preparations you need to make to get through as safely as possible actually *matters*. And it's always a cool feeling when you do so successfully. I'm playing FFXI since it came out in the US 7+ years ago, and safely making it through Ifrit's Cauldron or Den of Rancor or other similarly dangerous areas *still* feels like an accomplishment, like a mini victory, because one screw up in any of those places could very well mean death... even at level cap. Defeating a tough boss or surviving an encounter that seems doomed is all the sweeter because you *know* what penalties failing would carry.
So, at least to me, it's not a matter of "people who like games with harsh death penalties are better gamers"... Not at all. It's simply that to us, it's more *fun* to have that extra sense of danger, or to require that extra bit of strategy or caution... it makes the game more exciting and more enjoyable to play.
There are some who say "well, it's time wasted when you lose xp". I've always found that to be a funny argument in the context of playing a video game; "I'm wasting time... while wasting time". And, it's even more so in a MMO considering you're talking about maybe an hour or two to recover lost xp in a game that the average player will invest *hundreds* of hours into over the course of playing it.
Again, I can understand some people don't enjoy death penalties; I understand that perfectly well. That's their prerogative. However, I think it's at least useful to understand that those of us who prefer a harsher death penalty in a MMO - at least some of us - aren't "masochists who enjoy dying and wasting hours of our lives"... to the contrary, we enjoy the heightened sense of knowing what the penalties are for failure. We don't like dying either... we simply enjoy the fact that avoiding it is *that* much more meaningful (in gameplay terms) than it would be if dying carried no penalty beyond negligible gear damage. It's a time-old concept, especially in games, the greater the risk, the sweeter the reward.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
A PVE game with a significant death penalty where the player can balance risk by playing intelligently is reasonable for players who want more of a challenge.
A PVP game with a significant death penalty often does not allow a player to balance risk with intelligent play. In many games with a PVP focus a player through no fault of their own can lose significant progress to other players who's main goal is to grief or gank.
I personally like a fair playing field. If I am subject to harsh penalties then by playing intelligently and skillfully I should be able to mitigate those penalties. If I am unable to migate the risk I through intelligent or skillfull play I am out of there.
So a more significant death penalty in a PVE game could be enjoyable for some but I don't see it happing due to the overall trend in gaming.
I don't hate the trend. MMOs are in theory supposed to be a social setting for people to play together and have fun. If this trend allows more people to experience the MMO genre then cool.
Asheron's Call, Champions Online, Dark Age of Camelot, EVE Online, EverQuest, Lineage 2, Star Wars Galaxies and World of Warcraft.Waiting for SWTOR
My thoughts A PVE game with a significant death penalty where the player can balance risk by playing intelligently is reasonable for players who want more of a challenge.
Harsh death penalty isn't challenge. It's penalty. Penalty is what happens when you fail the challenge.
I want challenge. I don't want excessive penalty.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
My thoughts A PVE game with a significant death penalty where the player can balance risk by playing intelligently is reasonable for players who want more of a challenge.
Harsh death penalty isn't challenge. It's penalty. Penalty is what happens when you fail the challenge.
I want challenge. I don't want excessive penalty.
The penalty doesn't create the challenge, the penalty is by which you measure your successes. Without having ever seen darkness, by what do you measure light?
Sorry for the analogy lol, but I think it fits. If I overcome a challenge, but there was no risk involved, I would view that victory with indifference. Where no penalty is applied, you can simply keep losing over and over again until you finally win, but that would not be much of a victory in my mind.
Suppose you saw a clown walking the highwire at a circus, with harnesses attached to him and a safety net underneath, then at the next ring the same act is happening with no harness or net, which clown would you be more interested in, and which would get more enjoyment from his accomplishments?
I'm not saying that enjoying a game without penalties is wrong or impossible, but I am saying that there are plenty of people who would rather have the penalties there, because of how they amplify success when overcoming the challenges.
The penalty doesn't create the challenge, the penalty is by which you measure your successes. Without having ever seen darkness, by what do you measure light?
Sorry for the analogy lol, but I think it fits. If I overcome a challenge, but there was no risk involved, I would view that victory with indifference. Where no penalty is applied, you can simply keep losing over and over again until you finally win, but that would not be much of a victory in my mind.
This is totally stupid. You measure you success by how tough the challenge is, not by how much meaningless penalty after a failure.
Just take boss fight ... even if you lose nothing but only your time, don't you think people feel better beating hard mode then normal mode. In fact, that is how FPS are designed because no matter how hard it is, they do NOT add unnecessarily penalty after you die. And don't tell me PvP FPS has no challenge.
Ditto for challenge in other areas, even work. There is no penalty if you try and fail to solve the P=NP (one of those million dollar math problem) except your time. However, whoever solves it gets a Field's medal. Now tell me it is not worthwhile to do just because no one asked you to sit in a box for 1 month if you fail.
The last line "you can simply keep losing over and over again until you finally win" is totally stupid. No one can win a hard mode boss fight by simply lose again and again. You need to learn to play the fight. Less than 2% players ever beat Sunwell. Tell me people can just win by trying and trying .. LOL.
The penalty doesn't create the challenge, the penalty is by which you measure your successes. Without having ever seen darkness, by what do you measure light? Sorry for the analogy lol, but I think it fits. If I overcome a challenge, but there was no risk involved, I would view that victory with indifference. Where no penalty is applied, you can simply keep losing over and over again until you finally win, but that would not be much of a victory in my mind. This is totally stupid. You measure you success by how tough the challenge is, not by how much meaningless penalty after a failure. Just take boss fight ... even if you lose nothing but only your time, don't you think people feel better beating hard mode then normal mode. In fact, that is how FPS are designed because no matter how hard it is, they do NOT add unnecessarily penalty after you die. And don't tell me PvP FPS has no challenge. Ditto for challenge in other areas, even work. There is no penalty if you try and fail to solve the P=NP (one of those million dollar math problem) except your time. However, whoever solves it gets a Field's medal. Now tell me it is not worthwhile to do just because no one asked you to sit in a box for 1 month if you fail. The last line "you can simply keep losing over and over again until you finally win" is totally stupid. No one can win a hard mode boss fight by simply lose again and again. You need to learn to play the fight. Less than 2% players ever beat Sunwell. Tell me people can just win by trying and trying .. LOL.
Well, less than 2% of players ever beat Sunwell, right? But how many players have tried to beat Sunwell, again and again and again, without beating it? I'm pretty sure those 2% didn't all do it in one go, they probably did it like, 6 times, and then finally finished it on the 7th or some crap.
Like, if death was some sort of ominous thing, like it probably should be, you know, since it's death, then people would be more wary about going into the dungeon. People leaving raids wouldn't happen because, hey, people would be thinking "man, I have to go to work soon, and I don't want that penalty of death for leaving, I'd better just not do this raid then"
Disconnects would still suck, but that's a problem with someone's internet or computer, it's not the game's fault.
Games like WoW are trying to keep many millions of players happy - people don't like death, so hey, let's make them eventually enjoy dying now and then. Wheee, look how fast my little legs go when I'm dead! Etc.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
Originally posted by heremypet Sorry for the analogy lol, but I think it fits. If I overcome a challenge, but there was no risk involved, I would view that victory with indifference. Where no penalty is applied, you can simply keep losing over and over again until you finally win, but that would not be much of a victory in my mind.
I just don't see this argument at all. I understand risk is important for some players, but to say you can't have fun at all without risk is extremist, and you are very much in the minority with that sort of opinion.
One angle I could take is pointing out that you're playing a videogame, so there's no risk, so how could you ever have fun playing games?
Another angle I could take is that everything is a small risk -- dying in Halo and being sent back 10 seconds of gameplay just "cost" you 10 seconds of your time.
I'll take your clown example a few steps further:
Clown A still has no harness. Now he's over a pit of molten lava. With spikes. But he's just walking a simple tightrope.
Clown B still has a harness. Now he juggles. And ninja-flips between multiple tightropes, some of which are in constant lateral motion, others which are in constant rotation around a central pillar.
Clown B is far more interesting to watch. The skill involved is many times greater, and the achievement would be many times more impressive.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The penalty doesn't create the challenge, the penalty is by which you measure your successes. Without having ever seen darkness, by what do you measure light? Sorry for the analogy lol, but I think it fits. If I overcome a challenge, but there was no risk involved, I would view that victory with indifference. Where no penalty is applied, you can simply keep losing over and over again until you finally win, but that would not be much of a victory in my mind. This is totally stupid. You measure you success by how tough the challenge is, not by how much meaningless penalty after a failure. Just take boss fight ... even if you lose nothing but only your time, don't you think people feel better beating hard mode then normal mode. In fact, that is how FPS are designed because no matter how hard it is, they do NOT add unnecessarily penalty after you die. And don't tell me PvP FPS has no challenge. Ditto for challenge in other areas, even work. There is no penalty if you try and fail to solve the P=NP (one of those million dollar math problem) except your time. However, whoever solves it gets a Field's medal. Now tell me it is not worthwhile to do just because no one asked you to sit in a box for 1 month if you fail. The last line "you can simply keep losing over and over again until you finally win" is totally stupid. No one can win a hard mode boss fight by simply lose again and again. You need to learn to play the fight. Less than 2% players ever beat Sunwell. Tell me people can just win by trying and trying .. LOL.
Well, less than 2% of players ever beat Sunwell, right? But how many players have tried to beat Sunwell, again and again and again, without beating it? I'm pretty sure those 2% didn't all do it in one go, they probably did it like, 6 times, and then finally finished it on the 7th or some crap.
Like, if death was some sort of ominous thing, like it probably should be, you know, since it's death, then people would be more wary about going into the dungeon. People leaving raids wouldn't happen because, hey, people would be thinking "man, I have to go to work soon, and I don't want that penalty of death for leaving, I'd better just not do this raid then"
Disconnects would still suck, but that's a problem with someone's internet or computer, it's not the game's fault.
Games like WoW are trying to keep many millions of players happy - people don't like death, so hey, let's make them eventually enjoy dying now and then. Wheee, look how fast my little legs go when I'm dead! Etc.
As games like Eve and such have demonstrated, if you make the death penalty harsh, a smaller fraction of your player base will even take part. Make it harsh enough, and players will not even bother with your game. Its not like the time of UO, when there wasn't much of a choice. These days there are literally hundreds of games to play. Your last demonstrates that you don't understand the basic reality that Blizzard obviously does... Or they wouldn't have almost 12 million players. That being that you play to your demographic. They have different modes for the various instances. If you want to try to face roll your way through one of the top tier boss fights on hard mode, I doubt you are going to be pleased at the result...
Corpse runs, experience loss, gear loss and all the rest of the barbaric relics of an earlier age of MMO development should stay buried in the past, where they so richly deserve to be. There are other paths to this "challenge" that some seek.
This is totally stupid. You measure you success by how tough the challenge is, not by how much meaningless penalty after a failure.
Then by your logic, jumping a distance of 12 feet on a sidewalk, and jumping 12 feet between rail cars on a moving train are the same. The challenge is identical. But tell me, would your preparations for these two feats also be the same? What about the spectators, would they react the same? Would you're pulse be the same while you're jumping? Would you take the same amount of pride in either situation? No, the only thing that is the same is the challenge, just about everything else is different.
I assume you play FPS where you respawn immediately after dying, what's the point? I would prefer CS style FPS where when you die you wait until the end of the match. You know it's funny how that style of FPS makes people play smarter, now why is that? Doesn't sound "totally stupid" to me.
Originally posted by heremypet Sorry for the analogy lol, but I think it fits. If I overcome a challenge, but there was no risk involved, I would view that victory with indifference. Where no penalty is applied, you can simply keep losing over and over again until you finally win, but that would not be much of a victory in my mind.
I just don't see this argument at all. I understand risk is important for some players, but to say you can't have fun at all without risk is extremist, and you are very much in the minority with that sort of opinion.
One angle I could take is pointing out that you're playing a videogame, so there's no risk, so how could you ever have fun playing games?
Another angle I could take is that everything is a small risk -- dying in Halo and being sent back 10 seconds of gameplay just "cost" you 10 seconds of your time.
I'll take your clown example a few steps further:
Clown A still has no harness. Now he's over a pit of molten lava. With spikes. But he's just walking a simple tightrope.
Clown B still has a harness. Now he juggles. And ninja-flips between multiple tightropes, some of which are in constant lateral motion, others which are in constant rotation around a central pillar.
Clown B is far more interesting to watch. The skill involved is many times greater, and the achievement would be many times more impressive.
You can say I'm extremist, minority, etc all you want, but that is largely speculation.
Your second angle answers your first in part, sure It's not life and death, but the risk is still win or lose, but that isn't the argument. The argument is: what is a win for you isn't a win for me. If one player beats an equally matched opponent, only to see him respawn and finish his last little sliver of life off, that is not a win to me. Sure PvP in MMOs aren't fair, but that is partially why I like it, you can call that extremist if you wish, but killing a level 60 sorc at 40, or taking on 2 or 3 even cons, that's what it's about =P
You ignored my clown scenario, I'll look at your when you at least acknowledge it.
oh yeah a poster above is right there is death penalties with fps' (1) where maybe you have to run back a fair distance to a fighting location or (2) where you must wait till a round is over or (3) where you must wait a certain amount of seconds especially in TF2 attack-defence maps.
In mmos maybe it's a little harder to justify it's existance unless it has some sort of tactical implication like it's battlegrounds. Though in terms of a roleplaying game, having a sort of corpse that you must get back to is a depth on one level, but when you the whole meat of the game is repeated xping, and death then maybe it's very questionable it's there. In fact, as I'll repeat on every death penalty thread- the best sort of death penalty if there is one is one where you lose bonuses from being alive. Imagine being able to heal that extra bit quicker, or execute that extra crit just for not dieing- then dieing you simply would lose that. That wouldn't be a death penalty so much but an incentive not to die.
Incidentally the worst death penalty I ever saw was in AC2 when each time you died you had an xp debt to pay called vitae or whatever. And I remember that got stupidly long with the effect it just wasn't worth playing the character anymore.
The penalty doesn't create the challenge, the penalty is by which you measure your successes. Without having ever seen darkness, by what do you measure light? Sorry for the analogy lol, but I think it fits. If I overcome a challenge, but there was no risk involved, I would view that victory with indifference. Where no penalty is applied, you can simply keep losing over and over again until you finally win, but that would not be much of a victory in my mind. This is totally stupid. You measure you success by how tough the challenge is, not by how much meaningless penalty after a failure. Just take boss fight ... even if you lose nothing but only your time, don't you think people feel better beating hard mode then normal mode. In fact, that is how FPS are designed because no matter how hard it is, they do NOT add unnecessarily penalty after you die. And don't tell me PvP FPS has no challenge. Ditto for challenge in other areas, even work. There is no penalty if you try and fail to solve the P=NP (one of those million dollar math problem) except your time. However, whoever solves it gets a Field's medal. Now tell me it is not worthwhile to do just because no one asked you to sit in a box for 1 month if you fail. The last line "you can simply keep losing over and over again until you finally win" is totally stupid. No one can win a hard mode boss fight by simply lose again and again. You need to learn to play the fight. Less than 2% players ever beat Sunwell. Tell me people can just win by trying and trying .. LOL.
Well, less than 2% of players ever beat Sunwell, right? But how many players have tried to beat Sunwell, again and again and again, without beating it? I'm pretty sure those 2% didn't all do it in one go, they probably did it like, 6 times, and then finally finished it on the 7th or some crap. Like, if death was some sort of ominous thing, like it probably should be, you know, since it's death, then people would be more wary about going into the dungeon. People leaving raids wouldn't happen because, hey, people would be thinking "man, I have to go to work soon, and I don't want that penalty of death for leaving, I'd better just not do this raid then" Disconnects would still suck, but that's a problem with someone's internet or computer, it's not the game's fault. Games like WoW are trying to keep many millions of players happy - people don't like death, so hey, let's make them eventually enjoy dying now and then. Wheee, look how fast my little legs go when I'm dead! Etc.
But the lack of massive death penalty is what allows stuff like Sunwell to be hard. People at that level are pretty much playing at 100% so risk wouldn't make them any better. The best guilds brought their A games, knew the strategy exactly and still wiped HUNDREDS of times on M'uru. Nobody would ever do sunwell-difficulty stuff if if there was some kind of massive penalty for wiping. Hard raid bosses are based around "learn by wiping". There is no magical way of making everyone godlike so they can one-shot sunwell on their first visit there.
Comments
You would equate it to learning from your mistakes. If there is no penalty involved, how could it be classified as a mistake?
You don't use safety goggles when using power tools, you get something in your eye, yhou go to the hospital to get it fixed, and you feel pain, so you put on the safety goggles next time.
The xp loss is the going to the hospital part and hte pain. They can't make you feel real pain in an MMORPG unles they hook you up to electrodes while you play the game, but they can make you feel the pain of losing xp.
The OP is describing what a chunk of gamers want. That is simply, game immersion. However putting forward death penalty as the main way of doing this is a fallacy. When you look at most games, MMORPGS, you have a role playing game at its base. You are playing pretend, not unlike as children when you played Cops & Robbers, however you have see rules you must obey. They are the next logical step from single player games which were a logical step from the old Pen and Paper days.
Now to really look at what I feel is wrong here you have to go all the way back to the beginning. Of the old PnP games the great grand sire of them all would be D&D. Gary Gygax gave the world quite a gift when he came up with that great little past time of rolling dice and escaping to another world for hours on end. There was a basic rule set that was fairly equal and then there were a ton of alternate rules so that you could tailor your game the way you liked to play.
Currently the developers are missing a golden opportunity to make a LOT of money by not following the same idea. That being creating a world with a basic rule set that can be used for multiple genres and then creating alternate rule sets to cover every kind of player out there. Go beyond the PvP server, Non PvP server, and role playing server. Instead have a server of permadeath, a server where you are responsible for every action you take through a strict reputation system, a never die system, etc, etc, etc.
In relation to players like the OP if you get more of a rush out of the game that would give you the ability to play the same game as someone who hates that idea. And the possibilities are endless on how many different customers that a developer could get using a lot of the same core content. Kind of surprising really that no one has done that.
It's too bad there is no permadeath MMO out there with which we could weigh these discussions, not even a permadeath server. I think MMO companies are more afraid of CS issues that would arise as a result of things like losing your character to lag etc. But in D2 many people lost their high level characters to lag all the time, It happened to me more than once, and there was no one to petition there, you just focused on how your going to spec differently and hear the "Evil Beware" once again =D
I don't see why no one has even made a HC MMO server yet. They could have made it like Sullon Zek, no rules, no petitions, no GM (unless your a fansy), then they'd have nothing to worry about. Why not?
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."
Except that'll lose you players. If a player is required to just sit there and stare at the screen without doing anything, they'll say the hell with it and stop playing the game. That's a loss of revenue for the company. If you're going to use time as a penalty, it has to be time actively spent doing something interesting enough to keep the player engaged, otherwise... bad idea.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
there is death penalties in MMOs?
Wow, I thought things just got grey and gloomy.
My favorite is, I can run across water, but cannot climb a mountain....
@ Ihmotepp
You would equate it to learning from your mistakes. If there is no penalty involved, how could it be classified as a mistake?
You don't use safety goggles when using power tools, you get something in your eye, yhou go to the hospital to get it fixed, and you feel pain, so you put on the safety goggles next time.
The xp loss is the going to the hospital part and hte pain. They can't make you feel real pain in an MMORPG unles they hook you up to electrodes while you play the game, but they can make you feel the pain of losing xp.
PO-TA-TOE, PO-TAH-TOE. I understand the purpose and the reasoning, as previously stated, but the word 'experience' doesn't fit with 'a loss of'. I understand fully the point you're trying to make with the metaphor, but 'experience' is not lost even in a real-world situation. You've grown from your mistake, as you've clearly stated yourself.
The 'pain' you describe is the means to an end- the slap on the wrist for dying. Dying not being a goal, and thus a no-no. But from a linguist, or roleplaying, point of view, to lose 'experience' is something that just doesn't really happen. Unless perhaps we link 'experience' to losing knowledge after warping from the death plane to the living? Or some other abstract manner of tying loss of memory to reincarnation inside of a game world?
Again, I understand the purpose, the why, but the word used in this manner... I don't know. I just irks me a bit. But I digress! This thread is full of win and most posts are insightful and interesting.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
Apologies for a double-post.
@ heremypet
The only thing working against perma-death in MMOs is, well, population. If we're dealing with a leveling model, and perma-death is involved, that's a lot of regrinding involved. Give me 4-5 deaths while I was AFK or otherwise involved doing something else, and that's frustration that I didn't deserve. Knowing this, I wouldn't see myself sustaining playtime in the game. If we're dealing with an open model, I still have regrinding to be done via gear and abilities, and the same senario rolls out.
Take a paper game like DD and perma-death is a reasonable choice in gaming. The only caveat at play here is that there is a DM who, if he's doing his job, won't allow 'stupid deaths' to occur. In an MMO, that sort of detailed involvement would be nigh impossible to impliment.
Maybe like playing a basketball game of 21? Go over the cap and revert back to 13. Applied to a game: die ingame, revert back to a save point 10 levels earlier?
Thinking out loud: one really, really kick MMO that perma-death would actually play an integral part of would be... a Highlander MMO. I think I'm just going to marinate over that thought a bit, discuss it with coworkers.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
Exactly. There are all kinds of ways that you can die that are not your fault. What happens if your net connection lags? What happens if your computer blue-screens? What happens if the MMO's server crashes? I've gotten killed because of all of these things before, I don't want to lose anything significant because of things that are entirely beyond my control. Dying is no fun, losing things because of a stupid, pointless death is even worse.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Exactly. There are all kinds of ways that you can die that are not your fault. What happens if your net connection lags? What happens if your computer blue-screens? What happens if the MMO's server crashes? I've gotten killed because of all of these things before, I don't want to lose anything significant because of things that are entirely beyond my control. Dying is no fun, losing things because of a stupid, pointless death is even worse.
You're right, but people are still willing to risk all of that if it means the excitement they're looking for. I played D2 HC for years, died to TPPKers, lag, power outages, and just bad luck, but even though you had to start all the way over, the thrill of making it through a dungeon knowing full well that every move could be your last is worth all that. D2 was released in 2000 and it's still sitting right there in store shelves today, and has probably sold more copies than many MMOs have. There are still a lot of people playing hardcore mode, but the thing about D2 is, the client is unsafe, people hack and Blizz can't stop it. Dying to TPPKers suck after so many times, that is one reason I would be interested in a permadeath MMO or server, because typically MMO clients are much safer from hacks than peer to peer or hosted multiplayer clients.
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."
Good for you, I'm sure not willing to do that. In fact, if an MMO's server issues, server lag or whatever caused me to lose a character, gear, loot, etc. I'd be on the phone to customer service demanding it all be restored so fast it would make your head spin. Most people would. It's one thing to die if you do something stupid. It's another thing to die because of something entirely beyond your control.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
In the single player games that came between PnP and MMOs there were a few different types.
In this post I am only going to address the types of character saves they allowed.
There were checkpoint saves where you reached a certain point in the game and could save. Most people did, unless they were an idiot, but people complained because they were too stupid to save it should be automatic.
Then there were checkpoints that once you passed them you auto saved however players complained there were not enough of them.
Then there were auto save points and additional save points where players could save if they wished. Again you would be an idiot not too however this still angered people because they wanted to be able to save whenever they wanted.
So most of the single player games let you save almost anywhere or anywhere. Then people just started pulling up cheat codes and walk thru's to make it through easier.
The point is there are always going to be people who are focused more on winning/achieving than playing the game. They are so hooked on catching the carrot on the stick that they forget the whole purpose of being there is to have fun.
MMOs have just become a contest of how to give the most wow for the longest period of time. The carrot gets split in to parts and you keep collecting bigger and bigger parts as you progress. Never is anyone talking about the storyline of an MMO, they are always talking about levels and gear. Granted in the old PnP days gear was sweet to get however you talked about the ADVENTURE you had getting the gear.
One of the most memorable adventures I had involved my ENTIRE party dying. I was the last one up and could have run and come back and saved the group. That would have been the smart thing to do. However I was running a cleric of war and he didn't run. Ever. So I did a final stand and blew the top off the mountain and stopped an invading horde before they could reach the city. Broke a staff of power to do it. It was a great storyline leading up to that point and to this day my friends and I still talk about what a great game it was. And we all died.
I don't think it is about death or no death. I think it is more about people having fun. For most people the thought of losing items, exp or time is not fun. However, that is more a reflection of poorly designed games rather than a true reflection of how mechanics should work.
First... I agree with much of the OP's sentiments.
In every MMO I've played that hasn't had any death penalty above a corpse run or minor gear damage, I've seen a greater amount of careless and reckless players who will run haphazardly into any situation, even one they know will cause the death of them and/or their party's characters. They don't care... Why should they? The cemetery's just around the corner and the loss of gear durability is negligible. To use a phrase out of context, because it describes the situation well, they often "fail their way to success". Even if you die 10 times in the process, if you keep throwing yourself at that mob, or keep trying to run haphazardly through that area, eventually you'll get it.
People use death in many new MMOs as a convenient way to travel. My brother was bragging about how he explored a lot of Azeroth by hopping around between cemeteries and it hardly cost him anything in repairs relative to the amount of money he could make.
I mean, seriously... there's something wrong with that picture. Death should be the consequence of failure that players actively try to avoid... not a convenient mode of transportation.
On the other hand, every MMO I've played where death has a definite bite... be it significant XP loss, possible loss of a level (if you lose enough xp), loss of gear, etc... players are, by and large, much more strategic, much more thoughtful and not even *remotely* as reckless as they are in those with less severe, or no death penalty at all.
In FFXI, Lineage 2 and other MMOs of that ilk where death has a bite that *means* something to your character, players have been, by far, more cautious and strategic. It's not because they're "better players" - it's because they know the penalty of failing, so they're not going to take pointless risks, they're going to choose their fights carefully, at all times - not only when they're fighting end-game raid bosses, etc.
In FFXI there are many times when you'll get a quest or otherwise need to go through a very dangerous area. Knowing how different mobs aggro (sight? sound? magic? scent?) and what type of preparations you need to make to get through as safely as possible actually *matters*. And it's always a cool feeling when you do so successfully. I'm playing FFXI since it came out in the US 7+ years ago, and safely making it through Ifrit's Cauldron or Den of Rancor or other similarly dangerous areas *still* feels like an accomplishment, like a mini victory, because one screw up in any of those places could very well mean death... even at level cap. Defeating a tough boss or surviving an encounter that seems doomed is all the sweeter because you *know* what penalties failing would carry.
So, at least to me, it's not a matter of "people who like games with harsh death penalties are better gamers"... Not at all. It's simply that to us, it's more *fun* to have that extra sense of danger, or to require that extra bit of strategy or caution... it makes the game more exciting and more enjoyable to play.
There are some who say "well, it's time wasted when you lose xp". I've always found that to be a funny argument in the context of playing a video game; "I'm wasting time... while wasting time". And, it's even more so in a MMO considering you're talking about maybe an hour or two to recover lost xp in a game that the average player will invest *hundreds* of hours into over the course of playing it.
Again, I can understand some people don't enjoy death penalties; I understand that perfectly well. That's their prerogative. However, I think it's at least useful to understand that those of us who prefer a harsher death penalty in a MMO - at least some of us - aren't "masochists who enjoy dying and wasting hours of our lives"... to the contrary, we enjoy the heightened sense of knowing what the penalties are for failure. We don't like dying either... we simply enjoy the fact that avoiding it is *that* much more meaningful (in gameplay terms) than it would be if dying carried no penalty beyond negligible gear damage. It's a time-old concept, especially in games, the greater the risk, the sweeter the reward.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
My thoughts
A PVE game with a significant death penalty where the player can balance risk by playing intelligently is reasonable for players who want more of a challenge.
A PVP game with a significant death penalty often does not allow a player to balance risk with intelligent play. In many games with a PVP focus a player through no fault of their own can lose significant progress to other players who's main goal is to grief or gank.
I personally like a fair playing field. If I am subject to harsh penalties then by playing intelligently and skillfully I should be able to mitigate those penalties. If I am unable to migate the risk I through intelligent or skillfull play I am out of there.
So a more significant death penalty in a PVE game could be enjoyable for some but I don't see it happing due to the overall trend in gaming.
I don't hate the trend. MMOs are in theory supposed to be a social setting for people to play together and have fun. If this trend allows more people to experience the MMO genre then cool.
Asheron's Call, Champions Online, Dark Age of Camelot, EVE Online, EverQuest, Lineage 2, Star Wars Galaxies and World of Warcraft.Waiting for SWTOR
Harsh death penalty isn't challenge. It's penalty. Penalty is what happens when you fail the challenge.
I want challenge. I don't want excessive penalty.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Harsh death penalty isn't challenge. It's penalty. Penalty is what happens when you fail the challenge.
I want challenge. I don't want excessive penalty.
The penalty doesn't create the challenge, the penalty is by which you measure your successes. Without having ever seen darkness, by what do you measure light?
Sorry for the analogy lol, but I think it fits. If I overcome a challenge, but there was no risk involved, I would view that victory with indifference. Where no penalty is applied, you can simply keep losing over and over again until you finally win, but that would not be much of a victory in my mind.
Suppose you saw a clown walking the highwire at a circus, with harnesses attached to him and a safety net underneath, then at the next ring the same act is happening with no harness or net, which clown would you be more interested in, and which would get more enjoyment from his accomplishments?
I'm not saying that enjoying a game without penalties is wrong or impossible, but I am saying that there are plenty of people who would rather have the penalties there, because of how they amplify success when overcoming the challenges.
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."
Why are there no death penalties in fps'?
Because you are in God mode.
The penalty doesn't create the challenge, the penalty is by which you measure your successes. Without having ever seen darkness, by what do you measure light?
Sorry for the analogy lol, but I think it fits. If I overcome a challenge, but there was no risk involved, I would view that victory with indifference. Where no penalty is applied, you can simply keep losing over and over again until you finally win, but that would not be much of a victory in my mind.
This is totally stupid. You measure you success by how tough the challenge is, not by how much meaningless penalty after a failure.
Just take boss fight ... even if you lose nothing but only your time, don't you think people feel better beating hard mode then normal mode. In fact, that is how FPS are designed because no matter how hard it is, they do NOT add unnecessarily penalty after you die. And don't tell me PvP FPS has no challenge.
Ditto for challenge in other areas, even work. There is no penalty if you try and fail to solve the P=NP (one of those million dollar math problem) except your time. However, whoever solves it gets a Field's medal. Now tell me it is not worthwhile to do just because no one asked you to sit in a box for 1 month if you fail.
The last line "you can simply keep losing over and over again until you finally win" is totally stupid. No one can win a hard mode boss fight by simply lose again and again. You need to learn to play the fight. Less than 2% players ever beat Sunwell. Tell me people can just win by trying and trying .. LOL.
Well, less than 2% of players ever beat Sunwell, right? But how many players have tried to beat Sunwell, again and again and again, without beating it? I'm pretty sure those 2% didn't all do it in one go, they probably did it like, 6 times, and then finally finished it on the 7th or some crap.
Like, if death was some sort of ominous thing, like it probably should be, you know, since it's death, then people would be more wary about going into the dungeon. People leaving raids wouldn't happen because, hey, people would be thinking "man, I have to go to work soon, and I don't want that penalty of death for leaving, I'd better just not do this raid then"
Disconnects would still suck, but that's a problem with someone's internet or computer, it's not the game's fault.
Games like WoW are trying to keep many millions of players happy - people don't like death, so hey, let's make them eventually enjoy dying now and then. Wheee, look how fast my little legs go when I'm dead! Etc.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
You all need to learn to spell.
I just don't see this argument at all. I understand risk is important for some players, but to say you can't have fun at all without risk is extremist, and you are very much in the minority with that sort of opinion.
One angle I could take is pointing out that you're playing a videogame, so there's no risk, so how could you ever have fun playing games?
Another angle I could take is that everything is a small risk -- dying in Halo and being sent back 10 seconds of gameplay just "cost" you 10 seconds of your time.
I'll take your clown example a few steps further:
Clown B is far more interesting to watch. The skill involved is many times greater, and the achievement would be many times more impressive.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well, less than 2% of players ever beat Sunwell, right? But how many players have tried to beat Sunwell, again and again and again, without beating it? I'm pretty sure those 2% didn't all do it in one go, they probably did it like, 6 times, and then finally finished it on the 7th or some crap.
Like, if death was some sort of ominous thing, like it probably should be, you know, since it's death, then people would be more wary about going into the dungeon. People leaving raids wouldn't happen because, hey, people would be thinking "man, I have to go to work soon, and I don't want that penalty of death for leaving, I'd better just not do this raid then"
Disconnects would still suck, but that's a problem with someone's internet or computer, it's not the game's fault.
Games like WoW are trying to keep many millions of players happy - people don't like death, so hey, let's make them eventually enjoy dying now and then. Wheee, look how fast my little legs go when I'm dead! Etc.
As games like Eve and such have demonstrated, if you make the death penalty harsh, a smaller fraction of your player base will even take part. Make it harsh enough, and players will not even bother with your game. Its not like the time of UO, when there wasn't much of a choice. These days there are literally hundreds of games to play. Your last demonstrates that you don't understand the basic reality that Blizzard obviously does... Or they wouldn't have almost 12 million players. That being that you play to your demographic. They have different modes for the various instances. If you want to try to face roll your way through one of the top tier boss fights on hard mode, I doubt you are going to be pleased at the result...
Corpse runs, experience loss, gear loss and all the rest of the barbaric relics of an earlier age of MMO development should stay buried in the past, where they so richly deserve to be. There are other paths to this "challenge" that some seek.
Then by your logic, jumping a distance of 12 feet on a sidewalk, and jumping 12 feet between rail cars on a moving train are the same. The challenge is identical. But tell me, would your preparations for these two feats also be the same? What about the spectators, would they react the same? Would you're pulse be the same while you're jumping? Would you take the same amount of pride in either situation? No, the only thing that is the same is the challenge, just about everything else is different.
I assume you play FPS where you respawn immediately after dying, what's the point? I would prefer CS style FPS where when you die you wait until the end of the match. You know it's funny how that style of FPS makes people play smarter, now why is that? Doesn't sound "totally stupid" to me.
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."
I just don't see this argument at all. I understand risk is important for some players, but to say you can't have fun at all without risk is extremist, and you are very much in the minority with that sort of opinion.
One angle I could take is pointing out that you're playing a videogame, so there's no risk, so how could you ever have fun playing games?
Another angle I could take is that everything is a small risk -- dying in Halo and being sent back 10 seconds of gameplay just "cost" you 10 seconds of your time.
I'll take your clown example a few steps further:
Clown B is far more interesting to watch. The skill involved is many times greater, and the achievement would be many times more impressive.
You can say I'm extremist, minority, etc all you want, but that is largely speculation.
Your second angle answers your first in part, sure It's not life and death, but the risk is still win or lose, but that isn't the argument. The argument is: what is a win for you isn't a win for me. If one player beats an equally matched opponent, only to see him respawn and finish his last little sliver of life off, that is not a win to me. Sure PvP in MMOs aren't fair, but that is partially why I like it, you can call that extremist if you wish, but killing a level 60 sorc at 40, or taking on 2 or 3 even cons, that's what it's about =P
You ignored my clown scenario, I'll look at your when you at least acknowledge it.
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."
oh yeah a poster above is right there is death penalties with fps' (1) where maybe you have to run back a fair distance to a fighting location or (2) where you must wait till a round is over or (3) where you must wait a certain amount of seconds especially in TF2 attack-defence maps.
In mmos maybe it's a little harder to justify it's existance unless it has some sort of tactical implication like it's battlegrounds. Though in terms of a roleplaying game, having a sort of corpse that you must get back to is a depth on one level, but when you the whole meat of the game is repeated xping, and death then maybe it's very questionable it's there. In fact, as I'll repeat on every death penalty thread- the best sort of death penalty if there is one is one where you lose bonuses from being alive. Imagine being able to heal that extra bit quicker, or execute that extra crit just for not dieing- then dieing you simply would lose that. That wouldn't be a death penalty so much but an incentive not to die.
Incidentally the worst death penalty I ever saw was in AC2 when each time you died you had an xp debt to pay called vitae or whatever. And I remember that got stupidly long with the effect it just wasn't worth playing the character anymore.
But the lack of massive death penalty is what allows stuff like Sunwell to be hard. People at that level are pretty much playing at 100% so risk wouldn't make them any better. The best guilds brought their A games, knew the strategy exactly and still wiped HUNDREDS of times on M'uru. Nobody would ever do sunwell-difficulty stuff if if there was some kind of massive penalty for wiping. Hard raid bosses are based around "learn by wiping". There is no magical way of making everyone godlike so they can one-shot sunwell on their first visit there.