Death penalty needs to be steep enough to detour people from exploting it as a warp method or zerging a boss untill they get lucky and win. I personally think FFXI had the best system You didnt want to die and not get a raise or you lost 2 hours of xp. If you got a raise III it wasnt bad at all.
Nah,eq1 you actually lose levels.
Funny how that served as a deterrent for playing like a moron. That is unlike other games, where any moron can make it to the top, even while acting like a moron. Why do people currently dislike grouping again?
Because of the morons of course...
Groups are an entirely different dynamic than solo play. In a group, you have to deal with other peoples distractions(Wife aggro can be a killer. ^^) time commitments and all of the rest. Groups are usually more trouble than they are worth these days. Add in death penalties, and they are REALLY not worth it.
Death penalty needs to be steep enough to detour people from exploting it as a warp method or zerging a boss untill they get lucky and win. I personally think FFXI had the best system You didnt want to die and not get a raise or you lost 2 hours of xp. If you got a raise III it wasnt bad at all.
Nah,eq1 you actually lose levels.
Funny how that served as a deterrent for playing like a moron. That is unlike other games, where any moron can make it to the top, even while acting like a moron. Why do people currently dislike grouping again?
Because of the morons of course...
Groups are an entirely different dynamic than solo play. In a group, you have to deal with other peoples distractions(Wife aggro can be a killer. ^^) time commitments and all of the rest. Groups are usually more trouble than they are worth these days. Add in death penalties, and they are REALLY not worth it.
Not trying to sound antagonistic here... I'm just curious...
"groups are more trouble than they're worth these days"... How are they any different "these days" than they've ever been? People had wives and 'distractions' 5, 7, 10 years ago as well. It never detracted from the grouping experience, *and* death was harsher.
That seems like an example of this strange, sort of restricted view that some people seem to have toward the genre... That is... things change for them in their lives, and so they assume that it's changing for everyone else as well and the industry is required to "keep up" with them.
An example I see a lot is something along the lines of, "I was younger and had more time then to play games. I'm married with a full time job and don't have as much time now, so it's important that developers change with the times by making the MMOs more solo-able and more accessible."
I don't think the people realize how egocentric that sounds, but it really comes across like "my priorities have changed, so I don't want games to be the way they were when I was younger, so I don't like slower leveling or a death penalty and any MMO that has either is bad".
The MMO genre still has new people coming to it - people who are the same age any one of us might have been when we first started playing. They have the time to play now just like we did back then.... why do they suddenly not count? Because *we've* "grown up"? That's ridiculous and amazingly "me-sighted".
Also, what of the people who don't have a lot of time to play, but still prefer a slower-moving game with a harsher death penalty? You know, not everyone feels like they need to level every night (as an example) to enjoy themselves. Not everyone feels like they're "being forced to group" if some quests or encounters aren't soloable... Some of us actually *enjoy* that and feel that the trend of MMOs being made more and more soloable is killing that. But, I know... the "solo everything except end game raids" people don't care about that.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Death penalty needs to be steep enough to detour people from exploting it as a warp method or zerging a boss untill they get lucky and win. I personally think FFXI had the best system You didnt want to die and not get a raise or you lost 2 hours of xp. If you got a raise III it wasnt bad at all.
WoW manages to fullfill these conditions and has a much lower death penalty than FFXI.
Ahhh.... not even close.
I've played FFXI since it launched in the US. I've played WoW, though not as much, since it launched in the US. I've witnessed and experienced *far* more reckless and sloppy behavior in less time playing WoW than I ever did in 6+ years playing FFXI.
Lineage 2 and FFXI are a better comparison in that regard. Because the death penalty in each game has a definite 'bite' to it, people are considerably more strategic and cautious in how they approach situations, and aren't nearly as tolerant of screw-ups - at any level - as they are in WoW.
Hmm .. can you READ? He said wow can "detour people from exploting it as a warp method or zerging a boss untill they get lucky and win" ..
Whatever you said is IRREVELANT to whether WOW can deter those two behavior (which it can).
Let me toss in just this one idea: in a MMO there is one and only one way to penalize a player: time. You take something away and it takes time to regain it, so you must be fully aware every single penality is a timesink and nothing else. You may defend that or not, but we must not have illusions about it. Personally, I never felt a penality makes a game better for me. I fight as best as I can and never needed a penality to do my best, but apparently some need the fear of the whip to make an effort. *shrug*
I agree and i've always said the death penalty (xp penalty) only discourages pushing your limits. Do I want to take 3 mobs or 4? Better not ...Ill take 2 so I dont risk losing xp.
Death penalty needs to be steep enough to detour people from exploting it as a warp method or zerging a boss untill they get lucky and win. I personally think FFXI had the best system You didnt want to die and not get a raise or you lost 2 hours of xp. If you got a raise III it wasnt bad at all.
WoW manages to fullfill these conditions and has a much lower death penalty than FFXI.
Ahhh.... not even close.
I've played FFXI since it launched in the US. I've played WoW, though not as much, since it launched in the US. I've witnessed and experienced *far* more reckless and sloppy behavior in less time playing WoW than I ever did in 6+ years playing FFXI.
Lineage 2 and FFXI are a better comparison in that regard. Because the death penalty in each game has a definite 'bite' to it, people are considerably more strategic and cautious in how they approach situations, and aren't nearly as tolerant of screw-ups - at any level - as they are in WoW.
Hmm .. can you READ? He said wow can "detour people from exploting it as a warp method or zerging a boss untill they get lucky and win" ..
Whatever you said is IRREVELANT to whether WOW can deter those two behavior (which it can).
Yes, I can read just fine... Can you respond without hurling personal INSULTS?
See? I can type in all caps too. Does that mean I'm cool like you? That would *so* make my life complete.
I still disagree with his assessment, and yours. I've *seen* people use death as a means of convenient transportation in WoW, time and again. My brother bragged about "cemetery hopping" to explore Azeroth. I've seen people throw themselves time and again at difficult battles - bosses and normal encounters alike - basically "zerging" 'til they got the win when simply using their heads and a little bit of strategy (I know... where's the fun in that?) would have made it a lot smoother, and a lot more satisfying, with far lower repair bills.
You will *not* see that kind of FFXI even *remotely* as much as you do in WoW. People who recklessly run into battle with a boss and die are going to find themselves lacking invites. People who use death as a convenient way of transportation are going to find themselves not leveling very much.
My point stands. Death is *not* a serious enough deterrent in WoW to stop people doing those things.... at least not for a substantial number of people.
Thanks for playing, though.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Death penalty needs to be steep enough to detour people from exploting it as a warp method or zerging a boss untill they get lucky and win. I personally think FFXI had the best system You didnt want to die and not get a raise or you lost 2 hours of xp. If you got a raise III it wasnt bad at all.
WoW manages to fullfill these conditions and has a much lower death penalty than FFXI.
Ahhh.... not even close.
I've played FFXI since it launched in the US. I've played WoW, though not as much, since it launched in the US. I've witnessed and experienced *far* more reckless and sloppy behavior in less time playing WoW than I ever did in 6+ years playing FFXI.
Lineage 2 and FFXI are a better comparison in that regard. Because the death penalty in each game has a definite 'bite' to it, people are considerably more strategic and cautious in how they approach situations, and aren't nearly as tolerant of screw-ups - at any level - as they are in WoW.
Hmm .. can you READ? He said wow can "detour people from exploting it as a warp method or zerging a boss untill they get lucky and win" ..
Whatever you said is IRREVELANT to whether WOW can deter those two behavior (which it can).
Yes, I can read just fine... Can you respond without hurling personal INSULTS?
See? I can type in all caps too. Does that mean I'm cool like you? That would *so* make my life complete.
I still disagree with his assessment, and yours. I've *seen* people use death as a means of convenient transportation in WoW, time and again. My brother bragged about "cemetery hopping" to explore Azeroth. I've seen people throw themselves time and again at difficult battles - bosses and normal encounters alike - basically "zerging" 'til they got the win when simply using their heads and a little bit of strategy (I know... where's the fun in that?) would have made it a lot smoother, and a lot more satisfying, with far lower repair bills.
You will *not* see that kind of FFXI even *remotely* as much as you do in WoW. People who recklessly run into battle with a boss and die are going to find themselves lacking invites. People who use death as a convenient way of transportation are going to find themselves not leveling very much.
My point stands. Death is *not* a serious enough deterrent in WoW to stop people doing those things.... at least not for a substantial number of people.
Thanks for playing, though.
No, you will not see that type of behavior in FFXI...Neither will FFXI ever have even *remotely* as many subscriptions as WoW has. I suspect there is a connection here... Simple fact of the matter is I will NOT play games with corpse runs, gear/level loss. Its simply not worth my time and money. That also seems to be the market trend. Those who want death penalties should stick to games that have them.
Death penalty needs to be steep enough to detour people from exploting it as a warp method or zerging a boss untill they get lucky and win. I personally think FFXI had the best system You didnt want to die and not get a raise or you lost 2 hours of xp. If you got a raise III it wasnt bad at all.
Nah,eq1 you actually lose levels.
Funny how that served as a deterrent for playing like a moron. That is unlike other games, where any moron can make it to the top, even while acting like a moron. Why do people currently dislike grouping again?
Because of the morons of course...
Groups are an entirely different dynamic than solo play. In a group, you have to deal with other peoples distractions(Wife aggro can be a killer. ^^) time commitments and all of the rest. Groups are usually more trouble than they are worth these days. Add in death penalties, and they are REALLY not worth it.
You want to know the biggest sercret to why groups these days are more trouble than their worth? Because these days games are more focused on solo play. Only incentive to group is self greed. If a game focuses on group play those days go out the window.
But lets not de-rail the death penalty thread. Even though both topics have been beat to death in the past. No one is going to change anyone elses mind.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
I've never quite understood xp loss at death. Taking 'experience' literally, wouldn't going through actions that result in death grant me more experience? I attempted something, and failed via the means or manner in which I attempted it. Clearly, I am now more knowledgeable, more experienced, than before. I understand the set-back and why it's implimented, but the concept of 'experience' from a linguist point of view swims upstream from this xp-loss trend and its reasons for implimentation. Probably just an irk with wording and usage.
You would equate it to learning from your mistakes. If there is no penalty involved, how could it be classified as a mistake?
You don't use safety goggles when using power tools, you get something in your eye, yhou go to the hospital to get it fixed, and you feel pain, so you put on the safety goggles next time.
The xp loss is the going to the hospital part and hte pain. They can't make you feel real pain in an MMORPG unles they hook you up to electrodes while you play the game, but they can make you feel the pain of losing xp.
Is there a need to levy an external penalty in order to learn from a mistake. So we need to equip the teacher with a cane during a test. Beat up the stupid student who do the math wrong?
Do I need a club on my head when I missed the tennis? Do I need an electronic shock when I make a wrong move during the lunch time chess game? Do I need a kick in the ass when I lose in the evening card games next to the family grill?
Your examples about injuries at work are natural consequences of mistakes in RL, pain we work hard to PREVENT. You suggestion to deliberately introduce electronic versions of such pain, is ridiculous. Do we need to introduce every RL thing in our game? Do we need to introduce the worse in RL into our games?
See? I can type in all caps too. Does that mean I'm cool like you? That would *so* make my life complete. I still disagree with his assessment, and yours. I've *seen* people use death as a means of convenient transportation in WoW, time and again. My brother bragged about "cemetery hopping" to explore Azeroth. I've seen people throw themselves time and again at difficult battles - bosses and normal encounters alike - basically "zerging" 'til they got the win when simply using their heads and a little bit of strategy (I know... where's the fun in that?) would have made it a lot smoother, and a lot more satisfying, with far lower repair bills.
Have you actually played the game? Which L80 boss you can zerg and win? You can't even get back in the fight after you are dead .. because the instance is not open to you when an encounter is in progress. You have to wipe the whole party and go in and start the fight from the start again.
Don't make things up. And this is not an "assessment". It is a gameplay mechanics. Zerging is not possible in almost all dungeon/raid encounters. Period.
See? I can type in all caps too. Does that mean I'm cool like you? That would *so* make my life complete. I still disagree with his assessment, and yours. I've *seen* people use death as a means of convenient transportation in WoW, time and again. My brother bragged about "cemetery hopping" to explore Azeroth. I've seen people throw themselves time and again at difficult battles - bosses and normal encounters alike - basically "zerging" 'til they got the win when simply using their heads and a little bit of strategy (I know... where's the fun in that?) would have made it a lot smoother, and a lot more satisfying, with far lower repair bills.
Have you actually played the game? Which L80 boss you can zerg and win? You can't even get back in the fight after you are dead .. because the instance is not open to you when an encounter is in progress. You have to wipe the whole party and go in and start the fight from the start again.
Don't make things up. And this is not an "assessment". It is a gameplay mechanics. Zerging is not possible in almost all dungeon/raid encounters. Period.
What version of WoW does he play? Maybe he should try playing the game before he discusses it. I have never been able to Zerg anything in WoW outside of PvP battle grounds. Cemetary hopping is a myth. You have to either run back to your body or take resurrection sickness for 10 minutes (75% lower stats) and lose 25% durability of your armour (which really sucks). I don't comment on how lame the perma death in DF is because I'VE NEVER PLAYED IT! Learn to do the same. Thank you nariusseldon for catching this :P
See? I can type in all caps too. Does that mean I'm cool like you? That would *so* make my life complete. I still disagree with his assessment, and yours. I've *seen* people use death as a means of convenient transportation in WoW, time and again. My brother bragged about "cemetery hopping" to explore Azeroth. I've seen people throw themselves time and again at difficult battles - bosses and normal encounters alike - basically "zerging" 'til they got the win when simply using their heads and a little bit of strategy (I know... where's the fun in that?) would have made it a lot smoother, and a lot more satisfying, with far lower repair bills.
Have you actually played the game? Which L80 boss you can zerg and win? You can't even get back in the fight after you are dead .. because the instance is not open to you when an encounter is in progress. You have to wipe the whole party and go in and start the fight from the start again.
Don't make things up. And this is not an "assessment". It is a gameplay mechanics. Zerging is not possible in almost all dungeon/raid encounters. Period.
What version of WoW does he play? Maybe he should try playing the game before he discusses it. I have never been able to Zerg anything in WoW outside of PvP battle grounds. Cemetary hopping is a myth. You have to either run back to your body or take resurrection sickness for 10 minutes (75% lower stats) and lose 25% durability of your armour (which really sucks). I don't comment on how lame the perma death in DF is because I'VE NEVER PLAYED IT! Learn to do the same. Thank you nariusseldon for catching this :P
Actually the 5man instance in the Argent Tournament allows you to run back in an rejoin the fight when you die. This only works in the 5man and I was actually suprised that it did not lock the instance like it does in every other case. On the other hand the fights in there are just not that hard where that ever becomes a viable strategy.
As far as graveyard hopping to explore that is really only a gimmick now if you want to explore the world on a low level character. It is a slow way to travel especially since Blizzard added all those extra graveyards which mean that you will no longer be transported all the way to the other end of the zone. Any possible time savings are miniscule compared to the durability hit and the long res sickness duration.
See? I can type in all caps too. Does that mean I'm cool like you? That would *so* make my life complete. I still disagree with his assessment, and yours. I've *seen* people use death as a means of convenient transportation in WoW, time and again. My brother bragged about "cemetery hopping" to explore Azeroth. I've seen people throw themselves time and again at difficult battles - bosses and normal encounters alike - basically "zerging" 'til they got the win when simply using their heads and a little bit of strategy (I know... where's the fun in that?) would have made it a lot smoother, and a lot more satisfying, with far lower repair bills.
Have you actually played the game? Which L80 boss you can zerg and win? You can't even get back in the fight after you are dead .. because the instance is not open to you when an encounter is in progress. You have to wipe the whole party and go in and start the fight from the start again.
Don't make things up. And this is not an "assessment". It is a gameplay mechanics. Zerging is not possible in almost all dungeon/raid encounters. Period.
What version of WoW does he play? Maybe he should try playing the game before he discusses it. I have never been able to Zerg anything in WoW outside of PvP battle grounds. Cemetary hopping is a myth. You have to either run back to your body or take resurrection sickness for 10 minutes (75% lower stats) and lose 25% durability of your armour (which really sucks). I don't comment on how lame the perma death in DF is because I'VE NEVER PLAYED IT! Learn to do the same. Thank you nariusseldon for catching this :P
Actually the 5man instance in the Argent Tournament allows you to run back in an rejoin the fight when you die. This only works in the 5man and I was actually suprised that it did not lock the instance like it does in every other case. On the other hand the fights in there are just not that hard where that ever becomes a viable strategy.
As far as graveyard hopping to explore that is really only a gimmick now if you want to explore the world on a low level character. It is a slow way to travel especially since Blizzard added all those extra graveyards which mean that you will no longer be transported all the way to the other end of the zone. Any possible time savings are miniscule compared to the durability hit and the long res sickness duration.
okay, I did notice that with the Argent Tournament 5 man, but that is the exception, not the rule and I can't think of any boss where zerging would be a viable option in the first place. I was more pointing out that commenting based on heresay is well, to be polite about it, ill-informed.
Let me toss in just this one idea: in a MMO there is one and only one way to penalize a player: time. You take something away and it takes time to regain it, so you must be fully aware every single penality is a timesink and nothing else. You may defend that or not, but we must not have illusions about it. Personally, I never felt a penality makes a game better for me. I fight as best as I can and never needed a penality to do my best, but apparently some need the fear of the whip to make an effort. *shrug*
When you look at it that way yes your argument makes perfect sense, but in reality a harsher penalty affects many things within the MMO, when you have no penalties ppl dont care about their losses, they dont care if they are acting as idiots, they dont care if they are gonna be invited to the same group because no matter what bunch of idiots you go with you will do it until its done no matter what, you get ppl falling asleep, people watching TV while they play, ppl randomly leaving "sorry my mom called", ppl who pretend they are in game when in fact they are AFK "ohh shit I caused a wipe *giggles* better not tell anyone".
When you have penalties your character looses something, when you go to a group to do something you are aware that there is something to loose but also ALOT to gain if you focus and that is usually the case, if you fuck up you also lost something in L2 for instance maybe now your gonna leave with less XP than you started with and that will teach you to pay more attention next time, if you stand AFK and cause a wipe and a massive loss for the entire group you are certain they will just kick you out and not invite you again, now you see the difference between the no penalty and the penalty mode is that with a penalty, only groups with active people will be doing whatever boss or dungeon you are trying to do , you cant just "go with any group next time" because you will probably loose more than you will win, within those games your reputation is usually very important and causes the majority of ppl to want to keep their intact, this can be easily verified in games like WoW I remember a few months back doing a PUG of Naxx you finished and got some loot but you always wipe 7 or 8 times more than if you go with your guild for instance, the point being the headbashers will go there 100 times and wipe 20 times per run but still do it and if you fuck up in a group that never wipes because you were watching that awesome TV commercial who cares just go with a group that wipes 10 times doesnt matter.
Games without penalties usually create a more "head bashing" community where ppl dont really care about what they do and how they affect others which defeats the general point of MMO. MMOs have turned into Co-op single player games, anything outside instances are just glorified chat rooms where you wait for the next match up to go on your co-op adventure, if you die..ohhh well doesnt matter just go back to the chat and get another partner.
Let me toss in just this one idea: in a MMO there is one and only one way to penalize a player: time. You take something away and it takes time to regain it, so you must be fully aware every single penality is a timesink and nothing else. You may defend that or not, but we must not have illusions about it. Personally, I never felt a penality makes a game better for me. I fight as best as I can and never needed a penality to do my best, but apparently some need the fear of the whip to make an effort. *shrug*
When you look at it that way yes your argument makes perfect sense, but in reality a harsher penalty affects many things within the MMO, when you have no penalties ppl dont care about their losses, they dont care if they are acting as idiots, they dont care if they are gonna be invited to the same group because no matter what bunch of idiots you go with you will do it until its done no matter what, you get ppl falling asleep, people watching TV while they play, ppl randomly leaving "sorry my mom called", ppl who pretend they are in game when in fact they are AFK "ohh shit I caused a wipe *giggles* better not tell anyone".
When you have penalties your character looses something, when you go to a group to do something you are aware that there is something to loose but also ALOT to gain if you focus and that is usually the case, if you fuck up you also lost something in L2 for instance maybe now your gonna leave with less XP than you started with and that will teach you to pay more attention next time, if you stand AFK and cause a wipe and a massive loss for the entire group you are certain they will just kick you out and not invite you again, now you see the difference between the no penalty and the penalty mode is that with a penalty, only groups with active people will be doing whatever boss or dungeon you are trying to do , you cant just "go with any group next time" because you will probably loose more than you will win, within those games your reputation is usually very important and causes the majority of ppl to want to keep their intact, this can be easily verified in games like WoW I remember a few months back doing a PUG of Naxx you finished and got some loot but you always wipe 7 or 8 times more than if you go with your guild for instance, the point being the headbashers will go there 100 times and wipe 20 times per run but still do it and if you fuck up in a group that never wipes because you were watching that awesome TV commercial who cares just go with a group that wipes 10 times doesnt matter.
Games without penalties usually create a more "head bashing" community where ppl dont really care about what they do and how they affect others which defeats the general point of MMO. MMOs have turned into Co-op single player games, anything outside instances are just glorified chat rooms where you wait for the next match up to go on your co-op adventure, if you die..ohhh well doesnt matter just go back to the chat and get another partner.
I agree to some extent, but therein lies the need for guilds and raid leaders. If I have people not doing their job, or not paying attention, or watching tv, or going afk without notice, they get kicked and often added to my ignore list. On my server in WoW (Malfurion Horde) you learn who the idiots are at high levels and you know who to not bring to raids pretty quick. The idiots, the douche bags, and the ninjas get weeded out pretty quick.
I come from tibia, which is one of the games with the highest death penalty ever, before a patch if you died with no promotion, unblessed and not wearing an amulet of loss you lost:
-10% of your total experience
-Your backpack and any other containers you had equipped
-10% of ALL your skills
-Each item equipped had a 10% chance to be dropped upon death, there are boots, legs, armor, helmet, right and left arms, ring and amulet, that's a 8 item total, so .9^8 = 43% chance to escape with your other items intact, so more than half the times you died unprotected you lost at least one item in adittion to your backpack
Needless to say, dying at higher levels was a pain, you were able to purchase blessings for 10k gold each and there are 5 total blessings for a grand total of 50k, each blessing reduced death penalty by 1%, plus another 50k gold for an amulet of loss which prevented any items dropping upon death, but blessings and amulet dissapeared after being used, promotion on your vocation also reduced death penalty by a permanent 2%, you have a pretty decent incentive not to die, so it was fine, however...
-The tech crew at CIPsoft are unable to mantain stable service, which results in constant lag/kicks/freezes
-They are also unable to deal with Ddos attacks, which causes masskicks where lots of players die
-Sometimes the client crashes unexpectedly, which results in deaths
However, the most important point is as follows, when you die unprotected you drop items, either if you were killed by a player or a creature, as a result abusive players commonly know as pks often kill others for the items they drop, they use cowardly tactics such as ganging up on teams of 5+ against a single player, killing players WAY below their level (lvl 145 vs lvl 45 for instance) or attacking players who are on a major disadvantage such as fighting multiple creatures and thus unable to defend themselves appropiately, now you might say PvP is a factor on games like that, and you would be right, but that brings up another great point, botters
Botters are people who are simply too stupid to play the game, and thus they depend on a script to play it for them, in tibia there's a particular indiference from the managers to effectively punish botters, as a result, the botting comunity has grown strong and unmatched, how can you rival someone with a lvl 100 char leveled by hand when they have a main lvl 187 and several alts lvl 80+ they have never put effort into? if you manage to kill them it means they lost a few hours of electric power and internet connection, however if you die you lose days, maybe weeks of hard work, hunting and questing
As a direct result, death penalty was too harsh for those who played manually, so it had to be lowered, which is fine since most deaths at higher levels are not even the players' fault, but they die by lousy game development or service, still the abussive players cause a lot of death, which can be frustrating enough for someone to quit, what's the point on hunting for 2 hours if an abusive player with twice your level will kill you and recieve all your hard earned loot?
While i do agree no death penalty is somewhat lame, a too harsh death penalty is just as bad, a game with no difficulty is just as boring as a game with an insane difficulty, i remember i played doom 3 for PC and i loved it, after i finished hard mode the option "nightmare" unlocked, and i eagerly choose to re-play the game with a higher difficulty, what was the difficulty added? you lost hp EVERY SINGLE SECOND until it dropped to 10, and after that even a fart of a monster would kill you, needless to say it was stupidly hard and not funny, i would agree with better AI for monsters, more hp, less ammo, but hp loss every single second? that's simply annoying, not challenging
I agree new MMOs require harsher death penalty, however, IF AND ONLY IF the power abuse issue is under control, how is that fixed? rule enforcing and bot elimination, why do botters abuse their power? because they don't care if they die since the bot can earn back what they lost in a matter of hours, and since they never played the char they never lost anything really, also a compensation policy in case of death by game failure should be enforced in order for a harsher death penalty to work, why should you pay for the company's mistakes? if the server went down or the client crashed it's not your fault, you should not pa for that
Haikus are easy But they don't always make sense Refrigerator
Actually the 5man instance in the Argent Tournament allows you to run back in an rejoin the fight when you die. This only works in the 5man and I was actually suprised that it did not lock the instance like it does in every other case. On the other hand the fights in there are just not that hard where that ever becomes a viable strategy. As far as graveyard hopping to explore that is really only a gimmick now if you want to explore the world on a low level character. It is a slow way to travel especially since Blizzard added all those extra graveyards which mean that you will no longer be transported all the way to the other end of the zone. Any possible time savings are miniscule compared to the durability hit and the long res sickness duration.
okay, I did notice that with the Argent Tournament 5 man, but that is the exception, not the rule and I can't think of any boss where zerging would be a viable option in the first place. I was more pointing out that commenting based on heresay is well, to be polite about it, ill-informed.
TOC 5 man is the only one. Plus, it will reset if everyone dies and no one can survive more than 2-3 sec if the tank dies. So zerging is kind of moot anyway.
I have been playing TOC 5-man since it was released and i used to run it everyday. I have seen someone dying & coming back may be once or twice. It is really not something you can depend on.
And that is only one dungeon out of the many many dungeons of WOTLK.
Originally posted by rav3n2 When you look at it that way yes your argument makes perfect sense, but in reality a harsher penalty affects many things within the MMO, when you have no penalties ppl dont care about their losses, they dont care if they are acting as idiots, they dont care if they are gonna be invited to the same group because no matter what bunch of idiots you go with you will do it until its done no matter what, you get ppl falling asleep, people watching TV while they play, ppl randomly leaving "sorry my mom called", ppl who pretend they are in game when in fact they are AFK "ohh shit I caused a wipe *giggles* better not tell anyone". When you have penalties your character looses something, when you go to a group to do something you are aware that there is something to loose but also ALOT to gain if you focus and that is usually the case, if you fuck up you also lost something in L2 for instance maybe now your gonna leave with less XP than you started with and that will teach you to pay more attention next time, if you stand AFK and cause a wipe and a massive loss for the entire group you are certain they will just kick you out and not invite you again, now you see the difference between the no penalty and the penalty mode is that with a penalty, only groups with active people will be doing whatever boss or dungeon you are trying to do , you cant just "go with any group next time" because you will probably loose more than you will win, within those games your reputation is usually very important and causes the majority of ppl to want to keep their intact, this can be easily verified in games like WoW I remember a few months back doing a PUG of Naxx you finished and got some loot but you always wipe 7 or 8 times more than if you go with your guild for instance, the point being the headbashers will go there 100 times and wipe 20 times per run but still do it and if you fuck up in a group that never wipes because you were watching that awesome TV commercial who cares just go with a group that wipes 10 times doesnt matter. Games without penalties usually create a more "head bashing" community where ppl dont really care about what they do and how they affect others which defeats the general point of MMO. MMOs have turned into Co-op single player games, anything outside instances are just glorified chat rooms where you wait for the next match up to go on your co-op adventure, if you die..ohhh well doesnt matter just go back to the chat and get another partner.
LOL .. you are just guessing and this is NOT what happened. On the server where I play, people are really not that tolerant of bad mistakes. People rage-quit raids if it wipes by stupid mistakes. People who are not performing are kicked frequently (dps/heal checks).
Harsh penalty is just going to make rage-quit much much worse. No one is going to stick around to learn a fight.
Blizzard has figured this out long ago .. you want people to learn, you want people to try things, you want people to try to play with one another ... do not put a harsh penalty as a roadblock.
If there is a harsh death penalty, no one will group with anyone else but the most dedicated no-lifers who don't make mistakes.
LOL .. you are just guessing and this is NOT what happened. On the server where I play, people are really not that tolerant of bad mistakes. People rage-quit raids if it wipes by stupid mistakes. People who are not performing are kicked frequently (dps/heal checks). Harsh penalty is just going to make rage-quit much much worse. No one is going to stick around to learn a fight. Blizzard has figured this out long ago .. you want people to learn, you want people to try things, you want people to try to play with one another ... do not put a harsh penalty as a roadblock. If there is a harsh death penalty, no one will group with anyone else but the most dedicated no-lifers who don't make mistakes.
Maybe the people you play with are just crybabies to begin with? You know, who quit at the first sign of trouble? lol if anything a harsh penalty will serve to weed out that type of player. =P
Originally posted by rav3n2 When you look at it that way yes your argument makes perfect sense, but in reality a harsher penalty affects many things within the MMO, when you have no penalties ppl dont care about their losses, they dont care if they are acting as idiots, they dont care if they are gonna be invited to the same group because no matter what bunch of idiots you go with you will do it until its done no matter what, you get ppl falling asleep, people watching TV while they play, ppl randomly leaving "sorry my mom called", ppl who pretend they are in game when in fact they are AFK "ohh shit I caused a wipe *giggles* better not tell anyone". When you have penalties your character looses something, when you go to a group to do something you are aware that there is something to loose but also ALOT to gain if you focus and that is usually the case, if you fuck up you also lost something in L2 for instance maybe now your gonna leave with less XP than you started with and that will teach you to pay more attention next time, if you stand AFK and cause a wipe and a massive loss for the entire group you are certain they will just kick you out and not invite you again, now you see the difference between the no penalty and the penalty mode is that with a penalty, only groups with active people will be doing whatever boss or dungeon you are trying to do , you cant just "go with any group next time" because you will probably loose more than you will win, within those games your reputation is usually very important and causes the majority of ppl to want to keep their intact, this can be easily verified in games like WoW I remember a few months back doing a PUG of Naxx you finished and got some loot but you always wipe 7 or 8 times more than if you go with your guild for instance, the point being the headbashers will go there 100 times and wipe 20 times per run but still do it and if you fuck up in a group that never wipes because you were watching that awesome TV commercial who cares just go with a group that wipes 10 times doesnt matter. Games without penalties usually create a more "head bashing" community where ppl dont really care about what they do and how they affect others which defeats the general point of MMO. MMOs have turned into Co-op single player games, anything outside instances are just glorified chat rooms where you wait for the next match up to go on your co-op adventure, if you die..ohhh well doesnt matter just go back to the chat and get another partner.
LOL .. you are just guessing and this is NOT what happened. On the server where I play, people are really not that tolerant of bad mistakes. People rage-quit raids if it wipes by stupid mistakes. People who are not performing are kicked frequently (dps/heal checks).
Harsh penalty is just going to make rage-quit much much worse. No one is going to stick around to learn a fight.
Blizzard has figured this out long ago .. you want people to learn, you want people to try things, you want people to try to play with one another ... do not put a harsh penalty as a roadblock.
If there is a harsh death penalty, no one will group with anyone else but the most dedicated no-lifers who don't make mistakes.
I am not guessing, a PUG group wipes alot more than an organized guild group this is a FACT, maybe you have never been in a guild that played with high organization, well I have for 4 years until recently, its a totally different dynamic, when pull after pull you have 5-6 ppl die and it doesnt matter you rez them at the end of the pack and keep going, you cant really deny this, its what happens, and its usually someone that doesnt care about a particular mechanic and keeps dieing and it doesnt matter there is really no motivation for him to do it right, he wont loose anything and wether no one dies until the end of the instance or 6 ppl die every pull you will still make it, its the "head basher" MMOs, this is not getting people to try it out, its hand helding ppl and encouraging them that being stupid pays off anyway, its telling ppl that are smart and have the organization that it doesnt matter that they can play the same way and win.
Originally posted by rav3n2 I am not guessing, a PUG group wipes alot more than an organized guild group this is a FACT, maybe you have never been in a guild that played with high organization, well I have for 4 years until recently, its a totally different dynamic, when pull after pull you have 5-6 ppl die and it doesnt matter you rez them at the end of the pack and keep going, you cant really deny this, its what happens, and its usually someone that doesnt care about a particular mechanic and keeps dieing and it doesnt matter there is really no motivation for him to do it right, he wont loose anything and wether no one dies until the end of the instance or 6 ppl die every pull you will still make it, its the "head basher" MMOs, this is not getting people to try it out, its hand helding ppl and encouraging them that being stupid pays off anyway, its telling ppl that are smart and have the organization that it doesnt matter that they can play the same way and win.
If you have 5-6 people die each pull and you can still beat the instance then your group is obviously too powerfull for the content and really should be doing something more challenging. If your doing content that is a real challenge for your group then you cannot afford a single death and those not pulling their weight will be replaced if you want to beat it.
Further, people don't really care if someone dies because of their own stupidity. People care a lot if they themselves die because of someone else's stupidity. People who get others killed, get kicked from groups.
Originally posted by rav3n2 I am not guessing, a PUG group wipes alot more than an organized guild group this is a FACT, maybe you have never been in a guild that played with high organization, well I have for 4 years until recently, its a totally different dynamic, when pull after pull you have 5-6 ppl die and it doesnt matter you rez them at the end of the pack and keep going, you cant really deny this, its what happens, and its usually someone that doesnt care about a particular mechanic and keeps dieing and it doesnt matter there is really no motivation for him to do it right, he wont loose anything and wether no one dies until the end of the instance or 6 ppl die every pull you will still make it, its the "head basher" MMOs, this is not getting people to try it out, its hand helding ppl and encouraging them that being stupid pays off anyway, its telling ppl that are smart and have the organization that it doesnt matter that they can play the same way and win.
If you have 5-6 people die each pull and you can still beat the instance then your group is obviously too powerfull for the content and really should be doing something more challenging. If your doing content that is a real challenge for your group then you cannot afford a single death and those not pulling their weight will be replaced if you want to beat it.
Further, people don't really care if someone dies because of their own stupidity. People care a lot if they themselves die because of someone else's stupidity. People who get others killed, get kicked from groups.
My point still stands, wether you play smartly or recklessly you will still win, I dunno about you but to me this completely breaks the whole feeling of accomplishment, I remember at some point in MMOs when it was meaningful to do something, when you had to prepare for something rather than throw yourself at it recklessly, when there was a clear distinction in those that have had a longer gaming journey than you did, nowadays in games like WoW it doesnt matter if you played for 4 years or if you played for 6 months you accomplish the same because ppl have nothing to loose, there is no moral compass and that is shown clearly in the WoW community nowadays.
Originally posted by rav3n2 I am not guessing, a PUG group wipes alot more than an organized guild group this is a FACT, maybe you have never been in a guild that played with high organization, well I have for 4 years until recently, its a totally different dynamic, when pull after pull you have 5-6 ppl die and it doesnt matter you rez them at the end of the pack and keep going, you cant really deny this, its what happens, and its usually someone that doesnt care about a particular mechanic and keeps dieing and it doesnt matter there is really no motivation for him to do it right, he wont loose anything and wether no one dies until the end of the instance or 6 ppl die every pull you will still make it, its the "head basher" MMOs, this is not getting people to try it out, its hand helding ppl and encouraging them that being stupid pays off anyway, its telling ppl that are smart and have the organization that it doesnt matter that they can play the same way and win.
If you have 5-6 people die each pull and you can still beat the instance then your group is obviously too powerfull for the content and really should be doing something more challenging. If your doing content that is a real challenge for your group then you cannot afford a single death and those not pulling their weight will be replaced if you want to beat it.
Further, people don't really care if someone dies because of their own stupidity. People care a lot if they themselves die because of someone else's stupidity. People who get others killed, get kicked from groups.
My point still stands, wether you play smartly or recklessly you will still win, I dunno about you but to me this completely breaks the whole feeling of accomplishment, I remember at some point in MMOs when it was meaningful to do something, when you had to prepare for something rather than throw yourself at it recklessly, when there was a clear distinction in those that have had a longer gaming journey than you did, nowadays in games like WoW it doesnt matter if you played for 4 years or if you played for 6 months you accomplish the same because ppl have nothing to loose, there is no moral compass and that is shown clearly in the WoW community nowadays.
If you want a real feeling of accomplishment then don't do content where you can slack off. When you are doing content that is actually challenging for you, you better 'shape up or ship out'. When you are on the cutting edge of content that is challenging (for you) then throwing yourself recklessly at it is not gonna do squat.
Complaining that people who played for 6 months accomplish the same or more as 4 year veterans simply means that they are better players than you are depite your years of experience. It could also mean that what you consider to be 'accomplishments' are actually pretty meaningless in the bigger picture.
WoW's content can be forgiving if you know what you are doing. However, if you lose focus or slack off too much, 'easy content' will wipe you out in a second. It is the nature of the game since it includes a ton of 'power multipliers' that only happen if you know how to play well.
Originally posted by rav3n2 I am not guessing, a PUG group wipes alot more than an organized guild group this is a FACT, maybe you have never been in a guild that played with high organization, well I have for 4 years until recently, its a totally different dynamic, when pull after pull you have 5-6 ppl die and it doesnt matter you rez them at the end of the pack and keep going, you cant really deny this, its what happens, and its usually someone that doesnt care about a particular mechanic and keeps dieing and it doesnt matter there is really no motivation for him to do it right, he wont loose anything and wether no one dies until the end of the instance or 6 ppl die every pull you will still make it, its the "head basher" MMOs, this is not getting people to try it out, its hand helding ppl and encouraging them that being stupid pays off anyway, its telling ppl that are smart and have the organization that it doesnt matter that they can play the same way and win.
If you have 5-6 people die each pull and you can still beat the instance then your group is obviously too powerfull for the content and really should be doing something more challenging. If your doing content that is a real challenge for your group then you cannot afford a single death and those not pulling their weight will be replaced if you want to beat it.
Further, people don't really care if someone dies because of their own stupidity. People care a lot if they themselves die because of someone else's stupidity. People who get others killed, get kicked from groups.
My point still stands, wether you play smartly or recklessly you will still win, I dunno about you but to me this completely breaks the whole feeling of accomplishment, I remember at some point in MMOs when it was meaningful to do something, when you had to prepare for something rather than throw yourself at it recklessly, when there was a clear distinction in those that have had a longer gaming journey than you did, nowadays in games like WoW it doesnt matter if you played for 4 years or if you played for 6 months you accomplish the same because ppl have nothing to loose, there is no moral compass and that is shown clearly in the WoW community nowadays.
This is about GAMES... They are supposed to be FUN and ENTERTAINING. If one is looking for some cosmic significance to justify ones time investment, I strongly suspect that one needs to find another hobby
Sure, games can be competitive, thats their appeal to some. But attempting to tie this all in to concepts like "moral compass" does a dis service to the under laying reality, as well as opening one up to various ideological questions. WoW is a game, its fun and entertaining to milions and millions of people. It doesn't need to be more than a game. People who don't care for the type of theme park style that WoW uses, should pick some other game for their fun and entertainment.
Comments
Nah,eq1 you actually lose levels.
Funny how that served as a deterrent for playing like a moron. That is unlike other games, where any moron can make it to the top, even while acting like a moron. Why do people currently dislike grouping again?
Because of the morons of course...
Groups are an entirely different dynamic than solo play. In a group, you have to deal with other peoples distractions(Wife aggro can be a killer. ^^) time commitments and all of the rest. Groups are usually more trouble than they are worth these days. Add in death penalties, and they are REALLY not worth it.
Nah,eq1 you actually lose levels.
Funny how that served as a deterrent for playing like a moron. That is unlike other games, where any moron can make it to the top, even while acting like a moron. Why do people currently dislike grouping again?
Because of the morons of course...
Groups are an entirely different dynamic than solo play. In a group, you have to deal with other peoples distractions(Wife aggro can be a killer. ^^) time commitments and all of the rest. Groups are usually more trouble than they are worth these days. Add in death penalties, and they are REALLY not worth it.
Not trying to sound antagonistic here... I'm just curious...
"groups are more trouble than they're worth these days"... How are they any different "these days" than they've ever been? People had wives and 'distractions' 5, 7, 10 years ago as well. It never detracted from the grouping experience, *and* death was harsher.
That seems like an example of this strange, sort of restricted view that some people seem to have toward the genre... That is... things change for them in their lives, and so they assume that it's changing for everyone else as well and the industry is required to "keep up" with them.
An example I see a lot is something along the lines of, "I was younger and had more time then to play games. I'm married with a full time job and don't have as much time now, so it's important that developers change with the times by making the MMOs more solo-able and more accessible."
I don't think the people realize how egocentric that sounds, but it really comes across like "my priorities have changed, so I don't want games to be the way they were when I was younger, so I don't like slower leveling or a death penalty and any MMO that has either is bad".
The MMO genre still has new people coming to it - people who are the same age any one of us might have been when we first started playing. They have the time to play now just like we did back then.... why do they suddenly not count? Because *we've* "grown up"? That's ridiculous and amazingly "me-sighted".
Also, what of the people who don't have a lot of time to play, but still prefer a slower-moving game with a harsher death penalty? You know, not everyone feels like they need to level every night (as an example) to enjoy themselves. Not everyone feels like they're "being forced to group" if some quests or encounters aren't soloable... Some of us actually *enjoy* that and feel that the trend of MMOs being made more and more soloable is killing that. But, I know... the "solo everything except end game raids" people don't care about that.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
WoW manages to fullfill these conditions and has a much lower death penalty than FFXI.
Ahhh.... not even close.
I've played FFXI since it launched in the US. I've played WoW, though not as much, since it launched in the US. I've witnessed and experienced *far* more reckless and sloppy behavior in less time playing WoW than I ever did in 6+ years playing FFXI.
Lineage 2 and FFXI are a better comparison in that regard. Because the death penalty in each game has a definite 'bite' to it, people are considerably more strategic and cautious in how they approach situations, and aren't nearly as tolerant of screw-ups - at any level - as they are in WoW.
Hmm .. can you READ? He said wow can "detour people from exploting it as a warp method or zerging a boss untill they get lucky and win" ..
Whatever you said is IRREVELANT to whether WOW can deter those two behavior (which it can).
I agree and i've always said the death penalty (xp penalty) only discourages pushing your limits. Do I want to take 3 mobs or 4? Better not ...Ill take 2 so I dont risk losing xp.
WoW manages to fullfill these conditions and has a much lower death penalty than FFXI.
Ahhh.... not even close.
I've played FFXI since it launched in the US. I've played WoW, though not as much, since it launched in the US. I've witnessed and experienced *far* more reckless and sloppy behavior in less time playing WoW than I ever did in 6+ years playing FFXI.
Lineage 2 and FFXI are a better comparison in that regard. Because the death penalty in each game has a definite 'bite' to it, people are considerably more strategic and cautious in how they approach situations, and aren't nearly as tolerant of screw-ups - at any level - as they are in WoW.
Hmm .. can you READ? He said wow can "detour people from exploting it as a warp method or zerging a boss untill they get lucky and win" ..
Whatever you said is IRREVELANT to whether WOW can deter those two behavior (which it can).
Yes, I can read just fine... Can you respond without hurling personal INSULTS?
See? I can type in all caps too. Does that mean I'm cool like you? That would *so* make my life complete.
I still disagree with his assessment, and yours. I've *seen* people use death as a means of convenient transportation in WoW, time and again. My brother bragged about "cemetery hopping" to explore Azeroth. I've seen people throw themselves time and again at difficult battles - bosses and normal encounters alike - basically "zerging" 'til they got the win when simply using their heads and a little bit of strategy (I know... where's the fun in that?) would have made it a lot smoother, and a lot more satisfying, with far lower repair bills.
You will *not* see that kind of FFXI even *remotely* as much as you do in WoW. People who recklessly run into battle with a boss and die are going to find themselves lacking invites. People who use death as a convenient way of transportation are going to find themselves not leveling very much.
My point stands. Death is *not* a serious enough deterrent in WoW to stop people doing those things.... at least not for a substantial number of people.
Thanks for playing, though.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
WoW manages to fullfill these conditions and has a much lower death penalty than FFXI.
Ahhh.... not even close.
I've played FFXI since it launched in the US. I've played WoW, though not as much, since it launched in the US. I've witnessed and experienced *far* more reckless and sloppy behavior in less time playing WoW than I ever did in 6+ years playing FFXI.
Lineage 2 and FFXI are a better comparison in that regard. Because the death penalty in each game has a definite 'bite' to it, people are considerably more strategic and cautious in how they approach situations, and aren't nearly as tolerant of screw-ups - at any level - as they are in WoW.
Hmm .. can you READ? He said wow can "detour people from exploting it as a warp method or zerging a boss untill they get lucky and win" ..
Whatever you said is IRREVELANT to whether WOW can deter those two behavior (which it can).
Yes, I can read just fine... Can you respond without hurling personal INSULTS?
See? I can type in all caps too. Does that mean I'm cool like you? That would *so* make my life complete.
I still disagree with his assessment, and yours. I've *seen* people use death as a means of convenient transportation in WoW, time and again. My brother bragged about "cemetery hopping" to explore Azeroth. I've seen people throw themselves time and again at difficult battles - bosses and normal encounters alike - basically "zerging" 'til they got the win when simply using their heads and a little bit of strategy (I know... where's the fun in that?) would have made it a lot smoother, and a lot more satisfying, with far lower repair bills.
You will *not* see that kind of FFXI even *remotely* as much as you do in WoW. People who recklessly run into battle with a boss and die are going to find themselves lacking invites. People who use death as a convenient way of transportation are going to find themselves not leveling very much.
My point stands. Death is *not* a serious enough deterrent in WoW to stop people doing those things.... at least not for a substantial number of people.
Thanks for playing, though.
No, you will not see that type of behavior in FFXI...Neither will FFXI ever have even *remotely* as many subscriptions as WoW has. I suspect there is a connection here... Simple fact of the matter is I will NOT play games with corpse runs, gear/level loss. Its simply not worth my time and money. That also seems to be the market trend. Those who want death penalties should stick to games that have them.
Nah,eq1 you actually lose levels.
Funny how that served as a deterrent for playing like a moron. That is unlike other games, where any moron can make it to the top, even while acting like a moron. Why do people currently dislike grouping again?
Because of the morons of course...
Groups are an entirely different dynamic than solo play. In a group, you have to deal with other peoples distractions(Wife aggro can be a killer. ^^) time commitments and all of the rest. Groups are usually more trouble than they are worth these days. Add in death penalties, and they are REALLY not worth it.
You want to know the biggest sercret to why groups these days are more trouble than their worth? Because these days games are more focused on solo play. Only incentive to group is self greed. If a game focuses on group play those days go out the window.
But lets not de-rail the death penalty thread. Even though both topics have been beat to death in the past. No one is going to change anyone elses mind.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
You would equate it to learning from your mistakes. If there is no penalty involved, how could it be classified as a mistake?
You don't use safety goggles when using power tools, you get something in your eye, yhou go to the hospital to get it fixed, and you feel pain, so you put on the safety goggles next time.
The xp loss is the going to the hospital part and hte pain. They can't make you feel real pain in an MMORPG unles they hook you up to electrodes while you play the game, but they can make you feel the pain of losing xp.
Is there a need to levy an external penalty in order to learn from a mistake. So we need to equip the teacher with a cane during a test. Beat up the stupid student who do the math wrong?
Do I need a club on my head when I missed the tennis? Do I need an electronic shock when I make a wrong move during the lunch time chess game? Do I need a kick in the ass when I lose in the evening card games next to the family grill?
Your examples about injuries at work are natural consequences of mistakes in RL, pain we work hard to PREVENT. You suggestion to deliberately introduce electronic versions of such pain, is ridiculous. Do we need to introduce every RL thing in our game? Do we need to introduce the worse in RL into our games?
Have you actually played the game? Which L80 boss you can zerg and win? You can't even get back in the fight after you are dead .. because the instance is not open to you when an encounter is in progress. You have to wipe the whole party and go in and start the fight from the start again.
Don't make things up. And this is not an "assessment". It is a gameplay mechanics. Zerging is not possible in almost all dungeon/raid encounters. Period.
Have you actually played the game? Which L80 boss you can zerg and win? You can't even get back in the fight after you are dead .. because the instance is not open to you when an encounter is in progress. You have to wipe the whole party and go in and start the fight from the start again.
Don't make things up. And this is not an "assessment". It is a gameplay mechanics. Zerging is not possible in almost all dungeon/raid encounters. Period.
What version of WoW does he play? Maybe he should try playing the game before he discusses it. I have never been able to Zerg anything in WoW outside of PvP battle grounds. Cemetary hopping is a myth. You have to either run back to your body or take resurrection sickness for 10 minutes (75% lower stats) and lose 25% durability of your armour (which really sucks). I don't comment on how lame the perma death in DF is because I'VE NEVER PLAYED IT! Learn to do the same. Thank you nariusseldon for catching this :P
A witty saying proves nothing.
-Voltaire
Have you actually played the game? Which L80 boss you can zerg and win? You can't even get back in the fight after you are dead .. because the instance is not open to you when an encounter is in progress. You have to wipe the whole party and go in and start the fight from the start again.
Don't make things up. And this is not an "assessment". It is a gameplay mechanics. Zerging is not possible in almost all dungeon/raid encounters. Period.
What version of WoW does he play? Maybe he should try playing the game before he discusses it. I have never been able to Zerg anything in WoW outside of PvP battle grounds. Cemetary hopping is a myth. You have to either run back to your body or take resurrection sickness for 10 minutes (75% lower stats) and lose 25% durability of your armour (which really sucks). I don't comment on how lame the perma death in DF is because I'VE NEVER PLAYED IT! Learn to do the same. Thank you nariusseldon for catching this :P
Actually the 5man instance in the Argent Tournament allows you to run back in an rejoin the fight when you die. This only works in the 5man and I was actually suprised that it did not lock the instance like it does in every other case. On the other hand the fights in there are just not that hard where that ever becomes a viable strategy.
As far as graveyard hopping to explore that is really only a gimmick now if you want to explore the world on a low level character. It is a slow way to travel especially since Blizzard added all those extra graveyards which mean that you will no longer be transported all the way to the other end of the zone. Any possible time savings are miniscule compared to the durability hit and the long res sickness duration.
Have you actually played the game? Which L80 boss you can zerg and win? You can't even get back in the fight after you are dead .. because the instance is not open to you when an encounter is in progress. You have to wipe the whole party and go in and start the fight from the start again.
Don't make things up. And this is not an "assessment". It is a gameplay mechanics. Zerging is not possible in almost all dungeon/raid encounters. Period.
What version of WoW does he play? Maybe he should try playing the game before he discusses it. I have never been able to Zerg anything in WoW outside of PvP battle grounds. Cemetary hopping is a myth. You have to either run back to your body or take resurrection sickness for 10 minutes (75% lower stats) and lose 25% durability of your armour (which really sucks). I don't comment on how lame the perma death in DF is because I'VE NEVER PLAYED IT! Learn to do the same. Thank you nariusseldon for catching this :P
Actually the 5man instance in the Argent Tournament allows you to run back in an rejoin the fight when you die. This only works in the 5man and I was actually suprised that it did not lock the instance like it does in every other case. On the other hand the fights in there are just not that hard where that ever becomes a viable strategy.
As far as graveyard hopping to explore that is really only a gimmick now if you want to explore the world on a low level character. It is a slow way to travel especially since Blizzard added all those extra graveyards which mean that you will no longer be transported all the way to the other end of the zone. Any possible time savings are miniscule compared to the durability hit and the long res sickness duration.
okay, I did notice that with the Argent Tournament 5 man, but that is the exception, not the rule and I can't think of any boss where zerging would be a viable option in the first place. I was more pointing out that commenting based on heresay is well, to be polite about it, ill-informed.
A witty saying proves nothing.
-Voltaire
When you look at it that way yes your argument makes perfect sense, but in reality a harsher penalty affects many things within the MMO, when you have no penalties ppl dont care about their losses, they dont care if they are acting as idiots, they dont care if they are gonna be invited to the same group because no matter what bunch of idiots you go with you will do it until its done no matter what, you get ppl falling asleep, people watching TV while they play, ppl randomly leaving "sorry my mom called", ppl who pretend they are in game when in fact they are AFK "ohh shit I caused a wipe *giggles* better not tell anyone".
When you have penalties your character looses something, when you go to a group to do something you are aware that there is something to loose but also ALOT to gain if you focus and that is usually the case, if you fuck up you also lost something in L2 for instance maybe now your gonna leave with less XP than you started with and that will teach you to pay more attention next time, if you stand AFK and cause a wipe and a massive loss for the entire group you are certain they will just kick you out and not invite you again, now you see the difference between the no penalty and the penalty mode is that with a penalty, only groups with active people will be doing whatever boss or dungeon you are trying to do , you cant just "go with any group next time" because you will probably loose more than you will win, within those games your reputation is usually very important and causes the majority of ppl to want to keep their intact, this can be easily verified in games like WoW I remember a few months back doing a PUG of Naxx you finished and got some loot but you always wipe 7 or 8 times more than if you go with your guild for instance, the point being the headbashers will go there 100 times and wipe 20 times per run but still do it and if you fuck up in a group that never wipes because you were watching that awesome TV commercial who cares just go with a group that wipes 10 times doesnt matter.
Games without penalties usually create a more "head bashing" community where ppl dont really care about what they do and how they affect others which defeats the general point of MMO. MMOs have turned into Co-op single player games, anything outside instances are just glorified chat rooms where you wait for the next match up to go on your co-op adventure, if you die..ohhh well doesnt matter just go back to the chat and get another partner.
When you look at it that way yes your argument makes perfect sense, but in reality a harsher penalty affects many things within the MMO, when you have no penalties ppl dont care about their losses, they dont care if they are acting as idiots, they dont care if they are gonna be invited to the same group because no matter what bunch of idiots you go with you will do it until its done no matter what, you get ppl falling asleep, people watching TV while they play, ppl randomly leaving "sorry my mom called", ppl who pretend they are in game when in fact they are AFK "ohh shit I caused a wipe *giggles* better not tell anyone".
When you have penalties your character looses something, when you go to a group to do something you are aware that there is something to loose but also ALOT to gain if you focus and that is usually the case, if you fuck up you also lost something in L2 for instance maybe now your gonna leave with less XP than you started with and that will teach you to pay more attention next time, if you stand AFK and cause a wipe and a massive loss for the entire group you are certain they will just kick you out and not invite you again, now you see the difference between the no penalty and the penalty mode is that with a penalty, only groups with active people will be doing whatever boss or dungeon you are trying to do , you cant just "go with any group next time" because you will probably loose more than you will win, within those games your reputation is usually very important and causes the majority of ppl to want to keep their intact, this can be easily verified in games like WoW I remember a few months back doing a PUG of Naxx you finished and got some loot but you always wipe 7 or 8 times more than if you go with your guild for instance, the point being the headbashers will go there 100 times and wipe 20 times per run but still do it and if you fuck up in a group that never wipes because you were watching that awesome TV commercial who cares just go with a group that wipes 10 times doesnt matter.
Games without penalties usually create a more "head bashing" community where ppl dont really care about what they do and how they affect others which defeats the general point of MMO. MMOs have turned into Co-op single player games, anything outside instances are just glorified chat rooms where you wait for the next match up to go on your co-op adventure, if you die..ohhh well doesnt matter just go back to the chat and get another partner.
I agree to some extent, but therein lies the need for guilds and raid leaders. If I have people not doing their job, or not paying attention, or watching tv, or going afk without notice, they get kicked and often added to my ignore list. On my server in WoW (Malfurion Horde) you learn who the idiots are at high levels and you know who to not bring to raids pretty quick. The idiots, the douche bags, and the ninjas get weeded out pretty quick.
A witty saying proves nothing.
-Voltaire
I think i can shine some light here
I come from tibia, which is one of the games with the highest death penalty ever, before a patch if you died with no promotion, unblessed and not wearing an amulet of loss you lost:
-10% of your total experience
-Your backpack and any other containers you had equipped
-10% of ALL your skills
-Each item equipped had a 10% chance to be dropped upon death, there are boots, legs, armor, helmet, right and left arms, ring and amulet, that's a 8 item total, so .9^8 = 43% chance to escape with your other items intact, so more than half the times you died unprotected you lost at least one item in adittion to your backpack
Needless to say, dying at higher levels was a pain, you were able to purchase blessings for 10k gold each and there are 5 total blessings for a grand total of 50k, each blessing reduced death penalty by 1%, plus another 50k gold for an amulet of loss which prevented any items dropping upon death, but blessings and amulet dissapeared after being used, promotion on your vocation also reduced death penalty by a permanent 2%, you have a pretty decent incentive not to die, so it was fine, however...
-The tech crew at CIPsoft are unable to mantain stable service, which results in constant lag/kicks/freezes
-They are also unable to deal with Ddos attacks, which causes masskicks where lots of players die
-Sometimes the client crashes unexpectedly, which results in deaths
However, the most important point is as follows, when you die unprotected you drop items, either if you were killed by a player or a creature, as a result abusive players commonly know as pks often kill others for the items they drop, they use cowardly tactics such as ganging up on teams of 5+ against a single player, killing players WAY below their level (lvl 145 vs lvl 45 for instance) or attacking players who are on a major disadvantage such as fighting multiple creatures and thus unable to defend themselves appropiately, now you might say PvP is a factor on games like that, and you would be right, but that brings up another great point, botters
Botters are people who are simply too stupid to play the game, and thus they depend on a script to play it for them, in tibia there's a particular indiference from the managers to effectively punish botters, as a result, the botting comunity has grown strong and unmatched, how can you rival someone with a lvl 100 char leveled by hand when they have a main lvl 187 and several alts lvl 80+ they have never put effort into? if you manage to kill them it means they lost a few hours of electric power and internet connection, however if you die you lose days, maybe weeks of hard work, hunting and questing
As a direct result, death penalty was too harsh for those who played manually, so it had to be lowered, which is fine since most deaths at higher levels are not even the players' fault, but they die by lousy game development or service, still the abussive players cause a lot of death, which can be frustrating enough for someone to quit, what's the point on hunting for 2 hours if an abusive player with twice your level will kill you and recieve all your hard earned loot?
While i do agree no death penalty is somewhat lame, a too harsh death penalty is just as bad, a game with no difficulty is just as boring as a game with an insane difficulty, i remember i played doom 3 for PC and i loved it, after i finished hard mode the option "nightmare" unlocked, and i eagerly choose to re-play the game with a higher difficulty, what was the difficulty added? you lost hp EVERY SINGLE SECOND until it dropped to 10, and after that even a fart of a monster would kill you, needless to say it was stupidly hard and not funny, i would agree with better AI for monsters, more hp, less ammo, but hp loss every single second? that's simply annoying, not challenging
I agree new MMOs require harsher death penalty, however, IF AND ONLY IF the power abuse issue is under control, how is that fixed? rule enforcing and bot elimination, why do botters abuse their power? because they don't care if they die since the bot can earn back what they lost in a matter of hours, and since they never played the char they never lost anything really, also a compensation policy in case of death by game failure should be enforced in order for a harsher death penalty to work, why should you pay for the company's mistakes? if the server went down or the client crashed it's not your fault, you should not pa for that
Haikus are easy
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okay, I did notice that with the Argent Tournament 5 man, but that is the exception, not the rule and I can't think of any boss where zerging would be a viable option in the first place. I was more pointing out that commenting based on heresay is well, to be polite about it, ill-informed.
TOC 5 man is the only one. Plus, it will reset if everyone dies and no one can survive more than 2-3 sec if the tank dies. So zerging is kind of moot anyway.
I have been playing TOC 5-man since it was released and i used to run it everyday. I have seen someone dying & coming back may be once or twice. It is really not something you can depend on.
And that is only one dungeon out of the many many dungeons of WOTLK.
LOL .. you are just guessing and this is NOT what happened. On the server where I play, people are really not that tolerant of bad mistakes. People rage-quit raids if it wipes by stupid mistakes. People who are not performing are kicked frequently (dps/heal checks).
Harsh penalty is just going to make rage-quit much much worse. No one is going to stick around to learn a fight.
Blizzard has figured this out long ago .. you want people to learn, you want people to try things, you want people to try to play with one another ... do not put a harsh penalty as a roadblock.
If there is a harsh death penalty, no one will group with anyone else but the most dedicated no-lifers who don't make mistakes.
Maybe the people you play with are just crybabies to begin with? You know, who quit at the first sign of trouble? lol if anything a harsh penalty will serve to weed out that type of player. =P
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."
LOL .. you are just guessing and this is NOT what happened. On the server where I play, people are really not that tolerant of bad mistakes. People rage-quit raids if it wipes by stupid mistakes. People who are not performing are kicked frequently (dps/heal checks).
Harsh penalty is just going to make rage-quit much much worse. No one is going to stick around to learn a fight.
Blizzard has figured this out long ago .. you want people to learn, you want people to try things, you want people to try to play with one another ... do not put a harsh penalty as a roadblock.
If there is a harsh death penalty, no one will group with anyone else but the most dedicated no-lifers who don't make mistakes.
I am not guessing, a PUG group wipes alot more than an organized guild group this is a FACT, maybe you have never been in a guild that played with high organization, well I have for 4 years until recently, its a totally different dynamic, when pull after pull you have 5-6 ppl die and it doesnt matter you rez them at the end of the pack and keep going, you cant really deny this, its what happens, and its usually someone that doesnt care about a particular mechanic and keeps dieing and it doesnt matter there is really no motivation for him to do it right, he wont loose anything and wether no one dies until the end of the instance or 6 ppl die every pull you will still make it, its the "head basher" MMOs, this is not getting people to try it out, its hand helding ppl and encouraging them that being stupid pays off anyway, its telling ppl that are smart and have the organization that it doesnt matter that they can play the same way and win.
If you have 5-6 people die each pull and you can still beat the instance then your group is obviously too powerfull for the content and really should be doing something more challenging. If your doing content that is a real challenge for your group then you cannot afford a single death and those not pulling their weight will be replaced if you want to beat it.
Further, people don't really care if someone dies because of their own stupidity. People care a lot if they themselves die because of someone else's stupidity. People who get others killed, get kicked from groups.
If you have 5-6 people die each pull and you can still beat the instance then your group is obviously too powerfull for the content and really should be doing something more challenging. If your doing content that is a real challenge for your group then you cannot afford a single death and those not pulling their weight will be replaced if you want to beat it.
Further, people don't really care if someone dies because of their own stupidity. People care a lot if they themselves die because of someone else's stupidity. People who get others killed, get kicked from groups.
My point still stands, wether you play smartly or recklessly you will still win, I dunno about you but to me this completely breaks the whole feeling of accomplishment, I remember at some point in MMOs when it was meaningful to do something, when you had to prepare for something rather than throw yourself at it recklessly, when there was a clear distinction in those that have had a longer gaming journey than you did, nowadays in games like WoW it doesnt matter if you played for 4 years or if you played for 6 months you accomplish the same because ppl have nothing to loose, there is no moral compass and that is shown clearly in the WoW community nowadays.
If you have 5-6 people die each pull and you can still beat the instance then your group is obviously too powerfull for the content and really should be doing something more challenging. If your doing content that is a real challenge for your group then you cannot afford a single death and those not pulling their weight will be replaced if you want to beat it.
Further, people don't really care if someone dies because of their own stupidity. People care a lot if they themselves die because of someone else's stupidity. People who get others killed, get kicked from groups.
My point still stands, wether you play smartly or recklessly you will still win, I dunno about you but to me this completely breaks the whole feeling of accomplishment, I remember at some point in MMOs when it was meaningful to do something, when you had to prepare for something rather than throw yourself at it recklessly, when there was a clear distinction in those that have had a longer gaming journey than you did, nowadays in games like WoW it doesnt matter if you played for 4 years or if you played for 6 months you accomplish the same because ppl have nothing to loose, there is no moral compass and that is shown clearly in the WoW community nowadays.
If you want a real feeling of accomplishment then don't do content where you can slack off. When you are doing content that is actually challenging for you, you better 'shape up or ship out'. When you are on the cutting edge of content that is challenging (for you) then throwing yourself recklessly at it is not gonna do squat.
Complaining that people who played for 6 months accomplish the same or more as 4 year veterans simply means that they are better players than you are depite your years of experience. It could also mean that what you consider to be 'accomplishments' are actually pretty meaningless in the bigger picture.
WoW's content can be forgiving if you know what you are doing. However, if you lose focus or slack off too much, 'easy content' will wipe you out in a second. It is the nature of the game since it includes a ton of 'power multipliers' that only happen if you know how to play well.
If you have 5-6 people die each pull and you can still beat the instance then your group is obviously too powerfull for the content and really should be doing something more challenging. If your doing content that is a real challenge for your group then you cannot afford a single death and those not pulling their weight will be replaced if you want to beat it.
Further, people don't really care if someone dies because of their own stupidity. People care a lot if they themselves die because of someone else's stupidity. People who get others killed, get kicked from groups.
My point still stands, wether you play smartly or recklessly you will still win, I dunno about you but to me this completely breaks the whole feeling of accomplishment, I remember at some point in MMOs when it was meaningful to do something, when you had to prepare for something rather than throw yourself at it recklessly, when there was a clear distinction in those that have had a longer gaming journey than you did, nowadays in games like WoW it doesnt matter if you played for 4 years or if you played for 6 months you accomplish the same because ppl have nothing to loose, there is no moral compass and that is shown clearly in the WoW community nowadays.
This is about GAMES... They are supposed to be FUN and ENTERTAINING. If one is looking for some cosmic significance to justify ones time investment, I strongly suspect that one needs to find another hobby
Sure, games can be competitive, thats their appeal to some. But attempting to tie this all in to concepts like "moral compass" does a dis service to the under laying reality, as well as opening one up to various ideological questions. WoW is a game, its fun and entertaining to milions and millions of people. It doesn't need to be more than a game. People who don't care for the type of theme park style that WoW uses, should pick some other game for their fun and entertainment.
Games cannot be fun and entertaining without challenge. Death Penalties are a form of this challenge.
Only *A* form of them. They are not necessary and sufficient. In many cases they are a liability.