you can solo in ALL good grouping games, you just dont' make progress as fast as groupers. This is true in EQ nad DAoC both good grouping games. So YOUR playstyle is still doable, you can still solo. Solo friendly games don't stop you from grouping, true, but group friendly games dont' stop you from soloing either. I disagree that your statement is correct, that ONLY solo friendly games allow both play styles. It's simply a false statement. IMO, the Pubic Quest idea sounds great on paper, but after playing WAR I thought in practice it sucked.
It worked at first when there were enough lowbies that anyone could get a group to do them. The problem with that game and with any other lower level MMO group content, is that after a while, there aren't enough lowbies to do the content, and people can't progress, get frustrated, and quit.
I played DAoC and had no trouble soloing, which is good considering some classes never got groups and some were kinda hard to solo with, but I'm not sure I would classify DAoC as a group oriented game when it came to leveling. You could always find camps of equal level mobs you could solo. I never played EQ, but I'll take peoples' word for it that you really couldn't solo past early levels in that game.
Originally posted by Darth_Osor I'm an altoholic, As am I. Hit the cap in WoW, and had about 70 alts in Warhammer. so I don't need encouragement to roll alts, but so far this only worsens the problem because with each alt, it seems harder to find a group to level with in MMOs I've played. That's be cause other people DO need encouragement to reroll and level alts. The only way I think that would work would be for high levels to scale down in level to the lowbies they want to group with. Lowbies scaling up is just power leveling.
Here's one idea: your main has access to a top-end gear set the pieces of which are earned by leveling up alts. One piece for each alt.
There are other ways of doing it, but I think tying end game progression to leveling alts would work very well. Wouldn't it be nice to deck out your main in top gear without having to grind instances?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Difference is, you can still group in solo friendly games, so your preferred playstyle is still doable...the reverse is rarely true. What's preventing you from soloing? If the game makes me group to level, it's preventing me from soloing. A game that is solo friendly, you can still group all you want.
I generally like grouping, problem is that it's usually more hassle than it's worth, at least to level. That's the whole point. Grouping needs to be rewarded enough to BE worth the hassle. I don't disagree, but TO LEVEL, I haven't found a game where this is true. LotRO probably came closest.
How does a game make you group to level?
All you (the devs) have to do is stop dividing xp by the number of players and make all quest items go to every member when the drop. That alone would greatly increase grouping.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
How does a game make you group to level? All you (the devs) have to do is stop dividing xp by the number of players and make all quest items go to every member when the drop. That alone would greatly increase grouping.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp And I won't play a game that's solo friendly pre-raid because the grouping part of the game, which I enjoy, sucks. that's why developers should make different games for different types of players to capture different segments of the market. Some people want FFA PvP, some people like P2P some like F2P, and so on. There's no problem that you want a solo friendly game. Developers should make them to cater to players like you.
Difference is, you can still group in solo friendly games, so your preferred playstyle is still doable...the reverse is rarely true. I generally like grouping, problem is that it's usually more hassle than it's worth, at least to level.
Of course end game should be group dependent. The problem with group dependent leveling is after the first couple months, there aren't a ton of lower levels running around to group with. When WAR first launched, the "public quests" were great because there were no shortage of people your level to do them with. After a short time, you were SOL.
you can solo in ALL good grouping games, you just dont' make progress as fast as groupers.
This is true in EQ nad DAoC both good grouping games.
So YOUR playstyle is still doable, you can still solo.
Solo friendly games don't stop you from grouping, true, but group friendly games dont' stop you from soloing either.
I disagree that your statement is correct, that ONLY solo friendly games allow both play styles. It's simply a false statement.
IMO, the Pubic Quest idea sounds great on paper, but after playing WAR I thought in practice it sucked.
Not all grouping games. Did you ever try soloing some of the dungeons in Dungeons and Dragons at the original launch? They where not designed for that. In fact, I'd say that with in a given level range, they could not be solo'ed successfully. Which is just one of the reasons that DDO had the subscriber problems that it did.
I played the DDO beta. I didn't find soloing to be a problem. You know it had easy, medium, and hard versions of all the dungeons right?
You could usually do the easy versions solo. maybe not all at once, you might have to gear up and level up, but you could certainly do them.
I don't think lack of solo content had anything to do with the failure of DDO.
It was that everything was instanced and the lack of an open world. Didn't feel like an MMORPG, felt like Diablo witha subscription fee.
you can solo in ALL good grouping games, you just dont' make progress as fast as groupers. This is true in EQ nad DAoC both good grouping games. So YOUR playstyle is still doable, you can still solo. Solo friendly games don't stop you from grouping, true, but group friendly games dont' stop you from soloing either. I disagree that your statement is correct, that ONLY solo friendly games allow both play styles. It's simply a false statement. IMO, the Pubic Quest idea sounds great on paper, but after playing WAR I thought in practice it sucked.
It worked at first when there were enough lowbies that anyone could get a group to do them. The problem with that game and with any other lower level MMO group content, is that after a while, there aren't enough lowbies to do the content, and people can't progress, get frustrated, and quit.
I played DAoC and had no trouble soloing, which is good considering some classes never got groups and some were kinda hard to solo with, but I'm not sure I would classify DAoC as a group oriented game when it came to leveling. You could always find camps of equal level mobs you could solo. I never played EQ, but I'll take peoples' word for it that you really couldn't solo past early levels in that game.
Actually in EQ, I could solo with various classes late into the game np. It was just better to group. Easier, faster experience. Also with daoc, I've soloed a few to 50, but had faster and safer experience with a group doing gobs in lyonese. Of course later in the game's life, it was easier to just exp in BGs solo on mobs or grouped fighting people, hehe.
I think even ffxi you could solo with a certain combo (didn't play much), but that was way more of a grouping game than even EQ.
Diversity is key to succes. You need group AND solo gameplay.
In any MMO that I played, I saw some players that expect others to be ready to help them at any moment. Instead of joining a guild or building a friendslist, they expect to PUG on demand through everything. When they dont get their group instantly, they start to bitch and moan and write posts like the OP.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp And I won't play a game that's solo friendly pre-raid because the grouping part of the game, which I enjoy, sucks. that's why developers should make different games for different types of players to capture different segments of the market. Some people want FFA PvP, some people like P2P some like F2P, and so on. There's no problem that you want a solo friendly game. Developers should make them to cater to players like you.
Difference is, you can still group in solo friendly games, so your preferred playstyle is still doable...the reverse is rarely true. I generally like grouping, problem is that it's usually more hassle than it's worth, at least to level.
Of course end game should be group dependent. The problem with group dependent leveling is after the first couple months, there aren't a ton of lower levels running around to group with. When WAR first launched, the "public quests" were great because there were no shortage of people your level to do them with. After a short time, you were SOL.
you can solo in ALL good grouping games, you just dont' make progress as fast as groupers.
This is true in EQ nad DAoC both good grouping games.
So YOUR playstyle is still doable, you can still solo.
Solo friendly games don't stop you from grouping, true, but group friendly games dont' stop you from soloing either.
I disagree that your statement is correct, that ONLY solo friendly games allow both play styles. It's simply a false statement.
IMO, the Pubic Quest idea sounds great on paper, but after playing WAR I thought in practice it sucked.
Not all grouping games. Did you ever try soloing some of the dungeons in Dungeons and Dragons at the original launch? They where not designed for that. In fact, I'd say that with in a given level range, they could not be solo'ed successfully. Which is just one of the reasons that DDO had the subscriber problems that it did.
I played the DDO beta. I didn't find soloing to be a problem. You know it had easy, medium, and hard versions of all the dungeons right?
You could usually do the easy versions solo. maybe not all at once, you might have to gear up and level up, but you could certainly do them.
I don't think lack of solo content had anything to do with the failure of DDO.
It was that everything was instanced and the lack of an open world. Didn't feel like an MMORPG, felt like Diablo witha subscription fee.
I'm speaking of the *original launch* not the current version. I can't get the current version to run on my system. I keep getting a BSOD 116 error(conflict with one of Nvidia's driver sub systems). There is no way in hell that anyone within a level range of a dungeon could solo it, in the original version.
First of all - I am PAYING to play this game. If someone wants me to play the game THEIR way THEY CAN PAY MY FEES and I WILL consider playing it their way.
I DO NOT play WOW as a job. I play for recreation - so I play when I want - how I want. I do not want some whiner sobbing "Oh no one wants to play with me - so make the rules FORCE them to." The day that happens I'm outa here. They can play by (with) themselves.
Not everyone is interested in getting to the max level as fast as possible. As I mentioned I HAVE NO TWINKS. Everything my troops have (on both accounts) they have looted from monsters or earned by "Farming" or by playing the AH. I have been playing WOW for three years now and my Highest level troop STILL does not qualify for me to make a DK. On the other hand - most of my troops have 100 gold by the time they are level 10 - and they do not have to beg for gold to buy things.
I DO not do arenas - PVP - DUEL or any of that other BS. With 10,000 monsters built into the game it will be a LONG time before I fight them all - Why waste time fighting each other?
I like WOW because it gives me a MASSIVE world to play in - Not because some people think it is ONLY for players(?) to GROUP in. As far as interaction is concerned I DO interact. I will trade with other players that have something to sell that I need , or I will sell them something if I have what THEY need. I do not have to LIVE with them
When I play a class I want to learn ALL of the capabilities AND limitations of that class. I just leveled a MAGE (SOLO) to level 30 after hearing how difficult they are to keep alive. The ONLY deaths I had with that troop was when the server knocked me off line and I logged back on DEAD. HATE IT when that happens. Properly played (is that the key that so many haven't figured out yet?) a Mage is a DEVESTATING SOLO class. Taking out three or four mobs IN YOUR FACE at the same time is not much of a problem. LEARN HOW TO PLAY THE CLASS - whatever class that is.
The whole concept of PVP and Faction vs Faction in WOW is rediculous. A VERY nasty OUTSIDE force is trying to take over the world and the two groups that are fighting the SCOURGE are fighting each other too. If I was running the Scourge I would just pull back until the Horde and the Alliance had totally devastated each other and just walk in and MOP UP the remainder. HOW MANY other games have this concept?
I think people are STILL not getting the point. First of all - I am PAYING to play this game. If someone wants me to play the game THEIR way THEY CAN PAY MY FEES and I WILL consider playing it their way. I DO NOT play WOW as a job. I play for recreation - so I play when I want - how I want. I do not want some whiner sobbing "Oh no one wants to play with me - so make the rules FORCE them to." The day that happens I'm outa here. They can play by (with) themselves. Not everyone is interested in getting to the max level as fast as possible. As I mentioned I HAVE NO TWINKS. Everything my troops have (on both accounts) they have looted from monsters or earned by "Farming" or by playing the AH. I have been playing WOW for three years now and my Highest level troop STILL does not qualify for me to make a DK. On the other hand - most of my troops have 100 gold by the time they are level 10 - and they do not have to beg for gold to buy things. I DO not do arenas - PVP - DUEL or any of that other BS. With 10,000 monsters built into the game it will be a LONG time before I fight them all - Why waste time fighting each other? I like WOW because it gives me a MASSIVE world to play in - Not because some people think it is ONLY for players(?) to GROUP in. As far as interaction is concerned I DO interact. I will trade with other players that have something to sell that I need , or I will sell them something if I have what THEY need. I do not have to LIVE with them When I play a class I want to learn ALL of the capabilities AND limitations of that class. I just leveled a MAGE (SOLO) to level 30 after hearing how difficult they are to keep alive. The ONLY deaths I had with that troop was when the server knocked me off line and I logged back on DEAD. HATE IT when that happens. Properly played (is that the key that so many haven't figured out yet?) a Mage is a DEVESTATING SOLO class. Taking out three or four mobs IN YOUR FACE at the same time is not much of a problem. LEARN HOW TO PLAY THE CLASS - whatever class that is. The whole concept of PVP and Faction vs Faction in WOW is rediculous. A VERY nasty OUTSIDE force is trying to take over the world and the two groups that are fighting the SCOURGE are fighting each other too. If I was running the Scourge I would just pull back until the Horde and the Alliance had totally devastated each other and just walk in and MOP UP the remainder. HOW MANY other games have this concept?
Thats what has always amused me as well. The entire world is in danger, and the clowns in charge on both sides are still at each others throats. But thats the price one pays for pandering to the PvP types. Personally, I have two 80's(Pally(protect spec), Death Knight(unholy)) a 71 warrior(protect spec), a 70 rogue(sub), and some 60's. I'm currently on vacation from WoW. I'll likely go back and run my warrior and rogue up to 80 before the expansion comes out.
I spend most of my time alone as well. I lack the time/focus for raiding, PvP these days. WoW is a good game up to level cap. Then its mostly raiding and/or PvP. I'm not really interested in either hamster wheel, so I make do with crafted weapons and armor from the AH and what I can solo in various dallies in Northrend. Once in a great while my guild needs an extra for a raid or some such. Its a hobby to me, not a second job or an obsession. To each their own.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp And I won't play a game that's solo friendly pre-raid because the grouping part of the game, which I enjoy, sucks. that's why developers should make different games for different types of players to capture different segments of the market. Some people want FFA PvP, some people like P2P some like F2P, and so on. There's no problem that you want a solo friendly game. Developers should make them to cater to players like you.
Difference is, you can still group in solo friendly games, so your preferred playstyle is still doable
you can also go unarmed in most games as a melee character, or fight with a caster using only Melee attacks. just because its doable, doesn't mean its rewarding enough to do so. and thats the problem with grouping in games right now. sure I could go group in WoW, yet its not worth it in the least bit. Same with WAR, AOC and Aion. a good example of this is in Aion ...
I can kill a level 30 elite mob with a full group of 6 in which it takes about a minute and a half to kill and get about 23k exp. SOLO i can kill a level 30 mob in about 20-30 seconds and get 12k xp.
you do the math.
but i do believe soloers and groupers can coexist. EQ2 did this wonderfully, overland zones were considered solo zones and dungeons were group based zones.
If you can fight with no weapons as a melee character and use weapon attacks and no spells and still do a quest, that does rather put paid to how awesomely difficult soloing is meant to be.
People in game often ask me how come I have so much money? One reason is that I never buy any armour, weapons or potions. You don’t need to, soloing is so easy you can get by on grey drops. I do know in some games where the like of potions are a must, but mostly it is so easy soloing you could do it in your sleep.
But to be clear I adovacte a rebalance, man cannot exist by grouping alone.
If you can fight with no weapons as a melee character and use weapon attacks and no spells and still do a quest, that does rather put paid to how awesomely difficult soloing is meant to be. People in game often ask me how come I have so much money? One reason is that I never buy any armour, weapons or potions. You don’t need to, soloing is so easy you can get by on grey drops. I do know in some games the like of potions are a must, but mostly it is so easy soloing you could do it in your sleep. But to be clear I adovacte a rebalance, man cannot exist by grouping alone.
LOL that's a good point never thought of it that way.
Comments
It worked at first when there were enough lowbies that anyone could get a group to do them. The problem with that game and with any other lower level MMO group content, is that after a while, there aren't enough lowbies to do the content, and people can't progress, get frustrated, and quit.
I played DAoC and had no trouble soloing, which is good considering some classes never got groups and some were kinda hard to solo with, but I'm not sure I would classify DAoC as a group oriented game when it came to leveling. You could always find camps of equal level mobs you could solo. I never played EQ, but I'll take peoples' word for it that you really couldn't solo past early levels in that game.
Here's one idea: your main has access to a top-end gear set the pieces of which are earned by leveling up alts. One piece for each alt.
There are other ways of doing it, but I think tying end game progression to leveling alts would work very well. Wouldn't it be nice to deck out your main in top gear without having to grind instances?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
How does a game make you group to level?
All you (the devs) have to do is stop dividing xp by the number of players and make all quest items go to every member when the drop. That alone would greatly increase grouping.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
By making all the content not soloable.
Difference is, you can still group in solo friendly games, so your preferred playstyle is still doable...the reverse is rarely true. I generally like grouping, problem is that it's usually more hassle than it's worth, at least to level.
Of course end game should be group dependent. The problem with group dependent leveling is after the first couple months, there aren't a ton of lower levels running around to group with. When WAR first launched, the "public quests" were great because there were no shortage of people your level to do them with. After a short time, you were SOL.
you can solo in ALL good grouping games, you just dont' make progress as fast as groupers.
This is true in EQ nad DAoC both good grouping games.
So YOUR playstyle is still doable, you can still solo.
Solo friendly games don't stop you from grouping, true, but group friendly games dont' stop you from soloing either.
I disagree that your statement is correct, that ONLY solo friendly games allow both play styles. It's simply a false statement.
IMO, the Pubic Quest idea sounds great on paper, but after playing WAR I thought in practice it sucked.
Not all grouping games. Did you ever try soloing some of the dungeons in Dungeons and Dragons at the original launch? They where not designed for that. In fact, I'd say that with in a given level range, they could not be solo'ed successfully. Which is just one of the reasons that DDO had the subscriber problems that it did.
I played the DDO beta. I didn't find soloing to be a problem. You know it had easy, medium, and hard versions of all the dungeons right?
You could usually do the easy versions solo. maybe not all at once, you might have to gear up and level up, but you could certainly do them.
I don't think lack of solo content had anything to do with the failure of DDO.
It was that everything was instanced and the lack of an open world. Didn't feel like an MMORPG, felt like Diablo witha subscription fee.
It worked at first when there were enough lowbies that anyone could get a group to do them. The problem with that game and with any other lower level MMO group content, is that after a while, there aren't enough lowbies to do the content, and people can't progress, get frustrated, and quit.
I played DAoC and had no trouble soloing, which is good considering some classes never got groups and some were kinda hard to solo with, but I'm not sure I would classify DAoC as a group oriented game when it came to leveling. You could always find camps of equal level mobs you could solo. I never played EQ, but I'll take peoples' word for it that you really couldn't solo past early levels in that game.
Actually in EQ, I could solo with various classes late into the game np. It was just better to group. Easier, faster experience. Also with daoc, I've soloed a few to 50, but had faster and safer experience with a group doing gobs in lyonese. Of course later in the game's life, it was easier to just exp in BGs solo on mobs or grouped fighting people, hehe.
I think even ffxi you could solo with a certain combo (didn't play much), but that was way more of a grouping game than even EQ.
Diversity is key to succes. You need group AND solo gameplay.
In any MMO that I played, I saw some players that expect others to be ready to help them at any moment. Instead of joining a guild or building a friendslist, they expect to PUG on demand through everything. When they dont get their group instantly, they start to bitch and moan and write posts like the OP.
Difference is, you can still group in solo friendly games, so your preferred playstyle is still doable...the reverse is rarely true. I generally like grouping, problem is that it's usually more hassle than it's worth, at least to level.
Of course end game should be group dependent. The problem with group dependent leveling is after the first couple months, there aren't a ton of lower levels running around to group with. When WAR first launched, the "public quests" were great because there were no shortage of people your level to do them with. After a short time, you were SOL.
you can solo in ALL good grouping games, you just dont' make progress as fast as groupers.
This is true in EQ nad DAoC both good grouping games.
So YOUR playstyle is still doable, you can still solo.
Solo friendly games don't stop you from grouping, true, but group friendly games dont' stop you from soloing either.
I disagree that your statement is correct, that ONLY solo friendly games allow both play styles. It's simply a false statement.
IMO, the Pubic Quest idea sounds great on paper, but after playing WAR I thought in practice it sucked.
Not all grouping games. Did you ever try soloing some of the dungeons in Dungeons and Dragons at the original launch? They where not designed for that. In fact, I'd say that with in a given level range, they could not be solo'ed successfully. Which is just one of the reasons that DDO had the subscriber problems that it did.
I played the DDO beta. I didn't find soloing to be a problem. You know it had easy, medium, and hard versions of all the dungeons right?
You could usually do the easy versions solo. maybe not all at once, you might have to gear up and level up, but you could certainly do them.
I don't think lack of solo content had anything to do with the failure of DDO.
It was that everything was instanced and the lack of an open world. Didn't feel like an MMORPG, felt like Diablo witha subscription fee.
I'm speaking of the *original launch* not the current version. I can't get the current version to run on my system. I keep getting a BSOD 116 error(conflict with one of Nvidia's driver sub systems). There is no way in hell that anyone within a level range of a dungeon could solo it, in the original version.
I think people are STILL not getting the point.
First of all - I am PAYING to play this game. If someone wants me to play the game THEIR way THEY CAN PAY MY FEES and I WILL consider playing it their way.
I DO NOT play WOW as a job. I play for recreation - so I play when I want - how I want. I do not want some whiner sobbing "Oh no one wants to play with me - so make the rules FORCE them to." The day that happens I'm outa here. They can play by (with) themselves.
Not everyone is interested in getting to the max level as fast as possible. As I mentioned I HAVE NO TWINKS. Everything my troops have (on both accounts) they have looted from monsters or earned by "Farming" or by playing the AH. I have been playing WOW for three years now and my Highest level troop STILL does not qualify for me to make a DK. On the other hand - most of my troops have 100 gold by the time they are level 10 - and they do not have to beg for gold to buy things.
I DO not do arenas - PVP - DUEL or any of that other BS. With 10,000 monsters built into the game it will be a LONG time before I fight them all - Why waste time fighting each other?
I like WOW because it gives me a MASSIVE world to play in - Not because some people think it is ONLY for players(?) to GROUP in. As far as interaction is concerned I DO interact. I will trade with other players that have something to sell that I need , or I will sell them something if I have what THEY need. I do not have to LIVE with them
When I play a class I want to learn ALL of the capabilities AND limitations of that class. I just leveled a MAGE (SOLO) to level 30 after hearing how difficult they are to keep alive. The ONLY deaths I had with that troop was when the server knocked me off line and I logged back on DEAD. HATE IT when that happens. Properly played (is that the key that so many haven't figured out yet?) a Mage is a DEVESTATING SOLO class. Taking out three or four mobs IN YOUR FACE at the same time is not much of a problem. LEARN HOW TO PLAY THE CLASS - whatever class that is.
The whole concept of PVP and Faction vs Faction in WOW is rediculous. A VERY nasty OUTSIDE force is trying to take over the world and the two groups that are fighting the SCOURGE are fighting each other too. If I was running the Scourge I would just pull back until the Horde and the Alliance had totally devastated each other and just walk in and MOP UP the remainder. HOW MANY other games have this concept?
Thats what has always amused me as well. The entire world is in danger, and the clowns in charge on both sides are still at each others throats. But thats the price one pays for pandering to the PvP types. Personally, I have two 80's(Pally(protect spec), Death Knight(unholy)) a 71 warrior(protect spec), a 70 rogue(sub), and some 60's. I'm currently on vacation from WoW. I'll likely go back and run my warrior and rogue up to 80 before the expansion comes out.
I spend most of my time alone as well. I lack the time/focus for raiding, PvP these days. WoW is a good game up to level cap. Then its mostly raiding and/or PvP. I'm not really interested in either hamster wheel, so I make do with crafted weapons and armor from the AH and what I can solo in various dallies in Northrend. Once in a great while my guild needs an extra for a raid or some such. Its a hobby to me, not a second job or an obsession. To each their own.
Difference is, you can still group in solo friendly games, so your preferred playstyle is still doable
you can also go unarmed in most games as a melee character, or fight with a caster using only Melee attacks. just because its doable, doesn't mean its rewarding enough to do so. and thats the problem with grouping in games right now. sure I could go group in WoW, yet its not worth it in the least bit. Same with WAR, AOC and Aion. a good example of this is in Aion ...
I can kill a level 30 elite mob with a full group of 6 in which it takes about a minute and a half to kill and get about 23k exp. SOLO i can kill a level 30 mob in about 20-30 seconds and get 12k xp.
you do the math.
but i do believe soloers and groupers can coexist. EQ2 did this wonderfully, overland zones were considered solo zones and dungeons were group based zones.
If you can fight with no weapons as a melee character and use weapon attacks and no spells and still do a quest, that does rather put paid to how awesomely difficult soloing is meant to be.
People in game often ask me how come I have so much money? One reason is that I never buy any armour, weapons or potions. You don’t need to, soloing is so easy you can get by on grey drops. I do know in some games where the like of potions are a must, but mostly it is so easy soloing you could do it in your sleep.
But to be clear I adovacte a rebalance, man cannot exist by grouping alone.
LOL that's a good point never thought of it that way.