Well OP, I don't condone your efforts to promote how companies should make THEIR mmorpg. Let's look at the land scape. How are the pure sanbox games doing as a whole? What do their concurrent subscriber numbers look like? The same can be said about a pure PVE genre as a whole. How do their numbers look? Now let's look at a mixed genre and see how games look if they cater to PvPers, Groupers, and PvPers. Are you getting the point yet? These companies make games to turn a profit. If they determine the best way for them to turn their own profit is to ensure there game is a pure sand box, great! Pure PvE, great! Mixture, great! Point is, the financial success of their game will depend on their choice. Just don't go blaming others because you game sucks and is void of players because people chose to play a game that offers more variety.
Variety = good solo game.
If you can solo the content or group and both are equally effective, then it's a solo game.
You're basically saying, give me a solo game and screw people that like to group. I don't mind ruining their content, and if they dont' like it they can solo. BUT., I'll say the game has "variety" and they should be happy with that because they can form a group if they want to.
Groupers don't want to form a group for no reason, they want to form a group to overcome a challenge.
What is your point? WoW has the best variety out there and soloers can't get best endgame stuff without grouping. Your point is moot. Otherwise you are are screw solo players, grouping is the only way to play. We both pay the same $15 a month to play, so why can't we each play our own way and be happy? FFS, I don't see solo players running around WoW with the latest T10 gear. You only get it from grouping.
So the solution is simply to design the game without T10 gear.
No T10 gear...no complaints...everyone can solo or group as they like.
Just luike a Sandbox game.
Solution is really easy..you do not have to go far and analyse profit margins, projections etc etc and all that bull.
You just have to make a fun game that people of all styles can and enjoy to play.
A game where people can set their own Goals and own Achievements and therefore own rewards...lets not forget most of the people in this thread are younger generation of MMORPGers, that are used to be rewarded for doing anything in a game, so rewards have to be in any future MMORPG..it is the way of delivery that can change however.
Instead of implementing the Carrot and the stick approach...a more open way can be in place so that the player rewards their own selves through own actions and undertaking in the Fantasy World.
This would mean that you could potentially get the same reward Solo or with a Group, and the only thing that could be different is the time it could take since, a group always has inherently an advantage...two heads are better than one and three better than two.
But all solo style or not would have access to the same rewards since the player defines what the rewards are.
That just won't work because of the weak minded groupers who will not be satisfied if a solo player can accomplish the same things they can.
Or to phrase it another way, the solo player will never be satisfied if the grouper has a challenging game to play, because they can't do the same thing solo.
In other words, both players are looking for a game they find fun, and if you design it to be fun for one, it wrecks the design for the other.
Just two sides of the same coin. Your argument is simply, why can't the grouper just play a solo game and be happy?
Why can't the solo player just play a "forced grouping" game and be happy?
Turning a game into a solo friendly game is not adding "choice" for both players, it's just making it a solo friendly game, which means by definition not a good grouping game.
Groupers want a challenging grouping game, not a solo game that let's them group.
Soloers are just fine with a game designed to allow for both types of gameplay. It's only the groupers that I see talking about doing away with the type of play soloers prefer.
A game that merely allows grouping is a solo game.
Are you suggesting that only children want good grouping games, and grown ups prefer to solo? I think it would be the other way around if anything, since coordination and cooperation require a certain degree of maturity, and solo actions require none.
Keep in mind that it requires a certain level of maturity to recognize that.
Most grownups have realized that they don't need mommy to force other people to play with them... and they've learned the value in doing some things on your own... not to mention the value of personal choice and, ultimately, responsibility.
Nobody wants you to group with them. I don't, and I don't think any of the forum users here do either.
Seriously. Do not want you to group with me. Not ever. Not in any game.
Nobody "forces" people to play baseball instead of tennis.
Baseball is a group sport. Tennis is a solo sport. Nobody is kidnapping people and making them play baseball instead of tennis. Nobody wants to make you play a good grouping game instead of a good solo game.
Play a solo friendly game like WoW. I"im find with that.
Why dont' you want to let me play a good grouping game?
Because I care about your ultimate happiness, and I see that you are suffering from your own thinking. Google "Thinking Errors" and do some reading. It's time that you realized that you are the architect of your own unhappiness.
Well OP, I don't condone your efforts to promote how companies should make THEIR mmorpg. Let's look at the land scape. How are the pure sanbox games doing as a whole? What do their concurrent subscriber numbers look like? The same can be said about a pure PVE genre as a whole. How do their numbers look? Now let's look at a mixed genre and see how games look if they cater to PvPers, Groupers, and PvPers. Are you getting the point yet? These companies make games to turn a profit. If they determine the best way for them to turn their own profit is to ensure there game is a pure sand box, great! Pure PvE, great! Mixture, great! Point is, the financial success of their game will depend on their choice. Just don't go blaming others because you game sucks and is void of players because people chose to play a game that offers more variety.
Variety = good solo game.
If you can solo the content or group and both are equally effective, then it's a solo game.
You're basically saying, give me a solo game and screw people that like to group. I don't mind ruining their content, and if they dont' like it they can solo. BUT., I'll say the game has "variety" and they should be happy with that because they can form a group if they want to.
Groupers don't want to form a group for no reason, they want to form a group to overcome a challenge.
What is your point? WoW has the best variety out there and soloers can't get best endgame stuff without grouping. Your point is moot. Otherwise you are are screw solo players, grouping is the only way to play. We both pay the same $15 a month to play, so why can't we each play our own way and be happy? FFS, I don't see solo players running around WoW with the latest T10 gear. You only get it from grouping.
So the solution is simply to design the game without T10 gear.
No T10 gear...no complaints...everyone can solo or group as they like.
Just luike a Sandbox game.
Solution is really easy..you do not have to go far and analyse profit margins, projections etc etc and all that bull.
You just have to make a fun game that people of all styles can and enjoy to play.
A game where people can set their own Goals and own Achievements and therefore own rewards...lets not forget most of the people in this thread are younger generation of MMORPGers, that are used to be rewarded for doing anything in a game, so rewards have to be in any future MMORPG..it is the way of delivery that can change however.
Instead of implementing the Carrot and the stick approach...a more open way can be in place so that the player rewards their own selves through own actions and undertaking in the Fantasy World.
This would mean that you could potentially get the same reward Solo or with a Group, and the only thing that could be different is the time it could take since, a group always has inherently an advantage...two heads are better than one and three better than two.
But all solo style or not would have access to the same rewards since the player defines what the rewards are.
That just won't work because of the weak minded groupers who will not be satisfied if a solo player can accomplish the same things they can.
Or to phrase it another way, the solo player will never be satisfied if the grouper has a challenging game to play, because they can't do the same thing solo.
In other words, both players are looking for a game they find fun, and if you design it to be fun for one, it wrecks the design for the other.
Just two sides of the same coin. Your argument is simply, why can't the grouper just play a solo game and be happy?
Why can't the solo player just play a "forced grouping" game and be happy?
Turning a game into a solo friendly game is not adding "choice" for both players, it's just making it a solo friendly game, which means by definition not a good grouping game.
Groupers want a challenging grouping game, not a solo game that let's them group.
Soloers are just fine with a game designed to allow for both types of gameplay. It's only the groupers that I see talking about doing away with the type of play soloers prefer.
A game that merely allows grouping is a solo game.
So solo players are fine with solo games.
gee, never would have figured that. Amazing.
Right, you'll only play a game that forces people to play with you. Got it. Next subject please.
Well OP, I don't condone your efforts to promote how companies should make THEIR mmorpg. Let's look at the land scape. How are the pure sanbox games doing as a whole? What do their concurrent subscriber numbers look like? The same can be said about a pure PVE genre as a whole. How do their numbers look? Now let's look at a mixed genre and see how games look if they cater to PvPers, Groupers, and PvPers. Are you getting the point yet? These companies make games to turn a profit. If they determine the best way for them to turn their own profit is to ensure there game is a pure sand box, great! Pure PvE, great! Mixture, great! Point is, the financial success of their game will depend on their choice. Just don't go blaming others because you game sucks and is void of players because people chose to play a game that offers more variety.
Variety = good solo game.
If you can solo the content or group and both are equally effective, then it's a solo game.
You're basically saying, give me a solo game and screw people that like to group. I don't mind ruining their content, and if they dont' like it they can solo. BUT., I'll say the game has "variety" and they should be happy with that because they can form a group if they want to.
Groupers don't want to form a group for no reason, they want to form a group to overcome a challenge.
What is your point? WoW has the best variety out there and soloers can't get best endgame stuff without grouping. Your point is moot. Otherwise you are are screw solo players, grouping is the only way to play. We both pay the same $15 a month to play, so why can't we each play our own way and be happy? FFS, I don't see solo players running around WoW with the latest T10 gear. You only get it from grouping.
So the solution is simply to design the game without T10 gear.
No T10 gear...no complaints...everyone can solo or group as they like.
Just luike a Sandbox game.
Solution is really easy..you do not have to go far and analyse profit margins, projections etc etc and all that bull.
You just have to make a fun game that people of all styles can and enjoy to play.
A game where people can set their own Goals and own Achievements and therefore own rewards...lets not forget most of the people in this thread are younger generation of MMORPGers, that are used to be rewarded for doing anything in a game, so rewards have to be in any future MMORPG..it is the way of delivery that can change however.
Instead of implementing the Carrot and the stick approach...a more open way can be in place so that the player rewards their own selves through own actions and undertaking in the Fantasy World.
This would mean that you could potentially get the same reward Solo or with a Group, and the only thing that could be different is the time it could take since, a group always has inherently an advantage...two heads are better than one and three better than two.
But all solo style or not would have access to the same rewards since the player defines what the rewards are.
That just won't work because of the weak minded groupers who will not be satisfied if a solo player can accomplish the same things they can.
Or to phrase it another way, the solo player will never be satisfied if the grouper has a challenging game to play, because they can't do the same thing solo.
In other words, both players are looking for a game they find fun, and if you design it to be fun for one, it wrecks the design for the other.
Just two sides of the same coin. Your argument is simply, why can't the grouper just play a solo game and be happy?
Why can't the solo player just play a "forced grouping" game and be happy?
Turning a game into a solo friendly game is not adding "choice" for both players, it's just making it a solo friendly game, which means by definition not a good grouping game.
Groupers want a challenging grouping game, not a solo game that let's them group.
Soloers are just fine with a game designed to allow for both types of gameplay. It's only the groupers that I see talking about doing away with the type of play soloers prefer.
A game that merely allows grouping is a solo game.
So solo players are fine with solo games.
gee, never would have figured that. Amazing.
Right, you'll only play a game that forces people to play with you. Got it. Next subject please.
I dont' want you to group with me. Seriously. I don't.
Isn't it just easier to just discount anyone who says, "I want to solo in a MMO and get EVERYTHING"? Yup!. These people don't matter. Its just like those who say, "I don't want people to be able to solo at all." They don't matter either. The only ones that matter are those who understand that theres a place for both styles and they can happily coexist in the same game...since its been going on since 2004=)
Well OP, I don't condone your efforts to promote how companies should make THEIR mmorpg. Let's look at the land scape. How are the pure sanbox games doing as a whole? What do their concurrent subscriber numbers look like? The same can be said about a pure PVE genre as a whole. How do their numbers look? Now let's look at a mixed genre and see how games look if they cater to PvPers, Groupers, and PvPers. Are you getting the point yet? These companies make games to turn a profit. If they determine the best way for them to turn their own profit is to ensure there game is a pure sand box, great! Pure PvE, great! Mixture, great! Point is, the financial success of their game will depend on their choice. Just don't go blaming others because you game sucks and is void of players because people chose to play a game that offers more variety.
Variety = good solo game.
If you can solo the content or group and both are equally effective, then it's a solo game.
You're basically saying, give me a solo game and screw people that like to group. I don't mind ruining their content, and if they dont' like it they can solo. BUT., I'll say the game has "variety" and they should be happy with that because they can form a group if they want to.
Groupers don't want to form a group for no reason, they want to form a group to overcome a challenge.
What is your point? WoW has the best variety out there and soloers can't get best endgame stuff without grouping. Your point is moot. Otherwise you are are screw solo players, grouping is the only way to play. We both pay the same $15 a month to play, so why can't we each play our own way and be happy? FFS, I don't see solo players running around WoW with the latest T10 gear. You only get it from grouping.
So the solution is simply to design the game without T10 gear.
No T10 gear...no complaints...everyone can solo or group as they like.
Just luike a Sandbox game.
Solution is really easy..you do not have to go far and analyse profit margins, projections etc etc and all that bull.
You just have to make a fun game that people of all styles can and enjoy to play.
A game where people can set their own Goals and own Achievements and therefore own rewards...lets not forget most of the people in this thread are younger generation of MMORPGers, that are used to be rewarded for doing anything in a game, so rewards have to be in any future MMORPG..it is the way of delivery that can change however.
Instead of implementing the Carrot and the stick approach...a more open way can be in place so that the player rewards their own selves through own actions and undertaking in the Fantasy World.
This would mean that you could potentially get the same reward Solo or with a Group, and the only thing that could be different is the time it could take since, a group always has inherently an advantage...two heads are better than one and three better than two.
But all solo style or not would have access to the same rewards since the player defines what the rewards are.
That just won't work because of the weak minded groupers who will not be satisfied if a solo player can accomplish the same things they can.
Or to phrase it another way, the solo player will never be satisfied if the grouper has a challenging game to play, because they can't do the same thing solo.
In other words, both players are looking for a game they find fun, and if you design it to be fun for one, it wrecks the design for the other.
Just two sides of the same coin. Your argument is simply, why can't the grouper just play a solo game and be happy?
Why can't the solo player just play a "forced grouping" game and be happy?
Turning a game into a solo friendly game is not adding "choice" for both players, it's just making it a solo friendly game, which means by definition not a good grouping game.
Groupers want a challenging grouping game, not a solo game that let's them group.
Soloers are just fine with a game designed to allow for both types of gameplay. It's only the groupers that I see talking about doing away with the type of play soloers prefer.
A game that merely allows grouping is a solo game.
So solo players are fine with solo games.
gee, never would have figured that. Amazing.
Right, you'll only play a game that forces people to play with you. Got it. Next subject please.
I dont' want you to group with me. Seriously. I don't.
lol was that suppose to hurt me feelings? Ur adorable, really.
Isn't it just easier to just discount anyone who says, "I want to solo in a MMO and get EVERYTHING"? Yup!. These people don't matter. Its just like those who say, "I don't want people to be able to solo at all." They don't matter either. The only ones that matter are those who understand that theres a place for both styles and they can happily coexist in the same game...since its been going on since 2004=)
HELL YA! WoW proved that it doesn't matter if you want to PvP, Solo, Group, or Raid... one game can do a pretty decent job of cater to everyone.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
Who says you can't group all the way to 80 in WoW or most games like it? If you can't, you are playing in the WRONG guild. Matter of fact, I have seven level 80s and five of them went all the way 95% grouping. The other two I didn't group at all until I hit 80. If, and thati's a big if I log back in, my next adventure is going to be leveling to 60 with a toon solo and then PvPing my way to level cap. See, more grouping in WoW. The GROUPING is out there, you just have to go look for it in the right guild.
You can group for outdoor content in WoW, but the system punishes you for doing so.
More hassle + lesser reward = a disincentive to group.
I completely disagree. Over the course of a day of grouping, you will get far more xp and rewards grouping than soloing in level appropriate outdoor content simply from the fact that you'll be able to complete tons more quests in the same amount of time. Questing is where the XP is in WoW for outdoor content until you get to 60. 60-80 is a HELL of a lot faster PvPing than questing from what I've been told.
You are only counting combat time, which is unrealistic.
You are not taking into account coordination, organization, travel to meet up, waiting on someone that is link dead, waiting on people to take bio breaks, discussing where to go, which quest to do, compromising, letting someone go buy a piece of gear, and things like that.
Those things happen in a group, not in solo play. You acting as if people magically appear in a group, and don't have to talk or agree about anything, and instantly start killing mobs. Doesnt' happen. But you CAN do that solo, since the only one that has a say so in what to do, is you.
Now you are talking pugs or guildies that don't organize very well to get that four out of sync. If you don't plan your playing with your guildies, that isn't my fault. Of my seven 80s, five of them I grouped to max level. I did next to no soloing and had organized pre-mades so we'd doing everything together. What you are identifying can be solved with the 5 Ps. To explain that abreviated sentence, "Proper Planning Prevents Poor Performance". Scheduling breaks into your game time solo or otherwise is important. If people are running late, a lil' communication goes a long ways!
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
"MMO"RPG isn't about grouping, it's about socialization. Perfect example was the tunnle ouside of Freeport in EQ where players had to manually auction thier goods and players had to actually speak to the sellers.. Once they instituted the auction house, the game was ruined because now there was no need for people to socialize beyond raiding.
Most people playing MMOs would prefer to group - if it was practical and rewarding to do so. Most soloing is due to need, not preference.
Says who? You're just making a claim without a shred of evidence to back you up, and as we've seen in this thread, the majority of players do *NOT* want to group most of the time. Soloing in my case is 100% preference, as I suspect is the case with most players. When 98% of players, as the statistics posted earlier showed, preferred soloing, you've got no leg to stand on.
I agree. Most people on forums would prefer to group. The solo players dont 'need to be on a forum, they can go play one of the many solo friendly games that exist now.
They can play anything they damn well please. Most people on the forums don't prefer to group either and, as we all know, forum members are not indicative of the MMO market as a whole.
Are you suggesting that only children want good grouping games, and grown ups prefer to solo? I think it would be the other way around if anything, since coordination and cooperation require a certain degree of maturity, and solo actions require none.
Keep in mind that it requires a certain level of maturity to recognize that.
Most grownups have realized that they don't need mommy to force other people to play with them... and they've learned the value in doing some things on your own... not to mention the value of personal choice and, ultimately, responsibility.
Shhhh, don't confuse them with reality. It might hurt their little feelings.
Groupers just want a challenging MMO. One where it is hard to succeed, and easy to lose in all aspects of gameplay. When things are rough like that, people band together to overcome the challenge and survive.
You don't have to group to foster a community. It seems your post is actually about making in-game friends. Most groups I join are with people I have grouped with in the past or know from the real world. That does not stop me from socializing with others I do not know, nor does the fact that my main playing times are during non-peak hours.
But as I have said in the past, if you want to start paying my subs I will be glad to play the game however you want me to...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Groupers just want a challenging MMO. One where it is hard to succeed, and easy to lose in all aspects of gameplay. When things are rough like that, people band together to overcome the challenge and survive.
Meaning you ought to be playing solo because solo is *ALWAYS* more challenging, all things being equal. Soloers don't have the built-in support system that a group does. We just don't have to deal with all the obnoxious asshats in groups. Frustration and challenge are not the same.
Groupers just want a challenging MMO. One where it is hard to succeed, and easy to lose in all aspects of gameplay. When things are rough like that, people band together to overcome the challenge and survive.
Meaning you ought to be playing solo because solo is *ALWAYS* more challenging, all things being equal. Soloers don't have the built-in support system that a group does. We just don't have to deal with all the obnoxious asshats in groups. Frustration and challenge are not the same.
There may be some truth to that in the current MMO design philosophy. Remove in combat healing and tanking, and that won't ALWAYS be true.
Eitherway, soloing should always be a challenge, not a snoozefest. I, personally, don't mind soloing. I do it from time to time. Loved it on my Necro in EQ. Loved grouping on him even more. You make a difficult world where it is harder to solo than group, and you promote grouping, but you can still make it possible to solo, albeit not the end all means of advancement. Thats what I mean by challenge.
Most people playing MMOs would prefer to group - if it was practical and rewarding to do so. Most soloing is due to need, not preference.
Says who? You're just making a claim without a shred of evidence to back you up, and as we've seen in this thread, the majority of players do *NOT* want to group most of the time. Soloing in my case is 100% preference, as I suspect is the case with most players. When 98% of players, as the statistics posted earlier showed, preferred soloing, you've got no leg to stand on.
So stop making shit up and stick to the facts.
Come on, those are the best claims to make! You're really being unreasonable now...
Groupers just want a challenging MMO. One where it is hard to succeed, and easy to lose in all aspects of gameplay. When things are rough like that, people band together to overcome the challenge and survive.
Case and point.
Not all MMOs can be like this. Not all MMOs can be solo friendly.
There is a reason there is more than one game per genre, because different players of that genre have different tastes.
There may be some truth to that in the current MMO design philosophy. Remove in combat healing and tanking, and that won't ALWAYS be true. Eitherway, soloing should always be a challenge, not a snoozefest. I, personally, don't mind soloing. I do it from time to time. Loved it on my Necro in EQ. Loved grouping on him even more. You make a difficult world where it is harder to solo than group, and you promote grouping, but you can still make it possible to solo, albeit not the end all means of advancement. Thats what I mean by challenge.
Unfortunately, we can only deal with the games that exist, not the fantasy ones that we wish existed. Virtually all MMOs use the DD/tank/healer paradigm for groups. It promotes cookie-cutter character creation, every healer has to have a specific set of spells, every DD has to have a specific set of weapons, all of them need to be interchangable so that every tank you get for your team will be functionally identical to every other tank. That's about as boring as I can imagine, having to be that generic character type so you fit into any group dynamic. Exactly where is the challenge to that? Where's the individuality? Where's the fun? It's "insert tab A into slot B and my character is exactly like everyone else".
You can't really change games that are already out. I assume most people who want this or want that are referring to future games of the genre.
I like your interchangable parts, the assembly line comparison there. And you're absolutely right. There is no fun there. Hence why I argue for the removal of the Tank, DPS, Healer Paradigm at every corner. I believe then developers would be free to design a game where it is tactics and coordination that would win the day as opposed to who has the most mitigation, who has the most healing capacity and who has the most damage capacity.
Most people playing MMOs would prefer to group - if it was practical and rewarding to do so. Most soloing is due to need, not preference.
Says who? You're just making a claim without a shred of evidence to back you up, and as we've seen in this thread, the majority of players do *NOT* want to group most of the time. Soloing in my case is 100% preference, as I suspect is the case with most players. When 98% of players, as the statistics posted earlier showed, preferred soloing, you've got no leg to stand on.
So stop making shit up and stick to the facts.
Excuse me? You don't speak for me. I personally love grouping and highly prefer It to soloing, I only see soloing as a last resort kind of thing.
I find It insulting that you think you somehow ''speak'' for me and many other players.
You've been nothing but blindly tenacious against groupers and I hope you think a little before you post.
Most people playing MMOs would prefer to group - if it was practical and rewarding to do so. Most soloing is due to need, not preference.
Says who? You're just making a claim without a shred of evidence to back you up, and as we've seen in this thread, the majority of players do *NOT* want to group most of the time. Soloing in my case is 100% preference, as I suspect is the case with most players. When 98% of players, as the statistics posted earlier showed, preferred soloing, you've got no leg to stand on.
So stop making shit up and stick to the facts.
Excuse me? You don't speak for me. I personally love grouping and highly prefer It to soloing, I only see soloing as a last resort kind of thing.
I find It insulting that you think you somehow ''speak'' for me and many other players.
You've been nothing but blindly tenacious against groupers and I hope you think a little before you post.
Did you even read his post before you just opened up and started gushing forth your vinegar and water? "as we've seen in this thread, the majority of players"... He didn't propose to speak for all of the douchebags out there, he simple made a comment based upon what has happened so far in this thread, which you obviously didn't bother to read.
Most people playing MMOs would prefer to group - if it was practical and rewarding to do so. Most soloing is due to need, not preference.
Says who? You're just making a claim without a shred of evidence to back you up, and as we've seen in this thread, the majority of players do *NOT* want to group most of the time. Soloing in my case is 100% preference, as I suspect is the case with most players. When 98% of players, as the statistics posted earlier showed, preferred soloing, you've got no leg to stand on.
So stop making shit up and stick to the facts.
Excuse me? You don't speak for me. I personally love grouping and highly prefer It to soloing, I only see soloing as a last resort kind of thing.
I find It insulting that you think you somehow ''speak'' for me and many other players.
You've been nothing but blindly tenacious against groupers and I hope you think a little before you post.
Did you even read his post before you just opened up and started gushing forth your vinegar and water? "as we've seen in this thread, the majority of players"... He didn't propose to speak for all of the douchebags out there, he simple made a comment based upon what has happened so far in this thread, which you obviously didn't bother to read.
Actually I did read every word of his post.
Especially this : ''Soloing in my case is 100% preference, as I suspect is the case with most players. When 98% of players, as the statistics posted earlier showed, preferred soloing, you've got no leg to stand on.
So stop making shit up and stick to the facts.''
And no It didn't happen so far in this thread. Your just a blindly tenacious soloer who probably can't handle a group based game.
Comments
Variety = good solo game.
If you can solo the content or group and both are equally effective, then it's a solo game.
You're basically saying, give me a solo game and screw people that like to group. I don't mind ruining their content, and if they dont' like it they can solo. BUT., I'll say the game has "variety" and they should be happy with that because they can form a group if they want to.
Groupers don't want to form a group for no reason, they want to form a group to overcome a challenge.
What is your point? WoW has the best variety out there and soloers can't get best endgame stuff without grouping. Your point is moot. Otherwise you are are screw solo players, grouping is the only way to play. We both pay the same $15 a month to play, so why can't we each play our own way and be happy? FFS, I don't see solo players running around WoW with the latest T10 gear. You only get it from grouping.
So the solution is simply to design the game without T10 gear.
No T10 gear...no complaints...everyone can solo or group as they like.
Just luike a Sandbox game.
Solution is really easy..you do not have to go far and analyse profit margins, projections etc etc and all that bull.
You just have to make a fun game that people of all styles can and enjoy to play.
A game where people can set their own Goals and own Achievements and therefore own rewards...lets not forget most of the people in this thread are younger generation of MMORPGers, that are used to be rewarded for doing anything in a game, so rewards have to be in any future MMORPG..it is the way of delivery that can change however.
Instead of implementing the Carrot and the stick approach...a more open way can be in place so that the player rewards their own selves through own actions and undertaking in the Fantasy World.
This would mean that you could potentially get the same reward Solo or with a Group, and the only thing that could be different is the time it could take since, a group always has inherently an advantage...two heads are better than one and three better than two.
But all solo style or not would have access to the same rewards since the player defines what the rewards are.
That just won't work because of the weak minded groupers who will not be satisfied if a solo player can accomplish the same things they can.
Or to phrase it another way, the solo player will never be satisfied if the grouper has a challenging game to play, because they can't do the same thing solo.
In other words, both players are looking for a game they find fun, and if you design it to be fun for one, it wrecks the design for the other.
Just two sides of the same coin. Your argument is simply, why can't the grouper just play a solo game and be happy?
Why can't the solo player just play a "forced grouping" game and be happy?
Turning a game into a solo friendly game is not adding "choice" for both players, it's just making it a solo friendly game, which means by definition not a good grouping game.
Groupers want a challenging grouping game, not a solo game that let's them group.
Soloers are just fine with a game designed to allow for both types of gameplay. It's only the groupers that I see talking about doing away with the type of play soloers prefer.
A game that merely allows grouping is a solo game.
So solo players are fine with solo games.
gee, never would have figured that. Amazing.
Keep in mind that it requires a certain level of maturity to recognize that.
Most grownups have realized that they don't need mommy to force other people to play with them... and they've learned the value in doing some things on your own... not to mention the value of personal choice and, ultimately, responsibility.
Nobody wants you to group with them. I don't, and I don't think any of the forum users here do either.
Seriously. Do not want you to group with me. Not ever. Not in any game.
Nobody "forces" people to play baseball instead of tennis.
Baseball is a group sport. Tennis is a solo sport. Nobody is kidnapping people and making them play baseball instead of tennis. Nobody wants to make you play a good grouping game instead of a good solo game.
Play a solo friendly game like WoW. I"im find with that.
Why dont' you want to let me play a good grouping game?
Because I care about your ultimate happiness, and I see that you are suffering from your own thinking. Google "Thinking Errors" and do some reading. It's time that you realized that you are the architect of your own unhappiness.
Variety = good solo game.
If you can solo the content or group and both are equally effective, then it's a solo game.
You're basically saying, give me a solo game and screw people that like to group. I don't mind ruining their content, and if they dont' like it they can solo. BUT., I'll say the game has "variety" and they should be happy with that because they can form a group if they want to.
Groupers don't want to form a group for no reason, they want to form a group to overcome a challenge.
What is your point? WoW has the best variety out there and soloers can't get best endgame stuff without grouping. Your point is moot. Otherwise you are are screw solo players, grouping is the only way to play. We both pay the same $15 a month to play, so why can't we each play our own way and be happy? FFS, I don't see solo players running around WoW with the latest T10 gear. You only get it from grouping.
So the solution is simply to design the game without T10 gear.
No T10 gear...no complaints...everyone can solo or group as they like.
Just luike a Sandbox game.
Solution is really easy..you do not have to go far and analyse profit margins, projections etc etc and all that bull.
You just have to make a fun game that people of all styles can and enjoy to play.
A game where people can set their own Goals and own Achievements and therefore own rewards...lets not forget most of the people in this thread are younger generation of MMORPGers, that are used to be rewarded for doing anything in a game, so rewards have to be in any future MMORPG..it is the way of delivery that can change however.
Instead of implementing the Carrot and the stick approach...a more open way can be in place so that the player rewards their own selves through own actions and undertaking in the Fantasy World.
This would mean that you could potentially get the same reward Solo or with a Group, and the only thing that could be different is the time it could take since, a group always has inherently an advantage...two heads are better than one and three better than two.
But all solo style or not would have access to the same rewards since the player defines what the rewards are.
That just won't work because of the weak minded groupers who will not be satisfied if a solo player can accomplish the same things they can.
Or to phrase it another way, the solo player will never be satisfied if the grouper has a challenging game to play, because they can't do the same thing solo.
In other words, both players are looking for a game they find fun, and if you design it to be fun for one, it wrecks the design for the other.
Just two sides of the same coin. Your argument is simply, why can't the grouper just play a solo game and be happy?
Why can't the solo player just play a "forced grouping" game and be happy?
Turning a game into a solo friendly game is not adding "choice" for both players, it's just making it a solo friendly game, which means by definition not a good grouping game.
Groupers want a challenging grouping game, not a solo game that let's them group.
Soloers are just fine with a game designed to allow for both types of gameplay. It's only the groupers that I see talking about doing away with the type of play soloers prefer.
A game that merely allows grouping is a solo game.
So solo players are fine with solo games.
gee, never would have figured that. Amazing.
Right, you'll only play a game that forces people to play with you. Got it. Next subject please.
Variety = good solo game.
If you can solo the content or group and both are equally effective, then it's a solo game.
You're basically saying, give me a solo game and screw people that like to group. I don't mind ruining their content, and if they dont' like it they can solo. BUT., I'll say the game has "variety" and they should be happy with that because they can form a group if they want to.
Groupers don't want to form a group for no reason, they want to form a group to overcome a challenge.
What is your point? WoW has the best variety out there and soloers can't get best endgame stuff without grouping. Your point is moot. Otherwise you are are screw solo players, grouping is the only way to play. We both pay the same $15 a month to play, so why can't we each play our own way and be happy? FFS, I don't see solo players running around WoW with the latest T10 gear. You only get it from grouping.
So the solution is simply to design the game without T10 gear.
No T10 gear...no complaints...everyone can solo or group as they like.
Just luike a Sandbox game.
Solution is really easy..you do not have to go far and analyse profit margins, projections etc etc and all that bull.
You just have to make a fun game that people of all styles can and enjoy to play.
A game where people can set their own Goals and own Achievements and therefore own rewards...lets not forget most of the people in this thread are younger generation of MMORPGers, that are used to be rewarded for doing anything in a game, so rewards have to be in any future MMORPG..it is the way of delivery that can change however.
Instead of implementing the Carrot and the stick approach...a more open way can be in place so that the player rewards their own selves through own actions and undertaking in the Fantasy World.
This would mean that you could potentially get the same reward Solo or with a Group, and the only thing that could be different is the time it could take since, a group always has inherently an advantage...two heads are better than one and three better than two.
But all solo style or not would have access to the same rewards since the player defines what the rewards are.
That just won't work because of the weak minded groupers who will not be satisfied if a solo player can accomplish the same things they can.
Or to phrase it another way, the solo player will never be satisfied if the grouper has a challenging game to play, because they can't do the same thing solo.
In other words, both players are looking for a game they find fun, and if you design it to be fun for one, it wrecks the design for the other.
Just two sides of the same coin. Your argument is simply, why can't the grouper just play a solo game and be happy?
Why can't the solo player just play a "forced grouping" game and be happy?
Turning a game into a solo friendly game is not adding "choice" for both players, it's just making it a solo friendly game, which means by definition not a good grouping game.
Groupers want a challenging grouping game, not a solo game that let's them group.
Soloers are just fine with a game designed to allow for both types of gameplay. It's only the groupers that I see talking about doing away with the type of play soloers prefer.
A game that merely allows grouping is a solo game.
So solo players are fine with solo games.
gee, never would have figured that. Amazing.
Right, you'll only play a game that forces people to play with you. Got it. Next subject please.
I dont' want you to group with me. Seriously. I don't.
Say the same after sitting spamming "LFG" for half an hour.
You may be more forgiving then.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Isn't it just easier to just discount anyone who says, "I want to solo in a MMO and get EVERYTHING"? Yup!. These people don't matter. Its just like those who say, "I don't want people to be able to solo at all." They don't matter either. The only ones that matter are those who understand that theres a place for both styles and they can happily coexist in the same game...since its been going on since 2004=)
Variety = good solo game.
If you can solo the content or group and both are equally effective, then it's a solo game.
You're basically saying, give me a solo game and screw people that like to group. I don't mind ruining their content, and if they dont' like it they can solo. BUT., I'll say the game has "variety" and they should be happy with that because they can form a group if they want to.
Groupers don't want to form a group for no reason, they want to form a group to overcome a challenge.
What is your point? WoW has the best variety out there and soloers can't get best endgame stuff without grouping. Your point is moot. Otherwise you are are screw solo players, grouping is the only way to play. We both pay the same $15 a month to play, so why can't we each play our own way and be happy? FFS, I don't see solo players running around WoW with the latest T10 gear. You only get it from grouping.
So the solution is simply to design the game without T10 gear.
No T10 gear...no complaints...everyone can solo or group as they like.
Just luike a Sandbox game.
Solution is really easy..you do not have to go far and analyse profit margins, projections etc etc and all that bull.
You just have to make a fun game that people of all styles can and enjoy to play.
A game where people can set their own Goals and own Achievements and therefore own rewards...lets not forget most of the people in this thread are younger generation of MMORPGers, that are used to be rewarded for doing anything in a game, so rewards have to be in any future MMORPG..it is the way of delivery that can change however.
Instead of implementing the Carrot and the stick approach...a more open way can be in place so that the player rewards their own selves through own actions and undertaking in the Fantasy World.
This would mean that you could potentially get the same reward Solo or with a Group, and the only thing that could be different is the time it could take since, a group always has inherently an advantage...two heads are better than one and three better than two.
But all solo style or not would have access to the same rewards since the player defines what the rewards are.
That just won't work because of the weak minded groupers who will not be satisfied if a solo player can accomplish the same things they can.
Or to phrase it another way, the solo player will never be satisfied if the grouper has a challenging game to play, because they can't do the same thing solo.
In other words, both players are looking for a game they find fun, and if you design it to be fun for one, it wrecks the design for the other.
Just two sides of the same coin. Your argument is simply, why can't the grouper just play a solo game and be happy?
Why can't the solo player just play a "forced grouping" game and be happy?
Turning a game into a solo friendly game is not adding "choice" for both players, it's just making it a solo friendly game, which means by definition not a good grouping game.
Groupers want a challenging grouping game, not a solo game that let's them group.
Soloers are just fine with a game designed to allow for both types of gameplay. It's only the groupers that I see talking about doing away with the type of play soloers prefer.
A game that merely allows grouping is a solo game.
So solo players are fine with solo games.
gee, never would have figured that. Amazing.
Right, you'll only play a game that forces people to play with you. Got it. Next subject please.
I dont' want you to group with me. Seriously. I don't.
lol was that suppose to hurt me feelings? Ur adorable, really.
HELL YA! WoW proved that it doesn't matter if you want to PvP, Solo, Group, or Raid... one game can do a pretty decent job of cater to everyone.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
You can group for outdoor content in WoW, but the system punishes you for doing so.
More hassle + lesser reward = a disincentive to group.
I completely disagree. Over the course of a day of grouping, you will get far more xp and rewards grouping than soloing in level appropriate outdoor content simply from the fact that you'll be able to complete tons more quests in the same amount of time. Questing is where the XP is in WoW for outdoor content until you get to 60. 60-80 is a HELL of a lot faster PvPing than questing from what I've been told.
You are only counting combat time, which is unrealistic.
You are not taking into account coordination, organization, travel to meet up, waiting on someone that is link dead, waiting on people to take bio breaks, discussing where to go, which quest to do, compromising, letting someone go buy a piece of gear, and things like that.
Those things happen in a group, not in solo play. You acting as if people magically appear in a group, and don't have to talk or agree about anything, and instantly start killing mobs. Doesnt' happen. But you CAN do that solo, since the only one that has a say so in what to do, is you.
Now you are talking pugs or guildies that don't organize very well to get that four out of sync. If you don't plan your playing with your guildies, that isn't my fault. Of my seven 80s, five of them I grouped to max level. I did next to no soloing and had organized pre-mades so we'd doing everything together. What you are identifying can be solved with the 5 Ps. To explain that abreviated sentence, "Proper Planning Prevents Poor Performance". Scheduling breaks into your game time solo or otherwise is important. If people are running late, a lil' communication goes a long ways!
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
"MMO"RPG isn't about grouping, it's about socialization. Perfect example was the tunnle ouside of Freeport in EQ where players had to manually auction thier goods and players had to actually speak to the sellers.. Once they instituted the auction house, the game was ruined because now there was no need for people to socialize beyond raiding.
A tiny mind is a tidy mind...
Says who? You're just making a claim without a shred of evidence to back you up, and as we've seen in this thread, the majority of players do *NOT* want to group most of the time. Soloing in my case is 100% preference, as I suspect is the case with most players. When 98% of players, as the statistics posted earlier showed, preferred soloing, you've got no leg to stand on.
So stop making shit up and stick to the facts.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
They can play anything they damn well please. Most people on the forums don't prefer to group either and, as we all know, forum members are not indicative of the MMO market as a whole.
The majority of MMO players are soloers.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Keep in mind that it requires a certain level of maturity to recognize that.
Most grownups have realized that they don't need mommy to force other people to play with them... and they've learned the value in doing some things on your own... not to mention the value of personal choice and, ultimately, responsibility.
Shhhh, don't confuse them with reality. It might hurt their little feelings.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I do not condone your efforts to condone our efforts to promote soloing in a MMORPG>
Groupers just want a challenging MMO. One where it is hard to succeed, and easy to lose in all aspects of gameplay. When things are rough like that, people band together to overcome the challenge and survive.
You don't have to group to foster a community. It seems your post is actually about making in-game friends. Most groups I join are with people I have grouped with in the past or know from the real world. That does not stop me from socializing with others I do not know, nor does the fact that my main playing times are during non-peak hours.
But as I have said in the past, if you want to start paying my subs I will be glad to play the game however you want me to...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Meaning you ought to be playing solo because solo is *ALWAYS* more challenging, all things being equal. Soloers don't have the built-in support system that a group does. We just don't have to deal with all the obnoxious asshats in groups. Frustration and challenge are not the same.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Meaning you ought to be playing solo because solo is *ALWAYS* more challenging, all things being equal. Soloers don't have the built-in support system that a group does. We just don't have to deal with all the obnoxious asshats in groups. Frustration and challenge are not the same.
There may be some truth to that in the current MMO design philosophy. Remove in combat healing and tanking, and that won't ALWAYS be true.
Eitherway, soloing should always be a challenge, not a snoozefest. I, personally, don't mind soloing. I do it from time to time. Loved it on my Necro in EQ. Loved grouping on him even more. You make a difficult world where it is harder to solo than group, and you promote grouping, but you can still make it possible to solo, albeit not the end all means of advancement. Thats what I mean by challenge.
Says who? You're just making a claim without a shred of evidence to back you up, and as we've seen in this thread, the majority of players do *NOT* want to group most of the time. Soloing in my case is 100% preference, as I suspect is the case with most players. When 98% of players, as the statistics posted earlier showed, preferred soloing, you've got no leg to stand on.
So stop making shit up and stick to the facts.
Come on, those are the best claims to make! You're really being unreasonable now...
Case and point.
Not all MMOs can be like this. Not all MMOs can be solo friendly.
There is a reason there is more than one game per genre, because different players of that genre have different tastes.
Unfortunately, we can only deal with the games that exist, not the fantasy ones that we wish existed. Virtually all MMOs use the DD/tank/healer paradigm for groups. It promotes cookie-cutter character creation, every healer has to have a specific set of spells, every DD has to have a specific set of weapons, all of them need to be interchangable so that every tank you get for your team will be functionally identical to every other tank. That's about as boring as I can imagine, having to be that generic character type so you fit into any group dynamic. Exactly where is the challenge to that? Where's the individuality? Where's the fun? It's "insert tab A into slot B and my character is exactly like everyone else".
You find that entertaining or challenging?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
You can't really change games that are already out. I assume most people who want this or want that are referring to future games of the genre.
I like your interchangable parts, the assembly line comparison there. And you're absolutely right. There is no fun there. Hence why I argue for the removal of the Tank, DPS, Healer Paradigm at every corner. I believe then developers would be free to design a game where it is tactics and coordination that would win the day as opposed to who has the most mitigation, who has the most healing capacity and who has the most damage capacity.
Says who? You're just making a claim without a shred of evidence to back you up, and as we've seen in this thread, the majority of players do *NOT* want to group most of the time. Soloing in my case is 100% preference, as I suspect is the case with most players. When 98% of players, as the statistics posted earlier showed, preferred soloing, you've got no leg to stand on.
So stop making shit up and stick to the facts.
Excuse me? You don't speak for me. I personally love grouping and highly prefer It to soloing, I only see soloing as a last resort kind of thing.
I find It insulting that you think you somehow ''speak'' for me and many other players.
You've been nothing but blindly tenacious against groupers and I hope you think a little before you post.
Says who? You're just making a claim without a shred of evidence to back you up, and as we've seen in this thread, the majority of players do *NOT* want to group most of the time. Soloing in my case is 100% preference, as I suspect is the case with most players. When 98% of players, as the statistics posted earlier showed, preferred soloing, you've got no leg to stand on.
So stop making shit up and stick to the facts.
Excuse me? You don't speak for me. I personally love grouping and highly prefer It to soloing, I only see soloing as a last resort kind of thing.
I find It insulting that you think you somehow ''speak'' for me and many other players.
You've been nothing but blindly tenacious against groupers and I hope you think a little before you post.
Did you even read his post before you just opened up and started gushing forth your vinegar and water? "as we've seen in this thread, the majority of players"... He didn't propose to speak for all of the douchebags out there, he simple made a comment based upon what has happened so far in this thread, which you obviously didn't bother to read.
Says who? You're just making a claim without a shred of evidence to back you up, and as we've seen in this thread, the majority of players do *NOT* want to group most of the time. Soloing in my case is 100% preference, as I suspect is the case with most players. When 98% of players, as the statistics posted earlier showed, preferred soloing, you've got no leg to stand on.
So stop making shit up and stick to the facts.
Excuse me? You don't speak for me. I personally love grouping and highly prefer It to soloing, I only see soloing as a last resort kind of thing.
I find It insulting that you think you somehow ''speak'' for me and many other players.
You've been nothing but blindly tenacious against groupers and I hope you think a little before you post.
Did you even read his post before you just opened up and started gushing forth your vinegar and water? "as we've seen in this thread, the majority of players"... He didn't propose to speak for all of the douchebags out there, he simple made a comment based upon what has happened so far in this thread, which you obviously didn't bother to read.
Actually I did read every word of his post.
Especially this : ''Soloing in my case is 100% preference, as I suspect is the case with most players. When 98% of players, as the statistics posted earlier showed, preferred soloing, you've got no leg to stand on.
So stop making shit up and stick to the facts.''
And no It didn't happen so far in this thread. Your just a blindly tenacious soloer who probably can't handle a group based game.