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LF Sandbox-based, complex resources/building/crafting MMO.
First off, I've already tried games such as EvE Online, Wurm Online, LOTRO and Runescape which have these features, so please don't recommend these.
I'm looking for an MMO where you can build and craft a massive variety of items and buildings, with a friendly community and multiple player-made 'villages' or 'forts' etc.
PvE and PvP aren't so important but preferably an open PvP style (where you can kill and be killed anywhere). Please don't suggest a cuddly wuddly Korean anime game...
I've looked at Darkfall and MO, and they both pushed me away because of their terrible failures at release. (Yes MO had a big problem at release, leading to US people within the first 5 minutes of the shop opening getting a pre-order and beta, while the rest were left with a bugged shop being unable to buy even the DD version). Apparently Darkfall has improved so if you can persuade me that the community is mature and the crafting/building is great, go for it.
I don't care if the game is pay to play or free, as long as it's worth the price (I'm not paying $20 a month for a game, that's just dumb). I also don't care about the size of the community as long as there are more than 50 people actually playing.
The crafting side of the game should be immersive, I.E. not a 'buy ingredients from vendor, click 'Make all', wait for 2 minutes' style. Similar to Wurm Online's style of crafting, where you have many tools and you can use (or build your own) workshops to make items, with quality ratings etc.
As for building, again similar to Wurm Online where you can make buildings almost anywhere and using tools and materials, instead of 'go to instanced place, buy house, place some useless objects in predefined places'.
If Wurm Online wasn't so slow, deserted and had better graphics, I would be playing that.
I know this thread is probably pointless seeing as there are so few sandboxes out there, but I'm sure someone's bound to find an awesome niche MMO.
tl;dr: Go back and read the whole thing 
Unique upcoming indie space-based mining and combat game - Miner Wars.
http://www.minerwars.com/?aid=191
Comments
If u really want an extencive Crafting system in your game then i suggest looking at SWG, it probably has the most advanced crafting system at this point, u have quality rating for different aspects of the same resource, so the resourse that is fantastic for one item can be pointless for another item.
I'd say UO, but if graphics are an issue for you, I've got nothing.
The crafting system is incredibly complex. So many trade skills, harvesting skills, and endvours related to it (BoD system, runics, Heartwood Quests), it'd make your head spin.
The player housing is the best in any MMO bar none, although there are no offical "cities" or "forts", but guilds tend to go for plots of land close to one another and make them unofficial "Cities".
And if you find the right group of people, the community is amazing.
But, old, old 12-year-old systems that are amazingly more complex than anything out there. Graphics, even in the new client, are terrible, and some things older players have you will never get based on the account age.
I'd say give the free trial a go, but expect 0 hand holding, this is one of, if not the first successful MMO - You're going to have to try to learn things.
FYI, MO has not been released. It may be released early next year, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Just the work in progress beta is out for those who pre ordered.
As far as the game you want to see. There are many players, my-self included that would like this. It won't be any time soon though.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
I heard very well of both SWG and UO, but I also heard both games were killed by bad updates which dumbed down the game. I don't know, I'll have a look at them both, UO in particular. Although I'm not a huge fan of isometric games, I'll see how it plays out. Shame I didn't get to try these games in their 'glory days' as people say.
Unique upcoming indie space-based mining and combat game - Miner Wars.
http://www.minerwars.com/?aid=191
http://www.istaria.com/
Kind of sounds like what you are asking for.
Make games you want to play.
http://www.youtube.com/user/RavikAztar
While you don't have the ability to build cities or zones, Vanguard does have a pretty complex crafting system and you can build ships for water travel and player houses. And the game is completely open with no instances at all. It had a poor launch, but is now quite a good PVE game with solid races, classes, crafting, and diplomacy options. If you have a decent computer, you can crank up the graphics and they look very good for a game that is about 2.5 years old.
true about SWG, though crafting didnt get nearly as bad hit as Adventuring professions though, even though its a lof grinding on higher levels ( yes its lvl based nowdays ). but IMH it still the most complex system out there, complete with player crafted everything, including houses, to bad its on its last leg, less and less players are playing it as time goes. but other then that it fills most of your criteria for an MMO u want, it filled all before they made it lvl based.
I can't speak for SWG. H owever, in regards to UO, can't really say anything has been "dumbed down", but actually made more complex.
The key things you'll hear about in UO are the Trammel/Fel split, and Age of Shadows. Trammel/Fel was PvP related. Players who didn't like the open-pvp nature of the game. This doesn't sound like an issue to you.
However, Age of Shadows, a lot of people didn't like because it made the game more itemized. It used to be you had about 5 tiers of magic items with small variations. Supremely Accurate Katana of Vanquishing is an example - The accurate part determined it's chance to hit, and vanquishing determined how much damage, and there were armor equivilents. AoS actually made the game more like a modern MMO, in that it went from this simple nature to having a wide array of properties.
Crafting was important in that time, in that GM gear was great for most things, but AoS made the system infinitely more complex. This isn't necessarily a bad thing if you like crafting (As I do). Running BoDs, doing heartwood quests for recipies, crafting runics, and mastering all the skills that improve your primary crafting skill (to say nothing of harvesting skills) makes for a LOT to offer a crafter.
I essentially play WoW for fun, modern, go PvE or PvP that's smooth as silk and in 3D. I go to UO when I feel like crafting, creating a house, roleplaying, or socializing.
You're mileage may vary, of course.
Ravik: well it has a lot of items to build and u can custom make the item bonuses aswell, but there isnt any item quiality ratio or similar in Istaria, and the resources are not that many tbh, just a few for each tier for each profession and a lot of resources are the same for several professions. but yea.. player cities are there, even though its more plots on specific places.
edit: spelling
http://www.havenandhearth.com/portal/howto
Try that, It doesn't have a very large playerbase, but the world is pretty much created by players.
This game lets you start crafting baskets, and you will end up making city walls and houses.
It's 2D, runs in Java i believe.
What didn't you like about EVE industry?
check out fallen earth it has focus at crafting....
think now 90% is made by player i also heard player housing is comming in later patch.
The game you're looking for was Star Wars Galaxies, pre-cu. The game you want doesn't exist.
I can't speak for SWG. H owever, in regards to UO, can't really say anything has been "dumbed down", but actually made more complex.
The key things you'll hear about in UO are the Trammel/Fel split, and Age of Shadows. Trammel/Fel was PvP related. Players who didn't like the open-pvp nature of the game. This doesn't sound like an issue to you.
However, Age of Shadows, a lot of people didn't like because it made the game more itemized. It used to be you had about 5 tiers of magic items with small variations. Supremely Accurate Katana of Vanquishing is an example - The accurate part determined it's chance to hit, and vanquishing determined how much damage, and there were armor equivilents. AoS actually made the game more like a modern MMO, in that it went from this simple nature to having a wide array of properties.
Crafting was important in that time, in that GM gear was great for most things, but AoS made the system infinitely more complex. This isn't necessarily a bad thing if you like crafting (As I do). Running BoDs, doing heartwood quests for recipies, crafting runics, and mastering all the skills that improve your primary crafting skill (to say nothing of harvesting skills) makes for a LOT to offer a crafter.
I essentially play WoW for fun, modern, go PvE or PvP that's smooth as silk and in 3D. I go to UO when I feel like crafting, creating a house, roleplaying, or socializing.
You're mileage may vary, of course.
I cant say enough how much i like the UO crafting. It is immersive, detailed, fun, and interesting. I stayed in UO for many years and still say i love it.
I am trying Darkfall right now. Dont listen to the trolls who whine about releases. If you play then you are adding to the player base.....so play then. If you dont like it then leave, but to not play at all because of comments made from disaffected people who did not like it is not wise. Everyone is not the same so how can you decide what to play from a disappointed veiwpoint?
Try Darkfall - its the closest thing to UO i have found.
The only problem i had with UO was i could not stand the countless houses cluttering up the landscape. You cannot go anywhere without going around houses - that stand ready for their owners to resubscribe.
Well the observation I made concerning Darkfall and MO were from my own perspective, because I was excitedly watching both games, drawn in by the 'open ended sandbox open PvP massive crafting' MMO style. But in both cases I couldn't get into either beta or release because of some stupid circumstance involving the release. Many people saw the Darkfall release messup, and the community descended into hell. I must admit I even contributed to the trolling, I was pretty disappointed by both the release and the subsequent reviews of the game (I simply ignored the Eurogamer review though, it was biased and directly attacked the game) claiming Darkfall had a clunky UI, horrible PvP system and very slow skill gain.
Then I heard about Mortal Online, which seemed like a much more refined and down-to-earth version of Darkfall. This was about 6 or so months ago, before beta had started. Zoom forward to today and I nearly have as much a grudge against it as I did Darkfall, because people could get into the beta simply by getting a pre-order, combined with the pre-order shop (which people were calling release because it came with a 'free demo' AKA closed beta) completely breaking and resulting in only the massively dedicated from getting a pre-order.
Unique upcoming indie space-based mining and combat game - Miner Wars.
http://www.minerwars.com/?aid=191
Plus the community really got on my nerves. I don't know whether this was a bad experience alone on my part, but the first corporation (guild) I joined was full of your typical nerd stereotypes. Constantly spewing bad memes and insults on Vent, and when you're debating about something they read the first few words and start trolling over it. It was pathetic, although they were good at the game they were just assholes.
That pushed me to quit, because I assumed the entire community was this immature, and reviews I had read and 'promotion' videos from corps like GoonSwarm were the last nail in the coffin. Watching a Youtube video of a corp leader airhumping another overweight corp leader while he isn't looking is funny at best, patheticly immature at worst.
Unique upcoming indie space-based mining and combat game - Miner Wars.
http://www.minerwars.com/?aid=191
Plus the community really got on my nerves. I don't know whether this was a bad experience alone on my part, but the first corporation (guild) I joined was full of your typical nerd stereotypes. Constantly spewing bad memes and insults on Vent, and when you're debating about something they read the first few words and start trolling over it. It was pathetic, although they were good at the game they were just assholes.
That pushed me to quit, because I assumed the entire community was this immature, and reviews I had read and 'promotion' videos from corps like GoonSwarm were the last nail in the coffin. Watching a Youtube video of a corp leader airhumping another overweight corp leader while he isn't looking is funny at best, patheticly immature at worst.
Well, as open-world PvP was a requirement of yours, I feel I should point out to you that you're going to get that lack of maturity wherever you go. You either become an immature douche or you leave the game.
No, it wasn't just you. EvE and virtually all other open PvP games suffer from serious community issues. My experience with EvE was much like yours. I enjoyed it for a bit when I was playing solo and doing PvE content. But the PvE gets old very fast in that game since its just the same limited types of missions over and over. When I tried to get more involved in the game than that I found that most players either hide out in giant alliances to avoid griefers or become griefers themselves. Neither really makes for a fluid and trustworthy community so I moved on from that game.
As for Darkfall, it suffered the exact same fate as another open PvP game which was almost identical in design: Shadowbane. I suspect that Mortal Online will be the next game to continue in this tradition of failed PvP based games.
You may have heard that Darkfall is getting "better" now. This has about as much truth to it as the claim that AoC is "better" now. A few bug fixes and some clever PR does not fix a game which was flawed at its very core. Here is a great review of Darkfall which was written recently by a guy who played since beta and up until the review was posted. He says that the game still suffers from many of the same problems it always did with hackers, botters and exploiters still holding a massive advantage over everyone else and that there has been nothing done about this by the developers. This was a guy who was probably one of the biggest Darkfall fanboys there was during development and after release, but if even he can admit the problems the game has then it is clearly the truth.
The inherent problem with this game design is what I like to call the "If you build it they will come" syndrome. When you build a PvP based game where a major part of the game is killing other players and stealing/destroying everything they have, you attract players for whom the idea of killing people and stealing/destroying their stuff is attractive. That of course means assholes. You may attract other players as well but the assholes will outnumber them and eventually dirve them off leaving just the assholes to play the game by themselves. And a community full of assholes can only grief, back stab, lie to and cheat one another for so long before even they get tired of it and start looking for the next big thing, which is why you see so many of these people who claim to enjoy open PvP games constantly declaring how there is nothing good out right now and waiting for the next one. First they all waited for Shadowbane and when that game was crap they moved on to waiting for Darkfall. Now that game is crap and they are all waiting for Mortal Online. Mortal Online will meet the same fate and some other upstart developer with no clue how to run a game will announce a PvP based MMO so all the former MO players will go wait for that game. This type of game design will NEVER work. It will fail every time because the core concept behind a game like this is flawed.
The History of the Order of The Golden Shields
Try out Fallen Earth. The closest game I've found, to the old UO experience. Very good game.
I don't think Fallen Earth is exactly what he is looking for. He said:
"The crafting side of the game should be immersive, I.E. not a 'buy ingredients from vendor, click 'Make all', wait for 2 minutes' style."
Which describes Fallen Earth crafting almost exactly. Its very similar to EvE (which he said he didn't like) in that you just create a queue of items to craft and then log out while the game does the work. Seems like the kind of thing he is trying to avoid.
Plus he asked to be able to create buildings, which is not possible at all in Fallen Earth.
The History of the Order of The Golden Shields
http://www.atitd.com/
a tale in the dessert (IV) a game set in ancient egypt and the game is ALL about crafting/construction, researching, politics and other stuff like farming, breeding,etc. surprised no one mentioned this.
No, it wasn't just you. EvE and virtually all other open PvP games suffer from serious community issues. My experience with EvE was much like yours. I enjoyed it for a bit when I was playing solo and doing PvE content. But the PvE gets old very fast in that game since its just the same limited types of missions over and over. When I tried to get more involved in the game than that I found that most players either hide out in giant alliances to avoid griefers or become griefers themselves. Neither really makes for a fluid and trustworthy community so I moved on from that game.
As for Darkfall, it suffered the exact same fate as another open PvP game which was almost identical in design: Shadowbane. I suspect that Mortal Online will be the next game to continue in this tradition of failed PvP based games.
You may have heard that Darkfall is getting "better" now. This has about as much truth to it as the claim that AoC is "better" now. A few bug fixes and some clever PR does not fix a game which was flawed at its very core. Here is a great review of Darkfall which was written recently by a guy who played since beta and up until the review was posted. He says that the game still suffers from many of the same problems it always did with hackers, botters and exploiters still holding a massive advantage over everyone else and that there has been nothing done about this by the developers. This was a guy who was probably one of the biggest Darkfall fanboys there was during development and after release, but if even he can admit the problems the game has then it is clearly the truth.
The inherent problem with this game design is what I like to call the "If you build it they will come" syndrome. When you build a PvP based game where a major part of the game is killing other players and stealing/destroying everything they have, you attract players for whom the idea of killing people and stealing/destroying their stuff is attractive. That of course means assholes. You may attract other players as well but the assholes will outnumber them and eventually dirve them off leaving just the assholes to play the game by themselves. And a community full of assholes can only grief, back stab, lie to and cheat one another for so long before even they get tired of it and start looking for the next big thing, which is why you see so many of these people who claim to enjoy open PvP games constantly declaring how there is nothing good out right now and waiting for the next one. First they all waited for Shadowbane and when that game was crap they moved on to waiting for Darkfall. Now that game is crap and they are all waiting for Mortal Online. Mortal Online will meet the same fate and some other upstart developer with no clue how to run a game will announce a PvP based MMO so all the former MO players will go wait for that game. This type of game design will NEVER work. It will fail every time because the core concept behind a game like this is flawed.
Both you and PhelimReagh have very valid points... I was pretty short sighted in asking for open PvP in a sandbox especially since your 'If you build it they will come' theory plays out on almost every game I've seen. It's a shame that, going by this theory, it also means there are few people who have an interest in player building, crafting and community in an MMO. Maybe I'm just a carebear as the typical Darkfall griefer would say.
Anyway right now I'm trying Ryzom, I've heard a lot about it recently and the innovative system seems pretty good. Everything has a quality stat and lots of other stats determining how the final item ends up. I haven't played it for that long (I'm still doing the tutorial) and it seems very complex. The only thing that seems bad about it is the lack of players. So far in about an hour playing I've only seen 1 other player. I could be missing something but, that's my observation currently.
I'm not going to try Fallen Earth. One because it doesn't fit what I asked in OP at all, two I was in both the closed and open beta for the game, and the game was going at a fantastic pace. So much so, that the closed beta experience was almost exactly the same as the retail version, bar a few random glitches you'd encounter. It even still has the same UI and weapons, all they've really done since closed and open beta is squash bugs and balance some guns.
Fallen Earth claims to have an open sandbox style, but I think they're just milking those words. For one, they claim there are no classes. While FE has no classes, it has a horribly restricted SP system which pretty much restricts you to a 'Class' which will always consist of either Rifles, Pistols or Melee, with varying stats in health, stamina etc. Pretty much everyone goes Rifle and the support skills aren't that useful. It's like taking out classes and leaving you to pick something from what remains.
The crafting is the same as in any mainstream MMO, I.E. you go to a vendor or harvest materials (which has no restrictions so anyone can be a top crafter if they keep a skill maxed), then click a Craft button and wait. For a long time with no active input. No innovation, no crafting customisation, no being able to build structures. While they say it may be added in a later patch, promises like that usually end up not happening. FE is just a post-apoc version of your average mainstream MMO in my opinion.
Unique upcoming indie space-based mining and combat game - Miner Wars.
http://www.minerwars.com/?aid=191
Slow progresion? What do you mean?
Well, there is always good and bad parts of the community wherever you go.
May I ask you how much time you spent to find a corp and how did you find them?
Oh yeah, Goonswarm...
They are jerks but EVE is accomodating all kind of players, Without Goons the game wouldn't be what is is. You like it or not, there are always two sides of the coin.
I think you should be patient with MO. The crafting holds great potential.
Second Life.