Originally posted by Teala So let's rag on the female gender as if this is our fault. Also, what does playing a female toon, if you're a guy, have to do with gender specific issues. Guys have been playing female toons like forever. Any guys here ever play Tomb Raider? Thought so. Nobody thought anything of that did they. So why make a big deal out of this. If some frakked up company in China wishes to be stupid...let them. All this article is is sensationalism. Come on...this is not worthy of an article. This is kind of writing is to just get people riled up. ::sigh::
*ahem*
What?
Can I ask, honestly, whether or not you actually read the article?
No kidding guys have been playing female toons forever. I know I have. This article was written to point out how stupid this particular policy actually is. I'm making a "big deal" out of it because it's completely outrageous. Many news sites picked up on this story and I wanted to use my column this week to rant about how stupid it was.
I could see your complaint if the article had been written from the perspective of : hey, what a great idea... but it wasn't.
I agree Jon! What is next? Is the company going to have you on webcam each time you login and if they question your gender ask you to well.... bend over and "smile" for the camera to prove you are female? I mean seriously. That company is just nuts.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
I'm not disagreeing with the authors point-of-view, and I'd go as far to say that most western gamers will probably share the same view, because that's the way we've been enculturated. However, as the author said, he does not know Chinese culture, so his views are biased towards western culture. He doesn't know how Chinese people are enculturated. This may be a god send over there.
So I challenge the reviewer to do some research, walk a mile in their shoes, and then write a counter argument to this article. I think it'd be insightful and interesting. Again, I'm not saying I disagree with this article, but the media is so biased and only reports part of the truth, and that truth is usually spinned to make one person or group look awefully good, and the other awefully bad. I'm interested in WHY a company has fealt the need to know the identity of a persons gender.
I play a female gnome in eq2 cause I thought they look funny and I'm male irl, tbh I just don't see the problem. Idiots are always going to be idiots no matter what sex character they are made to play. FFS whats the world coming to, I'm sure i don't know.
Originally posted by Teala So let's rag on the female gender as if this is our fault. Also, what does playing a female toon, if you're a guy, have to do with gender specific issues. Guys have been playing female toons like forever. Any guys here ever play Tomb Raider? Thought so. Nobody thought anything of that did they. So why make a big deal out of this. If some frakked up company in China wishes to be stupid...let them. All this article is is sensationalism. Come on...this is not worthy of an article. This is kind of writing is to just get people riled up. ::sigh::
*ahem*
What?
Can I ask, honestly, whether or not you actually read the article?
No kidding guys have been playing female toons forever. I know I have. This article was written to point out how stupid this particular policy actually is. I'm making a "big deal" out of it because it's completely outrageous. Many news sites picked up on this story and I wanted to use my column this week to rant about how stupid it was.
I could see your complaint if the article had been written from the perspective of : hey, what a great idea... but it wasn't.
I agree Jon! What is next? Is the company going to have you on webcam each time you login and if they question your gender ask you to well.... bend over and "smile" for the camera to prove you are female? I mean seriously. That company is just nuts.
"You've made your decision, now let's see you enforce it" - Andrew Jackson
- not a fan of King Andrew BTW - but the quote works here.
Your opinion is based upon a Western perspective. Everyone in the world does not share the same perspectives, values (or lack of values) as those of the West.
I'd much rather read your commentary about this subject if it included an interview with the studio's management or shed some light upon the difference between the Eastern and Western customer.
You might even interview someone that knows the Chinese culture to gain some insight.
"Don't corpse-camp that idea. Its never gonna rez" Bladezz (The Guild)
As silly as enforced gender is in a GAME, it's a junk topic. Game companies in China have been doing this for years, it's OLD news that someone decided to gussy up and recycle, probably as propaganda or just to incite riots.
As silly as enforced gender is in a GAME, it's a junk topic. Game companies in China have been doing this for years, it's OLD news that someone decided to gussy up and recycle, probably as propaganda or just to incite riots. All this crap from 2007, news at it's finest. I get so tired of dead crap being dredged up. A necroed issue; someone call a cleric to smite it.
It's true this stupidity from China has been around for a while. Heck, the very same company in the article, Shanda/Aurora, has been trying to do this for TWO years
But that doesn't mean it doesn't deserve discussing. A bad analogy (but with a China connection) would be that China has been occupying Tibet for quite some time, but that's no reason to start ignoring it.
These bozos have clearly been failing miserably in their attempts over the last two years to enforce this moronic idea and the webcam idea is just the latest from the lobotomized idiots in change of Shanda. It deserves to be in the news so it can receive the international mockery it deserves.
Watch the company get fed up and ask for assistance from the government and China start chipping people like we chip our dogs so when ever you login to the game, you have to scan your chip to prove your gender.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
What I can see about Teala's objection is, a straight out bash on this kind of news may seem obvious. (Other than that, she seems to misrepresent Jon's point.)
The thing is... you have to do the obvious now and then, so that things don't get ridiculous.
The world, in its newfound global glory, is truly infectious now, and the proverbial butterfly has much more effect than perhaps you'd imagine. First, MMO companies work across borders now... Also, thinking that the MMO playerbase is international... Who knows? We may see some kind of spillage, in time.
Better react properly and be obvious than not at all.
As silly as enforced gender is in a GAME, it's a junk topic. Game companies in China have been doing this for years, it's OLD news that someone decided to gussy up and recycle, probably as propaganda or just to incite riots. All this crap from 2007, news at it's finest. I get so tired of dead crap being dredged up. A necroed issue; someone call a cleric to smite it.
It's true this stupidity from China has been around for a while. Heck, the very same company in the article, Shanda/Aurora, has been trying to do this for TWO years
But that doesn't mean it doesn't deserve discussing. A bad analogy (but with a China connection) would be that China has been occupying Tibet for quite some time, but that's no reason to start ignoring it.
These bozos have clearly been failing miserably in their attempts over the last two years to enforce this moronic idea and the webcam idea is just the latest from the lobotomized idiots in change of Shanda. It deserves to be in the news so it can receive the international mockery it deserves.
Talking about something is only good if something positive can come out of it. We can't do anything about it so it's not doing anything good. I don't get why everyone has the desperate need to fight with each other; that's all this is about.
As for the webcam bit, they were using it back then, too; that's how I recognized it.
I don't post on here at all, but I read alot of the articles. This is literally the best piece I've ever read on here. Bravo dude. Bravo. There's a ton of sexual insecurity in people who thrive on gender politics. Anyone who is concerned that "the person at the other end might be a guy" should probably abstain from hitting on a digital avatar in the first place.
p.s.: I'm pretty sure an 'editorial' implies a bias (cultural or otherwise). But no matter how you spin the "subjectivity" of the author, discrimination remains discrimination, weather it's socially accepted or not.
To all those who say that the writer is ignorant of Chinese culture in his article, what is it in Chinese culture that makes this decision more acceptable than it would be in the States or elsewhere? Just saying the author doesn't undertand the culture, therefore his article is irrelevant, without referencing why that is the case is simply playing Devil's Advocate.
I think people are also forgetting one issue with forcing players to play their genders. That is scammers.
When the player base thinks people are playing the appropriate gender it opens up the possibility for dating scams. Think,"Send me xxx cash so I can meet you in person." type scams as an example.
Im actually kinda suprised. China seems to be very puritanical when it comes to things like nudity, especially on the internet (the great green firewall and such). It suprises me that companies could get away with, what we only assume, would be getting women to undress on webcams to prove they are female. It does make me think this policy would be impossible to enforce without referencing some kind of national id cards, which they may have, rather than getting people to prove their 'biological gender' on camera.
Jon, Your opinion is based upon a Western perspective. Everyone in the world does not share the same perspectives, values (or lack of values) as those of the West. I'd much rather read your commentary about this subject if it included an interview with the studio's management or shed some light upon the difference between the Eastern and Western customer. You might even interview someone that knows the Chinese culture to gain some insight.
This wasn't an interview and it wasn't a research article. It was a commentary from a western perspective, a fact that i was VERY clear about in the body of the article itself.
If I was writing an article about the differences between Eastern and Western gamers, and gamer culture, then fine. I wasn't. I'm not saying that's a bad idea, it's just not what this column was about.
I think people are also forgetting one issue with forcing players to play their genders. That is scammers.
When the player base thinks people are playing the appropriate gender it opens up the possibility for dating scams. Think,"Send me xxx cash so I can meet you in person." type scams as an example.
People already commit dating scams without posing as the other gender and IRL., this doesn't open anything that wasn't already there. And gender, in the way of scams, is pretty irrelevant; I've seen both sides get duped.
I think people are also forgetting one issue with forcing players to play their genders. That is scammers.
When the player base thinks people are playing the appropriate gender it opens up the possibility for dating scams. Think,"Send me xxx cash so I can meet you in person." type scams as an example.
I dont really understand this, women can scam just as well as any man. Somone playing a male character could also say they are female, they just dont want to go through the hassel of proving it to play one. It wouldnt really do anything to stop it. Also anyone stupid enough to agree to something like that deserves to get scammed.
So let's rag on the female gender as if this is our fault. Also, what does playing a female toon, if you're a guy, have to do with gender specific issues. Guys have been playing female toons like forever. Any guys here ever play Tomb Raider? Thought so. Nobody thought anything of that did they. So why make a big deal out of this. If some frakked up company in China wishes to be stupid...let them. All this article is is sensationalism. Come on...this is not worthy of an article. This is kind of writing is to just get people riled up. ::sigh::
I agree, it is game for Petes sake. If someone wants to be a different person there, go ahead. Will they protest if you are small and weak IRL and play a barbarian too?
Yes, it is slightly creepy with poeple pretending to be someone else and having cybersex but the issue of who the people you play with actually is happens only to people trying to pick up people in the game.
I don't care what sex my guildies are, not IRL and not in the game. I will not treat them differently (well, in a RP thing my knight will be more polite to ladies than men). I don't care what religion, sexual perferance or nationality they have either.
I BTW know a lady that always play guys because she say that she doesn't like how some people treat ladies in the games.
Just for the theory: as a gay gamer it NEVER occured to me to play a female char. So much for this.
As to the topic per se - I think it is our strange days of twisted politcal correctness and a twist of some societies to be at odds with sexuality. That Asia is not a very liberal region (sorry, but with all that Confucianism it is IS a fact) is quite known. From personal experience I have seen that the entire topic of sex and gender is something very American. And I am not sorry for saying it. I mean, can you imagine USA has an open gay Foreign Minister? Well, get used to our Mr. Westerwelle. It may sound like an odd reference to you, but IMVPO those things are VERY related. I can't imagine people from France, Sweden, Germany or Swiss having such widespread debates about sex and gender in games.
I just read Bioware's new RPG "Dragon Age" is going to have gay sex as option, and right away where that news was written people wrote they won't buy the game now. I bet my meager fortunes it were Americans. (Sidenote: just to make sure, Americans did things better also, but in every term of gender and sex America is stuck in 1850 moral. Just my 2 Euros. )
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Just for the theory: as a gay gamer it NEVER occured to me to play a female char. So much for this. As to the topic per se - I think it is our strange days of twisted politcal correctness and a twist of some societies to be at odds with sexuality. That Asia is not a very liberal region (sorry, but with all that Confucianism it is IS a fact) is quite known. From personal experience I have seen that the entire topic of sex and gender is something very American. And I am not sorry for saying it. I mean, can you imagine USA has an open gay Foreign Minister? Well, get used to our Mr. Westerwelle. It may sound like an odd reference to you, but IMVPO those things are VERY related. I can't imagine people from France, Sweden, Germany or Swiss having such widespread debates about sex and gender in games. I just read Bioware's new RPG "Dragon Age" is going to have gay sex as option, and right away where that news was written people wrote they won't buy the game now. I bet my meager fortunes it were Americans. (Sidenote: just to make sure, Americans did things better also, but in every term of gender and sex America is stuck in 1850 moral. Just my 2 Euros. )
Meh, people who say they wont buy dragon age for that reason probally wouldnt have bought it anyway. If I didnt respect Bioware as much as I do I actually wouldnt be suprised if it was a publicity stunt to drum up controversy around the game. EA did that with Dante's inferno (well one of EA's publicity contractors), they paid a bunch of people to pretend to protest the game outside of E3 because the game was about Hell and it was offensive to christians.
I think people have a hard time discerning the difference between an article and an opinion piece. Opinion related articles sometimes mistakenly referred to as op-eds. Are all about sensationalism that is the point, to rant about a given subject that infuriates the author/journalist.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
*ahem*
What?
Can I ask, honestly, whether or not you actually read the article?
No kidding guys have been playing female toons forever. I know I have. This article was written to point out how stupid this particular policy actually is. I'm making a "big deal" out of it because it's completely outrageous. Many news sites picked up on this story and I wanted to use my column this week to rant about how stupid it was.
I could see your complaint if the article had been written from the perspective of : hey, what a great idea... but it wasn't.
I agree Jon! What is next? Is the company going to have you on webcam each time you login and if they question your gender ask you to well.... bend over and "smile" for the camera to prove you are female? I mean seriously. That company is just nuts.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
I'm not disagreeing with the authors point-of-view, and I'd go as far to say that most western gamers will probably share the same view, because that's the way we've been enculturated. However, as the author said, he does not know Chinese culture, so his views are biased towards western culture. He doesn't know how Chinese people are enculturated. This may be a god send over there.
So I challenge the reviewer to do some research, walk a mile in their shoes, and then write a counter argument to this article. I think it'd be insightful and interesting. Again, I'm not saying I disagree with this article, but the media is so biased and only reports part of the truth, and that truth is usually spinned to make one person or group look awefully good, and the other awefully bad. I'm interested in WHY a company has fealt the need to know the identity of a persons gender.
I play a female gnome in eq2 cause I thought they look funny and I'm male irl, tbh I just don't see the problem. Idiots are always going to be idiots no matter what sex character they are made to play. FFS whats the world coming to, I'm sure i don't know.
Hrmm it could spawn a whole new gold making venture though.. "For 19.99 one of our girls will pass your gender identity test. Paypal only".
*ahem*
What?
Can I ask, honestly, whether or not you actually read the article?
No kidding guys have been playing female toons forever. I know I have. This article was written to point out how stupid this particular policy actually is. I'm making a "big deal" out of it because it's completely outrageous. Many news sites picked up on this story and I wanted to use my column this week to rant about how stupid it was.
I could see your complaint if the article had been written from the perspective of : hey, what a great idea... but it wasn't.
I agree Jon! What is next? Is the company going to have you on webcam each time you login and if they question your gender ask you to well.... bend over and "smile" for the camera to prove you are female? I mean seriously. That company is just nuts.
"You've made your decision, now let's see you enforce it" - Andrew Jackson
- not a fan of King Andrew BTW - but the quote works here.
Jon,
Your opinion is based upon a Western perspective. Everyone in the world does not share the same perspectives, values (or lack of values) as those of the West.
I'd much rather read your commentary about this subject if it included an interview with the studio's management or shed some light upon the difference between the Eastern and Western customer.
You might even interview someone that knows the Chinese culture to gain some insight.
"Don't corpse-camp that idea. Its never gonna rez"
Bladezz (The Guild)
As silly as enforced gender is in a GAME, it's a junk topic. Game companies in China have been doing this for years, it's OLD news that someone decided to gussy up and recycle, probably as propaganda or just to incite riots.
www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php
current.com/items/77466131_chinese-online-role-playing-game-bans-transexual-players.htm
arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2007/09/chinese-mmorpg-banning-cross-gender-roleplayers.ars
All this crap from 2007, news at it's finest. I get so tired of dead crap being dredged up. A necroed issue; someone call a cleric to smite it.
It's true this stupidity from China has been around for a while. Heck, the very same company in the article, Shanda/Aurora, has been trying to do this for TWO years
www.massively.com/2009/10/27/chinese-company-bans-gender-bending/
But that doesn't mean it doesn't deserve discussing. A bad analogy (but with a China connection) would be that China has been occupying Tibet for quite some time, but that's no reason to start ignoring it.
These bozos have clearly been failing miserably in their attempts over the last two years to enforce this moronic idea and the webcam idea is just the latest from the lobotomized idiots in change of Shanda. It deserves to be in the news so it can receive the international mockery it deserves.
Watch the company get fed up and ask for assistance from the government and China start chipping people like we chip our dogs so when ever you login to the game, you have to scan your chip to prove your gender.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
What I can see about Teala's objection is, a straight out bash on this kind of news may seem obvious. (Other than that, she seems to misrepresent Jon's point.)
The thing is... you have to do the obvious now and then, so that things don't get ridiculous.
The world, in its newfound global glory, is truly infectious now, and the proverbial butterfly has much more effect than perhaps you'd imagine. First, MMO companies work across borders now... Also, thinking that the MMO playerbase is international... Who knows? We may see some kind of spillage, in time.
Better react properly and be obvious than not at all.
It's true this stupidity from China has been around for a while. Heck, the very same company in the article, Shanda/Aurora, has been trying to do this for TWO years
www.massively.com/2009/10/27/chinese-company-bans-gender-bending/
But that doesn't mean it doesn't deserve discussing. A bad analogy (but with a China connection) would be that China has been occupying Tibet for quite some time, but that's no reason to start ignoring it.
These bozos have clearly been failing miserably in their attempts over the last two years to enforce this moronic idea and the webcam idea is just the latest from the lobotomized idiots in change of Shanda. It deserves to be in the news so it can receive the international mockery it deserves.
Talking about something is only good if something positive can come out of it. We can't do anything about it so it's not doing anything good. I don't get why everyone has the desperate need to fight with each other; that's all this is about.
As for the webcam bit, they were using it back then, too; that's how I recognized it.
I don't post on here at all, but I read alot of the articles. This is literally the best piece I've ever read on here. Bravo dude. Bravo. There's a ton of sexual insecurity in people who thrive on gender politics. Anyone who is concerned that "the person at the other end might be a guy" should probably abstain from hitting on a digital avatar in the first place.
p.s.: I'm pretty sure an 'editorial' implies a bias (cultural or otherwise). But no matter how you spin the "subjectivity" of the author, discrimination remains discrimination, weather it's socially accepted or not.
To all those who say that the writer is ignorant of Chinese culture in his article, what is it in Chinese culture that makes this decision more acceptable than it would be in the States or elsewhere? Just saying the author doesn't undertand the culture, therefore his article is irrelevant, without referencing why that is the case is simply playing Devil's Advocate.
I think people are also forgetting one issue with forcing players to play their genders. That is scammers.
When the player base thinks people are playing the appropriate gender it opens up the possibility for dating scams. Think,"Send me xxx cash so I can meet you in person." type scams as an example.
Im actually kinda suprised. China seems to be very puritanical when it comes to things like nudity, especially on the internet (the great green firewall and such). It suprises me that companies could get away with, what we only assume, would be getting women to undress on webcams to prove they are female. It does make me think this policy would be impossible to enforce without referencing some kind of national id cards, which they may have, rather than getting people to prove their 'biological gender' on camera.
Why? Are you one of those people who hit on toons based their genders? Poor Taurens, no one ever flirts with their women.
A witty saying proves nothing.
-Voltaire
I just had a thought. Does the likeliness of prostitution rings in an MMO increase if the player base plays RL genders?
What I mean is setting up a meeting for it in RL through the game.
Isn't it easier just to assume that the only people playing are men, and that all female toons you see are creepy weirdos?
That's what I do.
This wasn't an interview and it wasn't a research article. It was a commentary from a western perspective, a fact that i was VERY clear about in the body of the article itself.
If I was writing an article about the differences between Eastern and Western gamers, and gamer culture, then fine. I wasn't. I'm not saying that's a bad idea, it's just not what this column was about.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
People already commit dating scams without posing as the other gender and IRL., this doesn't open anything that wasn't already there. And gender, in the way of scams, is pretty irrelevant; I've seen both sides get duped.
I dont really understand this, women can scam just as well as any man. Somone playing a male character could also say they are female, they just dont want to go through the hassel of proving it to play one. It wouldnt really do anything to stop it. Also anyone stupid enough to agree to something like that deserves to get scammed.
I agree, it is game for Petes sake. If someone wants to be a different person there, go ahead. Will they protest if you are small and weak IRL and play a barbarian too?
Yes, it is slightly creepy with poeple pretending to be someone else and having cybersex but the issue of who the people you play with actually is happens only to people trying to pick up people in the game.
I don't care what sex my guildies are, not IRL and not in the game. I will not treat them differently (well, in a RP thing my knight will be more polite to ladies than men). I don't care what religion, sexual perferance or nationality they have either.
I BTW know a lady that always play guys because she say that she doesn't like how some people treat ladies in the games.
Just for the theory: as a gay gamer it NEVER occured to me to play a female char. So much for this.
As to the topic per se - I think it is our strange days of twisted politcal correctness and a twist of some societies to be at odds with sexuality. That Asia is not a very liberal region (sorry, but with all that Confucianism it is IS a fact) is quite known. From personal experience I have seen that the entire topic of sex and gender is something very American. And I am not sorry for saying it. I mean, can you imagine USA has an open gay Foreign Minister? Well, get used to our Mr. Westerwelle. It may sound like an odd reference to you, but IMVPO those things are VERY related. I can't imagine people from France, Sweden, Germany or Swiss having such widespread debates about sex and gender in games.
I just read Bioware's new RPG "Dragon Age" is going to have gay sex as option, and right away where that news was written people wrote they won't buy the game now. I bet my meager fortunes it were Americans. (Sidenote: just to make sure, Americans did things better also, but in every term of gender and sex America is stuck in 1850 moral. Just my 2 Euros.
)
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Meh, people who say they wont buy dragon age for that reason probally wouldnt have bought it anyway. If I didnt respect Bioware as much as I do I actually wouldnt be suprised if it was a publicity stunt to drum up controversy around the game. EA did that with Dante's inferno (well one of EA's publicity contractors), they paid a bunch of people to pretend to protest the game outside of E3 because the game was about Hell and it was offensive to christians.
I think people have a hard time discerning the difference between an article and an opinion piece. Opinion related articles sometimes mistakenly referred to as op-eds. Are all about sensationalism that is the point, to rant about a given subject that infuriates the author/journalist.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson