So all kinds of people jumped up on Teala's back Sayin " Did you even read it?" So i say to all of you, Did You Read It? I'm gonna guess not, because if you had you would have seen the following sentences--- "No, I'm wrong actually, this insane policy only applies to people choosing to create a female character. Women, it appears, are free to pose as men as much as their little hearts desire."
That little gem at the end of the OP's rant is most likely what caused her reaction. Can ya see it now?
Now, while her reaction may have been a bit over sensitive, that is often how women react to things and flaming them is no way to keep them around. I know, I know alot of you probably havent been on a date since you divorced your hand, but really it wasnt that hard to see? If you people really want to play video games with women, i suggest you learn something about them before you go runnin off at the fingers again.
ROFL, I think Teala is more than capable of defending herself. I think most woman would take offense to just about everything you just wrote, as if they need prince valiant at their side while traversing the dangerous perils of the interwebzz.
I think she's also capable of explaining herself as she did with her apology to the author of this piece. Who she admits snapping at rashly.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For a column writer, it's a terrible misunderstanding to say that 'Developer time' would be wasted by this. It's bad enough that MMO players complain about bug fixes not happening because too much art is added to a game. At least that's confusing two different types of development team though - confusing a developer and an account manager type role is awful.
That aside, stupid move by the company obviously, but I never really get the "I have to stare at an arse for hours, it's gonna be a female one" arguement. I admit that when I played my first MMO (SWG) it never occured to me that people would roll a character of the opposite gender.
Stupid way to enforce gender rules. I have no idea what would be a good way. Men role playing women is just creepy. Please don't bring Tomb Raider or Diablo 2, or any fighter game into this. When a man CHOOSES to make himself a girl, that is just weird. No excuses.
Perhaps you should try it some time. Then you'd've learnt about the way some jerks try to treat women. I hope that does not tread on your toes too hard. Oh, I know there are the galants out there too but you'd be amazed how quickly you'd get rich from the many inadequates offering you a gold piece just for taking all your kit off! You'd be the best equiped level one in the city, should you choose to accept. Then there's the crowd who want you to talk dirty, hopefully with a box of tissues to hand so they can wipe off their keyboards [I wonder if that's why so many players have stuck CapsLock keys]. You also meet the 'experts' who not only don't know how to play their own class but show you they don't know how to play yours as they try to lecture you in monosylabic advice lest you're too dumb to understand big words. I think you would find creating just one character of the opposite sex and role-playing it regularly, to be incredibly educational.
There are already enough lonely hearts web sites out there if one is genuinely interested in meeting partners of whatever orientation floats your boat. Since I'm not aware of any MMORPG that actually get past the wedding stage by allowing you to create your next character by producing offspring, the gender/ orientation of everyone else in what is a fantasy game is totally irrelevant. Just respect they're another human being [usually] and treat them courteously as you hope they'd treat you.
Not saying that is the way to go but you have sex seggregation in many video-game tournaments and some have a requirement that you have atleast one female on your team. I did not know that. It sort of disproves the 'girls are just as good at video games' argument, doesn't it? Just like sports.
*shrug* I dont know what it approves or disaproves. Just saying how it is and that it is not that unusual to ask people what gender they are. Dont see why online video games would be any different. Believe it or not men and women are different, not better or worse, but different (general speaking). Oh, some would dispute that, but of course it's true. Anyone who knows anything about evolution and gender roles understands that. If you really want to play a female char and you are male I dont see an issue with that aslong as I know you are a male sitting behind the keyboard. Hiding your true gender, be it behind a computer desk or lying for a job application, I dont see any good in that.
I don't RP as a female. In the rare case when I do RP, I always play a male character.
The great majority of the time, I think of my character as 'him' or 'her', not 'me'.
Well sure, that is what roleplaying is about. But in my experience, playing MMORPGs for over 12 years, roleplayers are very rare and even on roleplaying servers to see people actually "be in character" is not common.
But even so, I think people who play against/for each other, should know basic info about who the are playing with. Such as if they are minors, gender etc.
I dont know about you but I act differently if a person is a minor or a women. For example I would not normally use offensive language towards minors or jokes that are of sexual nature towards females because imo, most of the time, that is not appreciated.
So I would not mind if a guy plays a female character, but I do want to know the true gender of the person controlling that male character so I can act accordingly.
So all kinds of people jumped up on Teala's back. Sayin " Did you even read it?" So i say to all of you, Did You Read It? I'm gonna guess not, because if you had you would have seen the following sentences--- No, I'm wrong actually, this insane policy only applies to people choosing to create a female character. Women, it appears, are free to pose as men as much as their little hearts desire.
Right, so it's men who are being discriminated against, not women. She played the victim without cause.
Its not that women were being discriminated against, its the "as much as thier little hearts desire" part that women would object to. Its written in what seems a dismissive and condescending manner. Its likely that the OP did'ent mean it as such ... but on face value thats how it could be taken which may offend. Ending the sentence "as much as they desire" would have gone over much better without the apparent snipe at women gamers.
What?
Women would object to that? I doubt it. ONE women objected to the article and, judgind from her post, I would say she did not get the article at all. I doubt most women would find that sentance dismissive and/or condascending. Is it the "little" part that would do that? Dont think majority of women are that sensetive.
You have to think about games like PerfectWorld Internationnal for example, where some class are gender specific! Does that mean a guy could NEVER be allowed to play a veno?! Or a woman forbidden to play a barbarian! Thats just absurd.
Originally posted by Yamota But even so, I think people who play against/for each other, should know basic info about who the are playing with. Such as if they are minors, gender etc. I dont know about you but I act differently if a person is a minor or a women. For example I would not normally use offensive language towards minors or jokes that are of sexual nature towards females because imo, most of the time, that is not appreciated.
Waaaait wait wait wait...
So you play a game that childrens play as well, and then use offensive language towards other players? Why? Can't you just behave respectfully towards others, no matter their age or gender?
And then, to pick up your example, you keep telling sexist jokes obviously often enough that it matters, and which are obviously that harassing that you wouldn't want any "real" woman to notice that you like doing so? Why? Would you want next that a company tells you which nationality people have so you can adjust your racist jokes the same way as your sexist jokes and offensive language?
Why telling such jokes and using such language in the first case? If you don't want to tell people the jokes who are the target of your harrassment because you don't want to hurt them, then simply stop telling such jokes in the first case. They do not get better if the people they are about do not hear them. These "jokes" still exist, get told, and whoever gets targeted will get hurt.
Or you don't want them to notice you telling such jokes because you want to impress "the ladies" to seem more mature than you are? What for? You'll most likely never meet them anyway in person. And if you do, they'll notice sooner or later anyway what kind of humor you got.
As said:
Be respectful towards other players no matter their age, gender, nationality or whatever. Or is it that hard to do?
I used to never gender bend ever. Used to try and make chars look as close to myself as possible. After a while seeing the really cool looking female characters I tried creating one. After that I thought why the hell would I want to follow a character around (since they are mostley all played in 3rd person) thats a guy when I could be watching a Tomb Raider look a like. Now I create them to look as close to my wife as possible with a few enhancements here and there . Its like a movie, entertainment, kind of like an actor or actress your controlling throughout the scenes so who cares? China is a different story all together. Government into everything, controlling everything. Bet they have government health care too.
This post is intentionally written as to not make any sense what so ever. Thank You Very Much.
While I agree with the article position I also find some good in this. Personally I hate being immersed in the RP, completely enjoying the game to have the young female wizard I have been protecting for the last month come on comms and have a voice deeper than mine and have a real name of Ralph. It kills the games immersion.
While I agree with the article position I also find some good in this. Personally I hate being immersed in the RP, completely enjoying the game to have the young female wizard I have been protecting for the last month come on comms and have a voice deeper than mine and have a real name of Ralph. It kills the games immersion.
I guess you are among the many that miss the bigger picture.
Sure, yea, it ensures that the female toon you chat with is a female behind it, but thats it. The female toons will be harassed to no end in the game now. Think about it... You have 20% female population, thats 4 guys per girl. You bet they will get harassed (by harassed I mean sent messages and given too much attention).
As to immersion, I dont get it. If you are on voice-chat you are already fighting against immersion. I totally disacociate in-game gender from real-life gender since I'd rather play female toons over male ones. They just look better.
While I agree with the article position I also find some good in this. Personally I hate being immersed in the RP, completely enjoying the game to have the young female wizard I have been protecting for the last month come on comms and have a voice deeper than mine and have a real name of Ralph. It kills the games immersion.
Umm... if your talking 100% total immersive experience - Why in the world are you using any form of Ventrilo or TeamSpeak?
Per your same argument:
I don't want the tiny male gnome to have the voice of the burly oversized plumper named Bob
I don't want the burly male orc warrior to have the voice of 19 year old college boy that is just "discovering himself" and also happens to have a lisp.
... and I really don't want to listen to anyone that sounds like they are under the age of 21 at any time on any server. I'm sorry, but going by your own mindset - it would eliminate over 50% of the MMO population as I don't typically see teenage characters running around even though they are played by teenagers.
I also have a sneaking suspicion that like the company mentioned in the OP's write up, that if you were playing along side a male wizard for a month and then get on Vent and find out that the wizard was actually female - you wouldn't have any problem with that at all.
Not to mention that I would suspect that your RP partner would probably think that they were the one protecting you.
Second reaction: Feminine hysteria? Boys do more bitch fights online than girls do :P
Third reaction: LMAO
This is so ridiculous, it's amazing people are even capable of discussing it on a near serious basis. I would imagine the company will be losing a lot of players - and a lot of income - on that policy, and I doubt if they wanna earn money any companies will follow their examples.
As for all the homophobic boys getting all riled up over the 'but-but-but we were just having such a good time and she turns out to be a he!! *gasp-shock-gasp*" - there's a reason it's called roleplaying. If you can't seperate IC from OOC, chances are the other party, should she be a girl, is better off not 'having a good time with you'.
"So I contend that the player stories will always be more powerful than the scripted stories that we try to tell the players."
Originally posted by Yamota But even so, I think people who play against/for each other, should know basic info about who the are playing with. Such as if they are minors, gender etc. I dont know about you but I act differently if a person is a minor or a women. For example I would not normally use offensive language towards minors or jokes that are of sexual nature towards females because imo, most of the time, that is not appreciated.
Waaaait wait wait wait...
So you play a game that childrens play as well, and then use offensive language towards other players? Why? Can't you just behave respectfully towards others, no matter their age or gender?
Ofcourse I try and act respectfully against others but being disrespectful to a guy in his twenties and a minor and a female can mean different things. That was my point.
And then, to pick up your example, you keep telling sexist jokes obviously often enough that it matters, and which are obviously that harassing that you wouldn't want any "real" woman to notice that you like doing so? Why? Would you want next that a company tells you which nationality people have so you can adjust your racist jokes the same way as your sexist jokes and offensive language?
Excuse me but where did I say SEXIST jokes? I said jokes that are sexual of nature, that does not mean sexists. learn the difference. I never tell sexist or rascist jokes. Again it seems you seem have to (deliberitely?) misinterpret what I was saying.
Why telling such jokes and using such language in the first case? If you don't want to tell people the jokes who are the target of your harrassment because you don't want to hurt them, then simply stop telling such jokes in the first case. They do not get better if the people they are about do not hear them. These "jokes" still exist, get told, and whoever gets targeted will get hurt.
See above. I was not talking about sexist or rascist jokes. Some jokes are inappropriate to tell to various types of people. Does not neccessarily need to be rascist. Jay Leno for example made alot of jokes about Catholic priests fondling children, that type of jokes is maybe not something you want to joke about towards minors.
Or you don't want them to notice you telling such jokes because you want to impress "the ladies" to seem more mature than you are? What for? You'll most likely never meet them anyway in person. And if you do, they'll notice sooner or later anyway what kind of humor you got.
As said:
Be respectful towards other players no matter their age, gender, nationality or whatever. Or is it that hard to do?
Again you have totally missunderstood what I was saying. People, even if you dont want to realise it, act differently in different environments. Not in the sense that you want to make it look like, that you are rascist or sexist but rather that some type of language and manners are different when you talk to different people. As an example I had jokes of sexual nature (observe not neccessarily sexist) which in my experiences resonate better to younger males than younger females or minors.
Anyway, this is getting derailed of the subject. My standpoint is: If you are male then why would you want to hide that fact? If it does not matter to you then the policy should not matter. What do I care of someone knows if a am female or male when playing an internet game? I would rather want them to know so that they can act in the right context.
If I may point out, I don't even think it's the inequality behind it that Jon found sick, it was what they required for proof: webcam appearance. Any feminine guy can dress as a girl, so what proof would they demand? I think he's disgusted by the fact that they may require a shot of sexual organs as evidence for gender. On top of that, any guy can ask his sister or girlfriend to fill in as their "proof" rendering the entire system pointless for practical purposes. And since only females are required to do this, the real motive behind this system should be critically questioned.
No, I pretty much found the whole situation absurd. From the inequality to the absolute insanity of trying to actually enforce this kind of policy.
It's silly is all. That was the point.
Thats your opinion based on a western view-point.
While I myself find it "kinda-odd" I am able to look past my western upbringing and try to reason as to why this would be acceptable to another culture and even encouraged by some sections of that culture. You seem incapable of doing so. The world is bigger than your backyard my friend.
View-points that you dont understand are not always "wrong" or in your words "It's silly is all."
Bias is in everyone (even me I admit it) but if you want to really interact with people on a world wide basis you have to accept your own bias and try to look beyond it. The internet *IS* world wide, the first true world wide communication system for the common man in mankinds history. Dismissing something because it does not fit your cultural "norm" wont get you far in a discussions with people that transend man-made bounderys on a map. (Unless of course your only goal was to stir up western opinion about *those silly chinese* .. which would paint you as a sad individual)
You wrote a piece on a topic that has NO IMPACT on you (There are no plans to put this system in place in thier western games as yet) and tried to hype-it up and garner outrage from an audiance (the western market) that it has no impact on. Worse still you wrote the artical with (you admit it) no refrence to the culture that it does impact or thier feelings on it. Typical media BS.
Before you write articles like this you should at least do a little homework on why they are doing this, what the people actually effected by it feel, are they against it? Its is a ploy for media attention? Do they have what they feel is good reason? .. rather than getting your panties in a twist because someone somewhere is doing something that you dont understand. Try being more objective in your writing and less bias (again, we all have bias, great writers can look past thier own bias though .. you it seems cant)
To serve as an example, that what becomes a no brainer for westerners is not what other countries want or are used to, when I was in Iraq when I was in the Marines, back in 2003, the goal passed down to us troops was that Bush wanted to bring democracy to the mid-east. I guess democracy was something that the U.S. would stand behind, to support the war with more zeal, but democracy is great from our perspective. It is not great, as recent history has proven, for the people over there. They aren't used to it, their cultural norms don't support it, and many don't like it. This would baffle a western person, because having more freedom should be a no brainer, but they liked their lives that THEY were used to.
Now I'm not saying the Chinese like this gender verification thing, but I'm not going to pass judgement like an arrogant fool either, because I don't know the kind of support this idea has over there or their reasons. While it's outrageous to consider doing something in the USA like that, and it violates so many laws it isn't funny, it may be normal over there. I don't judge countries based on their abnormal ways, just because they're strange to me. Take children sweat shops as another example. Children in other countries work, it's the norm, because if they don't work, they'd starve as would their families. Everyone works who has an able body in some other countries. It's an honor to work. They don't have an education system like we do. Other countries are very different in their ideals, values, ethics, and ways. I'll end my rant there, but I think becoming enlightened is important, and we can't do that if we only view the world as Americans.
Originally posted by nate1980 To serve as an example, that what becomes a no brainer for westerners is not what other countries want or are used to, when I was in Iraq when I was in the Marines, back in 2003, the goal passed down to us troops was that Bush wanted to bring democracy to the mid-east. I guess democracy was something that the U.S. would stand behind, to support the war with more zeal, but democracy is great from our perspective. It is not great, as recent history has proven, for the people over there. They aren't used to it, their cultural norms don't support it, and many don't like it. This would baffle a western person, because having more freedom should be a no brainer, but they liked their lives that THEY were used to.
Nice insight. So why were you over there killing them?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I don't RP as a female. In the rare case when I do RP, I always play a male character. The great majority of the time, I think of my character as 'him' or 'her', not 'me'. Well sure, that is what roleplaying is about. But in my experience, playing MMORPGs for over 12 years, roleplayers are very rare and even on roleplaying servers to see people actually "be in character" is not common. But even so, I think people who play against/for each other, should know basic info about who the are playing with. Such as if they are minors, gender etc. I dont know about you but I act differently if a person is a minor or a women. For example I would not normally use offensive language towards minors or jokes that are of sexual nature towards females because imo, most of the time, that is not appreciated. So I would not mind if a guy plays a female character, but I do want to know the true gender of the person controlling that male character so I can act accordingly.
Some sound advice would be to treat people equally. When you do that, you don't need to worry about what their gender or age is. I for one don't curse, tell nasty immature jokes, or do anything else that may show disrespect to others or make me look ill-mannered, or degrade me as a human being. If you need to alter your speech to not offend a particular party, it's likely that that speech wasn't needed to begin with. It's a rule I live by, and has served me well.
Since I first started playing MMORPG's with DAoC, I've almost always assumed a person is a she if it's a female avatar. Hell, the first person I met in DAoC was a female Paladin and was a real woman IRL. Some are obvious males, but those who aren't, I just assume they are female. But it really doesn't matter, because WHY does it matter if they are really female or male? Are you going to treat them differently? If so, reread paragraph one. Bottom line, there's no reason for ME to know the gender of the people playing, because it has no bearing on my game. I treat people the same, and I sure as hell don't try and date them.
Wait ... I just thought about this for a moment. This is just another Asian MMO. So, what is all the concern about? You know that the bulk of the player base are going to have submit photos or webcam shots simular to this one:
i like the idea. people could finally cybersex with each other without a risk tat there is a guy on the other side
Hmm yeah but there is one problem, games arent meant for cyber sex.......no offense intended but if you want to cyber find a chat room to do it or an adult oriented game. Personally given the choice id rather not spend hours stareing at a male characters butt. Haveing a female rear in the middle of my screen is actually less disturbing and makes it easier to play.
Admittedly though i only design female characters i would find attractive (probably why ive never had a dwarf character in WoW),but yeah i dont play to pick up girls :P
May your gear always be "Purple" and you gold (or ISK or inf) be plentiful)
Originally posted by nate1980 To serve as an example, that what becomes a no brainer for westerners is not what other countries want or are used to, when I was in Iraq when I was in the Marines, back in 2003, the goal passed down to us troops was that Bush wanted to bring democracy to the mid-east. I guess democracy was something that the U.S. would stand behind, to support the war with more zeal, but democracy is great from our perspective. It is not great, as recent history has proven, for the people over there. They aren't used to it, their cultural norms don't support it, and many don't like it. This would baffle a western person, because having more freedom should be a no brainer, but they liked their lives that THEY were used to.
Nice insight. So why were you over there killing them?
We were sent there, because our government suspected that there were hidden WMD's over there. After being there for two months, we got the word that we were going to liberate the middle east and make their governments democracy. I left there at the end of May 2003, after the war officially was ended, so I have no idea what reasons they're telling troops now to keep their morale up.
There's a very easy solution to all of this: No one roll a female character! Men won't have to prove they're men, and women won't have to prove they're not men.
In asian MMOs, it's very common for there to be a "sex" lock on your account... I remember back when I first played iRO (waaaaay back in the day, when it was still in "beta"), I was shocked to learn that because I had stated I was female when I signed up for an account, I couldn't roll anything aside from a female character. But for them, they take the whole in-game dating/marriage thing a lot more seriously than we do out here.
Still, requiring girls/women to submit photos of themselves to play female avatars? I'm sure some girls would, just because they'd then be in high demand in-game, especially since I'd think that a lot of girls would rather just roll a male character and then "prove" their sex to any partner they meet. Personally though, I'd just rather play a gay male character and not have to flash my bewbies at random strangers/game developers who WANT you to show them off.
@ ;The guy who speaks differently around women / children. That seems perfectly acceptable. There are things I will say to men my own age that I wouldn't say to children or women. I can understand his point of view .
Though I've played WoW for a long while and only met two girls that had male characters. I've met at least 30 guys with female characters and a couple hundred who just had male characters. The most distrubing of which was being forced to listen to some redneck on vent go on about how hot his female character was looking in her "Rp" outfit.
There is tolerable; (Mithra in FFXI, guys who make chicks with obviously male names) weird; (guys playing blood elf chicks with names like Annastasia) and creepy (guys that "Rp" as their blood elf chick named Annastasia)
Yes there are tons of excuses. Demarc01 has some very viable reasons. Perhaps my opinions are due to my immaturity. I just don't buy into a lot of excuses people use. That means I don't understand why you would do it, and people always fear what they don't understand.
@ ;The guy who speaks differently around women / children. That seems perfectly acceptable. There are things I will say to men my own age that I wouldn't say to children or women. I can understand his point of view . Though I've played WoW for a long while and only met two girls that had male characters. I've met at least 30 guys with female characters and a couple hundred who just had male characters. The most distrubing of which was being forced to listen to some redneck on vent go on about how hot his female character was looking in her "Rp" outfit. There is tolerable; (Mithra in FFXI, guys who make chicks with obviously male names) weird; (guys playing blood elf chicks with names like Annastasia) and creepy (guys that "Rp" as their blood elf chick named Annastasia) Yes there are tons of excuses. Demarc01 has some very viable reasons. Perhaps my opinions are due to my immaturity. I just don't buy into a lot of excuses people use. That means I don't understand why you would do it, and people always fear what they don't understand.
Whoah there.
I gave an explination as to why I have been known to play a female Avatar, but I stipulated that although I may play a female Avatar I "never" try to pass myself off as a female. All my guildmates and friends know I am male, anyone I group with generally gets told that myself and my *wife* are sat next to each other as we play together. (Habbit I formed pretty fast to stop kids hitting on my wife as soon as she says hi over com's) I freely use IGV and Vent and never try to hide my true gender.
Now I can understand people really wanting to get "into a role" when playing a cross gender character, although I'm of the opinion that would be a very very small minority. The others, as far as I can tell, are pretending to be female for other reasons .. usually gains within the game system bestowed by other unsuspecting players.
I would'ent go so far as to say that all people who really adopt a cross sex character to the fullest are "wierd pervs" though .. some have real reasons for it (Yes exploring thier sexuality is a real reason) but I'd wager that most who put on this act do it for other less noble motives.
Its the internet ... anonimity rules, just becareful who you trust out there.
Sidenote - the redneck saying how "hot" his Avatar was .. thats a whole nother level of wierd and sexually frustraighted IMO.
Comments
What? EVERY month?
Heh he said not more than once a month ... so skipping a couple is acceptable
ROFL, I think Teala is more than capable of defending herself. I think most woman would take offense to just about everything you just wrote, as if they need prince valiant at their side while traversing the dangerous perils of the interwebzz.
I think she's also capable of explaining herself as she did with her apology to the author of this piece. Who she admits snapping at rashly.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For a column writer, it's a terrible misunderstanding to say that 'Developer time' would be wasted by this. It's bad enough that MMO players complain about bug fixes not happening because too much art is added to a game. At least that's confusing two different types of development team though - confusing a developer and an account manager type role is awful.
That aside, stupid move by the company obviously, but I never really get the "I have to stare at an arse for hours, it's gonna be a female one" arguement. I admit that when I played my first MMO (SWG) it never occured to me that people would roll a character of the opposite gender.
Good point. That's a relief.
For the record, I'm only trying to conserve water.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Perhaps you should try it some time. Then you'd've learnt about the way some jerks try to treat women. I hope that does not tread on your toes too hard. Oh, I know there are the galants out there too but you'd be amazed how quickly you'd get rich from the many inadequates offering you a gold piece just for taking all your kit off! You'd be the best equiped level one in the city, should you choose to accept. Then there's the crowd who want you to talk dirty, hopefully with a box of tissues to hand so they can wipe off their keyboards [I wonder if that's why so many players have stuck CapsLock keys]. You also meet the 'experts' who not only don't know how to play their own class but show you they don't know how to play yours as they try to lecture you in monosylabic advice lest you're too dumb to understand big words. I think you would find creating just one character of the opposite sex and role-playing it regularly, to be incredibly educational.
There are already enough lonely hearts web sites out there if one is genuinely interested in meeting partners of whatever orientation floats your boat. Since I'm not aware of any MMORPG that actually get past the wedding stage by allowing you to create your next character by producing offspring, the gender/ orientation of everyone else in what is a fantasy game is totally irrelevant. Just respect they're another human being [usually] and treat them courteously as you hope they'd treat you.
I don't RP as a female. In the rare case when I do RP, I always play a male character.
The great majority of the time, I think of my character as 'him' or 'her', not 'me'.
Well sure, that is what roleplaying is about. But in my experience, playing MMORPGs for over 12 years, roleplayers are very rare and even on roleplaying servers to see people actually "be in character" is not common.
But even so, I think people who play against/for each other, should know basic info about who the are playing with. Such as if they are minors, gender etc.
I dont know about you but I act differently if a person is a minor or a women. For example I would not normally use offensive language towards minors or jokes that are of sexual nature towards females because imo, most of the time, that is not appreciated.
So I would not mind if a guy plays a female character, but I do want to know the true gender of the person controlling that male character so I can act accordingly.
My gaming blog
Right, so it's men who are being discriminated against, not women. She played the victim without cause.
Its not that women were being discriminated against, its the "as much as thier little hearts desire" part that women would object to. Its written in what seems a dismissive and condescending manner. Its likely that the OP did'ent mean it as such ... but on face value thats how it could be taken which may offend. Ending the sentence "as much as they desire" would have gone over much better without the apparent snipe at women gamers.
What?
Women would object to that? I doubt it. ONE women objected to the article and, judgind from her post, I would say she did not get the article at all. I doubt most women would find that sentance dismissive and/or condascending. Is it the "little" part that would do that? Dont think majority of women are that sensetive.
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You have to think about games like PerfectWorld Internationnal for example, where some class are gender specific! Does that mean a guy could NEVER be allowed to play a veno?! Or a woman forbidden to play a barbarian! Thats just absurd.
Waaaait wait wait wait...
So you play a game that childrens play as well, and then use offensive language towards other players? Why? Can't you just behave respectfully towards others, no matter their age or gender?
And then, to pick up your example, you keep telling sexist jokes obviously often enough that it matters, and which are obviously that harassing that you wouldn't want any "real" woman to notice that you like doing so? Why? Would you want next that a company tells you which nationality people have so you can adjust your racist jokes the same way as your sexist jokes and offensive language?
Why telling such jokes and using such language in the first case? If you don't want to tell people the jokes who are the target of your harrassment because you don't want to hurt them, then simply stop telling such jokes in the first case. They do not get better if the people they are about do not hear them. These "jokes" still exist, get told, and whoever gets targeted will get hurt.
Or you don't want them to notice you telling such jokes because you want to impress "the ladies" to seem more mature than you are? What for? You'll most likely never meet them anyway in person. And if you do, they'll notice sooner or later anyway what kind of humor you got.
As said:
Be respectful towards other players no matter their age, gender, nationality or whatever. Or is it that hard to do?
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
I used to never gender bend ever. Used to try and make chars look as close to myself as possible. After a while seeing the really cool looking female characters I tried creating one. After that I thought why the hell would I want to follow a character around (since they are mostley all played in 3rd person) thats a guy when I could be watching a Tomb Raider look a like. Now I create them to look as close to my wife as possible with a few enhancements here and there
. Its like a movie, entertainment, kind of like an actor or actress your controlling throughout the scenes so who cares? China is a different story all together. Government into everything, controlling everything. Bet they have government health care too.
This post is intentionally written as to not make any sense what so ever. Thank You Very Much.
While I agree with the article position I also find some good in this. Personally I hate being immersed in the RP, completely enjoying the game to have the young female wizard I have been protecting for the last month come on comms and have a voice deeper than mine and have a real name of Ralph. It kills the games immersion.
=============================
I have a soap box and I am not afraid to use it.
I guess you are among the many that miss the bigger picture.
Sure, yea, it ensures that the female toon you chat with is a female behind it, but thats it. The female toons will be harassed to no end in the game now. Think about it... You have 20% female population, thats 4 guys per girl. You bet they will get harassed (by harassed I mean sent messages and given too much attention).
As to immersion, I dont get it. If you are on voice-chat you are already fighting against immersion. I totally disacociate in-game gender from real-life gender since I'd rather play female toons over male ones. They just look better.
Umm... if your talking 100% total immersive experience - Why in the world are you using any form of Ventrilo or TeamSpeak?
Per your same argument:
Not to mention that I would suspect that your RP partner would probably think that they were the one protecting you.
First reaction: LMAO
Second reaction: Feminine hysteria? Boys do more bitch fights online than girls do :P
Third reaction: LMAO
This is so ridiculous, it's amazing people are even capable of discussing it on a near serious basis. I would imagine the company will be losing a lot of players - and a lot of income - on that policy, and I doubt if they wanna earn money any companies will follow their examples.
As for all the homophobic boys getting all riled up over the 'but-but-but we were just having such a good time and she turns out to be a he!! *gasp-shock-gasp*" - there's a reason it's called roleplaying. If you can't seperate IC from OOC, chances are the other party, should she be a girl, is better off not 'having a good time with you'.
"So I contend that the player stories will always be more powerful than the scripted stories that we try to tell the players."
- Will Wright
Waaaait wait wait wait...
So you play a game that childrens play as well, and then use offensive language towards other players? Why? Can't you just behave respectfully towards others, no matter their age or gender?
Ofcourse I try and act respectfully against others but being disrespectful to a guy in his twenties and a minor and a female can mean different things. That was my point.
And then, to pick up your example, you keep telling sexist jokes obviously often enough that it matters, and which are obviously that harassing that you wouldn't want any "real" woman to notice that you like doing so? Why? Would you want next that a company tells you which nationality people have so you can adjust your racist jokes the same way as your sexist jokes and offensive language?
Excuse me but where did I say SEXIST jokes? I said jokes that are sexual of nature, that does not mean sexists. learn the difference. I never tell sexist or rascist jokes. Again it seems you seem have to (deliberitely?) misinterpret what I was saying.
Why telling such jokes and using such language in the first case? If you don't want to tell people the jokes who are the target of your harrassment because you don't want to hurt them, then simply stop telling such jokes in the first case. They do not get better if the people they are about do not hear them. These "jokes" still exist, get told, and whoever gets targeted will get hurt.
See above. I was not talking about sexist or rascist jokes. Some jokes are inappropriate to tell to various types of people. Does not neccessarily need to be rascist. Jay Leno for example made alot of jokes about Catholic priests fondling children, that type of jokes is maybe not something you want to joke about towards minors.
Or you don't want them to notice you telling such jokes because you want to impress "the ladies" to seem more mature than you are? What for? You'll most likely never meet them anyway in person. And if you do, they'll notice sooner or later anyway what kind of humor you got.
As said:
Be respectful towards other players no matter their age, gender, nationality or whatever. Or is it that hard to do?
Again you have totally missunderstood what I was saying. People, even if you dont want to realise it, act differently in different environments. Not in the sense that you want to make it look like, that you are rascist or sexist but rather that some type of language and manners are different when you talk to different people. As an example I had jokes of sexual nature (observe not neccessarily sexist) which in my experiences resonate better to younger males than younger females or minors.
Anyway, this is getting derailed of the subject. My standpoint is: If you are male then why would you want to hide that fact? If it does not matter to you then the policy should not matter. What do I care of someone knows if a am female or male when playing an internet game? I would rather want them to know so that they can act in the right context.
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No, I pretty much found the whole situation absurd. From the inequality to the absolute insanity of trying to actually enforce this kind of policy.
It's silly is all. That was the point.
Thats your opinion based on a western view-point.
While I myself find it "kinda-odd" I am able to look past my western upbringing and try to reason as to why this would be acceptable to another culture and even encouraged by some sections of that culture. You seem incapable of doing so. The world is bigger than your backyard my friend.
View-points that you dont understand are not always "wrong" or in your words "It's silly is all."
Bias is in everyone (even me I admit it) but if you want to really interact with people on a world wide basis you have to accept your own bias and try to look beyond it. The internet *IS* world wide, the first true world wide communication system for the common man in mankinds history. Dismissing something because it does not fit your cultural "norm" wont get you far in a discussions with people that transend man-made bounderys on a map. (Unless of course your only goal was to stir up western opinion about *those silly chinese* .. which would paint you as a sad individual)
You wrote a piece on a topic that has NO IMPACT on you (There are no plans to put this system in place in thier western games as yet) and tried to hype-it up and garner outrage from an audiance (the western market) that it has no impact on. Worse still you wrote the artical with (you admit it) no refrence to the culture that it does impact or thier feelings on it. Typical media BS.
Before you write articles like this you should at least do a little homework on why they are doing this, what the people actually effected by it feel, are they against it? Its is a ploy for media attention? Do they have what they feel is good reason? .. rather than getting your panties in a twist because someone somewhere is doing something that you dont understand. Try being more objective in your writing and less bias (again, we all have bias, great writers can look past thier own bias though .. you it seems cant)
To serve as an example, that what becomes a no brainer for westerners is not what other countries want or are used to, when I was in Iraq when I was in the Marines, back in 2003, the goal passed down to us troops was that Bush wanted to bring democracy to the mid-east. I guess democracy was something that the U.S. would stand behind, to support the war with more zeal, but democracy is great from our perspective. It is not great, as recent history has proven, for the people over there. They aren't used to it, their cultural norms don't support it, and many don't like it. This would baffle a western person, because having more freedom should be a no brainer, but they liked their lives that THEY were used to.
Now I'm not saying the Chinese like this gender verification thing, but I'm not going to pass judgement like an arrogant fool either, because I don't know the kind of support this idea has over there or their reasons. While it's outrageous to consider doing something in the USA like that, and it violates so many laws it isn't funny, it may be normal over there. I don't judge countries based on their abnormal ways, just because they're strange to me. Take children sweat shops as another example. Children in other countries work, it's the norm, because if they don't work, they'd starve as would their families. Everyone works who has an able body in some other countries. It's an honor to work. They don't have an education system like we do. Other countries are very different in their ideals, values, ethics, and ways. I'll end my rant there, but I think becoming enlightened is important, and we can't do that if we only view the world as Americans.
Nice insight. So why were you over there killing them?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Some sound advice would be to treat people equally. When you do that, you don't need to worry about what their gender or age is. I for one don't curse, tell nasty immature jokes, or do anything else that may show disrespect to others or make me look ill-mannered, or degrade me as a human being. If you need to alter your speech to not offend a particular party, it's likely that that speech wasn't needed to begin with. It's a rule I live by, and has served me well.
Since I first started playing MMORPG's with DAoC, I've almost always assumed a person is a she if it's a female avatar. Hell, the first person I met in DAoC was a female Paladin and was a real woman IRL. Some are obvious males, but those who aren't, I just assume they are female. But it really doesn't matter, because WHY does it matter if they are really female or male? Are you going to treat them differently? If so, reread paragraph one. Bottom line, there's no reason for ME to know the gender of the people playing, because it has no bearing on my game. I treat people the same, and I sure as hell don't try and date them.
Wait ... I just thought about this for a moment. This is just another Asian MMO. So, what is all the concern about? You know that the bulk of the player base are going to have submit photos or webcam shots simular to this one:
Hmm yeah but there is one problem, games arent meant for cyber sex.......no offense intended but if you want to cyber find a chat room to do it
or an adult oriented game. Personally given the choice id rather not spend hours stareing at a male characters butt. Haveing a female rear in the middle of my screen is actually less disturbing and makes it easier to play.
Admittedly though i only design female characters i would find attractive (probably why ive never had a dwarf character in WoW),but yeah i dont play to pick up girls :P
May your gear always be "Purple" and you gold (or ISK or inf) be plentiful)
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Nice insight. So why were you over there killing them?
We were sent there, because our government suspected that there were hidden WMD's over there. After being there for two months, we got the word that we were going to liberate the middle east and make their governments democracy. I left there at the end of May 2003, after the war officially was ended, so I have no idea what reasons they're telling troops now to keep their morale up.
Next up: Chinese law dicates you have to prove you have udders, horns, hooves and fur in order to be allowed to play a Tauren.
Playing: WF
Played: WoW, GW2, L2, WAR, AoC, DnL (2005), GW, LotRO, EQ2, TOR, CoH (RIP), STO, TSW, TERA, EVE, ESO, BDO
Tried: EQ, UO, AO, EnB, TCoS, Fury, Ryzom, EU, DDO, TR, RF, CO, Aion, VG, DN, Vindictus, AA
There's a very easy solution to all of this: No one roll a female character! Men won't have to prove they're men, and women won't have to prove they're not men.
In asian MMOs, it's very common for there to be a "sex" lock on your account... I remember back when I first played iRO (waaaaay back in the day, when it was still in "beta"), I was shocked to learn that because I had stated I was female when I signed up for an account, I couldn't roll anything aside from a female character. But for them, they take the whole in-game dating/marriage thing a lot more seriously than we do out here.
Still, requiring girls/women to submit photos of themselves to play female avatars? I'm sure some girls would, just because they'd then be in high demand in-game, especially since I'd think that a lot of girls would rather just roll a male character and then "prove" their sex to any partner they meet. Personally though, I'd just rather play a gay male character and not have to flash my bewbies at random strangers/game developers who WANT you to show them off.
@ ;The guy who speaks differently around women / children. That seems perfectly acceptable. There are things I will say to men my own age that I wouldn't say to children or women. I can understand his point of view .
Though I've played WoW for a long while and only met two girls that had male characters. I've met at least 30 guys with female characters and a couple hundred who just had male characters. The most distrubing of which was being forced to listen to some redneck on vent go on about how hot his female character was looking in her "Rp" outfit.
There is tolerable; (Mithra in FFXI, guys who make chicks with obviously male names) weird; (guys playing blood elf chicks with names like Annastasia) and creepy (guys that "Rp" as their blood elf chick named Annastasia)
Yes there are tons of excuses. Demarc01 has some very viable reasons. Perhaps my opinions are due to my immaturity. I just don't buy into a lot of excuses people use. That means I don't understand why you would do it, and people always fear what they don't understand.
Whoah there.
I gave an explination as to why I have been known to play a female Avatar, but I stipulated that although I may play a female Avatar I "never" try to pass myself off as a female. All my guildmates and friends know I am male, anyone I group with generally gets told that myself and my *wife* are sat next to each other as we play together. (Habbit I formed pretty fast to stop kids hitting on my wife as soon as she says hi over com's) I freely use IGV and Vent and never try to hide my true gender.
Now I can understand people really wanting to get "into a role" when playing a cross gender character, although I'm of the opinion that would be a very very small minority. The others, as far as I can tell, are pretending to be female for other reasons .. usually gains within the game system bestowed by other unsuspecting players.
I would'ent go so far as to say that all people who really adopt a cross sex character to the fullest are "wierd pervs" though .. some have real reasons for it (Yes exploring thier sexuality is a real reason) but I'd wager that most who put on this act do it for other less noble motives.
Its the internet ... anonimity rules, just becareful who you trust out there.
Sidenote - the redneck saying how "hot" his Avatar was .. thats a whole nother level of wierd and sexually frustraighted IMO.