I personally don't give a crap whether the toons are male or female IRL because I'm not going to cyber with them anyway.
Most of the time I create females myself, because 1) I like watching the backside, and 2) I am no longer immersed by any game to the point that I believe I am my character.
It's really a form of discrimination and sexual harassment against women. I mean, let's distill it down to what it is: If you're a girl show me your pussy or you can't play. Whatever rationalization or justification the developers give is irrelevant.
Imagine this for a second. You get up early one morning and on your way to the kitchen to make some breakfast you see your mom....or your sister....with their pants down holding the webcam over their vagina. Who the hell is okay with that but some sick person.
This has turned into an argument over guys play male toons so they must be gay, bla bla bla. No, the argument is actually more fundamental than that, it's a question of women being forced to do something demeaning to participate in the same thing that a male does. It's discriminatory and demeaning.
Point 1 - "Show me your pussy or you can't play"
Odd but i did'ent see that anywhere. The method of proof required was'ent stated because the writer could'ent bother his lazy arse to do some research. As far as we know all it requires is a valid credit card (Your sex is linked to your credit card account btw) Your just taking the worst possible case and running with it, the same as the OP infured. Its called media-hype .. learn to see past it.
Point 2 - "Can't play"
/sigh Did you even read the artical at all? Female gamers are free to play males with no sex verification required. So to say they can't play if they dont verify it totally wrong again. Discrimination against women? Ok so lets get this straight. Woman can play male characters no problems as can males. Women who verify thier sex (Again ... less of the show us your pussy talk and be reasonable .. credit card? Passport? Fucking DRIVERS LICENSE?) can play females but males never can. According to you thats discrimination against women? Err ok, rock on genius.
Point 1- Maybe you should read the article. Here's a quote from the OP:
This company cares so deeply that not only are they freezing the accounts of any male players who may have happened to have created female toons, but they are even going so far as to require "gamers who chose female characters to prove their biological sex with a webcam."
Point 2- Anyone playing a female toon must show proof of their gender. Since males are excluded from playing female toons as is their policy, only women wishing to play a female toon would be subjected to this policy. So yes it is discriminatory. Back at you, genius.
Point 1 -
but they are even going so far as to require "gamers who chose female characters to prove their biological sex with a webcam."
And from this you get "show them your pussy"? Not smile infront of a webcam? Not show your passport to the webcam? Your an odd person. Maby they want you to sit at a webcam and show ID to prevent you having your sister or neighbour sit there for you? Maby they would like to see a picture of your ID and you together to ensure there was no scam? OMG way to far fetched .. obviously they just want to see your pussy. I think your the one being a little extrem here no?
Instead of jumping on the "omg chinese are the debil" band wagon you may wanna try and look past the bias in the article, Its written to cause outrage to the reader (Western game player) and if you cant tell that then you should have stayed on in school past 3rd grade. Your refusing to look at it from any view point other than your own massivly biased one though, so any argument directed towards you is like talking to a wall.
Point 2 -
Ahh. So exclusion totally is not discrimination where as proving you are what you say you are is? Thats your point?
You can't ride the ride unless your 5' ... so if your under 5' thats not discrimination but if your over 5' and have to pass the nice hight line that is discrimination? Rite?
Hate to say it matey but your gonna be asked to prove your who you say you are alot as you go through life. Thats not discrimination though thats just the way the world works. A game company doing this is not a far strech to me. My CC company insisted that I was who I said I was before they gave me a line of credit .. should I sue since they discriminated against me by making me prove it?
The fact that females have the option to play a female Avatar and males do not ever have that option means that the discrimination is on the male side. Maby you shold google discrimination.
"Discriminatory behaviours take many forms, but they all involve some form of exclusion or rejection"
Odd but its the males in this case that are excluded or rejected .. the females, as long as they abide by the game's rules (Proving they are female) are not excluded. Now if you want to bring up some anal argument about the game rules being sexist because women have to prove they are who they say they are then we can go around in circles somemore. Bottom line is though that your not looking at it from thier cultural perspective .. 106 men - 100 women. Dont sound alot does it? With a population of 1.3 billion though that means around 400.000 males in china are destined not to find a mate ... opens a whole world of online scams if you can "pretend" to be a single female looking for a husband among a slew of young single chinese males online huh?
Thats not to say that this is the reason for this move, I am just more inclined to look for reasons why they would feel this is a good thing to do rather than assume that they simply want to see some pussy (Which after all they can find in seconds with a half decent browser .. although its prob censored knowing the chineses gov.)
It's really a form of discrimination and sexual harassment against women. I mean, let's distill it down to what it is: If you're a girl show me your pussy or you can't play. Whatever rationalization or justification the developers give is irrelevant.
Imagine this for a second. You get up early one morning and on your way to the kitchen to make some breakfast you see your mom....or your sister....with their pants down holding the webcam over their vagina. Who the hell is okay with that but some sick person.
This has turned into an argument over guys play male toons so they must be gay, bla bla bla. No, the argument is actually more fundamental than that, it's a question of women being forced to do something demeaning to participate in the same thing that a male does. It's discriminatory and demeaning.
Point 1 - "Show me your pussy or you can't play"
Odd but i did'ent see that anywhere. The method of proof required was'ent stated because the writer could'ent bother his lazy arse to do some research. As far as we know all it requires is a valid credit card (Your sex is linked to your credit card account btw) Your just taking the worst possible case and running with it, the same as the OP infured. Its called media-hype .. learn to see past it.
Point 2 - "Can't play"
/sigh Did you even read the artical at all? Female gamers are free to play males with no sex verification required. So to say they can't play if they dont verify it totally wrong again. Discrimination against women? Ok so lets get this straight. Woman can play male characters no problems as can males. Women who verify thier sex (Again ... less of the show us your pussy talk and be reasonable .. credit card? Passport? Fucking DRIVERS LICENSE?) can play females but males never can. According to you thats discrimination against women? Err ok, rock on genius.
Point 1- Maybe you should read the article. Here's a quote from the OP:
This company cares so deeply that not only are they freezing the accounts of any male players who may have happened to have created female toons, but they are even going so far as to require "gamers who chose female characters to prove their biological sex with a webcam."
Taking a webcam shot of you holding your Driver's License or other Government I.D. is a perfectly valid way of proving your Biological Sex. Quite a few dating sites require that sort of proof.
I don't get the mentality of people reading that line and then suddenly jumping to, "Show us your goodies!". I guess that's just the mindset of America?
Seeing as MMOs to the Chinese are roughly equivalent to social networking sites in the USA, I don't honestly see it as that big an issue.
Point 2- Anyone playing a female toon must show proof of their gender. Since males are excluded from playing female toons as is their policy, only women wishing to play a female toon would be subjected to this policy. So yes it is discriminatory. Back at you, genius.
It's discriminatory, but it's also necessary where the margin of male population in the country means that a very good number of men are going to live lonely lives. You know, since the whole government is freakishly homophobic.
Honestly, it's even more discriminatory to men. This is sort of a subversive way of routing out what they view as, "homosexual, or deviant sexual behaviour". Women being discriminated against is more or less collateral damage.
Besides, we're talking about the country, that not even 50 years ago is was common practice to bind women's feet so that they couldn't travel far or run away without a man's help.
Oh wow, just wow. I want to see how long this will fly before profits go through the floor! I'mma gal, I like to play male toons because their armor looks better (how about a rant on that? Why do the chick toons look so flippin punny!! Give me a buff Chick, damned it!). Even though I would be exempt from this absurdly rediculous & strangely child-like rule....why would I support a gaming company with such a rule? It goes against my principle of live & let live. If any game I play suddenly institutes this rule of "prove your sex", they won't be getting my support anymore.
Anyways, I would never expect to see this in todays world, but since we are seeing it....as the dude put it "thomeone has thexuality ithues!" Totally. Someone tell that CEO to go get some theropy so he will stop taking it out on the people that flipping pay him his paycheck. Wow, just wow.
Moo. There. Are you happy now? ---------------------- Don't feed the trolls. If you must comment, consider participating in a long held internet tradition of responding to trolls with random discussions about food. Elk Jelly anyone?
Point 1 - but they are even going so far as to require "gamers who chose female characters to prove their biological sex with a webcam." And from this you get "show them your pussy"? Not smile infront of a webcam? Not show your passport to the webcam? Your an odd person. Maby they want you to sit at a webcam and show ID to prevent you having your sister or neighbour sit there for you? Maby they would like to see a picture of your ID and you together to ensure there was no scam? OMG way to far fetched .. obviously they just want to see your pussy. I think your the one being a little extrem here no? Instead of jumping on the "omg chinese are the debil" band wagon you may wanna try and look past the bias in the article, Its written to cause outrage to the reader (Western game player) and if you cant tell that then you should have stayed on in school past 3rd grade. Your refusing to look at it from any view point other than your own massivly biased one though, so any argument directed towards you is like talking to a wall.
Point 2 - Ahh. So exclusion totally is not discrimination where as proving you are what you say you are is? Thats your point? You can't ride the ride unless your 5' ... so if your under 5' thats not discrimination but if your over 5' and have to pass the nice hight line that is discrimination? Rite? Hate to say it matey but your gonna be asked to prove your who you say you are alot as you go through life. Thats not discrimination though thats just the way the world works. A game company doing this is not a far strech to me. My CC company insisted that I was who I said I was before they gave me a line of credit .. should I sue since they discriminated against me by making me prove it? The fact that females have the option to play a female Avatar and males do not ever have that option means that the discrimination is on the male side. Maby you shold google discrimination. "Discriminatory behaviours take many forms, but they all involve some form of exclusion or rejection" Odd but its the males in this case that are excluded or rejected .. the females, as long as they abide by the game's rules (Proving they are female) are not excluded. Now if you want to bring up some anal argument about the game rules being sexist because women have to prove they are who they say they are then we can go around in circles somemore. Bottom line is though that your not looking at it from thier cultural perspective .. 106 men - 100 women. Dont sound alot does it? With a population of 1.3 billion though that means around 400.000 males in china are destined not to find a mate ... opens a whole world of online scams if you can "pretend" to be a single female looking for a husband among a slew of young single chinese males online huh? Thats not to say that this is the reason for this move, I am just more inclined to look for reasons why they would feel this is a good thing to do rather than assume that they simply want to see some pussy (Which after all they can find in seconds with a half decent browser .. although its prob censored knowing the chineses gov.) Back at ya, Genius.
This is such a juvenile post, do you feel better?
First of all I really have no care about the Chinese one way or the other it makes no difference to me ( I do like Bruce Lee). What they do doesn't have an impact on "most" of my daily life. I however have a hard time discerning exactly how you're pulling some kind of racist message from this discussion. You're definitely not thinking every point you're making through. Sure someone can sit in front of a cam hold up an I.D. and pass the test so to speak. In this day and age that means absolute squat. Which is what the author was getting at and I think you missed that part. There's no way to know if the she is a he even if you do check in the nether regions. This is a Pandora's box imo, open it and you're in for all kinds of surprises.
I seriously doubt anyone seriously thinks they would expect you to pull up your skirt, it's the purpose itself that is insanely ridiculous. There's no way to know whether she used to be a he, or she may even become a he. That's society today, no matter where in the world you are.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Wasting your time mate, I've been saying this for pages .. seems people would rather rant about "Those stupid Chinese" than actually try to see a different cultural viewpoint.
Oh, please, spare me this PC nonsense.
When someone murders their daughter because she "shamed" their family by being seen with 2 square inches of skin showing, I don't want to be told, "Oh, we must be tolerant of other cultures and not impose our point of view on them." As far as I'm concerned, MY culture allows me to strangle anyone who says that with their own intestines. Don't agree? Too bad, you've already undermined any counter-argument you can make.
And, no, banning people from online games isn't the same as murder. However, once you begin with the "We mustn't judge other cultures" crap, the slope is pretty darn slippery and I've never encountered anyone who can define a point where they say, "OK, it's safe to judge them now." Either there are absolute human rights which no culture should violate, regardless of their "traditions" or "beliefs", or everything's fair game. Is there an absolute human right to play an RPG? No -- these are private games and if a game company wants to mandate that you can only play if you're a brown-haired Taurus with no beard, then, that's their right. However, the fact they've got a right to do it doesn't mean I can't say, "Damn, that's STUPID."
The game company has a right to set whatever rules they wish for access to their property. And everyone else has a right to call them fracking morons for doing so and point, laugh, and jeer at them. (And to do the same to anyone who squeaks about 'tolerance' and 'understanding'. They're MORONS. Period.)
Haha talk about taking it to the limit.
Hate to break it to you but not all the world follows your world view. Where as i do accept that there are deffinate basic human rights that has nothing to do with trying to view a decison like this from another cultures viewpoint. While I mention human rights I should point out that Guantanamo Bay is a deffinate violation of human rights .. so dont get holier than thou with me about human rights when I bet you turn a blind eye to that since suspected terrorists "dont count" k?
Accepting that different parts of the world view things differently does not mean that you have to accept "everything" that culture embraces. For example I am not too fond of lopping peoples hands off for theiving yet I cant deny that theft is rarer where they do ... thats an extrem example a more mild one is that a certian country in Europe insists that all male citizens serve "National service" and after service they are assigned an assult rifle ... near every home in said county has an assult rifle and a trained male user inside. I dont agree with that either .. although I cant deny that violent crime there is the lowest in Europe. Neither have anything to do with the rules of a video game though !!!
Cultural differences are what make the world an interesting place to live in. Embracing them enriches us all. Thats not to say that I like the Chinese Gov. Its a totalitarian regim and has masses of flaws .. but culture is more than just govenment and laws.
You should be careful about judging others though .. unless you have a full understanding of the situation its very difficult to put yourself in another shoes and feel total empathy for what they were going through and the situation at hand. Juse because you dont feel something is right does not make it so ... bottom line.
Saying all of that .. sure you can say "damm thats stupid" all you want. My issue with the article and the writer is he made no attempt to garner any input from the people it does effect. Where is the outrages chinese gameplayer quoted? For all we here in the west know its a welcome addition in China and they are very happy to see it. Thats my point about culture difference. I read the article and thought .. OP is an idiot, hes massivly biased and made no attempt to educate himself in anyway about how this impacted the people effected. He wrote the story with vague inuendos (Hence the droves of "they just wanna see the pussys" threads) and stired up his target audiance.
This was never a suggested "feature" for the western market (Although the OP never bothered to mention that the company has made no indication that it ever intends to add this to any western launch) yet the OP knew the reaction it would garner. Instead of making his article useful and suggesting a discussion about why this would never work for a western market, or suggesting reasons why the chinese market would entertain this ider, he left it vague in order to stir people up. As is evidenced by the posts in this thread about how silly an ider it is and how the western market wont stand for it .. not in my game .. etc etc. No shit. The article is media-hype to garner a negitive responce from the reader-base. And it has. +1 point OP.
Most people it seems cant read through Bias, so I guess I am wasting my time here. I dont want people to agree with the "prove your sex policy" or disagree with it. I want people to educate themselves, find out why they would impliment such and thing and find out its ramifications on the chinese player base and THEN draw a conclusion as to wether its a good or bad thing for the CHINESE player base (not for you personally since it has no effect on you personally) I want people to look past bias look past culture and self-educate. Should be easy with the inter-webz at your fingertips no?
I don't get the mentality of people reading that line and then suddenly jumping to, "Show us your goodies!". I guess that's just the mindset of America?
It's carrying out the idea to it's absurd extreme. it's a common device used to point out how stupid something is. It shows the mindset in the United States doesn't allow such bizarre restrictions.
Yes they do, you left out this part;
"Taking a webcam shot of you holding your Driver's License or other Government I.D. is a perfectly valid way of proving your Biological Sex. Quite a few dating sites require that sort of proof.
I don't get the mentality of people reading that line and then suddenly jumping to, "Show us your goodies!". I guess that's just the mindset of America?
Seeing as MMOs to the Chinese are roughly equivalent to social networking sites in the USA, I don't honestly see it as that big an issue."
If you are going to quote me, quote the whole thing. Not just the bits that make your argument look better.
It's discriminatory, but it's also necessary where the margin of male population in the country means that a very good number of men are going to live lonely lives. You know, since the whole government is freakishly homophobic.
Homophobia isn't necessary. In any form. Ever. I's also not necessary for the margin of male population to be that high.
I think you might be confused, it's not necessary for the margin of male population to be that high...no. But it is that high, whether it is necessary or not.
Oh you also did the same thing again, here let me help you and add the text you cut out;
"Honestly, it's even more discriminatory to men. This is sort of a subversive way of routing out what they view as, "homosexual, or deviant sexual behaviour". Women being discriminated against is more or less collateral damage."
Homophobia isn't necessary, but I see it as a smart move from a company that is trying it's best to stay on the government's good side.
Keep in mind this isn't government mandated, but rather a company's policy. It's not about human rights when it's a product's terms of use. Even in America it's not uncommon to have restrictions on a product's terms of use similar to this.
Besides, we're talking about the country, that not even 50 years ago is was common practice to bind women's feet so that they couldn't travel far or run away without a man's help.
Fifty years ago in the United States it was common practice to murder young people and bury them in swamps for registering black people to vote. We got over that. China needs to come out of it's dark ages too. They will be ridiculed until they do.
Yes and people still do die for such things in places in America. You are asking for an overnight instantaneous change. These things do not happen.
I don't get the mentality of people reading that line and then suddenly jumping to, "Show us your goodies!". I guess that's just the mindset of America?
It's carrying out the idea to it's absurd extreme. it's a common device used to point out how stupid something is. It shows the mindset in the United States doesn't allow such bizarre restrictions.
My point here - this is not about the united states. This policy does not exist in the united states, there is no plan to add this policy to the united states. This is about China .. not the united states.
It's discriminatory, but it's also necessary where the margin of male population in the country means that a very good number of men are going to live lonely lives. You know, since the whole government is freakishly homophobic.
Homophobia isn't necessary. In any form. Ever. I's also not necessary for the margin of male population to be that high.
While on a personal level I agree with you .. thats simply not the case in China. Just because you say (and I say) its unacceptable will not make it so in China. That being said we have to play the cards dealt. Current population ratio in China 106 males to 100 women. Sounds small .. do the math on 1.3 billion.
Besides, we're talking about the country, that not even 50 years ago is was common practice to bind women's feet so that they couldn't travel far or run away without a man's help.
Fifty years ago in the United States it was common practice to murder young people and bury them in swamps for registering black people to vote. We got over that. China needs to come out of it's dark ages too. They will be ridiculed until they do.
They will given time. Change is slow to come, as for ridicule .. that does not help the situation. Better to try and understand and work towards common ground rather than ridicule IMO
Since about 3/4 of all female avatars are played by male players I just consider all of them male until proven otherwise.
Never understood the male proclivity to playing a female avatar.
MMORPG - Many Men Online, Role Playing Girls
GIRL - Guy In Real Life
Words to live by when dealing with female avatars in online games.
I could care less, I usually play male characters, but have rolled a few female ones from time to time. (but never try pretend to be female in any way)
Lots of reasons why this company might have wanted to enforce such a rule, most of us wouldn't agree with it and therefore won't play the game..
Interesting topic to discuss, and an entertaining thread to read even though it took quite a while. (slow day at work fortunately)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Point 1 - but they are even going so far as to require "gamers who chose female characters to prove their biological sex with a webcam." And from this you get "show them your pussy"? Not smile infront of a webcam? Not show your passport to the webcam? Your an odd person. Maby they want you to sit at a webcam and show ID to prevent you having your sister or neighbour sit there for you? Maby they would like to see a picture of your ID and you together to ensure there was no scam? OMG way to far fetched .. obviously they just want to see your pussy. I think your the one being a little extrem here no? Instead of jumping on the "omg chinese are the debil" band wagon you may wanna try and look past the bias in the article, Its written to cause outrage to the reader (Western game player) and if you cant tell that then you should have stayed on in school past 3rd grade. Your refusing to look at it from any view point other than your own massivly biased one though, so any argument directed towards you is like talking to a wall.
Point 2 - Ahh. So exclusion totally is not discrimination where as proving you are what you say you are is? Thats your point? You can't ride the ride unless your 5' ... so if your under 5' thats not discrimination but if your over 5' and have to pass the nice hight line that is discrimination? Rite? Hate to say it matey but your gonna be asked to prove your who you say you are alot as you go through life. Thats not discrimination though thats just the way the world works. A game company doing this is not a far strech to me. My CC company insisted that I was who I said I was before they gave me a line of credit .. should I sue since they discriminated against me by making me prove it? The fact that females have the option to play a female Avatar and males do not ever have that option means that the discrimination is on the male side. Maby you shold google discrimination. "Discriminatory behaviours take many forms, but they all involve some form of exclusion or rejection" Odd but its the males in this case that are excluded or rejected .. the females, as long as they abide by the game's rules (Proving they are female) are not excluded. Now if you want to bring up some anal argument about the game rules being sexist because women have to prove they are who they say they are then we can go around in circles somemore. Bottom line is though that your not looking at it from thier cultural perspective .. 106 men - 100 women. Dont sound alot does it? With a population of 1.3 billion though that means around 400.000 males in china are destined not to find a mate ... opens a whole world of online scams if you can "pretend" to be a single female looking for a husband among a slew of young single chinese males online huh? Thats not to say that this is the reason for this move, I am just more inclined to look for reasons why they would feel this is a good thing to do rather than assume that they simply want to see some pussy (Which after all they can find in seconds with a half decent browser .. although its prob censored knowing the chineses gov.) Back at ya, Genius.
This is such a juvenile post, do you feel better?
First of all I really have no care about the Chinese one way or the other it makes no difference to me ( I do like Bruce Lee). What they do doesn't have an impact on "most" of my daily life. I however have a hard time discerning exactly how you're pulling some kind of racist message from this discussion. You're definitely not thinking every point you're making through. Sure someone can sit in front of a cam hold up an I.D. and pass the test so to speak. In this day and age that means absolute squat. Which is what the author was getting at and I think you missed that part. There's no way to know if the she is a he even if you do check in the nether regions. This is a Pandora's box imo, open it and you're in for all kinds of surprises.
I seriously doubt anyone seriously thinks they would expect you to pull up your skirt, it's the purpose itself that is insanely ridiculous. There's no way to know whether she used to be a he, or she may even become a he. That's society today, no matter where in the world you are.
Feel better? Naw I am here on my day off supping some beers and shooting the shit online. Feelings have little to do with it. Juvenile? heh no comment there since I was only answering your post in the method you chose to answer mine mate.
You have no care what the Chinese do? Thats interesting to me since they hold the purse strings of America. Yup America is so far in debt to China if they called in the tab we'd all be eating moo-shoo next week.
I dont think your racist at all. I'm pretty sure I never even implyed that either. If you did take it as me calling you a racist I apologize and assure you that at no point was that my intention. As far as I can tell you do not strike me as racist .. you just refuse to see things from another cultures view point. That does not make you racist at all. Its a common thing that people find it difficult to see other peoples perspective on things. Hell alot of the time even I dont (or refuse to) see things from anothers view point. That does not make me racist just human.
On the other hand I make a point of trying to see things from others view points and trying to take on board another cultures ideals and messages .. not because I agree with everything they say or think .. simply because it helps me understand them and try to reason / debate with them on a more sound footing.
As for the proof of sex thing .. sure a webcam + Photo ID is not 100% foolproof scammer free .. but its a step towards what they seem to want which is a verification of sex.
The real discussion here should not be that this company wants a verification of sex from female gamers. It should be WHY does the company want that verification. Thats the real story here. The OP of course was just looking for a decent post count for his article and never really bothered to look past the sensationalism of "Chinese game Co. Wants a look at your pussy!!*
I guess you are among the many that miss the bigger picture. Sure, yea, it ensures that the female toon you chat with is a female behind it, but thats it. The female toons will be harassed to no end in the game now. Think about it... You have 20% female population, thats 4 guys per girl. You bet they will get harassed (by harassed I mean sent messages and given too much attention). As to immersion, I dont get it. If you are on voice-chat you are already fighting against immersion. I totally disacociate in-game gender from real-life gender since I'd rather play female toons over male ones. They just look better.
Dude the girls you know need to quit playing with little boys. Seriously I have been part of a bunch of guilds/corporations, I have run about half of them and ALL of them had a strict female friendly policy. The groups also have PG limit on chat so that could be part of it.
A mature gaming group does not care if the player is male or female.
It's really a form of discrimination and sexual harassment against women. I mean, let's distill it down to what it is: If you're a girl show me your pussy or you can't play. Whatever rationalization or justification the developers give is irrelevant.
Imagine this for a second. You get up early one morning and on your way to the kitchen to make some breakfast you see your mom....or your sister....with their pants down holding the webcam over their vagina. Who the hell is okay with that but some sick person.
This has turned into an argument over guys play male toons so they must be gay, bla bla bla. No, the argument is actually more fundamental than that, it's a question of women being forced to do something demeaning to participate in the same thing that a male does. It's discriminatory and demeaning.
First of all there will be no showing of vaginas, that is complete fabrication. Second of all you are required to show proof of your gender in many kinds of activities, inluding sports, so this is unheard of.
Also it cannot be considered discrimiation since males (trying to play female chars) will need to prove their gender as well. This is just getting blown way out of proportion. The check could simply be to check the gender of the person holding the credit card or registered as account owner. Who knows and why is it so important?
They provide a service and you are required to not misrepresent your true gender. Dont like it then dont use their service. In many sports you are required to prove your gender, dont like it then dont participate.
I don't give a crap what other people play as, I just don't want to play as a woman. Which sucks in games like Diablo and Borderlands where your class and your sex are tied together.
"It is in your nature to do one thing correctly; Before me, you rightfully tremble. But, fear is not what you owe me. You owe me awe." ~Francis Dolarhyde
This is such a juvenile post, do you feel better? First of all I really have no care about the Chinese one way or the other it makes no difference to me ( I do like Bruce Lee). What they do doesn't have an impact on "most" of my daily life. I however have a hard time discerning exactly how you're pulling some kind of racist message from this discussion. You're definitely not thinking every point you're making through. Sure someone can sit in front of a cam hold up an I.D. and pass the test so to speak. In this day and age that means absolute squat. Which is what the author was getting at and I think you missed that part. There's no way to know if the she is a he even if you do check in the nether regions. This is a Pandora's box imo, open it and you're in for all kinds of surprises. I seriously doubt anyone seriously thinks they would expect you to pull up your skirt, it's the purpose itself that is insanely ridiculous. There's no way to know whether she used to be a he, or she may even become a he. That's society today, no matter where in the world you are.
Feel better? Naw I am here on my day off supping some beers and shooting the shit online. Feelings have little to do with it. Juvenile? heh no comment there since I was only answering your post in the method you chose to answer mine mate.
You have no care what the Chinese do? Thats interesting to me since they hold the purse strings of America. Yup America is so far in debt to China if they called in the tab we'd all be eating moo-shoo next week.
I dont think your racist at all. I'm pretty sure I never even implyed that either. If you did take it as me calling you a racist I apologize and assure you that at no point was that my intention. As far as I can tell you do not strike me as racist .. you just refuse to see things from another cultures view point. That does not make you racist at all. Its a common thing that people find it difficult to see other peoples perspective on things. Hell alot of the time even I dont (or refuse to) see things from anothers view point. That does not make me racist just human.
On the other hand I make a point of trying to see things from others view points and trying to take on board another cultures ideals and messages .. not because I agree with everything they say or think .. simply because it helps me understand them and try to reason / debate with them on a more sound footing.
As for the proof of sex thing .. sure a webcam + Photo ID is not 100% foolproof scammer free .. but its a step towards what they seem to want which is a verification of sex.
The real discussion here should not be that this company wants a verification of sex from female gamers. It should be WHY does the company want that verification. Thats the real story here. The OP of course was just looking for a decent post count for his article and never really bothered to look past the sensationalism of "Chinese game Co. Wants a look at your pussy!!*
Sure if this had been an article I'd expect some research into it's purposes. The problem is, this was not an article this was an opinion. Understanding their culture is pretty much irrelevant to the discussion. Also say I did understand their culture which i do to an extent, and yes i know all about my countries relationship with china. If there's anything to note it's that their culture is about 100 times more productive than ours. That again is irrelevant to the discussion.
Maybe you're not calling people racist, you are implying ignorance in the worst sense of the word. Simply because people are doing what they do (express opinions). That in and of itself is short sighted and not much different than what you are accusing others of.
In my opinion the OP is simply providing an opinion on their policy, regardless of their motivation. Because there are so many holes in the logic behind what they are doing.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Point 1- Maybe you should read the article. Here's a quote from the OP:
This company cares so deeply that not only are they freezing the accounts of any male players who may have happened to have created female toons, but they are even going so far as to require "gamers who chose female characters to prove their biological sex with a webcam."
And it is vaginas that are to be shown in webcam? Hm, could it be your passport where your gender is clearly specified? I dunno, which makes more sense?
Point 2- Anyone playing a female toon must show proof of their gender. Since males are excluded from playing female toons as is their policy, only women wishing to play a female toon would be subjected to this policy. So yes it is discriminatory. Back at you, genius.
Nonsense. Girls are free to play male or female characters it is males who are not free to play female characters. Whatever individual, male or female, who created a female character needs to show that they are indeed females and those that are males are kicked out. So if anything it is the males who are being discriminated.
But as usual you rabid feminist try to make a sexist case from something which isnt-
Wasting your time mate, I've been saying this for pages .. seems people would rather rant about "Those stupid Chinese" than actually try to see a different cultural viewpoint.
Oh, please, spare me this PC nonsense.
When someone murders their daughter because she "shamed" their family by being seen with 2 square inches of skin showing, I don't want to be told, "Oh, we must be tolerant of other cultures and not impose our point of view on them." As far as I'm concerned, MY culture allows me to strangle anyone who says that with their own intestines. Don't agree? Too bad, you've already undermined any counter-argument you can make.
That's a retarded analogy! There's a big difference between a gaming company in china doing whatever the hell they want with their own product, which is subject to the local consumers actually making it a success, and a murderous religious group’s actions. In this case, NO. No one from another culture has the right to dictate their own ethics onto another’s entertainment products, as you suggest. I bet you have a char named Lizzy don't you?
Since about 3/4 of all female avatars are played by male players I just consider all of them male until proven otherwise.
Never understood the male proclivity to playing a female avatar.
I have lots of male and female toons in many different games. In most cases, such as my female human DK in WoW, I personally dislike the way that the male humans look and like the females better. I am the one that has to sit there and stare at my toon every time I play, why wouldn't I rather have an avatar that is more aesthetically pleasing. That means nothing whatsoever about my sexual preference or intentions- everyone I know knows who I am and who my characters are, and that's all that matters. In fact, we have many females in our guild, but twice as many female toons because many of the guys play them as well.
That said, I do agree with Ozmodan that I just assume that everyone I encounter in game, male or female, is a male until I learn otherwise ( I admit that I have come across a few who have been deceptive about age or gender). Overall, I couldn't care less. It's just an avatar, and it's just a game.
Seeing stupid stuff like this (and the arguments that follow it) remind me of my own MMO experiences.
For the record, my characters tend to be either gender, following a 50/50 ratio. Now does that somehow make me bisexual? Or perhaps sexually insecure? Strangely enough, it doesn't.
There's absolutely no reason to harp on people playing an avatar of the opposite gender. Notice that this is quite different from someone pretending to be something he's not for dubious reasons (such as getting free stuff, having fun at someone's expense, etc)
I think the problem stems from people who equate avatar gender with real gender and/or sexual orientation. To give you a very concrete example, lets go back in time when I was in the Meridian 59 beta (yep, a long time ago in MMO history).
I had made a female avatar named Red Sonja. Never once did I roleplay, I simply interacted with people the same way I do in real life. Yet somehow within a week I had received three marriage proposals because people interpreted me being sociable and generally nice to others as being a woman. Truly silly thinking, and a sign that some people take online interaction WAY too seriously.
I never led anyone on, I never lied to anyone, I never pretended to be a woman, I simply (naively) assumed people wouldn't try to hit on others. All the avatar gender insecurity comes from these types of people: it's the internet, there's no way to tell who you're dealing with at first glance. Whether they're male or female, pedophiles, racists, terrorists, policemen, the Pope or the President of the United States.
So people, stop assuming stuff about strangers and just enjoy the game you're playing. Internet friendship will never beat real life friendship, try it on for size.
Does this surprise anyone? The Chinese Government loves to put on a show for the outside world as to how far they have come...ie the Olympics, but the World knows better. They are a Communist country that controls every aspect of their citizens lives... At some point, the people will grow tired of it, and the internet will be the catalyst.
This is such a juvenile post, do you feel better? First of all I really have no care about the Chinese one way or the other it makes no difference to me ( I do like Bruce Lee). What they do doesn't have an impact on "most" of my daily life. I however have a hard time discerning exactly how you're pulling some kind of racist message from this discussion. You're definitely not thinking every point you're making through. Sure someone can sit in front of a cam hold up an I.D. and pass the test so to speak. In this day and age that means absolute squat. Which is what the author was getting at and I think you missed that part. There's no way to know if the she is a he even if you do check in the nether regions. This is a Pandora's box imo, open it and you're in for all kinds of surprises. I seriously doubt anyone seriously thinks they would expect you to pull up your skirt, it's the purpose itself that is insanely ridiculous. There's no way to know whether she used to be a he, or she may even become a he. That's society today, no matter where in the world you are.
Feel better? Naw I am here on my day off supping some beers and shooting the shit online. Feelings have little to do with it. Juvenile? heh no comment there since I was only answering your post in the method you chose to answer mine mate.
You have no care what the Chinese do? Thats interesting to me since they hold the purse strings of America. Yup America is so far in debt to China if they called in the tab we'd all be eating moo-shoo next week.
I dont think your racist at all. I'm pretty sure I never even implyed that either. If you did take it as me calling you a racist I apologize and assure you that at no point was that my intention. As far as I can tell you do not strike me as racist .. you just refuse to see things from another cultures view point. That does not make you racist at all. Its a common thing that people find it difficult to see other peoples perspective on things. Hell alot of the time even I dont (or refuse to) see things from anothers view point. That does not make me racist just human.
On the other hand I make a point of trying to see things from others view points and trying to take on board another cultures ideals and messages .. not because I agree with everything they say or think .. simply because it helps me understand them and try to reason / debate with them on a more sound footing.
As for the proof of sex thing .. sure a webcam + Photo ID is not 100% foolproof scammer free .. but its a step towards what they seem to want which is a verification of sex.
The real discussion here should not be that this company wants a verification of sex from female gamers. It should be WHY does the company want that verification. Thats the real story here. The OP of course was just looking for a decent post count for his article and never really bothered to look past the sensationalism of "Chinese game Co. Wants a look at your pussy!!*
Sure if this had been an article I'd expect some research into it's purposes. The problem is, this was not an article this was an opinion. Understanding their culture is pretty much irrelevant to the discussion. Also say I did understand their culture which i do to an extent, and yes i know all about my countries relationship with china. If there's anything to note it's that their culture is about 100 times more productive than ours. That again is irrelevant to the discussion.
Maybe you're not calling people racist, you are implying ignorance in the worst sense of the word. Simply because people are doing what they do (express opinions). That in and of itself is short sighted and not much different than what you are accusing others of.
In my opinion the OP is simply providing an opinion on their policy, regardless of their motivation. Because there are so many holes in the logic behind what they are doing.
Ok to dissect your reply.
Personally I view it as an Article. Its supported by the website and posted by one of thier paid writers. Its may or may not be the opinion of some or all of the writers here but since its a paid for piece of work, published by this site to the public it is to me, an article. Much like an article in any newspaper. As such I would expect a certian amount of research to go into said piece and would expect the author to be able to back-up thier facts with proof of some kind.
Understanding thier culture as a whole is indeed irrelivent to the article. However understanding thier culture in relation to the content is relivent. Understanding how the system being discussed (The proof of sex) impacts the culture and why such a measure may or may not be received within said culture has a major impact on the article. Since the system being discussed (Proof of sex) is only for the Chinese market and no other (At this time) surly if you are going to discuss that system you have to do so within the culture that it is being introduced. To discuss the system outside of that culture has little meaning unless you identify that it is a hypothetical discussion, which the writer did not do. Therefore in order to fully discuss the ramifications of such a move one much understand the culture and taboos that it is being introduced to. Transfering the system to an outside culture really holds no bearing on how it will effect the culture its introduced to since they do not share the same viewpoints. (Wow how many times can I type culture in one paragraph )
Neither did I call people racist or Ignorent. Ignorance means to "not know better" which is not the case here. Just because people can not or will not look at things from a different view point neither makes them racist or ignorent. Just human and stubbon. Racist is very specific and I am not suggesting anyone here is racist. Ignorance is not knowing any better and I am working under the assumption that we are all adults here and have an understanding of empathy and trying to understand how the other side feels. So its not ignorance at all (Except maby for the very small minority here have not yet developed empathy for others and indeed need to rush to a shrink ASAP and get humanized!) Being unwilling to show empathy for another is neither racist or ignorent .. its cold .. its stubbon .. its human .. and yes I am accusing people who refuse to look at the other side of the coin as this. I've even admitted that I myself am guilty of refusing to see the other side at times .. we all do it we're human.
Yes people express opinions. Much as I am here. Difference is I try (Not saying I always succeed) but I try to see the other person, Culture, whatever's, point of view before I answer. This is something the OP did not do and I see nothing from the OP but a bias rant. He never explored the other side of the coin. Bare in mind he was paid for his article so I dont view it as a single mans opinion since it was sanctioned by this website and thus they own it.
In your opinion the OP is providing an opinion. Now that would be true if he was just another poster like you an me. He however was paid for an article and hence the website here has ownership of that. Hes representing them and they have to take ownership of that. Thats beside the point tho. Even if he was a single poster his level of bias is extreem. He wrote an article with out clarfiying that it has no impact on the western market (even though he was writing the article FOR the western market) and he took no effort to interview the people directly effected by this new system. For all was know the new system was screamed for by Chinese gamers and it a welcome addition to them. All we got from the article was a scare attempt that garnered the responces the OP was hoping for .. namly *not in my game* *rubbish in the west* etc etc. Of course he hoped for these responces and a high post count ... but the bottom line is this was never about the western game market. He could have made an interesting article sparking debate about why this would be a bad thing in the west, why it was a happening in China, what cultural differences can we see from this? Instead he turned to hate-mongering about those "Crazy Chinese" and waited for his post count .. blar.
That policy is stupid, its an epic failure, it will cost a lot of money for the company. Whatever culture you are in a Role-Playing Game is a Role-Playing Game. end of story.
A role-playing game (RPG; often roleplaying game) is a game in which the participants assume the roles of fictional characters.
Hate to break it to you but not all the world follows your world view. Where as i do accept that there are deffinate basic human rights that has nothing to do with trying to view a decison like this from another cultures viewpoint. While I mention human rights I should point out that Guantanamo Bay is a deffinate violation of human rights .. so dont get holier than thou with me about human rights when I bet you turn a blind eye to that since suspected terrorists "dont count" k?
No, I agree with you. It's abominable. If they are guilty of anything, give them a trial, present the evidence, and let a jury decide. If you don't have enough evidence to convict, you have no right to hold them. And, certainly, no right to torture. During WW2, the Allies got valuable intelligence out of captured Nazi POW's *without* torture or inhumane treatment, so the same techniques can and will work on captured terrorists.
Accepting that different parts of the world view things differently does not mean that you have to accept "everything" that culture embraces.
But what's your formula? What's your TEST? It sounds to me like all you have is a set of whims and feelings. "I like this". "I don't like that". How do you convince someone who disagrees with you that you're drawing the line in the right place? How do you convince someone doing something you think is wrong THAT what they're doing is wrong?
How do you decide what are trivial cultural practices and what are genuine moral issues?
Since you're going to ask, I begin with one premise: We own ourselves. Everything I believe follows from that. If you dispute that premise, you must tell me first who owns you and how they took possession.
You should be careful about judging others though .. unless you have a full understanding of the situation its very difficult to put yourself in another shoes and feel total empathy for what they were going through and the situation at hand. Juse because you dont feel something is right does not make it so ... bottom line.
And just because something is "what a culture does" doesn't make it right. As the great Opus the Penguin wrote, "Just because a million people do a stupid thing, doesn't mean it's not a stupid thing."
Most people it seems cant read through Bias, so I guess I am wasting my time here. I dont want people to agree with the "prove your sex policy" or disagree with it. I want people to educate themselves, find out why they would impliment such and thing and find out its ramifications on the chinese player base and THEN draw a conclusion as to wether its a good or bad thing for the CHINESE player base (not for you personally since it has no effect on you personally) I want people to look past bias look past culture and self-educate. Should be easy with the inter-webz at your fingertips no?
Sometimes, this is valuable. Other times, it's a waste of time. Even if the Chinese like it, it's STILL a stupid thing. Americans like a lot of stupid things, too. *I* like a lot of stupid things. I mean, I spend time posting not just on Internet message boards, but on MMORPG.com, which is, let's face it, one step above 4Chan when it comes to hoping for any kind of intelligent response.
Oh, please, spare me this PC nonsense. When someone murders their daughter because she "shamed" their family by being seen with 2 square inches of skin showing, I don't want to be told, "Oh, we must be tolerant of other cultures and not impose our point of view on them." As far as I'm concerned, MY culture allows me to strangle anyone who says that with their own intestines. Don't agree? Too bad, you've already undermined any counter-argument you can make.
That's a retarded analogy! There's a big difference between a gaming company in china doing whatever the hell they want with their own product, which is subject to the local consumers actually making it a success, and a murderous religious group’s actions. In this case, NO. No one from another culture has the right to dictate their own ethics onto another’s entertainment products, as you suggest. I bet you have a char named Lizzy don't you?
Nope. I have never played a female character in an online game, actually, mostly because I don't want horny idiots IMing me all the time. I do sometimes play females in paper&pencil RPGs, about 25% of the time, I'd guess.
Did you, by the way, read BEYOND the paragraph you quoted? Or did you just get all internet-flamey and reply without reading the bit where I said it was not a valid comparison and that a private company has the right to make whatever stupid decisions it wants, and I have the right to say they're stupid?
I find it interesting that most people on this forum seem to think, "If someone says this is dumb, it means he wants to force people to do things his way!" I think that says a lot about the mentality of the people who post here, and it's not very flattering. It is very possible -- essential in a free society -- to completely disapprove of things some people do while accepting that they must have the freedom to do them. If it were up to me, an awful lot of things which are currently illegal, and which I personally think are immoral or self-destructive, would be legal, because even if I don't like them, I don't have the right (nor does the government, acting as my proxy) to stop them.
Hell, look at your own reply. If I support cross-gender gaming, it MUST be because I do it, right? It's very... revealing. It would seem you can't imagine supporting something on the basis of principle or philosophy. In your world, apparently, one only supports or approves what one personally does.
Comments
I personally don't give a crap whether the toons are male or female IRL because I'm not going to cyber with them anyway.
Most of the time I create females myself, because 1) I like watching the backside, and 2) I am no longer immersed by any game to the point that I believe I am my character.
Point 1 - "Show me your pussy or you can't play"
Odd but i did'ent see that anywhere. The method of proof required was'ent stated because the writer could'ent bother his lazy arse to do some research. As far as we know all it requires is a valid credit card (Your sex is linked to your credit card account btw) Your just taking the worst possible case and running with it, the same as the OP infured. Its called media-hype .. learn to see past it.
Point 2 - "Can't play"
/sigh Did you even read the artical at all? Female gamers are free to play males with no sex verification required. So to say they can't play if they dont verify it totally wrong again. Discrimination against women? Ok so lets get this straight. Woman can play male characters no problems as can males. Women who verify thier sex (Again ... less of the show us your pussy talk and be reasonable .. credit card? Passport? Fucking DRIVERS LICENSE?) can play females but males never can. According to you thats discrimination against women? Err ok, rock on genius.
Point 1- Maybe you should read the article. Here's a quote from the OP:
This company cares so deeply that not only are they freezing the accounts of any male players who may have happened to have created female toons, but they are even going so far as to require "gamers who chose female characters to prove their biological sex with a webcam."
Point 2- Anyone playing a female toon must show proof of their gender. Since males are excluded from playing female toons as is their policy, only women wishing to play a female toon would be subjected to this policy. So yes it is discriminatory. Back at you, genius.
Point 1 -
but they are even going so far as to require "gamers who chose female characters to prove their biological sex with a webcam."
And from this you get "show them your pussy"? Not smile infront of a webcam? Not show your passport to the webcam? Your an odd person. Maby they want you to sit at a webcam and show ID to prevent you having your sister or neighbour sit there for you? Maby they would like to see a picture of your ID and you together to ensure there was no scam? OMG way to far fetched .. obviously they just want to see your pussy. I think your the one being a little extrem here no?
Instead of jumping on the "omg chinese are the debil" band wagon you may wanna try and look past the bias in the article, Its written to cause outrage to the reader (Western game player) and if you cant tell that then you should have stayed on in school past 3rd grade. Your refusing to look at it from any view point other than your own massivly biased one though, so any argument directed towards you is like talking to a wall.
Point 2 -
Ahh. So exclusion totally is not discrimination where as proving you are what you say you are is? Thats your point?
You can't ride the ride unless your 5' ... so if your under 5' thats not discrimination but if your over 5' and have to pass the nice hight line that is discrimination? Rite?
Hate to say it matey but your gonna be asked to prove your who you say you are alot as you go through life. Thats not discrimination though thats just the way the world works. A game company doing this is not a far strech to me. My CC company insisted that I was who I said I was before they gave me a line of credit .. should I sue since they discriminated against me by making me prove it?
The fact that females have the option to play a female Avatar and males do not ever have that option means that the discrimination is on the male side. Maby you shold google discrimination.
"Discriminatory behaviours take many forms, but they all involve some form of exclusion or rejection"
Odd but its the males in this case that are excluded or rejected .. the females, as long as they abide by the game's rules (Proving they are female) are not excluded. Now if you want to bring up some anal argument about the game rules being sexist because women have to prove they are who they say they are then we can go around in circles somemore. Bottom line is though that your not looking at it from thier cultural perspective .. 106 men - 100 women. Dont sound alot does it? With a population of 1.3 billion though that means around 400.000 males in china are destined not to find a mate ... opens a whole world of online scams if you can "pretend" to be a single female looking for a husband among a slew of young single chinese males online huh?
Thats not to say that this is the reason for this move, I am just more inclined to look for reasons why they would feel this is a good thing to do rather than assume that they simply want to see some pussy (Which after all they can find in seconds with a half decent browser .. although its prob censored knowing the chineses gov.)
Back at ya, Genius.
Point 1 - "Show me your pussy or you can't play"
Odd but i did'ent see that anywhere. The method of proof required was'ent stated because the writer could'ent bother his lazy arse to do some research. As far as we know all it requires is a valid credit card (Your sex is linked to your credit card account btw) Your just taking the worst possible case and running with it, the same as the OP infured. Its called media-hype .. learn to see past it.
Point 2 - "Can't play"
/sigh Did you even read the artical at all? Female gamers are free to play males with no sex verification required. So to say they can't play if they dont verify it totally wrong again. Discrimination against women? Ok so lets get this straight. Woman can play male characters no problems as can males. Women who verify thier sex (Again ... less of the show us your pussy talk and be reasonable .. credit card? Passport? Fucking DRIVERS LICENSE?) can play females but males never can. According to you thats discrimination against women? Err ok, rock on genius.
Point 1- Maybe you should read the article. Here's a quote from the OP:
This company cares so deeply that not only are they freezing the accounts of any male players who may have happened to have created female toons, but they are even going so far as to require "gamers who chose female characters to prove their biological sex with a webcam."
Taking a webcam shot of you holding your Driver's License or other Government I.D. is a perfectly valid way of proving your Biological Sex. Quite a few dating sites require that sort of proof.
I don't get the mentality of people reading that line and then suddenly jumping to, "Show us your goodies!". I guess that's just the mindset of America?
Seeing as MMOs to the Chinese are roughly equivalent to social networking sites in the USA, I don't honestly see it as that big an issue.
Point 2- Anyone playing a female toon must show proof of their gender. Since males are excluded from playing female toons as is their policy, only women wishing to play a female toon would be subjected to this policy. So yes it is discriminatory. Back at you, genius.
It's discriminatory, but it's also necessary where the margin of male population in the country means that a very good number of men are going to live lonely lives. You know, since the whole government is freakishly homophobic.
Honestly, it's even more discriminatory to men. This is sort of a subversive way of routing out what they view as, "homosexual, or deviant sexual behaviour". Women being discriminated against is more or less collateral damage.
Besides, we're talking about the country, that not even 50 years ago is was common practice to bind women's feet so that they couldn't travel far or run away without a man's help.
Mne eto nado kak zuby v zadnitse.
Oh wow, just wow. I want to see how long this will fly before profits go through the floor! I'mma gal, I like to play male toons because their armor looks better (how about a rant on that? Why do the chick toons look so flippin punny!! Give me a buff Chick, damned it!). Even though I would be exempt from this absurdly rediculous & strangely child-like rule....why would I support a gaming company with such a rule? It goes against my principle of live & let live. If any game I play suddenly institutes this rule of "prove your sex", they won't be getting my support anymore.
Anyways, I would never expect to see this in todays world, but since we are seeing it....as the dude put it "thomeone has thexuality ithues!" Totally. Someone tell that CEO to go get some theropy so he will stop taking it out on the people that flipping pay him his paycheck. Wow, just wow.
Moo. There. Are you happy now?
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Don't feed the trolls. If you must comment, consider participating in a long held internet tradition of responding to trolls with random discussions about food. Elk Jelly anyone?
This is such a juvenile post, do you feel better?
First of all I really have no care about the Chinese one way or the other it makes no difference to me ( I do like Bruce Lee). What they do doesn't have an impact on "most" of my daily life. I however have a hard time discerning exactly how you're pulling some kind of racist message from this discussion. You're definitely not thinking every point you're making through. Sure someone can sit in front of a cam hold up an I.D. and pass the test so to speak. In this day and age that means absolute squat. Which is what the author was getting at and I think you missed that part. There's no way to know if the she is a he even if you do check in the nether regions. This is a Pandora's box imo, open it and you're in for all kinds of surprises.
I seriously doubt anyone seriously thinks they would expect you to pull up your skirt, it's the purpose itself that is insanely ridiculous. There's no way to know whether she used to be a he, or she may even become a he. That's society today, no matter where in the world you are.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Oh, please, spare me this PC nonsense.
When someone murders their daughter because she "shamed" their family by being seen with 2 square inches of skin showing, I don't want to be told, "Oh, we must be tolerant of other cultures and not impose our point of view on them." As far as I'm concerned, MY culture allows me to strangle anyone who says that with their own intestines. Don't agree? Too bad, you've already undermined any counter-argument you can make.
And, no, banning people from online games isn't the same as murder. However, once you begin with the "We mustn't judge other cultures" crap, the slope is pretty darn slippery and I've never encountered anyone who can define a point where they say, "OK, it's safe to judge them now." Either there are absolute human rights which no culture should violate, regardless of their "traditions" or "beliefs", or everything's fair game. Is there an absolute human right to play an RPG? No -- these are private games and if a game company wants to mandate that you can only play if you're a brown-haired Taurus with no beard, then, that's their right. However, the fact they've got a right to do it doesn't mean I can't say, "Damn, that's STUPID."
The game company has a right to set whatever rules they wish for access to their property. And everyone else has a right to call them fracking morons for doing so and point, laugh, and jeer at them. (And to do the same to anyone who squeaks about 'tolerance' and 'understanding'. They're MORONS. Period.)
Haha talk about taking it to the limit.
Hate to break it to you but not all the world follows your world view. Where as i do accept that there are deffinate basic human rights that has nothing to do with trying to view a decison like this from another cultures viewpoint. While I mention human rights I should point out that Guantanamo Bay is a deffinate violation of human rights .. so dont get holier than thou with me about human rights when I bet you turn a blind eye to that since suspected terrorists "dont count" k?
Accepting that different parts of the world view things differently does not mean that you have to accept "everything" that culture embraces. For example I am not too fond of lopping peoples hands off for theiving yet I cant deny that theft is rarer where they do ... thats an extrem example a more mild one is that a certian country in Europe insists that all male citizens serve "National service" and after service they are assigned an assult rifle ... near every home in said county has an assult rifle and a trained male user inside. I dont agree with that either .. although I cant deny that violent crime there is the lowest in Europe. Neither have anything to do with the rules of a video game though !!!
Cultural differences are what make the world an interesting place to live in. Embracing them enriches us all. Thats not to say that I like the Chinese Gov. Its a totalitarian regim and has masses of flaws .. but culture is more than just govenment and laws.
You should be careful about judging others though .. unless you have a full understanding of the situation its very difficult to put yourself in another shoes and feel total empathy for what they were going through and the situation at hand. Juse because you dont feel something is right does not make it so ... bottom line.
Saying all of that .. sure you can say "damm thats stupid" all you want. My issue with the article and the writer is he made no attempt to garner any input from the people it does effect. Where is the outrages chinese gameplayer quoted? For all we here in the west know its a welcome addition in China and they are very happy to see it. Thats my point about culture difference. I read the article and thought .. OP is an idiot, hes massivly biased and made no attempt to educate himself in anyway about how this impacted the people effected. He wrote the story with vague inuendos (Hence the droves of "they just wanna see the pussys" threads) and stired up his target audiance.
This was never a suggested "feature" for the western market (Although the OP never bothered to mention that the company has made no indication that it ever intends to add this to any western launch) yet the OP knew the reaction it would garner. Instead of making his article useful and suggesting a discussion about why this would never work for a western market, or suggesting reasons why the chinese market would entertain this ider, he left it vague in order to stir people up. As is evidenced by the posts in this thread about how silly an ider it is and how the western market wont stand for it .. not in my game .. etc etc. No shit. The article is media-hype to garner a negitive responce from the reader-base. And it has. +1 point OP.
Most people it seems cant read through Bias, so I guess I am wasting my time here. I dont want people to agree with the "prove your sex policy" or disagree with it. I want people to educate themselves, find out why they would impliment such and thing and find out its ramifications on the chinese player base and THEN draw a conclusion as to wether its a good or bad thing for the CHINESE player base (not for you personally since it has no effect on you personally) I want people to look past bias look past culture and self-educate. Should be easy with the inter-webz at your fingertips no?
Since about 3/4 of all female avatars are played by male players I just consider all of them male until proven otherwise.
Never understood the male proclivity to playing a female avatar.
Mne eto nado kak zuby v zadnitse.
MMORPG - Many Men Online, Role Playing Girls
GIRL - Guy In Real Life
Words to live by when dealing with female avatars in online games.
I could care less, I usually play male characters, but have rolled a few female ones from time to time. (but never try pretend to be female in any way)
Lots of reasons why this company might have wanted to enforce such a rule, most of us wouldn't agree with it and therefore won't play the game..
Interesting topic to discuss, and an entertaining thread to read even though it took quite a while. (slow day at work fortunately)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This is such a juvenile post, do you feel better?
First of all I really have no care about the Chinese one way or the other it makes no difference to me ( I do like Bruce Lee). What they do doesn't have an impact on "most" of my daily life. I however have a hard time discerning exactly how you're pulling some kind of racist message from this discussion. You're definitely not thinking every point you're making through. Sure someone can sit in front of a cam hold up an I.D. and pass the test so to speak. In this day and age that means absolute squat. Which is what the author was getting at and I think you missed that part. There's no way to know if the she is a he even if you do check in the nether regions. This is a Pandora's box imo, open it and you're in for all kinds of surprises.
I seriously doubt anyone seriously thinks they would expect you to pull up your skirt, it's the purpose itself that is insanely ridiculous. There's no way to know whether she used to be a he, or she may even become a he. That's society today, no matter where in the world you are.
Feel better? Naw I am here on my day off supping some beers and shooting the shit online. Feelings have little to do with it. Juvenile? heh no comment there since I was only answering your post in the method you chose to answer mine mate.
You have no care what the Chinese do? Thats interesting to me since they hold the purse strings of America. Yup America is so far in debt to China if they called in the tab we'd all be eating moo-shoo next week.
I dont think your racist at all. I'm pretty sure I never even implyed that either. If you did take it as me calling you a racist I apologize and assure you that at no point was that my intention. As far as I can tell you do not strike me as racist .. you just refuse to see things from another cultures view point. That does not make you racist at all. Its a common thing that people find it difficult to see other peoples perspective on things. Hell alot of the time even I dont (or refuse to) see things from anothers view point. That does not make me racist just human.
On the other hand I make a point of trying to see things from others view points and trying to take on board another cultures ideals and messages .. not because I agree with everything they say or think .. simply because it helps me understand them and try to reason / debate with them on a more sound footing.
As for the proof of sex thing .. sure a webcam + Photo ID is not 100% foolproof scammer free .. but its a step towards what they seem to want which is a verification of sex.
The real discussion here should not be that this company wants a verification of sex from female gamers. It should be WHY does the company want that verification. Thats the real story here. The OP of course was just looking for a decent post count for his article and never really bothered to look past the sensationalism of "Chinese game Co. Wants a look at your pussy!!*
Dude the girls you know need to quit playing with little boys. Seriously I have been part of a bunch of guilds/corporations, I have run about half of them and ALL of them had a strict female friendly policy. The groups also have PG limit on chat so that could be part of it.
A mature gaming group does not care if the player is male or female.
=============================
I have a soap box and I am not afraid to use it.
First of all there will be no showing of vaginas, that is complete fabrication. Second of all you are required to show proof of your gender in many kinds of activities, inluding sports, so this is unheard of.
Also it cannot be considered discrimiation since males (trying to play female chars) will need to prove their gender as well. This is just getting blown way out of proportion. The check could simply be to check the gender of the person holding the credit card or registered as account owner. Who knows and why is it so important?
They provide a service and you are required to not misrepresent your true gender. Dont like it then dont use their service. In many sports you are required to prove your gender, dont like it then dont participate.
My gaming blog
I don't give a crap what other people play as, I just don't want to play as a woman. Which sucks in games like Diablo and Borderlands where your class and your sex are tied together.
"It is in your nature to do one thing correctly; Before me, you rightfully tremble. But, fear is not what you owe me. You owe me awe." ~Francis Dolarhyde
Feel better? Naw I am here on my day off supping some beers and shooting the shit online. Feelings have little to do with it. Juvenile? heh no comment there since I was only answering your post in the method you chose to answer mine mate.
You have no care what the Chinese do? Thats interesting to me since they hold the purse strings of America. Yup America is so far in debt to China if they called in the tab we'd all be eating moo-shoo next week.
I dont think your racist at all. I'm pretty sure I never even implyed that either. If you did take it as me calling you a racist I apologize and assure you that at no point was that my intention. As far as I can tell you do not strike me as racist .. you just refuse to see things from another cultures view point. That does not make you racist at all. Its a common thing that people find it difficult to see other peoples perspective on things. Hell alot of the time even I dont (or refuse to) see things from anothers view point. That does not make me racist just human.
On the other hand I make a point of trying to see things from others view points and trying to take on board another cultures ideals and messages .. not because I agree with everything they say or think .. simply because it helps me understand them and try to reason / debate with them on a more sound footing.
As for the proof of sex thing .. sure a webcam + Photo ID is not 100% foolproof scammer free .. but its a step towards what they seem to want which is a verification of sex.
The real discussion here should not be that this company wants a verification of sex from female gamers. It should be WHY does the company want that verification. Thats the real story here. The OP of course was just looking for a decent post count for his article and never really bothered to look past the sensationalism of "Chinese game Co. Wants a look at your pussy!!*
Sure if this had been an article I'd expect some research into it's purposes. The problem is, this was not an article this was an opinion. Understanding their culture is pretty much irrelevant to the discussion. Also say I did understand their culture which i do to an extent, and yes i know all about my countries relationship with china. If there's anything to note it's that their culture is about 100 times more productive than ours. That again is irrelevant to the discussion.
Maybe you're not calling people racist, you are implying ignorance in the worst sense of the word. Simply because people are doing what they do (express opinions). That in and of itself is short sighted and not much different than what you are accusing others of.
In my opinion the OP is simply providing an opinion on their policy, regardless of their motivation. Because there are so many holes in the logic behind what they are doing.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Point 1- Maybe you should read the article. Here's a quote from the OP:
This company cares so deeply that not only are they freezing the accounts of any male players who may have happened to have created female toons, but they are even going so far as to require "gamers who chose female characters to prove their biological sex with a webcam."
And it is vaginas that are to be shown in webcam? Hm, could it be your passport where your gender is clearly specified? I dunno, which makes more sense?
Point 2- Anyone playing a female toon must show proof of their gender. Since males are excluded from playing female toons as is their policy, only women wishing to play a female toon would be subjected to this policy. So yes it is discriminatory. Back at you, genius.
Nonsense. Girls are free to play male or female characters it is males who are not free to play female characters. Whatever individual, male or female, who created a female character needs to show that they are indeed females and those that are males are kicked out. So if anything it is the males who are being discriminated.
But as usual you rabid feminist try to make a sexist case from something which isnt-
My gaming blog
Oh, please, spare me this PC nonsense.
When someone murders their daughter because she "shamed" their family by being seen with 2 square inches of skin showing, I don't want to be told, "Oh, we must be tolerant of other cultures and not impose our point of view on them." As far as I'm concerned, MY culture allows me to strangle anyone who says that with their own intestines. Don't agree? Too bad, you've already undermined any counter-argument you can make.
That's a retarded analogy! There's a big difference between a gaming company in china doing whatever the hell they want with their own product, which is subject to the local consumers actually making it a success, and a murderous religious group’s actions. In this case, NO. No one from another culture has the right to dictate their own ethics onto another’s entertainment products, as you suggest. I bet you have a char named Lizzy don't you?
I have lots of male and female toons in many different games. In most cases, such as my female human DK in WoW, I personally dislike the way that the male humans look and like the females better. I am the one that has to sit there and stare at my toon every time I play, why wouldn't I rather have an avatar that is more aesthetically pleasing. That means nothing whatsoever about my sexual preference or intentions- everyone I know knows who I am and who my characters are, and that's all that matters. In fact, we have many females in our guild, but twice as many female toons because many of the guys play them as well.
That said, I do agree with Ozmodan that I just assume that everyone I encounter in game, male or female, is a male until I learn otherwise ( I admit that I have come across a few who have been deceptive about age or gender). Overall, I couldn't care less. It's just an avatar, and it's just a game.
Seeing stupid stuff like this (and the arguments that follow it) remind me of my own MMO experiences.
For the record, my characters tend to be either gender, following a 50/50 ratio. Now does that somehow make me bisexual? Or perhaps sexually insecure? Strangely enough, it doesn't.
There's absolutely no reason to harp on people playing an avatar of the opposite gender. Notice that this is quite different from someone pretending to be something he's not for dubious reasons (such as getting free stuff, having fun at someone's expense, etc)
I think the problem stems from people who equate avatar gender with real gender and/or sexual orientation. To give you a very concrete example, lets go back in time when I was in the Meridian 59 beta (yep, a long time ago in MMO history).
I had made a female avatar named Red Sonja. Never once did I roleplay, I simply interacted with people the same way I do in real life. Yet somehow within a week I had received three marriage proposals because people interpreted me being sociable and generally nice to others as being a woman. Truly silly thinking, and a sign that some people take online interaction WAY too seriously.
I never led anyone on, I never lied to anyone, I never pretended to be a woman, I simply (naively) assumed people wouldn't try to hit on others. All the avatar gender insecurity comes from these types of people: it's the internet, there's no way to tell who you're dealing with at first glance. Whether they're male or female, pedophiles, racists, terrorists, policemen, the Pope or the President of the United States.
So people, stop assuming stuff about strangers and just enjoy the game you're playing. Internet friendship will never beat real life friendship, try it on for size.
Does this surprise anyone? The Chinese Government loves to put on a show for the outside world as to how far they have come...ie the Olympics, but the World knows better. They are a Communist country that controls every aspect of their citizens lives... At some point, the people will grow tired of it, and the internet will be the catalyst.
Feel better? Naw I am here on my day off supping some beers and shooting the shit online. Feelings have little to do with it. Juvenile? heh no comment there since I was only answering your post in the method you chose to answer mine mate.
You have no care what the Chinese do? Thats interesting to me since they hold the purse strings of America. Yup America is so far in debt to China if they called in the tab we'd all be eating moo-shoo next week.
I dont think your racist at all. I'm pretty sure I never even implyed that either. If you did take it as me calling you a racist I apologize and assure you that at no point was that my intention. As far as I can tell you do not strike me as racist .. you just refuse to see things from another cultures view point. That does not make you racist at all. Its a common thing that people find it difficult to see other peoples perspective on things. Hell alot of the time even I dont (or refuse to) see things from anothers view point. That does not make me racist just human.
On the other hand I make a point of trying to see things from others view points and trying to take on board another cultures ideals and messages .. not because I agree with everything they say or think .. simply because it helps me understand them and try to reason / debate with them on a more sound footing.
As for the proof of sex thing .. sure a webcam + Photo ID is not 100% foolproof scammer free .. but its a step towards what they seem to want which is a verification of sex.
The real discussion here should not be that this company wants a verification of sex from female gamers. It should be WHY does the company want that verification. Thats the real story here. The OP of course was just looking for a decent post count for his article and never really bothered to look past the sensationalism of "Chinese game Co. Wants a look at your pussy!!*
Sure if this had been an article I'd expect some research into it's purposes. The problem is, this was not an article this was an opinion. Understanding their culture is pretty much irrelevant to the discussion. Also say I did understand their culture which i do to an extent, and yes i know all about my countries relationship with china. If there's anything to note it's that their culture is about 100 times more productive than ours. That again is irrelevant to the discussion.
Maybe you're not calling people racist, you are implying ignorance in the worst sense of the word. Simply because people are doing what they do (express opinions). That in and of itself is short sighted and not much different than what you are accusing others of.
In my opinion the OP is simply providing an opinion on their policy, regardless of their motivation. Because there are so many holes in the logic behind what they are doing.
Ok to dissect your reply.
Personally I view it as an Article. Its supported by the website and posted by one of thier paid writers. Its may or may not be the opinion of some or all of the writers here but since its a paid for piece of work, published by this site to the public it is to me, an article. Much like an article in any newspaper. As such I would expect a certian amount of research to go into said piece and would expect the author to be able to back-up thier facts with proof of some kind.
Understanding thier culture as a whole is indeed irrelivent to the article. However understanding thier culture in relation to the content is relivent. Understanding how the system being discussed (The proof of sex) impacts the culture and why such a measure may or may not be received within said culture has a major impact on the article. Since the system being discussed (Proof of sex) is only for the Chinese market and no other (At this time) surly if you are going to discuss that system you have to do so within the culture that it is being introduced. To discuss the system outside of that culture has little meaning unless you identify that it is a hypothetical discussion, which the writer did not do. Therefore in order to fully discuss the ramifications of such a move one much understand the culture and taboos that it is being introduced to. Transfering the system to an outside culture really holds no bearing on how it will effect the culture its introduced to since they do not share the same viewpoints. (Wow how many times can I type culture in one paragraph
)
Neither did I call people racist or Ignorent. Ignorance means to "not know better" which is not the case here. Just because people can not or will not look at things from a different view point neither makes them racist or ignorent. Just human and stubbon. Racist is very specific and I am not suggesting anyone here is racist. Ignorance is not knowing any better and I am working under the assumption that we are all adults here and have an understanding of empathy and trying to understand how the other side feels. So its not ignorance at all (Except maby for the very small minority here have not yet developed empathy for others and indeed need to rush to a shrink ASAP and get humanized!) Being unwilling to show empathy for another is neither racist or ignorent .. its cold .. its stubbon .. its human .. and yes I am accusing people who refuse to look at the other side of the coin as this. I've even admitted that I myself am guilty of refusing to see the other side at times .. we all do it we're human.
Yes people express opinions. Much as I am here. Difference is I try (Not saying I always succeed) but I try to see the other person, Culture, whatever's, point of view before I answer. This is something the OP did not do and I see nothing from the OP but a bias rant. He never explored the other side of the coin. Bare in mind he was paid for his article so I dont view it as a single mans opinion since it was sanctioned by this website and thus they own it.
In your opinion the OP is providing an opinion. Now that would be true if he was just another poster like you an me. He however was paid for an article and hence the website here has ownership of that. Hes representing them and they have to take ownership of that. Thats beside the point tho. Even if he was a single poster his level of bias is extreem. He wrote an article with out clarfiying that it has no impact on the western market (even though he was writing the article FOR the western market) and he took no effort to interview the people directly effected by this new system. For all was know the new system was screamed for by Chinese gamers and it a welcome addition to them. All we got from the article was a scare attempt that garnered the responces the OP was hoping for .. namly *not in my game* *rubbish in the west* etc etc. Of course he hoped for these responces and a high post count ... but the bottom line is this was never about the western game market. He could have made an interesting article sparking debate about why this would be a bad thing in the west, why it was a happening in China, what cultural differences can we see from this? Instead he turned to hate-mongering about those "Crazy Chinese" and waited for his post count .. blar.
That policy is stupid, its an epic failure, it will cost a lot of money for the company. Whatever culture you are in a Role-Playing Game is a Role-Playing Game. end of story.
A role-playing game (RPG; often roleplaying game) is a game in which the participants assume the roles of fictional characters.
Haha talk about taking it to the limit.
Hate to break it to you but not all the world follows your world view. Where as i do accept that there are deffinate basic human rights that has nothing to do with trying to view a decison like this from another cultures viewpoint. While I mention human rights I should point out that Guantanamo Bay is a deffinate violation of human rights .. so dont get holier than thou with me about human rights when I bet you turn a blind eye to that since suspected terrorists "dont count" k?
No, I agree with you. It's abominable. If they are guilty of anything, give them a trial, present the evidence, and let a jury decide. If you don't have enough evidence to convict, you have no right to hold them. And, certainly, no right to torture. During WW2, the Allies got valuable intelligence out of captured Nazi POW's *without* torture or inhumane treatment, so the same techniques can and will work on captured terrorists.
Accepting that different parts of the world view things differently does not mean that you have to accept "everything" that culture embraces.
But what's your formula? What's your TEST? It sounds to me like all you have is a set of whims and feelings. "I like this". "I don't like that". How do you convince someone who disagrees with you that you're drawing the line in the right place? How do you convince someone doing something you think is wrong THAT what they're doing is wrong?
How do you decide what are trivial cultural practices and what are genuine moral issues?
Since you're going to ask, I begin with one premise: We own ourselves. Everything I believe follows from that. If you dispute that premise, you must tell me first who owns you and how they took possession.
You should be careful about judging others though .. unless you have a full understanding of the situation its very difficult to put yourself in another shoes and feel total empathy for what they were going through and the situation at hand. Juse because you dont feel something is right does not make it so ... bottom line.
And just because something is "what a culture does" doesn't make it right. As the great Opus the Penguin wrote, "Just because a million people do a stupid thing, doesn't mean it's not a stupid thing."
Most people it seems cant read through Bias, so I guess I am wasting my time here. I dont want people to agree with the "prove your sex policy" or disagree with it. I want people to educate themselves, find out why they would impliment such and thing and find out its ramifications on the chinese player base and THEN draw a conclusion as to wether its a good or bad thing for the CHINESE player base (not for you personally since it has no effect on you personally) I want people to look past bias look past culture and self-educate. Should be easy with the inter-webz at your fingertips no?
Sometimes, this is valuable. Other times, it's a waste of time. Even if the Chinese like it, it's STILL a stupid thing. Americans like a lot of stupid things, too. *I* like a lot of stupid things. I mean, I spend time posting not just on Internet message boards, but on MMORPG.com, which is, let's face it, one step above 4Chan when it comes to hoping for any kind of intelligent response.
This rule crack me up. I ONLY play with fem characters..lol.... I dont give a fuck for what those dog eaters think, they are communists...
Go to hell!
That's a retarded analogy! There's a big difference between a gaming company in china doing whatever the hell they want with their own product, which is subject to the local consumers actually making it a success, and a murderous religious group’s actions. In this case, NO. No one from another culture has the right to dictate their own ethics onto another’s entertainment products, as you suggest. I bet you have a char named Lizzy don't you?
Nope. I have never played a female character in an online game, actually, mostly because I don't want horny idiots IMing me all the time. I do sometimes play females in paper&pencil RPGs, about 25% of the time, I'd guess.
Did you, by the way, read BEYOND the paragraph you quoted? Or did you just get all internet-flamey and reply without reading the bit where I said it was not a valid comparison and that a private company has the right to make whatever stupid decisions it wants, and I have the right to say they're stupid?
I find it interesting that most people on this forum seem to think, "If someone says this is dumb, it means he wants to force people to do things his way!" I think that says a lot about the mentality of the people who post here, and it's not very flattering. It is very possible -- essential in a free society -- to completely disapprove of things some people do while accepting that they must have the freedom to do them. If it were up to me, an awful lot of things which are currently illegal, and which I personally think are immoral or self-destructive, would be legal, because even if I don't like them, I don't have the right (nor does the government, acting as my proxy) to stop them.
Hell, look at your own reply. If I support cross-gender gaming, it MUST be because I do it, right? It's very... revealing. It would seem you can't imagine supporting something on the basis of principle or philosophy. In your world, apparently, one only supports or approves what one personally does.
Fascinating. Sickening, but fascinating.