I can go with that. I did like downtimes when i was playing EQ. Other games have a little downtime but not as much though. I dont think ill ever forget the days of sitting and learning a language while we were waiting. Good idea.
Is this a joke? I play games to play games, not to sit around doing nothing.
This
Hell no to downtime.
I agreed. If i just want to socialize, i will go on a chat channel, not a MMORPG.
Plus, there is a guild channel that I can socialize any time I want to. This "community talk" is just baloney. I have more friends in WOW than when i was in EQ. There is already enough down-time when you are grouping up (particularly those raid grp that takes FOREVER to set up) and flying to the stone.
So for the pro downtime crowd; "do you only like to socialize when there is forced downtime? Do you socialize in games that don't have downtime?"
I've heard that if there is no downtime, then players will race through at breakneck speed, ignoring the social aspects of the game. Could that be that they don't like the forced downtime either?
Frankly, I am a RPer. All the guilds I am in are RP based and I have back stories for each of my characters. My current game, CO is about as minimal downtime as you can get. However, my groups still pause and look at the scenery. We chat, hang out, and generally have a good time. I knew none of these players before starting CO.
Downtime has little to do with the amount of socialization in a game. It's the people you meet and how you treat them.
Down time is a mechanic that is the bane of the soloer (notice their replies in this thread) and the grouper's friend. Sure, you can pause in a game if you want, but if there isn't enforced downtime a group won't pause, it will work feverishly to go through the content as quickly as possible, with little chance to really enjoy the encounter. Besides, downtime was more than a timesink, it had a strategic element as well. Good players learned to complete fights as effiicently as possible in order to reduce downtime. It also permitted certain classes to have buffs that reduced downtime making them desireable to group with (ie. Minstels in DAOC) Again, the solo crowd has always despised the mechnanic, but for those of us who understand (and want its benefits) I hope theres some games coming out that support the it.
I was in plenty of groups in DAoC where we built our group to minimize downtime, and chose mobs that would grant us the best xp/hr. Granted, you didn't have much downtime at that point, you the combat was slow enough and you had enough downtime to stimulate conversation. If it wasn't for the slow pace of combat and the small amounts of downtime, I'd of probably never got to know anyone in DAoC. How else would I? Approach a complete stranger and strike up a conversation with them? I don't do that in real life, so why would I in a game? Do you?
I remember very clearly out how boring combat was in DAoC and the downtime. I remember literally fighting a mob for 1-2 minutes, and he was equal level to me. After that, you had to rest to regain your endurance. It's probably a huge reason people grouped. Grouping allowed you till kill a lot faster, and other classes complimented yours, which made killing fast possible. Maybe it was the slow pace of combat, and not the downtime. Maybe it was both. But combat is fast-paced in MMORPG's now. Take WoW for example. I kill a mob within seconds. I don't have time to chat while killing, and the area is agro happy, so you don't want to sit around and chat. It'd be best to just go to a town or out of the way place where mobs aren't patrolling to chat, but then you aren't leveling up. Maybe it's none of the above. Maybe it's just the anti-social nature of most members of the community.
I won't pretend to have the answers, but I'm sure we can come up with and discuss some logical explanations.
So for the pro downtime crowd; "do you only like to socialize when there is forced downtime? Do you socialize in games that don't have downtime?" I've heard that if there is no downtime, then players will race through at breakneck speed, ignoring the social aspects of the game. Could that be that they don't like the forced downtime either? Frankly, I am a RPer. All the guilds I am in are RP based and I have back stories for each of my characters. My current game, CO is about as minimal downtime as you can get. However, my groups still pause and look at the scenery. We chat, hang out, and generally have a good time. I knew none of these players before starting CO. Downtime has little to do with the amount of socialization in a game. It's the people you meet and how you treat them. Keep downtime to a minimum.
Let's say you were with people who didn't want to stop and look at the scenery. Let's say that you couldn't find these people anywhere during your first month of CO, and the people you did see were in a rush to level. Would you still stop and look at the scenery, trying to spark up conversatio with people you don't know, or would you yourself concentrate on leveling up?
Maybe it's just the communities playing the game. Maybe some people will not stop to socialize no matter what, because they'd rather level. Maybe others will only stop and socialize if another person initiates it. Perhaps others will socialize if someone initiates it, but otherwise will look like any other person on the server: a person speed leveling through the game. Perhaps people who wish to socialize mistaken those who would also like to socialize for those who don't want to socialize, because everyone is running around doing their own thing and not chatting. The only chat you hear is on General, where people are making an ass of themselves.
Lots of things to ponder. I've played some later games where I've socialized some, but not in the same way as I did in DAoC. It was instead over General Chat, or Guild Chat, and nothing that deep, and mostly only arguments come up.
You know what type of downtime I miss? Battle Fatigue in SWG. I thought that had potential to be some of the best downtime out there. It wasn't crippling until high levels, and it promoted some socialization in the cantinas.
Is this a joke? I play games to play games, not to sit around doing nothing.
Socializing has always been a component of MMORPG's. Since you're playing MMORPG's, wouldn't it stand to reason that socializing during downtime IS playing the game? If you don't force people to socialize, they just won't. Path of least resistance. There are exceptions to this rule, because some people stand around and talk or duel, or whatever anyways, but the vast majority will mind their own business and will rarely stop and talk with each other. Socializing is part of online play, at least it is in my opinion.
If you want to socialize, you're gonna socialize. Having the game "force" you to socialize by turning off gameplay for a period of time is asinine.
The path of least resistance you speak of is players optimizing their desired vs. undesired activities. So if they're not socializing it's because they don't want to socialize. As a result, you still see lots and lots of socializing happening in MMORPGs from the players who want to socialize.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I played EQ many moons ago, and the down time was one of the reasons I stoped playing. Kill a mob for a couple minutes ... rest for 5 or 10 minutes. Rinse and repeat. I play MMOs to have fun and to socialize. I am never in a rush to get to the end game. I like to take my time and enjoy the ride so to speak. Guilds and chat are great ways to socialize during play. Forced downtime is not a good way for people to socialize, it's a good way for players to get bored and thats why they socialize.
I am a casual MMO gamer as well. I work full time, go to college, have 3 children, and am the DM for a local D&D group. My time spent playing MMOs is valuable to me. I want to actually play the game, not read a book while waiting for my health to come back.
If you don't force people to socialize, they just won't.
If a developer has socializing as a focus or concern, they create mechanics and locations to facilitate that. They don't force people to stop doing what they want to do in order to try to force people to socialize.
Nate, if you want to make a good game, then you create content for your target audience. If you want people to socialize and you find that you are creating mechanics to force them to do so, then you have failed in both areas of your content - the socialization part and the part they were enjoying until you imposed cookies and milk time on them.
UO didn't need any type of forced downtime, yet people would log in solely to sit around and BS with each other at the local tavern or player town. Why? Because content and mechanics were put in game to give players both places and reasons to just hang out and socialize. Players that wanted to go out hunting would go out hunting together. Players that wanted to hang out, spar, tell stories/jokes would do so.
You design mechanics to support the playstyle of your intended audience. You do not attract a different audience and then devise ways to enforce situations they do not want to be in, especially when it is right smack in the middle of the content they were having fun doing.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I don't think it is a good idea to put needless idle time inbetwen activities in the hope that it somehow stimulates conversation. I would rather games add elements into the gameplay that are worth talking about, stopping to dicuss strategies and things of that nature.
Give people an interesting topic and they will talk about it. Give people emtpy time that needs to be filled with something and the results are unpredictable.
^--- A much more logical approach and one that would appeal more to the socializer than enforced chat times.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Is this a joke? I play games to play games, not to sit around doing nothing.
Socializing has always been a component of MMORPG's. Since you're playing MMORPG's, wouldn't it stand to reason that socializing during downtime IS playing the game? If you don't force people to socialize, they just won't. Path of least resistance. There are exceptions to this rule, because some people stand around and talk or duel, or whatever anyways, but the vast majority will mind their own business and will rarely stop and talk with each other. Socializing is part of online play, at least it is in my opinion.
If you want to socialize, you're gonna socialize. Having the game "force" you to socialize by turning off gameplay for a period of time is asinine.
The path of least resistance you speak of is players optimizing their desired vs. undesired activities. So if they're not socializing it's because they don't want to socialize. As a result, you still see lots and lots of socializing happening in MMORPGs from the players who want to socialize.
You're simplifying and overgeneralized a problem that is much more complex than that. The posters in this thread have already proved this, by stating that they want to socialize, but the way games are built encourage people NOT to socialize the great majority of the time. Are you just going to ignore their words, because you don't agree with them?
Example: You're in a new school, you don't know anyone, and no one even looks at you. They walk right by you like you don't even exist. Even though you love to talk to people and socialize, are you going to just approach these strangers and strike up a conversation? Perhaps you will, but perhaps you're also a more outgoing person. There's all different personality types. There are some types of people, that love to socialize, but will not if they feel they're interrupting someone who's busy doing something else. Many organizations note this, and have icebreaker sessions, where they FORCE people to start talking with each other. After that, everything is okay, and people start to open up a lot more. So to ignore these facts and different types of people, and to generalize them and label them, and to ignore the very words in this thread is arrogant and ignorant.
If you don't force people to socialize, they just won't.
If a developer has socializing as a focus or concern, they create mechanics and locations to facilitate that. They don't force people to stop doing what they want to do in order to try to force people to socialize.
Nate, if you want to make a good game, then you create content for your target audience. If you want people to socialize and you find that you are creating mechanics to force them to do so, then you have failed in both areas of your content - the socialization part and the part they were enjoying until you imposed cookies and milk time on them.
UO didn't need any type of forced downtime, yet people would log in solely to sit around and BS with each other at the local tavern or player town. Why? Because content and mechanics were put in game to give players both places and reasons to just hang out and socialize. Players that wanted to go out hunting would go out hunting together. Players that wanted to hang out, spar, tell stories/jokes would do so.
You design mechanics to support the playstyle of your intended audience. You do not attract a different audience and then devise ways to enforce situations they do not want to be in, especially when it is right smack in the middle of the content they were having fun doing.
Okay, you do see people standing around just chatting even in a game like WoW, such as in Goldshire. However, they aren't really doing anything else either. Perhaps those of us in this thread are talking more about socializing and leveling at the same time. Since games are solo oriented now from 1-max level, perhaps we miss this socialization, because it doesn't exist anymore. If you want to socialize, you join a guild full of strangers, or fight for some air time on the General chat channel that's been overtaken by teenagers. Even in groups, in a game such as WoW, are not social even if you wanted to, because most of the people in that group care only about finishing the instance ASAP with hopes of being the guy who got the rare loot.
So maybe these games are just populated with anti-social people? Maybe they are the same type of people as they were pre-WoW, but game mechanics have changed, so those people have changed too?
MMOs are hardly MMOs anymore. The quest grind in WoW was the first step to killing it.
Soloing should always be an option for those who really really don't want to group with people (why play an MMO?) but it shouldn't be MORE viable than grouping. Grouping should always be the faster means of advancing.
And quests, should always be for story, some neat items, and maybe an xp boost now and then. They should not be the primary means of leveling up, causing all quests to have those stupid floating icons and boil down to "travel to this glowing waypoint and kill x and bring back y from x".
A lot of what is wrong with the super casual MMOs is the lack of social dependency. Down time sucked soloing, I hated it. I hated every second of it, because I was a class that could not solo well and sometimes, you just have to solo. But, it made me appreciate and seek out groups, and those are where my best MMO experiences come from. Hunting with groups through a random dungeon, not blindly following some stupid quest then disbanding as soon as the group part of the quest chain is done.
Down time IN groups is also a good mechanic to give people time to talk to one another while hunting, making jokes, making friends. In LotRO, I grouped with people, but no one ever talked, they just followed the leader to the quest point, killed the boss, and all went their separate ways. There was never any down time, no talking, nothing.
Down time both provides incentive to group, to minimize down time and for faster hunting, and it gives people a chance to talk. It's what is missing in most modern MMOs.
I want a fun, difficult and action packed fight where I succeed or fail by my own choices, and then I want a rapid recovery so that I can do it again."
See, here is what I dont get about you staunch anti downtime/group people: You really think that combat is difficult in current mmos? Combat has been so dumbed-down to facilitate the no-downtime mechanic. And its contridictory to say on one hand you want difficult combat, yet in the same breath say you want rapid recovery. How can the fight have really been that difficult if 2 secs later you are immediately moving on to another mob? As a level 1 warriordin or w/e with a rusty spoon, why should it take you only 2 seconds to kill a mob?
Needless to say, pointless downtime is to be avoided. But sensical, strategic downtime only adds to the game, as long as its not excessive. The more of this thread and other group vs. solo threads I read, the less sense the solo argument makes. Initally it was anitgrouping, now its anti socializing as well. So again, if you dont want to group or socialize, why do you play mmos? I get wanting to play at your own pace and dealing with time constraints, but some of you people really do want to play mmos as solo player games. That really makes no sense to me at all.
Regardless of where you stand, there is clearly a correlation between the current solo focused mmo design and lack of community. Yes, there are some strong communities in some games/servers, but overall, there has been a huge decline from the EQ/DAoC days. Its not a coincidence that community/social ties/socializing decline in the presence of an incline in solo friendly and solo prefered combat.
There's really no need for downtime, that is, time you have to spend waiting in order to do what you actually want to do. But that doesn't mean that things should be instant. Putting a group together in order to tackle a tougher challenge isn't downtime. Waiting for your mana to restore so you can fight the next mob, that's downtime.
The reason that grouping is such a pain, by the way, in a game like WoW is due simply to the lack of grouping that takes place. There is absolutely nothing that requires a group to complete until you reach the max level. No aspect of questing, leveling, crafting, training your character, or anything of the sort requires working with other people. The whole tutorial portion of the game gets you thinking about how to do things by yourself. The only way to overcome the lack of community is to lessen or remove the ability to function without it. If playing alone is more effective, then people will do that. It's human nature. Set up an environment where you HAVE to learn to work as a team, then people will.
A lot of people like being able to solo play in an MMO, but they aren't interested in the kind of community that others in this thread are seeking. This is why there really shouldn't be one game trying to cater to everyone. Make a really solo-friendly game, and a really group-oriented game, and everyone can have what they want.
Important facts: 1. Free to Play games are poorly made. 2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals. 3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE. 4. Community is more important than you think.
Socialization and communities hasn't been killed by lack of downtime, it's been killed by social networking, instant messaging, vent and global chat. People take ease of communication for granted and use these tools to stick with their cliques rather than reaching out to new people.
UO had far and away the best community I've experienced in an MMO. It had very little downtime between encounters, yet I made more friends in that game than all other MMO's combined. Why? Because I had to physically walk up to people to talk to them. If I wanted friends, I couldn't be antisocial, I had to make an effort to make friends.
This is in stark contrast to today's MMOs which have global chat and instant messaging to anyone, anywhere, anytime. You'd think that players would be more social with all the tools we have to today, but the opposite is true. Sitting in the safety of the towns walls, yelling "LFG!" is antisocial behaviour. There's no effort required on the players part. When your identity is tied to a faceless name in a chat room, your identity has far less weight. Trying to make yourself noticed through a constant stream of chatter can be exceedingly difficult. It's definitely harder to make friends in that environment.
Downtime is nothing but a useless timesink. You don't need downtime to force people to interact with one another. There are plenty of other good game mechanics to promote socialization.
"Lose it. I want a fun, difficult and action packed fight where I succeed or fail by my own choices, and then I want a rapid recovery so that I can do it again."
See, here is what I dont get about you staunch anti downtime/group people: You really think that combat is difficult in current mmos? Combat has been so dumbed-down to facilitate the no-downtime mechanic. And its contridictory to say on one hand you want difficult combat, yet in the same breath say you want rapid recovery. How can the fight have really been that difficult if 2 secs later you are immediately moving on to another mob? As a level 1 warriordin or w/e with a rusty spoon, why should it take you only 2 seconds to kill a mob?
I don't know what you are smoking. Down-time has NOTHING to do with difficulty.
For example, some raids in WOW are pretty difficult and people wipe & wipe. But they can get back up quickly and try again precisely because they don't have to sit there to regen mana for 10 min.
You can be fast pace & difficult .. by making you DIE FAST if you don't play right.
Even in some leveling scenarios, if you pull the wrong mobs, you die in 10 sec. Now that is fast and without down-time.
Waiting for mana/health to regen is just failed game design.
Originally posted by nate1980 Okay, you do see people standing around just chatting even in a game like WoW, such as in Goldshire. However, they aren't really doing anything else either. Perhaps those of us in this thread are talking more about socializing and leveling at the same time. Since games are solo oriented now from 1-max level, perhaps we miss this socialization, because it doesn't exist anymore. If you want to socialize, you join a guild full of strangers, or fight for some air time on the General chat channel that's been overtaken by teenagers. Even in groups, in a game such as WoW, are not social even if you wanted to, because most of the people in that group care only about finishing the instance ASAP with hopes of being the guy who got the rare loot. So maybe these games are just populated with anti-social people? Maybe they are the same type of people as they were pre-WoW, but game mechanics have changed, so those people have changed too?
Well if we conveniently ignore those guys in Goldshire socializing, and the people in General chat socializing, and the people in Orgrimmar socializing, and the people raiding socializing, it still comes back to your original idea being a terrible way to encourage socializing; or more accurately a mediocre improvement to socializing at the expense of terrible implications for the game's gameplay.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Games that I played that had downtime - Lineage 1, Lineage 2, DAOC - and to this day, 8 years later, I still keep in touch with people and I was recentyly playing Aion with a number of them.
Games that I played with limited downtime - WOW, COX, AOC, LotRO - for whatever reason, and not because I'm not social, I've keep in touch with.... no one. Despite playing for the same amount of time.
Currently playing EVE, combat mechanics and downtime have provided plenty of time to make friends which I have and will probably stay in touch with for a while.
Say what you will, downtime mechanics encourage long term socialization, regardless of their impact on solo gameplay.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Games that I played that had downtime - Lineage 1, Lineage 2, DAOC - and to this day, 8 years later, I still keep in touch with people and I was recentyly playing Aion with a number of them. Games that I played with limited downtime - WOW, COX, AOC, LotRO - for whatever reason, and not because I'm not social, I've keep in touch with.... no one. Despite playing for the same amount of time. Currently playing EVE, combat mechanics and downtime have provided plenty of time to make friends which I have and will probably stay in touch with for a while. Say what you will, downtime mechanics encourage long term socialization, regardless of their impact on solo gameplay.
hmm Just the opposite for me. Different strokes for different folks, who woulda thunk!?
We've pointed out WoW, which has no downtime, and is very solo friendly. So I'll point out a group heavy game, that still has a socialization problem, and I think it's because of the speed of combat.
DDO is without a doubt a group based game. However, the game is twitch-based and action packed. So you don't really have time to just chat. Most people also rush through the dungeons. Now, sometimes groups stay together for hours, while other times they break up. Sometimes I'm able to get people talking, but it's only when someone needs to go AFK or we're filling the group. Never long enough to get to know each other, but long enough for me to get people to relax. Both WoW and DDO are similar in the pace of combat and lack of downtime, but they're radically different in game design and target audience.
So is it a coincidence that both games lack socialization and both have fast combat and a lack of downtime?
During downtimes, which I hate, I tend to multitask, watch movies or TV, play another game in the background, do chores or honestly anything else BUT stare at the chat channel.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Comments
I can go with that. I did like downtimes when i was playing EQ. Other games have a little downtime but not as much though. I dont think ill ever forget the days of sitting and learning a language while we were waiting. Good idea.
This
Hell no to downtime.
I agreed. If i just want to socialize, i will go on a chat channel, not a MMORPG.
Plus, there is a guild channel that I can socialize any time I want to. This "community talk" is just baloney. I have more friends in WOW than when i was in EQ. There is already enough down-time when you are grouping up (particularly those raid grp that takes FOREVER to set up) and flying to the stone.
We do NOT need more down-time.
So for the pro downtime crowd; "do you only like to socialize when there is forced downtime? Do you socialize in games that don't have downtime?"
I've heard that if there is no downtime, then players will race through at breakneck speed, ignoring the social aspects of the game. Could that be that they don't like the forced downtime either?
Frankly, I am a RPer. All the guilds I am in are RP based and I have back stories for each of my characters. My current game, CO is about as minimal downtime as you can get. However, my groups still pause and look at the scenery. We chat, hang out, and generally have a good time. I knew none of these players before starting CO.
Downtime has little to do with the amount of socialization in a game. It's the people you meet and how you treat them.
Keep downtime to a minimum.
I was in plenty of groups in DAoC where we built our group to minimize downtime, and chose mobs that would grant us the best xp/hr. Granted, you didn't have much downtime at that point, you the combat was slow enough and you had enough downtime to stimulate conversation. If it wasn't for the slow pace of combat and the small amounts of downtime, I'd of probably never got to know anyone in DAoC. How else would I? Approach a complete stranger and strike up a conversation with them? I don't do that in real life, so why would I in a game? Do you?
I remember very clearly out how boring combat was in DAoC and the downtime. I remember literally fighting a mob for 1-2 minutes, and he was equal level to me. After that, you had to rest to regain your endurance. It's probably a huge reason people grouped. Grouping allowed you till kill a lot faster, and other classes complimented yours, which made killing fast possible. Maybe it was the slow pace of combat, and not the downtime. Maybe it was both. But combat is fast-paced in MMORPG's now. Take WoW for example. I kill a mob within seconds. I don't have time to chat while killing, and the area is agro happy, so you don't want to sit around and chat. It'd be best to just go to a town or out of the way place where mobs aren't patrolling to chat, but then you aren't leveling up. Maybe it's none of the above. Maybe it's just the anti-social nature of most members of the community.
I won't pretend to have the answers, but I'm sure we can come up with and discuss some logical explanations.
Let's say you were with people who didn't want to stop and look at the scenery. Let's say that you couldn't find these people anywhere during your first month of CO, and the people you did see were in a rush to level. Would you still stop and look at the scenery, trying to spark up conversatio with people you don't know, or would you yourself concentrate on leveling up?
Maybe it's just the communities playing the game. Maybe some people will not stop to socialize no matter what, because they'd rather level. Maybe others will only stop and socialize if another person initiates it. Perhaps others will socialize if someone initiates it, but otherwise will look like any other person on the server: a person speed leveling through the game. Perhaps people who wish to socialize mistaken those who would also like to socialize for those who don't want to socialize, because everyone is running around doing their own thing and not chatting. The only chat you hear is on General, where people are making an ass of themselves.
Lots of things to ponder. I've played some later games where I've socialized some, but not in the same way as I did in DAoC. It was instead over General Chat, or Guild Chat, and nothing that deep, and mostly only arguments come up.
You know what type of downtime I miss? Battle Fatigue in SWG. I thought that had potential to be some of the best downtime out there. It wasn't crippling until high levels, and it promoted some socialization in the cantinas.
Socializing has always been a component of MMORPG's. Since you're playing MMORPG's, wouldn't it stand to reason that socializing during downtime IS playing the game? If you don't force people to socialize, they just won't. Path of least resistance. There are exceptions to this rule, because some people stand around and talk or duel, or whatever anyways, but the vast majority will mind their own business and will rarely stop and talk with each other. Socializing is part of online play, at least it is in my opinion.
If you want to socialize, you're gonna socialize. Having the game "force" you to socialize by turning off gameplay for a period of time is asinine.
The path of least resistance you speak of is players optimizing their desired vs. undesired activities. So if they're not socializing it's because they don't want to socialize. As a result, you still see lots and lots of socializing happening in MMORPGs from the players who want to socialize.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I played EQ many moons ago, and the down time was one of the reasons I stoped playing. Kill a mob for a couple minutes ... rest for 5 or 10 minutes. Rinse and repeat. I play MMOs to have fun and to socialize. I am never in a rush to get to the end game. I like to take my time and enjoy the ride so to speak. Guilds and chat are great ways to socialize during play. Forced downtime is not a good way for people to socialize, it's a good way for players to get bored and thats why they socialize.
I am a casual MMO gamer as well. I work full time, go to college, have 3 children, and am the DM for a local D&D group. My time spent playing MMOs is valuable to me. I want to actually play the game, not read a book while waiting for my health to come back.
If a developer has socializing as a focus or concern, they create mechanics and locations to facilitate that. They don't force people to stop doing what they want to do in order to try to force people to socialize.
Nate, if you want to make a good game, then you create content for your target audience. If you want people to socialize and you find that you are creating mechanics to force them to do so, then you have failed in both areas of your content - the socialization part and the part they were enjoying until you imposed cookies and milk time on them.
UO didn't need any type of forced downtime, yet people would log in solely to sit around and BS with each other at the local tavern or player town. Why? Because content and mechanics were put in game to give players both places and reasons to just hang out and socialize. Players that wanted to go out hunting would go out hunting together. Players that wanted to hang out, spar, tell stories/jokes would do so.
You design mechanics to support the playstyle of your intended audience. You do not attract a different audience and then devise ways to enforce situations they do not want to be in, especially when it is right smack in the middle of the content they were having fun doing.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
^--- A much more logical approach and one that would appeal more to the socializer than enforced chat times.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
If you need a game to force you to socialize, you're not social. Case closed. Social people socialize regardless=)
Socializing has always been a component of MMORPG's. Since you're playing MMORPG's, wouldn't it stand to reason that socializing during downtime IS playing the game? If you don't force people to socialize, they just won't. Path of least resistance. There are exceptions to this rule, because some people stand around and talk or duel, or whatever anyways, but the vast majority will mind their own business and will rarely stop and talk with each other. Socializing is part of online play, at least it is in my opinion.
If you want to socialize, you're gonna socialize. Having the game "force" you to socialize by turning off gameplay for a period of time is asinine.
The path of least resistance you speak of is players optimizing their desired vs. undesired activities. So if they're not socializing it's because they don't want to socialize. As a result, you still see lots and lots of socializing happening in MMORPGs from the players who want to socialize.
You're simplifying and overgeneralized a problem that is much more complex than that. The posters in this thread have already proved this, by stating that they want to socialize, but the way games are built encourage people NOT to socialize the great majority of the time. Are you just going to ignore their words, because you don't agree with them?
Example: You're in a new school, you don't know anyone, and no one even looks at you. They walk right by you like you don't even exist. Even though you love to talk to people and socialize, are you going to just approach these strangers and strike up a conversation? Perhaps you will, but perhaps you're also a more outgoing person. There's all different personality types. There are some types of people, that love to socialize, but will not if they feel they're interrupting someone who's busy doing something else. Many organizations note this, and have icebreaker sessions, where they FORCE people to start talking with each other. After that, everything is okay, and people start to open up a lot more. So to ignore these facts and different types of people, and to generalize them and label them, and to ignore the very words in this thread is arrogant and ignorant.
If a developer has socializing as a focus or concern, they create mechanics and locations to facilitate that. They don't force people to stop doing what they want to do in order to try to force people to socialize.
Nate, if you want to make a good game, then you create content for your target audience. If you want people to socialize and you find that you are creating mechanics to force them to do so, then you have failed in both areas of your content - the socialization part and the part they were enjoying until you imposed cookies and milk time on them.
UO didn't need any type of forced downtime, yet people would log in solely to sit around and BS with each other at the local tavern or player town. Why? Because content and mechanics were put in game to give players both places and reasons to just hang out and socialize. Players that wanted to go out hunting would go out hunting together. Players that wanted to hang out, spar, tell stories/jokes would do so.
You design mechanics to support the playstyle of your intended audience. You do not attract a different audience and then devise ways to enforce situations they do not want to be in, especially when it is right smack in the middle of the content they were having fun doing.
Okay, you do see people standing around just chatting even in a game like WoW, such as in Goldshire. However, they aren't really doing anything else either. Perhaps those of us in this thread are talking more about socializing and leveling at the same time. Since games are solo oriented now from 1-max level, perhaps we miss this socialization, because it doesn't exist anymore. If you want to socialize, you join a guild full of strangers, or fight for some air time on the General chat channel that's been overtaken by teenagers. Even in groups, in a game such as WoW, are not social even if you wanted to, because most of the people in that group care only about finishing the instance ASAP with hopes of being the guy who got the rare loot.
So maybe these games are just populated with anti-social people? Maybe they are the same type of people as they were pre-WoW, but game mechanics have changed, so those people have changed too?
Really? How old are you? Trust me, this is going somewhere.
Bring it back.
MMOs are hardly MMOs anymore. The quest grind in WoW was the first step to killing it.
Soloing should always be an option for those who really really don't want to group with people (why play an MMO?) but it shouldn't be MORE viable than grouping. Grouping should always be the faster means of advancing.
And quests, should always be for story, some neat items, and maybe an xp boost now and then. They should not be the primary means of leveling up, causing all quests to have those stupid floating icons and boil down to "travel to this glowing waypoint and kill x and bring back y from x".
A lot of what is wrong with the super casual MMOs is the lack of social dependency. Down time sucked soloing, I hated it. I hated every second of it, because I was a class that could not solo well and sometimes, you just have to solo. But, it made me appreciate and seek out groups, and those are where my best MMO experiences come from. Hunting with groups through a random dungeon, not blindly following some stupid quest then disbanding as soon as the group part of the quest chain is done.
Down time IN groups is also a good mechanic to give people time to talk to one another while hunting, making jokes, making friends. In LotRO, I grouped with people, but no one ever talked, they just followed the leader to the quest point, killed the boss, and all went their separate ways. There was never any down time, no talking, nothing.
Down time both provides incentive to group, to minimize down time and for faster hunting, and it gives people a chance to talk. It's what is missing in most modern MMOs.
Darkfall Travelogues!
"Lose it.
I want a fun, difficult and action packed fight where I succeed or fail by my own choices, and then I want a rapid recovery so that I can do it again."
See, here is what I dont get about you staunch anti downtime/group people: You really think that combat is difficult in current mmos? Combat has been so dumbed-down to facilitate the no-downtime mechanic. And its contridictory to say on one hand you want difficult combat, yet in the same breath say you want rapid recovery. How can the fight have really been that difficult if 2 secs later you are immediately moving on to another mob? As a level 1 warriordin or w/e with a rusty spoon, why should it take you only 2 seconds to kill a mob?
Needless to say, pointless downtime is to be avoided. But sensical, strategic downtime only adds to the game, as long as its not excessive. The more of this thread and other group vs. solo threads I read, the less sense the solo argument makes. Initally it was anitgrouping, now its anti socializing as well. So again, if you dont want to group or socialize, why do you play mmos? I get wanting to play at your own pace and dealing with time constraints, but some of you people really do want to play mmos as solo player games. That really makes no sense to me at all.
Regardless of where you stand, there is clearly a correlation between the current solo focused mmo design and lack of community. Yes, there are some strong communities in some games/servers, but overall, there has been a huge decline from the EQ/DAoC days. Its not a coincidence that community/social ties/socializing decline in the presence of an incline in solo friendly and solo prefered combat.
There's really no need for downtime, that is, time you have to spend waiting in order to do what you actually want to do. But that doesn't mean that things should be instant. Putting a group together in order to tackle a tougher challenge isn't downtime. Waiting for your mana to restore so you can fight the next mob, that's downtime.
The reason that grouping is such a pain, by the way, in a game like WoW is due simply to the lack of grouping that takes place. There is absolutely nothing that requires a group to complete until you reach the max level. No aspect of questing, leveling, crafting, training your character, or anything of the sort requires working with other people. The whole tutorial portion of the game gets you thinking about how to do things by yourself. The only way to overcome the lack of community is to lessen or remove the ability to function without it. If playing alone is more effective, then people will do that. It's human nature. Set up an environment where you HAVE to learn to work as a team, then people will.
A lot of people like being able to solo play in an MMO, but they aren't interested in the kind of community that others in this thread are seeking. This is why there really shouldn't be one game trying to cater to everyone. Make a really solo-friendly game, and a really group-oriented game, and everyone can have what they want.
Important facts:
1. Free to Play games are poorly made.
2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals.
3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE.
4. Community is more important than you think.
Socialization and communities hasn't been killed by lack of downtime, it's been killed by social networking, instant messaging, vent and global chat. People take ease of communication for granted and use these tools to stick with their cliques rather than reaching out to new people.
UO had far and away the best community I've experienced in an MMO. It had very little downtime between encounters, yet I made more friends in that game than all other MMO's combined. Why? Because I had to physically walk up to people to talk to them. If I wanted friends, I couldn't be antisocial, I had to make an effort to make friends.
This is in stark contrast to today's MMOs which have global chat and instant messaging to anyone, anywhere, anytime. You'd think that players would be more social with all the tools we have to today, but the opposite is true. Sitting in the safety of the towns walls, yelling "LFG!" is antisocial behaviour. There's no effort required on the players part. When your identity is tied to a faceless name in a chat room, your identity has far less weight. Trying to make yourself noticed through a constant stream of chatter can be exceedingly difficult. It's definitely harder to make friends in that environment.
Downtime is nothing but a useless timesink. You don't need downtime to force people to interact with one another. There are plenty of other good game mechanics to promote socialization.
I don't know what you are smoking. Down-time has NOTHING to do with difficulty.
For example, some raids in WOW are pretty difficult and people wipe & wipe. But they can get back up quickly and try again precisely because they don't have to sit there to regen mana for 10 min.
You can be fast pace & difficult .. by making you DIE FAST if you don't play right.
Even in some leveling scenarios, if you pull the wrong mobs, you die in 10 sec. Now that is fast and without down-time.
Waiting for mana/health to regen is just failed game design.
Well if we conveniently ignore those guys in Goldshire socializing, and the people in General chat socializing, and the people in Orgrimmar socializing, and the people raiding socializing, it still comes back to your original idea being a terrible way to encourage socializing; or more accurately a mediocre improvement to socializing at the expense of terrible implications for the game's gameplay.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Downtime in a group game = good (adds time to socialize)
Downtime in a solo game = bad (but then solo games are bad anyway)
Games that I played that had downtime - Lineage 1, Lineage 2, DAOC - and to this day, 8 years later, I still keep in touch with people and I was recentyly playing Aion with a number of them.
Games that I played with limited downtime - WOW, COX, AOC, LotRO - for whatever reason, and not because I'm not social, I've keep in touch with.... no one. Despite playing for the same amount of time.
Currently playing EVE, combat mechanics and downtime have provided plenty of time to make friends which I have and will probably stay in touch with for a while.
Say what you will, downtime mechanics encourage long term socialization, regardless of their impact on solo gameplay.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
hmm Just the opposite for me. Different strokes for different folks, who woulda thunk!?
We've pointed out WoW, which has no downtime, and is very solo friendly. So I'll point out a group heavy game, that still has a socialization problem, and I think it's because of the speed of combat.
DDO is without a doubt a group based game. However, the game is twitch-based and action packed. So you don't really have time to just chat. Most people also rush through the dungeons. Now, sometimes groups stay together for hours, while other times they break up. Sometimes I'm able to get people talking, but it's only when someone needs to go AFK or we're filling the group. Never long enough to get to know each other, but long enough for me to get people to relax. Both WoW and DDO are similar in the pace of combat and lack of downtime, but they're radically different in game design and target audience.
So is it a coincidence that both games lack socialization and both have fast combat and a lack of downtime?
During downtimes, which I hate, I tend to multitask, watch movies or TV, play another game in the background, do chores or honestly anything else BUT stare at the chat channel.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky