Yeah if you had enchanters and shaman you didn't have to rest as much. Forget the name but they had a buff which restored mana faster then normaly... clarity I believe ? One reason people from EQ generally know how to organize groups more effectively from what I've encountered. In other games newbs just seem to randomly invite anyone who asks without any thought to group mechanics.
In EQ it was required to have CC, Heals, buffs, tank, dps and evac every single group. I remember joining a group and there wasn't a wizard or druid and thinking to myself oh noes, things go bad and we're dead without evac. Often looked over but in my opinion the best class was a necro. I say this based on my old guildmates example. The dude was an everyman. He pulled, he tanked (with pet) he buffed, he crowd controlled, he dps'd the guy did everything. Unfortunately his wife left him because he played EQ 24/7 lol and his eq days were numbered.
I recall my guild trying plane of sky. It literally became a three day raid that was almost 24/7 each day. If one person didn't show up the entire raid got delayed by hours until we found replacements. Wiping back then (before necro's could summon corpses) almost meant losing everything because your corpses and keys were on different islands in the zone on islands that had already respawned.
Yeah if you had enchanters and shaman you didn't have to rest as much. Forget the name but they had a buff which restored mana faster then normaly... clarity I believe ? One reason people from EQ generally know how to organize groups more effectively from what I've encountered. In other games newbs just seem to randomly invite anyone who asks without any thought to group mechanics. In EQ it was required to have CC, Heals, buffs, tank, dps and evac every single group. I remember joining a group and there wasn't a wizard or druid and thinking to myself oh noes, things go bad and we're dead without evac. Often looked over but in my opinion the best class was a necro. I say this based on my old guildmates example. The dude was an everyman. He pulled, he tanked (with pet) he buffed, he crowd controlled, he dps'd the guy did everything. Unfortunately his wife left him because he played EQ 24/7 lol and his eq days were numbered. I recall my guild trying plane of sky. It literally became a three day raid that was almost 24/7 each day. If one person didn't show up the entire raid got delayed by hours until we found replacements. Wiping back then (before necro's could summon corpses) almost meant losing everything because your corpses and keys were on different islands in the zone on islands that had already respawned.
So are you saying this is all a good thing or a bad thing=) Hard to find the "good" in any of it. So you have a great community of shut-ins and no-lifers, because there was no way in hell people with family and obligations, jobs or kids could do any of that unless you're seriously ignoring your responsibilities. Everytime I read how you could play old EQ with a family and kids I have to laugh...or cry because I feel so sorry for the spouse and kids=)
Yeah if you had enchanters and shaman you didn't have to rest as much. Forget the name but they had a buff which restored mana faster then normaly... clarity I believe ? One reason people from EQ generally know how to organize groups more effectively from what I've encountered. In other games newbs just seem to randomly invite anyone who asks without any thought to group mechanics. In EQ it was required to have CC, Heals, buffs, tank, dps and evac every single group. I remember joining a group and there wasn't a wizard or druid and thinking to myself oh noes, things go bad and we're dead without evac. Often looked over but in my opinion the best class was a necro. I say this based on my old guildmates example. The dude was an everyman. He pulled, he tanked (with pet) he buffed, he crowd controlled, he dps'd the guy did everything. Unfortunately his wife left him because he played EQ 24/7 lol and his eq days were numbered. I recall my guild trying plane of sky. It literally became a three day raid that was almost 24/7 each day. If one person didn't show up the entire raid got delayed by hours until we found replacements. Wiping back then (before necro's could summon corpses) almost meant losing everything because your corpses and keys were on different islands in the zone on islands that had already respawned.
So are you saying this is all a good thing or a bad thing=) Hard to find the "good" in any of it. So you have a great community of shut-ins and no-lifers, because there was no way in hell people with family and obligations, jobs or kids could do any of that unless you're seriously ignoring your responsibilities. Everytime I read how you could play old EQ with a family and kids I have to laugh...or cry because I feel so sorry for the spouse and kids=)
Well Josher, not everyone raided, was interested in raiding, nor cared if they didn't have access to raiding due to their real life responsibilities. Communities were different back then, not like the WoW community where people are demanding to be able to raid casually. I'm not saying WoW is wrong, I'm just saying that your comment is based on the assumption that everyone raided. While the best thing in WoW may be raids, the best thing in older games like EQ and DAoC was the journey. The journey was something that COULD be done by those people with families and other responsibilities.
Well Josher, not everyone raided, was interested in raiding, nor cared if they didn't have access to raiding due to their real life responsibilities. Communities were different back then, not like the WoW community where people are demanding to be able to raid casually. I'm not saying WoW is wrong, I'm just saying that your comment is based on the assumption that everyone raided. While the best thing in WoW may be raids, the best thing in older games like EQ and DAoC was the journey. The journey was something that COULD be done by those people with families and other responsibilities.
Wow was just as much about the journey as everquest was before its first expansion. I really enjoyed it in both games.
However, EQ is the prime example of a game that focuses almost exclusively on raiding, so I'm not sure I would say that wow has anywhere near the number of raiders eq does. Proportionally of course. Wow, even today, is a far more diverse playerbase than everquest was after its second expansion or its fifth year. There is still a fairly active base of players experiencing the non-raid journey in wow. The same hasn't been true for EQ since they started making expansions.
Well Josher, not everyone raided, was interested in raiding, nor cared if they didn't have access to raiding due to their real life responsibilities. Communities were different back then, not like the WoW community where people are demanding to be able to raid casually. I'm not saying WoW is wrong, I'm just saying that your comment is based on the assumption that everyone raided. While the best thing in WoW may be raids, the best thing in older games like EQ and DAoC was the journey. The journey was something that COULD be done by those people with families and other responsibilities.
Wow was just as much about the journey as everquest was before its first expansion. I really enjoyed it in both games.
However, EQ is the prime example of a game that focuses almost exclusively on raiding, so I'm not sure I would say that wow has anywhere near the number of raiders eq does. Proportionally of course. Wow, even today, is a far more diverse playerbase than everquest was after its second expansion or its fifth year. There is still a fairly active base of players experiencing the non-raid journey in wow. The same hasn't been true for EQ since they started making expansions.
You gotta judge a game in its time. Are you saying everyone in EQ, prior to WoW being released, were all raiders? WoW brought a lot of casual gamers to the market, who do nothing but the leveling up portion of the game. Given the current community in WoW, minus WoW, do you think they'd all of a sudden choose to start raiding in EQ?
I don't mind some downtime, if it's done right. EverQuest is the worst example of downtime because downtime was so long, they introduced that silly Gems minigame so players would have something to do while waiting for their HP/MP to regen. Having to rest after every battle is wearisome and breaks up the pacing of the game. If your time spent resting is greater than or equal to that of the time you spend in combat, then it's been implemented poorly. I think resting to regen should always be fairly quick.
Keep in mind that part of the down time in EQ was to somewhat discourage soloing. EQ was more about grouping when it first came out than soloing. I played a Druid most of my EQ career and I certainly dealt with a lot of down time, but I also reaped a lot more exp and loot for my trouble.
With the current mechanics there is a lot less down town, if very much at all, which in essences encourages more solo play (not to mention the introduction of Merc's). EQ in general though is still more group oriented.
The Old Timers Guild Laid back, not so serious, no drama. All about the fun!
www.oldtimersguild.com An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. - Jef Mallett
I like downtime :-) It sucks when you play solo though. Maybe there could be some sort of in game solution for that, to minimize downtime for solo.
Some downtime sucks. Like, I never played it, but I used to watch my brother play some WoW raids where they have 10-40 people just standing around totally bored. And they were encouraged NOT to chat because its annoying to fill up the chat screen. Thats really sad... Maybe on occassion but having regular groups that large just seems like it would hurt the dynamics of group chat and downtime. Plus the downtime was like 30 min to an hour?
Hypothesis: If you want a world to play in, you probably support downtime. If you just want a game to play, you probably hate downtime.
I think you're onto something.
We used to have MMO worlds that had gaming layered onto them, now we have MMO games that have worlds layered onto them.
That shift is what opened up the genre to the masses, & killed it at the same time, maybe at some point in the future we can get MMO worlds which are also great games & satisfy both styles.
Hypothesis: If you want a world to play in, you probably support downtime. If you just want a game to play, you probably hate downtime.
I think you're onto something.
We used to have MMO worlds that had gaming layered onto them, now we have MMO games that have worlds layered onto them.
That shift is what opened up the genre to the masses, & killed it at the same time, maybe at some point in the future we can get MMO worlds which are also great games & satisfy both styles.
When you group downtime seems to short. You wait for rez sickness, or mana or hit points to regenerate, and while you do you discuss where to go next, what strategy did work, what didnt' work, and/or just chat, and you don't feel rushed like you are wasting time or losing xp, because you are not since you needed to wait anyway.
Before you know it, everyone is back at full and it's time ot pull another mob, go deeper into the dungeon, return to the quest giver, move on to the next zone, or wahtever.
Is this a joke? I play games to play games, not to sit around doing nothing.
No it's not a joke.
I too play games to play games, but I already been doing this with all the thousands of single/multiplayer games. MMORPG's, atleast for me go beyond "just a game", I like to immerse myself within that gameworld, something that I feel should and with some MMORPG's is possible, when I feel a MMORPG is more of a game then it is giving me a world feel I choose not to play it cause I do not want just a game feel from a MMORPG, as I said got plenty of games outside the genre of MMORPG's for that.
Also your view of sitting around seems somewhat strange, I mean do you really think people will sit down and do really nothing?, as you can see from other replys getting involved with the community is already something, looking around watching others again is doing something. I don't think someone is going to sit around and really do nothing, except if that person might go AFK.
But then again maybe it's strange for some people into this genre to get to know other people who might be in the same game, I mean maybe for some grouping is all the social they need and if they have fun that way who am I to judge, as fun is what counts regardless how someone might play it. So if a person would consider a topic like this a joke I have to wonder what that person is doing in the MMORPG scene.
Seriously would not have expected this from you Axehilt.
I think it would be, in terms of sales and subs, MMO poison. One of the big reasons MMO devs have to layer tons of group encouragement/gating(bonus XP, elite mobs... bosses with astronomical HP) right now is the amount of downtime inherent in grouping. To layer another downtime mechanic on that would likely cost subs. Particularly if that downtime doesn't advance your character in any direct way.
The thing is, I don't need more downtime in order to be social. That's what chat channels are for. I can generally balance chatting with my current group, my guild, and fight baddies at the same time.
In my opinion, which I'll base on my current game, LotRO, there's already plenty of downtime. I've spent 4-5 hours just crafting on any given day. That's plenty of time to yap with friends and fellow kinnies. One of the things LotRO does right is make it so there's little you can do in the game that doesn't advance your character in some way. And making the things that don't (socializing) doable WHILE doing something that advances your character.
If you need downtime forced on you to have community there is something more wrong than you think.
Thats always been the sad end result of it all and certain people just can't accept it. Its like finally admitting you're an alcoholic=) You have to hit rock bottom, hehe. Social people socialize no matter what. If you need teacher(the game developer) to FORCE you to talk to Timmy sitting next to you by chaining the two of you together for 10 minutes, its YOU with the problem, not the class(videogame).
Is this a joke? I play games to play games, not to sit around doing nothing.
Also your view of sitting around seems somewhat strange, I mean do you really think people will sit down and do really nothing?, as you can see from other replys getting involved with the community is already something, looking around watching others again is doing something. I don't think someone is going to sit around and really do nothing, except if that person might go AFK.
But then again maybe it's strange for some people into this genre to get to know other people who might be in the same game, I mean maybe for some grouping is all the social they need and if they have fun that way who am I to judge, as fun is what counts regardless how someone might play it. So if a person would consider a topic like this a joke I have to wonder what that person is doing in the MMORPG scene.
Seriously would not have expected this from you Axehilt.
Well when I present my opinion in threads (as I've done here) typically I'm championing gameplay over all else.
In this case my brutality was more the result of the OP stating a goal, and then stating a terrible way to reach that goal. There are vastly superior ways of improving the social element of games, without adding to existing downtime (which is already sufficient.)
I can see the value of a social element and even gravitate towards role-based group games. The issue is the OP's suggestion utterly trashes combat pacing (which is less fun in every single fight) for the tradeoff of increased social interaction (which would still occur extremely rare.) There are solutions that don't ruin the fun of every single fight, which result in even more social interaction than increasing downtime.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
If you need downtime forced on you to have community there is something more wrong than you think.
If there is no black, how do you know what is white?
What if you went to a horror movie, and the villian begain to stab someone in the face, and then for the next hour and a half, he continued to stab people in the face?
Do you not understand the concept of pacing, or suspense, or contrast?
If you need downtime forced on you to have community there is something more wrong than you think.
If there is no black, how do you know what is white?
What if you went to a horror movie, and the villian begain to stab someone in the face, and then for the next hour and a half, he continued to stab people in the face?
Do you not understand the concept of pacing, or suspense, or contrast?
No its kind of like you want people to talk to you but apparently no one wants to, so you ask the devs to make them stop every 10 minutes and be nice to you.
As to your analogy, we pace ourselves by not pulling too fast. We see suspense when we are preparing for a boss fight. We see contrast by whether we win or die and whether good loot drops or just rot. And if I ever saw a movie where the good guys stopped to chat while the enemy was in sight I would just laugh.
Downtime works fine for certain games, like D&D based games. You camp for a minute to get back all your spells and abilities and to heal some HPs.
In other games it doesn't add anything whatsoever except another timesink.
If the community doesn't talk with eachother is not so easily solved. It is better to add actual taverns that serve as social centers together with practical things like quests, getting your character food and drink (a tavern meal should be good for a few others unlike crappier home made rations. You just can't carry first class warm food with you).
The only good thing downtime did for people was this:
OOM, medding brb smoke, afk
bio break afk
It allowed you to use the toilet or to hotbox a smoke, instead of pissing into your empty 2 liter bottle of flat Mt. Dew or ending up with an ashtray of burned to the butt cigarettes that you didn't smoke.
I can honestly say that in CoH/CoV you had very drive-by grouping attitude with PUGs. On the other hand I was a team member of "The Emerald Legion" (a group that the guy who makes Ctrl+Alt+Del started) and the majority of people in it were social, cool people which socialized quite a bit, grouped with a lot, and had a lot of fun... even as a healer (usually what I play because I'm the best that I know of).
The above stated about UO is true. There was tons to do, and BS'ing with people whether you were fishing off a bridge, chopping wood, running from a PK'er, or pickpocketing someone was simple and fun... not "forced".
See, anyone who has either played Everquest classic, or Final Fantasy XI actually KNOW, what downtime is. If all you know is WoW and after... you have no clue.
You could literally wait 10 minutes + waiting for a full bar of health or mana, and that's just the early levels. There was food and water, but it did not function as a "regen tool" for your health and mana like in EQ. It was just consumed by your toon staving off... was it exhaustion? I forget. But it was not uncommon for a fight to go something like:
Pulling...
(person obtains aggro from 1 or 2 mobs from a group of mobs from a distance then runs back to party waiting to attack)
Main tank gets aggro, cleric heals enough to not draw more aggro than MT is giving and also for mana management, secondaries take care of add(s), debuff main target, glass cannons finish off main target, refocus... something like that it's been a while. But after that's all said and done, it's downtime. Clerics heal up to above 2/3 for the tanks and whomever else was hurt... casters stick their nose in a virtual book and are shut out from viewing the game around them and everyone waited for their natural regen. Until later levels (I forget... 30ish?) casters can finally meditate (regen mana faster) without having to stare at their spellbook. UNTIL then, casters are usually bored as hell and chat for the next 5-10 minutes because of the downtime. Once casters are good to go, healers top off health, and repeat the process.
It's a common misconception that people loved to chat in downtime just because they loved to socialize... it actually was brought about from casters being bored out of their f'ing minds in between trying to play a game.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Hypothesis: If you want a world to play in, you probably support downtime. If you just want a game to play, you probably hate downtime.
I think you're onto something.
We used to have MMO worlds that had gaming layered onto them, now we have MMO games that have worlds layered onto them.
That shift is what opened up the genre to the masses, & killed it at the same time, maybe at some point in the future we can get MMO worlds which are also great games & satisfy both styles.
I think this is just part of the idea that mmorpgs are not game but services. We are moving that direction with MTs and such. IIRC, it was Ralph Koster who said mmorpgs are services and not games.
If you need downtime forced on you to have community there is something more wrong than you think.
If there is no black, how do you know what is white?
What if you went to a horror movie, and the villian begain to stab someone in the face, and then for the next hour and a half, he continued to stab people in the face?
Do you not understand the concept of pacing, or suspense, or contrast?
No its kind of like you want people to talk to you but apparently no one wants to, so you ask the devs to make them stop every 10 minutes and be nice to you.
As to your analogy, we pace ourselves by not pulling too fast. We see suspense when we are preparing for a boss fight. We see contrast by whether we win or die and whether good loot drops or just rot. And if I ever saw a movie where the good guys stopped to chat while the enemy was in sight I would just laugh.
lol'd hard.
*party attacks a few DW crocs and kills them off*
Cleric says: OOM medding.
Warrior says: k.
Warrior says: You see the new sword I got? Rare drop I camped 2 days for off this one mob. I thought my eyes were going to bleed.
*silence*
Warrior says: You there?
Warrior: ...
*two minutes pass*
Cleric: back
Warrior: k let me kno when u go afk again
Cleric: grabbed a smoke. 55%
Warrior: k
Warrior: Hail a sand giant
Warrior: move
Warrior: Hail a sand giant
Warrior: Hail a sand giant
Warrior: Hail a sand giant
*boom boom* *CRACK! CRUNCH!* (kills cleric and aggros on warrior)
Warrior yells: SG TO DOCKS! *CRUNCH* (warrior gets stunned and slowly spins around)
*CRUSH! warrior begins walking at 2inches per hour while hopping. *CRACK* warrior dies*
Cleric: Back
__________
yeah that'd be an awesome movie
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
You know, there's a lot of things that make for a good community, like several posters have already noted. One of them is a good PvP system. I remember that in DAoC there was a kind of permeating sense of 'nationality' which was very cool, because it meant that people would sometimes go out of their way to help others "for the cause". When I played Age of Conan there was something vaguely similar in the Culture PvP server (which, precisely after remembering how fun DAoC was, I didn't hesitate to jump in); we used to see this egyptian (I know they're not egyptian, but I remember them that way) guild that liked to raid the lowbie zones to kill everyone in sight, and there was this one time when we (hyboreans) started broadcasting for help along various zones. After 15 minutes or so, a lot of people responded to the call just because they were getting to kill those damn snake-lovers. The fight lasted for like an hour, and we even got some aquilonian guilds into the fray; the mayhem was grand, and it was a very fun battle. I met several good people that day, and I believe most of us were having a great time just kicking each other's asses. Of course, the game was a mess and I left shortly thereafter, but I think the community at the time was strong.
I had a similar, if a lot more tenuous, experience while playing Warhammer. Needless to say, DAoC was the greatest of those games in terms of establishing a strong sense of commitment with a community. I think Warhammer had too much of the 'do-it-for-the-loot' // "play scenarios like you're playing Unreal Tournament" mentality to work as effectively, but the potential was there. In any case, the most important thing is that DAoC had both a nice little space for downtime AND great PvP. The community was awesome... perhaps that's the key point developers need to reach again.
Side effect = lose time doing nothing Games already evolved past that point. Trying to force socializing through... artificialy created breaks into gameplay... Because... people arent stopping to socialize anymore?! HAHAHAHAHA Listen kid, what I will tell you now will hurt your feelings. A huge chunk of people play games for themselfs and a huge chunk of people just care about power, socializing in games doesnt affect either. Socializing is dead.
Pretty much... but it's not just in MMO's. Try starting random conversations with five people tomorrow in real life... and not people who are working... random citizens. Walk right up to them and start talking away about your life, or the weather, or the funny thing you saw in-game. Let me know how that works out for everyone.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Comments
Yeah if you had enchanters and shaman you didn't have to rest as much. Forget the name but they had a buff which restored mana faster then normaly... clarity I believe ? One reason people from EQ generally know how to organize groups more effectively from what I've encountered. In other games newbs just seem to randomly invite anyone who asks without any thought to group mechanics.
In EQ it was required to have CC, Heals, buffs, tank, dps and evac every single group. I remember joining a group and there wasn't a wizard or druid and thinking to myself oh noes, things go bad and we're dead without evac. Often looked over but in my opinion the best class was a necro. I say this based on my old guildmates example. The dude was an everyman. He pulled, he tanked (with pet) he buffed, he crowd controlled, he dps'd the guy did everything. Unfortunately his wife left him because he played EQ 24/7 lol and his eq days were numbered.
I recall my guild trying plane of sky. It literally became a three day raid that was almost 24/7 each day. If one person didn't show up the entire raid got delayed by hours until we found replacements. Wiping back then (before necro's could summon corpses) almost meant losing everything because your corpses and keys were on different islands in the zone on islands that had already respawned.
So are you saying this is all a good thing or a bad thing=) Hard to find the "good" in any of it. So you have a great community of shut-ins and no-lifers, because there was no way in hell people with family and obligations, jobs or kids could do any of that unless you're seriously ignoring your responsibilities. Everytime I read how you could play old EQ with a family and kids I have to laugh...or cry because I feel so sorry for the spouse and kids=)
So are you saying this is all a good thing or a bad thing=) Hard to find the "good" in any of it. So you have a great community of shut-ins and no-lifers, because there was no way in hell people with family and obligations, jobs or kids could do any of that unless you're seriously ignoring your responsibilities. Everytime I read how you could play old EQ with a family and kids I have to laugh...or cry because I feel so sorry for the spouse and kids=)
Well Josher, not everyone raided, was interested in raiding, nor cared if they didn't have access to raiding due to their real life responsibilities. Communities were different back then, not like the WoW community where people are demanding to be able to raid casually. I'm not saying WoW is wrong, I'm just saying that your comment is based on the assumption that everyone raided. While the best thing in WoW may be raids, the best thing in older games like EQ and DAoC was the journey. The journey was something that COULD be done by those people with families and other responsibilities.
Wow was just as much about the journey as everquest was before its first expansion. I really enjoyed it in both games.
However, EQ is the prime example of a game that focuses almost exclusively on raiding, so I'm not sure I would say that wow has anywhere near the number of raiders eq does. Proportionally of course. Wow, even today, is a far more diverse playerbase than everquest was after its second expansion or its fifth year. There is still a fairly active base of players experiencing the non-raid journey in wow. The same hasn't been true for EQ since they started making expansions.
Wow was just as much about the journey as everquest was before its first expansion. I really enjoyed it in both games.
However, EQ is the prime example of a game that focuses almost exclusively on raiding, so I'm not sure I would say that wow has anywhere near the number of raiders eq does. Proportionally of course. Wow, even today, is a far more diverse playerbase than everquest was after its second expansion or its fifth year. There is still a fairly active base of players experiencing the non-raid journey in wow. The same hasn't been true for EQ since they started making expansions.
You gotta judge a game in its time. Are you saying everyone in EQ, prior to WoW being released, were all raiders? WoW brought a lot of casual gamers to the market, who do nothing but the leveling up portion of the game. Given the current community in WoW, minus WoW, do you think they'd all of a sudden choose to start raiding in EQ?
Keep in mind that part of the down time in EQ was to somewhat discourage soloing. EQ was more about grouping when it first came out than soloing. I played a Druid most of my EQ career and I certainly dealt with a lot of down time, but I also reaped a lot more exp and loot for my trouble.
With the current mechanics there is a lot less down town, if very much at all, which in essences encourages more solo play (not to mention the introduction of Merc's). EQ in general though is still more group oriented.
The Old Timers Guild
Laid back, not so serious, no drama.
All about the fun!
www.oldtimersguild.com
An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. - Jef Mallett
Hypothesis: If you want a world to play in, you probably support downtime. If you just want a game to play, you probably hate downtime.
Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.
I like downtime :-) It sucks when you play solo though. Maybe there could be some sort of in game solution for that, to minimize downtime for solo.
Some downtime sucks. Like, I never played it, but I used to watch my brother play some WoW raids where they have 10-40 people just standing around totally bored. And they were encouraged NOT to chat because its annoying to fill up the chat screen. Thats really sad... Maybe on occassion but having regular groups that large just seems like it would hurt the dynamics of group chat and downtime. Plus the downtime was like 30 min to an hour?
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
I think you're onto something.
We used to have MMO worlds that had gaming layered onto them, now we have MMO games that have worlds layered onto them.
That shift is what opened up the genre to the masses, & killed it at the same time, maybe at some point in the future we can get MMO worlds which are also great games & satisfy both styles.
I think you're onto something.
We used to have MMO worlds that had gaming layered onto them, now we have MMO games that have worlds layered onto them.
That shift is what opened up the genre to the masses, & killed it at the same time, maybe at some point in the future we can get MMO worlds which are also great games & satisfy both styles.
When you group downtime seems to short. You wait for rez sickness, or mana or hit points to regenerate, and while you do you discuss where to go next, what strategy did work, what didnt' work, and/or just chat, and you don't feel rushed like you are wasting time or losing xp, because you are not since you needed to wait anyway.
Before you know it, everyone is back at full and it's time ot pull another mob, go deeper into the dungeon, return to the quest giver, move on to the next zone, or wahtever.
No it's not a joke.
I too play games to play games, but I already been doing this with all the thousands of single/multiplayer games. MMORPG's, atleast for me go beyond "just a game", I like to immerse myself within that gameworld, something that I feel should and with some MMORPG's is possible, when I feel a MMORPG is more of a game then it is giving me a world feel I choose not to play it cause I do not want just a game feel from a MMORPG, as I said got plenty of games outside the genre of MMORPG's for that.
Also your view of sitting around seems somewhat strange, I mean do you really think people will sit down and do really nothing?, as you can see from other replys getting involved with the community is already something, looking around watching others again is doing something. I don't think someone is going to sit around and really do nothing, except if that person might go AFK.
But then again maybe it's strange for some people into this genre to get to know other people who might be in the same game, I mean maybe for some grouping is all the social they need and if they have fun that way who am I to judge, as fun is what counts regardless how someone might play it. So if a person would consider a topic like this a joke I have to wonder what that person is doing in the MMORPG scene.
Seriously would not have expected this from you Axehilt.
I think it would be, in terms of sales and subs, MMO poison. One of the big reasons MMO devs have to layer tons of group encouragement/gating(bonus XP, elite mobs... bosses with astronomical HP) right now is the amount of downtime inherent in grouping. To layer another downtime mechanic on that would likely cost subs. Particularly if that downtime doesn't advance your character in any direct way.
The thing is, I don't need more downtime in order to be social. That's what chat channels are for. I can generally balance chatting with my current group, my guild, and fight baddies at the same time.
In my opinion, which I'll base on my current game, LotRO, there's already plenty of downtime. I've spent 4-5 hours just crafting on any given day. That's plenty of time to yap with friends and fellow kinnies. One of the things LotRO does right is make it so there's little you can do in the game that doesn't advance your character in some way. And making the things that don't (socializing) doable WHILE doing something that advances your character.
If you need downtime forced on you to have community there is something more wrong than you think.
Thats always been the sad end result of it all and certain people just can't accept it. Its like finally admitting you're an alcoholic=) You have to hit rock bottom, hehe. Social people socialize no matter what. If you need teacher(the game developer) to FORCE you to talk to Timmy sitting next to you by chaining the two of you together for 10 minutes, its YOU with the problem, not the class(videogame).
Also your view of sitting around seems somewhat strange, I mean do you really think people will sit down and do really nothing?, as you can see from other replys getting involved with the community is already something, looking around watching others again is doing something. I don't think someone is going to sit around and really do nothing, except if that person might go AFK.
But then again maybe it's strange for some people into this genre to get to know other people who might be in the same game, I mean maybe for some grouping is all the social they need and if they have fun that way who am I to judge, as fun is what counts regardless how someone might play it. So if a person would consider a topic like this a joke I have to wonder what that person is doing in the MMORPG scene.
Seriously would not have expected this from you Axehilt.
Well when I present my opinion in threads (as I've done here) typically I'm championing gameplay over all else.
In this case my brutality was more the result of the OP stating a goal, and then stating a terrible way to reach that goal. There are vastly superior ways of improving the social element of games, without adding to existing downtime (which is already sufficient.)
I can see the value of a social element and even gravitate towards role-based group games. The issue is the OP's suggestion utterly trashes combat pacing (which is less fun in every single fight) for the tradeoff of increased social interaction (which would still occur extremely rare.) There are solutions that don't ruin the fun of every single fight, which result in even more social interaction than increasing downtime.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
If there is no black, how do you know what is white?
What if you went to a horror movie, and the villian begain to stab someone in the face, and then for the next hour and a half, he continued to stab people in the face?
Do you not understand the concept of pacing, or suspense, or contrast?
If there is no black, how do you know what is white?
What if you went to a horror movie, and the villian begain to stab someone in the face, and then for the next hour and a half, he continued to stab people in the face?
Do you not understand the concept of pacing, or suspense, or contrast?
No its kind of like you want people to talk to you but apparently no one wants to, so you ask the devs to make them stop every 10 minutes and be nice to you.
As to your analogy, we pace ourselves by not pulling too fast. We see suspense when we are preparing for a boss fight. We see contrast by whether we win or die and whether good loot drops or just rot. And if I ever saw a movie where the good guys stopped to chat while the enemy was in sight I would just laugh.
Downtime works fine for certain games, like D&D based games. You camp for a minute to get back all your spells and abilities and to heal some HPs.
In other games it doesn't add anything whatsoever except another timesink.
If the community doesn't talk with eachother is not so easily solved. It is better to add actual taverns that serve as social centers together with practical things like quests, getting your character food and drink (a tavern meal should be good for a few others unlike crappier home made rations. You just can't carry first class warm food with you).
It was fun waiting 10 minutes for a shuttle in SWG.
You got to know the folks around the server, trade, shop around the close stores or get some buffs.
The only good thing downtime did for people was this:
OOM, medding brb smoke, afk
bio break afk
It allowed you to use the toilet or to hotbox a smoke, instead of pissing into your empty 2 liter bottle of flat Mt. Dew or ending up with an ashtray of burned to the butt cigarettes that you didn't smoke.
I can honestly say that in CoH/CoV you had very drive-by grouping attitude with PUGs. On the other hand I was a team member of "The Emerald Legion" (a group that the guy who makes Ctrl+Alt+Del started) and the majority of people in it were social, cool people which socialized quite a bit, grouped with a lot, and had a lot of fun... even as a healer (usually what I play because I'm the best that I know of).
The above stated about UO is true. There was tons to do, and BS'ing with people whether you were fishing off a bridge, chopping wood, running from a PK'er, or pickpocketing someone was simple and fun... not "forced".
See, anyone who has either played Everquest classic, or Final Fantasy XI actually KNOW, what downtime is. If all you know is WoW and after... you have no clue.
You could literally wait 10 minutes + waiting for a full bar of health or mana, and that's just the early levels. There was food and water, but it did not function as a "regen tool" for your health and mana like in EQ. It was just consumed by your toon staving off... was it exhaustion? I forget. But it was not uncommon for a fight to go something like:
Pulling...
(person obtains aggro from 1 or 2 mobs from a group of mobs from a distance then runs back to party waiting to attack)
Main tank gets aggro, cleric heals enough to not draw more aggro than MT is giving and also for mana management, secondaries take care of add(s), debuff main target, glass cannons finish off main target, refocus... something like that it's been a while. But after that's all said and done, it's downtime. Clerics heal up to above 2/3 for the tanks and whomever else was hurt... casters stick their nose in a virtual book and are shut out from viewing the game around them and everyone waited for their natural regen. Until later levels (I forget... 30ish?) casters can finally meditate (regen mana faster) without having to stare at their spellbook. UNTIL then, casters are usually bored as hell and chat for the next 5-10 minutes because of the downtime. Once casters are good to go, healers top off health, and repeat the process.
It's a common misconception that people loved to chat in downtime just because they loved to socialize... it actually was brought about from casters being bored out of their f'ing minds in between trying to play a game.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
I think you're onto something.
We used to have MMO worlds that had gaming layered onto them, now we have MMO games that have worlds layered onto them.
That shift is what opened up the genre to the masses, & killed it at the same time, maybe at some point in the future we can get MMO worlds which are also great games & satisfy both styles.
I think this is just part of the idea that mmorpgs are not game but services. We are moving that direction with MTs and such. IIRC, it was Ralph Koster who said mmorpgs are services and not games.
If there is no black, how do you know what is white?
What if you went to a horror movie, and the villian begain to stab someone in the face, and then for the next hour and a half, he continued to stab people in the face?
Do you not understand the concept of pacing, or suspense, or contrast?
No its kind of like you want people to talk to you but apparently no one wants to, so you ask the devs to make them stop every 10 minutes and be nice to you.
As to your analogy, we pace ourselves by not pulling too fast. We see suspense when we are preparing for a boss fight. We see contrast by whether we win or die and whether good loot drops or just rot. And if I ever saw a movie where the good guys stopped to chat while the enemy was in sight I would just laugh.
lol'd hard.
*party attacks a few DW crocs and kills them off*
Cleric says: OOM medding.
Warrior says: k.
Warrior says: You see the new sword I got? Rare drop I camped 2 days for off this one mob. I thought my eyes were going to bleed.
*silence*
Warrior says: You there?
Warrior: ...
*two minutes pass*
Cleric: back
Warrior: k let me kno when u go afk again
Cleric: grabbed a smoke. 55%
Warrior: k
Warrior: Hail a sand giant
Warrior: move
Warrior: Hail a sand giant
Warrior: Hail a sand giant
Warrior: Hail a sand giant
*boom boom* *CRACK! CRUNCH!* (kills cleric and aggros on warrior)
Warrior yells: SG TO DOCKS! *CRUNCH* (warrior gets stunned and slowly spins around)
*CRUSH! warrior begins walking at 2inches per hour while hopping. *CRACK* warrior dies*
Cleric: Back
__________
yeah that'd be an awesome movie
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
You know, there's a lot of things that make for a good community, like several posters have already noted. One of them is a good PvP system. I remember that in DAoC there was a kind of permeating sense of 'nationality' which was very cool, because it meant that people would sometimes go out of their way to help others "for the cause". When I played Age of Conan there was something vaguely similar in the Culture PvP server (which, precisely after remembering how fun DAoC was, I didn't hesitate to jump in); we used to see this egyptian (I know they're not egyptian, but I remember them that way) guild that liked to raid the lowbie zones to kill everyone in sight, and there was this one time when we (hyboreans) started broadcasting for help along various zones. After 15 minutes or so, a lot of people responded to the call just because they were getting to kill those damn snake-lovers. The fight lasted for like an hour, and we even got some aquilonian guilds into the fray; the mayhem was grand, and it was a very fun battle. I met several good people that day, and I believe most of us were having a great time just kicking each other's asses. Of course, the game was a mess and I left shortly thereafter, but I think the community at the time was strong.
I had a similar, if a lot more tenuous, experience while playing Warhammer. Needless to say, DAoC was the greatest of those games in terms of establishing a strong sense of commitment with a community. I think Warhammer had too much of the 'do-it-for-the-loot' // "play scenarios like you're playing Unreal Tournament" mentality to work as effectively, but the potential was there. In any case, the most important thing is that DAoC had both a nice little space for downtime AND great PvP. The community was awesome... perhaps that's the key point developers need to reach again.
THIS IS STUPID.
Side effect = lose time doing nothing
Games already evolved past that point.
Trying to force socializing through... artificialy created breaks into gameplay...
Because... people arent stopping to socialize anymore?! HAHAHAHAHA
Listen kid, what I will tell you now will hurt your feelings.
A huge chunk of people play games for themselfs and a huge chunk of people just care about power, socializing in games doesnt affect either.
Socializing is dead.
Pretty much... but it's not just in MMO's. Try starting random conversations with five people tomorrow in real life... and not people who are working... random citizens. Walk right up to them and start talking away about your life, or the weather, or the funny thing you saw in-game. Let me know how that works out for everyone.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."