@Ginkeq Did we play the same EQ? Nearly all the fights were tank and spank that revolved around weaving in and out of a single AoE with the exception of a few "mass buff yourself constantly so your buffs aren't dispelled and survive the AoE you can't dodge with high resistances". 90% of the fights in EQ were decided by the pull and how well you pulled off the positioning. At least until PoP when a few (but not all, there were still plenty of the above) fights got more complex. I actually think when you look at the Vox encounter and compare it to say Trakanon or Velious encounters or Vex Thal you'll find it's no less complex (possibly even more complex) than those. WoW's fights got more complex from the offset until WotLK (where I agree they took a step back to bring more casuals up to par - one of the main reasons I'm no longer playing WoW). MC encounters were no different than most EQ encounters with maybe an easy gimmick to deal with. You had mostly tank and spank encounters. Golemagg was probably the least interesting raid encounter ever in WoW. With the release of BWL you got more complex encounters, but they still relied on mostly on EQ mechanics (Nefarion was probably the first really interesting fight). AQ40 rolls around and the fights got way more complex. Naxx was even better. The expansion didn't decrease the complexity either. Vashj and Kael'thas are complex fights. Most of the Black Temple fights are pretty fun too. I was admittedly pretty upset when they nerfed most of the heroic instances a few months after the expansions to make the difficult ones easier for the casual players. WotLK did make the fights less complex though. They took all the fights from Naxx and dumbed (most) of them down to support 25 man raiding. It seems your jaded that casual players can play on the same level as you now (and I can agrue with you that WoW and EQ were never about skill and more about time investment and knowledge - you want skill go play a FPS, RTS, or Fighting Game online). That they are given big rewards for doing things other than raiding... Does it really matter? There are still plenty of heavy "skill" oriented achievements that only the elite few can get in WoW (actually haven't played recently, but I'm sure there are still many of the difficult achievements and ways to make raiding more difficult has they had in WotLK). They show up on your profile too so now everyone can see how awesome you are. (I'm not a WoW fanboy either. I'm not playing WoW right now and haven't for almost a year. I just don't want to hate on a game I enjoyed for years and don't like seeing people make generalizations about the people who play WoW)
Jaded that casual players can play on the same level? No. I'm pissed that idiot newbs can play on the same level as a skilled player in WoW. Don't confuse time investment with skill. WoW raids used to require skill, now they don't. When i say skill,I'm not talking about time.
Not about skill? Lol. Why is it that so many guilds were stuck in Molten Core and on BWL trash? Is it because of a difference in knowledge? doubtful. Those players were inferior players, you can't call it time, or knowledge. That is because all of WoW encounters are posted online anyway. So if it was about knowledge and time, we would have seen more guilds in AQ/Naxx before the expansion was released.
Clearly pre-expansion WoW required a little more than showing up, but not anymore.
If WoW didn't exist EQ2 would probly be the dominate game with not even 1/4th the subs. And I miss 40 man Naxx. I haven't played through bc+ content because it took me forever to get full T3. And that was back when the level cap was 60. If I decided to play it again I won't worry about raiding because it gets boring. I'll just casualy go throuth outlands and northrend and if my guild whats me for something the great if not then i'd just continue on. Only down side to that is missing out on alot of lore and content. I'd love to kick ass on the maker. And play a death night after getting my priest to 80.
Dumbed down PvE system that gives gear to everyone who attempts it. - This has been going on since the first expansion came out, and 1 man quests had better gear than 40 man naxx. Then they started making the instances smaller & easier. Fake PvP system for carebears - Fighting in fake zones, called Arenas or Battlegrounds. PvP has no affect on your own server. World PvP is dead and meaningless in WoW because of instances.
40 mans had little to do with skill unless you were a cutting edge content clearing guild. It had to do with numbers, specifically finding 19 other dipshits skilled players with hours upon hours of time to carry 20 other players through areas that had already been mapped, documented and spoon fed to the curious masses by far more capable guilds.
WoW has a successful business model that every other game company tries like mad to emulate for a reason. I don't care for the game much any more, but I certainly understand why they are where they are in the food chain.
"There is a certain undeniable power in the void; within lies an unspoken promise of greatness, the shadowy truth that man is ruled by fear not of what is seen, but of what he perceives is seen beyond."
Ginkeq, for the most part, is right. WoW has been more and more streamlined to allow the more casual gamer to succeed. Most mmorpgs have evlolved this way over the years. Old school mmorpgs were huge time sinks that dolled out equal amounts of rewards and frustration. He looks back all glossy eyed and forgets the bad things and remembers only the good. EQ was far from a good game. It was addictive, hence its nickname evercrack. Mmorpgs back then were almost a lifestyle, not just a game. You lived them. Mobs with week long respawn timers, corpses lost over and over until you deleveled and lost everything, grinding mobs for belts, xp, rep, etc., were the norm back then. It was more work than relaxing.
I think they have gotten better over the years, imo, less time sink and more entertaining. Most of the problems certain people have with WoW or any of the themepark games out now is they focus more on being more entertaining and accessible to the majority.
I understand exactly what Gink is saying and agree almost 100%. I just don't agree that these things are necessarily bad. I don't look back at my eq days with rose colored glasses and forget all the irritation and frustration I felt. It wasn't all bad by any means. I enjoyed my years in EQ mostly due to my guildies and the almost continious expansions that kept adding new things to do.
As I grew older, and could focus less and less time on my mmorpg lifestyle, I found my attitude shifting from hardcore to more casual. I imagine this is the natural evolution of the mmorpg gamer. Now if you're in your 30s or 40s and still posting threads on these forums about how a game sucks, then you obviously have other issues and will probably just ignore all the common sense I just threw at you.
Ginkeq, for the most part, is right. WoW has been more and more streamlined to allow the more casual gamer to succeed. Most mmorpgs have evlolved this way over the years. Old school mmorpgs were huge time sinks that dolled out equal amounts of rewards and frustration. He looks back all glossy eyed and forgets the bad things and remembers only the good. EQ was far from a good game. It was addictive, hence its nickname evercrack. Mmorpgs back then were almost a lifestyle, not just a game. You lived them. Mobs with week long respawn timers, corpses lost over and over until you deleveled and lost everything, grinding mobs for belts, xp, rep, etc., were the norm back then. It was more work than relaxing. I think they have gotten better over the years, imo, less time sink and more entertaining. Most of the problems certain people have with WoW or any of the themepark games out now is they focus more on being more entertaining and accessible to the majority. I understand exactly what Gink is saying and agree almost 100%. I just don't agree that these things are necessarily bad. I don't look back at my eq days with rose colored glasses and forget all the irritation and frustration I felt. It wasn't all bad by any means. I enjoyed my years in EQ mostly due to my guildies and the almost continious expansions that kept adding new things to do. As I grew older, and could focus less and less time on my mmorpg lifestyle, I found my attitude shifting from hardcore to more casual. I imagine this is the natural evolution of the mmorpg gamer. Now if you're in your 30s or 40s and still posting threads on these forums about how a game sucks, then you obviously have other issues and will probably just ignore all the common sense I just threw at you.
QFT - what he said, yes.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Now if you're in your 30s or 40s and still posting threads on these forums about how a game sucks, then you obviously have other issues and will probably just ignore all the common sense I just threw at you.
Because sitting on forums in your late teens early 20s on a Saturday night posting in a thread about how a game sucks would make you perfectly adjusted and issue free = p
You sound like my kid, all of the sudden it is taboo for me to post on the game forums because I aged with the genre. I would elaborate but Wheel of Fortune is coming on in 15 and my Metamucil is kicking in.
"There is a certain undeniable power in the void; within lies an unspoken promise of greatness, the shadowy truth that man is ruled by fear not of what is seen, but of what he perceives is seen beyond."
Ginkeq, for the most part, is right. WoW has been more and more streamlined to allow the more casual gamer to succeed. Most mmorpgs have evlolved this way over the years. Old school mmorpgs were huge time sinks that dolled out equal amounts of rewards and frustration. He looks back all glossy eyed and forgets the bad things and remembers only the good. EQ was far from a good game. It was addictive, hence its nickname evercrack. Mmorpgs back then were almost a lifestyle, not just a game. You lived them. Mobs with week long respawn timers, corpses lost over and over until you deleveled and lost everything, grinding mobs for belts, xp, rep, etc., were the norm back then. It was more work than relaxing. I think they have gotten better over the years, imo, less time sink and more entertaining. Most of the problems certain people have with WoW or any of the themepark games out now is they focus more on being more entertaining and accessible to the majority. I understand exactly what Gink is saying and agree almost 100%. I just don't agree that these things are necessarily bad. I don't look back at my eq days with rose colored glasses and forget all the irritation and frustration I felt. It wasn't all bad by any means. I enjoyed my years in EQ mostly due to my guildies and the almost continious expansions that kept adding new things to do. As I grew older, and could focus less and less time on my mmorpg lifestyle, I found my attitude shifting from hardcore to more casual. I imagine this is the natural evolution of the mmorpg gamer. Now if you're in your 30s or 40s and still posting threads on these forums about how a game sucks, then you obviously have other issues and will probably just ignore all the common sense I just threw at you.
Ok, Metamucil jokes aside. I can agree with many of these points. After kids, wife aggro, my business, and the like I stopped having time to spend all night with a bunch of like minded geeks trying to farm a dragon that was going to take a few hours to drop.
Now I find a game that makes the time pass and I enjoy it. I can't devote the sheer amount of time to have the same great gear my successors do. Instead I just putz around and have a blast doing it.
"There is a certain undeniable power in the void; within lies an unspoken promise of greatness, the shadowy truth that man is ruled by fear not of what is seen, but of what he perceives is seen beyond."
Now if you're in your 30s or 40s and still posting threads on these forums about how a game sucks, then you obviously have other issues and will probably just ignore all the common sense I just threw at you.
Because sitting on forums in your late teens early 20s on a Saturday night posting in a thread about how a game sucks would make you perfectly adjusted and issue free = p
You sound like my kid, all of the sudden it is taboo for me to post on the game forums because I aged with the genre. I would elaborate but Wheel of Fortune is coming on in 15 and my Metamucil is kicking in.
ROFL, sorry. I didn't mean that anyone in their 30s, 40s that post here are wrong for doing so. I just think it's on the odd side that someone my age, 39 btw, would care that much to post how much they hate a game and the people that play it. Now it can be argued that I apparently care enough to post here defending a game, but I don't see myself as so much defending WoW as trying to put things into perspective.
How is it ok that they made the game more "accessible" to casual players?
I'm not ok with it. They don't have any content for players who aren't complete morons.
And their PvP system sucks. You fight people who aren't even on your server, it has no effect. World PvP is gone, not that it had any meaning due to instanced PvE.
Why play such a trashy game? Even if you are a casual, why play it? When you and 1000 other of your class has the same gear, do the same PvE instances, and are just a number in WoW. Is that supposed to be fun?
WoW is an MMORPG with no challenge, no risk, no PvP, and no immersion. It's one of the worst MMORPGs ever made along with EVE.
Yes, I agree frothing at the mouth over any game at our age (any age really) is pointless. We usually can afford to just buy up something less suck and move on. The joys of being old, wise and employed .
My great wow exodus was supposed to be WAR, unfortunately that game went down like a hooker at a Amway convention. So right now I fiddle with DDO.
"There is a certain undeniable power in the void; within lies an unspoken promise of greatness, the shadowy truth that man is ruled by fear not of what is seen, but of what he perceives is seen beyond."
"Not about skill? Lol. Why is it that so many guilds were stuck in Molten Core and on BWL trash? Is it because of a difference in knowledge? doubtful. Those players were inferior players, you can't call it time, or knowledge. That is because all of WoW encounters are posted online anyway. So if it was about knowledge and time, we would have seen more guilds in AQ/Naxx before the expansion was released."
There are several reasons for this:
1. Less means of getting gear. As you put it so nicely: No Welfare Epics. Beating WoW encounters is primarily about how much gear you have, not skill. In order to advance to MC level you had to farm blue drops in 5 mans till you had a few people in their crappy sets and other pieces. Then you could do the first few bosses in MC. Then you needed about a month of farming to do the remaining bosses. To progress to BWL you need your tanks in a decent amount of MC epics and so on. There was no way to get epics aside from extreme luck (and those epics were never MC quality level) or raiding.
2. Higher population. There are more people now and so there is more raiding.
3. Smaller amount of people needed to raid. Cutting the size down to 25 made it easier to field a group. It's likely more than doubled raiding since smaller guilds could now raid (and more guilds were formed as a result of the cut in size).
4. Larger amount of information going around about raid encounters (mostly due to the larger population and player's experience in game and raiding). There are a lot more sites devoted to giving out step by step instructions on how to do every single encounter in WoW's end game.
5. Casuals were still leveling up (1-50 was longer than 50-60).
WoW has and still does obvious progression in complexity of the encounters. Going from MC to BWL was a huge jump in complexity of the encounters (compare Chromagus to Majordomo or Ragnaros to Nefarion on how many actions each individual player needs to perform). The encounters even got extremely complex in AQ40 (especially C'thun) and Naxx (especially 4 Horsemen). TBC was no different and there were plenty encounters just as complex. You seem to be conveniently forgetting just how long it took the first guild to down Vashj, Kael'thas, and Illidan (2 months, 3 months+, 1 month respectively?). It wasn't like these guilds who did it first just went in there and killed them with their "welfare epics" they got from heroics.
Still none of these encounters involved a huge amount of skill. Spam your DPS rotation or heal. Follow whatever rules are set. If your DPS and healing > Boss encounter and you are properly following directions = win. It's not exactly hard to move out of a void portal on the ground or rotate position when the raid leader says so. I was a hardcore raider in EQ (up to the end of PoP) and WoW (up to the end of TBC ) and didn't find any of these raids to involve a huge amount of skill.
I'm not confusing time investment with skill either. Ask any hardcore raider how much time they spent on average per week on WoW (and then average their guild's total) then ask a more casual guild how much they spend on WoW. You might see the numbers getting closer and closer with WotLK, but chances are the old school raiders hours played are miles apart from the casuals.
What game are you playing atm, Gink? I'm just curious because it must be one hell of a hardcore game to keep you happy, lol. I don't actually play WoW anymore mostly due to being bored to tears from it. So if you know a game that you are enthusiastic about, let me know, I'll try it.
Subspace, but that's not an MMORPG. I'm still waiting for a real MMORPG to come out... All I want is World PvE and World PvP, is that too fucking hard for the idiot MMO companies catering to idiots
Yes that is very hard, which is why so many games lose more people than they retain in the first few months. PvP and PvE are incredibly hard aspects to balance on their own, let alone together. That is why almost no game has done it.
You lashing out at companies and players will not change that.
Dumbed down PvE system that gives gear to everyone who attempts it. - This has been going on since the first expansion came out, and 1 man quests had better gear than 40 man naxx. Then they started making the instances smaller & easier. Fake PvP system for carebears - Fighting in fake zones, called Arenas or Battlegrounds. PvP has no affect on your own server. World PvP is dead and meaningless in WoW because of instances.
Isn't there enough threads like this and it belongs in the WOW forums not here :P but oh well I'll put my 2 cents in :Why WOW Sucks? It brought every noob and asshat from consoles to WOW, it makes me wish at times computers were still unaffordable to the poor..... perhaps we wouldn't have seen the decline of western civilization and pc gaming :O
Originally posted by Gameloading Why do people keep complaining their old gear becomes worthless after a new expansion comes out? What, you rather have half of the new content to be completely worthless to you? Also PVE hasn't been made easier. If you ever found any mmorpg challenging, congratulations: You suck at games. MMORPGs are a lot of things. They are fun, social, time consuming, rewarding but challenging is one thing they are not. 40 man raids aren't more challenging, they are just more time consuming. Sorry to hear you don't like the changes, but most people do not want to have to join at standard times each day and having to play just to keep their guild happy so they can keep doing big raids.
A guy commenting on a complete genre on many challenges never tried claims to call it all unchallenging. You might want to look this word up- it's very appropiate - Bigot.
Comments
Jaded that casual players can play on the same level? No. I'm pissed that idiot newbs can play on the same level as a skilled player in WoW. Don't confuse time investment with skill. WoW raids used to require skill, now they don't. When i say skill,I'm not talking about time.
Not about skill? Lol. Why is it that so many guilds were stuck in Molten Core and on BWL trash? Is it because of a difference in knowledge? doubtful. Those players were inferior players, you can't call it time, or knowledge. That is because all of WoW encounters are posted online anyway. So if it was about knowledge and time, we would have seen more guilds in AQ/Naxx before the expansion was released.
Clearly pre-expansion WoW required a little more than showing up, but not anymore.
Amazing that he was able to put those two phrases together...
Look, it was either easy or hard. Make a choice and then get off the forums
My guild worked hard, cleared BWL, AQ, Naxx.
The rest of you guys tried and failed, and led to dumbed down content for all of us.
If WoW didn't exist EQ2 would probly be the dominate game with not even 1/4th the subs. And I miss 40 man Naxx. I haven't played through bc+ content because it took me forever to get full T3. And that was back when the level cap was 60. If I decided to play it again I won't worry about raiding because it gets boring. I'll just casualy go throuth outlands and northrend and if my guild whats me for something the great if not then i'd just continue on. Only down side to that is missing out on alot of lore and content. I'd love to kick ass on the maker. And play a death night after getting my priest to 80.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
40 mans had little to do with skill unless you were a cutting edge content clearing guild. It had to do with numbers, specifically finding 19 other dipshits skilled players with hours upon hours of time to carry 20 other players through areas that had already been mapped, documented and spoon fed to the curious masses by far more capable guilds.
WoW has a successful business model that every other game company tries like mad to emulate for a reason. I don't care for the game much any more, but I certainly understand why they are where they are in the food chain.
"There is a certain undeniable power in the void; within lies an unspoken promise of greatness, the shadowy truth that man is ruled by fear not of what is seen, but of what he perceives is seen beyond."
Ginkeq, for the most part, is right. WoW has been more and more streamlined to allow the more casual gamer to succeed. Most mmorpgs have evlolved this way over the years. Old school mmorpgs were huge time sinks that dolled out equal amounts of rewards and frustration. He looks back all glossy eyed and forgets the bad things and remembers only the good. EQ was far from a good game. It was addictive, hence its nickname evercrack. Mmorpgs back then were almost a lifestyle, not just a game. You lived them. Mobs with week long respawn timers, corpses lost over and over until you deleveled and lost everything, grinding mobs for belts, xp, rep, etc., were the norm back then. It was more work than relaxing.
I think they have gotten better over the years, imo, less time sink and more entertaining. Most of the problems certain people have with WoW or any of the themepark games out now is they focus more on being more entertaining and accessible to the majority.
I understand exactly what Gink is saying and agree almost 100%. I just don't agree that these things are necessarily bad. I don't look back at my eq days with rose colored glasses and forget all the irritation and frustration I felt. It wasn't all bad by any means. I enjoyed my years in EQ mostly due to my guildies and the almost continious expansions that kept adding new things to do.
As I grew older, and could focus less and less time on my mmorpg lifestyle, I found my attitude shifting from hardcore to more casual. I imagine this is the natural evolution of the mmorpg gamer. Now if you're in your 30s or 40s and still posting threads on these forums about how a game sucks, then you obviously have other issues and will probably just ignore all the common sense I just threw at you.
QFT - what he said, yes.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Because sitting on forums in your late teens early 20s on a Saturday night posting in a thread about how a game sucks would make you perfectly adjusted and issue free = p
You sound like my kid, all of the sudden it is taboo for me to post on the game forums because I aged with the genre. I would elaborate but Wheel of Fortune is coming on in 15 and my Metamucil is kicking in.
"There is a certain undeniable power in the void; within lies an unspoken promise of greatness, the shadowy truth that man is ruled by fear not of what is seen, but of what he perceives is seen beyond."
Amazing that he was able to put those two phrases together...
Look, it was either easy or hard. Make a choice and then get off the forums
My guild worked hard, cleared BWL, AQ, Naxx.
The rest of you guys tried and failed, and led to dumbed down content for all of us.
Sound a lot like a granddaddy... back in the days when we use to walk to school barefooted in the snow both ways...
Relax...no one cares what you did. We all did it when we still played it...
Ok, Metamucil jokes aside. I can agree with many of these points. After kids, wife aggro, my business, and the like I stopped having time to spend all night with a bunch of like minded geeks trying to farm a dragon that was going to take a few hours to drop.
Now I find a game that makes the time pass and I enjoy it. I can't devote the sheer amount of time to have the same great gear my successors do. Instead I just putz around and have a blast doing it.
"There is a certain undeniable power in the void; within lies an unspoken promise of greatness, the shadowy truth that man is ruled by fear not of what is seen, but of what he perceives is seen beyond."
Because sitting on forums in your late teens early 20s on a Saturday night posting in a thread about how a game sucks would make you perfectly adjusted and issue free = p
You sound like my kid, all of the sudden it is taboo for me to post on the game forums because I aged with the genre. I would elaborate but Wheel of Fortune is coming on in 15 and my Metamucil is kicking in.
ROFL, sorry. I didn't mean that anyone in their 30s, 40s that post here are wrong for doing so. I just think it's on the odd side that someone my age, 39 btw, would care that much to post how much they hate a game and the people that play it. Now it can be argued that I apparently care enough to post here defending a game, but I don't see myself as so much defending WoW as trying to put things into perspective.
How is it ok that they made the game more "accessible" to casual players?
I'm not ok with it. They don't have any content for players who aren't complete morons.
And their PvP system sucks. You fight people who aren't even on your server, it has no effect. World PvP is gone, not that it had any meaning due to instanced PvE.
Why play such a trashy game? Even if you are a casual, why play it? When you and 1000 other of your class has the same gear, do the same PvE instances, and are just a number in WoW. Is that supposed to be fun?
WoW is an MMORPG with no challenge, no risk, no PvP, and no immersion. It's one of the worst MMORPGs ever made along with EVE.
Nah, I was just busting your hump.
Yes, I agree frothing at the mouth over any game at our age (any age really) is pointless. We usually can afford to just buy up something less suck and move on. The joys of being old, wise and employed .
My great wow exodus was supposed to be WAR, unfortunately that game went down like a hooker at a Amway convention. So right now I fiddle with DDO.
"There is a certain undeniable power in the void; within lies an unspoken promise of greatness, the shadowy truth that man is ruled by fear not of what is seen, but of what he perceives is seen beyond."
"Not about skill? Lol. Why is it that so many guilds were stuck in Molten Core and on BWL trash? Is it because of a difference in knowledge? doubtful. Those players were inferior players, you can't call it time, or knowledge. That is because all of WoW encounters are posted online anyway. So if it was about knowledge and time, we would have seen more guilds in AQ/Naxx before the expansion was released."
There are several reasons for this:
1. Less means of getting gear. As you put it so nicely: No Welfare Epics. Beating WoW encounters is primarily about how much gear you have, not skill. In order to advance to MC level you had to farm blue drops in 5 mans till you had a few people in their crappy sets and other pieces. Then you could do the first few bosses in MC. Then you needed about a month of farming to do the remaining bosses. To progress to BWL you need your tanks in a decent amount of MC epics and so on. There was no way to get epics aside from extreme luck (and those epics were never MC quality level) or raiding.
2. Higher population. There are more people now and so there is more raiding.
3. Smaller amount of people needed to raid. Cutting the size down to 25 made it easier to field a group. It's likely more than doubled raiding since smaller guilds could now raid (and more guilds were formed as a result of the cut in size).
4. Larger amount of information going around about raid encounters (mostly due to the larger population and player's experience in game and raiding). There are a lot more sites devoted to giving out step by step instructions on how to do every single encounter in WoW's end game.
5. Casuals were still leveling up (1-50 was longer than 50-60).
WoW has and still does obvious progression in complexity of the encounters. Going from MC to BWL was a huge jump in complexity of the encounters (compare Chromagus to Majordomo or Ragnaros to Nefarion on how many actions each individual player needs to perform). The encounters even got extremely complex in AQ40 (especially C'thun) and Naxx (especially 4 Horsemen). TBC was no different and there were plenty encounters just as complex. You seem to be conveniently forgetting just how long it took the first guild to down Vashj, Kael'thas, and Illidan (2 months, 3 months+, 1 month respectively?). It wasn't like these guilds who did it first just went in there and killed them with their "welfare epics" they got from heroics.
Still none of these encounters involved a huge amount of skill. Spam your DPS rotation or heal. Follow whatever rules are set. If your DPS and healing > Boss encounter and you are properly following directions = win. It's not exactly hard to move out of a void portal on the ground or rotate position when the raid leader says so. I was a hardcore raider in EQ (up to the end of PoP) and WoW (up to the end of TBC ) and didn't find any of these raids to involve a huge amount of skill.
I'm not confusing time investment with skill either. Ask any hardcore raider how much time they spent on average per week on WoW (and then average their guild's total) then ask a more casual guild how much they spend on WoW. You might see the numbers getting closer and closer with WotLK, but chances are the old school raiders hours played are miles apart from the casuals.
What game are you playing atm, Gink? I'm just curious because it must be one hell of a hardcore game to keep you happy, lol. I don't actually play WoW anymore mostly due to being bored to tears from it. So if you know a game that you are enthusiastic about, let me know, I'll try it.
Subspace, but that's not an MMORPG.
I'm still waiting for a real MMORPG to come out...
All I want is World PvE and World PvP, is that too fucking hard for the idiot MMO companies catering to idiots
Yes that is very hard, which is why so many games lose more people than they retain in the first few months. PvP and PvE are incredibly hard aspects to balance on their own, let alone together. That is why almost no game has done it.
You lashing out at companies and players will not change that.
Isn't there enough threads like this and it belongs in the WOW forums not here :P but oh well I'll put my 2 cents in :Why WOW Sucks? It brought every noob and asshat from consoles to WOW, it makes me wish at times computers were still unaffordable to the poor..... perhaps we wouldn't have seen the decline of western civilization and pc gaming :O
Oh look another one of these threads. Site has just really gone down hill the last few years.