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How could anyone choose the themepark over the sandbox?
Scottc
Member Posts: 680
Considering that the theme park forces you down a developer designed pathways whereas the sandbox allows you to do what you want. How could anyone possibly hate the idea of doing what they want? The sandbox provides far more alternatives and it also provides a much more meaningful sense of purpose. Consider PvP in a themepark game. You have instanced battlegrounds or you can kill other players. They don't drop anything when they die. The battlegrounds have you fighting for points or kill count. This is not meaningful. Consider a sandbox game. When you PvP in a sandbox game, you're fighting for loot, or maybe for honor. Consider someone killing the wrong person. Clans might go to war. Consider a clan that controls too many resources, again you have a war, you're fighting for something, something that is more meaningful than points, something that affects the game world. It's unfortunate though that sandbox games haven't yet allowed PvE content to change the world (aside from Asheron's Call).
Comments
I choose whatever is good but the problem with sandbox games is there aren't any good ones and they always release buggy with no content. Like frigging put quests in them so I have something to do please! Like SWG when that launched I loved it to bits but everyone stood around in cities because there was no content.
You say how can anyone hate the idea of doing what they want and then somehow imply that in a theme park you don't get to do what you want. If you go to any large well run theme park there are a wide variety of things to do such as a games arcade, roller coasters, performance shows and places to eat. You get to choose what you want to do and when you want to do it though yes your choice of options are constrained. On the other hand I could go sit in a sand box with my bucket and spade and start to build a nice little sand castle and hope that someone else comes along who wants to help me though I probably will end up with someone bigger who decides to jump on my castle and push me into the corner while they dig a big moat in the middle of the sandbox.
Not a hard choice for many people to be honest. Both can be fun but the basic assumption that simply having a no rules set makes up for a lack of content and structure is a false premise. Both types of games need content and a structure to hang onto, i.e. the theme and falling into the trap of calling a game one thing or another ignores what each game brings to the table.
1. Themeparks can be very wide in their options just like sandboxes can be very shallow in depth. One pro to themeparks being a better handle on balance, and starker role definition.
2. People can do what they want in themeparks. Your idea of 'what you want' doesn't match another's necessarily. Equally, every game is limiting at some point, to include sandboxes, so it's really just a question of a gamer's wants that lie inside of a limiting boundary.
3. Instanced battlegrounds are not exclusively themepark, nor is themepark pvp necessarily limited to instanced battlegrounds. Your assumption would hint at a poor understanding of themepark title options.
4. Not dropping anything when something dies rates where on meaningfulness? It's just your preference that something does.
5. You state that sandbox pvp has you fighting for loot, maybe honor, and themepark pvp is fighting for points or kill count. If one would take your own example, you're arguing the same thing. Honor is currency just like points would be. What is 'themepark pvp' points used for? To purchase loot, the same thing you would have claimed as being dropped during 'sandbox pvp'.
6. Consider killing the wrong person in ANY game. People call in their buddies, this might escalate to a routine event, turning into grudges or kill on sight. This could be a singular target (player) or a collective (clan/guild/legion). Your examples take place in any game.
7. You like AC.
If yours was a rant, it was unnecessary. If you were attempting to spark discussion, a suggestion would be to incur personal insights from players, while establishing a basis for discussion: what are the pros and cons to a themepark, pros and cons to a sandbox, and why does that style of play specifically call to you?
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
Fallen Earth is considered a sandbox for the most part. It's a good game & it has missions (quests) to do.
For me it isn't I dislike the idea of doing what I want it is more that of all the sandbox games I have played there was nothing worth doing.
I don't consider droping items meaningful in any sense, I would rather have a reason to fight based on lore not material gain or loss. Or clan owned land, where wars are fought to control territory and gain wealth, to me that is kind of shallow, it isn't a good motivator to make me care about fighting, not to mention player ran clans have no history or purpose beyond getting more stuff and are largely interchangable with other clans. So I guess it affects the world but in a way I don't care about.
Granted in games like WoW the quests I do will revert back to normal so the next guy can do them, and of course I would like there to be more variation and make he world more dynamic than it is but in the mean time I at least get to experience the lore and personality of well designed world. And I really think you need to have the focus on developer made content if you want higher quality content, whereas sandboxes rely on players making most the content, in terms of guild battles and so forth, which I think makes for a very mundane world without the depth that good developer content can bring.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Fallen Earth is considered a sandbox for the most part. It's a good game & it has missions (quests) to do.
Yeh but I didn't like the combat or the graphics and frigging there was no player housing which I thought a game like that needs.
Fallen Earth is considered a sandbox for the most part. It's a good game & it has missions (quests) to do.
Yeh but I didn't like the combat or the graphics and frigging there was no player housing which I thought a game like that needs.
Yeah the graphics aren't the best, they're not something you would expect in 09/10, but they're doable. The combat is okay, it's not an A+ by any means, but its decent imo. However, as far as I know there have been enough people begging for player housing so I am pretty sure they will implement some form of that in the near future.
The game has only been out since the end of September and from what I've heard has come a pretty long ways since then. It has the bones of a great MMO, now they just need to put some skin on it and from what I've seen already, they are doing that.
I'd say if its player housing that drew the line for you, check back in the future and you might be pleasantly surprised.
If its the graphics that swayed you, well... I guess it really isn't for you.
Ah, the traditional post.
"I don't understand how you can like something I don't."
It's called preference. Yours is not the only valid one.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
In general, sandboxes do not add any linear content. This is good for some, but to most gamers it makes the game unattractive for a variety of reasons. Most gamers are pretty content to play the game without needing to think much about it, and thus the reason linear games do so well. That being said, I also feel that most gamers would be interested in participating in sandbox content, BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF LINEAR CONTENT. This is why I have repeated over and over that the next "big game" will be a hybrid. The sandbox is too niche. Linear is not. The combination of the two playstyles is necessary to have any sort of highly successful sandbox.
When you think about it, this isn't really that hard to do. We could even use SWG for an example. About a year in, they added the Correlian Corvette instance. Although I wouldn't call it a huge hit, it was the right direction. More instances like the Corvette would have provided a nice amount of linear focus inside the sandbox, and a lot more people would have stayed rather than the niche market of crafters and those who had to have the alpha class jedi (I'm not even gonna get into alpha classes now). SWG had some issues, but its primary failure was not satisfying the population that wanted to do some good old-fashioned linear dungeon running. When you have the option to BOTH craft AND participate in linear content, your gameplay options increase dramatically. Take away one or the other and you'll rarely get a subscriber for more than 1.5 - 2 years.
In the end, sandboxes fail BECAUSE they are sandboxes. By refusing to break out of the "must be non-linear" mold, sandboxes doom themselves from the very start.
On (Real) Themeparks
Why do people go to real life themeparks instead of just walking around in parks?
Because effort was put into making those predefined paths fun and enjoyable.
On PVP
One group wants decisions made during the battle to matter ("meaning" is that the game rewards the more skilled player with victory). The other group finds "meaning" in taking the other guy's stuff (stuff could be gear or land or castles or whatever.) Both groups want their actions to "matter", but what matters to each group is different.
The two game concepts are in tension. You can't have a game where player combat decisions matter a lot, where the results of capturing gear/land also matters a lot.
If you make a pie chart and call it "What Wins Fights?", it'll be a division between player skill and the myriad of other factors that go into winning fights. The pie chart looks different in each game. As the non-player skill factors increase, player skill decreases. Thus, as the magnitude of advantage gained from capturing land or gear increases, the role of player skill decreases and fights become less interesting.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I get jazzed up on what I think will be good games for my taste, whether they are themepark or sandbox. It just so happens I haven't liked a sandbox game since Ultima Online. All these other ones just don't suit what I like or how I like to play.
I like instanced pvp and I like world pvp. In instanced pvp I know I'm going to at least get some what of a fair fight, and if I do die I'll be back in the action. It's more fast paced, more dialed in to the actual fighting, and allows you to re-think, and get back at it. I like world pvp too it's usually done in a way that doesn't suit my play style though. DAOC would be the last game to do it right for me, despite my attitude and opinion on its boring, easy to use, combat system. However that's probably theme park too for some people.
Because some people want direction to their gaming: a goal, a purpose. However artificial, quests supply that. A true sandbox game is goalless, and somewhat aimless. Not everyone wants to have to create their own game, some just want to play someone else's. I refuse to judge which is superior, it is solely a matter of taste.
Missed the WoW forum by THIS much...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Actually it's not that hard to believe that someone would choose themepark over sandbox. (Aside from personal preference of course).
The way I look at it is this. In a themepark mmo, all the fun stuff is already built and waiting for me, all I have to do is get in line and then enjoy the ride. With a sandbox mmo, I have to build the fun myself. I enjoy legos as much as the next guy who still clings to his childhood, but sometimes you just want to skip the work and go to the fun.
Some people get a lot of satisfaction out of creating, but some people just want to buckle in and throw their hands in the air.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Simple answer, most players do not have enough time to invest to a sandbox community. Also, it is hard to get that same sense of accomplishment in a sandbox MMO, as opposed to defeating the hardest raid encounter in a themepark game.
How can anyone choose sweeten coffee with milk over black coffee ?
If you can answer that, then you can answer your own question.
How could anyone choose the themepark over the sandbox?
For the same reason some people read books and others write them. And, like with MMOs, the readers are in the majority.
As for having the developers content shoved down your throat: much like books you choose the content you like so you actually *enjoy* playing it.
Very well said.
The three main MMOs I play right now are EVE Online, AION and Combat Arms.
In EVE I PvP, play the market and try to collect faction ships faster than I can get myself blown up in them. In AION, I have a lot of fun leveling and grouping up for quests. In Combat Arms, I enjoy the nonstop fragfest.
I get the feeling there's a lot of people like me ho like a bit of everything, and that it's rather rare for a person to play one style of game exclusively, especially the sandbox style, which usually requires a lot more dedication to be a part of the core community.
EDIT: Great comparison,Tacboy!
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
A very misplaced metaphor there. When playing a sandbox MMO you are tied to a strict ruleset and in many ways, if you dig down to the bare essentials, there is not much difference between a sandbox and themepark MMO, besides pre-generated content.
I am waiting for an MMO that incorporates both a sandbox and themepark element successfully.
In principle I would prefer freedom over constraint, so I prefer sandboxes. However, part of freedom is the choice to do what you want, not just what the sandbox developers think you want. So a game which has only PvP and very little PvE content is not really a sandbox since it is forcing you into a particular playstyle. Despite appearances, there really is no freedom.
So rather than ask how "anyone choose the themepark over the sandbox", ask how anyone can choose an immersive, story driven but linear game over one that pretends to be a sandbox, but in actuality has no real content or player choice.
How can any one choose reading a book over watching a the movie?It is a matter of personal choice
The real question is why don't mmo fans realize that you can put a themepark in sandbox.
You know I really don't see sandboxes being about freedom or creativity. So I don't think it is about some people prefer creating and others doing or some people like to think others don't or some want to create their own adventure and others don't and so forth, because that comes off as very elitest.
I think it is mostly in the way you present it.
In a sandbox the "adventures" you create would be considered grinding in any other circumstance, you grind for skills, grind for materials, grind guild battles for territory and so on. The difference is that you are selling to a player driven economy, fighting other players for virtual property and the like, but you are grinding. Just like in games like WoW, I don't use the term themepark because it is a stupid word design to insult people who play those games, the "adventures" you have you grind for levels, grind for money, grind for weapons, grind for mounts and so forth. The justification is just different, in one you care about the made up world of player motives, the other the made up world of developer lore.
So I would not liken sandbox players to those that create and "themepark" players as those that don't want to have to or unable to create their own fun, because that is just pretentious. The difference is in whether you give a crap about a player driven economy or tales of the elder gods. Indeed if you look at games like Fallout 3 it has the hallmarks of a "themepark" game being driven by the developer and all, but does let player find their own fun in the wasteland.
Though people play it off as simple preference I often detect a hint of superiority coming from sandbox players but your choice of game in no way means you are more intelligence, mature or creative than those that don't, you just find clan battles and player economy interesting where as I find holiday events and story more interesting.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Don't assume the vocal minority is any representation of the rest of us.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Name a single decent sandbox MMO that allows me to do anything I want and I will happily go and play it. So far I havent seen any that I want to play. Take Ryzom for example. Thats considered to be a sandbox game. It doesnt force you down a particular route and yet I found it completely boring. It was the same as any themepark game except all the text files (aka quests) are removed. A 3d landscape littered with mobs and harvest nodes just like any other mmo. Go anywhere and do anything. Great so what are my choices? Kill mobs. Harvest stuff. Make stuff. Kill players. Chat to people.....basicly the same repetitive stuff I would be doing in any other MMO.
What other sandbox games are there?
Eve. Only parts of that game have sandbox qualities. Most of it is static and unchangeable by the players.
Wurm Online. I havent played it. It looks like it offers plenty of freedom......but it also looks outdated and......very very quiet and uneventful.
Darkfall. Lots of naked immortal people running around killing each other for no particular reason. Build some structures. Destroy someone elses structures........but why?
Second Life. This is basicly the best sandbox game available. Its sandbox qualities are so good that it isnt even a game. Players can do and make anything they like, and yet because the devs dont have any rules or structure for the gameworld then you end up with everyone literally doing anything and everything. Its a giant mess basicly.
I'm not interested in either of those games. So what else is there? There simply isnt a decent selection of online games that allows the players to effect each other and the game world in any particularly meaningful way. There are however a lot of limited themepark games to choose from......but then thats hardly surprising because games developers have experience at making hand crafted single player games and thats all most mmos are. They're just low quality single player games placed on a server and opened up for everyone to play at the same time.
You talk about sandbox games as though there are lots of them and all of them are really good games that offer endless variety. There arent. If sandbox games were so brilliant then everyone would be playing them. You're basicly comparing games which dont exist (ie great sandbox games which offer endless player freedom and world changing capabilities) to games which do exist. Start this thread up again in 10 or 20 years when online games have started taking full advantage of the internet.
I was going to do the "novel vs writing class" thing, but Legos is absolutely the perfect metaphor.
Sometimes, you just want a big box of legos to make whatever you want.
But sometimes, you want to make the Millenium Falcon. And if you have to spend 12 hours figuring out what pieces you need, how many you need, how they fit, etc, that can be amazingly fun (for some) or a huge waste of time (for others).
When you have the big box of legos, sometimes you make the Taj Mahal, and sometimes you make yet another thing that kinda looks like a spaceship, if you go "vroom vroom" while you're holding it.
I personally like knowing someone has looked at my legos and said 'Yeah, this'll make a good spaceship.'
Conversely, my son isn't getting any of those "pre-packaged" lego kits until he's made a hell of a lot of cool stuff with the box of legos.
Who am I?
@Lorechaser on CoH
Badjuju, Splinterhoof, Plainsrunner on WoW (Moonrunner)
Shyy'rissk on SWG (Flurry)
ClockworkSoldier, HE Pierce, Letnev on Planetside
Gyshe, Crucible, Terrakal on DDO
And many more.