Originally posted by pojung 1. Themeparks can be very wide in their options just like sandboxes can be very shallow in depth. One pro to themeparks being a better handle on balance, and starker role definition.
Giving the player many options is a sandbox thing. In theme parks progression tends to be limited to doing quests/killing things. Leveling up or gaining items through crafting or exploration tend to be impossible ways to progress at a reasonable rate, which is unfortunate because progression is the main focus of themeparks. The word balance has no place in this discussion by the way.
2. People can do what they want in themeparks. Your idea of 'what you want' doesn't match another's necessarily. Equally, every game is limiting at some point, to include sandboxes, so it's really just a question of a gamer's wants that lie inside of a limiting boundary.
Consider character development. Every themepark game that I've tried within the last month have offered me classes with specific focuses. I have little to no choice in what kind of weapon I want to use, what kind of armor to use, and I'm limited to a specific role in combat rather than defining my own. I can't see how anyone would think being locked into a specific role is a good thing. You're right at the end though, although I question if the gamer has been gaming long enough to accurately know what they really want. I've never met an oldschool gamer who prefers themepark style MMORPGs like WoW.
3. Instanced battlegrounds are not exclusively themepark, nor is themepark pvp necessarily limited to instanced battlegrounds. Your assumption would hint at a poor understanding of themepark title options.
Maybe you're right. A sandbox would be pretty shitty though to include instanced battlegrounds, since one purpose of a sandbox is to create a virtual society.
4. Not dropping anything when something dies rates where on meaningfulness? It's just your preference that something does.
Do you really think death is meaningful if you lose barely anything at all when you die? Ohhh no you have to repair your armor! It takes a minute to do and a little bit of gold! Ultimately it's meaningless and provides you with little to no reason to not die.
5. You state that sandbox pvp has you fighting for loot, maybe honor, and themepark pvp is fighting for points or kill count. If one would take your own example, you're arguing the same thing. Honor is currency just like points would be. What is 'themepark pvp' points used for? To purchase loot, the same thing you would have claimed as being dropped during 'sandbox pvp'.
Interesting point, although what the hell is the point of killing someone if it doesn't leave a mark? Seriously it's like beating each other up with foam baseball bats.
6. Consider killing the wrong person in ANY game. People call in their buddies, this might escalate to a routine event, turning into grudges or kill on sight. This could be a singular target (player) or a collective (clan/guild/legion). Your examples take place in any game.
What does it matter? Nothing is on the line. Why should a player even care if they're killed? Why bother even fighting if there's nothing to lose, nothing to win? Ok, maybe you get bragging rights and a bigger ego if you're a retarded prick, but that's it.
7. You like AC.
You played it? It's not perfect, but I think it excels in more areas than most MMORPGs. Especially PvE content and combat.
You know I really don't see sandboxes being about freedom or creativity. So I don't think it is about some people prefer creating and others doing or some people like to think others don't or some want to create their own adventure and others don't and so forth, because that comes off as very elitest. I think it is mostly in the way you present it. In a sandbox the "adventures" you create would be considered grinding in any other circumstance, you grind for skills, grind for materials, grind guild battles for territory and so on. The difference is that you are selling to a player driven economy, fighting other players for virtual property and the like, but you are grinding. Just like in games like WoW, I don't use the term themepark because it is a stupid word design to insult people who play those games, the "adventures" you have you grind for levels, grind for money, grind for weapons, grind for mounts and so forth. The justification is just different, in one you care about the made up world of player motives, the other the made up world of developer lore. So I would not liken sandbox players to those that create and "themepark" players as those that don't want to have to or unable to create their own fun, because that is just pretentious. The difference is in whether you give a crap about a player driven economy or tales of the elder gods. Indeed if you look at games like Fallout 3 it has the hallmarks of a "themepark" game being driven by the developer and all, but does let player find their own fun in the wasteland. Though people play it off as simple preference I often detect a hint of superiority coming from sandbox players but your choice of game in no way means you are more intelligence, mature or creative than those that don't, you just find clan battles and player economy interesting where as I find holiday events and story more interesting.
The difference is this: The grind has a meaningful purpose to the player himself, otherwise he would not engage in it. Also, storyline is present in sandbox games as well, and someone said earlier that a mix between both is possible, and I agree, it happened with Asheron's Call and it was the best MMORPG I've ever played.
You know I really don't see sandboxes being about freedom or creativity. So I don't think it is about some people prefer creating and others doing or some people like to think others don't or some want to create their own adventure and others don't and so forth, because that comes off as very elitest. I think it is mostly in the way you present it. In a sandbox the "adventures" you create would be considered grinding in any other circumstance, you grind for skills, grind for materials, grind guild battles for territory and so on. The difference is that you are selling to a player driven economy, fighting other players for virtual property and the like, but you are grinding. Just like in games like WoW, I don't use the term themepark because it is a stupid word design to insult people who play those games, the "adventures" you have you grind for levels, grind for money, grind for weapons, grind for mounts and so forth. The justification is just different, in one you care about the made up world of player motives, the other the made up world of developer lore. So I would not liken sandbox players to those that create and "themepark" players as those that don't want to have to or unable to create their own fun, because that is just pretentious. The difference is in whether you give a crap about a player driven economy or tales of the elder gods. Indeed if you look at games like Fallout 3 it has the hallmarks of a "themepark" game being driven by the developer and all, but does let player find their own fun in the wasteland. Though people play it off as simple preference I often detect a hint of superiority coming from sandbox players but your choice of game in no way means you are more intelligence, mature or creative than those that don't, you just find clan battles and player economy interesting where as I find holiday events and story more interesting.
The difference is this: The grind has a meaningful purpose to the player himself, otherwise he would not engage in it.
Well yeah, specifically it is what the player finds meaningful, whether you care about player driven economies or not or whether you care about lore based quests or not.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Darkfall made me go back to themepark. Yes, I gave it a chance and yes I thought it was awesome, at first, until realizing that there should be some things taken out of it because it can provide a very unfair experience to some. But as far as themeparks go (god i love magic mountain! and disneyland) a lot of them are not 100% themeparks; a lot of them you really can do a lot when you want.
You know I really don't see sandboxes being about freedom or creativity. So I don't think it is about some people prefer creating and others doing or some people like to think others don't or some want to create their own adventure and others don't and so forth, because that comes off as very elitest. I think it is mostly in the way you present it. In a sandbox the "adventures" you create would be considered grinding in any other circumstance, you grind for skills, grind for materials, grind guild battles for territory and so on. The difference is that you are selling to a player driven economy, fighting other players for virtual property and the like, but you are grinding. Just like in games like WoW, I don't use the term themepark because it is a stupid word design to insult people who play those games, the "adventures" you have you grind for levels, grind for money, grind for weapons, grind for mounts and so forth. The justification is just different, in one you care about the made up world of player motives, the other the made up world of developer lore. So I would not liken sandbox players to those that create and "themepark" players as those that don't want to have to or unable to create their own fun, because that is just pretentious. The difference is in whether you give a crap about a player driven economy or tales of the elder gods. Indeed if you look at games like Fallout 3 it has the hallmarks of a "themepark" game being driven by the developer and all, but does let player find their own fun in the wasteland. Though people play it off as simple preference I often detect a hint of superiority coming from sandbox players but your choice of game in no way means you are more intelligence, mature or creative than those that don't, you just find clan battles and player economy interesting where as I find holiday events and story more interesting.
The difference is this: The grind has a meaningful purpose to the player himself, otherwise he would not engage in it.
Well yeah, specifically it is what the player finds meaningful, whether you care about player driven economies or not or whether you care about lore based quests or not.
The problem with lore based quests though is that they tend to be designed for a singleplayer game, treating you like you're the hero and the only person doing it.
Considering that the theme park forces you down a developer designed pathways whereas the sandbox allows you to do what you want. How could anyone possibly hate the idea of doing what they want? The sandbox provides far more alternatives and it also provides a much more meaningful sense of purpose. Consider PvP in a themepark game. You have instanced battlegrounds or you can kill other players. They don't drop anything when they die. The battlegrounds have you fighting for points or kill count. This is not meaningful. Consider a sandbox game. When you PvP in a sandbox game, you're fighting for loot, or maybe for honor. Consider someone killing the wrong person. Clans might go to war. Consider a clan that controls too many resources, again you have a war, you're fighting for something, something that is more meaningful than points, something that affects the game world. It's unfortunate though that sandbox games haven't yet allowed PvE content to change the world (aside from Asheron's Call).
Nope. Wrong characterization.
Theme park like WOW provides more CONTENT while providing choices. You do NOT have to follow the quest lines but you can if you want to.
Games like UO has LESS content and you do NOT have the choice to follow quest lines.
LOL .. "meaning" is NOT something you tell other people. BG is meaningful because it can get you to honor loot. If you haven't figured it out yet, very few people like full loot drop in PvP.
This talk about war & changing the game world is meaningless if the game is not fun. The number 1 priority of a developer is to make a game fun and DIABLO has shown that pure hack-n-slash can be fun if done right.
Considering that the theme park forces you down a developer designed pathways whereas the sandbox allows you to do what you want. How could anyone possibly hate the idea of doing what they want? The sandbox provides far more alternatives and it also provides a much more meaningful sense of purpose. Consider PvP in a themepark game. You have instanced battlegrounds or you can kill other players. They don't drop anything when they die. The battlegrounds have you fighting for points or kill count. This is not meaningful. Consider a sandbox game. When you PvP in a sandbox game, you're fighting for loot, or maybe for honor. Consider someone killing the wrong person. Clans might go to war. Consider a clan that controls too many resources, again you have a war, you're fighting for something, something that is more meaningful than points, something that affects the game world. It's unfortunate though that sandbox games haven't yet allowed PvE content to change the world (aside from Asheron's Call).
Nope. Wrong characterization.
Theme park like WOW provides more CONTENT while providing choices. You do NOT have to follow the quest lines but you can if you want to.
Games like UO has LESS content and you do NOT have the choice to follow quest lines.
LOL .. "meaning" is NOT something you tell other people. BG is meaningful because it can get you to honor loot. If you haven't figured it out yet, very few people like full loot drop in PvP.
This talk about war & changing the game world is meaningless if the game is not fun. The number 1 priority of a developer is to make a game fun and DIABLO has shown that pure hack-n-slash can be fun if done right.
I think you need to play some MMORPGs other than WoW. You seem to mix up fun and having the pleasure center of your brain activated through rewards. From this moment forward you will be known as Pavlov's Doggy.
I think the sand box debate is stupid... I mean you want your character to be able to learn any skill crap... because ya thats realistic, because so many plumbers, also take up tailoring, fashion modeling and race car driving. So of course my warrior should be able to cast fireballs.
I think the sand box debate is stupid... I mean you want your character to be able to learn any skill crap... because ya thats realistic, because so many plumbers, also take up tailoring, fashion modeling and race car driving. So of course my warrior should be able to cast fireballs. Theme Park = CONTENT and Objectives Sand Box = An excuse to not have quest designers.
Not at all, sandboxes need limitations too, Darkfall went wrong with its allowing people to learn absolutely everything. Mortal Online is in the right place allowing you a certain amount of points total in all skills. I quite liked Asheron's Call's system where you bought skills with skill credit, and you would get more skill credits with leveling up. Once you had a skill, you could raise it. Also sandbox is more about designing systems that give players the freedom to create content as opposed to creating content for the players to play. Seriously mixing sandbox and themepark is the best thing that could ever happen. But when it comes down to sandbox or themepark, I think sandbox holds the torch.
Many theme park MMOs are sandbox in the way that I like it.
What you describe is absolutely no fun for the player who is ganked, not a member of a never sleeps/works guild or just trying to explore unhampered. It was fun in UO for about an hour before getting randomly ganked for loot got real old.
The sandboxes I like have PvE content and open worlds. Read open, instances of open zones is fine by me. No one complained about zoning when EQ was the only game in town. No one dropped EQ for AC2 because AC2 offered an open sandbox and a reason to advance besides spending days fighting in one corner for loot/level.
Anyway sandbox in the current definition is just not something the masses, me included, are interested in. But yes theme parks that are on rails are just as bad. Ie Aion, Guild Wars, WAR.
The problem with lore based quests though is that they tend to be designed for a singleplayer game, treating you like you're the hero and the only person doing it.
What is wrong with that though if it is good content and treats your party like you are the ones that saved the land even though it will revert back to the way it was after you complete the quest, that isn't a bad thing.
The story has depth and was fun to play through, your actions not having permanance are a casualty of playing an MMO, where you couldn't make changes to the games world in any meaningful way anyway. And by meanigful I mean in a way that fundamentally alters the game lore like killing someone destroying a city and so forth, ie changes that would ruin the game for other people.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Originally posted by Solude Many theme park MMOs are sandbox in the way that I like it. What you describe is absolutely no fun for the player who is ganked, not a member of a never sleeps/works guild or just trying to explore unhampered. It was fun in UO for about an hour before getting randomly ganked for loot got real old.
What you say is quite true for most modern MMORPGs. The issue with them is that the outcome of combat is heavily influenced by the player's class, level, and equipment. These are factors that the player has no control over at the time of the fight. A game with more involving combat that allowed the player to change the outcome of a fight through their actions rather than their characters would be more fair for people who had jobs and slept at some point each day. Take Asheron's Call for example! The ability to move out of the way of incoming spells. it made it so a level 40 could kill a level 100 who played 24/7 every day leveling up and getting awesome equipment.
The sandboxes I like have PvE content and open worlds. Read open, instances of open zones is fine by me. No one complained about zoning when EQ was the only game in town. No one dropped EQ for AC2 because AC2 offered an open sandbox and a reason to advance besides spending days fighting in one corner for loot/level. Anyway sandbox in the current definition is just not something the masses, me included, are interested in. But yes theme parks that are on rails are just as bad. Ie Aion, Guild Wars, WAR.
Let's just pretend Asheron's Call 2 never existed.
These so called Sandbox just games suck. Thats why all of them have low subs simply because they are not fun. I have said time and time again that until we get a High Quality & Fun sandbox game then Themeparks will always be better. There is not a game on the market where you can go anywhere and do anything. Thats why I dont even consider games like Eve, Ryzom, Darkfall and Fallen Earth to be Sandbox games. One day we may get a real Sandbox game but right now we dont have it and the so called sandbox games that we have now are not even close.
What I dont understand is why dont the people who say they like sandbox games play them? They try the games and they too see how shallow and bland the games are and then come to a forum and bitch because people are not playing the games that they dont even like them selves. You dont hear Aion, Lord Of The Rings or WoW players complaining because they are having fun and enjoying what they play. LMAO
These so called Sandbox just games suck. Thats why all of them have low subs simply because they are not fun. I have said time and time again that until we get a High Quality & Fun sandbox game then Themeparks will always be better. There is not a game on the market where you can go anywhere and do anything. Thats why I dont even consider games like Eve, Ryzom, Darkfall and Fallen Earth to be Sandbox games. One day we may get a real Sandbox game but right now we dont have it and the so called sandbox games that we have now are not even close. What I dont understand is why dont the people who say they like sandbox games play them? They try the games and they too see how shallow and bland the games are and then come to a forum and bitch because people are not playing the games that they dont even like them selves. You dont hear Aion, Lord Of The Rings or WoW players complaining because they are having fun and enjoying what they play. LMAO
It's funny because Aion and WoW players aren't actually having fun grinding away for epics. It's unfortunate that you and most of the people who play those games are too deluded, ignorant, unexperienced, and ignorant of human psychology to see this.
These so called Sandbox just games suck. Thats why all of them have low subs simply because they are not fun. I have said time and time again that until we get a High Quality & Fun sandbox game then Themeparks will always be better. There is not a game on the market where you can go anywhere and do anything. Thats why I dont even consider games like Eve, Ryzom, Darkfall and Fallen Earth to be Sandbox games. One day we may get a real Sandbox game but right now we dont have it and the so called sandbox games that we have now are not even close. What I dont understand is why dont the people who say they like sandbox games play them? They try the games and they too see how shallow and bland the games are and then come to a forum and bitch because people are not playing the games that they dont even like them selves. You dont hear Aion, Lord Of The Rings or WoW players complaining because they are having fun and enjoying what they play. LMAO
It's funny because Aion and WoW players aren't actually having fun grinding away for epics.
Yeah, the 15 mil+ combined subscribers actually hate the game and are forced to pay for it!
I think the sand box debate is stupid... I mean you want your character to be able to learn any skill crap... because ya thats realistic, because so many plumbers, also take up tailoring, fashion modeling and race car driving. So of course my warrior should be able to cast fireballs.
The absurdity of attacking the realism of a game mechanic and then supporting it with ANY example involving fireballs is both humorous and astonishing.
Your plumber probably knows more than just plumbing, btw. Ask him next time he's over since you obviously can't do plumbing since that isn't your carved in stone vocation. WTF is going on in Kansas City, MMO that a 33-year old feels people are born into a profession and never learn anything outside it? I'm thinking maybe Red Dawn did happen, but just a bit further east.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
These so called Sandbox just games suck. Thats why all of them have low subs simply because they are not fun. I have said time and time again that until we get a High Quality & Fun sandbox game then Themeparks will always be better. There is not a game on the market where you can go anywhere and do anything. Thats why I dont even consider games like Eve, Ryzom, Darkfall and Fallen Earth to be Sandbox games. One day we may get a real Sandbox game but right now we dont have it and the so called sandbox games that we have now are not even close. What I dont understand is why dont the people who say they like sandbox games play them? They try the games and they too see how shallow and bland the games are and then come to a forum and bitch because people are not playing the games that they dont even like them selves. You dont hear Aion, Lord Of The Rings or WoW players complaining because they are having fun and enjoying what they play. LMAO
It's funny because Aion and WoW players aren't actually having fun grinding away for epics. It's unfortunate that you and most of the people who play those games are too deluded, ignorant, unexperienced, and ignorant of human psychology to see this.
Do a study and then see if what you said is valid. You're generalizing the audience. Grind is in -every- MMO, even sandbox (because if you want to make your skill better you have to grind it out).
These so called Sandbox just games suck. Thats why all of them have low subs simply because they are not fun. I have said time and time again that until we get a High Quality & Fun sandbox game then Themeparks will always be better. There is not a game on the market where you can go anywhere and do anything. Thats why I dont even consider games like Eve, Ryzom, Darkfall and Fallen Earth to be Sandbox games. One day we may get a real Sandbox game but right now we dont have it and the so called sandbox games that we have now are not even close. What I dont understand is why dont the people who say they like sandbox games play them? They try the games and they too see how shallow and bland the games are and then come to a forum and bitch because people are not playing the games that they dont even like them selves. You dont hear Aion, Lord Of The Rings or WoW players complaining because they are having fun and enjoying what they play. LMAO
It's funny because Aion and WoW players aren't actually having fun grinding away for epics.
Yeah, the 15 mil+ combined subscribers actually hate the game and are forced to pay for it!
hahahahahahahahah darkfall fans are so stupid.
You seem to have cut out a portion of my post. I never said they actually hate the game and are forced to pay for it. I said none of them enjoy the grind. They are frustrated and annoyed more often than they aren't. I recall some idiot multiboxing on WoW live streaming it, he seemed pretty pissed off the whole time, and then he killed something and it had some item he wanted or needed, sounded like he had just gotten his heroin fix. It is exploitation, and anyone who has played MMORPGs for a long period of time will easily see this. Think about it. Before WoW the most subscribers was something like 1 million in Everquest. You have 14 million people who are completely vulnerable and know nothing about the genre. It's easy to exploit naive people. Just look at every scam ever created.
These so called Sandbox just games suck. Thats why all of them have low subs simply because they are not fun. I have said time and time again that until we get a High Quality & Fun sandbox game then Themeparks will always be better. There is not a game on the market where you can go anywhere and do anything. Thats why I dont even consider games like Eve, Ryzom, Darkfall and Fallen Earth to be Sandbox games. One day we may get a real Sandbox game but right now we dont have it and the so called sandbox games that we have now are not even close. What I dont understand is why dont the people who say they like sandbox games play them? They try the games and they too see how shallow and bland the games are and then come to a forum and bitch because people are not playing the games that they dont even like them selves. You dont hear Aion, Lord Of The Rings or WoW players complaining because they are having fun and enjoying what they play. LMAO
It's funny because Aion and WoW players aren't actually having fun grinding away for epics. It's unfortunate that you and most of the people who play those games are too deluded, ignorant, unexperienced, and ignorant of human psychology to see this.
Do a study and then see if what you said is valid. You're generalizing the audience. Grind is in -every- MMO, even sandbox (because if you want to make your skill better you have to grind it out).
I would love to, but I'm not going to major in psychology just to study MMORPG players.
Considering that the theme park forces you down a developer designed pathways whereas the sandbox allows you to do what you want. How could anyone possibly hate the idea of doing what they want? The sandbox provides far more alternatives and it also provides a much more meaningful sense of purpose. Consider PvP in a themepark game. You have instanced battlegrounds or you can kill other players. They don't drop anything when they die. The battlegrounds have you fighting for points or kill count. This is not meaningful. Consider a sandbox game. When you PvP in a sandbox game, you're fighting for loot, or maybe for honor. Consider someone killing the wrong person. Clans might go to war. Consider a clan that controls too many resources, again you have a war, you're fighting for something, something that is more meaningful than points, something that affects the game world. It's unfortunate though that sandbox games haven't yet allowed PvE content to change the world (aside from Asheron's Call).
There is no such game on this planet ,that "allows you to do what you want".Most games in the MMORPG genre that do have some linear game play also have some form of open ended feeling in different areas.
Aion is actually a VERY linear game,WOW not so much but every game has some form of linearity,you are never going to see it any different.
Example FFXI right out of the starting city allows you to go anywhere[almost],but it has limits,some areas must be unlocked.This is how developers make use of content,they utilize the content to unlock other content in the game.I think the more open a game becomes,it is VERY likely there is less content in the game,so it is not really a good thing at all.
The BEST option is to have some linearity but keep it closer to end game,keep the beginning of the game less linear.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
These so called Sandbox just games suck. Thats why all of them have low subs simply because they are not fun. I have said time and time again that until we get a High Quality & Fun sandbox game then Themeparks will always be better. There is not a game on the market where you can go anywhere and do anything. Thats why I dont even consider games like Eve, Ryzom, Darkfall and Fallen Earth to be Sandbox games. One day we may get a real Sandbox game but right now we dont have it and the so called sandbox games that we have now are not even close. What I dont understand is why dont the people who say they like sandbox games play them? They try the games and they too see how shallow and bland the games are and then come to a forum and bitch because people are not playing the games that they dont even like them selves. You dont hear Aion, Lord Of The Rings or WoW players complaining because they are having fun and enjoying what they play. LMAO
It's funny because Aion and WoW players aren't actually having fun grinding away for epics. It's unfortunate that you and most of the people who play those games are too deluded, ignorant, unexperienced, and ignorant of human psychology to see this.
Where in my post did I say anything about grinding for epics? The people that play these games enjoy EVERYTHING that these games have to offer. Maybe thats all you saw but dont try to speak for everybody because you cant. Bottom line is that if these people are not going to play a game that they do not enjoy so they are having fun.
These so called Sandbox just games suck. Thats why all of them have low subs simply because they are not fun. I have said time and time again that until we get a High Quality & Fun sandbox game then Themeparks will always be better. There is not a game on the market where you can go anywhere and do anything. Thats why I dont even consider games like Eve, Ryzom, Darkfall and Fallen Earth to be Sandbox games. One day we may get a real Sandbox game but right now we dont have it and the so called sandbox games that we have now are not even close. What I dont understand is why dont the people who say they like sandbox games play them? They try the games and they too see how shallow and bland the games are and then come to a forum and bitch because people are not playing the games that they dont even like them selves. You dont hear Aion, Lord Of The Rings or WoW players complaining because they are having fun and enjoying what they play. LMAO
It's funny because Aion and WoW players aren't actually having fun grinding away for epics. It's unfortunate that you and most of the people who play those games are too deluded, ignorant, unexperienced, and ignorant of human psychology to see this.
Where in my post did I say anything about grinding for epics? The people that play these games enjoy EVERYTHING that these games have to offer. Maybe thats all you saw but dont try to speak for everybody because you cant. Bottom line is that if these people are not going to play a game that they do not enjoy so they are having fun.
It's pretty clear that you're an idiot. My favorite part about WoW was repeatedly doing an instance and not getting anything until I had done it over 50 times. Or the part where every quest from the start involved killing 5 of some random monster. It was compelling and interesting and completely immersive. I wish more games would aspire to be like this because it is truly the peak of innovative entertainment.
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The difference is this: The grind has a meaningful purpose to the player himself, otherwise he would not engage in it. Also, storyline is present in sandbox games as well, and someone said earlier that a mix between both is possible, and I agree, it happened with Asheron's Call and it was the best MMORPG I've ever played.
The difference is this: The grind has a meaningful purpose to the player himself, otherwise he would not engage in it.
Well yeah, specifically it is what the player finds meaningful, whether you care about player driven economies or not or whether you care about lore based quests or not.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Darkfall made me go back to themepark. Yes, I gave it a chance and yes I thought it was awesome, at first, until realizing that there should be some things taken out of it because it can provide a very unfair experience to some. But as far as themeparks go (god i love magic mountain! and disneyland) a lot of them are not 100% themeparks; a lot of them you really can do a lot when you want.
Sandpark in a MMORPG means a giant empty world with nothing in it, and most of the game features don't work.
The difference is this: The grind has a meaningful purpose to the player himself, otherwise he would not engage in it.
Well yeah, specifically it is what the player finds meaningful, whether you care about player driven economies or not or whether you care about lore based quests or not.
The problem with lore based quests though is that they tend to be designed for a singleplayer game, treating you like you're the hero and the only person doing it.
Nope. Wrong characterization.
Theme park like WOW provides more CONTENT while providing choices. You do NOT have to follow the quest lines but you can if you want to.
Games like UO has LESS content and you do NOT have the choice to follow quest lines.
LOL .. "meaning" is NOT something you tell other people. BG is meaningful because it can get you to honor loot. If you haven't figured it out yet, very few people like full loot drop in PvP.
This talk about war & changing the game world is meaningless if the game is not fun. The number 1 priority of a developer is to make a game fun and DIABLO has shown that pure hack-n-slash can be fun if done right.
That's only Darkfall.
Really though I blame MMORPGs releasing too early, a lot of themepark MMORPGs have the issue of releasing empty as well.
Nope. Wrong characterization.
Theme park like WOW provides more CONTENT while providing choices. You do NOT have to follow the quest lines but you can if you want to.
Games like UO has LESS content and you do NOT have the choice to follow quest lines.
LOL .. "meaning" is NOT something you tell other people. BG is meaningful because it can get you to honor loot. If you haven't figured it out yet, very few people like full loot drop in PvP.
This talk about war & changing the game world is meaningless if the game is not fun. The number 1 priority of a developer is to make a game fun and DIABLO has shown that pure hack-n-slash can be fun if done right.
I think you need to play some MMORPGs other than WoW. You seem to mix up fun and having the pleasure center of your brain activated through rewards. From this moment forward you will be known as Pavlov's Doggy.
I think the sand box debate is stupid... I mean you want your character to be able to learn any skill crap... because ya thats realistic, because so many plumbers, also take up tailoring, fashion modeling and race car driving. So of course my warrior should be able to cast fireballs.
Theme Park = CONTENT and Objectives
Sand Box = An excuse to not have quest designers.
Help support an artist and gamer who has lost his tools to create and play: http://www.gofundme.com/u63nzcgk
Not at all, sandboxes need limitations too, Darkfall went wrong with its allowing people to learn absolutely everything. Mortal Online is in the right place allowing you a certain amount of points total in all skills. I quite liked Asheron's Call's system where you bought skills with skill credit, and you would get more skill credits with leveling up. Once you had a skill, you could raise it. Also sandbox is more about designing systems that give players the freedom to create content as opposed to creating content for the players to play. Seriously mixing sandbox and themepark is the best thing that could ever happen. But when it comes down to sandbox or themepark, I think sandbox holds the torch.
Many theme park MMOs are sandbox in the way that I like it.
What you describe is absolutely no fun for the player who is ganked, not a member of a never sleeps/works guild or just trying to explore unhampered. It was fun in UO for about an hour before getting randomly ganked for loot got real old.
The sandboxes I like have PvE content and open worlds. Read open, instances of open zones is fine by me. No one complained about zoning when EQ was the only game in town. No one dropped EQ for AC2 because AC2 offered an open sandbox and a reason to advance besides spending days fighting in one corner for loot/level.
Anyway sandbox in the current definition is just not something the masses, me included, are interested in. But yes theme parks that are on rails are just as bad. Ie Aion, Guild Wars, WAR.
What is wrong with that though if it is good content and treats your party like you are the ones that saved the land even though it will revert back to the way it was after you complete the quest, that isn't a bad thing.
The story has depth and was fun to play through, your actions not having permanance are a casualty of playing an MMO, where you couldn't make changes to the games world in any meaningful way anyway. And by meanigful I mean in a way that fundamentally alters the game lore like killing someone destroying a city and so forth, ie changes that would ruin the game for other people.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
That's only Darkfall.
Really though I blame MMORPGs releasing too early, a lot of themepark MMORPGs have the issue of releasing empty as well.
Every sandbox MMO I've ever tried has been like that, now I avoid them like the plague.
These so called Sandbox just games suck. Thats why all of them have low subs simply because they are not fun. I have said time and time again that until we get a High Quality & Fun sandbox game then Themeparks will always be better. There is not a game on the market where you can go anywhere and do anything. Thats why I dont even consider games like Eve, Ryzom, Darkfall and Fallen Earth to be Sandbox games. One day we may get a real Sandbox game but right now we dont have it and the so called sandbox games that we have now are not even close.
What I dont understand is why dont the people who say they like sandbox games play them? They try the games and they too see how shallow and bland the games are and then come to a forum and bitch because people are not playing the games that they dont even like them selves. You dont hear Aion, Lord Of The Rings or WoW players complaining because they are having fun and enjoying what they play. LMAO
It's funny because Aion and WoW players aren't actually having fun grinding away for epics. It's unfortunate that you and most of the people who play those games are too deluded, ignorant, unexperienced, and ignorant of human psychology to see this.
It's funny because Aion and WoW players aren't actually having fun grinding away for epics.
Yeah, the 15 mil+ combined subscribers actually hate the game and are forced to pay for it!
hahahahahahahahah darkfall fans are so stupid.
The absurdity of attacking the realism of a game mechanic and then supporting it with ANY example involving fireballs is both humorous and astonishing.
Your plumber probably knows more than just plumbing, btw. Ask him next time he's over since you obviously can't do plumbing since that isn't your carved in stone vocation. WTF is going on in Kansas City, MMO that a 33-year old feels people are born into a profession and never learn anything outside it? I'm thinking maybe Red Dawn did happen, but just a bit further east.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
It's funny because Aion and WoW players aren't actually having fun grinding away for epics. It's unfortunate that you and most of the people who play those games are too deluded, ignorant, unexperienced, and ignorant of human psychology to see this.
Do a study and then see if what you said is valid. You're generalizing the audience. Grind is in -every- MMO, even sandbox (because if you want to make your skill better you have to grind it out).
It's funny because Aion and WoW players aren't actually having fun grinding away for epics.
Yeah, the 15 mil+ combined subscribers actually hate the game and are forced to pay for it!
hahahahahahahahah darkfall fans are so stupid.
You seem to have cut out a portion of my post. I never said they actually hate the game and are forced to pay for it. I said none of them enjoy the grind. They are frustrated and annoyed more often than they aren't. I recall some idiot multiboxing on WoW live streaming it, he seemed pretty pissed off the whole time, and then he killed something and it had some item he wanted or needed, sounded like he had just gotten his heroin fix. It is exploitation, and anyone who has played MMORPGs for a long period of time will easily see this. Think about it. Before WoW the most subscribers was something like 1 million in Everquest. You have 14 million people who are completely vulnerable and know nothing about the genre. It's easy to exploit naive people. Just look at every scam ever created.
It's funny because Aion and WoW players aren't actually having fun grinding away for epics. It's unfortunate that you and most of the people who play those games are too deluded, ignorant, unexperienced, and ignorant of human psychology to see this.
Do a study and then see if what you said is valid. You're generalizing the audience. Grind is in -every- MMO, even sandbox (because if you want to make your skill better you have to grind it out).
I would love to, but I'm not going to major in psychology just to study MMORPG players.
There is no such game on this planet ,that "allows you to do what you want".Most games in the MMORPG genre that do have some linear game play also have some form of open ended feeling in different areas.
Aion is actually a VERY linear game,WOW not so much but every game has some form of linearity,you are never going to see it any different.
Example FFXI right out of the starting city allows you to go anywhere[almost],but it has limits,some areas must be unlocked.This is how developers make use of content,they utilize the content to unlock other content in the game.I think the more open a game becomes,it is VERY likely there is less content in the game,so it is not really a good thing at all.
The BEST option is to have some linearity but keep it closer to end game,keep the beginning of the game less linear.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
It's funny because Aion and WoW players aren't actually having fun grinding away for epics. It's unfortunate that you and most of the people who play those games are too deluded, ignorant, unexperienced, and ignorant of human psychology to see this.
Where in my post did I say anything about grinding for epics? The people that play these games enjoy EVERYTHING that these games have to offer. Maybe thats all you saw but dont try to speak for everybody because you cant. Bottom line is that if these people are not going to play a game that they do not enjoy so they are having fun.
It's funny because Aion and WoW players aren't actually having fun grinding away for epics. It's unfortunate that you and most of the people who play those games are too deluded, ignorant, unexperienced, and ignorant of human psychology to see this.
Where in my post did I say anything about grinding for epics? The people that play these games enjoy EVERYTHING that these games have to offer. Maybe thats all you saw but dont try to speak for everybody because you cant. Bottom line is that if these people are not going to play a game that they do not enjoy so they are having fun.
It's pretty clear that you're an idiot. My favorite part about WoW was repeatedly doing an instance and not getting anything until I had done it over 50 times. Or the part where every quest from the start involved killing 5 of some random monster. It was compelling and interesting and completely immersive. I wish more games would aspire to be like this because it is truly the peak of innovative entertainment.