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Lack of content does not equal Sandbox
Vaedur
Member Posts: 430
This game is not sandbox... not at all. . just because there is nothing to really do for groups does NOT mean it's sandbox.. it has a CLEAR progression through 3 zones.. it's as sandbox as any other game out there.....
I still really really wish they didn't screw this one up... it could have been the greatest mmo on the market.. oh so so so easy, no insenative to do anything.. instead we got a niche game that a few people are spouting as the greatest of all time, but alas, read the Fallen earth forums, and see those people are starting to come around, people talking about not seeing others as much, etc..
I really hope the Earthrise developers are looking closely at the mistakes of FE
anywho got off topic.. but this game really isn't sandbox, i have no idea why people say it is.
Comments
People say it's sandbox because:
there are no character classes and you can build any type of character you like.
You can pick a faction and then you can change factions within the game. You're not pigeonholed into anything
You can make everything in the game out of stuff you find in the game.
You're not forced into a progression path. You can do anything in any order you like. You can do stuff as a group at level 5 or in a smaller group at level 10 or solo at 15 or you can just craft until you're level 20 or whatever. You can go to any town you want, or you can not go to a town at all and level by harvesting. You can go to any sector anytime you want (well, within limits). You can go to sector 2 at level 13 (see post a few down from this) or level 20 or 25 and have a great (and different) experience.
Yeah, the fact is, eventually you have to go from sector 1 to sector 2 to sector 3. Although not really, I guess if you wanted, you could stay in sector 1 the whole time and just craft by buying books and components from the AH. But more or less, yes you have to progress. But i don't think that necessarily precludes it from being sandbox.
Anyway that is WHY people say call it sandbox.
Also, your title is a bit off. Because while "lack of content" may not equal "sandbox", having 5500 quests definitely doesn't equal "lack of content". So maybe if it said "having 5500 quests does not equal sandbox", it would make a bit more sense.
But maybe we're talking about different things. Why don't we try this experiment:
Without any references to Fallen Earth or any other specific game, define what YOU mean by "sandbox game" and list the criteria a game has to meet to be considered one - in your opinion only.
Post that and then maybe I'll agree with you 100% about FE not being "sandbox".
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
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Sandbox....themepark......blah blah blah. There seem to be an endless number of threads talking about this with every game that comes out. It would seem that as time goes by more and more people are seeking more freedom in their online games.......and as a result each year there are droves of unsatisfied gamers flocking to the forums.
This desperation that some people have for a "true sandbox game" does seem to cause people to apply the sandbox label to pretty much any game that isnt totally linear though. Show people the slightest whiff of freedom such as a big empty landscape where you can see long distances or a large selection of predefined items to craft with the magic "create" button and you will see them cry "sandbox!". Fallen Earth seems to have had this effect on a lot of people even though its just the same as any other standard mmo. Basicly the devs have managed to provide a sandbox "feeling" without actually having to provide any game mechanics that would be expected in a so-called "true sandbox"......but then what is a "true sandbox game"? Second Life in a structured game world perhaps?
So no Fallen Earth is no more a sandbox game than any of the other mmos we have been seeing for years. It has a static gameworld which the players can do nothing to change or influence, although it does have a limited degree of freedom where players can swap ownership of faction towns I suppose and they are free to wander around and do quests in whatever order they like (to a certain degree). Either way it doesnt matter. Its a game which is keeping a number of people occupied and entertained and thats all that matters. I initially quite liked the game but I quickly got bored of running around a big static gameworld dotted with mobs, harvest nodes and text files.......but thats just me. Other people enjoy the game for exactly that reason and the "feeling" it gives them which is fair enough. Its certainly not a bad game which is what the OP seems to be implying. It does at least offer a little bit more freedom from many other mmos so I guess its a step in the right direction.......even if its only a tiny little step. Icarus seem to be a pretty good company too.
This game in a whole is a hybrid. The devs themselves have said it was a Sandbox/Theme Park game. Granted its more theme park than sandbox but all I think this game has taken 1st place in my favorite MMO which was FFXI.
The things that make this game sandboxy are: there are no classes and the game is skill based as you get to pick how your character progresses. You can craft 95% of the items in game, Eventually there will be player housing.
Yes there is standard progression as in s1 s2 s3 but pretty much every game is like that. Once you outgrow an area you move to the next which has harder things to kill.
Sorry you didn't enjoy the game. But I like the game and Im happy its niche because I like things that don't have a million bagillion people that like it.
Actually by the truest definition of a sandbox in the context of an MMORPG would mean the game would ship with no developed "content" at all. All the "content" in a true sandbox MMORPG would be made by the people playing in the sandbox with just the sand.
And yes, I too am tired of people arguing about these asinine buzzwords and semantics...
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"Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
Member Since March 2004
Sorry FE doesnt fit your opinion of what a sandbox is, i never knew they were even attempting that, for them to fail at it so much.
Get a group up and go roam the pvp areas in s2, hows that for a sandbox group quest? that is if the couple of group quests per town in s1 isnt enough.
According to your sig, you played SWG. How can you say FE lacks content when you've obviously played SWG? FE has a solid amount of quests and has hundreds of items to craft. By your definition, games that HAVE group content are sandbox? How is that? Thankfully FE does have group content -- apparently you never found it. Sorry to hear that.
Yes, Earthrise. Oh wait, Global Agenda...I can't wait to hear the SAME EXACT complaints from posters JUST like you how these games were a mistake and that they 'really wish the devs hadn't screwed this one up.'
It's getting really freakin' funny actually to see the same posts by these sorts of people who earnestly believes they're original and that people care about their trolling.
_____________________________
Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO
Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Find the Truth: http://www.factcheck.org/
Here we go again, another thread about what a sandbox should be defined as.
We get it Vaedur, you dont like FE. You said your piece and now you can move on.
Its as I have said many times before;
Everyone 'thinks' they know what makes a sandbox game, and everyone 'claims' to want a sandbox game. But when they are given a game that meets the vague requirements to 'be' a sandbox, those same people complain that it doesnt have the features that would make it a fun game. And sadly the features those people complain about the game not having are the same features they rag on themepark MMOs for having...
Take the OPs post for example.
"Lack of content"
Fallen Earth has a TON of content, problem is its not the type of 'content' hes used to. In a true sandbox there is hardly any defined content as most of it is left to the players to create. In FE, on the other hand, there is content everywhere, most on par with themepark MMOs. Thing is, unlike most themepark MMOs, FE doesnt tell you where and how to find this stuff. The game was created as a 'Hybrid' MMO, featuring parts of both types of games. The devs have said this many times. If you cant find the content you are either not looking for it (because its there) or you're the type of player that needs to be shown where it is. If thats the case you might want to try a game that will lead you by the nose from point to point.
But as someone else said in this thread,
Post what you feel is required to make a game 'Sandbox' without using other games as an example.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Not to speak ill of the unreleased , but earthrise has that themepark flavor by everything I've seen of it so far. Your waiting on that and your waiting on a slow train that don't show. Anyway why do you care? If FE wasn't for you then go back to something you like playing and never look at it again? I didn't like Aion, but I never post there, I just moved on.
Come on in, the sand is warm.
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
Having played at least the 15 day free trial I will say this. The game is way more sandbox then any title I have played in a long time. Ya, if you want to go from level 1-40 you do have to progress in a theme park manner, however the game devs have clearly stated the game is a hybrid. You have the option of going 1-40 through progression, or wander around and just harvest, craft, and complete all the missions in the many different starter towns they had.
I spent my entire 15 day trial going the sandbox route and literally just farmed materials to craft and went from town to town doing low level quests for the extra AP. I had not intention on subscribing due to many memory leaks I was personally having, however I found the game very enjoyable doing just what I was doing. I'm sorry to the OP if you want to be able to run around and hit a telephone pole, or dig a hole and do whatever, because frankly I have no idea what your definition of a sandbox game really is.
For an unknown company to do what they did with FE, I tip my hate to them. They have a dedicated player base, great plans for future additions that are right around the corner, and a dev team working hard to improve a good game to make it better.
Hopefully once they clear up the leaks, I can actually sub and enjoy the game with the rest of the dedicated community.
S.C.I.F.I
<Sights, Clouded, In, False, Illusions>
While the game may seem like a sandbox MMO at fist glance, it definately is not.
Character progression, while not defined by classes but rather by investing attribute points into skill and stat lines, is still very linear. To level up you pretty much have to follow the quest treadmill, as only crafting or grinding mobs will take significantly longer. In addition to the leveling system, 20-25% of the total attribute points are rewarded as "bonus" quest rewards for specific quests, meaning if you want to maximize your characters you have to run down a checklist of quests taking you through hoops across the zone, with a considerable portion of these quests requiring you to metagame via faction hopping.
The classlessness of it is also really somewhat of a tease, since it's not nearly as in-depth as it first seems. To be blunt, it really just boils down to picking one of the three combat lines, and a small variation of a few core skill lines and stats in order to be effective in the PvE quest treadmill, and especially for PvP if that's your thing. So it is more of a "classless" class based system, since most builds just outright don't work effectively.
And then there's the crafting... usually sandbox MMOs have very strong crafting and a strong ingame economy. FE has neither. Sure 95% of the in-game items are crafted, but anyone who invests enough points to craft, can literally craft anything. There's no need to specialize what you craft, which also means there's no real need to even interact with another crafter, or player for that matter if you have your own decently leveled crafter character. Furthermore the crafting system itself is extremely bland, with items having no variation aside from the base recipe -- aside from a few experimental recipies that are just random luck. SO really, the crafting is really very lackluter compared to predecessors. SWG's pre-cu crafting puts FE to shame.
I could go on, but back to the point... FE is pretty much just the same old quest treadmill as most other MMOs on the market right now, trying to pretend to be more.
Are we gonna go through yet another "It's sandbox because I say so, no it's not because i say so. yes it is because I said so " thread?
All right.
Listen carefully here, important announcement follows.
FALLEN EARTH IS A SANDBOX, BECAUSE I SAY SO!
k?
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
To the part in red (couldn't care less about the neverending terminology debate): you obviously don't know FE.
Above crafting skills 105-120, you have absolutely NO chance of doing more than 2 or 3 lines in crafting. You need so many and so varied mats (with some materials needed in 2 or more branches of crafting), that there is no way in keeping up with scavenging or buying from vendors. I started doing most arts in crafting, except for nature and mutagenics. After about level 10 I had to stop first aid and cooking. After about 20 I basically abandoned weapons. I am 27 now, and currently I'm only leveling Science (although I am stuck at researching the advanced dune buggies due to sheer need of an insane amount of mats), I'm trying my best to keep up Armorcraft and Ballistics. Even at this level, I have NO chance of doing any other of the arts in crafting.
So no, you are wrong. People NEED to specialize in crafting, even at mid levels - I assume I will be very happy to keep 2 branched parallelly up when i'm 40+.
The only exception would be 24/7 crafting bots, supplied by whole guilds, but that's an intended extreme example.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
I don't want to jump again on you, but my main crafter has all tradeskills (except mutagenics) above 140.
REALITY CHECK
Oh, and this one is sweet too.
You cannot hop factions, as once you start doing quests for one faction, your rep with the opposite faction will decrease TWICE as quickly as the increase with your current one.
Seriously, you clearly know absolutely NOTHING about this game, besides what you have read on these boards, therefore your opinion is - sadly - utterly worthless, and is to be ignored fully.
Bye
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
People say it's sandbox because:
there are no character classes and you can build any type of character you like.
You can pick a faction and then you can change factions within the game. You're not pigeonholed into anything
You're not forced into a progression path. You can do anything in any order you like. You can do stuff as a group at level 5 or in a smaller group at level 10 or solo at 15 or you can just craft until you're level 20 or whatever. You can go to any town you want, or you can not go to a town at all and level by harvesting. You can go to any sector anytime you want (well, within limits). You can go to sector 2 at level 13 (see post a few down from this) or level 20 or 25 and have a great (and different) experience.
I am sorry. Unless you have no interest in PVP (wich you better hope you do, as the whole focus of the game leans towards PVP, including future updates (unfortunately)), then you are pretty much forced to go for cookie cutter builds. Or you'll be steamrolled in PVP for sure.
The fact, that there isn't a hardcap on AP is another flaw, wich pretty much forces you to stay way too long in Sector 1 doing all the bonus AP missions you can, or again... you will be steamrolled in PVP by the ones that did.
Eventho I like the PVE aspect a lot more in Fallen Earth, the reality is that at the 45 cap you either reroll or you end up PVP'ing.
And seeing the devs focus on future updates. It ain't going to change.
Cheers
REALITY CHECK
Seriously DB, you should stop posting in FE section here. You really are a fanboy.
There are patterns that you can follow in order to get all AP's from all factions. You need to grind rep with 2-3 factions first. Then you start grinding mobs to change the factions. Everytime you switch faction it gets harder because the decrease is twice as fast as increase, however it is possible and some maximizers do that.
His points are absolutely valid.
REALITY CHECK
Oh, and this one is sweet too.
You cannot hop factions, as once you start doing quests for one faction, your rep with the opposite faction will decrease TWICE as quickly as the increase with your current one.
Seriously, you clearly know absolutely NOTHING about this game, besides what you have read on these boards, therefore your opinion is - sadly - utterly worthless, and is to be ignored fully.
Bye
DB
LMAO!
One of the biggest complains on the official forums (next to the pointless PVP) is the whole faction system and how people are working the faction wheel!
People have been hopping factions since beta and people are hopping factions aka working the faction wheel today!
Sure you cannot max out all factions (too insane grind for even the most hardcore gamers), but you can work the wheel enough to get all the important rewards (mutation skill books and bonus AP).
So I think it's rather you that knows absolutely NOTHING about this game.
Cheers
This has a ring of truth to me. I think the Post Apocalypse scenario is begging for a "true(r) sandbox" type of gameplay, and a lot of people are just very disappointed that Fallen Earth strayed so far. That's not saying Fallen Earth isn't a good game, its just not the game alot of people want from this genre/setting.
Earthrise has potential, but from what I read about it... a-lot of the things it does right, Fallen Earth does wrong... and a lot of the things Fallen Earth does right... Earthrise does wrong. Of course that's just speculation on what I've read.. plus the combat system looks like trash(although I hear they recently rebuilt it from the ground up).
Combine Eve's economy and PvP, SWG town building and professions, Fallen Earth's crafting, seamless world, vehicles, armor/weapon system, and factions (w a better PvP implementation)... make it a pure skill based system, spread the mob difficulty level out in a way that isn't linear (ie low, mid, high level hunting areas are all relatively near eachother).... and throw in a polished fps type of combat. Now wrap it up all in a cut-throat apocalyptic type setting where clans fight for valuable resources and town lots... Damn now that's a game I want to play.
Wowzers, you might want to pull your head from your ass before you start knocking others for knowing nothing about the game. Faction Wheel Spinning is common knowledge; there are entire guides dedicated to it.
Aren't you the one constantly questioning whether other people have actually played the game? Have you?
Kinda stuck your foot in your mouth with this statement.
Faction Wheel spinning is actually a common practice and very easily manageable.
I have to admit, and I didn't expect to say this about you, but I'm questioning whether you play the game myself. Anyone who has played for any substantial length of time knows about wheel spinning and the benefits of it, as well as how to do it.
There is no shortage of documentation or open conversation on the subject at all, in fact it is easily one of the most discussed topics currently under debate (second only to mutation discussions/rants). Either way, your credibility regarding Fallen Earth information took a serious hit, as it seems you yourself are not very well informed.
The faction changing is only in Sector 2 and only until you get all the APs and mutations you want, if that's the way you wanna play the game.
This is done in a course of few game sessions and you are back at fighting for your faction oh choice from then on.
Switching faction in Sector 3 is possible in theory but you would have to be an idiot to even attempt it.
By the time you hit S3 you'll probably be -200k-300K in negative with your enemy faction and half that with their allies while a faction mob kill gives you between 9-59 faction points depending on the level of the mob.
Good luck grinding that multiple times in S3.
So the "faction hopping" is basically a weekend of gaming and only a choice, nothing mandatory in order to have a kickazz char, same with bonus APs, while it's normal to have a char with 1100 APs by level 45 I know players that have ~900 APs and are still kicking azz and taking names, left and right
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
Most of the bonus AP missions are in S1 and S2. You can get enough from those 2 sectors. Plus all mutation skill books you get from the factions in S2.
So for that alone, faction hopping in Sector 3 is not needed anymore, as you will have acquired at least 200 bonus AP already, plus all the mutation skills you wanted.
So the only reason left to even grind one faction, is if you are interested in the CAP stone (wich you get at 160k already) or the Faction Armor (wich isn't all that better then crafted armor sets.)
So most people aren't even gonna bother grinding their brains out to get 360k faction for the gear.
Cheers