What exactly is "grind"? I've heard the term tossed around a lot.
In simplest terms, "grind" is a repetitive action that you do not enjoy, but are forced to do in order to progress your character at a reasonable pace.
For some, it's killing lots of mobs for XP to level up; (i.e. grinding mobs).
For others, it's doing lots of shallow quests for XP to level up; (i.e. grinding quests).
The only way that developers can "end" grinding is to make multiple paths of viable progression so that players of every preference can progress via a playstyle that they enjoy.
In essence, they "end" grinding by putting in more (but different) grinds.
Everything you've mentioned comes down to combat. Shallow quests = kill 5 of monster x. Kill 5 of monster x to get 5 of item y. Fight your way to location x and retrieve item y. if the combat were interesting, would you really complain about being told to fight?
I suppose one way to end the grind, could be the use of timers. For instance, you sub to a game, and then go ahead and play whatever the game has to offer (blow things up, make stuff bleed, follow a plot line) but you're slowly accumulating experience that you use to upgrade your character.
I guess that means veterans would have a huge advantage in the game, but hey, no more doing stuff you don't really like doing in order to advance the game!
Why are there so many cutesie, fantasy, childish MMO's. Give me blood, gore and a long lasting challenge. I don't need my hand being held along the way. Thanks.
I dont think there is a way to effectively end grinding.
What can probably be done is to mask the grind in something fun.
Take questing for example. If you look at older games where quests were few and far between you had to pretty much grind mobs to progress your character or skills. Questing added a layer to help soften the grind (by trying to add a 'reason' to it) If you followed the story of the quest, and if the story was written well, you felt less of a grind because you were trying to see the next part of the quest (kinda like watching a TV show).
The other way to eliminate grind is upto the player. Rushing through content makes you feel the grind ten fold. Players need to slow down a bit and try to enjoy the game. An MMO isnt Mario Bros and there is no princess in dire need of saving. Developers need to focus on this as well. At release an MMO should have a ton of content focused on the early to late middle game. End game content shouldnt even be focused on for release (not saying they shouldnt have it ready, it just shouldnt be the main focus for at least a few months down the road). If the early game content has a lot of thought put into it, you could effectively slow the leveling curve down and still allow players to have a great time. But again, its up to the player to learn to pace themselves and not run a three week blitz to reach level cap. Just slow down and take your time, its a game not a race.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I think making a game like an action game with dungeon's that incorporate things like jumping, puzzles, and rope swinging in the a mmo would add another level to a quest.
Like a Legend of Zelda MMO.
That would really add a lot more fun to questing for me.
But in general there needs to be more things to do of different types. Not just questing, leveling, exploring, pvping, fishing and crafting.
Adding things to each of those to vary enough to make it fun but not too much to spread people out too much. Also, things like racing, betting, side games, etc.
Having MORE diversity to what you do in a game lengthens its replay ability. If the game has a mix of things from different games it will appeal to more people and if done in a way to connect it with you character it will make the game be more well rounded.
MMOs don't HAVE to contain "grinding" similar to what people see it as today. There are ways to avoid grinding as a requirement (the option of grinding can always be there, but don't make it necessary).
So to start, get rid of levels! If the game is skill based, make sure that the skills are more "perks" than they are 100% required to fight. This makes it so that two people can have a great time together and each have their individual pros and cons, without having to worry about what "level" they are, or how many hours they spent grinding at an achievment. If they CHOOSE to grind (i.e. make housing furniture all day or train a particularly hard skill up a few points) they can feel good about it and show it off. But, it won't mean that a person without that achievment can't compete with them in pvp, or will not be as good as them in PvE.
Another thing that would help is an idea I had which I consider somewhat "proprietory" and wouldn't mention currently here. But basically it's a formula on how you can make a skill-based game (full loot even) work with questing...and not have to worry about experience or levels.
I don't mean to constantly spew out 'Sandbox is king' statements all the time...but thinking back in the days of UO it never felt like a grind really. Some skills were harder to gain than others...but it was even better when you bested your opponent without those skills
Disclaimer: This is not a troll post and is not here to promote any negative energy. Although this may be a criticism, it is not meant to offend anyone. If a moderator feels the post is inappropriate, please remove it immediately before it is subject to consideration for a warning. Thank you.
I also think the term "Grind" is the fault of the developers who set the values for the amount of experience we need to reach the next level. Killing 42 million mobs to see endgame just results in us feeling like we're grinding through.
It needs to be shorter and sweeter. Let us believe that we're achieving something but not painfully grinding to get there.
Games like Aion really define what "Grind" means.
Why are there so many cutesie, fantasy, childish MMO's. Give me blood, gore and a long lasting challenge. I don't need my hand being held along the way. Thanks.
How can developers end something that is in the control of it's players?
Plenty of MMORPG's under my belt, either fully played or tested but not once did I grind, I dislike that kind of playstyle, which is all Grind is to me a playstyle. I chooce not to grind, so in turn I might not hit cap lvl asap, I might not be the toughest ingame character within weeks, eventually I will ALWAY's reach that same lvl of those who "grind" onl;y thing is I personaly am enjoying the game allot longer and never get to a point of getting bored, cause to me grinding will also result in people getting bored very quick.
Simply put, If people dislike "TeH Grind" they might want to consider changing their own playstyle in this genre.
I like to get in a group and kill mobs with other players in a way that requires very tight coordination. Most games, like WoW have done away with this feature. But, when you have that feature I'm not bored, I'm having fun, so even though I'm technically "grinding" , killing mobs over and over, I enjoy it because of the team work required. Turn that into a solo fest, and it's just a boring grind for me, although some players love that. You have the mob grind. Kill mobs over and over. The quest grind. Kill mobs over and over, but in between an NPC tells you a retarded story before you can go kill more mobs. You have the materials grind. In EVE you mine for ISK, basically grind for money to build your spaceships. Why repetitive tasks? Otherwise you finish the game in a week, like most single player games, and people want an only game they can play for months and years, not weeks. The best way to get rid of the boredom of the "grind" either mob grind, quest grind, or material grind, is to encourage grouping. Groups make everything unpredictable, add a randomness to the game you won't get with NPC scripts and scripted Mob behaviors. Making the game solo friendly just makes it a boring grind, because that becomes the path of least resistance, and normal thinking human beings don't piss in the wind, swim upstream, etc.
Give us more games with mixed unit tactics, and skill and coordination are required for success - NOW
Why are there so many cutesie, fantasy, childish MMO's. Give me blood, gore and a long lasting challenge. I don't need my hand being held along the way. Thanks.
As long as there's the daily grind in real life.. games will alwaysa have it. If they manage to remove it from games... then someone needs to call my boss and tell him how to do it too
Exactly.
Everyday life is filled with this 'grind'. You go to work or school everyday, you do homework, and many, many more things.
There is grind in all mmos (and every other game type for that matter) because grinding is part of life.
How can developers end something that is in the control of it's players? Plenty of MMORPG's under my belt, either fully played or tested but not once did I grind, I dislike that kind of playstyle, which is all Grind is to me a playstyle. I chooce not to grind, so in turn I might not hit cap lvl asap, I might not be the toughest ingame character within weeks, eventually I will ALWAY's reach that same lvl of those who "grind" onl;y thing is I personaly am enjoying the game allot longer and never get to a point of getting bored, cause to me grinding will also result in people getting bored very quick.
^ This.
Grind is in the players hands ultimately. If all you care about is getting to the end game as fast as you can, then you will feel the grind. If you play to have fun and see all that a game has to offer throughout all the level ranges, then you will be less likely to feel the grind.
I also like taking my time in a game. To me there is no point in grinding all the way to max level as fast as I can only to spend the next few months repetitivly grinding raid bosses and encounters. After all, raiding is still a grind for gear, and a far worse grind than one would experience while leveling.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Concept- In pen and paper RPGs (and yes I'm one of those old guys), you as the GM/DM could choose to give experience points for kills only if you wanted to, but you had options to that "grind". I gave points for kills of course, but I gave more points for storyline items I had written into my quests. I gave points for my players who best exemplified their character's personas, I gave points for creative ways to solve problems, I gave points for resolving conflict without that conflict turning to violence, and many other various things I gave points for as the game progressed. Perhaps more ideas like these could be incorporated into an MMO to lessen the grind.
Devs don't eliminate grind, because they don't want to. It is not in their interest to do so. To the companies, MMORPGs aren't games - they are money making ventures.
If you had been paid per hour for your services as DM, you likely would have found grinds to sneak into your D&D sessions.
"Money changes everything" - Cyndi Lauper
It would be easy to take the grind out of MMOs. One boss for each character level in the game. Defeat a boss - gain that level. No repeating of bosses. One kill each. You can do the same for each step in a crafting profession.
Most players would love it - and quit playing in a month or two.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
What exactly is "grind"? I've heard the term tossed around a lot.
In simplest terms, "grind" is a repetitive action that you do not enjoy, but are forced to do in order to progress your character at a reasonable pace.
For some, it's killing lots of mobs for XP to level up; (i.e. grinding mobs).
For others, it's doing lots of shallow quests for XP to level up; (i.e. grinding quests).
The only way that developers can "end" grinding is to make multiple paths of viable progression so that players of every preference can progress via a playstyle that they enjoy.
In essence, they "end" grinding by putting in more (but different) grinds.
Everything you've mentioned comes down to combat. Shallow quests = kill 5 of monster x. Kill 5 of monster x to get 5 of item y. Fight your way to location x and retrieve item y. if the combat were interesting, would you really complain about being told to fight?
I'd always prefer quests to straight mob grinding.
I'm a goal oriented person. I like working towards something, even if it is shallow.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
MMOs don't HAVE to contain "grinding" similar to what people see it as today. There are ways to avoid grinding as a requirement (the option of grinding can always be there, but don't make it necessary). So to start, get rid of levels! If the game is skill based, make sure that the skills are more "perks" than they are 100% required to fight. This makes it so that two people can have a great time together and each have their individual pros and cons, without having to worry about what "level" they are, or how many hours they spent grinding at an achievment. If they CHOOSE to grind (i.e. make housing furniture all day or train a particularly hard skill up a few points) they can feel good about it and show it off. But, it won't mean that a person without that achievment can't compete with them in pvp, or will not be as good as them in PvE. Another thing that would help is an idea I had which I consider somewhat "proprietory" and wouldn't mention currently here. But basically it's a formula on how you can make a skill-based game (full loot even) work with questing...and not have to worry about experience or levels. I don't mean to constantly spew out 'Sandbox is king' statements all the time...but thinking back in the days of UO it never felt like a grind really. Some skills were harder to gain than others...but it was even better when you bested your opponent without those skills
I kill 1,000 mobs to go from level 1 to level two.
I kill 1,000 mobs and get a skill point. I decide to spend it on sword swinging skill, and raise my sword skill from skill 1 to skill 2. I COULD have spent the point in my fireball spell if I wanted to.
I kill 1,000 mobs swinging my sword, but NOT using my bow, and NOT using my fireball, and my sword swinging skill goes up from skill level one to skill level two. Whatever I use goes up in skill, so I use whatever I want to increase.
Not really seeing how one of these is a grind, and another is not.
A grindless game has to be based on things to do and killing mobs mindlessly obviously isn't it.
It has to have MORE things and all of the additional things have to be varied and fun. The others have to give experience just like grinding a mob would.
What exactly is "grind"? I've heard the term tossed around a lot, without a real sense of what it is. I get that it's doing the same thing over and over again, but I've never seen any activity, let alone video game, where this wasn't the case. In basketball, you grind points. In any video game, you repeat the same thing over and over. Was Megaman a grind? You jump from platform to platform and shoot things. That's it. Pacman grinds dots in a maze. Grind is one of those overused buzzwords that has no meaning. Every game involves repeating activities. So, what activities are grind and which aren't? The closest I've been able to tell is, grind is what you don't like. And that's a very silly way to decide it, since, as has been previously stated in this threat, one man's immersion is another's grind. So, until we can come up with a more concrete definition of what grind is, I doubt we can really find a meaningful way to do away with it.
That's a good point. You can even take that outside of video games. Take games such as bowling, billiards, darts or horse shoes. The actions are very repetitive, in fact, doing well depends greatly on being able to do the same thing over and over again. It's funny though, I find bowling really boring and yet I love playing darts.
If you're not crazy about doing something the first time, you're going to despise it by the 100th time.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Can look at it as grind or as working towards a goal. Would you prefer having it all handed to you and pay 15 bucks a month for a game where you worked towards nothing what so ever? Grind itself is literally working up towards either leveling, items, gear, raids, guilds, etc etc etc. Want it all handed to you fat chance that will happen. Even in the world of games you gotta work towards your end goal. Make some friends, maybe RP a little to get your mind off the kill kill kill focus. Have more fun that way.
When did you start playing "old school" MMO's. World Of Warcraft?
Depends on what you call "GRIND". To me grinding have having to kill the same mobs over and over because it is the only way to get to the next level. This is where I think EQ2 has done a great job! There are MORE than enough quests to level without the need to just "GRIND" the same mobs. You can go from level 1 to 80 just doing quests and never even get to do ALL the quests as there is so many. But this is just what I think "GRINDING" is.
I think making a game like an action game with dungeon's that incorporate things like jumping, puzzles, and rope swinging in the a mmo would add another level to a quest. Like a Legend of Zelda MMO. That would really add a lot more fun to questing for me. But in general there needs to be more things to do of different types. Not just questing, leveling, exploring, pvping, fishing and crafting. Adding things to each of those to vary enough to make it fun but not too much to spread people out too much. Also, things like racing, betting, side games, etc. Having MORE diversity to what you do in a game lengthens its replay ability. If the game has a mix of things from different games it will appeal to more people and if done in a way to connect it with you character it will make the game be more well rounded.
Asheron's Call had jumping and puzzles to make it through quest dungeons, DDO also had puzzles, not sure about jumping though. It really does improve the game quite a bit.
Let's take a step back and dismiss an assumption that the title of this thread hints at:
Grinds are necessary.
Why?
Michael Phelps didn't become the best swimmer in the world because getting up at 4am to swim for 2+ hrs staring at the bottom of a pool was 'fun'. Lance Armstrong didn't become the best cyclist in the world because fighting cancer, coming back from fighting cancer, weighing meals on a plate and training solo was 'fun'.Georg Cantor didn't single-handedly develop the most shattering mathmatical concept the modern world has known, fighting depression and alienation from the mathmatical community because it was 'fun'.
These individuals recognized and embraced an opportunity to become a better person via an avenue of their choice, and took on the task- both the joy and the pain that are always coupled in any undertaking.
We're not all type-A personalities. We don't all want ourselves to be the best of the best of the best at what we do. Some of us are content to be one of the masses, choosing to etch our identity with friends or family rather than with the community at large.
Regardless of where we draw our drive from, we all do have things that we enjoy. And by enjoying something, you will inevitably want to become better at what you enjoy. Because of this, you will need to learn. Sooner or later, learning involves practice, and practice will have a certain degree of discomfort associated with it.
But how do you make that discomfort 'manageable'? Every opera singer embraces routine via vocal warm-ups that don't differ one bit from one recital to another, one performance to another. The first step is for the gamer to embrace whatever it is at hand. By embracing it, the gamer will take responsibility, put in effort. Without a dedication factor, you will absolutely incur a dismissal of interest on the behalf of the gamer.
How do you make that embracing take place?
The developper needs to do the exact same thing on their end. Embrace making content that betters the player. Teaches the player. Encourages the player. Wax-on, wax-off? Repetitious. Throw in a punch right at the point where the gamer is about tired of it, and BAM! The gamer now has learnt something. All that time and effort now has meaning.
Just like athletes need workouts that are physically stimulating, and intellectuals require problems to solve that are mentally stimulating, a developper must equally do all the aforementioned pertaining to a game, plus develop content that is socially/goal/mentally/etc stimulating as well. Using more than 1 avenue of approach with regards to the 'grind':
Killing is 1 dimensional. Killing coupled with crafting coupled with puzzles coupled with scavenger hunts coupled with lore quizzes etc establishes a wide range of avenues.
Killing that impacts the world, crafting that impacts the economy, puzzles that impact fortifications, scavenger hunts that impact ..., lore quizzes that impact ... etc establishes depth to your range.
For both gamers and devs, this is the train of thought that should be embraced when considering 'how to put an end to the grind'.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
What exactly is "grind"? I've heard the term tossed around a lot.
In simplest terms, "grind" is a repetitive action that you do not enjoy, but are forced to do in order to progress your character at a reasonable pace.
For some, it's killing lots of mobs for XP to level up; (i.e. grinding mobs).
For others, it's doing lots of shallow quests for XP to level up; (i.e. grinding quests).
The only way that developers can "end" grinding is to make multiple paths of viable progression so that players of every preference can progress via a playstyle that they enjoy.
In essence, they "end" grinding by putting in more (but different) grinds.
Multiple, yet equally viable paths would work. They'd have to make sure you're equally rewarded as far as gear, items, and money is concerned for grinding mobs or quests. I still think grouping should have an advantage, since it's harder to form groups in the first place, and anything worth grouping for will likely destroy people solo. Just my opinion though.
How can developers end something that is in the control of it's players? Plenty of MMORPG's under my belt, either fully played or tested but not once did I grind, I dislike that kind of playstyle, which is all Grind is to me a playstyle. I chooce not to grind, so in turn I might not hit cap lvl asap, I might not be the toughest ingame character within weeks, eventually I will ALWAY's reach that same lvl of those who "grind" onl;y thing is I personaly am enjoying the game allot longer and never get to a point of getting bored, cause to me grinding will also result in people getting bored very quick.
^ This.
Grind is in the players hands ultimately. If all you care about is getting to the end game as fast as you can, then you will feel the grind. If you play to have fun and see all that a game has to offer throughout all the level ranges, then you will be less likely to feel the grind.
I also like taking my time in a game. To me there is no point in grinding all the way to max level as fast as I can only to spend the next few months repetitivly grinding raid bosses and encounters. After all, raiding is still a grind for gear, and a far worse grind than one would experience while leveling.
Even taking your time, experiencing all the game has to offer could be considered a grind if what there is to experience is tedious and repetitive. For example, hundreds and thousands of quests that could be better described as tasks and chores will feel tedious and repetitive for me, no matter how slow I do them.
Imagine you work in a sword making shop. Your job is to grind the burr off the edge of the sword. It takes 15 seconds each and that is all you do for 10 hours a day. You grind. The master of the shop takes the sword blade, balances it and assembles all the pieces together into a mastercrafted sword. He also works 10 hours a day. But he doesnt grind.
Actually, the "grind" could be done away with fairly easily if devs actually wanted to...part of the "problem" is that many players want the grind. Take away the artificially measured and incremented aspects of an MMO and many players scream that it "lacks content" or that it is "too easy".
You want a game without grind?
Step ONE: Design a level-less system from the start; probably even a classless one which allows things like offline training. Keep everything very incremental, gradual and casually paced - mechanisms that reward experiencing the game universe, not grinding and gimmicking.
Step TWO: Design a persistant and interactive world where doing the things you need to do are *fun* or at least interactive and immersive. This doesn't mean everything is fun for everyone, but that the systems are fun and appropriate for those using them...someone who wants to be a "hunter" should be able to go out and stalk deer in an enjoyable fashion; likewise forging a sword should be more than dropping 3 items in a container and hitting combine.
Step THREE: DO NOT focus the game on "endgame content"; in fact there should be no such thing! Things should be kept open ended enough that you never really feel "done". Part of this is combat balance, a more realistic skill-based system where one veteran knight might well get his arse kicked if that pack of villagers pounce on him is required.
Personally, I think grinding is both a developer and a player issue. A developer doesn't think, "Let's make another grind", they think, "How can we get them to the next level?" ; and it turns into a grind. At the same time, you can't stop a player from playing a game 10 hours a day and turning their own experience into a grind.
You can't ever really take away the "grind". It exists in games, in real life, it's everywhere, there's just no way around it, (unless you're the kind of person who is content with the way things are, and doesn't ever want to move forward in life, or accomplish any goals). I've thought a lot about the grind myself, because I have played a lot of games that I completed hated grinding to level up; and it REALLY sucked to the point I would stop playing the game altogether.
I have always believed that developers should stray away from the "grind" aspect of any game as much as possible, WITHOUT sacrificing gameplay and fun factor. You also have to think of grinding as a way for developers to insure income for their game. It's a good way, but it's also a bad way to keep players because the game becomes less important than making money does. There are a lot of arguments you could make about this subject, and I could go on forever about it. I will just list my ideas on how to get rid of the grind.
-Making a more immersive experience for the player so they don't know they are "grinding". There are very few games where this happens, usually the best of the best RPG's I've ever played. I was so engaged in the story, and seeing what would happen next that I paid no attention to leveling whatsoever.
-More types of experience, or experience rewards. A more complex experience system, almost random in a sense, would make the player forget about leveling and just enjoy the game. I was recently playing on an NWN2 server that rewarded experience points for standing around and "roleplaying" with other players. It seemed fairly random, but I know that when I stopped to talk to another player, I would always have a chance to get that bonus xp.
-Rewards, rewards, rewards. I have always believed in giving the player experience for doing almost anything in the game. The achievement system in World of Warcraft is a prime example: You get achievement points, but they are completely useless, if they perhaps awarded experience, people might be more inclined to go out and complete them. At the same time, the system should be complex, in the sense that completing the same achievement on different levels would reward more experience, so there are always more achievements to do while leveling. More on rewards: players should get rewarded for doing ALL types of things. In Warhammer, you get things for completing item sets, or unlocking certain titles in the game. Take perhaps an armory, and give the player experience for discovering new items they have never seen before.
While these are only a few of the ideas that I have had regarding the subject, they should give you guys something to chew on.
Actually, the "grind" could be done away with fairly easily if devs actually wanted to...part of the "problem" is that many players want the grind. Take away the artificially measured and incremented aspects of an MMO and many players scream that it "lacks content" or that it is "too easy". You want a game without grind? Step ONE: Design a level-less system from the start; probably even a classless one which allows things like offline training. Keep everything very incremental, gradual and casually paced - mechanisms that reward experiencing the game universe, not grinding and gimmicking. Step TWO: Design a persistant and interactive world where doing the things you need to do are *fun* or at least interactive and immersive. This doesn't mean everything is fun for everyone, but that the systems are fun and appropriate for those using them...someone who wants to be a "hunter" should be able to go out and stalk deer in an enjoyable fashion; likewise forging a sword should be more than dropping 3 items in a container and hitting combine. Step THREE: DO NOT focus the game on "endgame content"; in fact there should be no such thing! Things should be kept open ended enough that you never really feel "done". Part of this is combat balance, a more realistic skill-based system where one veteran knight might well get his arse kicked if that pack of villagers pounce on him is required.
I have always agreed that developers should keep the player away from the end-game as much as possible without sacrificing the fun factor and gameplay. Another way you could use that mode of thinking.
Comments
In simplest terms, "grind" is a repetitive action that you do not enjoy, but are forced to do in order to progress your character at a reasonable pace.
For some, it's killing lots of mobs for XP to level up; (i.e. grinding mobs).
For others, it's doing lots of shallow quests for XP to level up; (i.e. grinding quests).
The only way that developers can "end" grinding is to make multiple paths of viable progression so that players of every preference can progress via a playstyle that they enjoy.
In essence, they "end" grinding by putting in more (but different) grinds.
Everything you've mentioned comes down to combat. Shallow quests = kill 5 of monster x. Kill 5 of monster x to get 5 of item y. Fight your way to location x and retrieve item y. if the combat were interesting, would you really complain about being told to fight?
I suppose one way to end the grind, could be the use of timers. For instance, you sub to a game, and then go ahead and play whatever the game has to offer (blow things up, make stuff bleed, follow a plot line) but you're slowly accumulating experience that you use to upgrade your character.
I guess that means veterans would have a huge advantage in the game, but hey, no more doing stuff you don't really like doing in order to advance the game!
Why are there so many cutesie, fantasy, childish MMO's. Give me blood, gore and a long lasting challenge. I don't need my hand being held along the way. Thanks.
I dont think there is a way to effectively end grinding.
What can probably be done is to mask the grind in something fun.
Take questing for example. If you look at older games where quests were few and far between you had to pretty much grind mobs to progress your character or skills. Questing added a layer to help soften the grind (by trying to add a 'reason' to it) If you followed the story of the quest, and if the story was written well, you felt less of a grind because you were trying to see the next part of the quest (kinda like watching a TV show).
The other way to eliminate grind is upto the player. Rushing through content makes you feel the grind ten fold. Players need to slow down a bit and try to enjoy the game. An MMO isnt Mario Bros and there is no princess in dire need of saving. Developers need to focus on this as well. At release an MMO should have a ton of content focused on the early to late middle game. End game content shouldnt even be focused on for release (not saying they shouldnt have it ready, it just shouldnt be the main focus for at least a few months down the road). If the early game content has a lot of thought put into it, you could effectively slow the leveling curve down and still allow players to have a great time. But again, its up to the player to learn to pace themselves and not run a three week blitz to reach level cap. Just slow down and take your time, its a game not a race.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I think making a game like an action game with dungeon's that incorporate things like jumping, puzzles, and rope swinging in the a mmo would add another level to a quest.
Like a Legend of Zelda MMO.
That would really add a lot more fun to questing for me.
But in general there needs to be more things to do of different types. Not just questing, leveling, exploring, pvping, fishing and crafting.
Adding things to each of those to vary enough to make it fun but not too much to spread people out too much. Also, things like racing, betting, side games, etc.
Having MORE diversity to what you do in a game lengthens its replay ability. If the game has a mix of things from different games it will appeal to more people and if done in a way to connect it with you character it will make the game be more well rounded.
MMOs don't HAVE to contain "grinding" similar to what people see it as today. There are ways to avoid grinding as a requirement (the option of grinding can always be there, but don't make it necessary).
So to start, get rid of levels! If the game is skill based, make sure that the skills are more "perks" than they are 100% required to fight. This makes it so that two people can have a great time together and each have their individual pros and cons, without having to worry about what "level" they are, or how many hours they spent grinding at an achievment. If they CHOOSE to grind (i.e. make housing furniture all day or train a particularly hard skill up a few points) they can feel good about it and show it off. But, it won't mean that a person without that achievment can't compete with them in pvp, or will not be as good as them in PvE.
Another thing that would help is an idea I had which I consider somewhat "proprietory" and wouldn't mention currently here. But basically it's a formula on how you can make a skill-based game (full loot even) work with questing...and not have to worry about experience or levels.
I don't mean to constantly spew out 'Sandbox is king' statements all the time...but thinking back in the days of UO it never felt like a grind really. Some skills were harder to gain than others...but it was even better when you bested your opponent without those skills
Disclaimer: This is not a troll post and is not here to promote any negative energy. Although this may be a criticism, it is not meant to offend anyone. If a moderator feels the post is inappropriate, please remove it immediately before it is subject to consideration for a warning. Thank you.
I also think the term "Grind" is the fault of the developers who set the values for the amount of experience we need to reach the next level. Killing 42 million mobs to see endgame just results in us feeling like we're grinding through.
It needs to be shorter and sweeter. Let us believe that we're achieving something but not painfully grinding to get there.
Games like Aion really define what "Grind" means.
Why are there so many cutesie, fantasy, childish MMO's. Give me blood, gore and a long lasting challenge. I don't need my hand being held along the way. Thanks.
How can developers end something that is in the control of it's players?
Plenty of MMORPG's under my belt, either fully played or tested but not once did I grind, I dislike that kind of playstyle, which is all Grind is to me a playstyle. I chooce not to grind, so in turn I might not hit cap lvl asap, I might not be the toughest ingame character within weeks, eventually I will ALWAY's reach that same lvl of those who "grind" onl;y thing is I personaly am enjoying the game allot longer and never get to a point of getting bored, cause to me grinding will also result in people getting bored very quick.
Simply put, If people dislike "TeH Grind" they might want to consider changing their own playstyle in this genre.
Why are there so many cutesie, fantasy, childish MMO's. Give me blood, gore and a long lasting challenge. I don't need my hand being held along the way. Thanks.
Exactly.
Everyday life is filled with this 'grind'. You go to work or school everyday, you do homework, and many, many more things.
There is grind in all mmos (and every other game type for that matter) because grinding is part of life.
Mr. Bagguns
^ This.
Grind is in the players hands ultimately. If all you care about is getting to the end game as fast as you can, then you will feel the grind. If you play to have fun and see all that a game has to offer throughout all the level ranges, then you will be less likely to feel the grind.
I also like taking my time in a game. To me there is no point in grinding all the way to max level as fast as I can only to spend the next few months repetitivly grinding raid bosses and encounters. After all, raiding is still a grind for gear, and a far worse grind than one would experience while leveling.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Devs don't eliminate grind, because they don't want to. It is not in their interest to do so. To the companies, MMORPGs aren't games - they are money making ventures.
If you had been paid per hour for your services as DM, you likely would have found grinds to sneak into your D&D sessions.
"Money changes everything" - Cyndi Lauper
It would be easy to take the grind out of MMOs. One boss for each character level in the game. Defeat a boss - gain that level. No repeating of bosses. One kill each. You can do the same for each step in a crafting profession.
Most players would love it - and quit playing in a month or two.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
In simplest terms, "grind" is a repetitive action that you do not enjoy, but are forced to do in order to progress your character at a reasonable pace.
For some, it's killing lots of mobs for XP to level up; (i.e. grinding mobs).
For others, it's doing lots of shallow quests for XP to level up; (i.e. grinding quests).
The only way that developers can "end" grinding is to make multiple paths of viable progression so that players of every preference can progress via a playstyle that they enjoy.
In essence, they "end" grinding by putting in more (but different) grinds.
Everything you've mentioned comes down to combat. Shallow quests = kill 5 of monster x. Kill 5 of monster x to get 5 of item y. Fight your way to location x and retrieve item y. if the combat were interesting, would you really complain about being told to fight?
I'd always prefer quests to straight mob grinding.
I'm a goal oriented person. I like working towards something, even if it is shallow.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I kill 1,000 mobs to go from level 1 to level two.
I kill 1,000 mobs and get a skill point. I decide to spend it on sword swinging skill, and raise my sword skill from skill 1 to skill 2. I COULD have spent the point in my fireball spell if I wanted to.
I kill 1,000 mobs swinging my sword, but NOT using my bow, and NOT using my fireball, and my sword swinging skill goes up from skill level one to skill level two. Whatever I use goes up in skill, so I use whatever I want to increase.
Not really seeing how one of these is a grind, and another is not.
A grindless game has to be based on things to do and killing mobs mindlessly obviously isn't it.
It has to have MORE things and all of the additional things have to be varied and fun. The others have to give experience just like grinding a mob would.
That's a good point. You can even take that outside of video games. Take games such as bowling, billiards, darts or horse shoes. The actions are very repetitive, in fact, doing well depends greatly on being able to do the same thing over and over again. It's funny though, I find bowling really boring and yet I love playing darts.
If you're not crazy about doing something the first time, you're going to despise it by the 100th time.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Can look at it as grind or as working towards a goal. Would you prefer having it all handed to you and pay 15 bucks a month for a game where you worked towards nothing what so ever? Grind itself is literally working up towards either leveling, items, gear, raids, guilds, etc etc etc. Want it all handed to you fat chance that will happen. Even in the world of games you gotta work towards your end goal. Make some friends, maybe RP a little to get your mind off the kill kill kill focus. Have more fun that way.
When did you start playing "old school" MMO's. World Of Warcraft?
Depends on what you call "GRIND". To me grinding have having to kill the same mobs over and over because it is the only way to get to the next level. This is where I think EQ2 has done a great job! There are MORE than enough quests to level without the need to just "GRIND" the same mobs. You can go from level 1 to 80 just doing quests and never even get to do ALL the quests as there is so many. But this is just what I think "GRINDING" is.
Asheron's Call had jumping and puzzles to make it through quest dungeons, DDO also had puzzles, not sure about jumping though. It really does improve the game quite a bit.
Let's take a step back and dismiss an assumption that the title of this thread hints at:
Grinds are necessary.
Why?
Michael Phelps didn't become the best swimmer in the world because getting up at 4am to swim for 2+ hrs staring at the bottom of a pool was 'fun'. Lance Armstrong didn't become the best cyclist in the world because fighting cancer, coming back from fighting cancer, weighing meals on a plate and training solo was 'fun'.Georg Cantor didn't single-handedly develop the most shattering mathmatical concept the modern world has known, fighting depression and alienation from the mathmatical community because it was 'fun'.
These individuals recognized and embraced an opportunity to become a better person via an avenue of their choice, and took on the task- both the joy and the pain that are always coupled in any undertaking.
We're not all type-A personalities. We don't all want ourselves to be the best of the best of the best at what we do. Some of us are content to be one of the masses, choosing to etch our identity with friends or family rather than with the community at large.
Regardless of where we draw our drive from, we all do have things that we enjoy. And by enjoying something, you will inevitably want to become better at what you enjoy. Because of this, you will need to learn. Sooner or later, learning involves practice, and practice will have a certain degree of discomfort associated with it.
But how do you make that discomfort 'manageable'? Every opera singer embraces routine via vocal warm-ups that don't differ one bit from one recital to another, one performance to another. The first step is for the gamer to embrace whatever it is at hand. By embracing it, the gamer will take responsibility, put in effort. Without a dedication factor, you will absolutely incur a dismissal of interest on the behalf of the gamer.
How do you make that embracing take place?
The developper needs to do the exact same thing on their end. Embrace making content that betters the player. Teaches the player. Encourages the player. Wax-on, wax-off? Repetitious. Throw in a punch right at the point where the gamer is about tired of it, and BAM! The gamer now has learnt something. All that time and effort now has meaning.
Just like athletes need workouts that are physically stimulating, and intellectuals require problems to solve that are mentally stimulating, a developper must equally do all the aforementioned pertaining to a game, plus develop content that is socially/goal/mentally/etc stimulating as well. Using more than 1 avenue of approach with regards to the 'grind':
Killing is 1 dimensional. Killing coupled with crafting coupled with puzzles coupled with scavenger hunts coupled with lore quizzes etc establishes a wide range of avenues.
Killing that impacts the world, crafting that impacts the economy, puzzles that impact fortifications, scavenger hunts that impact ..., lore quizzes that impact ... etc establishes depth to your range.
For both gamers and devs, this is the train of thought that should be embraced when considering 'how to put an end to the grind'.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
In simplest terms, "grind" is a repetitive action that you do not enjoy, but are forced to do in order to progress your character at a reasonable pace.
For some, it's killing lots of mobs for XP to level up; (i.e. grinding mobs).
For others, it's doing lots of shallow quests for XP to level up; (i.e. grinding quests).
The only way that developers can "end" grinding is to make multiple paths of viable progression so that players of every preference can progress via a playstyle that they enjoy.
In essence, they "end" grinding by putting in more (but different) grinds.
Multiple, yet equally viable paths would work. They'd have to make sure you're equally rewarded as far as gear, items, and money is concerned for grinding mobs or quests. I still think grouping should have an advantage, since it's harder to form groups in the first place, and anything worth grouping for will likely destroy people solo. Just my opinion though.
^ This.
Grind is in the players hands ultimately. If all you care about is getting to the end game as fast as you can, then you will feel the grind. If you play to have fun and see all that a game has to offer throughout all the level ranges, then you will be less likely to feel the grind.
I also like taking my time in a game. To me there is no point in grinding all the way to max level as fast as I can only to spend the next few months repetitivly grinding raid bosses and encounters. After all, raiding is still a grind for gear, and a far worse grind than one would experience while leveling.
Even taking your time, experiencing all the game has to offer could be considered a grind if what there is to experience is tedious and repetitive. For example, hundreds and thousands of quests that could be better described as tasks and chores will feel tedious and repetitive for me, no matter how slow I do them.
My definition of a grind:
A trivially easy operation repeated ad infinitum.
Imagine you work in a sword making shop. Your job is to grind the burr off the edge of the sword. It takes 15 seconds each and that is all you do for 10 hours a day. You grind. The master of the shop takes the sword blade, balances it and assembles all the pieces together into a mastercrafted sword. He also works 10 hours a day. But he doesnt grind.
Actually, the "grind" could be done away with fairly easily if devs actually wanted to...part of the "problem" is that many players want the grind. Take away the artificially measured and incremented aspects of an MMO and many players scream that it "lacks content" or that it is "too easy".
You want a game without grind?
Step ONE: Design a level-less system from the start; probably even a classless one which allows things like offline training. Keep everything very incremental, gradual and casually paced - mechanisms that reward experiencing the game universe, not grinding and gimmicking.
Step TWO: Design a persistant and interactive world where doing the things you need to do are *fun* or at least interactive and immersive. This doesn't mean everything is fun for everyone, but that the systems are fun and appropriate for those using them...someone who wants to be a "hunter" should be able to go out and stalk deer in an enjoyable fashion; likewise forging a sword should be more than dropping 3 items in a container and hitting combine.
Step THREE: DO NOT focus the game on "endgame content"; in fact there should be no such thing! Things should be kept open ended enough that you never really feel "done". Part of this is combat balance, a more realistic skill-based system where one veteran knight might well get his arse kicked if that pack of villagers pounce on him is required.
A lot of good points in this thread.
Personally, I think grinding is both a developer and a player issue. A developer doesn't think, "Let's make another grind", they think, "How can we get them to the next level?" ; and it turns into a grind. At the same time, you can't stop a player from playing a game 10 hours a day and turning their own experience into a grind.
You can't ever really take away the "grind". It exists in games, in real life, it's everywhere, there's just no way around it, (unless you're the kind of person who is content with the way things are, and doesn't ever want to move forward in life, or accomplish any goals). I've thought a lot about the grind myself, because I have played a lot of games that I completed hated grinding to level up; and it REALLY sucked to the point I would stop playing the game altogether.
I have always believed that developers should stray away from the "grind" aspect of any game as much as possible, WITHOUT sacrificing gameplay and fun factor. You also have to think of grinding as a way for developers to insure income for their game. It's a good way, but it's also a bad way to keep players because the game becomes less important than making money does. There are a lot of arguments you could make about this subject, and I could go on forever about it. I will just list my ideas on how to get rid of the grind.
-Making a more immersive experience for the player so they don't know they are "grinding". There are very few games where this happens, usually the best of the best RPG's I've ever played. I was so engaged in the story, and seeing what would happen next that I paid no attention to leveling whatsoever.
-More types of experience, or experience rewards. A more complex experience system, almost random in a sense, would make the player forget about leveling and just enjoy the game. I was recently playing on an NWN2 server that rewarded experience points for standing around and "roleplaying" with other players. It seemed fairly random, but I know that when I stopped to talk to another player, I would always have a chance to get that bonus xp.
-Rewards, rewards, rewards. I have always believed in giving the player experience for doing almost anything in the game. The achievement system in World of Warcraft is a prime example: You get achievement points, but they are completely useless, if they perhaps awarded experience, people might be more inclined to go out and complete them. At the same time, the system should be complex, in the sense that completing the same achievement on different levels would reward more experience, so there are always more achievements to do while leveling. More on rewards: players should get rewarded for doing ALL types of things. In Warhammer, you get things for completing item sets, or unlocking certain titles in the game. Take perhaps an armory, and give the player experience for discovering new items they have never seen before.
While these are only a few of the ideas that I have had regarding the subject, they should give you guys something to chew on.
I have always agreed that developers should keep the player away from the end-game as much as possible without sacrificing the fun factor and gameplay. Another way you could use that mode of thinking.