Quite honestly, the only real solution to this problem is to make a game so incredibly awesome that people just want to log in for the experience. This won't be happening for another 10-15 years. You have to make a game within a game, within a game, within a game, within a game. An MMORPG should be the ultimate game, an alternate reality. The only way any game has even gotten close to this point is by staying online for many years and adding more and more content, always thinking of something new the player can do.
I like the Ideas of the op. If they make less quests but ad bonus XP to those quests it would be sweet, as well as having multiple ways of completing a quests be it slaying everything or sneaking around or just talking your way out of something. Quest xp was introduced to try and disguise the grinding of mobs but in all reality its just the same thing but a little stupid story to go along with it.
We need quests that will make us think and aren't just go kill X creatures because they are attacking the village. Put unique puzzles in games make us ask every NPC in town to find quests or to find the right information. More exploring and less killing that is what will make a game not seem as grindy.
-Rewards, rewards, rewards. I have always believed in giving the player experience for doing almost anything in the game. The achievement system in World of Warcraft is a prime example: You get achievement points, but they are completely useless, if they perhaps awarded experience, people might be more inclined to go out and complete them.
Well, I completely agree with you on this point. I would have dove into the achievements if I could have leveled my characters by doing them.
You are absolutely right that having a variety of ways to level is a superior design.
A system which had separate xp for PvE, PvP, crafting, and 'exploring' would be a big draw of many different types of players.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Are we as gamers always going to have to live with "grinding"? Is "grinding" absolutely necessary in an MMO? Can't developers come up with something different? Would we as players ever truly want to play a game where there was little to no "grinding"? What do you all say? How can developers bring grinding to an end? How can we as players help to make such a change? Do we as a community have any good ideas that should be heard concerning this issue? I'd really like to read what you all have to say about this. Grind is a part of every MMO. It is like an opinion and everyone has a different view about it. What some percieve as a grind others enjoy. - I never once felt that FFXI was a grind. Although I am sure that many would disagree on that. - I also enjoyed maplestory way back around its release. I felt it had decent pace until just after level 110. I know many disagree with me on that, since it is the only game on the market where powerleveling is acceptable to the community.
Here are a few of my ideas as to how to at least lessen the grind and bring about more fun for MMO gamers: Concept- Do any of you remember the Top Secret project that existed a few years ago? That attempt was to gather just ordinary players together to create a new MMO. I don't know what happened to it (other than the Leader of the project decided the genre the project was going to do was a Racing MMO; at which point I bowed out) but perhaps more kinds of project like that would help create games and in that creation time perhaps come up with more "out of the box" thinking that could potentially lead to either less grind or better gameplay that would mask the grind. I agree that not only MMOs but the entire genre could use a boost from hobbysists. I think the major problem is that most of the tools in the trade are out of reach for 99% of those with interest. I don' know many people that would spend 5 grand just for a licensed version of 3dsMax. Concept- In pen and paper RPGs (and yes I'm one of those old guys), you as the GM/DM could choose to give experience points for kills only if you wanted to, but you had options to that "grind". I gave points for kills of course, but I gave more points for storyline items I had written into my quests. I gave points for my players who best exemplified their character's personas, I gave points for creative ways to solve problems, I gave points for resolving conflict without that conflict turning to violence, and many other various things I gave points for as the game progressed. Perhaps more ideas like these could be incorporated into an MMO to lessen the grind. That is a pretty interesting concept. It would be hard to actually implement that into a game, but maybe somewhere down the line something similar could make it's way in. Concept- Getting rid of levels. Is that truly possible? It might be hard to imagine an MMO without true levels, character progression trees, skill trees, etc. How would you improve as a character? A good question to be sure, but the grinding begins BECAUSE you have to make the next level for the next uber power or 133t loot... maybe then the question should be: Should we get rid of uber powers and leet loot?
This is 100% not possible. People have to be rewarded for what they do and many like to view their progress. Levels are more about providing people with something in exchange for their time. However, I do agree that depending on game design levels should not play more than just a fluff value. PvP orientated games are one type that I think gain from this type of design. I am not saying these ideas are even possible or may not even wanted by the MMO gamer population at all but I'd sure like all of you to weigh in on this issue. Since grinding is something almost all of us complain about then maybe as a community we can think of ways that developers could resolve this problem. Let me hear your thoughts!
I agree with a post earlier in this thread... Grind is subjective. What one person thinks is a "miserable grind", like leveling, another player will think is a relaxing way to enjoy some time in game while he chats with friends in-game or on Vent. I actually fall into this category in L2. To me, grinding xp is what you do while hanging out with cool people, and the time just flies by. In Final Fantasy XI, I loved xp parties - they could go for 4 hours and I'd enjoy them, so long as it was a good group and we were doing okay. Others consider leveling in FFXI to be a miserable grind. Some people find crafting to be an annoying grind that they "have to do" just to get their crafting good enough to make profitable items. Some people make a science out of it - finding the optimum way to find the best materials at the best prices (free if possible) then working the auction house to find the best times to sell them, etc. etc. Good friend of mine in FFXI literally did not xp any jobs for like 4 months because he was so caught up in working the market, finding the most cost-effective ways to level a craft, etc. He loved it. Others can't stand it. It all comes down to the individual. There's no way a developer can "eliminate grind" because there's no way they can control how people perceive different content. I have this thing about that whole "the developers have to do something about it". What exactly do they have to do? MMORPGs are what they are. They're long-term online games that are ever expanding (ideally) where developing a character is a key part. Even in real life, skill is acquired through repetition.
A golfer has to "grind" to improve his game. A marksman has to "grind" to improve his shot... and so forth. But both the Golfer and the Marksman, presumably, *enjoy* what they do. If they didn't enjoy it, then they probably wouldn't bother doing it in the first place. And maybe that's the key. If you find MMOs to be too grindy for your liking and you can't enjoy leveling or crafting, or obtaining better gear over a long period of time.... then perhaps the best answer is not to play MMOs? There are certainly plenty of other people who *do* enjoy that kind of thing, so is it fair to say that "there's something wrong with it" because you don't enjoy it personally? I'd say not. I don't find the idea of hitting a ball across a golf course and then chasing after it to be very exciting or interesting.... doens't mean there's something "wrong" with the activity that needs to be addressed, as plenty of others obviously enjoy it quite a lot as it is. To me, it's not about what the developers should do to "fix" the problem. It comes down to the players taking some accountability for their own time and decide, by say, deciding to walk away from something they don't enjoy doing.
MMOs don't HAVE to contain "grinding" similar to what people see it as today. There are ways to avoid grinding as a requirement (the option of grinding can always be there, but don't make it necessary). So to start, get rid of levels! If the game is skill based, make sure that the skills are more "perks" than they are 100% required to fight. This makes it so that two people can have a great time together and each have their individual pros and cons, without having to worry about what "level" they are, or how many hours they spent grinding at an achievment. If they CHOOSE to grind (i.e. make housing furniture all day or train a particularly hard skill up a few points) they can feel good about it and show it off. But, it won't mean that a person without that achievment can't compete with them in pvp, or will not be as good as them in PvE. Another thing that would help is an idea I had which I consider somewhat "proprietory" and wouldn't mention currently here. But basically it's a formula on how you can make a skill-based game (full loot even) work with questing...and not have to worry about experience or levels. I don't mean to constantly spew out 'Sandbox is king' statements all the time...but thinking back in the days of UO it never felt like a grind really. Some skills were harder to gain than others...but it was even better when you bested your opponent without those skills
I really like this insight Excalaber, perhaps therein lies a solution to at least masking the grind and making it more fun? Still an idea worth looking into in my opinion.
The thing about PvP is that every once in a while, you meet someone with equal skills and equipment and the fights can be really entertaining. Especially if the game you're playing has a lot of move and counter moves like WoW. Heal versus rogue kick, sheep versus spell reflect and so on.
I've never met a mob that can kick my arse as thoroughly as another human.
People have different definitions of grind, and what might seem to be grind might not be for another person. Case in point; there are people in other MMORPG forums who actually want a system in which there are less quests and more mob killing, because this means that it is less likely for a party member to leave because they have completed a quest. Which makes sense really, though I have to admit that I would not like that kind of system at all, because I find it boring to be doing the same thing over and over again. However, what I like, some people would consider "Quest Grind". And this is one prime example of how an opinion differs.
Hence, though the possibility of completely eliminating grind is impossible, there is a chance of lessening that feeling of repetition. One way is a good storyline; complete with missions, in which a person is so involved in the storyline that he or she does not even feel the grind. I feel that Guild Wars is particularly successful in that, because it's mainly about reaching a place, and you have to kill mobs to reach that place; it gives one a sense of purpose. Of course, there is always title grind as well (which, sad to say, Guild Wars is also good at) but I tend to not bother with that at all. It is good that such things are optional, and that you don't actually have to do it if you don't want to.
World War II Online has no grind to speak of. Unless of course you believe that improving your own personal skill at the game 'a grind.' An MMO doesn't need 'grind' to stay in business either. It just needs to be fun. WWII Online is fun, and that's all that matters (I left the game for reasons unrelated to gameplay). It would never happen, but I'd like to see a fantasy MMO do away with levels and skill points all together. You'd have a dozen or so 'archetypes' to chose from. Each archetype would have a set of skills that were easy to learn but take real personal skill to master. It would almost be a FPS type of game, only with fantasy elements. You might fight for magic items, and band together with others to take over realms. But there would be no 'grind'.
If Fury wasn't so terribly retarded on its programming/server side, it could have been the game you're talking about. It's basically, say, like WoW's battlegrounds - but that's all you can do.
Guild Wars does something similar - but only levels up to 20, but you can keep getting skills and attribute points through quests... I stopped playing way back when simply because my laptop overheated when I played the game. I stay away now because I have to download like, 5MB in between each zone because their updating system is retarded (for long-time-left players)
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
I stopped playing way back when simply because my laptop overheated when I played the game. I stay away now because I have to download like, 5MB in between each zone because their updating system is retarded (for long-time-left players)
Really? I used to have the same problem too; my laptop would just shut down randomly. What I did was to buy a laptop stand and turn down the settings a little and after that, my laptop stopped overheating.
But I still pop in from time to time (can never tear myself away from this game for some reason), so that's probably why I don't have to wait for such a long time to download each zone when I do log on.
The answer is really simple. ELLIMINATE LEVELS! Eve online does it. No grinding. If dev's broke away from levels there would be no grind to level. There may be grind to make money, but that seems to be a bit more acceptable than grinding to better your characters skill. If WoW or Aion had no levels but merely skill(or skill levels?) It would be a completely different ball park. No more getting ganked by lvl 50's or 80's for WoW.
Take away levels = way less grind.
MMO's are the ark of the gaming world. Let it take us in new directions.
Also, in response to removing grind - skill based systems are pretty great. You could even choose your "archetype" and gain three skills or so at the start...
I mean, the following is a bit sketchy, but hopefully you'll see what I mean. I really enjoy EvE's skill system, and would totally play a fantasy-based (or even sci-fi, were it more personal, and not space ship based) game with it.
You could create a warrior, archer, or mage, I suppose, at the start, which would give you access to one of these skills. I mean, I'm just putting random numbers out here with regards to ranged vs. melee combat, and mana requirements vs. arrows, and interruptions from spell casting vs. bow fire, etc. etc.
Anyway, I'll stop right here, since I don't really fancy the idea of creating my own spreadsheets with orcs, but you can see how even someone with a full 5 ranks in any one skill shouldn't be able to outright beat everyone else. The idea here is that having higher ranks in something should take more time/effort to acquire - in EvE you can train while offline, several skills at a time now, in fact. And some of these skills take days to learn - it makes for an interesting system, where really the only currencies in the game are time and money - if you've invested enough time into your character, you could have rank 5 everything, I suppose... although that would take a good year or so of never wasting a second of training time.
But hey, even a guy with full rank 5 everything - hopefully the developers have looked into the balancing here - shouldn't be able to kill everything by themself. My example above shows an 80% increase in the power of the melee strike skill at rank 5 - but if most people have, by default, 100 health points, two players will, if limited to those three abilities, always beat one player.
I have no idea where loot comes into this equation - perhaps different loot should do nothing but change look and utility?
Either way, in a raid situation, or any situation with many players, even a brand new player will be useful, if not the most useful they could be.
And so you end up with no "end-game", because the end-game is accessable to any player - if harder for for the more skilled-up players to kill whatever they're killing.
Bah, ponder on that for a while.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
The answer is really simple. ELLIMINATE LEVELS! Eve online does it. No grinding. If dev's broke away from levels there would be no grind to level. There may be grind to make money, but that seems to be a bit more acceptable than grinding to better your characters skill. If WoW or Aion had no levels but merely skill(or skill levels?) It would be a completely different ball park. No more getting ganked by lvl 50's or 80's for WoW. Take away levels = way less grind.
In EVE you grind for ISK by mining so you can buy ships.
The grind has been moved, not eliminated.
Your ships are your levels, and instead of "grinding" on Mobs that drop gold and loot, you grind on mines that drop materials.
Originally posted by Blazz My example above shows an 80% increase in the power of the melee strike skill at rank 5 - but if most people have, by default, 100 health points, two players will, if limited to those three abilities, always beat one player.
If we are talking about farming things to improve our character in whatever that mean (example wow)
1.you have to farm dailies quests every day to raise reputation with factions so you can buy better items or recipes .
2.Farming honour in battlegrounds to get better pvp items.
3.Farming daily dungeons and other dungeons to aquire better pve items necessary so you can start participate on raids.
4. Farming raids every week so u can get better pve higher lvl items.
If with grinding the OP is askign if there anyway developers to find a way to escape grinding/farming part?Well ofc there is.But it has to be a game made from the start to build on other values. Like reward vs risk, reward those who are skilled and not the farmers. It should be a game that focus on gameplay .
As for the farming during the lvling course isnt a problem cause if a game is nice one way or another you ll get yourself to the endgame part. The problem in my opinion in most games is AT the Endgame part and the farming thats starting there. Which above 1-4 points i mentioned conserning wow which i referred to as an example from my personal expirience the last 5 years im playing it.
Originally posted by Blazz My example above shows an 80% increase in the power of the melee strike skill at rank 5 - but if most people have, by default, 100 health points, two players will, if limited to those three abilities, always beat one player.
Kinda sounds like a zerg. Numbers always win.
Well, that would be if limited to those three abilities... but I suppose the idea here is that, well, numbers should generally win? More players fighting against a giant monster is generally going to have a better outcome than sending in only 10 level-capped players at a time due to a lack of players.
That said, though, that example was in a pvp situation with two players fighting one player, and limited to those skills. In the same regard, two of those rank 5 players would be hitting for 36 combined total, while three rank 1 players would only be hitting for 30.
I didn't even go into those other abilities... what about something like:
I mean, if you add just that one skill into the equation, you have the non-beserkers and the beserkers - if you let a beserker live, they will slaughter everything so easily... hell, I haven't even put healing in yet!
If you get the numbers of players, and tactics of different skills sorted, then we can start talking about zergability.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
Originally posted by Blazz My example above shows an 80% increase in the power of the melee strike skill at rank 5 - but if most people have, by default, 100 health points, two players will, if limited to those three abilities, always beat one player.
Kinda sounds like a zerg. Numbers always win.
And why is that a bad thing? Numbers *should* matter.
Anyone with a few brain cells to rub together or who has ever done any form of real world fighting (real or simulated; paint ball, martial arts, medieval combat, heck even a snowball fight) knows that numbers matter. Numbers don't generally garauntee a win (and shouldn't in game), but this "zerg" nonsense has always been nothing but the whiny elite complaining when their victims band together.
Back on topic: EVE does eliminate the grind....a skill based system with offline training IS one of the ways to get rid of it. I don't get better as a character for shooting belt rats or mission running, it may improve my RL skill at doing that activity, but my character only gains materially. Also, EVE does not force you to grind for ISK - many people do, but there are a myriad of ways to make money in game, many of which do not involve any grind.
Obviously a grind-less game would not be for everyone; I completely agree that a whole lot of players define themselves by the incremental metrics of the grind. Take away their ability to see little stat numbers incrementing upwards or a bubble bar filling and they would be lost. However, I think - just like with many other issues - there are more than enough people who would like to just *play* a persistent world for the interactions and enjoyment without needing the grind.
Originally posted by ericbelser Back on topic: EVE does eliminate the grind....a skill based system with offline training IS one of the ways to get rid of it. I don't get better as a character for shooting belt rats or mission running, it may improve my RL skill at doing that activity, but my character only gains materially. Also, EVE does not force you to grind for ISK - many people do, but there are a myriad of ways to make money in game, many of which do not involve any grind.
Every method of obtaining ISK in EVE will become a grind if you do it enough just like any system of leveling and skilling up. Mining, rat farming, mission running, trading even piracy will become a grind if you do it often and long enough. Fundementally it is no different than WoW or EQ.
This great community has plenty of knowledge of all things MMO-wise. It is always great to read the various and sundry conversations about the games we love, hate or love to hate (or hate to love). Through it all however there is one issue that seems to plague every gamer no matter what game they are playing and that issue is: Grinding. No matter how fun or "cool" or whatever a MMO is, developers still cannot seem to find a way to end the grinding that is so much a part of Massive Multiplaying. Are we as gamers always going to have to live with "grinding"? Is "grinding" absolutely necessary in an MMO? Can't developers come up with something different? Would we as players ever truly want to play a game where there was little to no "grinding"? What do you all say? How can developers bring grinding to an end? How can we as players help to make such a change? Do we as a community have any good ideas that should be heard concerning this issue? I'd really like to read what you all have to say about this. Here are a few of my ideas as to how to at least lessen the grind and bring about more fun for MMO gamers: Concept- Do any of you remember the Top Secret project that existed a few years ago? That attempt was to gather just ordinary players together to create a new MMO. I don't know what happened to it (other than the Leader of the project decided the genre the project was going to do was a Racing MMO; at which point I bowed out) but perhaps more kinds of project like that would help create games and in that creation time perhaps come up with more "out of the box" thinking that could potentially lead to either less grind or better gameplay that would mask the grind. Concept- In pen and paper RPGs (and yes I'm one of those old guys), you as the GM/DM could choose to give experience points for kills only if you wanted to, but you had options to that "grind". I gave points for kills of course, but I gave more points for storyline items I had written into my quests. I gave points for my players who best exemplified their character's personas, I gave points for creative ways to solve problems, I gave points for resolving conflict without that conflict turning to violence, and many other various things I gave points for as the game progressed. Perhaps more ideas like these could be incorporated into an MMO to lessen the grind. Concept- Getting rid of levels. Is that truly possible? It might be hard to imagine an MMO without true levels, character progression trees, skill trees, etc. How would you improve as a character? A good question to be sure, but the grinding begins BECAUSE you have to make the next level for the next uber power or 133t loot... maybe then the question should be: Should we get rid of uber powers and leet loot? I am not saying these ideas are even possible or may not even wanted by the MMO gamer population at all but I'd sure like all of you to weigh in on this issue. Since grinding is something almost all of us complain about then maybe as a community we can think of ways that developers could resolve this problem. Let me hear your thoughts!
I think grinding can be elminated by just what you say-have the developers go back to the pen and paper concept of RPG's.
Originally posted by Torik Or 'skill'. It really depends on your point of view and what you consider 'skill'
Unless you are fighting two imbeciles (quite possible, I admit), they will beat you unless you are OP. Two competent players will beat you. You might get one down, but the second will finish you.
Too many players want 'movie hero vs movie ninja' results.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Non trivialized content. 1. Quests that tell a story. 2. Combat where you need to think and pay attention in order to win. Chess is a non trivial game. Gopher bop is not. If youre going to develop a game, develop one that has game.
MMOs won't do that, because there is nothing 'Massively Multiplayer' about skill. Few have it.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
The GRIND will always be in MMOs in my opinion. The tricky part is making the GRIND less tedious, even fun, if only for moments of time.
And I think some risk of danger, death (penalty), should be considered to make the experience more challenging. Without the challenge, the risk of danger (losing something), any Joe Shmoe will run in guns blazing with not a care in the world.
Risk = Reward.
How much risk/reward is the juggling part the Devs need to figure out.
Comments
Quite honestly, the only real solution to this problem is to make a game so incredibly awesome that people just want to log in for the experience. This won't be happening for another 10-15 years. You have to make a game within a game, within a game, within a game, within a game. An MMORPG should be the ultimate game, an alternate reality. The only way any game has even gotten close to this point is by staying online for many years and adding more and more content, always thinking of something new the player can do.
I like the Ideas of the op. If they make less quests but ad bonus XP to those quests it would be sweet, as well as having multiple ways of completing a quests be it slaying everything or sneaking around or just talking your way out of something. Quest xp was introduced to try and disguise the grinding of mobs but in all reality its just the same thing but a little stupid story to go along with it.
We need quests that will make us think and aren't just go kill X creatures because they are attacking the village. Put unique puzzles in games make us ask every NPC in town to find quests or to find the right information. More exploring and less killing that is what will make a game not seem as grindy.
Well, I completely agree with you on this point. I would have dove into the achievements if I could have leveled my characters by doing them.
You are absolutely right that having a variety of ways to level is a superior design.
A system which had separate xp for PvE, PvP, crafting, and 'exploring' would be a big draw of many different types of players.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Excellent point WSIMike, excellent point.
I really like this insight Excalaber, perhaps therein lies a solution to at least masking the grind and making it more fun? Still an idea worth looking into in my opinion.
PvP is my solution to grinding.
The thing about PvP is that every once in a while, you meet someone with equal skills and equipment and the fights can be really entertaining. Especially if the game you're playing has a lot of move and counter moves like WoW. Heal versus rogue kick, sheep versus spell reflect and so on.
I've never met a mob that can kick my arse as thoroughly as another human.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
People have different definitions of grind, and what might seem to be grind might not be for another person. Case in point; there are people in other MMORPG forums who actually want a system in which there are less quests and more mob killing, because this means that it is less likely for a party member to leave because they have completed a quest. Which makes sense really, though I have to admit that I would not like that kind of system at all, because I find it boring to be doing the same thing over and over again. However, what I like, some people would consider "Quest Grind". And this is one prime example of how an opinion differs.
Hence, though the possibility of completely eliminating grind is impossible, there is a chance of lessening that feeling of repetition. One way is a good storyline; complete with missions, in which a person is so involved in the storyline that he or she does not even feel the grind. I feel that Guild Wars is particularly successful in that, because it's mainly about reaching a place, and you have to kill mobs to reach that place; it gives one a sense of purpose. Of course, there is always title grind as well (which, sad to say, Guild Wars is also good at) but I tend to not bother with that at all. It is good that such things are optional, and that you don't actually have to do it if you don't want to.
Main characters:
Jinn Gone Quiet (Guild Wars)
Princess Pudding (Guild Wars)
If Fury wasn't so terribly retarded on its programming/server side, it could have been the game you're talking about. It's basically, say, like WoW's battlegrounds - but that's all you can do.
Guild Wars does something similar - but only levels up to 20, but you can keep getting skills and attribute points through quests... I stopped playing way back when simply because my laptop overheated when I played the game. I stay away now because I have to download like, 5MB in between each zone because their updating system is retarded (for long-time-left players)
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
You all need to learn to spell.
I stopped playing way back when simply because my laptop overheated when I played the game. I stay away now because I have to download like, 5MB in between each zone because their updating system is retarded (for long-time-left players)
Really? I used to have the same problem too; my laptop would just shut down randomly. What I did was to buy a laptop stand and turn down the settings a little and after that, my laptop stopped overheating.
But I still pop in from time to time (can never tear myself away from this game for some reason), so that's probably why I don't have to wait for such a long time to download each zone when I do log on.
Main characters:
Jinn Gone Quiet (Guild Wars)
Princess Pudding (Guild Wars)
The answer is really simple. ELLIMINATE LEVELS! Eve online does it. No grinding. If dev's broke away from levels there would be no grind to level. There may be grind to make money, but that seems to be a bit more acceptable than grinding to better your characters skill. If WoW or Aion had no levels but merely skill(or skill levels?) It would be a completely different ball park. No more getting ganked by lvl 50's or 80's for WoW.
Take away levels = way less grind.
MMO's are the ark of the gaming world. Let it take us in new directions.
Also, in response to removing grind - skill based systems are pretty great. You could even choose your "archetype" and gain three skills or so at the start...
I mean, the following is a bit sketchy, but hopefully you'll see what I mean. I really enjoy EvE's skill system, and would totally play a fantasy-based (or even sci-fi, were it more personal, and not space ship based) game with it.
[SkillName] - [Rank 1] - [Rank 2] - [Rank 3] - [Rank 4] - [Rank 5]
Melee Strike - 10dmg - 12dmg - 14dmg - 16dmg - 18dmg
Ranged Shot - 8dmg - 9dmg - 10dmg - 11dmg - 13dmg
Spell Bolt - 10dmg - 11dmg - 12dmg - 13dmg - 15dmg
You could create a warrior, archer, or mage, I suppose, at the start, which would give you access to one of these skills. I mean, I'm just putting random numbers out here with regards to ranged vs. melee combat, and mana requirements vs. arrows, and interruptions from spell casting vs. bow fire, etc. etc.
Anyway, I'll stop right here, since I don't really fancy the idea of creating my own spreadsheets with orcs, but you can see how even someone with a full 5 ranks in any one skill shouldn't be able to outright beat everyone else. The idea here is that having higher ranks in something should take more time/effort to acquire - in EvE you can train while offline, several skills at a time now, in fact. And some of these skills take days to learn - it makes for an interesting system, where really the only currencies in the game are time and money - if you've invested enough time into your character, you could have rank 5 everything, I suppose... although that would take a good year or so of never wasting a second of training time.
But hey, even a guy with full rank 5 everything - hopefully the developers have looked into the balancing here - shouldn't be able to kill everything by themself. My example above shows an 80% increase in the power of the melee strike skill at rank 5 - but if most people have, by default, 100 health points, two players will, if limited to those three abilities, always beat one player.
I have no idea where loot comes into this equation - perhaps different loot should do nothing but change look and utility?
Either way, in a raid situation, or any situation with many players, even a brand new player will be useful, if not the most useful they could be.
And so you end up with no "end-game", because the end-game is accessable to any player - if harder for for the more skilled-up players to kill whatever they're killing.
Bah, ponder on that for a while.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
You all need to learn to spell.
In EVE you grind for ISK by mining so you can buy ships.
The grind has been moved, not eliminated.
Your ships are your levels, and instead of "grinding" on Mobs that drop gold and loot, you grind on mines that drop materials.
Kinda sounds like a zerg. Numbers always win.
If we are talking about farming things to improve our character in whatever that mean (example wow)
1.you have to farm dailies quests every day to raise reputation with factions so you can buy better items or recipes .
2.Farming honour in battlegrounds to get better pvp items.
3.Farming daily dungeons and other dungeons to aquire better pve items necessary so you can start participate on raids.
4. Farming raids every week so u can get better pve higher lvl items.
If with grinding the OP is askign if there anyway developers to find a way to escape grinding/farming part?Well ofc there is.But it has to be a game made from the start to build on other values. Like reward vs risk, reward those who are skilled and not the farmers. It should be a game that focus on gameplay .
As for the farming during the lvling course isnt a problem cause if a game is nice one way or another you ll get yourself to the endgame part. The problem in my opinion in most games is AT the Endgame part and the farming thats starting there. Which above 1-4 points i mentioned conserning wow which i referred to as an example from my personal expirience the last 5 years im playing it.
Kinda sounds like a zerg. Numbers always win.
Well, that would be if limited to those three abilities... but I suppose the idea here is that, well, numbers should generally win? More players fighting against a giant monster is generally going to have a better outcome than sending in only 10 level-capped players at a time due to a lack of players.
That said, though, that example was in a pvp situation with two players fighting one player, and limited to those skills. In the same regard, two of those rank 5 players would be hitting for 36 combined total, while three rank 1 players would only be hitting for 30.
I didn't even go into those other abilities... what about something like:
Beserker - +2 damage given/taken - +4 dmg g/t - +6 dmg g/t - +8 dmg g/t - +10 dmg g/t
I mean, if you add just that one skill into the equation, you have the non-beserkers and the beserkers - if you let a beserker live, they will slaughter everything so easily... hell, I haven't even put healing in yet!
If you get the numbers of players, and tactics of different skills sorted, then we can start talking about zergability.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
You all need to learn to spell.
Kinda sounds like a zerg. Numbers always win.
And why is that a bad thing? Numbers *should* matter.
Anyone with a few brain cells to rub together or who has ever done any form of real world fighting (real or simulated; paint ball, martial arts, medieval combat, heck even a snowball fight) knows that numbers matter. Numbers don't generally garauntee a win (and shouldn't in game), but this "zerg" nonsense has always been nothing but the whiny elite complaining when their victims band together.
Back on topic: EVE does eliminate the grind....a skill based system with offline training IS one of the ways to get rid of it. I don't get better as a character for shooting belt rats or mission running, it may improve my RL skill at doing that activity, but my character only gains materially. Also, EVE does not force you to grind for ISK - many people do, but there are a myriad of ways to make money in game, many of which do not involve any grind.
Obviously a grind-less game would not be for everyone; I completely agree that a whole lot of players define themselves by the incremental metrics of the grind. Take away their ability to see little stat numbers incrementing upwards or a bubble bar filling and they would be lost. However, I think - just like with many other issues - there are more than enough people who would like to just *play* a persistent world for the interactions and enjoyment without needing the grind.
Every method of obtaining ISK in EVE will become a grind if you do it enough just like any system of leveling and skilling up. Mining, rat farming, mission running, trading even piracy will become a grind if you do it often and long enough. Fundementally it is no different than WoW or EQ.
If one can beat two - that's called imbalance.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I think grinding can be elminated by just what you say-have the developers go back to the pen and paper concept of RPG's.
If one can beat two - that's called imbalance.
Or 'skill'.
It really depends on your point of view and what you consider 'skill'
Non trivialized content.
1. Quests that tell a story.
2. Combat where you need to think and pay attention in order to win.
Chess is a non trivial game. Gopher bop is not. If youre going to develop a game, develop one that has game.
Unless you are fighting two imbeciles (quite possible, I admit), they will beat you unless you are OP. Two competent players will beat you. You might get one down, but the second will finish you.
Too many players want 'movie hero vs movie ninja' results.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
MMOs won't do that, because there is nothing 'Massively Multiplayer' about skill. Few have it.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
The GRIND will always be in MMOs in my opinion. The tricky part is making the GRIND less tedious, even fun, if only for moments of time.
And I think some risk of danger, death (penalty), should be considered to make the experience more challenging. Without the challenge, the risk of danger (losing something), any Joe Shmoe will run in guns blazing with not a care in the world.
Risk = Reward.
How much risk/reward is the juggling part the Devs need to figure out.