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Removing Healers from MMORPG: Good or bad?
Jairoe03
Member Posts: 732
To begin, this thread is just theory and speculation only (with a little bit of fun, hopefully!). The general situation I'm presenting within an MMORPG in general is:
How would a game be impacted by removing Healers from an MMORPG completely? Good or bad?
NOTE: I'm thinking Healers as a class mainly
Personally, I think it'll create dynamics normally not found in games if Healers were eliminated with more emphasis on surviving rather than making up the damage. I can imagine a game working fairly well with absolutely no Healer class but with very limited healing abilities (potions or bandaids etc.). Your health all of a sudden becomes a very important aspect of the game and I'm sure people will be finding ways to mitigate damage while still trying to function within the roles they specialize in. I think the game would be unconventional in terms of balancing out different ability sets/classes, but perhaps it could make it easier as well since we are also removing a dynamic that is usually accounted for.
I can also see more emphasis on different types of group tactics used, some immediate thoughts come to mind such as a stout Warrior helping a Mage friend by helping shield and taking damage for him while the Mage pelts a raid boss with fireballs and having to spread damage around more evenly to keep from anyone dying during an encounter maybe by a group effort of kiting while dodging huge blizzards (and perhaps utilizing a more complex aggro system). These are just some of the thoughts that come to mind when I think of it.
What about your thoughts if any? Good or bad, should there be a game that takes a Healer position completely out of the picture.
Comments
The focus on games is already moving towards dps.
If you remove healing as a factor, dps will become both the begining and ending. It will become the sole dertermining factor for group compostition and game balance.
Personally, I do not wish to see my selection of tactics limited by removing healing as an option. I also do not whish to see this ability uniformly distrubuted to all characters. This would have nearly the same effect. With all characters possessing minimal healing, no one will view themselves as a healer and useit only as a self preservation tool.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
In a fantasy MMO - probably not. In a SCI-FI, modern warfare, or historically accurate MMO - yes.
Well having any class in a PVP game,witch is what it seems most players want now a days is a waste of time.A Healer role is designed to work great in PVE environments,once you try to tke the same formulas and bring them to PVP,you completely change the role of the class.
A Healer SHOULD be a support role to the party,instead in PVP games ,they are often times the most powerful PVP player,witch is a total joke,a Healer SHOULD NEVER be able to beat anyone in PVP.The Healer should be the lowest form of damage and only have mediocre armor,what the healer offers from support is buffs/enfeeebs and the massive heals.
The problem is that as soon as you bring the lame PVP idea into MMORPG's,EVERYONE wants their class to be the most overpowering,it really is quite ridiculous,that they change the class from it's PROPER design.Players are getting so ridiculous,now a days they want to be able to wield ANY weapon and wear ANY armor as a Healer,you might as well not even have classes any more,if they are going to break the mold.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Why remove? they are there for people to choose...if you dont wanna play a healer dont...but some people do..its a choice
If they remove healers then people wont have a choice
QFT
Healers is one of the reasons some people duo or trio whatever to make their journey easier, if they would be removed this would be a loss on grouping.
The problem with keeping healers in games is that only a small percentage wish to play them. That means group progression is slowed with the necessity to find a healer (or tank for that matter) in order to get the 5 or 6 people you need. Removing the reliance of the holy trinity, or find an alternative, makes group forming quicker and therefore a more enjoyable experience. How many times do you see in chat "LF2M - need tank and healer". Lets do a way with them, or find an alternative, such as mercs or hirelings so people don't waste an hour looking for them.
Well, why not?
I guess answering a question with a question is usually not good, so I'll be more specific to what I mean.
Are we so bound to the traditional Healer, DPS and Tank trinity to think outside of the box? Sure if you remove Healer, you'll be left with DPS and Tank in regards to the trinity, but what if there wasn't any specific DPS or Tank either? Just play style, like this one plays like a rogue using quick strikes and evasion to mitigate himself, this warrior is heavily protected with armor and uses much heavier physical strikes, a sorcerer relies on debuffing his foes into submission as well as protecting him/herself.
What truly would it mean in terms of the game itself (mainly in terms of combat)? Could new dynamics be introduced or would this feel like a missing link that is needed in the game? There is some truth between being left with just "DPS" in terms of combat, but if the focus is on other aspects of combat outside of this trinity box many of us may be stuck in, could there be more introduced (and explore) in the realm of combat (even in fantasy or maybe I should say especially in fantasy since its the most common genre of MMORPG) or have the companies already tried it all? Are there more ways than just 1 to utilize DPS? Does it all really have to be dps? What if a dynamic was introduced where characters would be affected if they were low on mana/stamina (whatever spent to utilize abilities) and introduced another way of "winning" in combat outside of just depleting a health bar? Could anything like these possibly work and is there more within the industry that could be tried?
The problem with eliminating healers, nowadays, is that you'll eliminate the last truly "Support" class, thus breaking the gamer psychology even more. People rely on healers/buffers/support to be there for them and metaphorically "watch their back". Without them, it's going to be one gigantic "damge dealt" contest.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
And I merely said Healers, never said anything about removing buffs or "Buffers". What about debuffs and where do they fall? Are you thinking purely in terms of a giant raid or in PvP as well? Again, there's more than 1 dynamic within an MMORPG (usually 2 or maybe 3 depending on the game), but is there more ways to provide a combatic encounter outside of this perceived huge damage dealing contest? Could it be something else?
I think Tanking/DPS/Healing are great and need no further refinement in traditional fantasy-based MMO's. The only way I would deviate from this system would be in MMO's which are more geared towards solo play such as Horror (where you are often alone) or Westerns (where the best Ol' Doc can do is say, "Well, we'll have to wait and see.")
Nothing wrong with healers; they are sort of cool, like the "Elrond" factor in Tolkien's works; the guy you stop by to see for lore and healing.
yeah lets dumb the games down even more, everyone just DPS!
if anything they should do like City of Heroes/Villains where you have an OPTIONAL healing abilities that any class can choose. loved playing my healer mastermind.
Initially, I was going to say Good, but now I say bad. Removing the Healer is like removing the DPS in regards to playstyles. So the first reason it's a bad idea, is because it removes a playstyle people actually like. The second reason it's a bad idea is because when you remove a playstyle, you also reduce the amount of strategy needed.
But I do like the idea, because healing is way too easy in MMO's, where each encounter is just one complex math problem:
Boss Damage + Boss Mitigaton - Tank mitigation - Rate of DPS - Heals per second
If Boss Damage and Mitigation is < Tank Mitigation - DPS - and HPS , then you win the fight.
It's a very basic and boring strategy. Not as fun as a game like Risen, where each fight is a challenge and could be your death if you slip up.
I think if you made a game without a healing class, Monk, Priest you would really need every toon to be self healing in some form of another. Raids would be over before they started. Tanks would have to hold arggo 100 % of the time and if not your back line DPS would not last very long and you would have alot of wipes. One thing Guildwars does is have a Dual spec as in a Tank-Monk but you really can't do much self healing with that build. I don't know if you can really do a MMO without some healing class to keep everyone on there feet. As far as getting groups together that has always been a problem finding a healer. Many do not like the stress of getting yelled at when others die or how hard it is to lvl up a healing priest, monk. Maybe someday a MMo will come out with a answer to that maybe a healing npc that comes with you all the time.
Spankthetoad
Oh don't get me wrong, never said anything was wrong with healers, this is just a big what if scenario and whether or not people people see it working or would this be breaking a forbidden unspoken law within the MMO realm. The responses are interesting
Healer classes are expected, just like dps and defensive classes are. They are integral to the definition of an MMO.
Besides, I personally know of MMO players who enjoy playing a healer above all others. I personally prefer playing a caster dps class over any others.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
And I merely said Healers, never said anything about removing buffs or "Buffers". What about debuffs and where do they fall? Are you thinking purely in terms of a giant raid or in PvP as well? Again, there's more than 1 dynamic within an MMORPG (usually 2 or maybe 3 depending on the game), but is there more ways to provide a combatic encounter outside of this perceived huge damage dealing contest? Could it be something else?
The only way to do this from my point-of-view is to make the game ultra-realistic.
Meaning:
1 Shot can kill you. If you get hit hard in the torso or head, you're dead on that first hit. Get hit in the extremeties, you'll likely still die from bleeding to death, but if you're life is spared and a Medic found fast enough, maybe you can become an amputee.
So the game isn't about healing anymore, or dealing damage. It's all about strategically overcoming your enemies defenses to land that killing blow. So the game would be a FPS, where armor actually saves your life, depending on the type"
ie. Plate will protect you against slashings, but not piercing or crushing.
You'd also have mechanics to dodge, combat roll away, sprint, block, and parry.
So you and your opponent will be dancing around, looking for an opening the majority of the time, instead of actually taking off health. It's a different way to do things, but has it's own problems. Suppose 2 really great players face off against each other, that could be a fight no one wins. However, that could be a good thing too. Becoming unkillable is a good achievement to strive for, and relies on player skill.
Oh, minor cuts and injuries could be treated with bandages.
I want both options.
I like having tanks and healers in some games. And since a lot of people enjoy playing those roles (I ussually tank, my wife heals), it doesn't make sense for MMOs in general to move away from the Holy Trinity.
Then again, there are times I really want to play a pure hack and slash type of MMO. A game which requires no healers or tanks at all. And for some game settings, that makes sense.
What I don't like is seeing game developers fall back on the Holy Trinity of tank/healer/dps in game settings where those roles simply don't make sense. Take the latest news on STO...as someone whose always loved Star Trek, I was looking forward to a game about exploration, not WoW in Spaceships. Oh, don't get me wrong, I'll give it a try, and who knows, maybe I'll really like what they've done. But, imho, we need more games that don't rely on the Holy Trinity.
Please don't. Healing is the most interactive role in the healing trinity setup. Wether one likes it or not remains to be seen, but no one can dispute that amongst a typical tank-dps-heal setup, healing is the one role that is going to vary the most within even identical senarios.
Examine how games are played. Health bar, ability bar. Health being your defense, ability being your offense. The caveat we embrace being that we want to reduce someone else's health to 0, while keeping our own above 0. Also, we cannot use anything left in an ability pool once our health pool is depleted, so we embrace health as the dominant of the two.
From this concept all other concepts are derived. Healing is a defensive use of ability. Buffing is a 'depth' use of ability. Damage is an offensive use of 'ability'. Health is dominant, but passive. You can invent new concepts revolving around this play between health and ability... control (stun/snare/etc) and endless others. This is somewhat the platform of how we embrace our games as being.
If you remove *any* role from this mechanic, ALL OTHER ROLES will become more important. Your gameplay will change.
If you want to examine how precisely a non-healing encounter might function: reference RoS in WoW's BT. It meets your criteria exactly.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
Well, in a group...no. It's not a choice. You have to have a healer or your tank dies in a couple of minutes. A game that has healers will be balanced so that a group *needs* healers--or else the healers will just stand around and never get group invites. Rebalancing so that groups don't need healers effectively removes healers from the game, regardless of whether there is technically still a healer class for people to select. Better to remove it so that new players don't accidentally pick the class nobody wants along.
Ok I have to get in on this one. Why do you believe "a Healer SHOULD NEVER be able to beat anyone in PVP."? In my oppinion a healer should be able to beat any class and any class should be able to beat a healer. It should come down to a few things, luck, skill, and maybe gear (hopefully to a lesser extent). A healer shouldn't have the best damage I agree but should be able to outlast an attacker to win.
Back in early EQ my cleric could win fights vs. many different classes, that changed very quickly but I think they had a great balance back then (except for rogues who always sucked). A fight I won usually would have me out of mana and almost dead. I had to use it all to outlast the onslaught. And what is it with healers should "only have mediocre armor"? You talk about "PROPER design" but healers (clerics) in almost every fantasy game/setting have almost always equiped plate armor and used hammers/maces and large sheilds. Are you thinking WoW and mage type priests in cloth armor is the "PROPER design"? I think the traditional and proper healer design is heavy armor. So nobody is breaking any molds here, the mold is like 40 years old and it wears a lot of armor.
As for the OP it seems to me many people think that since they don't like healing that nobody does and the people that do play healers only do so for reasons that don't have much to do with fun. Well some people actually really like playing healers I am one of them. If a fantasy mmo came out without a healing class I wouldn't play it.
Well, in a group...no. It's not a choice. You have to have a healer or your tank dies in a couple of minutes. A game that has healers will be balanced so that a group *needs* healers--or else the healers will just stand around and never get group invites. Rebalancing so that groups don't need healers effectively removes healers from the game, regardless of whether there is technically still a healer class for people to select. Better to remove it so that new players don't accidentally pick the class nobody wants along.
That's not true. I've done plenty of things as a group in DAoC and DDO without a healer. A healer makes every encounter easier, and faster, but because of my knowledge of how classes mesh with each other, covering each others weaknesses, I'm able to build any random group and go do group stuff.
Now maybe not some of WoW's 5 mans and definitely not the raids, but I personally feel those are broken mechanics anyways. When you require that such and such class is needed to complete an encounter, you elevate that class above all others, and if there's a shortage of that class, people get fustrated and some even roll that class to fill the shortage later.
In my opinion, no particular class should be required to complete any encounter, BUT an optimal group should be able to beat it far easier and faster. Persnonally, I prefer to fill a group with the first people who respond, and then figure out how to win with what I have. You'd be surprised at how far you can get and how exciting using different tactics and strategies with the groups you end up with.
Or people will be encouraged to group with each other to beat the content and work STRATEGICALLY instead of relying on a healer to keep their health up all the time.
I really don't see how there can be no healer in a fantsay MMO, lore-wise and gameplay wise; they are bound to exist in one way or another.
Sci-fi games in the other hand...
Yes, lets turn it all into a zerg fest. Joy=( Like others said, the ONLY ways to remove the healer is to make combat like an FPS, 1 shot or a couple of shots and you're dead. Or, rely on pots and self healing, which makes it every man for himself, which doesn't promote group play as much. Then its just all DPS and slamming buttons and even less strategy.
Sorry, but if you want an FPS, we have PLENTY of them. They have strategy too, but its different. Once MMO combat turns into FPS combat, remind me again why I'm playing a MMO, when I can just play the online component of every FPS out there for free? Hell, even they have medics now, so the whole notion is just stupid talk.
I'd rather see no dedicated DPS classes. That would get rid of a lot of pew pew kiddies and improve the community.
A lot of people like playing healers.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2