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(EQ the first succesful Theme Park MMO) How did EQ handle all the Sandbox Fanboism hatred when it ca
tro44_1
Member Posts: 1,819
1)How did EQ manage to get Sandbox to switch over to Theme Park mmos, back in the day?
2) Was EQ hated on by Sandbox fans, like they currently do now when it comes to WoW?
3) What do you think made the MMORPG industry convert over into Theme Park style, rather then sticking with the traditional Snadbox gaming, that many Old School MMO players enjoyed soo much?
I was wondering. How did EQ manage to be soo succesful as a more Theme Park oriented MMO, around the time that Sandbox Mmos were dominate? Anybod have an idea as to what unfolded during those ages?
Comments
Most people generally consider World of Warcraft to be the start of the themepark trend. EQ, while on a leveling treadmill, still gave the player a ton of freedom in how and where he or she wanted to advance.
That's just what I've always thought anyway.
When I think of a themepark game, I think of quest based leveling, hand holding you to the next area, the majority of your experience and gear derived from the quest rewards.
That certainly does not describe early EQ, what was ironic about that game was there were hardly any quests.
What people loved about the game was it was so community oriented, by force... and of course, it was the first real 3D dungeons and dragon type of massive online game.
But if it had lvls, doesnt that make it Theme Park?
Not necessarily. Fallen earth has lvls but its a very sandboxy game.
I don't really consider EQ a "themepark" mmo. However I was among the people that played during the early days as a UO fanboy. I played a good bit of EQ up to Kunark, I hated every single second of it, due to the grueling leveling treadmill. There were definitely UO fans that scoffed at the thought of EQ but it was mainly due to EQ's focus on PVE. Lots of EQ fans hated UO for the relentless PKing, full loot, among other reasons etc.
The arguements then were about carebear vs. pvpers. Leveling tread mills versus skilling up. Not much different than it is now except people were a bit more accepting of other peoples play styles and went on about their business. Now people go out of their way to insult others for liking to play a certain way. Everyone has an agenda these days it seems and that is to get their opinion out as if it were fact and call everyone else a moron.
There was no "sandbox fanboism or hate" back when these games "came out" they were the first of their kind...People were not thinking in those terms yet. There where only 3 MMO's at the time so there wasn't this "sandbox games vs themepark" thinking going on yet. That thinking didn't evolve for a couple of years.
Most of the were like "wow these are cool games"
We were much more forgiving in those days and were just interested in playing a good game and whined a LOT less about them.
The reason MMO's followed the EQ track? Well IMHO, it had to do with EQ beating the dog snot out of UO and the fact that EQ was based on P&P D&D game mechanics which a lot of RPGers can easily relate to. The 10 years of clones that followed are really a show of a lack of risk taking and creativity on the part of almost all of these games.
1. That is really simple what features could live with and what you could live without. I know many people that level UO because it forced pvp down your throat. Some left because they wanted races. Some left because they wanted 3d. Some like me came back because I didn't like the bubble EQ class put me in. Overall EQ was a simple game to play. It played basically like a single player rpg so it was very familiar to those that have played rpg.
2. There was not as much nerd rage back then. Most, not all, the people I ever got to know back then were mature adults. Today there are a lot of kids and adult children playing mmo some mature but a lot not so much.
3. Theme parks are easier to design and run. Balancing several classes is so much easier then balancing hundreds of different skill combinations.
EQ was successful then just like WoW is successful now. They simplified game play, told players their roles via classes, told them where to go via levels. UO learning curve was not easy. Luckily I had real life friends that played and showed me the ropes.
I know the EQ developers said they based EQ of pnp d&d but I never bought into this statement. The only think that EQ and pnp d&d share is levels and classes. I see more single player rpgs in EQ that pnp d&d.
I've played EQ, SWG (at release and for a short time after they fucked it up), Horizons (now Istaria:CotG), WoW, EQII (trial only), and DAoC (still my sentimental favorite). All of them were "sandbox" to a point. You really need to define what you meand by "sandbox" and "themepark". If by sandbox you mean that the devs build a virtual world, sprinkle in some mobs, and turn you loose, then I would say none of them are sandbox (although SWG came close). All those games you COULD go almost anywhere and play, you just wouldn't get very far in some areas without a certain skill set (SWG included). While I too would classify games like WoW and EQ as "themepark", they really aren't totally linear (although WoW seems to be going in that direction somewhat).
Most of these games start to feel linear when the community with its power levelers and number crunchers forget to enjoy the journey, pick the path of least resistance, and race to the endgame. Then, of course, the rest of the community follows them trying to "keep up with the Jones's", and the game takes on a linear feel. While there are several different ways to level your character, there is only one RIGHT way, making a potentially rich and diverse game into a linear themepark. This can happen in skill based systems too (so I've heard). I didn't see it much in SWG (until Jedi became a playable class - first big dev mistake in that game imo), but I've heard in DFO, everyone realized that magic was far superior to swords and bows, so everyone took that route and ignored mundane fighting abilities. A true sandbox game became linear. Part of that is that the devs didn't understand how to balance the skills, but a big part of it is players (and prolly in DFO's case, guilds) are lazy. Instead of trying to figure out how to use some skills to offset or negate others, most players will go for the biggest fireball they can get in the shortest amount of time. Its not completely the players fault. After all, winning is alot more fun than losing, especially in a free for all pvp environment, so getting that big fireball in as many of your guildmates' hands before the neighboring guild had them is a not altogether bad strategy, but it can and did get boring for a lot of people.
Lastly, while I'm not an mmo history buff, I did start playing EQ around a year or so after release (may have been a little earlier, it was after the first expansion, but couple of months before the Velious expansion), and IT was the dominant MMO. While UO prolly had a higher percentage of the MMO subs at that time than true sandbox MMO's have now, I don't think there was ever a time when sandbox MMO's dominated the genre. Plus, while it feels weird to call EQ "easymode" (especially compared to today's MMO's) it prolly was that when compared to games like UO (it is always easier, or at least less frustrating, to level a character when you don't have to worry about some other player sneaking up behind you to cut off your arse), which would explain how it could gather more subs that UO.
1) It didn't really.
2) No. EQ was a phenomenon.
3) The desire to bring in the non-gaming public and the assumption that they were so helpless or stupid that they had to be led by the hand.
EQ was not really a themepark; EQ was a world. Being a world, filled with content, and the right mix of risk and reward, couple with complete freedom to make decisions, is what made EQ great.
In EQ, you got slapped down real fast (with a stinging death penalty) if you played stupidly, therefore you did not play stupidly. The caution players exercised gave more atmosphere and mystery to dangerous zones.
What he said.
Forums like these didn't even exist to argue in. I played EQ for a SHORT period of time. I like Asheron's Call much better and that was my game for a long long time.
No one thought to go some place and complain about it back then that I am aware of. The shit was so new all everyone did was PLAY the game. There wasn't even sites dedicated to the games for information that I was aware of. I was having such a blast playing the game it didn't even occur to me.
There weren't even quest logs or online walk-through's. People either figured it out on there own or had someone tell them what to do. You WROTE down what the NPC's said and tried to figure out where they were telling you to go.
These terms of sandbox and theme park didn't exist back then along with A LOT of the acronyms used today in mmo's.
Another big mistake is people believing you need millions of people for a game to be a success. AC didn't have a lot of people playing the in today's standards. BUT the game always felt more populated and has lasted over 10 years.
But that is another topic.
So, continue your argument over made up words to try and work your agenda...
First off EQ1 was no theme park MMO so the premise of the original post is wrong..
If you ever played EQ1 you'd know better. From it's original release until Luclin EQ1 was one of the toughest unforgiving games created. Pre Luclin you could count on dying nightly from exploring. Corpse runs with no gear, high level mobs that wandered onto paths, trains, long arduous travel. areas that meant certain death unless you were very smart. Faction cities where you were KOS (Kill on site).
Finally it had a raid game that actually required strategy. Even after POP's release it was no walk in the park.
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
1) It didn't really.
2) No. EQ was a phenomenon.
3) The desire to bring in the non-gaming public and the assumption that they were so helpless or stupid that they had to be led by the hand.
EQ was not really a themepark; EQ was a world. Being a world, filled with content, and the right mix of risk and reward, couple with complete freedom to make decisions, is what made EQ great.
In EQ, you got slapped down real fast (with a stinging death penalty) if you played stupidly, therefore you did not play stupidly. The caution players exercised gave more atmosphere and mystery to dangerous zones.
I don't always agree with pencilrick, but when I do, I've been drinking Dos Equis XX. Stay thirsty my friends.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I think you need quest to be a theme park. EQ barely had any quest, and you certianly didn't do them to level up. There were a few you had to do, but I'm talking less than 5 in 60 levels.
Was it linear? Of course, but far less linear than what we have today.
The arguemnt back in 2001-2002 was how EQ was losing touch with its customers, because they started to focus in on the top 10% hardcore players who wanted insane gear. For some reason, every expansion they would cater to these raiders, and give the rest of the community the bird.
This is how DAoC attracted EQ players. There was no raiding in DAoC, and it was completely awesome. Everyone was on an even playing field. Well, all good things must come to an end, and DAoC went the route of EQ. Adding raids, and overpowered abilities and gear.
Then came WoW, and crushed DAoC and EQ. Personally, I blame EQ for not listening to their player base. WoW took what many players back then asked for, and made a game to cater to them. If EQ had listened to all the disgruntled fans, instead of ignoring them and calling them whiners I truly believe WoW would not be where it is today. Too bad, because WoW is nothing compared to what EQ was before they went raid crazy.
Not until WoW and EVE came out did you start to hear things like sandbox and theme park.
It's not assumption though.
Scientific usability studies uncover the specific ways players fail to enjoy games, and allow developers to improve the game's usability to enhance the players' knowledge and enjoyment of the game (whose effectiveness is proven or disproven in subsequent usability studies.) It allows players to focus on the important or fun decisions, instead of wasting time trying to figure out how to do what they want.
You would make fewer extremist statements if you attended a few usability studies (one before to discern usability flaws, and one after the changes.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
1: what sand box games were there other than UO at the time? there was the realm a year before UO and... help me out here.
eq was new in 99, there wasn't a game like it really at the time, 3d, rpg, and online, so trying to claim it caused a "switch" when there wasn't anything else like it was odd to me.
2: heck no, unlike now were people can spew nonsense about how crappy a game is and move to another, there wasn't a lot of games out there like eq and even UO vets wanted to check it out. people hate wow because it caused companies to make games that do nothing new or push new ideas since they want to be the next WoW, no one hated EQ quite like that.
3: someone explain this for me, what the heck is "traditional sandbox" gaming? there was just UO and then EQ, which has its roots in diku MUDs, there wasn't traditional anything till at least 3 years after eq, maybe even starting with WoW.
the industry barely looked at sandbox games after Eq because class based pve was easier to balance and fix, also the number of fans of skill based games was smaller. plus honestly what game other than UO did we have till swg that was skill based?
pvp tends to turn off a lot of people anyway, and UO didn't have any elves in it, so Eq grew pretty fast.
seriously when were sandbox games ever dominate? all i remember before EQ came out was UO and i never could stand UOs graphics enough to play it.
what do you mean "mere"? eq back in the day was pretty dang epic and fun, it still is for a lot of people. EQ had way more immersion simply by being 3d and first person, it was like being in the world.
you need to go back and look up the timeline for the first mmos, "themepark" mmos have always been dominate, eq,AC1,AO,Daoc
of course i'm not sure what a "themepark" game is to you, early games had a lot of different ways of doing things that don't fit either side of your dictomatry
AC1 is not a themepark. Do not put AC1 in that category.
Anyone who thinks that the "sandbox/themepark" debate even existed when EQ came out is either hopelessly out of touch with history (and/or reality), or they are so focused on trying to argue against "themepark" games that they have essentially discarded with facts and have opted to rely mainly on opinions.
So which is it? Is the OP fracking insane, or just plain ignorant? The world may never know. Or care.
EQ a themepark is a stretch of the imagination.
Good illustration though of how things change.
Ken
www.ActionMMORPG.com
One man, a small pile of money, and the screwball idea of a DIY Indie MMORPG? Yep, that's him. ~sigh~
QFT, oh how quickly the memory and mentallity of certain MMO gamers have degrading in as little as 10-12years. And how quickly this genre has changed.
as others have said EQ wasn't a themepark MMO, tho anymore there is pretty much only 2 catagories when people decide to "label" an mmo. everQUEST's name is very deceptive considering there was almost no quests in the game at all. and there was no hand holding, you went out and explored finding your own way through the game. there wasn't some npc saying "hey go take this food ration to so and so in the next town wich is south on the road, go left at the fork then make a right at the T you can't miss it".
Kinda like when you're at a real life Themepark and you see the sign when you enter the place saying "you are here" and everything is mapped out for you.
I was there in EQ from day-1 and I never got any bad vibes or anything of the sort. It is only now that we get this bullshit.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Did you play it at all?
It is obvious you are trolling,
In the end it is personal choice, not your opinion..
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
So much ignorance on this thread. Im going to puke.
*closes thread*
When EQ started up, 99% of us had never heard the Sandbox/Themepark terms, and honestly wouldn't have cared if we had. We were having fun, instead of acting like anal retentives and nitpicking over essentially meaningless terms.