1)How did EQ manage to get Sandbox to switch over to Theme Park mmos, back in the day? 2) Was EQ hated on by Sandbox fans, like they currently do now when it comes to WoW? 3) What do you think made the MMORPG industry convert over into Theme Park style, rather then sticking with the traditional Snadbox gaming, that many Old School MMO players enjoyed soo much?
I was wondering. How did EQ manage to be soo succesful as a more Theme Park oriented MMO, around the time that Sandbox Mmos were dominate? Anybod have an idea as to what unfolded during those ages?
Your first 2 questions were not even relevant back then. The only hate I remember came from players calling out other players on VN-Boards for getting trained, ninja looted, or a camp stolen
I played EQ1 starting about 2 months after it was released and the first quest I ever picked up was a mail delivery from Kaladim to Kelethin. No direction, just the name of the town and the person I was suppose to give it to. There was no hand holding and you had no idea what you were going to run into once you actually figured out where you were going.
When EQ1 came out and for years after, theme park was something you got into the car and drove to. EQ had no quests to move you into the next area. You moved on when you no longer got experience in the area you were fighting in. As time went by you figured out what dungeons were in your level range.
You found things out by exploring or asking someone, very little information was posted on the internet when the game came out.
Hmm, it is not because EQ was/is harder, that it can not be a theme park. It has certainly much less sandbox elements than lets say EVE or UO.
I think EQ is less themepark than WoW, like DAoC is more sandbox than WAR. In EQ and DAoC you clearly had alot more freedom and alot less handholding than WoW and WAR.
But they still are more Themepark than EVE and UO, even if it is only because of the levels and classes, forcing you into a role.
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Also I first played on the pvp server in Eq and that was just as hardcore as UO pre-trammel.
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raystantzFinal Fantasy XI CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,237
Back then EQ and UO were the "big names" in MMO. Back then, MMOs for the general public was scarce. The only people who played then were "mmorpg" gamers. They weren't your average Joe who heard about the game from a lame Mr. T commercial or from their 12 year old cousin who plays. MMO gamers back then were alot older, and alot more mature. Granted I started playing MMO's when I was about 14.. I'm 28 now. Even then, I was more mature than most of the MMO population is today. Why? Because back then it was a "phenomenon". We were able to do something that previously no games had ever done. Being able to explore a vast fantasy world with other like minded players. We were our avatars then. Now, your just a pimply 16 year old behind an emachines, eating cheetos and yelling "ZMG PWNED"
Gamers have little respect for each other now. Part of that is due to how commonplace the internet is and how easy it is to say demeaning stuff to people because you know they can't do jack to you from across an internet connection. There were a handful of people like this back then, but now its completely out of hand. WoW's population consists of probably half of this type of player. I was talking to a friend this morning, and we talked about all the people we knew who played WoW.. and how few of them had ever played another MMO before that. They act completely different than we do in games because of that. We have that history and we respect the genre. Those players think WoW is the end all be all.
Everquest then, was very difficult and I wouldn't consider it a theme park. You weren't led around, and there were very few quests. You leveled by joining up with several strangers and hitting a camp spot. Just like you do in FFXI. Now, in recent years they've changed that.. so the EQ you would play now.. is not at all anything like the EQ then. WoW was really the start of this whole themepark MMO generation. They took the stuff that made EQ addicting, took all the difficulty and frustration out, took most of the forced grouping out.. and bam.. they had WoW. A game about number crunching, and getting new shines every week. All the adventure and all the immersiveness that we had in EQ was gone.
Back then, anyone who was developing a new MMO to add to the selection was a good thing. Now, there are so many that are just exact copies of each other.. noone cares anymore.
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1)How did EQ manage to get Sandbox to switch over to Theme Park mmos, back in the day? 2) Was EQ hated on by Sandbox fans, like they currently do now when it comes to WoW? 3) What do you think made the MMORPG industry convert over into Theme Park style, rather then sticking with the traditional Snadbox gaming, that many Old School MMO players enjoyed soo much?
I was wondering. How did EQ manage to be soo succesful as a more Theme Park oriented MMO, around the time that Sandbox Mmos were dominate? Anybod have an idea as to what unfolded during those ages?
1. There was no need for it, most people in EQ were new to MMO and accepted the game. EQ isn't really a themepark MMO. It has a bit of themepark here and there, but I would consider it to be of the sandbox genre, by the vast amounts of zones and options it has.
2. No.
3. Not sure it has, different playstyles maybe hehe.
There's wasn't anything which I would call fanboyism or hatred, and there still isn't amongst the EQ community. There was some disdain towards WoW when it came out though, but that has subsided and the EQ and WoW community seem to get along very well, I know many players who play both EQ and WoW together.
Surprised how many people considered EQ to be a sandbox game. Its pretty well known that EQ brought new theme park elements to the MMO genre and since its release most games added more and more of these elements to what we have now with World of Warcraft / Lord of the Rings Online.
I guess some of you may not have been around then, or maybe your comparing your theme park to games like LotRO and WoW which is on the complete end of the theme park spectrum. I will say EQ, as theme park as it was.. and yes.. it was.. doesnt compare to what we have now.
The reason you didnt have so much fanboism and hate, like others pointed out there werent proper avenues for this via forums etc. As others pointed out, at that era of gaming not many people knew what theme park was and what sandbox was. Asherons Call and Ultima Online, the two biggest sandbox games were the only two "well known" games around (although others existed, ie meridian 59) and everquest started to give players actual quests and objectives. Something UO and AC lacked.
make long stories short, it may not be what some folks consider a theme park.. but it was the first to bring theme park elements to MMO's and IMO is what spawned these so-called "next gen" theme park MMOs.
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a robot foot stomping on a human face -- forever."
Anyone who thinks that the "sandbox/themepark" debate even existed when EQ came out is either hopelessly out of touch with history (and/or reality), or they are so focused on trying to argue against "themepark" games that they have essentially discarded with facts and have opted to rely mainly on opinions. So which is it? Is the OP fracking insane, or just plain ignorant? The world may never know. Or care.
So Theme Park style MMOs were a new innovating thing, So why so much hatred towards TP mmos, when all I hear from these same people, is that they want innovation.
And to the people Saying EQ wasnt a TP mmo, I only got the info from another thread on here, as to the First Succesful TP MMO which many labled EQ.
And the agrument didnt have to be TP vs SB, literaly back then, it could have been, new style vs Current style, or something like that. In the OP, I didnt mean by Terms (Theme Park, and Sand Box). In another thread, I also heard EQ had hatred, when it reached the thrown of MMOs back in the day. There had to be a reason for this, when I still hear many old school mmo gamers, now days complain about the lack of new things, yet they also complained, when EQ tried something new and brached off into what we call TP mmos.
So just seems like no pleasing them, when they conplain both ways. Thats all
Anyone who thinks that the "sandbox/themepark" debate even existed when EQ came out is either hopelessly out of touch with history (and/or reality), or they are so focused on trying to argue against "themepark" games that they have essentially discarded with facts and have opted to rely mainly on opinions. So which is it? Is the OP fracking insane, or just plain ignorant? The world may never know. Or care.
So Theme Park style MMOs were a new innovating thing, So why so much hatred towards TP mmos, when all I hear from these same people, is that they want innovation.
And to the people Saying EQ wasnt a TP mmo, I only got the info from another thread on here, as to the First Succesful TP MMO which many labled EQ.
And the agrument didnt have to be TP vs SB, literaly back then, it could have been, new style vs Current style, or something like that. In the OP, I didnt mean by Terms (Theme Park, and Sand Box). In another thread, I also heard EQ had hatred, when it reached the thrown of MMOs back in the day. There had to be a reason for this, when I still hear many old school mmo gamers, now days complain about the lack of new things, yet they also complained, when EQ tried something new and brached off into what we call TP mmos.
So just seems like no pleasing them, when they conplain both ways. Thats all
You have to keep in mind that back then we had next to no MMOs to choose from.
Today we complain or atleast I complain about the saturation of the themepark sub genre.
I was happy when EQ hit because it was 3d and that offered something different compared to UO and its 2d playstyle.
Back then if we had 100+ themeparks and under 10 sandbox games then yes maybe we would have given it a hardtime since as a sandbox fan I enjoy variety in my genre.
1)How did EQ manage to get Sandbox to switch over to Theme Park mmos, back in the day? 2) Was EQ hated on by Sandbox fans, like they currently do now when it comes to WoW? 3) What do you think made the MMORPG industry convert over into Theme Park style, rather then sticking with the traditional Snadbox gaming, that many Old School MMO players enjoyed soo much?
I was wondering. How did EQ manage to be soo succesful as a more Theme Park oriented MMO, around the time that Sandbox Mmos were dominate? Anybod have an idea as to what unfolded during those ages?
1) EQ wasn't a theme park when it first came out
2) I don't know.
3) SOE started turning EQ into a theme park in 2002
Anyone who thinks that the "sandbox/themepark" debate even existed when EQ came out is either hopelessly out of touch with history (and/or reality), or they are so focused on trying to argue against "themepark" games that they have essentially discarded with facts and have opted to rely mainly on opinions. So which is it? Is the OP fracking insane, or just plain ignorant? The world may never know. Or care.
So Theme Park style MMOs were a new innovating thing, So why so much hatred towards TP mmos, when all I hear from these same people, is that they want innovation.
And to the people Saying EQ wasnt a TP mmo, I only got the info from another thread on here, as to the First Succesful TP MMO which many labled EQ.
And the agrument didnt have to be TP vs SB, literaly back then, it could have been, new style vs Current style, or something like that. In the OP, I didnt mean by Terms (Theme Park, and Sand Box). In another thread, I also heard EQ had hatred, when it reached the thrown of MMOs back in the day. There had to be a reason for this, when I still hear many old school mmo gamers, now days complain about the lack of new things, yet they also complained, when EQ tried something new and brached off into what we call TP mmos.
So just seems like no pleasing them, when they conplain both ways. Thats all
Because the TP forumla is the only forumla being used by big companies who can afford to get an MMO semi-right for launch are using. These companies listen solely to their investors who are mostly people who don't game (making money is their gaming) and only know of WoW. So they want the games they are backing to be like WoW (money earning wise) and from the limited "research they do they can look at an investment (what we call a game in development) and then "show concern" when it's not sounding like what WoW is doing.
I don't know if it's accurate to say most people hate (in an aggressive way) TP games as much as they hate the fact that companies are trying to chase WoW success and not a single company has come close. Most normal Joe gamers see that and wonder why in the hell all these "degreed professionals" can't see it and try to make something else and score big that way. Sandbox style games have only barely been touched on. The "potential" there with a well thought out game with loads and loads of detailed systems/mechanics is untapped. It's a Spindletop in the making.
Personally, I don't hate TP MMOS. That said, if we were seeing the same amount of Sandboxish MMOs being put out by well funded companies today as we do with the TP variety, I'd never buy another TP MMO again.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
As I've said before, there are no true sandbox games. An mmorpg that gives you total freedom to do what you want has never existed. The closest I've ever seen in 10+ years of mmorpg gaming is second life, and that's considered to be more of a glorified chat room. Every mmorpg since the first has been varying degrees of a themepark design. If you apply the true definition of a sandbox mmo, you will find that none have ever fit the description. "Hardcore" gamers like to call their game a sanbox and everyone elses preference a themepark in a vain attempt to seperate themselves from the filthy casual gaming masses. The best you can do is pick a game that has the most features you like. But don't lie to yourself that you're playing a true sandbox mmorpg.
1)How did EQ manage to get Sandbox to switch over to Theme Park mmos, back in the day? 2) Was EQ hated on by Sandbox fans, like they currently do now when it comes to WoW? 3) What do you think made the MMORPG industry convert over into Theme Park style, rather then sticking with the traditional Snadbox gaming, that many Old School MMO players enjoyed soo much?
I was wondering. How did EQ manage to be soo succesful as a more Theme Park oriented MMO, around the time that Sandbox Mmos were dominate? Anybod have an idea as to what unfolded during those ages?
You are assuming that circa March '99 when EQ launched "sandbox" meant anything at all. It did not. Actually the themepark style has far more pre-UO/EQ history than sandbox, none of the earliest graphical online RPGs were "sandbox". So EQ was not strange, it was actually more familiar to most players in terms of content and gameplay than UO.
So...
1. There was no "switch". Sandbox was not even an MMO term at the time.
2. EQ was not hated on by "sandbox fans", there was not very much cross game hate back then. People were more excited about new games than protective of old ones back in the late 90s.
3. Circa '99 when EQ launched sandbox was not "old school". Theme park was "old school". Look at all the MMO's and breakthrough online multi user RPG's that came before. Not a single one was sandbox. "Old school" was, and always will be, themepark. UO was the new kid on the block, and themepark was a brand new concept.
I think you have some of your basic conceptions about the development of the MMO world backwards. The mindset of the MMO community in the late 90s was vastly different than it is now, or even was five years ago.
1)How did EQ manage to get Sandbox to switch over to Theme Park mmos, back in the day? 2) Was EQ hated on by Sandbox fans, like they currently do now when it comes to WoW? 3) What do you think made the MMORPG industry convert over into Theme Park style, rather then sticking with the traditional Snadbox gaming, that many Old School MMO players enjoyed soo much?
I was wondering. How did EQ manage to be soo succesful as a more Theme Park oriented MMO, around the time that Sandbox Mmos were dominate? Anybod have an idea as to what unfolded during those ages?
1) EQ wasn't a theme park when it first came out
2) I don't know.
3) SOE started turning EQ into a theme park in 2002
This is probably the best post on this subject that I've seen so far. The fact that you all seem to give a rat's ass about what's a TP or a SB amazes me to no end.
Is it fun?
Does it last?
Only factors for me. The rest means shiat.....
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
1)How did EQ manage to get Sandbox to switch over to Theme Park mmos, back in the day? 2) Was EQ hated on by Sandbox fans, like they currently do now when it comes to WoW? 3) What do you think made the MMORPG industry convert over into Theme Park style, rather then sticking with the traditional Snadbox gaming, that many Old School MMO players enjoyed soo much?
I was wondering. How did EQ manage to be soo succesful as a more Theme Park oriented MMO, around the time that Sandbox Mmos were dominate? Anybod have an idea as to what unfolded during those ages?
I wouldn't know, I wasn't playing mmos then, but I can only assume that's it because it was something new and appealed to everyone?
Anyone who thinks that the "sandbox/themepark" debate even existed when EQ came out is either hopelessly out of touch with history (and/or reality), or they are so focused on trying to argue against "themepark" games that they have essentially discarded with facts and have opted to rely mainly on opinions. So which is it? Is the OP fracking insane, or just plain ignorant? The world may never know. Or care.
Sometimes people ask questions because they don't know the answer. That obviously seems to be the case with the OP.
So rather than tossing a lot of quick insults, a ridiculously short and simple answer of "They didn't. These concepts didn't exist back then." would answer the question without making you sound like a jackass.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Anyone who thinks that the "sandbox/themepark" debate even existed when EQ came out is either hopelessly out of touch with history (and/or reality), or they are so focused on trying to argue against "themepark" games that they have essentially discarded with facts and have opted to rely mainly on opinions. So which is it? Is the OP fracking insane, or just plain ignorant? The world may never know. Or care.
Sometimes people ask questions because they don't know the answer. That obviously seems to be the case with the OP.
So rather than tossing a lot of quick insults, a ridiculously short and simple answer of "They didn't. These concepts didn't exist back then." would answer the question without making you sound like a jackass.
Then again, posting a supposedly intelligent thread on a hostile internet forum without using Google will make you look like a jackass.
Anyone who thinks that the "sandbox/themepark" debate even existed when EQ came out is either hopelessly out of touch with history (and/or reality), or they are so focused on trying to argue against "themepark" games that they have essentially discarded with facts and have opted to rely mainly on opinions. So which is it? Is the OP fracking insane, or just plain ignorant? The world may never know. Or care.
Sometimes people ask questions because they don't know the answer. That obviously seems to be the case with the OP.
So rather than tossing a lot of quick insults, a ridiculously short and simple answer of "They didn't. These concepts didn't exist back then." would answer the question without making you sound like a jackass.
Then again, posting a supposedly intelligent thread on a hostile internet forum without using Google will make you look like a jackass.
^ This...and the fact that it's TODAY'S MMO PLAYER who even thought up this moronic argument in the first place.
Just play...stop bitching....
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I noticed alot of you descriping WoW and EVE as the two games that brought up the whole "themepark" and "sandbox" arguments. Thats just not true, as it was SWG that gave us a taste of what a TRUE sandbox should be then this "themepark" WoW came out 1 year later and over millions joined which caused SWG to convert from sandbox to themeark and it never survived the change. Just thought i'd inform the uninformed.
I noticed alot of you descriping WoW and EVE as the two games that brought up the whole "themepark" and "sandbox" arguments. Thats just not true, as it was SWG that gave us a taste of what a TRUE sandbox should be then this "themepark" WoW came out 1 year later and over millions joined which caused SWG to convert from sandbox to themeark and it never survived the change. Just thought i'd inform the uninformed.
Might be true...but still brings to us the jackass TP/SB argument. Which would never be if not for a bunch of bored MMO gamers.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Comments
Your first 2 questions were not even relevant back then. The only hate I remember came from players calling out other players on VN-Boards for getting trained, ninja looted, or a camp stolen
I played EQ1 starting about 2 months after it was released and the first quest I ever picked up was a mail delivery from Kaladim to Kelethin. No direction, just the name of the town and the person I was suppose to give it to. There was no hand holding and you had no idea what you were going to run into once you actually figured out where you were going.
When EQ1 came out and for years after, theme park was something you got into the car and drove to. EQ had no quests to move you into the next area. You moved on when you no longer got experience in the area you were fighting in. As time went by you figured out what dungeons were in your level range.
You found things out by exploring or asking someone, very little information was posted on the internet when the game came out.
Theme park . . .my ass.
Hmm, it is not because EQ was/is harder, that it can not be a theme park. It has certainly much less sandbox elements than lets say EVE or UO.
I think EQ is less themepark than WoW, like DAoC is more sandbox than WAR. In EQ and DAoC you clearly had alot more freedom and alot less handholding than WoW and WAR.
But they still are more Themepark than EVE and UO, even if it is only because of the levels and classes, forcing you into a role.
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Back then I didn't care.
I played UO and when EQ released I played both.
I was excited to have a 3d mmo to play.
Also I first played on the pvp server in Eq and that was just as hardcore as UO pre-trammel.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Back then EQ and UO were the "big names" in MMO. Back then, MMOs for the general public was scarce. The only people who played then were "mmorpg" gamers. They weren't your average Joe who heard about the game from a lame Mr. T commercial or from their 12 year old cousin who plays. MMO gamers back then were alot older, and alot more mature. Granted I started playing MMO's when I was about 14.. I'm 28 now. Even then, I was more mature than most of the MMO population is today. Why? Because back then it was a "phenomenon". We were able to do something that previously no games had ever done. Being able to explore a vast fantasy world with other like minded players. We were our avatars then. Now, your just a pimply 16 year old behind an emachines, eating cheetos and yelling "ZMG PWNED"
Gamers have little respect for each other now. Part of that is due to how commonplace the internet is and how easy it is to say demeaning stuff to people because you know they can't do jack to you from across an internet connection. There were a handful of people like this back then, but now its completely out of hand. WoW's population consists of probably half of this type of player. I was talking to a friend this morning, and we talked about all the people we knew who played WoW.. and how few of them had ever played another MMO before that. They act completely different than we do in games because of that. We have that history and we respect the genre. Those players think WoW is the end all be all.
Everquest then, was very difficult and I wouldn't consider it a theme park. You weren't led around, and there were very few quests. You leveled by joining up with several strangers and hitting a camp spot. Just like you do in FFXI. Now, in recent years they've changed that.. so the EQ you would play now.. is not at all anything like the EQ then. WoW was really the start of this whole themepark MMO generation. They took the stuff that made EQ addicting, took all the difficulty and frustration out, took most of the forced grouping out.. and bam.. they had WoW. A game about number crunching, and getting new shines every week. All the adventure and all the immersiveness that we had in EQ was gone.
Back then, anyone who was developing a new MMO to add to the selection was a good thing. Now, there are so many that are just exact copies of each other.. noone cares anymore.
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Currently playing:
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Well Everquest was the first fully 3D mmorpg so as a Pioneer people wern't fedup of the format yet.
1. There was no need for it, most people in EQ were new to MMO and accepted the game. EQ isn't really a themepark MMO. It has a bit of themepark here and there, but I would consider it to be of the sandbox genre, by the vast amounts of zones and options it has.
2. No.
3. Not sure it has, different playstyles maybe hehe.
There's wasn't anything which I would call fanboyism or hatred, and there still isn't amongst the EQ community. There was some disdain towards WoW when it came out though, but that has subsided and the EQ and WoW community seem to get along very well, I know many players who play both EQ and WoW together.
Surprised how many people considered EQ to be a sandbox game. Its pretty well known that EQ brought new theme park elements to the MMO genre and since its release most games added more and more of these elements to what we have now with World of Warcraft / Lord of the Rings Online.
I guess some of you may not have been around then, or maybe your comparing your theme park to games like LotRO and WoW which is on the complete end of the theme park spectrum. I will say EQ, as theme park as it was.. and yes.. it was.. doesnt compare to what we have now.
The reason you didnt have so much fanboism and hate, like others pointed out there werent proper avenues for this via forums etc. As others pointed out, at that era of gaming not many people knew what theme park was and what sandbox was. Asherons Call and Ultima Online, the two biggest sandbox games were the only two "well known" games around (although others existed, ie meridian 59) and everquest started to give players actual quests and objectives. Something UO and AC lacked.
make long stories short, it may not be what some folks consider a theme park.. but it was the first to bring theme park elements to MMO's and IMO is what spawned these so-called "next gen" theme park MMOs.
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a robot foot stomping on a human face -- forever."
when i hear of a theme park game i think of building roller coasters and rides and food courts.
"Building" is a Sandbox element, correct?
"Building" is a Sandbox element, correct?
mhm.
imo a actual "Theme Park" mmo would be pretty fun. How ever it would work. Kinda like Cities XL i guess. Having the biggest theme park and such.
So Theme Park style MMOs were a new innovating thing, So why so much hatred towards TP mmos, when all I hear from these same people, is that they want innovation.
And to the people Saying EQ wasnt a TP mmo, I only got the info from another thread on here, as to the First Succesful TP MMO which many labled EQ.
And the agrument didnt have to be TP vs SB, literaly back then, it could have been, new style vs Current style, or something like that. In the OP, I didnt mean by Terms (Theme Park, and Sand Box). In another thread, I also heard EQ had hatred, when it reached the thrown of MMOs back in the day. There had to be a reason for this, when I still hear many old school mmo gamers, now days complain about the lack of new things, yet they also complained, when EQ tried something new and brached off into what we call TP mmos.
So just seems like no pleasing them, when they conplain both ways. Thats all
So Theme Park style MMOs were a new innovating thing, So why so much hatred towards TP mmos, when all I hear from these same people, is that they want innovation.
And to the people Saying EQ wasnt a TP mmo, I only got the info from another thread on here, as to the First Succesful TP MMO which many labled EQ.
And the agrument didnt have to be TP vs SB, literaly back then, it could have been, new style vs Current style, or something like that. In the OP, I didnt mean by Terms (Theme Park, and Sand Box). In another thread, I also heard EQ had hatred, when it reached the thrown of MMOs back in the day. There had to be a reason for this, when I still hear many old school mmo gamers, now days complain about the lack of new things, yet they also complained, when EQ tried something new and brached off into what we call TP mmos.
So just seems like no pleasing them, when they conplain both ways. Thats all
You have to keep in mind that back then we had next to no MMOs to choose from.
Today we complain or atleast I complain about the saturation of the themepark sub genre.
I was happy when EQ hit because it was 3d and that offered something different compared to UO and its 2d playstyle.
Back then if we had 100+ themeparks and under 10 sandbox games then yes maybe we would have given it a hardtime since as a sandbox fan I enjoy variety in my genre.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
another cliche keeps chugging along with the MMO "community".
/rolls eyes
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
1) EQ wasn't a theme park when it first came out
2) I don't know.
3) SOE started turning EQ into a theme park in 2002
So Theme Park style MMOs were a new innovating thing, So why so much hatred towards TP mmos, when all I hear from these same people, is that they want innovation.
And to the people Saying EQ wasnt a TP mmo, I only got the info from another thread on here, as to the First Succesful TP MMO which many labled EQ.
And the agrument didnt have to be TP vs SB, literaly back then, it could have been, new style vs Current style, or something like that. In the OP, I didnt mean by Terms (Theme Park, and Sand Box). In another thread, I also heard EQ had hatred, when it reached the thrown of MMOs back in the day. There had to be a reason for this, when I still hear many old school mmo gamers, now days complain about the lack of new things, yet they also complained, when EQ tried something new and brached off into what we call TP mmos.
So just seems like no pleasing them, when they conplain both ways. Thats all
Because the TP forumla is the only forumla being used by big companies who can afford to get an MMO semi-right for launch are using. These companies listen solely to their investors who are mostly people who don't game (making money is their gaming) and only know of WoW. So they want the games they are backing to be like WoW (money earning wise) and from the limited "research they do they can look at an investment (what we call a game in development) and then "show concern" when it's not sounding like what WoW is doing.
I don't know if it's accurate to say most people hate (in an aggressive way) TP games as much as they hate the fact that companies are trying to chase WoW success and not a single company has come close. Most normal Joe gamers see that and wonder why in the hell all these "degreed professionals" can't see it and try to make something else and score big that way. Sandbox style games have only barely been touched on. The "potential" there with a well thought out game with loads and loads of detailed systems/mechanics is untapped. It's a Spindletop in the making.
Personally, I don't hate TP MMOS. That said, if we were seeing the same amount of Sandboxish MMOs being put out by well funded companies today as we do with the TP variety, I'd never buy another TP MMO again.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
As I've said before, there are no true sandbox games. An mmorpg that gives you total freedom to do what you want has never existed. The closest I've ever seen in 10+ years of mmorpg gaming is second life, and that's considered to be more of a glorified chat room. Every mmorpg since the first has been varying degrees of a themepark design. If you apply the true definition of a sandbox mmo, you will find that none have ever fit the description. "Hardcore" gamers like to call their game a sanbox and everyone elses preference a themepark in a vain attempt to seperate themselves from the filthy casual gaming masses. The best you can do is pick a game that has the most features you like. But don't lie to yourself that you're playing a true sandbox mmorpg.
You are assuming that circa March '99 when EQ launched "sandbox" meant anything at all. It did not. Actually the themepark style has far more pre-UO/EQ history than sandbox, none of the earliest graphical online RPGs were "sandbox". So EQ was not strange, it was actually more familiar to most players in terms of content and gameplay than UO.
So...
1. There was no "switch". Sandbox was not even an MMO term at the time.
2. EQ was not hated on by "sandbox fans", there was not very much cross game hate back then. People were more excited about new games than protective of old ones back in the late 90s.
3. Circa '99 when EQ launched sandbox was not "old school". Theme park was "old school". Look at all the MMO's and breakthrough online multi user RPG's that came before. Not a single one was sandbox. "Old school" was, and always will be, themepark. UO was the new kid on the block, and themepark was a brand new concept.
I think you have some of your basic conceptions about the development of the MMO world backwards. The mindset of the MMO community in the late 90s was vastly different than it is now, or even was five years ago.
1) EQ wasn't a theme park when it first came out
2) I don't know.
3) SOE started turning EQ into a theme park in 2002
This is probably the best post on this subject that I've seen so far. The fact that you all seem to give a rat's ass about what's a TP or a SB amazes me to no end.
Is it fun?
Does it last?
Only factors for me. The rest means shiat.....
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I wouldn't know, I wasn't playing mmos then, but I can only assume that's it because it was something new and appealed to everyone?
Sometimes people ask questions because they don't know the answer. That obviously seems to be the case with the OP.
So rather than tossing a lot of quick insults, a ridiculously short and simple answer of "They didn't. These concepts didn't exist back then." would answer the question without making you sound like a jackass.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Sometimes people ask questions because they don't know the answer. That obviously seems to be the case with the OP.
So rather than tossing a lot of quick insults, a ridiculously short and simple answer of "They didn't. These concepts didn't exist back then." would answer the question without making you sound like a jackass.
Then again, posting a supposedly intelligent thread on a hostile internet forum without using Google will make you look like a jackass.
Sometimes people ask questions because they don't know the answer. That obviously seems to be the case with the OP.
So rather than tossing a lot of quick insults, a ridiculously short and simple answer of "They didn't. These concepts didn't exist back then." would answer the question without making you sound like a jackass.
Then again, posting a supposedly intelligent thread on a hostile internet forum without using Google will make you look like a jackass.
^ This...and the fact that it's TODAY'S MMO PLAYER who even thought up this moronic argument in the first place.
Just play...stop bitching....
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I noticed alot of you descriping WoW and EVE as the two games that brought up the whole "themepark" and "sandbox" arguments. Thats just not true, as it was SWG that gave us a taste of what a TRUE sandbox should be then this "themepark" WoW came out 1 year later and over millions joined which caused SWG to convert from sandbox to themeark and it never survived the change. Just thought i'd inform the uninformed.
Might be true...but still brings to us the jackass TP/SB argument. Which would never be if not for a bunch of bored MMO gamers.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."