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Are CC classes dead?
Arcken
Member Posts: 2,431
Whatever happened to CC classes in MMOs? It seems as though newer games have elimated the role completely. Anyone have any examples of games that still use them?
Comments
EQ2 has the illusionist and the coercer as CC classes.
They do seem to indeed be dead or dying though.
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CC classes are usually OP. But they are still in most games. Spirit Master in AION, latest game I played with it.
"Sometimes people say stuff they don''t mean, but more often then that they don''t say things they do mean"
Aion - Sorcerer, spiritmaster
WoW - Warlock / Mage
GW - Mesmer / Necromancer / Elementalist
EQ2 - Illusionist / Coercer
WAR - Magus / Engineer
LotRO - Lore-Master / Burglar
FFXI - Black Mage
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CC classes aren't dead, though they aren't all as traditional as some may want. Many games are hybriding CC classes more, as most people like to do more than jsut disable everything, and not many people like to do nothing but get disable
CC classes tend to break PVP combat, or be utterly useless. Debuffers are a much better class design, since they don't revolve around turning off their victims (which is terrible in PVP.) This lets the victim fight back, which tends to make for more interesting PVP combat in general.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You obviously have a more specific definition of "debuffers" than I do. Last I checked, the vast majority of crowd control abilities in MMORPGs are also considered to be debuffs, though not all debuffs are necessarily considered to be crowd control. So I'm not really sure what you mean... to me, it's sort of like you're saying: "Grapes are bad, but grapes are much better."
Anyway, responding to the topic at hand, I personally love crowd control classes and yes, they seem to be going the way of the dodo. I think the reason for this is twofold: One, every modern MMORPG seems to measure achievements and "honor grinds" in PvP (which is the main use for a CC class) by how many enemy players someone can kill, and actual killing isn't a strong point of a pure CC class. Warhammer Online is a prime example of this; even the HEALERS only get credit based on how much damage the people they're healing are doing, which may sound fine on the surface, but presents a number of serious issues.
And two, getting hit with crowd control can be annoying. Your basic CC abilities slow or stop someone's movement, prevent them from attacking, put them "to sleep," cripple their attack or magic power, prevent them from healing themselves, "silence" them, and so on and so forth. A lot of people see this as being overpowered, even though in some MMORPGs certain classes can outright kill you in a matter of mere seconds. People would rather fight until their character dies and respawn than get saddled with debuffs UNTIL they die (even though they have a chance at cure or survival).
But Axehilt does have a point in that CC abilities are very difficult to balance. That's probably another reason why developers give a sprinkling of CC to most or all classes these days, which may help the game but removes a cool play style.
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
You obviously have a more specific definition of "debuffers" than I do. Last I checked, the vast majority of crowd control abilities in MMORPGs are also considered to be debuffs, though not all debuffs are necessarily considered to be crowd control. So I'm not really sure what you mean... to me, it's sort of like you're saying: "Grapes are bad, but grapes are much better."
Your analogy isnt quite in line with what he is saying. Using your analogy I read the comment as being: "Red grapes are bad, but green grapes are much better."
Just as grapes have different cultivars, so too does debuffs have different types. You can drop a characters evade to zero, without having to root them in place or lower their strength or wisdom/intelligence without turning off their hotbar.
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The most awesomest after school special T-shirt:
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It boils down to the fact that players play games to play (ie interact) with them. CC which completely disables characters stops players from interacting with the game, which just isn't fun.
So roots, partial silences, and slows tend to be vastly more fun, because players are able to continue making decisions. And that's without going into the myriad of other interesting debuffs which exist (like half the stuff Mesmers had in Guild Wars.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
That's why I said "sort of," and your analogy isn't quite appropriate, either. What's the difference between a "crowd control class" and a "debuffer class"? They're almost synonymous, from where I'm standing. AoE damage can be used to control crowds, and in most games DoT damage abilities are technically debuffs (since they show up on a debuff bar), but those are still DPS abilities, not what people typically think of when it comes to debuffs or crowd control.
Thus my confusion about how "debuffer classes" and "crowd control classes" are different. The difference between a red and green grape is obvious, but the difference between debuff/crowd control isn't, at least not to me. That's why I mentioned it.
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
In simple terms:
For the duration of a crowd control ability, you can't participate in the fight.
For the duration of a debuff ability, you can participate in the fight but are less effective.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I like how Wow does CC where every class has a form of it but if you have a class dedicated to it then it would be so annoying in PVP.
In WoW, every class does everything.
That definition of crowd control is completely new to me. Even the WoWWiki gives this definition for the term "crowd control":
"Crowd Control (abbreviated CC) refers to spells and abilities which limit an opponent's ability to fight."
I don't see anything in there about crowd control = no participation at all. Some debuffs and crowd control MIGHT shut a character down entirely, but not necessarily. Has the meaning of "crowd control" changed in the past year or two? Guess I missed the memo....
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
Errr...there is a class "dedicated to it". It's called Frost Mage, except that they got godlike damage as well and are pretty much 1v1 gods.
Errr...there is a class "dedicated to it". It's called Frost Mage, except that they got godlike damage as well and are pretty much 1v1 gods.
Dunno when I last played I never had a problem killing them with my Shadow Priest.
Sorry but that really says more about much "wikis" are dominated by idiots than anything else. Classic "crowd control" is indeed all about removing enemies from the fight entirely. Nearly everyone I've ever played with would consider "imiting an opponents ability to fight" a debuffer class-role...which is completely different from CC.
That said, classic CC is a thing of the past for two main reasons: (one already mentioned)
The biggest is that classic CC is invariably broken in PvP situations. No one likes being mezzed, stunned, rooted, feared etc out of being able to act while they are killed. It tends to make fights non-interactive. Rather than invite the balance headaches and issues for PvP, just ignore them. As a side benefit it makes PvE encounter coding easier too.
A second big reason is that with how dumbed down the modern generation of MMOs *all* are, the concept of crowd control is largely meaningless. Since most mobs/encounters are coded to only have a very small number of enemies aggro at once there is simply no need for the role. On the rare encounters where swarms of enemies are used, AoE dps and quick kills have replaced CC as the main strategy...largely because the swarms are usually fluff mobs just ment to slightly degrade the party resources.
(edit for clarity: yes plenty of classes still have some element of CC abilities; but it will not be a primary focus of a class again unless MMO design changes radically or someone makes a seriously "retro" game)
Errr...there is a class "dedicated to it". It's called Frost Mage, except that they got godlike damage as well and are pretty much 1v1 gods.
Dunno when I last played I never had a problem killing them with my Shadow Priest.
That was probably Pre-BC, since there wasn't a time where good frost mages couldnt beat shadow priests after that.
There's a guy on a EU server that will pay you 10k gold if you beat him in a duel, that says a lot.
Errr...there is a class "dedicated to it". It's called Frost Mage, except that they got godlike damage as well and are pretty much 1v1 gods.
Actually there ar several classes that can do CC , which are mages, rogues, hunters, druids, SP, in emergency cases paladins can cc for a few secs and so can warriors. Classes dedicated to cc are mages, rogues, hunters, even sp or druids id say as well. Hell even in toc at faction champions as a dk im used as a CC for the rogue, the entire fight all i do is kite the rogue.
That definition of crowd control is completely new to me. Even the WoWWiki gives this definition for the term "crowd control":
"Crowd Control (abbreviated CC) refers to spells and abilities which limit an opponent's ability to fight."
I don't see anything in there about crowd control = no participation at all. Some debuffs and crowd control MIGHT shut a character down entirely, but not necessarily. Has the meaning of "crowd control" changed in the past year or two? Guess I missed the memo....
Today you learned that online wikis should not be considered definitive.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Errr...there is a class "dedicated to it". It's called Frost Mage, except that they got godlike damage as well and are pretty much 1v1 gods.
Actually there ar several classes that can do CC , which are mages, rogues, hunters, druids, SP, in emergency cases paladins can cc for a few secs and so can warriors. Classes dedicated to cc are mages, rogues, hunters, even sp or druids id say as well. Hell even in toc at faction champions as a dk im used as a CC for the rogue, the entire fight all i do is kite the rogue.
Yes, but the frost mage has the most viable and practical CC and the damage itself is based on freezing people. They have a lot of AoE freezes and a proc freeze that doesn't share diminishing returns with the former, very powerful slows(one of them being on their actual DPS spell), the most powerful silence/interrupt effect in the game,Deep Freeze's stun, the very strong Polymorph..hell, even CC duration reduction through Mage Armor and stun escape through Blink.
Not only that they can practically kite everything, but they got extremely powerful anti-CC/damage reduction as well(hell, even that Fire Ward/Frost Ward can make a huge difference vs destruction warlocks and DKs).
Maybe I'm speaking too much from an arena perspective tho, since in PvE most classes got a good CC that can do the job.
And...as people said in this thread: the effects can be seen. A well played and well geared frost mage will destroy a same well played and well geared <Insert other class here in 1v1>(especially when they can get their hands on Haste gear from PvE). Not to mention, it's very powerful in arena as well.
Posted by aesperus on 12/05/09 at 1:43:47 AM
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Aion - Sorcerer, spiritmaster
WoW - Warlock / Mage
GW - Mesmer / Necromancer / Elementalist
EQ2 - Illusionist / Coercer
WAR - Magus / Engineer
LotRO - Lore-Master / Burglar
FFXI - Black Mage
-------------------------------------------
CC classes aren't dead, though they aren't all as traditional as some may want. Many games are hybriding CC classes more, as most people like to do more than jsut disable everything, and not many people like to do nothing but get disable
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you sure you played those games? War has more then magus and engineer with CC. In fact they have probably the fewest of the CC in the game. BW alone has more then Engineer. KOTBS has a couple strong ones... aoe cone Stagger. Aoe cone Knockdown. I can go on and on about how EVERY class has a couple. Engineer has One aoe root. and One AOE knockdown now. Which is bad now that ALL CC are one only 2 timers. So most likely somebody has a immune timer running because CC is thrown around by just about ALL characters in WAR.
LOTRO has more then just lore master and burglar.
WOW has more then just warlock and Mage. Hell best CCer in game is the rogue. In fact they bring so much to the table now. A group hardly ever goes without a rogue.
anyway, Yeah having a FULL OUT CC class is dead nowadays. Most games are gearing towards the, what i like to call it, WOWITIS. Everybody wants a piece of the pie that WOW brought in to the MMO community. Funny thing is most of WOWs subs come from asia.
So basically full out healer classes are another dieing because of the players from WOW. Too many want a healer that can DPS nowadays.
Errr, no, best CC class in WoW is Frost Mage.
Full ot healing classes are dying because of wow players? kEEP chatting more BS please. Lets see full out healing classes in wow, druid, priests, shamans, priests, paladins. These are full ot healing classes that cna chose to dps and spec another way if they wish or they can just stick with healing, there is absolutley no restriction. Yes another sandbox feature FTW.
Full ot healing classes are dying because of wow players? kEEP chatting more BS please. Lets see full out healing classes in wow, druid, priests, shamans, priests, paladins. These are full ot healing classes that cna chose to dps and spec another way if they wish or they can just stick with healing, there is absolutley no restriction. Yes another sandbox feature FTW.
LOL you are calling WOW a sandbox? LOL ok hate to tell you this.. WOW is not a sandbox.. learn the term. And thank you for proving me RIGHT. all those classes you mentioned are choiced by doing DPS hence proving that its not a FULL healer.. meaning you can SPEC DAMAGE.. gee you think that is what i was saying mr. WOW fanboy...
funny how SO MANY rush to defend WOW because they love it so much. LOL but hey thanks for helping me prove what i said.
Full ot healing classes are dying because of wow players? kEEP chatting more BS please. Lets see full out healing classes in wow, druid, priests, shamans, priests, paladins. These are full ot healing classes that cna chose to dps and spec another way if they wish or they can just stick with healing, there is absolutley no restriction. Yes another sandbox feature FTW.
LOL you are calling WOW a sandbox? LOL ok hate to tell you this.. WOW is not a sandbox.. learn the term. And thank you for proving me RIGHT. all those classes you mentioned are choiced by doing DPS hence proving that its not a FULL healer.. meaning you can SPEC DAMAGE.. gee you think that is what i was saying mr. WOW fanboy...
funny how SO MANY rush to defend WOW because they love it so much. LOL but hey thanks for helping me prove what i said.
My sandbox comment was sarcasm u moneky, beacsue alot of the idiots on this site get confused and call everything sanddbox. Because a class can chose to spec dmg his not a full healer? LOL are u thick in the brain or something? Must be my imagination then seeing those priests running around healing or druids etc, yes they cna chose to go full healing or chose to dps if they dont want to heal, because they have the option to do so.
Funny u talk about sandbox, wasnt sandbox about freedom and choice? Idiot carry on tlaking because u have no clue.
Keep in mind, Willvas, you may call WoW specs classes themselves since they play and gear different. You could dual-class a DPS class as well in Lineage 2(after years of grinding) , that doesn't mean your Bishop character would suddenly not be a pure healing class.