Posted by aesperus on 12/05/09 at 1:43:47 AM _____________________ Aion - Sorcerer, spiritmaster WoW - Warlock / Mage GW - Mesmer / Necromancer / Elementalist EQ2 - Illusionist / Coercer WAR - Magus / Engineer LotRO - Lore-Master / Burglar FFXI - Black Mage ------------------------------------------- CC classes aren't dead, though they aren't all as traditional as some may want. Many games are hybriding CC classes more, as most people like to do more than jsut disable everything, and not many people like to do nothing but get disable
________________________________________________________________________________________ you sure you played those games? War has more then magus and engineer with CC. In fact they have probably the fewest of the CC in the game. BW alone has more then Engineer. KOTBS has a couple strong ones... aoe cone Stagger. Aoe cone Knockdown. I can go on and on about how EVERY class has a couple. Engineer has One aoe root. and One AOE knockdown now. Which is bad now that ALL CC are one only 2 timers. So most likely somebody has a immune timer running because CC is thrown around by just about ALL characters in WAR. LOTRO has more then just lore master and burglar. WOW has more then just warlock and Mage. Hell best CCer in game is the rogue. In fact they bring so much to the table now. A group hardly ever goes without a rogue. anyway, Yeah having a FULL OUT CC class is dead nowadays. Most games are gearing towards the, what i like to call it, WOWITIS. Everybody wants a piece of the pie that WOW brought in to the MMO community. Funny thing is most of WOWs subs come from asia. So basically full out healer classes are another dieing because of the players from WOW. Too many want a healer that can DPS nowadays.
I left WoW in WOTLK when I found out that all 5 mans removed any challenge and CC from them. The heroics are not even as tough as the original game's regular 5 mans. WoW dungeons are now boring crap AOE zerg fest with no thinking. I like to play games for a bit of challenge, a possibility of winning or losing. The WoW crap dungeons are now just instant win garbage, which is boring.
It has already been mentioned which impact CC abilities have on PVE and PVP. I'm not fully satisfied with the given definitions of CC though.
CC abilities/spells
which revolve around aggro managment (e.g. taunt, intimidate) are useless in PvP, but make a healer's job easier in PvE
that incapacitate opponents are viewed as overpowered in PvP (e.g. hold spells)
that impede an opponent's movement capability (e.g. root, slow) let the victim still act
that charm/control opponents are viewed as unfair in PvP
are useful when outnumbered by lots of opponents
make battles easier
require team work to be effective
have effects that may be dispelled/countered with other abilities/spells
require team work to be countered
Lots of people just want to play the game. They don't want to wait for the best possible party setup or a specific class. And it's easier (but time consuming) to just hunt for equipment that will increase "DPS". That's similar to skipping dungeons for your level range and go back when you're too high level. In lots of situations PvP turns just into zerging.
Maybe that leads to the conclusion that CC may be dead?
My sandbox comment was sarcasm u moneky, beacsue alot of the idiots on this site get confused and call everything sanddbox. Because a class can chose to spec dmg his not a full healer? LOL are u thick in the brain or something? Must be my imagination then seeing those priests running around healing or druids etc, yes they cna chose to go full healing or chose to dps if they dont want to heal, because they have the option to do so.
Funny u talk about sandbox, wasnt sandbox about freedom and choice? Idiot carry on tlaking because u have no clue.
somebodies panties are in an uproar... ahh truth hurt? seriously, "yes another sandbox feature FTW." i could easily tell "sarcasm" if it was used in a better context obviously you dont know how to use and write it well. dont blame the reader.. blame the writer... hmm maybe that writer would be... YOU.
Why would you even mention sandbox? I never even mentioned it. You bringing in an imaginary discussion with yourself would not pertain to our little conversation here to bring up something that was purely pulled out of space. obviously you come from an era that wouldnt know a class that is purely healer. A PURE HEALING class is defined as no other option then to heal. GEE you think just maybe there were actually MMOs before WOW?
maybe its not me who is thick in the head. MAYBE its you who doesnt understand the concept of a PURE healing class and a PURE CC class. meaning thats ALL THEY DO. THEY HEAL... they CC. thats it. NO options to do damage. DO you think that is what is meant by a PURE HEALING CLASS? gee maybe its not me who is messed up on the definition. see nowadays.. a class that has the OPTION to do damage.. is now called a HYBRID CLASS. see do you understand now or you still gonna throw more temper WOW tantrums?
oh and i have full understanding what a sandbox is. a true SANDBOX would be STAR WARS GALXIES PRE CU. It was a true sandbox. and yes it did mean freedom and choice.
there is much more explaination as to what a sandbox is but no reason to go into it further as it is NOT the topic at hand. SO SIR please stay on topic. As i had NEVER mentioned sandbox you did. then you bring it in for some sarcasm? LOL you make no sense.
im curious as to what tlaking is? never heard of the word.
For the duration of a crowd control ability, you can't participate in the fight.
For the duration of a debuff ability, you can participate in the fight but are less effective.
That definition of crowd control is completely new to me. Even the WoWWiki gives this definition for the term "crowd control":
"Crowd Control (abbreviated CC) refers to spells and abilities which limit an opponent's ability to fight."
I don't see anything in there about crowd control = no participation at all. Some debuffs and crowd control MIGHT shut a character down entirely, but not necessarily. Has the meaning of "crowd control" changed in the past year or two? Guess I missed the memo....
Today you learned that online wikis should not be considered definitive.
Quite right, I should definitely side with random people on an Internet forum instead of random people who edit Wiki articles, even though I agree with the Wiki but not with you. Makes perfect sense!
Anyway, I learned what I need to know: Some people believe crowd control always means taking someone out of a fight 100%.
Currently Playing: EVE Online Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
Every developer making a CC class should take inspiration from the Guild Wars' Mesmer. Here is a class that screams CC and does it extremely well, but at no point does it literally disable the opponent. The player is always in absolute control of his character, but he is severely handicapped if he decides to pursue certain courses of action. That should be the essence of croud control, and not the 'sheep and forget' tactics.
Every developer making a CC class should take inspiration from the Guild Wars' Mesmer. Here is a class that screams CC and does it extremely well, but at no point does it literally disable the opponent. The player is always in absolute control of his character, but he is severely handicapped if he decides to pursue certain courses of action. That should be the essence of croud control, and not the 'sheep and forget' tactics.
Hey man, in this thread, it's not crowd control until it disables a character 100%. You'll have to call it something else if the restrictions are situational or only halve movement speed rather than taking it away entirely.
Sorry, I couldn't resist that. Anyway, I agree with you: I would much prefer to see moderate-to-severe, situational handicaps as crowd control rather than "sheep and forget."
Currently Playing: EVE Online Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
That "still" have them? *thinks* A few classes in WoW do. Rogues can stun and sap, frost spec'd mages can freeze consistently and fire mages can still stun at random can't they? Hunters can frost trap, priests can mind control... that I can remember off the top of my head.
I always saw CC as a reference back to the Mesmer class in EQ (though clerics could stun the aggro it drew was sick). An action initiated by a PC, to impede or stop a PC/NPC's intended actions. So as far as I can say, WoW still uses crowd control, though it's not limited to just "one" class.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Quite right, I should definitely side with random people on an Internet forum instead of random people who edit Wiki articles, even though I agree with the Wiki but not with you. Makes perfect sense!
Anyway, I learned what I need to know: Some people believe crowd control always means taking someone out of a fight 100%.
Yup. Some people believe that "crowd control" and "debuffing" are different.
Shocking, ain't it?
But I'm glad that your confusion has been abated.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Because, for some reason, players demand that every...single...MMO have PvE AND PvP mashed into it. Thats the issue.
CC works great for PvE, makes things much more entertaining and challenging when you take on multiple mobs and juggle CC to manage them.
In PvP, CC is second to only invisibility (*cough* stealth) as being the most over powered ability. Those 60+ second AE mezzes in DAOC pretty much sealed the deal on this issue.
This is another reason why I'd prefer to see a much better separation between PvP and PvE MMOs. Just focus on one or the other and don't bend backwards when the vocal minority stumbles blindly into your game and starts bitching.
DDO, an old fashioned PvE game has a multitude of Crowd controll classes...
Its PvP that killed the crowd controll in almost all games, casual players hate to be rooted in PvP, or mezzed or anything else..
Part of the greatness of AoC PvP was the crowd controll... as much as i hated being mezzed, it gave me some time to actually see what was going on around me, instead of just being focussed on my target....
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I wonder why most mmos don't just make each class have seperate Pve and pvp spells. Then maybe you would get back old CC classes but they would play differently for pvp and not destroy balance.
Because it sucks having your class and abilities be fun in PvE, but castrated in PvP.
Anytime "cc class" is mentioned I basically refer back to Enchanters from EQ who were built mostly for crowd control with lower damage output than other classes.
CC+Pulling was marginalised in newer MMO it seems. I remember Vanguard having ok CC though. My main reason for playing EQ is the difficulty of some of the group content and pulling and CC is definitely part of that.
Your analogy isnt quite in line with what he is saying.
That's why I said "sort of," and your analogy isn't quite appropriate, either. What's the difference between a "crowd control class" and a "debuffer class"? They're almost synonymous, from where I'm standing. AoE damage can be used to control crowds, and in most games DoT damage abilities are technically debuffs (since they show up on a debuff bar), but those are still DPS abilities, not what people typically think of when it comes to debuffs or crowd control.
Thus my confusion about how "debuffer classes" and "crowd control classes" are different. The difference between a red and green grape is obvious, but the difference between debuff/crowd control isn't, at least not to me. That's why I mentioned it.
Wow, I wasn't gonna bother replying to this because I thought maybe you were just joking around or something.
Look: it's very clear what I meant. Stop being dumb.
CC obviously refers more to disabling effects, and by contrast debuff in the post clearly meant things which reduced an enemy's fighting capabilities without disabling them.
Any discussion of the technicalities of the words beyond that is a waste of everyone's time. Don't waste everyone's time.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Who needs CC when every one can easily one shot everything? Welcome to the mmos of the future.
Hmmm. I wonder if it's more a question of power level in some games.
Caveat - this will be really about dungeon-bashing, as I'm not really much of a pvp-er.
I remember my first few instance runs in WoW - hunter will trap that, rogue will sap that, mage will freeze that. Some of my more recent adventures - though I haven't run a 'bleeding edge' dungeon in WoW in a long time, more through circumstance than preference - has just been "Nuke Skull", because the damage-causing ability is now so great that killing the baddies is actually the best method of CC (although the thought occurs that tanking itself is cc...). But in this I can see an analogy to many single player and even tabletop RPG's, where your character or party are fragile enough at the start that a Sleep or Hold Person spell is worth its weight in gold; less so when the hero/es is/are capable of levelling small cities several times over in the first round of combat. I'm guilty of it myself in many games, not just WoW and not just online.
Good or bad? I'm rather torn. For starters, I admit it is nice seeing big numbers flash across the screen, feeling that you ARE a fantasy hero, striding forward and hacking your way through an entire army of grunts, Conan-style (not the MMO, i should add - not played it). I like feeling that the raw recruit of so long ago is now a mighty hero. But then I do think that it's taking away some player skill, or perhaps thinking ability. That we can forget those early lessons because that horde of action icons on the hotbar will save us. Until they don't. And having got so sloppy it can be a bit of a struggle to rediscover that cautious old mindset.
I don't just blame developers though. If the player base is too focussed on racing to max level, only stepping into an instance with a level 80 God Of Death for the loot, then short of handing out Excalibur to people who run a dungeon with no character above the max 'recommended level' then community standards will ensure that those dungeon skills are only learned far, far too late. And followed by plenty of abuse in party chat.
In most MMOs people got tired of having to bring that one class along to do the dungeon, mage or what ever. So CC was phased out.
No, in WoW people got tired of that.
In other games, people enjoy having unique classes.
Pure CC classes have always been the most enjoyable class for me to play. In my experience as playing an enchanter in EQ I always got group invites as soon as I logged on. It was nice being as in demand as a cleric or tank, but still get to have a playstyle that suited me perfectly. I played a coercer in EQ2 until they released Nagafen.
Im actually thinking about going back to EQ2 just so I can enjoy the playstyle again.
Posted by aesperus on 12/05/09 at 1:43:47 AM _____________________ Aion - Sorcerer, spiritmaster WoW - Warlock / Mage GW - Mesmer / Necromancer / Elementalist EQ2 - Illusionist / Coercer WAR - Magus / Engineer LotRO - Lore-Master / Burglar FFXI - Black Mage ------------------------------------------- CC classes aren't dead, though they aren't all as traditional as some may want. Many games are hybriding CC classes more, as most people like to do more than jsut disable everything, and not many people like to do nothing but get disable
________________________________________________________________________________________ you sure you played those games? War has more then magus and engineer with CC. In fact they have probably the fewest of the CC in the game. BW alone has more then Engineer. KOTBS has a couple strong ones... aoe cone Stagger. Aoe cone Knockdown. I can go on and on about how EVERY class has a couple. Engineer has One aoe root. and One AOE knockdown now. Which is bad now that ALL CC are one only 2 timers. So most likely somebody has a immune timer running because CC is thrown around by just about ALL characters in WAR. LOTRO has more then just lore master and burglar. WOW has more then just warlock and Mage. Hell best CCer in game is the rogue. In fact they bring so much to the table now. A group hardly ever goes without a rogue. anyway, Yeah having a FULL OUT CC class is dead nowadays. Most games are gearing towards the, what i like to call it, WOWITIS. Everybody wants a piece of the pie that WOW brought in to the MMO community. Funny thing is most of WOWs subs come from asia. So basically full out healer classes are another dieing because of the players from WOW. Too many want a healer that can DPS nowadays.
I'm sorry for the confusion, but I was trying to list classes that focus mostly (or at least half) on CC. I know in some of the games listed there are other classes that have some CC skills, but they aren't CC classes. For example:
Rogue : He can stun etc. but he's not really geared towards handle multiple targets.
Warrior / Guardian / Warden / Etc.: Basically the tank. He can hold multiple mobs but that's not generally concidered CC either. He isn't really mitigating them so much as forces them to focus on himself.
Bright Wizards / Sorcs do have some CC sure (and perhaps WAR is one of the worst examples up there) they don't really focus on it. They disable a single target at most and try to focus fire (dps). Magus / Engineer is a combination of of pressure DPS and CC (or as close as that game comes to a CC class). It's true that CC skills are spread out much more than in other games, but they are the only classes that are really focused on it.
While it's true that many CC skills (stuns, knockdowns, etc.) exist across multiple (or nowadays all) classes, there are still classes that are 'focused' on disabling multiple targets to help out the group.
For example, take WoW. If you're in a raid and you get a lot of adds that your tank can't handle, do you think a rogue is going to single-handedly deal with them? Probably not. The group is going to rely on either a mage or warlock to handle that problem if they don't have an off tank or if the off tank is busy as well.
In most MMOs people got tired of having to bring that one class along to do the dungeon, mage or what ever. So CC was phased out.
So they will phase out tanks and healers next then? You need those two classes in most MMOs to do group work.
Nah, not phase out. It's all about the hybrid.
Instead of having a single class that can perform a role, you give each class the ability to do a couple of different ones. Some classes can tank and heal. Some can DPS and CC, etc.
You're not 100% reliant on a single class to perform a single necessary role.
The underlying concept is, of course, to make grouping less of a hassle.
CC/debuffers are going the same way as the rest of the "pure" classes.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Any discussion of the technicalities of the words beyond that is a waste of everyone's time. Don't waste everyone's time.
Obviously it's a waste of my time to converse with people who started playing MMORPGs with World of Warcraft, and therefore assume that crowd control primarily = sheeping and sleeping.
I'm not entirely sure why you and that guy with the ewok avatar turned pompous and condescending when I pointed out that your specific definition of the term "crowd control" clearly isn't shared by everyone, and at this point, I don't really care. We can all be pissy with each other and leave it at that.
Currently Playing: EVE Online Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
Any discussion of the technicalities of the words beyond that is a waste of everyone's time. Don't waste everyone's time.
Obviously it's a waste of my time to converse with people who started playing MMORPGs with World of Warcraft, and therefore assume that crowd control primarily = sheeping and sleeping.
Now, that's just blatant trolling.
I don't know about Axehilt, but my first MMO was Ultima Online back in 1997.
Looking at the "veteran list" in your signature, I'd say you joined the genre in, say .. 2001?
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Originally posted by ericbelser That said, classic CC is a thing of the past for two main reasons: (one already mentioned) The biggest is that classic CC is invariably broken in PvP situations. No one likes being mezzed, stunned, rooted, feared etc out of being able to act while they are killed. It tends to make fights non-interactive. Rather than invite the balance headaches and issues for PvP, just ignore them. As a side benefit it makes PvE encounter coding easier too. A second big reason is that with how dumbed down the modern generation of MMOs *all* are, the concept of crowd control is largely meaningless. Since most mobs/encounters are coded to only have a very small number of enemies aggro at once there is simply no need for the role. On the rare encounters where swarms of enemies are used, AoE dps and quick kills have replaced CC as the main strategy...largely because the swarms are usually fluff mobs just ment to slightly degrade the party resources. (edit for clarity: yes plenty of classes still have some element of CC abilities; but it will not be a primary focus of a class again unless MMO design changes radically or someone makes a seriously "retro" game)
This is true. Also are CC classes very hard to balance with the rest of the classes.
But I for one don't miss them much. I am not to keen on CC abilities, particularly in PvP.
This thread makes me sad. Even to this day I miss my Enchanter from EQ. No other class in any game as come close to the enjoyment I got from my Enchanter.
Comments
I left WoW in WOTLK when I found out that all 5 mans removed any challenge and CC from them. The heroics are not even as tough as the original game's regular 5 mans. WoW dungeons are now boring crap AOE zerg fest with no thinking. I like to play games for a bit of challenge, a possibility of winning or losing. The WoW crap dungeons are now just instant win garbage, which is boring.
It has already been mentioned which impact CC abilities have on PVE and PVP. I'm not fully satisfied with the given definitions of CC though.
CC abilities/spells
Lots of people just want to play the game. They don't want to wait for the best possible party setup or a specific class. And it's easier (but time consuming) to just hunt for equipment that will increase "DPS". That's similar to skipping dungeons for your level range and go back when you're too high level. In lots of situations PvP turns just into zerging.
Maybe that leads to the conclusion that CC may be dead?
My sandbox comment was sarcasm u moneky, beacsue alot of the idiots on this site get confused and call everything sanddbox. Because a class can chose to spec dmg his not a full healer? LOL are u thick in the brain or something? Must be my imagination then seeing those priests running around healing or druids etc, yes they cna chose to go full healing or chose to dps if they dont want to heal, because they have the option to do so.
Funny u talk about sandbox, wasnt sandbox about freedom and choice? Idiot carry on tlaking because u have no clue.
somebodies panties are in an uproar... ahh truth hurt? seriously, "yes another sandbox feature FTW." i could easily tell "sarcasm" if it was used in a better context obviously you dont know how to use and write it well. dont blame the reader.. blame the writer... hmm maybe that writer would be... YOU.
Why would you even mention sandbox? I never even mentioned it. You bringing in an imaginary discussion with yourself would not pertain to our little conversation here to bring up something that was purely pulled out of space. obviously you come from an era that wouldnt know a class that is purely healer. A PURE HEALING class is defined as no other option then to heal. GEE you think just maybe there were actually MMOs before WOW?
maybe its not me who is thick in the head. MAYBE its you who doesnt understand the concept of a PURE healing class and a PURE CC class. meaning thats ALL THEY DO. THEY HEAL... they CC. thats it. NO options to do damage. DO you think that is what is meant by a PURE HEALING CLASS? gee maybe its not me who is messed up on the definition. see nowadays.. a class that has the OPTION to do damage.. is now called a HYBRID CLASS. see do you understand now or you still gonna throw more temper WOW tantrums?
oh and i have full understanding what a sandbox is. a true SANDBOX would be STAR WARS GALXIES PRE CU. It was a true sandbox. and yes it did mean freedom and choice.
there is much more explaination as to what a sandbox is but no reason to go into it further as it is NOT the topic at hand. SO SIR please stay on topic. As i had NEVER mentioned sandbox you did. then you bring it in for some sarcasm? LOL you make no sense.
im curious as to what tlaking is? never heard of the word.
That definition of crowd control is completely new to me. Even the WoWWiki gives this definition for the term "crowd control":
"Crowd Control (abbreviated CC) refers to spells and abilities which limit an opponent's ability to fight."
I don't see anything in there about crowd control = no participation at all. Some debuffs and crowd control MIGHT shut a character down entirely, but not necessarily. Has the meaning of "crowd control" changed in the past year or two? Guess I missed the memo....
Today you learned that online wikis should not be considered definitive.
Quite right, I should definitely side with random people on an Internet forum instead of random people who edit Wiki articles, even though I agree with the Wiki but not with you. Makes perfect sense!
Anyway, I learned what I need to know: Some people believe crowd control always means taking someone out of a fight 100%.
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
Yeah we wont see classes totally filling roles of CC anymore.
Imo this is a good thing, Too much CC in pvp is a bad thing.
I prefer if a few classes can do one or two CC but in pve only.
Without CC pve is next to worthless (see Wow).
I wonder why most mmos don't just make each class have seperate Pve and pvp spells.
Then maybe you would get back old CC classes but they would play differently for pvp and not destroy balance.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Every developer making a CC class should take inspiration from the Guild Wars' Mesmer. Here is a class that screams CC and does it extremely well, but at no point does it literally disable the opponent. The player is always in absolute control of his character, but he is severely handicapped if he decides to pursue certain courses of action. That should be the essence of croud control, and not the 'sheep and forget' tactics.
Hey man, in this thread, it's not crowd control until it disables a character 100%. You'll have to call it something else if the restrictions are situational or only halve movement speed rather than taking it away entirely.
Sorry, I couldn't resist that. Anyway, I agree with you: I would much prefer to see moderate-to-severe, situational handicaps as crowd control rather than "sheep and forget."
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
That "still" have them? *thinks* A few classes in WoW do. Rogues can stun and sap, frost spec'd mages can freeze consistently and fire mages can still stun at random can't they? Hunters can frost trap, priests can mind control... that I can remember off the top of my head.
I always saw CC as a reference back to the Mesmer class in EQ (though clerics could stun the aggro it drew was sick). An action initiated by a PC, to impede or stop a PC/NPC's intended actions. So as far as I can say, WoW still uses crowd control, though it's not limited to just "one" class.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Yup. Some people believe that "crowd control" and "debuffing" are different.
Shocking, ain't it?
But I'm glad that your confusion has been abated.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Because, for some reason, players demand that every...single...MMO have PvE AND PvP mashed into it. Thats the issue.
CC works great for PvE, makes things much more entertaining and challenging when you take on multiple mobs and juggle CC to manage them.
In PvP, CC is second to only invisibility (*cough* stealth) as being the most over powered ability. Those 60+ second AE mezzes in DAOC pretty much sealed the deal on this issue.
This is another reason why I'd prefer to see a much better separation between PvP and PvE MMOs. Just focus on one or the other and don't bend backwards when the vocal minority stumbles blindly into your game and starts bitching.
DDO, an old fashioned PvE game has a multitude of Crowd controll classes...
Its PvP that killed the crowd controll in almost all games, casual players hate to be rooted in PvP, or mezzed or anything else..
Part of the greatness of AoC PvP was the crowd controll... as much as i hated being mezzed, it gave me some time to actually see what was going on around me, instead of just being focussed on my target....
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Because it sucks having your class and abilities be fun in PvE, but castrated in PvP.
Anytime "cc class" is mentioned I basically refer back to Enchanters from EQ who were built mostly for crowd control with lower damage output than other classes.
CC+Pulling was marginalised in newer MMO it seems. I remember Vanguard having ok CC though. My main reason for playing EQ is the difficulty of some of the group content and pulling and CC is definitely part of that.
That's why I said "sort of," and your analogy isn't quite appropriate, either. What's the difference between a "crowd control class" and a "debuffer class"? They're almost synonymous, from where I'm standing. AoE damage can be used to control crowds, and in most games DoT damage abilities are technically debuffs (since they show up on a debuff bar), but those are still DPS abilities, not what people typically think of when it comes to debuffs or crowd control.
Thus my confusion about how "debuffer classes" and "crowd control classes" are different. The difference between a red and green grape is obvious, but the difference between debuff/crowd control isn't, at least not to me. That's why I mentioned it.
Wow, I wasn't gonna bother replying to this because I thought maybe you were just joking around or something.
Look: it's very clear what I meant. Stop being dumb.
CC obviously refers more to disabling effects, and by contrast debuff in the post clearly meant things which reduced an enemy's fighting capabilities without disabling them.
Any discussion of the technicalities of the words beyond that is a waste of everyone's time. Don't waste everyone's time.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Hmmm. I wonder if it's more a question of power level in some games.
Caveat - this will be really about dungeon-bashing, as I'm not really much of a pvp-er.
I remember my first few instance runs in WoW - hunter will trap that, rogue will sap that, mage will freeze that. Some of my more recent adventures - though I haven't run a 'bleeding edge' dungeon in WoW in a long time, more through circumstance than preference - has just been "Nuke Skull", because the damage-causing ability is now so great that killing the baddies is actually the best method of CC (although the thought occurs that tanking itself is cc...). But in this I can see an analogy to many single player and even tabletop RPG's, where your character or party are fragile enough at the start that a Sleep or Hold Person spell is worth its weight in gold; less so when the hero/es is/are capable of levelling small cities several times over in the first round of combat. I'm guilty of it myself in many games, not just WoW and not just online.
Good or bad? I'm rather torn. For starters, I admit it is nice seeing big numbers flash across the screen, feeling that you ARE a fantasy hero, striding forward and hacking your way through an entire army of grunts, Conan-style (not the MMO, i should add - not played it). I like feeling that the raw recruit of so long ago is now a mighty hero. But then I do think that it's taking away some player skill, or perhaps thinking ability. That we can forget those early lessons because that horde of action icons on the hotbar will save us. Until they don't. And having got so sloppy it can be a bit of a struggle to rediscover that cautious old mindset.
I don't just blame developers though. If the player base is too focussed on racing to max level, only stepping into an instance with a level 80 God Of Death for the loot, then short of handing out Excalibur to people who run a dungeon with no character above the max 'recommended level' then community standards will ensure that those dungeon skills are only learned far, far too late. And followed by plenty of abuse in party chat.
In most MMOs people got tired of having to bring that one class along to do the dungeon, mage or what ever.
So CC was phased out.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
No, in WoW people got tired of that.
In other games, people enjoy having unique classes.
So they will phase out tanks and healers next then? You need those two classes in most MMOs to do group work.
No, in WoW people got tired of that.
In other games, people enjoy having unique classes.
Pure CC classes have always been the most enjoyable class for me to play. In my experience as playing an enchanter in EQ I always got group invites as soon as I logged on. It was nice being as in demand as a cleric or tank, but still get to have a playstyle that suited me perfectly. I played a coercer in EQ2 until they released Nagafen.
Im actually thinking about going back to EQ2 just so I can enjoy the playstyle again.
I'm sorry for the confusion, but I was trying to list classes that focus mostly (or at least half) on CC. I know in some of the games listed there are other classes that have some CC skills, but they aren't CC classes. For example:
Rogue : He can stun etc. but he's not really geared towards handle multiple targets.
Warrior / Guardian / Warden / Etc.: Basically the tank. He can hold multiple mobs but that's not generally concidered CC either. He isn't really mitigating them so much as forces them to focus on himself.
Bright Wizards / Sorcs do have some CC sure (and perhaps WAR is one of the worst examples up there) they don't really focus on it. They disable a single target at most and try to focus fire (dps). Magus / Engineer is a combination of of pressure DPS and CC (or as close as that game comes to a CC class). It's true that CC skills are spread out much more than in other games, but they are the only classes that are really focused on it.
While it's true that many CC skills (stuns, knockdowns, etc.) exist across multiple (or nowadays all) classes, there are still classes that are 'focused' on disabling multiple targets to help out the group.
For example, take WoW. If you're in a raid and you get a lot of adds that your tank can't handle, do you think a rogue is going to single-handedly deal with them? Probably not. The group is going to rely on either a mage or warlock to handle that problem if they don't have an off tank or if the off tank is busy as well.
So they will phase out tanks and healers next then? You need those two classes in most MMOs to do group work.
Nah, not phase out. It's all about the hybrid.
Instead of having a single class that can perform a role, you give each class the ability to do a couple of different ones. Some classes can tank and heal. Some can DPS and CC, etc.
You're not 100% reliant on a single class to perform a single necessary role.
The underlying concept is, of course, to make grouping less of a hassle.
CC/debuffers are going the same way as the rest of the "pure" classes.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Obviously it's a waste of my time to converse with people who started playing MMORPGs with World of Warcraft, and therefore assume that crowd control primarily = sheeping and sleeping.
I'm not entirely sure why you and that guy with the ewok avatar turned pompous and condescending when I pointed out that your specific definition of the term "crowd control" clearly isn't shared by everyone, and at this point, I don't really care. We can all be pissy with each other and leave it at that.
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
Obviously it's a waste of my time to converse with people who started playing MMORPGs with World of Warcraft, and therefore assume that crowd control primarily = sheeping and sleeping.
Now, that's just blatant trolling.
I don't know about Axehilt, but my first MMO was Ultima Online back in 1997.
Looking at the "veteran list" in your signature, I'd say you joined the genre in, say .. 2001?
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
This is true. Also are CC classes very hard to balance with the rest of the classes.
But I for one don't miss them much. I am not to keen on CC abilities, particularly in PvP.
This thread makes me sad. Even to this day I miss my Enchanter from EQ. No other class in any game as come close to the enjoyment I got from my Enchanter.
I'm of to cry in my pillow.