If you dont like RPG's then don't play them..RPG's always have quests or "encounters' that give XP since the dawn of AD&D...its either that or kill 100000 mobs to gain 1 point in a sword skill or 10000000 mobs to get enough exp to level. Its all the same in the end...but Quests should be somewhat story driven enough to hide the grind. Unfortunately thats not how most MMO's are...which is sad.
A lot of the quests today are pretty crappy and pointless like is there really any need to send me out to kill X many bears to get 5 paws? I agree the quest systems are borked...they need to be utilized better especially at low level..but I do not agree that Quest for Exp is stupid..thats part of the whole Role Playing part....to bad MMO quest writers don't actually make it a role..they just make it a job with "Kill Bears to get 5 bear paws".
btw Everquest does have quests...they just didn't rely on quests and didn't hold your hand witha big fat ! over the character's head.
Best quest ever...Ranger Epic Bow ... i started that quest at level 1...harvesting away till I got all the harvestable parts.
Many people (myself included) find questing preferable to standing in one place repeatedly killing the same type of monster over and over until the amount of XP it rewards is so miniscule that you are compelled to go stand somewhere else and do the same thing all over again.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Ok, so this is a thing that is basically in every new MMORPG, questing for exp. How many new MMORPGs have a ton of NPCs giving out a ton of useless and meaningless quests that no one reads, and for what, to tell the dumb player where to go? Really, pretty soon 5 year olds will be able to handle MMORPGs. NPC tells you where to go, and you look on your minimap for a freaking arrow, and you assume you have to do something there. Only at that point do you actually even look at what the quest says. Anyway, the problem with these questing systems is they are totally meaningless. They make you do what the designers want. You can't even roam around in a game like WoW, because you would be wasting time. You can just grind quests where the designers want you to level. No good quests in a certain area? Too bad, you can't grind there. If you grind there, it'll take you twice as long to level.
There is really no immersion or depth in any game that has this kind of system. Like in Everquest, an MMORPG with no quests, it's like you have no idea at all what to do when you play the game. You do things, like talk to NPCs or players and then you have to actually explore, and figure out where things are and where to go. You have to figure out where to level, what NPCs to kill, where other zones are, etc. That is how all MMORPGs should be. I'm sick of these MMORPGs assuming players are total retards and leading them around everywhere with markers on minimaps and NPCs that ruin the game for players. Seriously, I don't want some NPC to tell me exactly where something is. And I don't even want the NPC to bother me unless he has some really interesting and meaningful quest (maybe an epic quest or something?) It's just annoying that newer MMORPGs have no immersion and you always feel out of character. And really, what is the point of levels in WoW, when exping to 75 is so mindlessly trivial? There isn't immersion in trivial bullshit games like that. How about this, an MMORPG where NPCs don't give out any quests? That way players can think for themselves again and maybe not get dumber by playing your shitty MMORPG?
Whether quests are stupid, ok your view.
But you say in EQ people talk to NPC and what? explore the world? Oh wow, what EQ you play back then, back in the days when EQ was the game in the world. What do people do in EQ then? Talk to NPC? For what? A handful quests mostly broken, or that long ass long boring grinding long chain called epic weapon, which is long b/c, for a shaman you need to stay under water for 48 hours to get the spawn. Yeah that is the NPC quest in EQ, which apart from the epic weapon (I was 60 then), no one even think it is funny. I fell asleep underwater after waiting for 31 hours, failed to refresh the water breath and drowned. I have to start all over again.
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Oh yeah you can go explore and figure out where else you can theoretically level. But you cannot solo anywhere, and unless other people are already setting up camps controlling the zone, good luck exploring, and be alone there.
Some players liked the downtime and the boring camping ,plus the epic quests. You didn't like it then that's fine,their are plenty of people who would gladly bring these things back to mmorpg.
Easy mode is where it's at these days,lack of community is where it's at this days,plus you have small linear instanced worlds is where it's at today. Grouping with strangers to get things done or to level,grouping now depends on whether you have the right gear.
I would be happy for a mmorpg to bring back the hardcore elements of EQ1.
I absolutley agree with the original poster. What is the difference than I going out and deciding to slaughter 15 beetles and having an NPC tell me to do so? I personally can think for myself and would rather get the same amount of xp I would have gotten for completing the stupid beetle quest for killing the same number of beetles.
I want to make my own quest, decide where I want to go, kill what I want to kill, for the reasons I want to kill them. Maybe the beetles have some drops that is useds in crafting that I want, there is my reason to kill beetles. I don't need Bob the farmer from town asking me to do so.
For the most part, both have been pretty weak and "cheap" in MMOs. The old days of mob grinding had some positives, but yea, we were really just camping static, predictable spawns with little to no risk or challenge. The only risk/challenge involved was being aware and dealing with adds. Thats it. The rest was just planting your ass in one spot for hours at a time.
On the other hand, the quest based shift has NOT been a clear step up. For a while, yea it seems less boring and repetitive. Eventually though, you realize that you're mostly just watching your GPS, running back and forth from A to B to C with little to no challenge or thought. On top of that, questing causes a ton of issues with grouping and really kills immersion when you realize every quest you complete basically just resets for the next 2,000 players to do.
I honestly don't know how you could implement a "great" quest system in an MMO. No one has done it so far. Maybe some one will take the public quest idea and run with it. Could be some potential there.
I think there are plenty of ways to improve mob grinding, some of which have already been implemented (dynamic spawns, less predictable AI, better combat mechanics, non-linear zones, complex faction systems, etc).
So what you're saying is you want to explore the world without any help and mindlessly grind mobs for xp instead?
I've played this type of game before. It was actually more fun than you'd think. It was called Lineage II (pre expansions). I'm getting a little bit tired of the cookie cutter quest system of MMORPGs as well. I think I'd rather not have it than be pointed around by an arrow and compete for 5 specific mobs or items with the rest of the player base.
If they have quests they shouldn't be for XP, but rather focused on immersion with dialogue consequences for making insulting choices. They should also have cosmetic rewards so the RPG aspect has a point... like a new cloth dress or suit.
Yeah, right now I feel the quest are offering me little to nothing. Its all about clicking "accept" then rusch to quest marker. What about adding more 'mini'faction's within each major faction as well. MMO's as they are now, are quite black & white. its either totally good or utterly eveil, little in between. You already know you have no consequence accepting one quest from an NPC. MMO's have much to learn from SRPG's there.
I also played games with no quests before, Anarchy Online. It was awful to wait for a spot in a team or if there wasnt any teams around. I am glad those days are gone.
There is really no immersion or depth in any game that has this kind of system. Like in Everquest, an MMORPG with no quests, it's like you have no idea at all what to do when you play the game. You do things, like talk to NPCs or players and then you have to actually explore, and figure out where things are and where to go. You have to figure out where to level, what NPCs to kill, where other zones are, etc.
LOL .. it is WORSE to camp the SAME 3 NPCs for weeks. Thank you very much. There is a reason why I QUIT EQ. WOW leveling is 100x more fun with more variety than killing the same spawn 10000000 times leveling in EQ.
And who talked to NPCs in EQ??? You go to the most efficient place to level (like that temple with lizard man in the mid-30 levels) and stay there.
There is really no immersion or depth in any game that has this kind of system. Like in Everquest, an MMORPG with no quests, it's like you have no idea at all what to do when you play the game. You do things, like talk to NPCs or players and then you have to actually explore, and figure out where things are and where to go. You have to figure out where to level, what NPCs to kill, where other zones are, etc.
LOL .. it is WORSE to camp the SAME 3 NPCs for weeks. Thank you very much. There is a reason why I QUIT EQ. WOW leveling is 100x more fun with more variety than killing the same spawn 10000000 times leveling in EQ.
And who talked to NPCs in EQ??? You go to the most efficient place to level (like that temple with lizard man in the mid-30 levels) and stay there.
Questing for exp is one of the biggest things wrong with modern MMORPGs. Developers now have to make hundreds and hundreds of throwaway quests, with no story, with a GPS targeting system showing everyone just where to go, in order for the game to function. If there aren't enough quests, people run around like chickens with their heads cut off, cause they're so used to being dragged to the next area they're SUPPOSED to go to go to the next quest. It makes it so that soloing is the fastest way to level up, and even when people group for group steps, no one talks, they just auto run to the glowing waypoint on their map and then disband when the boss is dead. It's a horrible system.
Quests, should be done for stories, and interesting loot worth making a story about. WoW does not have quests, it has tasks, and calling them quests is an insult to 50 years of RPGs. Having glowing marks over NPC heads destroys any sense of immersion. In DAoC I walked around talking to townsfolk, listening to stories about their life, sometimes it resulted in a quest, sometimes not, but the cities actually felt alive, not stupid quest hubs.
Farming mobs with other people is where I met almost all my current online friends, adventuring into unknown dungeons, killing monsters, feeling heroic, not gathering up bloody boar hooves.
Meh. Many people (myself included) find questing preferable to standing in one place repeatedly killing the same type of monster over and over until the amount of XP it rewards is so miniscule that you are compelled to go stand somewhere else and do the same thing all over again.
I concur... this was how I felt in EQ classic. On the other hand, I have to admit loading up your queue in the quest logs can become as monotonous over time just as much as camping spawns. Granted you get to see more of the world questing which isn't a bad thing. I just wish there was more of a variety. Right now the mindset for MMO's is "To gain power you need to level your character. To gain levels you need XP. To get xp you need to kill mobs, or quest." That's it, that's the backbone to most MMO's from past to date.
Personally, I like how DDO did the way they reward XP. The only other games I've played that are different from Grind/Quest are Ultima Online and Eve Online. I'm not saying these games are 100% what I'm looking for, but it's a nice change of pace in how making your character more powerful is done.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
I don't mind quest for exp every once in awhile, but it should be an option only, not only means to gain decent exp. Problem with a lot of the newer games released these past few years, is that a vast majority of them are forced quest-on-a-rail design.
I don't mind quest for exp every once in awhile, but it should be an option only, not only means to gain decent exp. Problem with a lot of the newer games released these past few years, is that a vast majority of them are forced quest-on-a-rail design.
Yup. Once upon a time a quest was actually a quest. They were done to take a break from just hunting down badies. A nice story, a nice group encounter, and some nice reward, but you couldn't level off of it. Well, some you could.
How many new MMORPGs have a ton of NPCs giving out a ton of useless and meaningless quests that no one reads, and for what, to tell the dumb player where to go?
Quests are fine, if they have a story and are interesting. Some MMO's got that, some don't. Either way, if you don't bother reading it, don't expect the quest to be that interesting. Also, don't assume that "nobody reads them" or that they have no meaning.
Sounds to me like you play the game in a way that is not fun, therefore it isn't. You lack the patience to read the quest, absorb its purpose beyond the basic mechanics of what you're supposed to DO, and for some reason are surprised when you don't enjoy it.
Perhaps MMO's aren't for you. Maybe a good FPS would be better suited for your playstyle.
I don't mind quest for exp every once in awhile, but it should be an option only, not only means to gain decent exp. Problem with a lot of the newer games released these past few years, is that a vast majority of them are forced quest-on-a-rail design.
Games like what? The past few games I've played (LotRO, AoC, CoX, Eve) didn't require any questing outside of the tutorial. You have to run a handful of quests to get to Moria and Lothlorien in LotRO, that's about it.
When I run quests in an MMO, I want an exp reward. Even if I'm going on the quests for the reward item I still want exp.
I don't want to have to run a quest for an hour or so to get an item and then have to go setup a macro to kill creatures so that I can get high enough level to go on the next quest for the next item.
Why on earth would you NOT want to get exp while questing. You're having fun running a quest, you're getting a reward item that might be useful and you're getting progress in your leveling all at the same time. Yes let's make MMOs less fun.
It's that "having fun" part that's the sticking point. Doing a quest once in a while can be fun. Doing nothing but quests which are really just run-and-fetch chores is definately NOT fun for me. Especially because you will be doing it all alone. Mob grinding may be boring in it's basic nature but most of the time you did it with a group. And most of the time there were other groups around the area. So the whole thing was much more social which made it better. And the way things worked in EQ things could get chaotic enough often enough to keep things interesting and downright fun, especially with a death penalty that actually hurt and gave you something to fear.
I couldn't even begin to count the number of times in EQ when my pulse was pounding, my adrenaline was flowing, and I was actually excited, scared, tense, etc. and then either fist-pounding pissed or feeling relief wash over me. Good or bad at least it made you feel something. These modern quest grinding games are SOOOO f-ing boring. It's like having an endless chore jar filled to the brim and no matter how many chores you complete the jar never runs empty. And the chores themselves are so trivial and boring and there is no risk or excitement of any kind involved in it....it's just horrible. It's like forever being told to take out the trash and shovel the snow off the walk and clean your room and this and that and more and another untill you go mad with the endless tedium of it all because what you really want to do is have fun and adventure but all you ever get to do is chores.
I've played all the major MMOs and many of the smaller ones too. I also did play EQ.
When I was grinding mobs for xp in any MMO, I NEVER socialized. However I did when running quests. I also hardly grouped when grinding mobs, but I would if it was a game that game the group xp bonus just for the sake of getting the bonus. There wasn't any talking in those groups just killing. Also that pure mob grinding causes people to macro, so socializing takes even more of a beating. Just a bunch of bots running around killing and not talking.
EQ forced me to cause those heart pounding moments out of sheer boredom. I was that guy that would run into the gnolls dungeon, stealth to the bottom as my rogue and then train every mob back to the top. Because it provided me a break from friggin killing mobs all day to progress (and it was funny to watch people get caught in it).
But the real point is, I haven't played an MMO that prevents you from grinding mobs if that's what you want to do. WoW, LotRO, WAR, EQ/EQ II, AC, AO, UO etc etc etc. If you want to mindlessly grind mobs, then go do it and have your fun. But most of those same games offer lots of quests because it's what the rest of us want to do. Luckily the two can coexist and not interfere with each other. I can go quest and socialize and you can go kill the same mob 3000 times. Both of us can get xp and advance our characters doing what we want. So what exactly is the problem with quests giving xp?
Quests had a better "feel" when they were restricted (mostly) to epic and class quests sprinkled in with mob killling. Turning MMOs into nothing but a quest train was just a bad move. Every one gets into this full-on sprint, from one quest to the next, through a series of extremely linear, self contained zones. You can't mix level ranges in a zone because *gasp* new players might stumble into some thing above their level and die. God knows how awful that would be, to die and have to walk back from the spawn point 10 feet away...
Then, for some weird reason, there's this idea that questing absolutely has to give better xp than mob killing and even that you shouldn't be killing mobs when there are quests out there. Sorry, when you have a lot of generic, scripted, mindless quests I'd rather just find my own entertainment some where in the game world.
I hate the new quest-to-level mentality of games these days as well. The vast majority of quests are completely meaningless, trivial garbage that exist solely to disguise the "grind" of past games. The only problems is that - in my opinion - running questline after questline is as big a grind as any dungeon crawl you might have found in EQ1. The only difference is the developers are telling you where and how to grind, rather than you deciding for yourself.
I really don't have a problem with questlines as a matter of principle. If you find it enjoyable to run around completing tasks as a primary method of advancement, more power to you. My problem lies in the fact that running questlines if by far the most efficient way to progress in most new games (both in terms of exp gain and item aquisition), leaving those who prefer to find their own adventures as a disadvantage. I'm not the kind of player that really cares about leveling in the most efficient way possible, but it can be very challenging to find like-minded players to do a dungeon crawl with when they're all out doing solo quests.
What I would like to see is a sort of blend between EQ1 and EQ2. There should absolutely be questlines from start to finish that have you running around from point A to B as much as you want. If that's your preferred method of advancement, you should have every opportunity to play this way. However, there shouldn't be any substantial advantage to leveling this way. The exp gain and item aquisition rate should be on par with "grinding" mobs (although I actually enjoy tackling dungeons with friends so this is not a "grind "to me). If the developers want to add an "x marks the spot" mini-map component to these quests, I'll do my best to not cry foul (even though I abhor such a dreadfully brain-dead mechanic). Additionally, I would love to see a few substantive quests every few levels similar to EQ2's heritage quests which have you following clues and exploring dungeons. These quests would not have a mini-map component, would take a substantial amount of time to complete, and would offer a worthwhile reward upon completion.
If this were the quest system, I would finally be happy in an MMO again. I wouldn't be penalized for killing bandits along the roads or slaying skeletons in some ruins some where. I could travel across a continent to "grind" mobs (again, not a grind to me) as a whim takes me. Others, who would rather collect rat tails and deliver packages from town to town would be free to do so. Everyone would be happy. And every few levels, the different playstyles could join forces to complete a more epic quest involving lots of lore and providing players with a substantive reward at the end.
What do you guys think? Is this feasible or even desirable? I think so.
I think one reason why quests seem boring for some people is: most people don't read the description of the quests. The longer descriptions are sometimes holding interesting stories. But most players are like "oh noes, wall of text crushes me! I wan't to relax and play a game, and not read!!". Well, their fault.
Sure, some games have only horribly boring quest descriptions without a story or anything, but in other games the stories are fascinating, like reading a good short story book. But most people will never find that out, because reading seems like a chore to them.
Another reason is the help the games give. When you have a game that always points you into the right direction, maybe even automatically walks you to where the quest take place, and does nearly everything for you except pushing a button once a minute, then no wonder it's boring.
Sure, the devs are right to some degree. If they don't give the users these options then most users play with addons that do the same. Still: having the game do all the stuff for you makes it boring.
So in short:
Yes, some games just suck and their quests are boring. But other games have still great quests, yet some people find them boring, because they don't want to listen to the story the game tries to tell. And people always complain if they have to use their brain, so the games are getting easier and easier and easier. And in the end there is not much left to do.
Both of us can get xp and advance our characters doing what we want. So what exactly is the problem with quests giving xp?
I suspect, because it's not so much that certain players want the option to play the way they want to play, they just want others to NOT be able to play the way they want to play. Or at best, they see it as some big 'leet epeen talking point like it takes some mad skillz to, in this example, not want quests.
This whole forum is inundated with elitist epeen attitudes...
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I like ffa pvp"
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I want huge death penalties"
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I prefer sandbox games."
IMO it's not to prove what game, or game design is better, it's to prove that that person is a hardcore ultral33t mastah who'd pwn anybody at the nonexistent game they're thinking up in their heads, and that the reason they get pwned in games that actually exist is because there's some game mechanic that gives other gamers an unfair advantage over them.
Meh. Many people (myself included) find questing preferable to standing in one place repeatedly killing the same type of monster over and over until the amount of XP it rewards is so miniscule that you are compelled to go stand somewhere else and do the same thing all over again.
Questing may be preferable to "standing in on place" as was the norm when you were camping mobs in EQ. My preferred method of advancement is doing an actual dungeon crawl where you start at the entrance and work your way deeper, fighting more difficult mobs along the way. Meaningless questlines that have you collect 10 of this and run around following the blips on your mini-map are far less fun to me than dungeon crawling, which is interestingly referred to as grinding mobs, even though I don't find it a "grind" at all.
Anyway, I think it's a little unfair to suggest you have to either do quest after quest to advance or find a camp and stick to it. There are other ways to "grind" mobs that don't involve standing in one place, and are far more interesting than either of the methods you've described here.
You are right though, I think most would prefer a quest "grind" than the mob "grind", but it would be nice for both playstyles to be rewarded similarly. As it stands, questing is by far the most efficient way to progress and I sometimes feel a little left out in games these days.
Quests are not "fine". They are not fine until the day they have consequences. Right now they are mainly 99% pure BS. You are not feeling you are "helping" anyone particular by doing them quests. How many wolf-pelts do these NPC's really need, considering it was 10.000 players before you that gave them 20 pelts each, and knowing there will be 10.000 more players in the line behind you doing the same.
And game developers expect us to read all this nonsense when it doesnt mean a tad??
There is really no immersion or depth in any game that has this kind of system. Like in Everquest, an MMORPG with no quests, it's like you have no idea at all what to do when you play the game. You do things, like talk to NPCs or players and then you have to actually explore, and figure out where things are and where to go. You have to figure out where to level, what NPCs to kill, where other zones are, etc.
LOL .. it is WORSE to camp the SAME 3 NPCs for weeks. Thank you very much. There is a reason why I QUIT EQ. WOW leveling is 100x more fun with more variety than killing the same spawn 10000000 times leveling in EQ.
And who talked to NPCs in EQ??? You go to the most efficient place to level (like that temple with lizard man in the mid-30 levels) and stay there.
You do not have to keep the previous time it took to level along with killing monsters for xp instead of quest for xp. Say a quest has you kill 10 beetles for x amount of xp, you could always just kill 10 beetles for x amount of xp without the quest. Give the player multiple monsters to kill and some interesting places to kill them in and let them decide what they want to "quest" for. I don't need a npc to tell me what to kill, let me have the freedom to "quest" for whatever I feel like.
Maybe an npc drops some crafting supplies I need, there is my "quest". Maybe there is a named monster in the bottom of a dungeon that might drop a nice item, that could be my "quest". The point is my quest should be whatever I want it to be. Remove xp from quest and put it on the monsters we kill again. You can still have the same leveling curve with that model.
Both of us can get xp and advance our characters doing what we want. So what exactly is the problem with quests giving xp?
I suspect, because it's not so much that certain players want the option to play the way they want to play, they just want others to NOT be able to play the way they want to play. Or at best, they see it as some big 'leet epeen talking point like it takes some mad skillz to, in this example, not want quests.
This whole forum is inundated with elitist epeen attitudes...
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I like ffa pvp"
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I want huge death penalties"
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I prefer sandbox games."
IMO it's not to prove what game, or game design is better, it's to prove that that person is a hardcore ultral33t mastah who'd pwn anybody at the nonexistent game they're thinking up in their heads, and that the reason they get pwned in games that actually exist is because there's some game mechanic that gives other gamers an unfair advantage over them.
Pretty much the people who live in their mother's basements want the mob grind to matter. Losers from the old days of gaming.
Just think of it like this; The quest giver is too weak/busy/whatever to travel far for some reason, and they circle in crayon on your map where they think the stuff/mob is. There, now ever quest has meaning. Helping the helpless :P
Not all quests are boring. The books 2-7 of LOTRo is really good.
Not all quests are good, not all songs are good. But there are good ones. One good song will give me a life time memory, I hum whenever I hear it again, anywhere. One good questline and I keep recalling them on and off.
I liked the book quests too. It had a nice epic feeling to me. Too bad I didn't enjoy the game more overall.
I can't stand questing as the main mechanic to leveling, but special quests, epics, something worthwhile, I always enjoyed, like the books, or the epic in EQ, the epic armor set in daoc and a few others there were quite enjoyable. Even liked a few in wow such as thunderfury quest.
I guess when I think of doing a quest, it is something special, not mundane like these menial tasks given like get me 10 rat ears. I mean, you don't call going to the store for milk a quest, it is a chore, or task. That is what most "quests" are in MMOs today, chores.
The term quest is overused, when jobs, tasks, missions and other things should be used instead. Quests should be something special and specific to your class/faction. If they are kill N boars for X cash, that would be a job. Go attack that fort would likely be a mission. Fedex could be jobs or tasks. etc.
You do not have to keep the previous time it took to level along with killing monsters for xp instead of quest for xp. Say a quest has you kill 10 beetles for x amount of xp, you could always just kill 10 beetles for x amount of xp without the quest. Give the player multiple monsters to kill and some interesting places to kill them in and let them decide what they want to "quest" for. I don't need a npc to tell me what to kill, let me have the freedom to "quest" for whatever I feel like.
Maybe an npc drops some crafting supplies I need, there is my "quest". Maybe there is a named monster in the bottom of a dungeon that might drop a nice item, that could be my "quest". The point is my quest should be whatever I want it to be. Remove xp from quest and put it on the monsters we kill again. You can still have the same leveling curve with that model.
I completely agree. I used to consider myself a pelt hunter in EQ1. I would roam the Commonlands looking for bears to hunt because their pelts could be quite valuable. That was my quest, kill bears for their pelts and sell them to interested crafters. I didn't need a quest to tell me what to do, I made the decision myself. And given that there was no auction house at that time, buying and selling commodities was a game in and of itself.
Again, I don't mind the existence of questlines if that helps give your MMO playing some direction, but I do have problems with the fact that they offer the most efficient method of advancement and penalize those who'd rather make up their own mind. Everyone should be able to advance similarly regardless of their playstyle of choice.
Comments
cant you do this, with or without questing?
No gun at head telling you to quest
If you dont like RPG's then don't play them..RPG's always have quests or "encounters' that give XP since the dawn of AD&D...its either that or kill 100000 mobs to gain 1 point in a sword skill or 10000000 mobs to get enough exp to level. Its all the same in the end...but Quests should be somewhat story driven enough to hide the grind. Unfortunately thats not how most MMO's are...which is sad.
A lot of the quests today are pretty crappy and pointless like is there really any need to send me out to kill X many bears to get 5 paws? I agree the quest systems are borked...they need to be utilized better especially at low level..but I do not agree that Quest for Exp is stupid..thats part of the whole Role Playing part....to bad MMO quest writers don't actually make it a role..they just make it a job with "Kill Bears to get 5 bear paws".
btw Everquest does have quests...they just didn't rely on quests and didn't hold your hand witha big fat ! over the character's head.
Best quest ever...Ranger Epic Bow ... i started that quest at level 1...harvesting away till I got all the harvestable parts.
Meh.
Many people (myself included) find questing preferable to standing in one place repeatedly killing the same type of monster over and over until the amount of XP it rewards is so miniscule that you are compelled to go stand somewhere else and do the same thing all over again.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Whether quests are stupid, ok your view.
But you say in EQ people talk to NPC and what? explore the world? Oh wow, what EQ you play back then, back in the days when EQ was the game in the world. What do people do in EQ then? Talk to NPC? For what? A handful quests mostly broken, or that long ass long boring grinding long chain called epic weapon, which is long b/c, for a shaman you need to stay under water for 48 hours to get the spawn. Yeah that is the NPC quest in EQ, which apart from the epic weapon (I was 60 then), no one even think it is funny. I fell asleep underwater after waiting for 31 hours, failed to refresh the water breath and drowned. I have to start all over again.
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Oh yeah you can go explore and figure out where else you can theoretically level. But you cannot solo anywhere, and unless other people are already setting up camps controlling the zone, good luck exploring, and be alone there.
Some players liked the downtime and the boring camping ,plus the epic quests. You didn't like it then that's fine,their are plenty of people who would gladly bring these things back to mmorpg.
Easy mode is where it's at these days,lack of community is where it's at this days,plus you have small linear instanced worlds is where it's at today. Grouping with strangers to get things done or to level,grouping now depends on whether you have the right gear.
I would be happy for a mmorpg to bring back the hardcore elements of EQ1.
I absolutley agree with the original poster. What is the difference than I going out and deciding to slaughter 15 beetles and having an NPC tell me to do so? I personally can think for myself and would rather get the same amount of xp I would have gotten for completing the stupid beetle quest for killing the same number of beetles.
I want to make my own quest, decide where I want to go, kill what I want to kill, for the reasons I want to kill them. Maybe the beetles have some drops that is useds in crafting that I want, there is my reason to kill beetles. I don't need Bob the farmer from town asking me to do so.
Mindless mob grinding/camping sucks
Mindless quest training sucks
For the most part, both have been pretty weak and "cheap" in MMOs. The old days of mob grinding had some positives, but yea, we were really just camping static, predictable spawns with little to no risk or challenge. The only risk/challenge involved was being aware and dealing with adds. Thats it. The rest was just planting your ass in one spot for hours at a time.
On the other hand, the quest based shift has NOT been a clear step up. For a while, yea it seems less boring and repetitive. Eventually though, you realize that you're mostly just watching your GPS, running back and forth from A to B to C with little to no challenge or thought. On top of that, questing causes a ton of issues with grouping and really kills immersion when you realize every quest you complete basically just resets for the next 2,000 players to do.
I honestly don't know how you could implement a "great" quest system in an MMO. No one has done it so far. Maybe some one will take the public quest idea and run with it. Could be some potential there.
I think there are plenty of ways to improve mob grinding, some of which have already been implemented (dynamic spawns, less predictable AI, better combat mechanics, non-linear zones, complex faction systems, etc).
I've played this type of game before. It was actually more fun than you'd think. It was called Lineage II (pre expansions). I'm getting a little bit tired of the cookie cutter quest system of MMORPGs as well. I think I'd rather not have it than be pointed around by an arrow and compete for 5 specific mobs or items with the rest of the player base.
If they have quests they shouldn't be for XP, but rather focused on immersion with dialogue consequences for making insulting choices. They should also have cosmetic rewards so the RPG aspect has a point... like a new cloth dress or suit.
Yeah, right now I feel the quest are offering me little to nothing. Its all about clicking "accept" then rusch to quest marker. What about adding more 'mini'faction's within each major faction as well. MMO's as they are now, are quite black & white. its either totally good or utterly eveil, little in between. You already know you have no consequence accepting one quest from an NPC. MMO's have much to learn from SRPG's there.
I also played games with no quests before, Anarchy Online. It was awful to wait for a spot in a team or if there wasnt any teams around. I am glad those days are gone.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
LOL .. it is WORSE to camp the SAME 3 NPCs for weeks. Thank you very much. There is a reason why I QUIT EQ. WOW leveling is 100x more fun with more variety than killing the same spawn 10000000 times leveling in EQ.
And who talked to NPCs in EQ??? You go to the most efficient place to level (like that temple with lizard man in the mid-30 levels) and stay there.
LOL .. it is WORSE to camp the SAME 3 NPCs for weeks. Thank you very much. There is a reason why I QUIT EQ. WOW leveling is 100x more fun with more variety than killing the same spawn 10000000 times leveling in EQ.
And who talked to NPCs in EQ??? You go to the most efficient place to level (like that temple with lizard man in the mid-30 levels) and stay there.
Questing for exp is one of the biggest things wrong with modern MMORPGs. Developers now have to make hundreds and hundreds of throwaway quests, with no story, with a GPS targeting system showing everyone just where to go, in order for the game to function. If there aren't enough quests, people run around like chickens with their heads cut off, cause they're so used to being dragged to the next area they're SUPPOSED to go to go to the next quest. It makes it so that soloing is the fastest way to level up, and even when people group for group steps, no one talks, they just auto run to the glowing waypoint on their map and then disband when the boss is dead. It's a horrible system.
Quests, should be done for stories, and interesting loot worth making a story about. WoW does not have quests, it has tasks, and calling them quests is an insult to 50 years of RPGs. Having glowing marks over NPC heads destroys any sense of immersion. In DAoC I walked around talking to townsfolk, listening to stories about their life, sometimes it resulted in a quest, sometimes not, but the cities actually felt alive, not stupid quest hubs.
Farming mobs with other people is where I met almost all my current online friends, adventuring into unknown dungeons, killing monsters, feeling heroic, not gathering up bloody boar hooves.
Darkfall Travelogues!
I concur... this was how I felt in EQ classic. On the other hand, I have to admit loading up your queue in the quest logs can become as monotonous over time just as much as camping spawns. Granted you get to see more of the world questing which isn't a bad thing. I just wish there was more of a variety. Right now the mindset for MMO's is "To gain power you need to level your character. To gain levels you need XP. To get xp you need to kill mobs, or quest." That's it, that's the backbone to most MMO's from past to date.
Personally, I like how DDO did the way they reward XP. The only other games I've played that are different from Grind/Quest are Ultima Online and Eve Online. I'm not saying these games are 100% what I'm looking for, but it's a nice change of pace in how making your character more powerful is done.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
I don't mind quest for exp every once in awhile, but it should be an option only, not only means to gain decent exp. Problem with a lot of the newer games released these past few years, is that a vast majority of them are forced quest-on-a-rail design.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
Yup. Once upon a time a quest was actually a quest. They were done to take a break from just hunting down badies. A nice story, a nice group encounter, and some nice reward, but you couldn't level off of it. Well, some you could.
Darkfall Travelogues!
Quests are fine, if they have a story and are interesting. Some MMO's got that, some don't. Either way, if you don't bother reading it, don't expect the quest to be that interesting. Also, don't assume that "nobody reads them" or that they have no meaning.
Sounds to me like you play the game in a way that is not fun, therefore it isn't. You lack the patience to read the quest, absorb its purpose beyond the basic mechanics of what you're supposed to DO, and for some reason are surprised when you don't enjoy it.
Perhaps MMO's aren't for you. Maybe a good FPS would be better suited for your playstyle.
Games like what? The past few games I've played (LotRO, AoC, CoX, Eve) didn't require any questing outside of the tutorial. You have to run a handful of quests to get to Moria and Lothlorien in LotRO, that's about it.
It's that "having fun" part that's the sticking point. Doing a quest once in a while can be fun. Doing nothing but quests which are really just run-and-fetch chores is definately NOT fun for me. Especially because you will be doing it all alone. Mob grinding may be boring in it's basic nature but most of the time you did it with a group. And most of the time there were other groups around the area. So the whole thing was much more social which made it better. And the way things worked in EQ things could get chaotic enough often enough to keep things interesting and downright fun, especially with a death penalty that actually hurt and gave you something to fear.
I couldn't even begin to count the number of times in EQ when my pulse was pounding, my adrenaline was flowing, and I was actually excited, scared, tense, etc. and then either fist-pounding pissed or feeling relief wash over me. Good or bad at least it made you feel something. These modern quest grinding games are SOOOO f-ing boring. It's like having an endless chore jar filled to the brim and no matter how many chores you complete the jar never runs empty. And the chores themselves are so trivial and boring and there is no risk or excitement of any kind involved in it....it's just horrible. It's like forever being told to take out the trash and shovel the snow off the walk and clean your room and this and that and more and another untill you go mad with the endless tedium of it all because what you really want to do is have fun and adventure but all you ever get to do is chores.
I've played all the major MMOs and many of the smaller ones too. I also did play EQ.
When I was grinding mobs for xp in any MMO, I NEVER socialized. However I did when running quests. I also hardly grouped when grinding mobs, but I would if it was a game that game the group xp bonus just for the sake of getting the bonus. There wasn't any talking in those groups just killing. Also that pure mob grinding causes people to macro, so socializing takes even more of a beating. Just a bunch of bots running around killing and not talking.
EQ forced me to cause those heart pounding moments out of sheer boredom. I was that guy that would run into the gnolls dungeon, stealth to the bottom as my rogue and then train every mob back to the top. Because it provided me a break from friggin killing mobs all day to progress (and it was funny to watch people get caught in it).
But the real point is, I haven't played an MMO that prevents you from grinding mobs if that's what you want to do. WoW, LotRO, WAR, EQ/EQ II, AC, AO, UO etc etc etc. If you want to mindlessly grind mobs, then go do it and have your fun. But most of those same games offer lots of quests because it's what the rest of us want to do. Luckily the two can coexist and not interfere with each other. I can go quest and socialize and you can go kill the same mob 3000 times. Both of us can get xp and advance our characters doing what we want. So what exactly is the problem with quests giving xp?
Quests had a better "feel" when they were restricted (mostly) to epic and class quests sprinkled in with mob killling. Turning MMOs into nothing but a quest train was just a bad move. Every one gets into this full-on sprint, from one quest to the next, through a series of extremely linear, self contained zones. You can't mix level ranges in a zone because *gasp* new players might stumble into some thing above their level and die. God knows how awful that would be, to die and have to walk back from the spawn point 10 feet away...
Then, for some weird reason, there's this idea that questing absolutely has to give better xp than mob killing and even that you shouldn't be killing mobs when there are quests out there. Sorry, when you have a lot of generic, scripted, mindless quests I'd rather just find my own entertainment some where in the game world.
I hate the new quest-to-level mentality of games these days as well. The vast majority of quests are completely meaningless, trivial garbage that exist solely to disguise the "grind" of past games. The only problems is that - in my opinion - running questline after questline is as big a grind as any dungeon crawl you might have found in EQ1. The only difference is the developers are telling you where and how to grind, rather than you deciding for yourself.
I really don't have a problem with questlines as a matter of principle. If you find it enjoyable to run around completing tasks as a primary method of advancement, more power to you. My problem lies in the fact that running questlines if by far the most efficient way to progress in most new games (both in terms of exp gain and item aquisition), leaving those who prefer to find their own adventures as a disadvantage. I'm not the kind of player that really cares about leveling in the most efficient way possible, but it can be very challenging to find like-minded players to do a dungeon crawl with when they're all out doing solo quests.
What I would like to see is a sort of blend between EQ1 and EQ2. There should absolutely be questlines from start to finish that have you running around from point A to B as much as you want. If that's your preferred method of advancement, you should have every opportunity to play this way. However, there shouldn't be any substantial advantage to leveling this way. The exp gain and item aquisition rate should be on par with "grinding" mobs (although I actually enjoy tackling dungeons with friends so this is not a "grind "to me). If the developers want to add an "x marks the spot" mini-map component to these quests, I'll do my best to not cry foul (even though I abhor such a dreadfully brain-dead mechanic). Additionally, I would love to see a few substantive quests every few levels similar to EQ2's heritage quests which have you following clues and exploring dungeons. These quests would not have a mini-map component, would take a substantial amount of time to complete, and would offer a worthwhile reward upon completion.
If this were the quest system, I would finally be happy in an MMO again. I wouldn't be penalized for killing bandits along the roads or slaying skeletons in some ruins some where. I could travel across a continent to "grind" mobs (again, not a grind to me) as a whim takes me. Others, who would rather collect rat tails and deliver packages from town to town would be free to do so. Everyone would be happy. And every few levels, the different playstyles could join forces to complete a more epic quest involving lots of lore and providing players with a substantive reward at the end.
What do you guys think? Is this feasible or even desirable? I think so.
I think one reason why quests seem boring for some people is: most people don't read the description of the quests. The longer descriptions are sometimes holding interesting stories. But most players are like "oh noes, wall of text crushes me! I wan't to relax and play a game, and not read!!". Well, their fault.
Sure, some games have only horribly boring quest descriptions without a story or anything, but in other games the stories are fascinating, like reading a good short story book. But most people will never find that out, because reading seems like a chore to them.
Another reason is the help the games give. When you have a game that always points you into the right direction, maybe even automatically walks you to where the quest take place, and does nearly everything for you except pushing a button once a minute, then no wonder it's boring.
Sure, the devs are right to some degree. If they don't give the users these options then most users play with addons that do the same. Still: having the game do all the stuff for you makes it boring.
So in short:
Yes, some games just suck and their quests are boring. But other games have still great quests, yet some people find them boring, because they don't want to listen to the story the game tries to tell. And people always complain if they have to use their brain, so the games are getting easier and easier and easier. And in the end there is not much left to do.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
I suspect, because it's not so much that certain players want the option to play the way they want to play, they just want others to NOT be able to play the way they want to play. Or at best, they see it as some big 'leet epeen talking point like it takes some mad skillz to, in this example, not want quests.
This whole forum is inundated with elitist epeen attitudes...
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I like ffa pvp"
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I want huge death penalties"
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I prefer sandbox games."
IMO it's not to prove what game, or game design is better, it's to prove that that person is a hardcore ultral33t mastah who'd pwn anybody at the nonexistent game they're thinking up in their heads, and that the reason they get pwned in games that actually exist is because there's some game mechanic that gives other gamers an unfair advantage over them.
Questing may be preferable to "standing in on place" as was the norm when you were camping mobs in EQ. My preferred method of advancement is doing an actual dungeon crawl where you start at the entrance and work your way deeper, fighting more difficult mobs along the way. Meaningless questlines that have you collect 10 of this and run around following the blips on your mini-map are far less fun to me than dungeon crawling, which is interestingly referred to as grinding mobs, even though I don't find it a "grind" at all.
Anyway, I think it's a little unfair to suggest you have to either do quest after quest to advance or find a camp and stick to it. There are other ways to "grind" mobs that don't involve standing in one place, and are far more interesting than either of the methods you've described here.
You are right though, I think most would prefer a quest "grind" than the mob "grind", but it would be nice for both playstyles to be rewarded similarly. As it stands, questing is by far the most efficient way to progress and I sometimes feel a little left out in games these days.
Quests are not "fine". They are not fine until the day they have consequences. Right now they are mainly 99% pure BS. You are not feeling you are "helping" anyone particular by doing them quests. How many wolf-pelts do these NPC's really need, considering it was 10.000 players before you that gave them 20 pelts each, and knowing there will be 10.000 more players in the line behind you doing the same.
And game developers expect us to read all this nonsense when it doesnt mean a tad??
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
LOL .. it is WORSE to camp the SAME 3 NPCs for weeks. Thank you very much. There is a reason why I QUIT EQ. WOW leveling is 100x more fun with more variety than killing the same spawn 10000000 times leveling in EQ.
And who talked to NPCs in EQ??? You go to the most efficient place to level (like that temple with lizard man in the mid-30 levels) and stay there.
You do not have to keep the previous time it took to level along with killing monsters for xp instead of quest for xp. Say a quest has you kill 10 beetles for x amount of xp, you could always just kill 10 beetles for x amount of xp without the quest. Give the player multiple monsters to kill and some interesting places to kill them in and let them decide what they want to "quest" for. I don't need a npc to tell me what to kill, let me have the freedom to "quest" for whatever I feel like.
Maybe an npc drops some crafting supplies I need, there is my "quest". Maybe there is a named monster in the bottom of a dungeon that might drop a nice item, that could be my "quest". The point is my quest should be whatever I want it to be. Remove xp from quest and put it on the monsters we kill again. You can still have the same leveling curve with that model.
I suspect, because it's not so much that certain players want the option to play the way they want to play, they just want others to NOT be able to play the way they want to play. Or at best, they see it as some big 'leet epeen talking point like it takes some mad skillz to, in this example, not want quests.
This whole forum is inundated with elitist epeen attitudes...
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I like ffa pvp"
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I want huge death penalties"
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I prefer sandbox games."
IMO it's not to prove what game, or game design is better, it's to prove that that person is a hardcore ultral33t mastah who'd pwn anybody at the nonexistent game they're thinking up in their heads, and that the reason they get pwned in games that actually exist is because there's some game mechanic that gives other gamers an unfair advantage over them.
Pretty much the people who live in their mother's basements want the mob grind to matter. Losers from the old days of gaming.
Not all quests are boring. The books 2-7 of LOTRo is really good.
Not all quests are good, not all songs are good. But there are good ones. One good song will give me a life time memory, I hum whenever I hear it again, anywhere. One good questline and I keep recalling them on and off.
I liked the book quests too. It had a nice epic feeling to me. Too bad I didn't enjoy the game more overall.
I can't stand questing as the main mechanic to leveling, but special quests, epics, something worthwhile, I always enjoyed, like the books, or the epic in EQ, the epic armor set in daoc and a few others there were quite enjoyable. Even liked a few in wow such as thunderfury quest.
I guess when I think of doing a quest, it is something special, not mundane like these menial tasks given like get me 10 rat ears. I mean, you don't call going to the store for milk a quest, it is a chore, or task. That is what most "quests" are in MMOs today, chores.
The term quest is overused, when jobs, tasks, missions and other things should be used instead. Quests should be something special and specific to your class/faction. If they are kill N boars for X cash, that would be a job. Go attack that fort would likely be a mission. Fedex could be jobs or tasks. etc.
I completely agree. I used to consider myself a pelt hunter in EQ1. I would roam the Commonlands looking for bears to hunt because their pelts could be quite valuable. That was my quest, kill bears for their pelts and sell them to interested crafters. I didn't need a quest to tell me what to do, I made the decision myself. And given that there was no auction house at that time, buying and selling commodities was a game in and of itself.
Again, I don't mind the existence of questlines if that helps give your MMO playing some direction, but I do have problems with the fact that they offer the most efficient method of advancement and penalize those who'd rather make up their own mind. Everyone should be able to advance similarly regardless of their playstyle of choice.