I guess it really depends on the time you have to enjoy a game. Some people don't have the countless hours to grind mobs in almost questless worlds. Opinions like the OP are generally from people who resent the mass market appeal of modern MMOs. I don't think you have an issue with quests themselves but the casual players that don't dedicate their lives to living in a game's virtual world.
I do have to agree to a point of the watered down mess that quests have become. I don't mind go fetch some bread from the baker when I'm level 3 or kill the wolves that are attacking my sheep. I'm level 3 after all. What good am I until I've honed some skills to be more useful to this virtual world.
What I hate is when I'm a much higher level and people are still asking me to do these mindless tasks like take this love letter to a guy cause I'm too shy to do it myself. Don't they know who I am?!? I've saved the world from countless evil horrors! I've killed other worldly demons with other heroes and held off the spawns of an undead army! I've took down dragons and carry legendary weapons that you have only heard of in stories!! And you want me to deliver your stupid love letter!?!?
I enjoy questing and getting exp for them is fine with me. I do think there should be fewer quests at higher levels and make them more meaningful. Make them worth doing instead of them being a means to an end.
I didn't mind the quest system in WOW, because you could also level by grinding mobs if you chose. Mob xp in WOW is pretty good. At least you have a choice. If I felt like questing I could quest. If I didn't feel like running quests, I could find a good mob spawn area and grind mobs.
What I don't like is games like LOTRO, where the xp from mobs is so low that you are pretty much forced to quest if you want to level at a decent rate. I also don't like games like DAOC at release, where you had to grind mobs to level up. Yes there were a few quests in DAOC, but they were more for gaining good items, not xp. Grinding mobs hour after hours is tedious and boring. Give me a choice on how to level, don't force me to level by either questing or grinding mobs.
If you are a person who claims to love mob grinding, having quest give out tons of xp and mobs a small amount should be great for you because you get to kill so many more mobs. However, if you are trying to find a way to exploit mob grinding XP you would hate this. So which are you? A mob grinding lover or an exploiter?
Originally posted by FreddyNoNose Pretty much the people who live in their mother's basements want the mob grind to matter. Losers from the old days of gaming.
Good point. Grinding quests all day is so much more interesting. I mean, there's a cute little blip on your mini-map telling you exactly where to go! How fun and stimulating. And not only that, you get to run around a lot! I have trouble thinking of anything more interesting that running around town looking for peole with a neat exclamation point about their head, clicking on them, saying "ok", then following the arrow telling me exactly where to go and what to do. Run back and forth and back and forth. Kill ten of this and ten of that. Continue running around. Don't ever stop because then you won't be gaining exp. Just keep running and clicking and following your mini-map. Quests are nice because I don't like thinking. Thinking is for losers from the old days of gaming who probably live in their mother's basements.
Quests are not "fine". They are not fine until the day they have consequences. Right now they are mainly 99% pure BS. You are not feeling you are "helping" anyone particular by doing them quests. How many wolf-pelts do these NPC's really need, considering it was 10.000 players before you that gave them 20 pelts each, and knowing there will be 10.000 more players in the line behind you doing the same. And game developers expect us to read all this nonsense when it doesnt mean a tad??
What would those consequences be in a massive multiplayer game? Should you not be able to turn your wolf pelts in because the guy before you filled the fulfilled the QG's needs for wolf pelts?
If that guy then runs off and kills the boss monster that you needed to kill for x item, should that boss be gone forever so now you can't kill them?
Seriously, it doesn't sound like an MMO is your kind of game. People have to have access to the same quests you do, or something similar. Even if there AREN'T quests, your whole concept of "consequences" is ruined by the fact that mobs have to respawn to be killed over and over by different players. Your sense of "consequenses" is not something that works with anything other than a single player RPG.
Again, if you don't feel like you're "helping", then don't do the quests.
Originally posted by FreddyNoNose Pretty much the people who live in their mother's basements want the mob grind to matter. Losers from the old days of gaming.
Good point. Grinding quests all day is so much more interesting. I mean, there's a cute little blip on your mini-map telling you exactly where to go! How fun and stimulating. And not only that, you get to run around a lot! I have trouble thinking of anything more interesting that running around town looking for peole with a neat exclamation point about their head, clicking on them, saying "ok", then following the arrow telling me exactly where to go and what to do. Run back and forth and back and forth. Kill ten of this and ten of that. Continue running around. Don't ever stop because then you won't be gaining exp. Just keep running and clicking and following your mini-map. Quests are nice because I don't like thinking. Thinking is for losers from the old days of gaming who probably live in their mother's basements.
As we can see from your posting you don't like thinking. That's ok, a really stupid person would reply to this post.
Both of us can get xp and advance our characters doing what we want. So what exactly is the problem with quests giving xp?
I suspect, because it's not so much that certain players want the option to play the way they want to play, they just want others to NOT be able to play the way they want to play. Or at best, they see it as some big 'leet epeen talking point like it takes some mad skillz to, in this example, not want quests.
This whole forum is inundated with elitist epeen attitudes...
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I like ffa pvp"
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I want huge death penalties"
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I prefer sandbox games."
IMO it's not to prove what game, or game design is better, it's to prove that that person is a hardcore ultral33t mastah who'd pwn anybody at the nonexistent game they're thinking up in their heads, and that the reason they get pwned in games that actually exist is because there's some game mechanic that gives other gamers an unfair advantage over them.
Pretty much the people who live in their mother's basements want the mob grind to matter. Losers from the old days of gaming.
lol, you mean, the people who invented gaming? Yeah, real losers.
I didn't mind the quest system in WOW, because you could also level by grinding mobs if you chose. Mob xp in WOW is pretty good. At least you have a choice. If I felt like questing I could quest. If I didn't feel like running quests, I could find a good mob spawn area and grind mobs.
What I don't like is games like LOTRO, where the xp from mobs is so low that you are pretty much forced to quest if you want to level at a decent rate. I also don't like games like DAOC at release, where you had to grind mobs to level up. Yes there were a few quests in DAOC, but they were more for gaining good items, not xp. Grinding mobs hour after hours is tedious and boring. Give me a choice on how to level, don't force me to level by either questing or grinding mobs.
Not sure where you get that. I've been doing skirmishes in LotRO lately. In summary, skirmishes are almost nonstop action for about 15 minutes, with a small amount of XP on completing the Skirmish. I've been getting XP faster (despite less xp per mob)than I ever have doing quests.
If I went full bore across the countryside hacking away at baddies, I'm pretty certain I'd at least draw even.
Both of us can get xp and advance our characters doing what we want. So what exactly is the problem with quests giving xp?
I suspect, because it's not so much that certain players want the option to play the way they want to play, they just want others to NOT be able to play the way they want to play. Or at best, they see it as some big 'leet epeen talking point like it takes some mad skillz to, in this example, not want quests.
This whole forum is inundated with elitist epeen attitudes...
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I like ffa pvp"
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I want huge death penalties"
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I prefer sandbox games."
IMO it's not to prove what game, or game design is better, it's to prove that that person is a hardcore ultral33t mastah who'd pwn anybody at the nonexistent game they're thinking up in their heads, and that the reason they get pwned in games that actually exist is because there's some game mechanic that gives other gamers an unfair advantage over them.
Pretty much the people who live in their mother's basements want the mob grind to matter. Losers from the old days of gaming.
Pretty narrow minded and stereotyping don't you think? Maybe you need to realize killing monsters for xp to level and the length of time it takes to level are two seperate things. No one said it needs to take the same amount of time as it did in the past. Read my previous post, that would describe what I am talking about. Again, the length of time it takes to level has nothing to do with whether it is quest based or killing monsters to xp based.
Both of us can get xp and advance our characters doing what we want. So what exactly is the problem with quests giving xp?
I suspect, because it's not so much that certain players want the option to play the way they want to play, they just want others to NOT be able to play the way they want to play. Or at best, they see it as some big 'leet epeen talking point like it takes some mad skillz to, in this example, not want quests.
This whole forum is inundated with elitist epeen attitudes...
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I like ffa pvp"
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I want huge death penalties"
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I prefer sandbox games."
IMO it's not to prove what game, or game design is better, it's to prove that that person is a hardcore ultral33t mastah who'd pwn anybody at the nonexistent game they're thinking up in their heads, and that the reason they get pwned in games that actually exist is because there's some game mechanic that gives other gamers an unfair advantage over them.
Pretty much the people who live in their mother's basements want the mob grind to matter. Losers from the old days of gaming.
lol, you mean, the people who invented gaming? Yeah, real losers.
Ummm... pretty sure they weren't folks living in their moms basements.
Also, I'm pretty sure that the people who invented these games are the same people who are designing them with quests, now. Something they were unable to do back in the day due to lack of development funding and/or technology. In short, your point is moot.
Originally posted by FreddyNoNose Pretty much the people who live in their mother's basements want the mob grind to matter. Losers from the old days of gaming.
Good point. Grinding quests all day is so much more interesting. I mean, there's a cute little blip on your mini-map telling you exactly where to go! How fun and stimulating. And not only that, you get to run around a lot! I have trouble thinking of anything more interesting that running around town looking for peole with a neat exclamation point about their head, clicking on them, saying "ok", then following the arrow telling me exactly where to go and what to do. Run back and forth and back and forth. Kill ten of this and ten of that. Continue running around. Don't ever stop because then you won't be gaining exp. Just keep running and clicking and following your mini-map. Quests are nice because I don't like thinking. Thinking is for losers from the old days of gaming who probably live in their mother's basements.
As we can see from your posting you don't like thinking. That's ok, a really stupid person would reply to this post.
But you're missing his brilliance. The brilliance that:
1. Ignores that many games allow you to turn the guides off, and
2. loves to play the smart card by not wanting games to have built in guides so they can get them at an independent website instead, all the while congratulating themselves on their resourcefulness.
See... the smart guys have the laptop next to their pc's... THOSE guys are the cream of the crop. The uberbright and powerful 'leet...
Originally posted by FreddyNoNose Pretty much the people who live in their mother's basements want the mob grind to matter. Losers from the old days of gaming.
Good point. Grinding quests all day is so much more interesting. I mean, there's a cute little blip on your mini-map telling you exactly where to go! How fun and stimulating. And not only that, you get to run around a lot! I have trouble thinking of anything more interesting that running around town looking for peole with a neat exclamation point about their head, clicking on them, saying "ok", then following the arrow telling me exactly where to go and what to do. Run back and forth and back and forth. Kill ten of this and ten of that. Continue running around. Don't ever stop because then you won't be gaining exp. Just keep running and clicking and following your mini-map. Quests are nice because I don't like thinking. Thinking is for losers from the old days of gaming who probably live in their mother's basements.
As we can see from your posting you don't like thinking. That's ok, a really stupid person would reply to this post.
But you're missing his brilliance. The brilliance that:
1. Ignores that many games allow you to turn the guides off, and
2. loves to play the smart card by not wanting games to have built in guides so they can get them at an independent website instead, all the while congratulating themselves on their resourcefulness.
See... the smart guys have the laptop next to their pc's... THOSE guys are the cream of the crop. The uberbright and powerful 'leet...
Come on man. I've been reasonable throughout this discussion until the above poster decided to cast a blanket generalization on people who prefer mobs grinds over quests as basement dweller losers. I only responded to his absurd comment with an equally absurd one of my own. I honestly thought you were reasonable based on your earlier posts, but coming to the defense of FreddyNoNose, with his "thoughtful" one-line posts suggests otherwise.
There is really no immersion or depth in any game that has this kind of system. Like in Everquest, an MMORPG with no quests, it's like you have no idea at all what to do when you play the game. You do things, like talk to NPCs or players and then you have to actually explore, and figure out where things are and where to go. You have to figure out where to level, what NPCs to kill, where other zones are, etc.
LOL .. it is WORSE to camp the SAME 3 NPCs for weeks. Thank you very much. There is a reason why I QUIT EQ. WOW leveling is 100x more fun with more variety than killing the same spawn 10000000 times leveling in EQ.
And who talked to NPCs in EQ??? You go to the most efficient place to level (like that temple with lizard man in the mid-30 levels) and stay there.
You do not have to keep the previous time it took to level along with killing monsters for xp instead of quest for xp. Say a quest has you kill 10 beetles for x amount of xp, you could always just kill 10 beetles for x amount of xp without the quest. Give the player multiple monsters to kill and some interesting places to kill them in and let them decide what they want to "quest" for. I don't need a npc to tell me what to kill, let me have the freedom to "quest" for whatever I feel like.
Maybe an npc drops some crafting supplies I need, there is my "quest". Maybe there is a named monster in the bottom of a dungeon that might drop a nice item, that could be my "quest". The point is my quest should be whatever I want it to be. Remove xp from quest and put it on the monsters we kill again. You can still have the same leveling curve with that model.
So you want to remove quests so the only option is to grind...?
There is really no immersion or depth in any game that has this kind of system. Like in Everquest, an MMORPG with no quests, it's like you have no idea at all what to do when you play the game. You do things, like talk to NPCs or players and then you have to actually explore, and figure out where things are and where to go. You have to figure out where to level, what NPCs to kill, where other zones are, etc.
LOL .. it is WORSE to camp the SAME 3 NPCs for weeks. Thank you very much. There is a reason why I QUIT EQ. WOW leveling is 100x more fun with more variety than killing the same spawn 10000000 times leveling in EQ.
And who talked to NPCs in EQ??? You go to the most efficient place to level (like that temple with lizard man in the mid-30 levels) and stay there.
You do not have to keep the previous time it took to level along with killing monsters for xp instead of quest for xp. Say a quest has you kill 10 beetles for x amount of xp, you could always just kill 10 beetles for x amount of xp without the quest. Give the player multiple monsters to kill and some interesting places to kill them in and let them decide what they want to "quest" for. I don't need a npc to tell me what to kill, let me have the freedom to "quest" for whatever I feel like.
Maybe an npc drops some crafting supplies I need, there is my "quest". Maybe there is a named monster in the bottom of a dungeon that might drop a nice item, that could be my "quest". The point is my quest should be whatever I want it to be. Remove xp from quest and put it on the monsters we kill again. You can still have the same leveling curve with that model.
So you want to remove quests so the only option is to grind...?
I think the point is that quests (the meaningless, kill x type ones that is) are as much of a grind as anything else. I'm personally ok with having lots and lots of quests, as long as I'm not penalized for ignoring them.
There is really no immersion or depth in any game that has this kind of system. Like in Everquest, an MMORPG with no quests, it's like you have no idea at all what to do when you play the game. You do things, like talk to NPCs or players and then you have to actually explore, and figure out where things are and where to go. You have to figure out where to level, what NPCs to kill, where other zones are, etc.
LOL .. it is WORSE to camp the SAME 3 NPCs for weeks. Thank you very much. There is a reason why I QUIT EQ. WOW leveling is 100x more fun with more variety than killing the same spawn 10000000 times leveling in EQ.
And who talked to NPCs in EQ??? You go to the most efficient place to level (like that temple with lizard man in the mid-30 levels) and stay there.
You do not have to keep the previous time it took to level along with killing monsters for xp instead of quest for xp. Say a quest has you kill 10 beetles for x amount of xp, you could always just kill 10 beetles for x amount of xp without the quest. Give the player multiple monsters to kill and some interesting places to kill them in and let them decide what they want to "quest" for. I don't need a npc to tell me what to kill, let me have the freedom to "quest" for whatever I feel like.
Maybe an npc drops some crafting supplies I need, there is my "quest". Maybe there is a named monster in the bottom of a dungeon that might drop a nice item, that could be my "quest". The point is my quest should be whatever I want it to be. Remove xp from quest and put it on the monsters we kill again. You can still have the same leveling curve with that model.
So you want to remove quests so the only option is to grind...?
I don't understand what you mean. How is an npc telling you to kill x number of beetles any different than you killing x number of beetles .. other than an npc telling you to do so?
To the person saying that people who don't want quests are losers, wtf? Do you really think you spend any less time finding quest hubs, then collecting 20 quests you don't read, then running all over the zone and looking on some online site to find out where the shit you're supposed to kill is? In games like WoW you just have QuestHelper which puts everything on your minimap so you are just running to arrows without knowing what to do there really.
Anyway, the point is you spend the same amount of time really. The grind in WOW is less than what was in EQ, but EQ could have had a smaller grind (just give more exp?) I don't see how questing relates to time investment.
The people who say "It's your fault for not reading the quests that you find them boring & meaningless." Are you kidding? Go collect some hay for some stupid horse that has nothing to do with the damn game? Seriously, wtf? Do you people find that amusing or something? I don't give a shit about some stupid horse and I'd probably kill the horse if I was allowed to for being part of such a retarded quest.
The quests really are meaningless...
Some people here misconstrue my statement about EQ not having quests.. EQ didn't have quests for EXPING. Not "EQ did not have quests at all."
Sure it had some faction quests, I sat in that ice-zone collecting dwarf heads for gauntlets of dragon slaying for a week, just for faction. But the thing is, no one told me to go collect dwarf heads. You wouldn't even know the quest existed because EQ isn't a game where they put freaking arrows above everything saying "This guy has a quest click him."
Personally I liked the "Talk to this NPC and roleplay" for a quest rather than the idiotic system of putting arrows above characters.I don't even think arrows are acceptable in any MMORPG. Anything like that ruins the immersive feeling of MMORPGs. How do you have a game with immersion when the characters have magical arrows and shit floating around them, or if you have markers on your mini-map that tell you information that you normally would not know unless you actually interacted with the game and NPCs?
It's like somehow, your character has gained information about who has quests, where things are, etc. without you even knowing. Players should have to discover this information. I'm all for getting rid of all this bullshit, all of the arrows, minimaps, maps, etc. Don't give away any extra information, because it takes away from the immersion of the game. Even a loc system would be pushing it (Are players too dumb to navigate zones without having a map now, totally ruins the immersion.) Anyway if you want a map you should have to record it yourself or look it up online. It's not like your character should magically record everything. The person behind the character is the one who should have to be able to navigate zones etc.
Some people say that the grinding is meaningless, but really, did you even play any game like EQ? I mean, EQ had a lot of exploration. Sure you can look up where something is, or ask players. But the fact is that it's going to be a challenge to get there if you haven't been there before. If you've never been to velious, do you think it would be easy to get to Thurgadin? No. It doesn't matter how many maps you have, it'll be challenging because the environment isn't for carebears and is dangerous. It's that kind of immersion that MMORPGs need to bring back.
And it's not like you spend more than a few days in a certain area unless you are camping some specific item. Some people said "Static spawns are boring" or something like that.. Well, in EQ the spawns weren't all that static. Sometimes named NPCs popped up, sometimes different NPCs popped up (different power levels, different class types, etc.) Sometimes you will get a bunch of overpowered NPCs who spawn on your group, NPCs that are higher level. It's not boring at all. In EQ it was pretty common for people to wipe even if they are experienced. Nothing was really guaranteed. You could even be twinked out and have problems with some of the NPCs that would spawn. Don't act like it is boring or mindless. The exp system in EQ was 10x more challenging than the shit you get in games like WoW.
Are you really going to compare something like WoW (go find an idiot quest giver and do a trivial quest) to EQ (Go to LGUK or Karnors Castle and try camping some really difficult area.)?
I'd take the NPC "grind" any day over the mindless quest shit you have in games like WoW. At least in EQ I felt like I was the character. I can't help but feel out of character when I'm playing WoW because of all the things they have in the game that remove the immersion (Quests, dumbing shit down, instancing, etc.)
It really sickens me how all of the new MMORPGs have quests, I'm really going to never play an MMORPG again if that is how it's going to be. They are just too simple anymore, and have no immersion. If I wanted a game without immersion I wouldn't be playing an MMORPG. I can hardly believe how anyone here would support a questing system such as the one that exists in WoW (it's really mindless and doesn't let you get into the game).
Really, I have no memory of leveling up in WoW, that is how un-memorable their questing system was. I don't even remember the quests, that is how meaningless they were. But I bet if you did a quest in EQ you would remember it (Epic quest, or Factioning quest).
I agree ,giving xp for meaningless quests is real dumb,makes zero sense.It would be like your mom sends you to the store,you don't learn anything,you are probably doing it for some reward or you have to.If it was your very first time to the store,you might learn how to handle money,but you really wouldn't continually gain life XP by going to the store over and over. FFXI was/is the ONLY game to get that part right,you do quests for rewards or fame,that is the design that makes sense. I think it is the modern era gamer[or so called gamer] that has made questing for xp a joke.This is because all they want from gaming is to level up[or as they call it advancing[not really].If people actually played a game for it's content and of course it's combat,witch EVERY game is designed around,then XP would not matter at all.Level up is usually something PVP players look to more,because they want to gain levels to make them stronger for PVP purposes,imo this is not gaming,this is just PVP plain and simple.
Oh, so if it is called fame, it is right, it is meaningful. If it is called xp it is wrong. Why? No reason, just Wizardry says so.
Back to the topic. XP, gear, skills, all are just symbolic representation of the process called character progression. Levels are just index summary of various attributes that enhances certain aspects of the character in some actions in the game. A higher level warrior character (maybe actually played by a crippled 6 year old) will have more strength to wield heavier weapon, but still totally useless when called to open a lock or heal a dying NPC in the game. That is RPG.
Why would quest no matter? Role playing involves some character interacting in a game world. A game world inhabited by NPCs some friendly some hostile others to be made friends or enemies as the character interacts (faction). XP, faction, reputation, whatever, those are just digital representation of certain aspect of standing of the character in the game world. Quests? these are one of the ways the character interacts with NPCs.
The other aspect of gameplay in RPG is relationship with other players who shares the server/shard, that is where MMO comes in. We make friends, enemies, and instead of digital measures of faction, we have friend list, ignore list. Still behind the MMO is the fact that the game world is an RPG, where the character plays in the game world, not me. I play through him. I can play through multiple characters, we call alts. With each different alt loaded, I play totally differently.
It is call character progression. Learn the game Wizardry, blind hatred without reason won't get you anywhere.
Some of the posts here are ridiculous.. To the person saying that people who don't want quests are losers, wtf? Do you really think you spend any less time finding quest hubs, then collecting 20 quests you don't read, then running all over the zone and looking on some online site to find out where the shit you're supposed to kill is? In games like WoW you just have QuestHelper which puts everything on your minimap so you are just running to arrows without knowing what to do there really. Anyway, the point is you spend the same amount of time really. The grind in WOW is less than what was in EQ, but EQ could have had a smaller grind (just give more exp?) I don't see how questing relates to time investment.
The people who say "It's your fault for not reading the quests that you find them boring & meaningless." Are you kidding? Go collect some hay for some stupid horse that has nothing to do with the damn game? Seriously, wtf? Do you people find that amusing or something? I don't give a shit about some stupid horse and I'd probably kill the horse if I was allowed to for being part of such a retarded quest. The quests really are meaningless... Some people here misconstrue my statement about EQ not having quests.. EQ didn't have quests for EXPING. Not "EQ did not have quests at all." Sure it had some faction quests, I sat in that ice-zone collecting dwarf heads for gauntlets of dragon slaying for a week, just for faction. But the thing is, no one told me to go collect dwarf heads. You wouldn't even know the quest existed because EQ isn't a game where they put freaking arrows above everything saying "This guy has a quest click him." Personally I liked the "Talk to this NPC and roleplay" for a quest rather than the idiotic system of putting arrows above characters.I don't even think arrows are acceptable in any MMORPG. Anything like that ruins the immersive feeling of MMORPGs. How do you have a game with immersion when the characters have magical arrows and shit floating around them, or if you have markers on your mini-map that tell you information that you normally would not know unless you actually interacted with the game and NPCs? It's like somehow, your character has gained information about who has quests, where things are, etc. without you even knowing. Players should have to discover this information. I'm all for getting rid of all this bullshit, all of the arrows, minimaps, maps, etc. Don't give away any extra information, because it takes away from the immersion of the game. Even a loc system would be pushing it (Are players too dumb to navigate zones without having a map now, totally ruins the immersion.) Anyway if you want a map you should have to record it yourself or look it up online. It's not like your character should magically record everything. The person behind the character is the one who should have to be able to navigate zones etc.
Some people say that the grinding is meaningless, but really, did you even play any game like EQ? I mean, EQ had a lot of exploration. Sure you can look up where something is, or ask players. But the fact is that it's going to be a challenge to get there if you haven't been there before. If you've never been to velious, do you think it would be easy to get to Thurgadin? No. It doesn't matter how many maps you have, it'll be challenging because the environment isn't for carebears and is dangerous. It's that kind of immersion that MMORPGs need to bring back. And it's not like you spend more than a few days in a certain area unless you are camping some specific item. Some people said "Static spawns are boring" or something like that.. Well, in EQ the spawns weren't all that static. Sometimes named NPCs popped up, sometimes different NPCs popped up (different power levels, different class types, etc.) Sometimes you will get a bunch of overpowered NPCs who spawn on your group, NPCs that are higher level. It's not boring at all. In EQ it was pretty common for people to wipe even if they are experienced. Nothing was really guaranteed. You could even be twinked out and have problems with some of the NPCs that would spawn. Don't act like it is boring or mindless. The exp system in EQ was 10x more challenging than the shit you get in games like WoW. Are you really going to compare something like WoW (go find an idiot quest giver and do a trivial quest) to EQ (Go to LGUK or Karnors Castle and try camping some really difficult area.)?
I'd take the NPC "grind" any day over the mindless quest shit you have in games like WoW. At least in EQ I felt like I was the character. I can't help but feel out of character when I'm playing WoW because of all the things they have in the game that remove the immersion (Quests, dumbing shit down, instancing, etc.)
It really sickens me how all of the new MMORPGs have quests, I'm really going to never play an MMORPG again if that is how it's going to be. They are just too simple anymore, and have no immersion. If I wanted a game without immersion I wouldn't be playing an MMORPG. I can hardly believe how anyone here would support a questing system such as the one that exists in WoW (it's really mindless and doesn't let you get into the game). Really, I have no memory of leveling up in WoW, that is how un-memorable their questing system was. I don't even remember the quests, that is how meaningless they were. But I bet if you did a quest in EQ you would remember it (Epic quest, or Factioning quest).
You are living in your dreams, telling us old EQ players how things were what? superior in EQ? Stop preaching the nonsense. The EQ you talked about does not exist, except in your dreams.
EQ is pure grind. Instead of a lot of quests that are meaningless or whatever, EQ offers some dungeons or areas on the map with mobs and a rare chance of a named mob spawn. Everybody teams up and carve the map/dungeons into camps and sit there for hours killing the same boss forever. If he spawns.
Exploration, you are kidding me. Do we explore in EQ? No, we find the way to the camp, the safe route; we find the nearest druid or wizard portal. One way or another, we find our way to the camp, and we log out at the zone entrance / safe spot on map. Everyday we log on, we spam "healer lfg XYZ boss" and wait in line for a certain camp to open up a healer spot. We get into the camp and camp for hours, zone out and log out on that spot.
Tell me ghose stories about exploration, you can believe in that. I have EQ for years from day 1till I give up in Plane of Air. None of those ghost stories about EQ actually means much for EQ grinders. Not crafting, not mining, no nothing. Just straight up camping the boss for your level, if you got lucky enuf to get an invite.
I don't understand what you mean. How is an npc telling you to kill x number of beetles any different than you killing x number of beetles .. other than an npc telling you to do so?
So? Does the NPC with a quest stop you from killing beetles on your own initiative? No.
If you want to straight up grind go do it.
If someone else feels like dicing up grinding with some questlines, they have that option.
How does your argument discredit quests? Quests, storylines, story arc, lore, ... all these are just features and options that might help make a game experience richer, and they are all options. You do not need to read any of these. You can just go grind the same mob everyday and do not feel bothered. Options are not compulsory.
For those who care for options, options are improvements, for you they are transparent. Why is it not win win for all.
Some people say that the grinding is meaningless, but really, did you even play any game like EQ? I mean, EQ had a lot of exploration. If you've never been to velious, do you think it would be easy to get to Thurgadin? No. It doesn't matter how many maps you have, it'll be challenging because the environment isn't for carebears and is dangerous. It's that kind of immersion that MMORPGs need to bring back.
1. So if you added XP quests to EQ, it would automatically make all that exploration meaningless? What a bizarre though.
2. The difficulty of traveling places is completely off-topic tbh, and has nothing to do with questing for XP.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I dont think you'd know what the original EQ was even if it bit you on the ass. Everquest HAD quests. You had to actually talk to the NPC's and go through a dialog tree to get them but they were there. I remember vividly killing alot of orcs for belts and other ridiculous things. The grind in the game was horrorfic honestly if you didn't do those quests along with the grind...your leveling would be incredibly slow unless someone was power leveling you.
EQ is called Ever Q U E S T .. sure it didn't have a quest journal or people harrassing you to do quests but it had Quests. It had epic weapon quests, class quests, random kill X for X item quests etc etc. It always had those quests...I remember going through alot of paper writing those quests down since Quest Journals didn't exist and having to remember the NPC's name because there was no auto feature. I kinda like that they have that stuff now. I hate that some games are to Too Reliant on quests but glad its not a giant Grind like EQ was since you'd have to camp your ass in the same spot for days to level or get certain drops. in EQ you could do the quests and the mob grind...and it was still damn slow when you reached the Hell Levels...god it took them what 3+ years to figure out how to get rid of them..or supposedly get rid of them.
Quests have a purpose in RPG's...WoW and EQ and DDO etc are RPG's M M M O R P G's..that kinda implies quests. Games need to innovate their quest systems to something better than Kill X for a reward or Deliver this Pie etc ... but honestly...Quests are Necessary for those that don't want to camp their asss on the ground in an Huge MMO world all day long.
Oh and Exploration? Even in EQ you couldn't level by just Exploring...if you could I'd of reached 50 (the max at the time I played) in like no time since I dangerously went where ever I wanted regardless of my level..once I figured out how not to fall out of Kelenith. I also think its a crock you think that other games dont' make their zones dangerous? I remember dying quite alot while exploring in WoW. Go to an area 10+ levels higher than you..and you'd likely die if you didnt know the terrain first.... though they did make it ridiculously easy to travel in the Alliance lands.
I don't understand what you mean. How is an npc telling you to kill x number of beetles any different than you killing x number of beetles .. other than an npc telling you to do so?
So? Does the NPC with a quest stop you from killing beetles on your own initiative? No.
If you want to straight up grind go do it.
If someone else feels like dicing up grinding with some questlines, they have that option.
How does your argument discredit quests? Quests, storylines, story arc, lore, ... all these are just features and options that might help make a game experience richer, and they are all options. You do not need to read any of these. You can just go grind the same mob everyday and do not feel bothered. Options are not compulsory.
For those who care for options, options are improvements, for you they are transparent. Why is it not win win for all.
It's not a win win for all because doing questlines is far and away the most efficient way to progress. If quest grinding were an option that offered similar exp gain and item acquisition as mob grinding, I wouldn't have any qualms with the current system.
And as a side note, I really don't understand the "dicing up grinding with some questlines" statement. I really feel as though doing quest after quest of pointless "kill x" quests is as much a grind as anything else. In my opinion, your post should read "dicing upmob grinding with some quest grinding" because they are both repetitive and both "grindy" if you go into them with a certain mindset.
I dont think you'd know what the original EQ was even if it bit you on the ass. Everquest HAD quests. You had to actually talk to the NPC's and go through a dialog tree to get them but they were there. I remember vividly killing alot of orcs for belts and other ridiculous things. The grind in the game was horrorfic honestly if you didn't do those quests along with the grind...your leveling would be incredibly slow unless someone was power leveling you.
EQ is called Ever Q U E S T .. sure it didn't have a quest journal or people harrassing you to do quests but it had Quests. It had epic weapon quests, class quests, random kill X for X item quests etc etc. It always had those quests...I remember going through alot of paper writing those quests down since Quest Journals didn't exist and having to remember the NPC's name because there was no auto feature. I kinda like that they have that stuff now. I hate that some games are to Too Reliant on quests but glad its not a giant Grind like EQ was since you'd have to camp your ass in the same spot for days to level or get certain drops. in EQ you could do the quests and the mob grind...and it was still damn slow when you reached the Hell Levels...god it took them what 3+ years to figure out how to get rid of them..or supposedly get rid of them.
Quests have a purpose in RPG's...WoW and EQ and DDO etc are RPG's M M M O R P G's..that kinda implies quests. Games need to innovate their quest systems to something better than Kill X for a reward or Deliver this Pie etc ... but honestly...Quests are Necessary for those that don't want to camp their asss on the ground in an Huge MMO world all day long.
Oh and Exploration? Even in EQ you couldn't level by just Exploring...if you could I'd of reached 50 (the max at the time I played) in like no time since I dangerously went where ever I wanted regardless of my level..once I figured out how not to fall out of Kelenith. I also think its a crock you think that other games dont' make their zones dangerous? I remember dying quite alot while exploring in WoW. Go to an area 10+ levels higher than you..and you'd likely die if you didnt know the terrain first.... though they did make it ridiculously easy to travel in the Alliance lands.
Yeah, quote one line, then go on a rant about how "this was everquest" even though you say a lot of the same things I've just said in the post you are quoting.. whatever
I never said people level by exploring, but that EQ required exploration whereas WoW puts things all over the map because the designers thought their players were retarded. EQ never did that. Not only that, EQ had an exp loss + had to corpse run for dying, so you actual had to be cautious if you were roaming into an unknown area. Nowadays, no one fucking cares. If you die in WoW, just click a damn spirit healer and u instantly get everything back, you don't even lose exp. Exploring is not even fun when there isn't some kind of risk involved.
Also, there weren't any quests that made leveling that much faster at higher levels, unless you had an unlimited supply of CB belts or something stupid. Most people leveled up by grinding though, not the level 1 quests, kthx
Quests were generally for faction in EQ, not for getting from level 1-60.
Whining about hell levels? Lol. I'd rather level 60's not suck at the game than have to put up with a grind. Who cares? I mean, look at WoW. You can't even put together a PUG to raid anything because the players are so bad (the level 75's who get to level 75 through no effort). Then Blizzard had to continually dumb their game down because their players are of such low quality.
How about an MMORPG that requires some effort and skill in leveling (EQ)? At least when you are grinding, you gain some experience playing your own character in the role it was designed for (grouping + raiding). One of the reason WoW players suck so much is that they solo to level 75 through trivial quests / instances.
Yeah quests have real purpose in WoW, I get the feeling you didn't even read anything, you just quoted one line and went on a random rant that was already mentioned. Because if you read anything you would realize that the WoW quests are total bullshit and meaningless and have nothing to do with the game. Unless you think finding hay and feeding it to a random horse has some kind of depth.
I dont think you'd know what the original EQ was even if it bit you on the ass. Everquest HAD quests. You had to actually talk to the NPC's and go through a dialog tree to get them but they were there. I remember vividly killing alot of orcs for belts and other ridiculous things. The grind in the game was horrorfic honestly if you didn't do those quests along with the grind...your leveling would be incredibly slow unless someone was power leveling you.
EQ is called Ever Q U E S T .. sure it didn't have a quest journal or people harrassing you to do quests but it had Quests. It had epic weapon quests, class quests, random kill X for X item quests etc etc. It always had those quests...I remember going through alot of paper writing those quests down since Quest Journals didn't exist and having to remember the NPC's name because there was no auto feature. I kinda like that they have that stuff now. I hate that some games are to Too Reliant on quests but glad its not a giant Grind like EQ was since you'd have to camp your ass in the same spot for days to level or get certain drops. in EQ you could do the quests and the mob grind...and it was still damn slow when you reached the Hell Levels...god it took them what 3+ years to figure out how to get rid of them..or supposedly get rid of them.
Quests have a purpose in RPG's...WoW and EQ and DDO etc are RPG's M M M O R P G's..that kinda implies quests. Games need to innovate their quest systems to something better than Kill X for a reward or Deliver this Pie etc ... but honestly...Quests are Necessary for those that don't want to camp their asss on the ground in an Huge MMO world all day long.
Oh and Exploration? Even in EQ you couldn't level by just Exploring...if you could I'd of reached 50 (the max at the time I played) in like no time since I dangerously went where ever I wanted regardless of my level..once I figured out how not to fall out of Kelenith. I also think its a crock you think that other games dont' make their zones dangerous? I remember dying quite alot while exploring in WoW. Go to an area 10+ levels higher than you..and you'd likely die if you didnt know the terrain first.... though they did make it ridiculously easy to travel in the Alliance lands.
You're right, EQ had a lot of quests. The real difference as I see it is that questing in EQ was not the primary mode of progressing. As it stands currently, the only really efficient way to progress - especially through earlier content - is through solo questing. EQ was nothing like that. I think that's what the OP was getting at, but I could be wrong.
And I don't think it's at all fair to suggest that getting rid of the tons upon tons of solo questlines in current MMOs is equal to bringing back the camps of EQ1 (which you're right; they were awful). You can kill mobs by crawling through a dungeon from top to bottom, constantly moving as you clear new areas. Killing mobs in that way doesn't feel like a chore and can be a lot of fun. That's the sort of thing I think of when I think of "mob grinding" not the camp-style mob grinding of the past.
Comments
I guess it really depends on the time you have to enjoy a game. Some people don't have the countless hours to grind mobs in almost questless worlds. Opinions like the OP are generally from people who resent the mass market appeal of modern MMOs. I don't think you have an issue with quests themselves but the casual players that don't dedicate their lives to living in a game's virtual world.
I do have to agree to a point of the watered down mess that quests have become. I don't mind go fetch some bread from the baker when I'm level 3 or kill the wolves that are attacking my sheep. I'm level 3 after all. What good am I until I've honed some skills to be more useful to this virtual world.
What I hate is when I'm a much higher level and people are still asking me to do these mindless tasks like take this love letter to a guy cause I'm too shy to do it myself. Don't they know who I am?!? I've saved the world from countless evil horrors! I've killed other worldly demons with other heroes and held off the spawns of an undead army! I've took down dragons and carry legendary weapons that you have only heard of in stories!! And you want me to deliver your stupid love letter!?!?
I enjoy questing and getting exp for them is fine with me. I do think there should be fewer quests at higher levels and make them more meaningful. Make them worth doing instead of them being a means to an end.
If you are a person who claims to love mob grinding, having quest give out tons of xp and mobs a small amount should be great for you because you get to kill so many more mobs. However, if you are trying to find a way to exploit mob grinding XP you would hate this. So which are you? A mob grinding lover or an exploiter?
Good point. Grinding quests all day is so much more interesting. I mean, there's a cute little blip on your mini-map telling you exactly where to go! How fun and stimulating. And not only that, you get to run around a lot! I have trouble thinking of anything more interesting that running around town looking for peole with a neat exclamation point about their head, clicking on them, saying "ok", then following the arrow telling me exactly where to go and what to do. Run back and forth and back and forth. Kill ten of this and ten of that. Continue running around. Don't ever stop because then you won't be gaining exp. Just keep running and clicking and following your mini-map. Quests are nice because I don't like thinking. Thinking is for losers from the old days of gaming who probably live in their mother's basements.
What would those consequences be in a massive multiplayer game? Should you not be able to turn your wolf pelts in because the guy before you filled the fulfilled the QG's needs for wolf pelts?
If that guy then runs off and kills the boss monster that you needed to kill for x item, should that boss be gone forever so now you can't kill them?
Seriously, it doesn't sound like an MMO is your kind of game. People have to have access to the same quests you do, or something similar. Even if there AREN'T quests, your whole concept of "consequences" is ruined by the fact that mobs have to respawn to be killed over and over by different players. Your sense of "consequenses" is not something that works with anything other than a single player RPG.
Again, if you don't feel like you're "helping", then don't do the quests.
Good point. Grinding quests all day is so much more interesting. I mean, there's a cute little blip on your mini-map telling you exactly where to go! How fun and stimulating. And not only that, you get to run around a lot! I have trouble thinking of anything more interesting that running around town looking for peole with a neat exclamation point about their head, clicking on them, saying "ok", then following the arrow telling me exactly where to go and what to do. Run back and forth and back and forth. Kill ten of this and ten of that. Continue running around. Don't ever stop because then you won't be gaining exp. Just keep running and clicking and following your mini-map. Quests are nice because I don't like thinking. Thinking is for losers from the old days of gaming who probably live in their mother's basements.
As we can see from your posting you don't like thinking. That's ok, a really stupid person would reply to this post.
I suspect, because it's not so much that certain players want the option to play the way they want to play, they just want others to NOT be able to play the way they want to play. Or at best, they see it as some big 'leet epeen talking point like it takes some mad skillz to, in this example, not want quests.
This whole forum is inundated with elitist epeen attitudes...
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I like ffa pvp"
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I want huge death penalties"
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I prefer sandbox games."
IMO it's not to prove what game, or game design is better, it's to prove that that person is a hardcore ultral33t mastah who'd pwn anybody at the nonexistent game they're thinking up in their heads, and that the reason they get pwned in games that actually exist is because there's some game mechanic that gives other gamers an unfair advantage over them.
Pretty much the people who live in their mother's basements want the mob grind to matter. Losers from the old days of gaming.
lol, you mean, the people who invented gaming? Yeah, real losers.
Darkfall Travelogues!
Not sure where you get that. I've been doing skirmishes in LotRO lately. In summary, skirmishes are almost nonstop action for about 15 minutes, with a small amount of XP on completing the Skirmish. I've been getting XP faster (despite less xp per mob)than I ever have doing quests.
If I went full bore across the countryside hacking away at baddies, I'm pretty certain I'd at least draw even.
Skip the quests and brag about how pro you are grinding boars?
I suspect, because it's not so much that certain players want the option to play the way they want to play, they just want others to NOT be able to play the way they want to play. Or at best, they see it as some big 'leet epeen talking point like it takes some mad skillz to, in this example, not want quests.
This whole forum is inundated with elitist epeen attitudes...
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I like ffa pvp"
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I want huge death penalties"
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I prefer sandbox games."
IMO it's not to prove what game, or game design is better, it's to prove that that person is a hardcore ultral33t mastah who'd pwn anybody at the nonexistent game they're thinking up in their heads, and that the reason they get pwned in games that actually exist is because there's some game mechanic that gives other gamers an unfair advantage over them.
Pretty much the people who live in their mother's basements want the mob grind to matter. Losers from the old days of gaming.
Pretty narrow minded and stereotyping don't you think? Maybe you need to realize killing monsters for xp to level and the length of time it takes to level are two seperate things. No one said it needs to take the same amount of time as it did in the past. Read my previous post, that would describe what I am talking about. Again, the length of time it takes to level has nothing to do with whether it is quest based or killing monsters to xp based.
I suspect, because it's not so much that certain players want the option to play the way they want to play, they just want others to NOT be able to play the way they want to play. Or at best, they see it as some big 'leet epeen talking point like it takes some mad skillz to, in this example, not want quests.
This whole forum is inundated with elitist epeen attitudes...
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I like ffa pvp"
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I want huge death penalties"
"I'm da gamin mastah cuz I prefer sandbox games."
IMO it's not to prove what game, or game design is better, it's to prove that that person is a hardcore ultral33t mastah who'd pwn anybody at the nonexistent game they're thinking up in their heads, and that the reason they get pwned in games that actually exist is because there's some game mechanic that gives other gamers an unfair advantage over them.
Pretty much the people who live in their mother's basements want the mob grind to matter. Losers from the old days of gaming.
lol, you mean, the people who invented gaming? Yeah, real losers.
Ummm... pretty sure they weren't folks living in their moms basements.
Also, I'm pretty sure that the people who invented these games are the same people who are designing them with quests, now. Something they were unable to do back in the day due to lack of development funding and/or technology. In short, your point is moot.
Good point. Grinding quests all day is so much more interesting. I mean, there's a cute little blip on your mini-map telling you exactly where to go! How fun and stimulating. And not only that, you get to run around a lot! I have trouble thinking of anything more interesting that running around town looking for peole with a neat exclamation point about their head, clicking on them, saying "ok", then following the arrow telling me exactly where to go and what to do. Run back and forth and back and forth. Kill ten of this and ten of that. Continue running around. Don't ever stop because then you won't be gaining exp. Just keep running and clicking and following your mini-map. Quests are nice because I don't like thinking. Thinking is for losers from the old days of gaming who probably live in their mother's basements.
As we can see from your posting you don't like thinking. That's ok, a really stupid person would reply to this post.
But you're missing his brilliance. The brilliance that:
1. Ignores that many games allow you to turn the guides off, and
2. loves to play the smart card by not wanting games to have built in guides so they can get them at an independent website instead, all the while congratulating themselves on their resourcefulness.
See... the smart guys have the laptop next to their pc's... THOSE guys are the cream of the crop. The uberbright and powerful 'leet...
Good point. Grinding quests all day is so much more interesting. I mean, there's a cute little blip on your mini-map telling you exactly where to go! How fun and stimulating. And not only that, you get to run around a lot! I have trouble thinking of anything more interesting that running around town looking for peole with a neat exclamation point about their head, clicking on them, saying "ok", then following the arrow telling me exactly where to go and what to do. Run back and forth and back and forth. Kill ten of this and ten of that. Continue running around. Don't ever stop because then you won't be gaining exp. Just keep running and clicking and following your mini-map. Quests are nice because I don't like thinking. Thinking is for losers from the old days of gaming who probably live in their mother's basements.
As we can see from your posting you don't like thinking. That's ok, a really stupid person would reply to this post.
But you're missing his brilliance. The brilliance that:
1. Ignores that many games allow you to turn the guides off, and
2. loves to play the smart card by not wanting games to have built in guides so they can get them at an independent website instead, all the while congratulating themselves on their resourcefulness.
See... the smart guys have the laptop next to their pc's... THOSE guys are the cream of the crop. The uberbright and powerful 'leet...
Come on man. I've been reasonable throughout this discussion until the above poster decided to cast a blanket generalization on people who prefer mobs grinds over quests as basement dweller losers. I only responded to his absurd comment with an equally absurd one of my own. I honestly thought you were reasonable based on your earlier posts, but coming to the defense of FreddyNoNose, with his "thoughtful" one-line posts suggests otherwise.
LOL .. it is WORSE to camp the SAME 3 NPCs for weeks. Thank you very much. There is a reason why I QUIT EQ. WOW leveling is 100x more fun with more variety than killing the same spawn 10000000 times leveling in EQ.
And who talked to NPCs in EQ??? You go to the most efficient place to level (like that temple with lizard man in the mid-30 levels) and stay there.
You do not have to keep the previous time it took to level along with killing monsters for xp instead of quest for xp. Say a quest has you kill 10 beetles for x amount of xp, you could always just kill 10 beetles for x amount of xp without the quest. Give the player multiple monsters to kill and some interesting places to kill them in and let them decide what they want to "quest" for. I don't need a npc to tell me what to kill, let me have the freedom to "quest" for whatever I feel like.
Maybe an npc drops some crafting supplies I need, there is my "quest". Maybe there is a named monster in the bottom of a dungeon that might drop a nice item, that could be my "quest". The point is my quest should be whatever I want it to be. Remove xp from quest and put it on the monsters we kill again. You can still have the same leveling curve with that model.
So you want to remove quests so the only option is to grind...?
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
LOL .. it is WORSE to camp the SAME 3 NPCs for weeks. Thank you very much. There is a reason why I QUIT EQ. WOW leveling is 100x more fun with more variety than killing the same spawn 10000000 times leveling in EQ.
And who talked to NPCs in EQ??? You go to the most efficient place to level (like that temple with lizard man in the mid-30 levels) and stay there.
You do not have to keep the previous time it took to level along with killing monsters for xp instead of quest for xp. Say a quest has you kill 10 beetles for x amount of xp, you could always just kill 10 beetles for x amount of xp without the quest. Give the player multiple monsters to kill and some interesting places to kill them in and let them decide what they want to "quest" for. I don't need a npc to tell me what to kill, let me have the freedom to "quest" for whatever I feel like.
Maybe an npc drops some crafting supplies I need, there is my "quest". Maybe there is a named monster in the bottom of a dungeon that might drop a nice item, that could be my "quest". The point is my quest should be whatever I want it to be. Remove xp from quest and put it on the monsters we kill again. You can still have the same leveling curve with that model.
So you want to remove quests so the only option is to grind...?
I think the point is that quests (the meaningless, kill x type ones that is) are as much of a grind as anything else. I'm personally ok with having lots and lots of quests, as long as I'm not penalized for ignoring them.
Agreed. You should have rather have consequenses for taking quests, rather not.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
LOL .. it is WORSE to camp the SAME 3 NPCs for weeks. Thank you very much. There is a reason why I QUIT EQ. WOW leveling is 100x more fun with more variety than killing the same spawn 10000000 times leveling in EQ.
And who talked to NPCs in EQ??? You go to the most efficient place to level (like that temple with lizard man in the mid-30 levels) and stay there.
You do not have to keep the previous time it took to level along with killing monsters for xp instead of quest for xp. Say a quest has you kill 10 beetles for x amount of xp, you could always just kill 10 beetles for x amount of xp without the quest. Give the player multiple monsters to kill and some interesting places to kill them in and let them decide what they want to "quest" for. I don't need a npc to tell me what to kill, let me have the freedom to "quest" for whatever I feel like.
Maybe an npc drops some crafting supplies I need, there is my "quest". Maybe there is a named monster in the bottom of a dungeon that might drop a nice item, that could be my "quest". The point is my quest should be whatever I want it to be. Remove xp from quest and put it on the monsters we kill again. You can still have the same leveling curve with that model.
So you want to remove quests so the only option is to grind...?
I don't understand what you mean. How is an npc telling you to kill x number of beetles any different than you killing x number of beetles .. other than an npc telling you to do so?
Some of the posts here are ridiculous..
To the person saying that people who don't want quests are losers, wtf? Do you really think you spend any less time finding quest hubs, then collecting 20 quests you don't read, then running all over the zone and looking on some online site to find out where the shit you're supposed to kill is? In games like WoW you just have QuestHelper which puts everything on your minimap so you are just running to arrows without knowing what to do there really.
Anyway, the point is you spend the same amount of time really. The grind in WOW is less than what was in EQ, but EQ could have had a smaller grind (just give more exp?) I don't see how questing relates to time investment.
The people who say "It's your fault for not reading the quests that you find them boring & meaningless." Are you kidding? Go collect some hay for some stupid horse that has nothing to do with the damn game? Seriously, wtf? Do you people find that amusing or something? I don't give a shit about some stupid horse and I'd probably kill the horse if I was allowed to for being part of such a retarded quest.
The quests really are meaningless...
Some people here misconstrue my statement about EQ not having quests.. EQ didn't have quests for EXPING. Not "EQ did not have quests at all."
Sure it had some faction quests, I sat in that ice-zone collecting dwarf heads for gauntlets of dragon slaying for a week, just for faction. But the thing is, no one told me to go collect dwarf heads. You wouldn't even know the quest existed because EQ isn't a game where they put freaking arrows above everything saying "This guy has a quest click him."
Personally I liked the "Talk to this NPC and roleplay" for a quest rather than the idiotic system of putting arrows above characters.I don't even think arrows are acceptable in any MMORPG. Anything like that ruins the immersive feeling of MMORPGs. How do you have a game with immersion when the characters have magical arrows and shit floating around them, or if you have markers on your mini-map that tell you information that you normally would not know unless you actually interacted with the game and NPCs?
It's like somehow, your character has gained information about who has quests, where things are, etc. without you even knowing. Players should have to discover this information. I'm all for getting rid of all this bullshit, all of the arrows, minimaps, maps, etc. Don't give away any extra information, because it takes away from the immersion of the game. Even a loc system would be pushing it (Are players too dumb to navigate zones without having a map now, totally ruins the immersion.) Anyway if you want a map you should have to record it yourself or look it up online. It's not like your character should magically record everything. The person behind the character is the one who should have to be able to navigate zones etc.
Some people say that the grinding is meaningless, but really, did you even play any game like EQ? I mean, EQ had a lot of exploration. Sure you can look up where something is, or ask players. But the fact is that it's going to be a challenge to get there if you haven't been there before. If you've never been to velious, do you think it would be easy to get to Thurgadin? No. It doesn't matter how many maps you have, it'll be challenging because the environment isn't for carebears and is dangerous. It's that kind of immersion that MMORPGs need to bring back.
And it's not like you spend more than a few days in a certain area unless you are camping some specific item. Some people said "Static spawns are boring" or something like that.. Well, in EQ the spawns weren't all that static. Sometimes named NPCs popped up, sometimes different NPCs popped up (different power levels, different class types, etc.) Sometimes you will get a bunch of overpowered NPCs who spawn on your group, NPCs that are higher level. It's not boring at all. In EQ it was pretty common for people to wipe even if they are experienced. Nothing was really guaranteed. You could even be twinked out and have problems with some of the NPCs that would spawn. Don't act like it is boring or mindless. The exp system in EQ was 10x more challenging than the shit you get in games like WoW.
Are you really going to compare something like WoW (go find an idiot quest giver and do a trivial quest) to EQ (Go to LGUK or Karnors Castle and try camping some really difficult area.)?
I'd take the NPC "grind" any day over the mindless quest shit you have in games like WoW. At least in EQ I felt like I was the character. I can't help but feel out of character when I'm playing WoW because of all the things they have in the game that remove the immersion (Quests, dumbing shit down, instancing, etc.)
It really sickens me how all of the new MMORPGs have quests, I'm really going to never play an MMORPG again if that is how it's going to be. They are just too simple anymore, and have no immersion. If I wanted a game without immersion I wouldn't be playing an MMORPG. I can hardly believe how anyone here would support a questing system such as the one that exists in WoW (it's really mindless and doesn't let you get into the game).
Really, I have no memory of leveling up in WoW, that is how un-memorable their questing system was. I don't even remember the quests, that is how meaningless they were. But I bet if you did a quest in EQ you would remember it (Epic quest, or Factioning quest).
Oh, so if it is called fame, it is right, it is meaningful. If it is called xp it is wrong. Why? No reason, just Wizardry says so.
Back to the topic. XP, gear, skills, all are just symbolic representation of the process called character progression. Levels are just index summary of various attributes that enhances certain aspects of the character in some actions in the game. A higher level warrior character (maybe actually played by a crippled 6 year old) will have more strength to wield heavier weapon, but still totally useless when called to open a lock or heal a dying NPC in the game. That is RPG.
Why would quest no matter? Role playing involves some character interacting in a game world. A game world inhabited by NPCs some friendly some hostile others to be made friends or enemies as the character interacts (faction). XP, faction, reputation, whatever, those are just digital representation of certain aspect of standing of the character in the game world. Quests? these are one of the ways the character interacts with NPCs.
The other aspect of gameplay in RPG is relationship with other players who shares the server/shard, that is where MMO comes in. We make friends, enemies, and instead of digital measures of faction, we have friend list, ignore list. Still behind the MMO is the fact that the game world is an RPG, where the character plays in the game world, not me. I play through him. I can play through multiple characters, we call alts. With each different alt loaded, I play totally differently.
It is call character progression. Learn the game Wizardry, blind hatred without reason won't get you anywhere.
You are living in your dreams, telling us old EQ players how things were what? superior in EQ? Stop preaching the nonsense. The EQ you talked about does not exist, except in your dreams.
EQ is pure grind. Instead of a lot of quests that are meaningless or whatever, EQ offers some dungeons or areas on the map with mobs and a rare chance of a named mob spawn. Everybody teams up and carve the map/dungeons into camps and sit there for hours killing the same boss forever. If he spawns.
Exploration, you are kidding me. Do we explore in EQ? No, we find the way to the camp, the safe route; we find the nearest druid or wizard portal. One way or another, we find our way to the camp, and we log out at the zone entrance / safe spot on map. Everyday we log on, we spam "healer lfg XYZ boss" and wait in line for a certain camp to open up a healer spot. We get into the camp and camp for hours, zone out and log out on that spot.
Tell me ghose stories about exploration, you can believe in that. I have EQ for years from day 1till I give up in Plane of Air. None of those ghost stories about EQ actually means much for EQ grinders. Not crafting, not mining, no nothing. Just straight up camping the boss for your level, if you got lucky enuf to get an invite.
I don't understand what you mean. How is an npc telling you to kill x number of beetles any different than you killing x number of beetles .. other than an npc telling you to do so?
So? Does the NPC with a quest stop you from killing beetles on your own initiative? No.
If you want to straight up grind go do it.
If someone else feels like dicing up grinding with some questlines, they have that option.
How does your argument discredit quests? Quests, storylines, story arc, lore, ... all these are just features and options that might help make a game experience richer, and they are all options. You do not need to read any of these. You can just go grind the same mob everyday and do not feel bothered. Options are not compulsory.
For those who care for options, options are improvements, for you they are transparent. Why is it not win win for all.
1. So if you added XP quests to EQ, it would automatically make all that exploration meaningless? What a bizarre though.
2. The difficulty of traveling places is completely off-topic tbh, and has nothing to do with questing for XP.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I dont think you'd know what the original EQ was even if it bit you on the ass. Everquest HAD quests. You had to actually talk to the NPC's and go through a dialog tree to get them but they were there. I remember vividly killing alot of orcs for belts and other ridiculous things. The grind in the game was horrorfic honestly if you didn't do those quests along with the grind...your leveling would be incredibly slow unless someone was power leveling you.
EQ is called Ever Q U E S T .. sure it didn't have a quest journal or people harrassing you to do quests but it had Quests. It had epic weapon quests, class quests, random kill X for X item quests etc etc. It always had those quests...I remember going through alot of paper writing those quests down since Quest Journals didn't exist and having to remember the NPC's name because there was no auto feature. I kinda like that they have that stuff now. I hate that some games are to Too Reliant on quests but glad its not a giant Grind like EQ was since you'd have to camp your ass in the same spot for days to level or get certain drops. in EQ you could do the quests and the mob grind...and it was still damn slow when you reached the Hell Levels...god it took them what 3+ years to figure out how to get rid of them..or supposedly get rid of them.
Quests have a purpose in RPG's...WoW and EQ and DDO etc are RPG's M M M O R P G's..that kinda implies quests. Games need to innovate their quest systems to something better than Kill X for a reward or Deliver this Pie etc ... but honestly...Quests are Necessary for those that don't want to camp their asss on the ground in an Huge MMO world all day long.
Oh and Exploration? Even in EQ you couldn't level by just Exploring...if you could I'd of reached 50 (the max at the time I played) in like no time since I dangerously went where ever I wanted regardless of my level..once I figured out how not to fall out of Kelenith. I also think its a crock you think that other games dont' make their zones dangerous? I remember dying quite alot while exploring in WoW. Go to an area 10+ levels higher than you..and you'd likely die if you didnt know the terrain first.... though they did make it ridiculously easy to travel in the Alliance lands.
I don't understand what you mean. How is an npc telling you to kill x number of beetles any different than you killing x number of beetles .. other than an npc telling you to do so?
So? Does the NPC with a quest stop you from killing beetles on your own initiative? No.
If you want to straight up grind go do it.
If someone else feels like dicing up grinding with some questlines, they have that option.
How does your argument discredit quests? Quests, storylines, story arc, lore, ... all these are just features and options that might help make a game experience richer, and they are all options. You do not need to read any of these. You can just go grind the same mob everyday and do not feel bothered. Options are not compulsory.
For those who care for options, options are improvements, for you they are transparent. Why is it not win win for all.
It's not a win win for all because doing questlines is far and away the most efficient way to progress. If quest grinding were an option that offered similar exp gain and item acquisition as mob grinding, I wouldn't have any qualms with the current system.
And as a side note, I really don't understand the "dicing up grinding with some questlines" statement. I really feel as though doing quest after quest of pointless "kill x" quests is as much a grind as anything else. In my opinion, your post should read "dicing up mob grinding with some quest grinding" because they are both repetitive and both "grindy" if you go into them with a certain mindset.
I dont think you'd know what the original EQ was even if it bit you on the ass. Everquest HAD quests. You had to actually talk to the NPC's and go through a dialog tree to get them but they were there. I remember vividly killing alot of orcs for belts and other ridiculous things. The grind in the game was horrorfic honestly if you didn't do those quests along with the grind...your leveling would be incredibly slow unless someone was power leveling you.
EQ is called Ever Q U E S T .. sure it didn't have a quest journal or people harrassing you to do quests but it had Quests. It had epic weapon quests, class quests, random kill X for X item quests etc etc. It always had those quests...I remember going through alot of paper writing those quests down since Quest Journals didn't exist and having to remember the NPC's name because there was no auto feature. I kinda like that they have that stuff now. I hate that some games are to Too Reliant on quests but glad its not a giant Grind like EQ was since you'd have to camp your ass in the same spot for days to level or get certain drops. in EQ you could do the quests and the mob grind...and it was still damn slow when you reached the Hell Levels...god it took them what 3+ years to figure out how to get rid of them..or supposedly get rid of them.
Quests have a purpose in RPG's...WoW and EQ and DDO etc are RPG's M M M O R P G's..that kinda implies quests. Games need to innovate their quest systems to something better than Kill X for a reward or Deliver this Pie etc ... but honestly...Quests are Necessary for those that don't want to camp their asss on the ground in an Huge MMO world all day long.
Oh and Exploration? Even in EQ you couldn't level by just Exploring...if you could I'd of reached 50 (the max at the time I played) in like no time since I dangerously went where ever I wanted regardless of my level..once I figured out how not to fall out of Kelenith. I also think its a crock you think that other games dont' make their zones dangerous? I remember dying quite alot while exploring in WoW. Go to an area 10+ levels higher than you..and you'd likely die if you didnt know the terrain first.... though they did make it ridiculously easy to travel in the Alliance lands.
Yeah, quote one line, then go on a rant about how "this was everquest" even though you say a lot of the same things I've just said in the post you are quoting.. whatever
I never said people level by exploring, but that EQ required exploration whereas WoW puts things all over the map because the designers thought their players were retarded. EQ never did that. Not only that, EQ had an exp loss + had to corpse run for dying, so you actual had to be cautious if you were roaming into an unknown area. Nowadays, no one fucking cares. If you die in WoW, just click a damn spirit healer and u instantly get everything back, you don't even lose exp. Exploring is not even fun when there isn't some kind of risk involved.
Also, there weren't any quests that made leveling that much faster at higher levels, unless you had an unlimited supply of CB belts or something stupid. Most people leveled up by grinding though, not the level 1 quests, kthx
Quests were generally for faction in EQ, not for getting from level 1-60.
Whining about hell levels? Lol. I'd rather level 60's not suck at the game than have to put up with a grind. Who cares? I mean, look at WoW. You can't even put together a PUG to raid anything because the players are so bad (the level 75's who get to level 75 through no effort). Then Blizzard had to continually dumb their game down because their players are of such low quality.
How about an MMORPG that requires some effort and skill in leveling (EQ)? At least when you are grinding, you gain some experience playing your own character in the role it was designed for (grouping + raiding). One of the reason WoW players suck so much is that they solo to level 75 through trivial quests / instances.
Yeah quests have real purpose in WoW, I get the feeling you didn't even read anything, you just quoted one line and went on a random rant that was already mentioned. Because if you read anything you would realize that the WoW quests are total bullshit and meaningless and have nothing to do with the game. Unless you think finding hay and feeding it to a random horse has some kind of depth.
I dont think you'd know what the original EQ was even if it bit you on the ass. Everquest HAD quests. You had to actually talk to the NPC's and go through a dialog tree to get them but they were there. I remember vividly killing alot of orcs for belts and other ridiculous things. The grind in the game was horrorfic honestly if you didn't do those quests along with the grind...your leveling would be incredibly slow unless someone was power leveling you.
EQ is called Ever Q U E S T .. sure it didn't have a quest journal or people harrassing you to do quests but it had Quests. It had epic weapon quests, class quests, random kill X for X item quests etc etc. It always had those quests...I remember going through alot of paper writing those quests down since Quest Journals didn't exist and having to remember the NPC's name because there was no auto feature. I kinda like that they have that stuff now. I hate that some games are to Too Reliant on quests but glad its not a giant Grind like EQ was since you'd have to camp your ass in the same spot for days to level or get certain drops. in EQ you could do the quests and the mob grind...and it was still damn slow when you reached the Hell Levels...god it took them what 3+ years to figure out how to get rid of them..or supposedly get rid of them.
Quests have a purpose in RPG's...WoW and EQ and DDO etc are RPG's M M M O R P G's..that kinda implies quests. Games need to innovate their quest systems to something better than Kill X for a reward or Deliver this Pie etc ... but honestly...Quests are Necessary for those that don't want to camp their asss on the ground in an Huge MMO world all day long.
Oh and Exploration? Even in EQ you couldn't level by just Exploring...if you could I'd of reached 50 (the max at the time I played) in like no time since I dangerously went where ever I wanted regardless of my level..once I figured out how not to fall out of Kelenith. I also think its a crock you think that other games dont' make their zones dangerous? I remember dying quite alot while exploring in WoW. Go to an area 10+ levels higher than you..and you'd likely die if you didnt know the terrain first.... though they did make it ridiculously easy to travel in the Alliance lands.
You're right, EQ had a lot of quests. The real difference as I see it is that questing in EQ was not the primary mode of progressing. As it stands currently, the only really efficient way to progress - especially through earlier content - is through solo questing. EQ was nothing like that. I think that's what the OP was getting at, but I could be wrong.
And I don't think it's at all fair to suggest that getting rid of the tons upon tons of solo questlines in current MMOs is equal to bringing back the camps of EQ1 (which you're right; they were awful). You can kill mobs by crawling through a dungeon from top to bottom, constantly moving as you clear new areas. Killing mobs in that way doesn't feel like a chore and can be a lot of fun. That's the sort of thing I think of when I think of "mob grinding" not the camp-style mob grinding of the past.