Originally posted by lotharr why in any game isnt something new what fight together, and why in any game you dont get XP in PvP ? respect that, respect that game, is it free? `·.¸¸.·´´¯`··._.·`·.¸¸.·´´¯`··._.·`·.¸¸.·´´¯`··._.·`·.¸¸.·´´¯`··._.·`·.¸¸.·´´¯`··._.·`·.¸¸.·´´¯`··._.· `·.¸¸.·´´¯`··._.·`·.¸¸.·´´¯`··._.·`·.¸¸.·´´¯`··._.·`·.¸¸.·´´¯`··._.·`·.¸¸.·´´¯`··._.·`·.¸¸.·´´¯`··._.·`·.¸¸.·´´¯`··._.·`·.¸¸.·´´¯`··._.·`·.¸¸.·´´¯`··._.·`·.¸¸.·´´¯`··._.·`·.¸¸.·´´¯`··._.·`·.¸¸.·´´¯`··._.· You Choose, but if you say like that to your friend you dont. Got it?why theres no monsters and cantinas where you can chat in Space MMORPG's?
God... i honestly feel stupider after i read his posts... what are all those symbols for?
In Guildwars they decided to change it so that you get XP from PVP, its not much but it helps if you only want to PVP and not do missions.
Originally posted by Orcc In Guildwars they decided to change it so that you get XP from PVP, its not much but it helps if you only want to PVP and not do missions.
in Freeworld you will get XP and Skill from PvP and it will be as much if you are fighting monsters. I don't see why you should want to force a PvP only player to do PvE.
The first thing I would like to say is that the best pvp enviornment depends on something completely outside of the game, which is the spirit of sportsmanship cultivated by the game. This depends completely on how the company runs the MMORPG.
Rules concerning griefing, exploiting, and encouraging the idea that people should apply real life morals to the pvp competition ruin the spirit of sportsmanship for the game. The effect of this is NOT ONLY to encourage people to seek out of character retribution for in character events, but to encourage people to react with anger to losing at all.
To put it simply, if people realize that it is immature and wrong to whine about the fact that they lost pvp or more accurately that they will only appear stupid by threatening bans etc then they will simply adapt and learn from losses.
You don't see people crying cheater in basketball everytime they lose. At least not anyone over the age of 5. You also don't see it in non mmorpg online games like fps'es.
Anyways getting past all of that the next most important thing IMO is the idea of gambling. In order to prevent stagnation in an MMORPG game there has to be a very carefully thought out gambling system implemented in the PVP system.
By this I mean, you die and you lose your ability to fight to some degree, you win and you gain some abilility to fight. The loss and gain does not have to be DIRECTLY tied to your ability to fight IE you might lose a weapon that was particuarly well constructed or you might lose an apartment that allows you to store more weapon parts which allows you to get weapons built faster when you need them.
Gambling also implies an element of unpredictability. That means you can't have any combat system which allows people to so carefully plan their actions that both sides know what the single best course of action is. (IE no sandwhich combat) FPS works... extremely complicated and well balanced RTS combat systems work (like UO's) etc..
With this understood I think there are different types of PVP scenarios that I would like to see tried.
PERMADEATH MMORPG:
One is a permadeath situation where the gamble includes your entire life. In order for this to work certain things would have to be true.
1) Levels and items could not have an absolute effect on pvp. The situation would have to model reality to some degree in that no matter how many items and how long a character had been alive fighting with a complete newbie would still be dangerous. Perhaps a power armoured expert ranger could be killed by some kid who jumps on his back and jams a knife in between his helmet and torso.
2) Leveling should be completely invisible. The purpose of this game is obviously not to powerlevel your character. You don't want players concentrating on this, except to know that their skills get better with use.
3) Leveling and gaining items should be really fast compared to other mmorpgs. This game should not have any time sinks whatsoever. It might be that the absolute highest levels and best use of skills could only be acheived by people who used their skills the most and therefore survived the longest but of course this should be modified by the average life expectancy of a player and not be wildly beyond it. Perhaps even skills such as tradeskilling should be hard to get to the highest level due to risk by requiring that they visit dangerous areas or do dangerous tasks. Of course these would have to be things that players might be inclined to do naturally by the enviornment since leveling is invisible. For example going to a battlefield and building a bridge for the troops. Which brings me to:
4) The game should be event or goal driven with goals other than leveling your character. Obviously people are going to want to creat uber character and get awesome items. Idealy though there should be some goal which drives the player such that even if they die, they are motivated to immediately get back into action to help accomplish the goal they were going for before their death. A good way of accomplishing this is to have things such as outposts which provide resources to make items with. Since it would make no sense for such resources to provide players with free levels, that means that these outposts be related to item aquisition. Therefore:
5) The game should be more item dependent than level dependent. This way aquiring resources that allowed a faction to produce better items would be more important to the player than his own character level.
One example of a leveling system which would go well with this type of game is FALLOUT's SPECIAL system.
Another type of pvp game I would like to see tried is this:
UBER CHARACTER MMORPG:
The basic idea behind this mmorpg is that there is absolutely NO specialization. Why? Because the idea of specialization is flawed. Fighters want to create weapons in an mmorpg only because it would allow them to fight better. If they have to specialize (and thus give up fighting) to create weapons than it destroys their motivation for wanting to create them. I believe this is something that developers are selfishly obsessed with (the desire to create a situation with a bunch of players working together so they can look at their creation like an ant farm or something) but has no value to the player. Instead I think there should be a game where each player has an endless amount of resourcefulness to deal with the enviornment. You might die and lose all your equipment only to respawn in a nearby forest, sharpen a stone on another, cut some wood off a tree and make a bow and arrow, and then sneak up behind your assailant a fairly short time later while he was still bragging and place an arrow between his shoulders killing him.
So what traits would I like to see this game have?
1) A complicated interconnected economic system: Basically you can gather resources from the natural enviornment and then use them to accomplish your goals. Maybe you mine ore in a cave and use it to make armour or kill creatures and use their carapace instead. All of these things are going to be able to be done by every character. There should be more than one way to accomplish a goal like weapon creation and more than one source of the same resources (but not too many, see #4). Perhaps each player could amass a collection of equipment that would help them create better items and that they would first need items to create. ( I can't help but mention the game "A tale in the Desert" and how awesome it would be as a PVP game)
2) Full item loss: All these skills would be useless if a player merely lost 5 gold or credits from a single death in pvp. Perhaps a player would have a camp, workshop or apartment where they could store items safely, but they loss any items they were using in a pvp death.
3) Fairly fast non restrictive leveling: Basically the amount of things a player could become proficient at would be limited only by the time spent using them. You don't want to have new players fighting with sticks and stones against players with automated Death Cannons and Impenatrable Power armour for months on end so therefore leveling should be pretty fast. Its ok if a players item development is limited by resource aquisition and capitol creation because whatever time this takes should be fun as the player explores and tries to create new equipment. But leveling is just a repetive time sink.
4) Resource based competition. Basically players should be fighting over resources to create better weapons and items. Perhaps there should be only one mine which contains the strongest metal for armour creation that only creates a limited amount. Whereas the least useful metal (or whatever material) for item creation might be all over the place and the ones inbetween scale accordingly. Also there might be alternatives such as rather than armour you might go somewhere else to gather resources to create invisibility technology (or magic).
5) Many types of combat: You might shoot at someone with a sniper rifle only to have them run into a some kind of net trap you created and then turn them in to someone else for a bounty, who they then escape from by breaking a chair and using a wooden steak to backstab their captor from a dark corner.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
Originally posted by Kriminal99 2) Leveling should be completely invisible. The purpose of this game is obviously not to powerlevel your character. You don't want players concentrating on this, except to know that their skills get better with use.
this post you made was great and well thought out......i just wanted to point out that i have been trying to get the rest of the team to agree with invisible levels for a long time....we are a skill based game...i don't see why the lvl needs to be displayed at all.....it is only used for internal math to determine when stats raise anyways
JohnyC from this forum posted this on our main forum and i wanted to post it here for discussion:
************ Guilds: ************
Create: to create a guild it should cost some kind of in game currency or a quested item to begin a guild that is not so easily obtainable
Crest: perhaps an arm/shoulder crest just a simple two colour crest system to start with. When creating the guild the GM sets the crest and is editable at any time
Abrev: a 1-4 letter abreviation for the guild set by the GM and displayed to other players
Titles/Advancement: should be able to be set by the GM, perhaps a 10 stage system from recruit to elite promoteable by the GM or set by the gm e.g. 5player kills (or kills of a specific mob) to move from recruit to rookie
Wars: Guilds should be able to declare war on another guild at any time, if accepted it should definately be known by all the guilds members that a guild war has begun betweeen (GuildA) and (GuildB).. members of guilds should be attackable by their opposing guild anywhere within Freeworld.. once for e.g. guildA has decided that they would like peace instead.. at any time they can declare a peace but it is shown in a stats system that GuildA defeated GuildB once..
you could even set a timer on this for e.g. its only possible to after the defeat of GuildA by GuildB and GuildA has declared peace they cannot war again for another week
Guild storage/Guild house/location: players should have the option at anytime to make their way on over to the guild house.. here is where a storage is located and useable by people over a certain rank within the guild or permitted by the GM
only more advanced guilds should be able to afford the house.. perhaps lower less advanced guilds can have an open camp near a tree or something =P with a storage and a few bedrolls and of course a campfire!
Allies: perhaps alliance system, if guild goes to war allied guilds are also at war.. but recieve no credit for the defeat (this makes it far wiser to have allies and powerful ones at that..)
*********** Factions: ***********
Guild Hometown/Faction: when fighting at their home city the guild should recieve a slight advantage (HP+2%Mana+2%Stamina+2%) the hometown/faction should be able to be set by only the GM and can clash with other guilds that are at war (fighting for the specific hometown/faction)
in the set hometown/faction items and purchaseable products should be available at 5% less for the guild defending that town that has set its hometown there (this enables for players to have a goal in joining to acquire items for cheaper)
Faction Guards/NPC's: new purchaseable/obtainable pets and mounts aswell as the faction guards that guard the hometown
Hometown/Faction Wars: members of other factions/hometowns are permanently at war with one another... they perhaps compete for the item that offers the +5% (We'll call it a jewel) when the jewel is obtained and stolen from an opposing faction for set amount of hours/time the faction recieves faction credits which allows for the obtainable npc's.. once NPC's are purchased by the factions leader the horse/pet vendors are useable by members of the faction.. the guards are permanent NPC's to guard specific spots, they can be killed and on an hourly respawn timer.. once the jewel is lost to an enemy faction all faction NPC's and bonuses are lost
The PK Town: Where all pk players can go to buy their goods n do their things, this is an OPEN pvp town with the NPC sell/buy rates higher than usual towns
The Bounty System: after a player is killed by another player a small bounty is placed upon the killer(50 gold) additional bounty can be placed upon the by the victim (up to 1000 gold)
If a player is not logged on for 3 days and has not killed another player in that time their bounty is removed
the game system could also supply an extra 50% or so of the bounty but this could lead to people placing 1000 gold on someone, killing him and gaining an extra 1000 gold
Killers: After 5 or so kills a player is no longer allowed to enter a town or set zone for a set amount of time, say 72 hours and is flagged as a killer to everyone else
Bounty Board: the bounty board is a place for players/bounty hunters to look for their next kill or who has the highest current bounty in their head.. the player with the highest bounty name would be located at the top of the board, followed by the price for his head... the player with the second highest bounty is located 1 below the player with the highest bounty and his price is also displayed.. and so on
Comments
God... i honestly feel stupider after i read his posts... what are all those symbols for?
In Guildwars they decided to change it so that you get XP from PVP, its not much but it helps if you only want to PVP and not do missions.
in Freeworld you will get XP and Skill from PvP and it will be as much if you are fighting monsters. I don't see why you should want to force a PvP only player to do PvE.
choice is good!
The first thing I would like to say is that the best pvp enviornment depends on something completely outside of the game, which is the spirit of sportsmanship cultivated by the game. This depends completely on how the company runs the MMORPG.
Rules concerning griefing, exploiting, and encouraging the idea that people should apply real life morals to the pvp competition ruin the spirit of sportsmanship for the game. The effect of this is NOT ONLY to encourage people to seek out of character retribution for in character events, but to encourage people to react with anger to losing at all.
To put it simply, if people realize that it is immature and wrong to whine about the fact that they lost pvp or more accurately that they will only appear stupid by threatening bans etc then they will simply adapt and learn from losses.
You don't see people crying cheater in basketball everytime they lose. At least not anyone over the age of 5. You also don't see it in non mmorpg online games like fps'es.
Anyways getting past all of that the next most important thing IMO is the idea of gambling. In order to prevent stagnation in an MMORPG game there has to be a very carefully thought out gambling system implemented in the PVP system.
By this I mean, you die and you lose your ability to fight to some degree, you win and you gain some abilility to fight. The loss and gain does not have to be DIRECTLY tied to your ability to fight IE you might lose a weapon that was particuarly well constructed or you might lose an apartment that allows you to store more weapon parts which allows you to get weapons built faster when you need them.
Gambling also implies an element of unpredictability. That means you can't have any combat system which allows people to so carefully plan their actions that both sides know what the single best course of action is. (IE no sandwhich combat) FPS works... extremely complicated and well balanced RTS combat systems work (like UO's) etc..
With this understood I think there are different types of PVP scenarios that I would like to see tried.
PERMADEATH MMORPG:
One is a permadeath situation where the gamble includes your entire life. In order for this to work certain things would have to be true.
1) Levels and items could not have an absolute effect on pvp. The situation would have to model reality to some degree in that no matter how many items and how long a character had been alive fighting with a complete newbie would still be dangerous. Perhaps a power armoured expert ranger could be killed by some kid who jumps on his back and jams a knife in between his helmet and torso.
2) Leveling should be completely invisible. The purpose of this game is obviously not to powerlevel your character. You don't want players concentrating on this, except to know that their skills get better with use.
3) Leveling and gaining items should be really fast compared to other mmorpgs. This game should not have any time sinks whatsoever. It might be that the absolute highest levels and best use of skills could only be acheived by people who used their skills the most and therefore survived the longest but of course this should be modified by the average life expectancy of a player and not be wildly beyond it. Perhaps even skills such as tradeskilling should be hard to get to the highest level due to risk by requiring that they visit dangerous areas or do dangerous tasks. Of course these would have to be things that players might be inclined to do naturally by the enviornment since leveling is invisible. For example going to a battlefield and building a bridge for the troops. Which brings me to:
4) The game should be event or goal driven with goals other than leveling your character. Obviously people are going to want to creat uber character and get awesome items. Idealy though there should be some goal which drives the player such that even if they die, they are motivated to immediately get back into action to help accomplish the goal they were going for before their death. A good way of accomplishing this is to have things such as outposts which provide resources to make items with. Since it would make no sense for such resources to provide players with free levels, that means that these outposts be related to item aquisition. Therefore:
5) The game should be more item dependent than level dependent. This way aquiring resources that allowed a faction to produce better items would be more important to the player than his own character level.
One example of a leveling system which would go well with this type of game is FALLOUT's SPECIAL system.
Another type of pvp game I would like to see tried is this:
UBER CHARACTER MMORPG:
The basic idea behind this mmorpg is that there is absolutely NO specialization. Why? Because the idea of specialization is flawed. Fighters want to create weapons in an mmorpg only because it would allow them to fight better. If they have to specialize (and thus give up fighting) to create weapons than it destroys their motivation for wanting to create them. I believe this is something that developers are selfishly obsessed with (the desire to create a situation with a bunch of players working together so they can look at their creation like an ant farm or something) but has no value to the player. Instead I think there should be a game where each player has an endless amount of resourcefulness to deal with the enviornment. You might die and lose all your equipment only to respawn in a nearby forest, sharpen a stone on another, cut some wood off a tree and make a bow and arrow, and then sneak up behind your assailant a fairly short time later while he was still bragging and place an arrow between his shoulders killing him.
So what traits would I like to see this game have?
1) A complicated interconnected economic system: Basically you can gather resources from the natural enviornment and then use them to accomplish your goals. Maybe you mine ore in a cave and use it to make armour or kill creatures and use their carapace instead. All of these things are going to be able to be done by every character. There should be more than one way to accomplish a goal like weapon creation and more than one source of the same resources (but not too many, see #4). Perhaps each player could amass a collection of equipment that would help them create better items and that they would first need items to create. ( I can't help but mention the game "A tale in the Desert" and how awesome it would be as a PVP game)
2) Full item loss: All these skills would be useless if a player merely lost 5 gold or credits from a single death in pvp. Perhaps a player would have a camp, workshop or apartment where they could store items safely, but they loss any items they were using in a pvp death.
3) Fairly fast non restrictive leveling: Basically the amount of things a player could become proficient at would be limited only by the time spent using them. You don't want to have new players fighting with sticks and stones against players with automated Death Cannons and Impenatrable Power armour for months on end so therefore leveling should be pretty fast. Its ok if a players item development is limited by resource aquisition and capitol creation because whatever time this takes should be fun as the player explores and tries to create new equipment. But leveling is just a repetive time sink.
4) Resource based competition. Basically players should be fighting over resources to create better weapons and items. Perhaps there should be only one mine which contains the strongest metal for armour creation that only creates a limited amount. Whereas the least useful metal (or whatever material) for item creation might be all over the place and the ones inbetween scale accordingly. Also there might be alternatives such as rather than armour you might go somewhere else to gather resources to create invisibility technology (or magic).
5) Many types of combat: You might shoot at someone with a sniper rifle only to have them run into a some kind of net trap you created and then turn them in to someone else for a bounty, who they then escape from by breaking a chair and using a wooden steak to backstab their captor from a dark corner.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
wow Kriminal99 that is a serious post!
ill take time to read it all and comment a little later tonight
JohnyC from this forum posted this on our main forum and i wanted to post it here for discussion:
************
Guilds:
************
Create: to create a guild it should cost some kind of in game currency or a quested item to begin a guild that is not so easily obtainable
Crest: perhaps an arm/shoulder crest just a simple two colour crest system to start with. When creating the guild the GM sets the crest and is editable at any time
Abrev: a 1-4 letter abreviation for the guild set by the GM and displayed to other players
Titles/Advancement: should be able to be set by the GM, perhaps a 10 stage system from recruit to elite promoteable by the GM or set by the gm e.g. 5player kills (or kills of a specific mob) to move from recruit to rookie
Wars: Guilds should be able to declare war on another guild at any time, if accepted it should definately be known by all the guilds members that a guild war has begun betweeen (GuildA) and (GuildB).. members of guilds should be attackable by their opposing guild anywhere within Freeworld.. once for e.g. guildA has decided that they would like peace instead.. at any time they can declare a peace but it is shown in a stats system that GuildA defeated GuildB once..
you could even set a timer on this for e.g. its only possible to after the defeat of GuildA by GuildB and GuildA has declared peace they cannot war again for another week
Guild storage/Guild house/location: players should have the option at anytime to make their way on over to the guild house.. here is where a storage is located and useable by people over a certain rank within the guild or permitted by the GM
only more advanced guilds should be able to afford the house.. perhaps lower less advanced guilds can have an open camp near a tree or something =P with a storage and a few bedrolls and of course a campfire!
Allies: perhaps alliance system, if guild goes to war allied guilds are also at war.. but recieve no credit for the defeat (this makes it far wiser to have allies and powerful ones at that..)
***********
Factions:
***********
Guild Hometown/Faction: when fighting at their home city the guild should recieve a slight advantage (HP+2%Mana+2%Stamina+2%) the hometown/faction should be able to be set by only the GM and can clash with other guilds that are at war (fighting for the specific hometown/faction)
in the set hometown/faction items and purchaseable products should be available at 5% less for the guild defending that town that has set its hometown there (this enables for players to have a goal in joining to acquire items for cheaper)
Faction Guards/NPC's: new purchaseable/obtainable pets and mounts aswell as the faction guards that guard the hometown
Hometown/Faction Wars: members of other factions/hometowns are permanently at war with one another... they perhaps compete for the item that offers the +5% (We'll call it a jewel) when the jewel is obtained and stolen from an opposing faction for set amount of hours/time the faction recieves faction credits which allows for the obtainable npc's.. once NPC's are purchased by the factions leader the horse/pet vendors are useable by members of the faction.. the guards are permanent NPC's to guard specific spots, they can be killed and on an hourly respawn timer.. once the jewel is lost to an enemy faction all faction NPC's and bonuses are lost
**************************
Bounty/PK system:
**************************
The PK Town: Where all pk players can go to buy their goods n do their things, this is an OPEN pvp town with the NPC sell/buy rates higher than usual towns
The Bounty System: after a player is killed by another player a small bounty is placed upon the killer(50 gold) additional bounty can be placed upon the by the victim (up to 1000 gold)
If a player is not logged on for 3 days and has not killed another player in that time their bounty is removed
the game system could also supply an extra 50% or so of the bounty but this could lead to people placing 1000 gold on someone, killing him and gaining an extra 1000 gold
Killers: After 5 or so kills a player is no longer allowed to enter a town or set zone for a set amount of time, say 72 hours and is flagged as a killer to everyone else
Bounty Board: the bounty board is a place for players/bounty hunters to look for their next kill or who has the highest current bounty in their head.. the player with the highest bounty name would be located at the top of the board, followed by the price for his head... the player with the second highest bounty is located 1 below the player with the highest bounty and his price is also displayed.. and so on