As one of the many dirty, dirty gays apparently responsible for destroying America and opposite marriages worldwide, thanks for your article. I check into game sites like this pretty much daily M-F just to see what is the latest on upcoming games… sometimes I glance at the forums, but seldom linger. Just as most of the posters wouldn’t want my gay to rub off on them, I even more so don’t want their stupid to rub off on me. I’m really happily surprised that most of the responses on this thread have actually been pretty supportive on behalf of gays. Thanks for that.
Electronic arts, for all its (deservedly or not) criticism that I’ve read about, is doing something pretty smart. The behemoth that is the Sims was introduced to me way back… when I overheard that it was for “fags, because you could be one.” I got the game. I actually teared up when I realized that I could have a male/male couple in the game. I don’t think straight people really appreciate that they’re in a world that is tailored for them… initial assumptions, social or work environments, every “appropriate” relationship, organizations… religious or secular… even every inane commercial that you fast forward through on your DVR is for you. For safety or even survival, many of us who don’t belong in that world have to act like we do. And then this… tiny crumb… fell from your big table… I could have a freaking boyfriend in this simple, monotonous game of Sims 2. Oh, yeah… some gamers really dog on the Electronic Arts. But I bought Every. Freaking. Expansion. Even the Ikea one. Oh, yeah, I got your Ikea right here, buddy. Ikea. Ikea? Ugh, god. And I highly doubt that I’m that only gay guy that did.
Gays and lesbians who play computers… just like straight boys and girls… plunge themselves headfirst into their pixilated lives and want to live vicariously through a hero, not the villain they’re accused of being in reality. Will Wright or somebody at EA must’ve known that gay gamers were literally starving for the tiniest sliver of not just recognition… but immersion.
Now I’m playing Dragon Age. And I feel like boinking an elf today.
More right wing fanatics trying to impose their morals on everyone else. What's new?
Apparently homosexuality is the root of all evil and is the most pressing concern to conservatives.
Then again, global warming is a myth. (lol).
Hahaha, there isn't even graphic sexual positions in this game like they claim. You kiss the person and lie down (with underwear and bra still on) and the scene ends!
Apparently the writers have something against spooning.
Spooning! Oh, the horror! What is this world coming to when we can watch 2 males spoon in a video game. We are all doomed I tell you! Repent now!
Yes, spoony love. How dreadful it tis.
I seriously don't have an issue with people who have a set of values, morals, whatever you want to call it, and they live by them. Especially if those values don't infringe or try to dictate how others live.
It's when people like this get up on their soapboxes, virtual or on the street corner, is when I get upset. I don't go around spouting of my values and morals. I keep them to myself. I expect the same in return. If I ask you for yours, by all means, talk to my ears bleed. If I don't, then STFU.
Yeah, kinda like spewing liberal drivel on a gaming website. How oppressive.
Well, if you want to make an assumption on my political affiliations based on that little information, then I'll make one on your 53 years of age and being from Iowa. Vote for Palin again and see where it gets ya!
Wasnt just you i was referring too but considering how well Obama has worked out anyone including Palin might bring some of the "hope" your grasping for.
Not a chance in hell. The day she's elected is the day I move to Canada or England.
That's one thing I never understood about you guys. You want "everyone else" to shut up and let your guy finish their terms before they're judged yet hell has a chance of freezing over before you'll extend that same courtesy should your guy lose office. You want patience when your guy is in, and immediate results (with zero positive aid from your side) when the other guy is in.
I mean, seriously, there is no way you can compare the whiny droning of Al Franken, Keith Olberman and Rachel Maddow (all who annoy me but I give Keith slack because of his stint on ESPN) to the hate speech of Bill O'reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Shawn Hannity, and Ann Coulter. Well, unless you are in lock-step with the latter in which case there is no point in discussing it.
As for "hope", I have none for this country as long as Rush, Bill, Shawn and Ann are on the television and/or radio and people still vote for a Palin. When a certain generation dies out and the "old ways" are gone and it's left to these young kids who exhibit a ton more tolerance than those in power right now...then, only then, might I have some hope.
I'm 32 now and I'm talking when/if I make it to 72 and above.
It is strange the folks who espouse freedom of speech only want it for those they agree with. That’s not what the first amendment means. If you support “Free Speech”, you must support it for everyone, even those who you hate. Free Speech for just the “Politically Correct”, no matter their ideology, is no speech at all. This is the same attitude from the Left, as you see from the Right who would censor these games.
A certain responsibility comes with "free speech". If you and others can't comprehend that then "free speech" becomes dangerous. Can it Political correctness, or whatever you like, but there is a responsibility that comes with using words.
As stated by Edward Bulwer-Lytton: The pen is mightier than the sword.
The words of Limbaugh, Coulter, Hannity and O'reilly have drawn an immeasurable amount of blood.
The answer to speech you deplore is more speech not censorship. This is the argument that every demagogue uses to silence his or her opponents. The ACLU defended the right of the Klan to march in Skokie, no matter how despicable the Klan is, they still enjoy the right of free speech guaranteed by the Constitution. If you don’t understand that, you understand nothing about “Freedom”.
If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.
Noam Chomsky
The very aim and end of our institutions is just this: that we may think what we like and say what we think. * Oliver Wendell Holmes
We live in oppressive times. We have, as a nation, become our own thought police; but instead of calling the process by which we limit our expression of dissent and wonder "censorship," we call it "concern for commercial viability." · * David Mamet
I am of course confident that I will fulfill my tasks as a writer in all circumstances--from my grave even more successfully and more irrefutably than in my lifetime. No one can bar the road to truth, and to advance its cause I am prepared to accept even death. But may it be that repeated lessons will finally teach us not to stop the writer's pen during his lifetime? At no time has this ennobled our history. * Alexander Solzhenitsyn
More right wing fanatics trying to impose their morals on everyone else. What's new?
Apparently homosexuality is the root of all evil and is the most pressing concern to conservatives.
Then again, global warming is a myth. (lol).
Hahaha, there isn't even graphic sexual positions in this game like they claim. You kiss the person and lie down (with underwear and bra still on) and the scene ends!
Apparently the writers have something against spooning.
Spooning! Oh, the horror! What is this world coming to when we can watch 2 males spoon in a video game. We are all doomed I tell you! Repent now!
Yes, spoony love. How dreadful it tis.
I seriously don't have an issue with people who have a set of values, morals, whatever you want to call it, and they live by them. Especially if those values don't infringe or try to dictate how others live.
It's when people like this get up on their soapboxes, virtual or on the street corner, is when I get upset. I don't go around spouting of my values and morals. I keep them to myself. I expect the same in return. If I ask you for yours, by all means, talk to my ears bleed. If I don't, then STFU.
Yeah, kinda like spewing liberal drivel on a gaming website. How oppressive.
Well, if you want to make an assumption on my political affiliations based on that little information, then I'll make one on your 53 years of age and being from Iowa. Vote for Palin again and see where it gets ya!
Wasnt just you i was referring too but considering how well Obama has worked out anyone including Palin might bring some of the "hope" your grasping for.
Not a chance in hell. The day she's elected is the day I move to Canada or England.
That's one thing I never understood about you guys. You want "everyone else" to shut up and let your guy finish their terms before they're judged yet hell has a chance of freezing over before you'll extend that same courtesy should your guy lose office. You want patience when your guy is in, and immediate results (with zero positive aid from your side) when the other guy is in.
I mean, seriously, there is no way you can compare the whiny droning of Al Franken, Keith Olberman and Rachel Maddow (all who annoy me but I give Keith slack because of his stint on ESPN) to the hate speech of Bill O'reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Shawn Hannity, and Ann Coulter. Well, unless you are in lock-step with the latter in which case there is no point in discussing it.
As for "hope", I have none for this country as long as Rush, Bill, Shawn and Ann are on the television and/or radio and people still vote for a Palin. When a certain generation dies out and the "old ways" are gone and it's left to these young kids who exhibit a ton more tolerance than those in power right now...then, only then, might I have some hope.
I'm 32 now and I'm talking when/if I make it to 72 and above.
It is strange the folks who espouse freedom of speech only want it for those they agree with. That’s not what the first amendment means. If you support “Free Speech”, you must support it for everyone, even those who you hate. Free Speech for just the “Politically Correct”, no matter their ideology, is no speech at all. This is the same attitude from the Left, as you see from the Right who would censor these games.
A certain responsibility comes with "free speech". If you and others can't comprehend that then "free speech" becomes dangerous. Can it Political correctness, or whatever you like, but there is a responsibility that comes with using words.
As stated by Edward Bulwer-Lytton: The pen is mightier than the sword.
The words of Limbaugh, Coulter, Hannity and O'reilly have drawn an immeasurable amount of blood.
Unless they have actualy developed those sonic weapons that were depicted in Dune then "speech" in actuality has never caused a single drop of blood to be shed. What actualy causes blood to be shed is people CHOOSING to ACT upon such speech. Responsibility for any blood spilt lies solidly in the hands of the people CHOOSING to spill it.
The idea that there is "speech/expressions/viewpoints" that is acceptable to be heard and speech that isn't (a viewpoint often taken by the hard Left) is frankly more dangerous, chilling, and authoritarian then anything that has been spewed by Limbaugh, Coulter, Hannity and O'reilly combined. Frankly, I find their hyperbole often over the top...but on a fair amount of topics I often agree with much of what those individuals have to say..... I guess in your world view....I should be what? Shipped off to a Gulag for holding such opinions?
The bottom line is that in a free country... ALL ideas, no matter how stupid or objectionable are deserving of the opportunity to be heard. That's what makes our country great. We don't have any God-Kings sitting around passing judgement upon what we are are allowed or not allowed to hear.....as if we are infants who are incapable of hearing things which might be harmful to us, unable to think for ourselves and unaccountable for our own actions.
If it isn't illegal to represent content in a game (at the time of release), why not provide the option? The choices of a character (READ: not a person) should encompass as many of those faced in life as possible for the ultimate RPG experience. Choices around religion, sexuality, etc should all be a part of that. This should include all lifestyles (that are not illegal). Note that you can perform in unusual relations but not get married to those individuals; some US states should be quite pleased.
If these groups had, as a collective, twice the intellectual competence of its most rational and intelligent member, I doubt they would grasp that it is the repressive nature of said groups that spreads misinformation and fear to others. Personally, I feel that any social element functions properly as long as it does not restrict the freedoms and choices of others. We, as humans, have the right to explore our environment, to interact with others in peaceful and inquisitive ways, so as to better understand ourselves and those around us.
Societies function best when they envision each human being as someone looking to embrace the things around it, mentally, physically, emotionally, and spiritually. If we allow WND or other groups to pollute our minds with propaganda that excludes and marginalizes others based on choices that have no impact on how we choose to live our lives, then we all suffer for it. Those things we recoil from, that we treat with disgust or fear, those are the things that will ultimately make us better people if we come to terms with them and can find a peaceful balance toward said encounters. It is WND that has been presented with a challenge in the game DA:O, and instead of taking the time to understand that this game promotes far more than "dirty gay sex," they have instead mislabeled these scenes as such without fully understanding the context that surrounds them.
Knowing this, it behooves us all to wish for the lifting of the veil of ignorance from the eyes of those who belong to WND or who share their views, and to do our best to share a more calm, reasoned approach to such material which may eventually reach the hearts and minds of those clouded by fear and ignorance. I would never suggest that someone believe homosexual relationships are "right," in a definitive sense, only that they should be allowed within the context of a person's individual right to choose what is and is not appropriate for him or herself. It is no business of mine what two consenting adults decide to do when it comes to intimacy, I only ask that they respect my right to not be exposed to it in a public venue.
Groups like WND don't worry me much, since I believe that we all strive for greater understanding and inclusion at a core level, one far more intrinsic to our nature than the fear and hate that WND is trying to spread.
Homosexuality, multiple-partner sex, bestiality, and adultery are all forms of sexual deviance that are morally wrong in almost every culture. Protesting against blatant sexual deviance is not homophobia. However protesting against sexual deviance in a game where the object is to run around killing people is a bit absurd.
First of all to claim deviance you have to accept that there is a norm that is being deviated from. And you just can't do that. People all over the world throughout all times have done different things to get off. The idea that a sexual behavior is deviant is false.
Those things are not morally wrong in every culture. I understand that since you think those things are deviant, you also think that 'right-thinking' people all over the world agree with you, but its just not the case.
Now lets assume for the sake of argument that there is a sexual norm, and the things you listed do indeed deviate from that norm. That still doesn't mean those things are wrong, or morally wrong. Different doesn't mean wrong. Also you can't show any harm, so protesting against gay people IS homophobia.
The permissiveness of the US secular culture does not extend to the rest of the world. These acts ARE morally wrong in almost every culture. In some cultures, it even goes so far as to be punished by the death penalty for those who get caught in such situations. If you disagree, go to Saudi Arabia and practice homosexuality publicly.
Despite your wishing otherwise, morally wrong is morally wrong. Those with moral standards have the right to protest against that which they find immoral. Protesting against public display of sexual deviance is not homophobia, it's an attempt to bring moral values to their community and dissuade those practicing deviant behavior from committing immoral acts. The harm is to both those witnessing the acts and those committing them. If you were to stop someone who was about to cut off their hand, would you be handectomyphobic? No, you'd be expressing concern for that person's well-being.
Homosexuality, multiple-partner sex, bestiality, and adultery are all forms of sexual deviance that are morally wrong in almost every culture. Protesting against blatant sexual deviance is not homophobia. However protesting against sexual deviance in a game where the object is to run around killing people is a bit absurd.
First of all to claim deviance you have to accept that there is a norm that is being deviated from. And you just can't do that. People all over the world throughout all times have done different things to get off. The idea that a sexual behavior is deviant is false.
Those things are not morally wrong in every culture. I understand that since you think those things are deviant, you also think that 'right-thinking' people all over the world agree with you, but its just not the case.
Now lets assume for the sake of argument that there is a sexual norm, and the things you listed do indeed deviate from that norm. That still doesn't mean those things are wrong, or morally wrong. Different doesn't mean wrong. Also you can't show any harm, so protesting against gay people IS homophobia.
The permissiveness of the US secular culture does not extend to the rest of the world. These acts ARE morally wrong in almost every culture. In some cultures, it even goes so far as to be punished by the death penalty for those who get caught in such situations. If you disagree, go to Saudi Arabia and practice homosexuality publicly.
Despite your wishing otherwise, morally wrong is morally wrong. Those with moral standards have the right to protest against that which they find immoral. Protesting against public display of sexual deviance is not homophobia, it's an attempt to bring moral values to their community and dissuade those practicing deviant behavior from committing immoral acts. The harm is to both those witnessing the acts and those committing them. If you were to stop someone who was about to cut off their hand, would you be handectomyphobic? No, you'd be expressing concern for that person's well-being.
That's not even remotely true.
Romans, Greeks and all sorts of other cultures throughout history were completely OK with homosexuality. Historically speaking, in Western culture at least, this moral outcry is a relatively (IE: in the hundreds of years) new development.
Sure, there are cultures where you cannot openly be gay, but there are also cultures where you cannot eat certain animals on certain days of the week. Every culture has its quirks.
But to paint that with such a complete brush is absolutely absurd from a historical point of view.
The fact is, modern science should tell people thinking homosexuality is a choice or immoral is ridiculous. Biologically speaking, 10% of ducks are gay. Get over it.
Dana Massey Formerly of MMORPG.com Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
If you are a consenting adult, whom you choose to have sex with is nobodies business as long as you don’t do it in the street, scaring horses and young children.
Tolkien's work is one of the fill fantasy creations that has no sex (in a explicit way) just becouse the author had serious issues against human desire (you can search for it), even so you can find sexuality in his work. Have you ever read Children of Hurin? It has incest, although the brother and sister did not know they were related. As you stated Tolkien did not have explicit sexual content. I'm not sure you're correct on his having issues with human desire. He was married and had children. I thought the lack of explicit sexual content has more to do with his morals and the time that he wrote his books.
It is an interesting subject Tolroc, I am not sure I can find some source for you now. But there are a couple of letters from Tolkien to his son that gives a good example about his view on desire and its destructive side. Not judging his personal view of course but this detail somehow explain some aspects in his work.
I did not read Children of Hurin it seems to be interesting I will look for it.
Isn't Children of Hurin the one his son assembled from his notes?
If so, it's possible that's why it's the one example of it in the guy's works.
Well, the destructive side of "desire" IS a strongly recurring theme in Tolkiens works....it's just that it's often more about other flavors of desire (power, wealth, security, glory, etc) then sex. However you can see hints of the dark side of sexual desire even in LOTR. For instance look at the character of Grima and some of his motivations for betraying Rohan.
The thing about Tolkien is that he likes to be subtle in his writing (IMO).....where other authors will tend to hit you over the head with explicit descriptions of things...often times Tolkien just hints at it.
Tolkien's work is one of the fill fantasy creations that has no sex (in a explicit way) just becouse the author had serious issues against human desire (you can search for it), even so you can find sexuality in his work. Have you ever read Children of Hurin? It has incest, although the brother and sister did not know they were related. As you stated Tolkien did not have explicit sexual content. I'm not sure you're correct on his having issues with human desire. He was married and had children. I thought the lack of explicit sexual content has more to do with his morals and the time that he wrote his books.
It is an interesting subject Tolroc, I am not sure I can find some source for you now. But there are a couple of letters from Tolkien to his son that gives a good example about his view on desire and its destructive side. Not judging his personal view of course but this detail somehow explain some aspects in his work.
I did not read Children of Hurin it seems to be interesting I will look for it.
Isn't Children of Hurin the one his son assembled from his notes?
If so, it's possible that's why it's the one example of it in the guy's works.
Yes it was assembled by his son Christopher from his notes, rough drafts, and a couple of unfinished epic poems. However, without giving too much away, the incest portion of the story is so integral to the plot that I don't see Christopher coming up with that on his own.
I didn't have a problem with any of the relationships in the game. It was my choice as to who I wanted to be with and whether or not I remained faithful to that person. This is the 21st century and I dont think same-sex relationships should be a big deal anymore. Heck it was not that long ago that conservatives would get all bent out of shape if a black man dated a white woman.
That being said, the "sex" scenes in the game are actually rather lame. In Mass Effect, the scene seemed more fluid motion like real people would. It also seemed more "natural" as in the way two people who cared about each other, and thought they would be dead tomorrow, would act. The DAO scenes are more cuddle than sex, and are identical in almost every way. Seems like Bioware just changed the head and body type (male/female) for the scene. This is why the lesbian scene looks "off" for lack of a better word.
Maybe Bioware was cowed by the negative press over the ME sex scene so made a half-a** cuddle scene in DAO? Considering that in virtually every trailer for DAO we saw that we could score with Morrigan, when we actually got to that point it seemed quite a let down. Not that I was looking forward to some "digital bewbies" mind you, it's just the scene in DAO wasn't as good as the one in ME, like it didn't fit right. It seemed thrown on as an afterthought for the T&A sales pitch.
More right wing fanatics trying to impose their morals on everyone else. What's new?
I couldn't care less what a mature rated game contains. Its the parent's responsibility to know what the kiddies are whatching.
This attitude on the part of World News Daily reflects how little veting is done. They get a juicy topic and run with it. Check it out first??? Naaa, this puppy is hot!
Assumptions are made based on pre-concieved notions about what is going on....much like the above quote!!!!!
World News isn't a 'radical right wing publication. It is a liberal...and I use the term loosely :P.
Quote fron World News Daily info on a search:
A daily round-up of the latest international news from msnbc.com and its partners, including NBC News, Newsweek and the Washington Post. With features and analysis by NBC reporters ...
These are hardly right wing pubs. It would seem Khalathwyr has the same problem with judging something based on his/her own blind bias
More right wing fanatics trying to impose their morals on everyone else. What's new?
I couldn't care less what a mature rated game contains. Its the parent's responsibility to know what the kiddies are whatching.
This attitude on the part of World News Daily reflects how little veting is done. They get a juicy topic and run with it. Check it out first??? Naaa, this puppy is hot!
Assumptions are made based on pre-concieved notions about what is going on....much like the above quote!!!!!
World News isn't a 'radical right wing publication. It is a liberal...and I use the term loosely :P.
Quote fron World News Daily info on a search:
A daily round-up of the latest international news from msnbc.com and its partners, including NBC News, Newsweek and the Washington Post. With features and analysis by NBC reporters ...
These are hardly right wing pubs. It would seem Khalathwyr has the same problem with judging something based on his/her own blind bias
This is just another "news story" to keep people from thinking about all the good things that socialism has brought to the world.
More right wing fanatics trying to impose their morals on everyone else. What's new?
I couldn't care less what a mature rated game contains. Its the parent's responsibility to know what the kiddies are whatching.
This attitude on the part of World News Daily reflects how little veting is done. They get a juicy topic and run with it. Check it out first??? Naaa, this puppy is hot!
Assumptions are made based on pre-concieved notions about what is going on....much like the above quote!!!!!
World News isn't a 'radical right wing publication. It is a liberal...and I use the term loosely :P.
Quote fron World News Daily info on a search:
A daily round-up of the latest international news from msnbc.com and its partners, including NBC News, Newsweek and the Washington Post. With features and analysis by NBC reporters ...
These are hardly right wing pubs. It would seem Khalathwyr has the same problem with judging something based on his/her own blind bias
Not that it terribly matters, but WND is very much a conservative outlet. It features Ann Coulture!
That said, that point is largely irrelevant. I can think of plenty of liberal politicians who would have freaked out about this game too.
Dana Massey Formerly of MMORPG.com Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
My main character is a female mage and I ended up selecting dialog in camp that led to a kiss between her and on of the female party members. It was the "Joan of Arc" character who thinks she hears "The Maker" speak to her from time to time.
Well in regards to what's right and wrong, seems a subjective, opinionated thing... I mean right and wrong are not absolutes as these things vary from society to society, from country to country, and from decade to decade.
In the 40's there were no bikinis, and to show leg above the knee was considered wrong...
As far as having a choice in dialog outcomes, and story arc forking, it's a refreshing change to see that actualy dialog can make a difference and offer the gamer variety and what seems like a true "cause and effect" to the choices made, wether they are personal between the npcs, or part of the greater, main story arc.
Also, I don't like the idea of being limited by right-wing conservatives. If they don't like the ideas and/or content of a game, then don't buy it; and don't take that choice away from me...
This thread is so long im not sure if this has been coverd BUT,
what about the game/designers intention of making a story. Bioware has always been about making fantastic stories.
Relationships are part of stories. Friendships and romances are key elements in telling stories. Bioware has evolved telling better interactive stories with moral implications. Sex and violence are key components of great stories. They did not stand still and remain the same they evolved. Bioware has put the choices there for the players to make, important choices for your character. Maybe you kill someone, maybe you help the needy, maybe you fall in love with your friend, maybe you fall in love with your same sex friend.
These are choices given to us by great story tellers. The want the best interactive story they can make for you and me. They feel the more choices we have available to us, the better the story.
Bioware are interactive story artists
Art isn't smut.
HA HA
Asheron's Call, Champions Online, Dark Age of Camelot, EVE Online, EverQuest, Lineage 2, Star Wars Galaxies and World of Warcraft.Waiting for SWTOR
More right wing fanatics trying to impose their morals on everyone else. What's new?
Apparently homosexuality is the root of all evil and is the most pressing concern to conservatives.
Then again, global warming is a myth. (lol).
Hahaha, there isn't even graphic sexual positions in this game like they claim. You kiss the person and lie down (with underwear and bra still on) and the scene ends!
Apparently the writers have something against spooning.
Spooning! Oh, the horror! What is this world coming to when we can watch 2 males spoon in a video game. We are all doomed I tell you! Repent now!
Yes, spoony love. How dreadful it tis.
I seriously don't have an issue with people who have a set of values, morals, whatever you want to call it, and they live by them. Especially if those values don't infringe or try to dictate how others live.
It's when people like this get up on their soapboxes, virtual or on the street corner, is when I get upset. I don't go around spouting of my values and morals. I keep them to myself. I expect the same in return. If I ask you for yours, by all means, talk to my ears bleed. If I don't, then STFU.
Yeah, kinda like spewing liberal drivel on a gaming website. How oppressive.
Well, if you want to make an assumption on my political affiliations based on that little information, then I'll make one on your 53 years of age and being from Iowa. Vote for Palin again and see where it gets ya!
Wasnt just you i was referring too but considering how well Obama has worked out anyone including Palin might bring some of the "hope" your grasping for.
Not a chance in hell. The day she's elected is the day I move to Canada or England.
That's one thing I never understood about you guys. You want "everyone else" to shut up and let your guy finish their terms before they're judged yet hell has a chance of freezing over before you'll extend that same courtesy should your guy lose office. You want patience when your guy is in, and immediate results (with zero positive aid from your side) when the other guy is in.
I mean, seriously, there is no way you can compare the whiny droning of Al Franken, Keith Olberman and Rachel Maddow (all who annoy me but I give Keith slack because of his stint on ESPN) to the hate speech of Bill O'reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Shawn Hannity, and Ann Coulter. Well, unless you are in lock-step with the latter in which case there is no point in discussing it.
As for "hope", I have none for this country as long as Rush, Bill, Shawn and Ann are on the television and/or radio and people still vote for a Palin. When a certain generation dies out and the "old ways" are gone and it's left to these young kids who exhibit a ton more tolerance than those in power right now...then, only then, might I have some hope.
I'm 32 now and I'm talking when/if I make it to 72 and above.
It is strange the folks who espouse freedom of speech only want it for those they agree with. That’s not what the first amendment means. If you support “Free Speech”, you must support it for everyone, even those who you hate. Free Speech for just the “Politically Correct”, no matter their ideology, is no speech at all. This is the same attitude from the Left, as you see from the Right who would censor these games.
A certain responsibility comes with "free speech". If you and others can't comprehend that then "free speech" becomes dangerous. Can it Political correctness, or whatever you like, but there is a responsibility that comes with using words.
As stated by Edward Bulwer-Lytton: The pen is mightier than the sword.
The words of Limbaugh, Coulter, Hannity and O'reilly have drawn an immeasurable amount of blood.
The answer to speech you deplore is more speech not censorship. This is the argument that every demagogue uses to silence his or her opponents. The ACLU defended the right of the Klan to march in Skokie, no matter how despicable the Klan is, they still enjoy the right of free speech guaranteed by the Constitution. If you don’t understand that, you understand nothing about “Freedom”.
If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.
Noam Chomsky
The very aim and end of our institutions is just this: that we may think what we like and say what we think. * Oliver Wendell Holmes
We live in oppressive times. We have, as a nation, become our own thought police; but instead of calling the process by which we limit our expression of dissent and wonder "censorship," we call it "concern for commercial viability." · * David Mamet
I am of course confident that I will fulfill my tasks as a writer in all circumstances--from my grave even more successfully and more irrefutably than in my lifetime. No one can bar the road to truth, and to advance its cause I am prepared to accept even death. But may it be that repeated lessons will finally teach us not to stop the writer's pen during his lifetime? At no time has this ennobled our history. * Alexander Solzhenitsyn
I understand more about freedom than you know. But my time in the Army isn't the topic here. Please, by all means, continue to justify your embrace of hate with quotes that I'll not agree had such hate in mind when stated. There certainly is a line of demarkation between Chomsky's dislike of the Vietnam War and the rhetoric the 4 horsemen I mention above spew.
And as for you harping on the point I want to censor anyone, you first need to comprehend what you read, I never said to do such to anyone. I would appreciate it in kind if you would end the accusations of such. Quite the contrary, I'd prefer those of you who enjoy the hate speech to be quite vocal. It's always good to know which way is downrange.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Homosexuality, multiple-partner sex, bestiality, and adultery are all forms of sexual deviance that are morally wrong in almost every culture. Protesting against blatant sexual deviance is not homophobia. However protesting against sexual deviance in a game where the object is to run around killing people is a bit absurd.
First of all to claim deviance you have to accept that there is a norm that is being deviated from. And you just can't do that. People all over the world throughout all times have done different things to get off. The idea that a sexual behavior is deviant is false.
Those things are not morally wrong in every culture. I understand that since you think those things are deviant, you also think that 'right-thinking' people all over the world agree with you, but its just not the case.
Now lets assume for the sake of argument that there is a sexual norm, and the things you listed do indeed deviate from that norm. That still doesn't mean those things are wrong, or morally wrong. Different doesn't mean wrong. Also you can't show any harm, so protesting against gay people IS homophobia.
The permissiveness of the US secular culture does not extend to the rest of the world. These acts ARE morally wrong in almost every culture. In some cultures, it even goes so far as to be punished by the death penalty for those who get caught in such situations. If you disagree, go to Saudi Arabia and practice homosexuality publicly.
Despite your wishing otherwise, morally wrong is morally wrong. Those with moral standards have the right to protest against that which they find immoral. Protesting against public display of sexual deviance is not homophobia, it's an attempt to bring moral values to their community and dissuade those practicing deviant behavior from committing immoral acts. The harm is to both those witnessing the acts and those committing them. If you were to stop someone who was about to cut off their hand, would you be handectomyphobic? No, you'd be expressing concern for that person's well-being.
That's not even remotely true.
Romans, Greeks and all sorts of other cultures throughout history were completely OK with homosexuality. Historically speaking, in Western culture at least, this moral outcry is a relatively (IE: in the hundreds of years) new development.
Sure, there are cultures where you cannot openly be gay, but there are also cultures where you cannot eat certain animals on certain days of the week. Every culture has its quirks.
But to paint that with such a complete brush is absolutely absurd from a historical point of view.
The fact is, modern science should tell people thinking homosexuality is a choice or immoral is ridiculous. Biologically speaking, 10% of ducks are gay. Get over it.
Your entire pro-deviance argument is that humans are incapable of thinking beyond their sexual organs, so we should just have sex with anything that moves, regardless of morality, social consequences, marital consequences, or medical consequences. That's absurd. If that's really how you feel, all I can say is maybe you should grow up and stop thinking with what's in your pants. "If it feels good, do it" will hurt you and anyone close to you. Look how well this attitude is going over for Tiger Woods and his family. Use Tiger's experience as an example that this lifestyle is wrong and change your attitude while you can.
Historically, you are wrong. Roman and Greek culture didn't start out so open. In fact, historians have argued that the excessive lack of morality towards the end of those ancient cultures were what tipped the balance and caused those cultures to fail.
More right wing fanatics trying to impose their morals on everyone else. What's new?
I couldn't care less what a mature rated game contains. Its the parent's responsibility to know what the kiddies are whatching.
This attitude on the part of World News Daily reflects how little veting is done. They get a juicy topic and run with it. Check it out first??? Naaa, this puppy is hot!
Assumptions are made based on pre-concieved notions about what is going on....much like the above quote!!!!!
World News isn't a 'radical right wing publication. It is a liberal...and I use the term loosely :P.
Quote fron World News Daily info on a search:
A daily round-up of the latest international news from msnbc.com and its partners, including NBC News, Newsweek and the Washington Post. With features and analysis by NBC reporters ...
These are hardly right wing pubs. It would seem Khalathwyr has the same problem with judging something based on his/her own blind bias
I have no problem judging any more than you do. Entities that are so frontwardly religious are most time right-wing. Just because they pick up news from those sites doesn't mean they are liberal. They could be picking it up in order to refute it. Admittedly I don't know as I have desire to go to the site. Right, left, fanaticism is bad, to me, no matter the direction.
Oh, and as you don't know me, you can lump yourself into the category you just through me in as you committed the same act.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
More right wing fanatics trying to impose their morals on everyone else. What's new?
I couldn't care less what a mature rated game contains. Its the parent's responsibility to know what the kiddies are whatching.
This attitude on the part of World News Daily reflects how little veting is done. They get a juicy topic and run with it. Check it out first??? Naaa, this puppy is hot!
Assumptions are made based on pre-concieved notions about what is going on....much like the above quote!!!!!
World News isn't a 'radical right wing publication. It is a liberal...and I use the term loosely :P.
Quote fron World News Daily info on a search:
A daily round-up of the latest international news from msnbc.com and its partners, including NBC News, Newsweek and the Washington Post. With features and analysis by NBC reporters ...
These are hardly right wing pubs. It would seem Khalathwyr has the same problem with judging something based on his/her own blind bias
This is just another "news story" to keep people from thinking about all the good things that socialism has brought to the world.
Yeah, cause you're an authority on the socialism.
"Duck and cover"
Sorry pops, the 1950s are gone. Socialism, just like the beloved Free Market Capitalism we have, are all viable and all dependent on the power mongers running them. You have a corrupt elite running them, and they all are doomed to fail, which I think history has proven now.
To blame the system shows you know nothing about the system. It's the people implementing them that caused them to fail.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
@battleaxe: You use the word morality and deviant too freely based on what I see as a limited understanding of both. Morality is a social convention of right and wrong, not an absolute understanding of right and wrong. Morality and morally acceptable behavior varies from culture to culture, and within the same cultures as they evolve over time. Using morality to make your argument pretty much invalidates your argument from the outset, as generally accepted morals are by no means comprehensive, or even that enlightened in most cases. Morals tend to exist primarily to help people interact in positive ways for the betterment of all. I don't see how your short-sighted views are in any way, shape or form mirroring the morality you stand behind.
As for deviant behaviors, anything that deviates from a moral standard can be termed "deviant," but again, only in how it relates to the subjective views of right and wrong within a culture. While deviant is a powerful word on the surface, at the core, it's as hollow as morality when you fully understand the meaning of it.
More right wing fanatics trying to impose their morals on everyone else. What's new?
I couldn't care less what a mature rated game contains. Its the parent's responsibility to know what the kiddies are whatching.
This attitude on the part of World News Daily reflects how little veting is done. They get a juicy topic and run with it. Check it out first??? Naaa, this puppy is hot!
Assumptions are made based on pre-concieved notions about what is going on....much like the above quote!!!!!
World News isn't a 'radical right wing publication. It is a liberal...and I use the term loosely :P.
Quote fron World News Daily info on a search:
A daily round-up of the latest international news from msnbc.com and its partners, including NBC News, Newsweek and the Washington Post. With features and analysis by NBC reporters ...
These are hardly right wing pubs. It would seem Khalathwyr has the same problem with judging something based on his/her own blind bias
This is just another "news story" to keep people from thinking about all the good things that socialism has brought to the world.
Yeah, cause you're an authority on the socialism.
"Duck and cover"
Sorry pops, the 1950s are gone. Socialism, just like the beloved Free Market Capitalism we have, are all viable and all dependent on the power mongers running them. You have a corrupt elite running them, and they all are doomed to fail, which I think history has proven now.
To blame the system shows you know nothing about the system. It's the people implementing them that caused them to fail.
yeah im stuck in the past i guess, i see how well socialism has worked and cant wait for Obama's corruption to make it fail here.
Comments
As one of the many dirty, dirty gays apparently responsible for destroying America and opposite marriages worldwide, thanks for your article. I check into game sites like this pretty much daily M-F just to see what is the latest on upcoming games… sometimes I glance at the forums, but seldom linger. Just as most of the posters wouldn’t want my gay to rub off on them, I even more so don’t want their stupid to rub off on me. I’m really happily surprised that most of the responses on this thread have actually been pretty supportive on behalf of gays. Thanks for that.
Electronic arts, for all its (deservedly or not) criticism that I’ve read about, is doing something pretty smart. The behemoth that is the Sims was introduced to me way back… when I overheard that it was for “fags, because you could be one.” I got the game. I actually teared up when I realized that I could have a male/male couple in the game. I don’t think straight people really appreciate that they’re in a world that is tailored for them… initial assumptions, social or work environments, every “appropriate” relationship, organizations… religious or secular… even every inane commercial that you fast forward through on your DVR is for you. For safety or even survival, many of us who don’t belong in that world have to act like we do. And then this… tiny crumb… fell from your big table… I could have a freaking boyfriend in this simple, monotonous game of Sims 2. Oh, yeah… some gamers really dog on the Electronic Arts. But I bought Every. Freaking. Expansion. Even the Ikea one. Oh, yeah, I got your Ikea right here, buddy. Ikea. Ikea? Ugh, god. And I highly doubt that I’m that only gay guy that did.
Gays and lesbians who play computers… just like straight boys and girls… plunge themselves headfirst into their pixilated lives and want to live vicariously through a hero, not the villain they’re accused of being in reality. Will Wright or somebody at EA must’ve known that gay gamers were literally starving for the tiniest sliver of not just recognition… but immersion.
Now I’m playing Dragon Age. And I feel like boinking an elf today.
Bah, he'll only break your heart.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Apparently homosexuality is the root of all evil and is the most pressing concern to conservatives.
Then again, global warming is a myth. (lol).
Hahaha, there isn't even graphic sexual positions in this game like they claim. You kiss the person and lie down (with underwear and bra still on) and the scene ends!
Apparently the writers have something against spooning.
Spooning! Oh, the horror! What is this world coming to when we can watch 2 males spoon in a video game. We are all doomed I tell you! Repent now!
Yes, spoony love. How dreadful it tis.
I seriously don't have an issue with people who have a set of values, morals, whatever you want to call it, and they live by them. Especially if those values don't infringe or try to dictate how others live.
It's when people like this get up on their soapboxes, virtual or on the street corner, is when I get upset. I don't go around spouting of my values and morals. I keep them to myself. I expect the same in return. If I ask you for yours, by all means, talk to my ears bleed. If I don't, then STFU.
Yeah, kinda like spewing liberal drivel on a gaming website. How oppressive.
Well, if you want to make an assumption on my political affiliations based on that little information, then I'll make one on your 53 years of age and being from Iowa. Vote for Palin again and see where it gets ya!
Wasnt just you i was referring too but considering how well Obama has worked out anyone including Palin might bring some of the "hope" your grasping for.
Not a chance in hell. The day she's elected is the day I move to Canada or England.
That's one thing I never understood about you guys. You want "everyone else" to shut up and let your guy finish their terms before they're judged yet hell has a chance of freezing over before you'll extend that same courtesy should your guy lose office. You want patience when your guy is in, and immediate results (with zero positive aid from your side) when the other guy is in.
I mean, seriously, there is no way you can compare the whiny droning of Al Franken, Keith Olberman and Rachel Maddow (all who annoy me but I give Keith slack because of his stint on ESPN) to the hate speech of Bill O'reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Shawn Hannity, and Ann Coulter. Well, unless you are in lock-step with the latter in which case there is no point in discussing it.
As for "hope", I have none for this country as long as Rush, Bill, Shawn and Ann are on the television and/or radio and people still vote for a Palin. When a certain generation dies out and the "old ways" are gone and it's left to these young kids who exhibit a ton more tolerance than those in power right now...then, only then, might I have some hope.
I'm 32 now and I'm talking when/if I make it to 72 and above.
It is strange the folks who espouse freedom of speech only want it for those they agree with. That’s not what the first amendment means. If you support “Free Speech”, you must support it for everyone, even those who you hate. Free Speech for just the “Politically Correct”, no matter their ideology, is no speech at all. This is the same attitude from the Left, as you see from the Right who would censor these games.
A certain responsibility comes with "free speech". If you and others can't comprehend that then "free speech" becomes dangerous. Can it Political correctness, or whatever you like, but there is a responsibility that comes with using words.
As stated by Edward Bulwer-Lytton: The pen is mightier than the sword.
The words of Limbaugh, Coulter, Hannity and O'reilly have drawn an immeasurable amount of blood.
The answer to speech you deplore is more speech not censorship. This is the argument that every demagogue uses to silence his or her opponents. The ACLU defended the right of the Klan to march in Skokie, no matter how despicable the Klan is, they still enjoy the right of free speech guaranteed by the Constitution. If you don’t understand that, you understand nothing about “Freedom”.
If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.
Noam Chomsky
The very aim and end of our institutions is just this: that we may think what we like and say what we think. * Oliver Wendell Holmes
We live in oppressive times. We have, as a nation, become our own thought police; but instead of calling the process by which we limit our expression of dissent and wonder "censorship," we call it "concern for commercial viability." · * David Mamet
I am of course confident that I will fulfill my tasks as a writer in all circumstances--from my grave even more successfully and more irrefutably than in my lifetime. No one can bar the road to truth, and to advance its cause I am prepared to accept even death. But may it be that repeated lessons will finally teach us not to stop the writer's pen during his lifetime? At no time has this ennobled our history. * Alexander Solzhenitsyn
Apparently homosexuality is the root of all evil and is the most pressing concern to conservatives.
Then again, global warming is a myth. (lol).
Hahaha, there isn't even graphic sexual positions in this game like they claim. You kiss the person and lie down (with underwear and bra still on) and the scene ends!
Apparently the writers have something against spooning.
Spooning! Oh, the horror! What is this world coming to when we can watch 2 males spoon in a video game. We are all doomed I tell you! Repent now!
Yes, spoony love. How dreadful it tis.
I seriously don't have an issue with people who have a set of values, morals, whatever you want to call it, and they live by them. Especially if those values don't infringe or try to dictate how others live.
It's when people like this get up on their soapboxes, virtual or on the street corner, is when I get upset. I don't go around spouting of my values and morals. I keep them to myself. I expect the same in return. If I ask you for yours, by all means, talk to my ears bleed. If I don't, then STFU.
Yeah, kinda like spewing liberal drivel on a gaming website. How oppressive.
Well, if you want to make an assumption on my political affiliations based on that little information, then I'll make one on your 53 years of age and being from Iowa. Vote for Palin again and see where it gets ya!
Wasnt just you i was referring too but considering how well Obama has worked out anyone including Palin might bring some of the "hope" your grasping for.
Not a chance in hell. The day she's elected is the day I move to Canada or England.
That's one thing I never understood about you guys. You want "everyone else" to shut up and let your guy finish their terms before they're judged yet hell has a chance of freezing over before you'll extend that same courtesy should your guy lose office. You want patience when your guy is in, and immediate results (with zero positive aid from your side) when the other guy is in.
I mean, seriously, there is no way you can compare the whiny droning of Al Franken, Keith Olberman and Rachel Maddow (all who annoy me but I give Keith slack because of his stint on ESPN) to the hate speech of Bill O'reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Shawn Hannity, and Ann Coulter. Well, unless you are in lock-step with the latter in which case there is no point in discussing it.
As for "hope", I have none for this country as long as Rush, Bill, Shawn and Ann are on the television and/or radio and people still vote for a Palin. When a certain generation dies out and the "old ways" are gone and it's left to these young kids who exhibit a ton more tolerance than those in power right now...then, only then, might I have some hope.
I'm 32 now and I'm talking when/if I make it to 72 and above.
It is strange the folks who espouse freedom of speech only want it for those they agree with. That’s not what the first amendment means. If you support “Free Speech”, you must support it for everyone, even those who you hate. Free Speech for just the “Politically Correct”, no matter their ideology, is no speech at all. This is the same attitude from the Left, as you see from the Right who would censor these games.
A certain responsibility comes with "free speech". If you and others can't comprehend that then "free speech" becomes dangerous. Can it Political correctness, or whatever you like, but there is a responsibility that comes with using words.
As stated by Edward Bulwer-Lytton: The pen is mightier than the sword.
The words of Limbaugh, Coulter, Hannity and O'reilly have drawn an immeasurable amount of blood.
Unless they have actualy developed those sonic weapons that were depicted in Dune then "speech" in actuality has never caused a single drop of blood to be shed. What actualy causes blood to be shed is people CHOOSING to ACT upon such speech. Responsibility for any blood spilt lies solidly in the hands of the people CHOOSING to spill it.
The idea that there is "speech/expressions/viewpoints" that is acceptable to be heard and speech that isn't (a viewpoint often taken by the hard Left) is frankly more dangerous, chilling, and authoritarian then anything that has been spewed by Limbaugh, Coulter, Hannity and O'reilly combined. Frankly, I find their hyperbole often over the top...but on a fair amount of topics I often agree with much of what those individuals have to say..... I guess in your world view....I should be what? Shipped off to a Gulag for holding such opinions?
The bottom line is that in a free country... ALL ideas, no matter how stupid or objectionable are deserving of the opportunity to be heard. That's what makes our country great. We don't have any God-Kings sitting around passing judgement upon what we are are allowed or not allowed to hear.....as if we are infants who are incapable of hearing things which might be harmful to us, unable to think for ourselves and unaccountable for our own actions.
If it isn't illegal to represent content in a game (at the time of release), why not provide the option? The choices of a character (READ: not a person) should encompass as many of those faced in life as possible for the ultimate RPG experience. Choices around religion, sexuality, etc should all be a part of that. This should include all lifestyles (that are not illegal). Note that you can perform in unusual relations but not get married to those individuals; some US states should be quite pleased.
If these groups had, as a collective, twice the intellectual competence of its most rational and intelligent member, I doubt they would grasp that it is the repressive nature of said groups that spreads misinformation and fear to others. Personally, I feel that any social element functions properly as long as it does not restrict the freedoms and choices of others. We, as humans, have the right to explore our environment, to interact with others in peaceful and inquisitive ways, so as to better understand ourselves and those around us.
Societies function best when they envision each human being as someone looking to embrace the things around it, mentally, physically, emotionally, and spiritually. If we allow WND or other groups to pollute our minds with propaganda that excludes and marginalizes others based on choices that have no impact on how we choose to live our lives, then we all suffer for it. Those things we recoil from, that we treat with disgust or fear, those are the things that will ultimately make us better people if we come to terms with them and can find a peaceful balance toward said encounters. It is WND that has been presented with a challenge in the game DA:O, and instead of taking the time to understand that this game promotes far more than "dirty gay sex," they have instead mislabeled these scenes as such without fully understanding the context that surrounds them.
Knowing this, it behooves us all to wish for the lifting of the veil of ignorance from the eyes of those who belong to WND or who share their views, and to do our best to share a more calm, reasoned approach to such material which may eventually reach the hearts and minds of those clouded by fear and ignorance. I would never suggest that someone believe homosexual relationships are "right," in a definitive sense, only that they should be allowed within the context of a person's individual right to choose what is and is not appropriate for him or herself. It is no business of mine what two consenting adults decide to do when it comes to intimacy, I only ask that they respect my right to not be exposed to it in a public venue.
Groups like WND don't worry me much, since I believe that we all strive for greater understanding and inclusion at a core level, one far more intrinsic to our nature than the fear and hate that WND is trying to spread.
First of all to claim deviance you have to accept that there is a norm that is being deviated from. And you just can't do that. People all over the world throughout all times have done different things to get off. The idea that a sexual behavior is deviant is false.
Those things are not morally wrong in every culture. I understand that since you think those things are deviant, you also think that 'right-thinking' people all over the world agree with you, but its just not the case.
Now lets assume for the sake of argument that there is a sexual norm, and the things you listed do indeed deviate from that norm. That still doesn't mean those things are wrong, or morally wrong. Different doesn't mean wrong. Also you can't show any harm, so protesting against gay people IS homophobia.
The permissiveness of the US secular culture does not extend to the rest of the world. These acts ARE morally wrong in almost every culture. In some cultures, it even goes so far as to be punished by the death penalty for those who get caught in such situations. If you disagree, go to Saudi Arabia and practice homosexuality publicly.
Despite your wishing otherwise, morally wrong is morally wrong. Those with moral standards have the right to protest against that which they find immoral. Protesting against public display of sexual deviance is not homophobia, it's an attempt to bring moral values to their community and dissuade those practicing deviant behavior from committing immoral acts. The harm is to both those witnessing the acts and those committing them. If you were to stop someone who was about to cut off their hand, would you be handectomyphobic? No, you'd be expressing concern for that person's well-being.
thats what i love about
First of all to claim deviance you have to accept that there is a norm that is being deviated from. And you just can't do that. People all over the world throughout all times have done different things to get off. The idea that a sexual behavior is deviant is false.
Those things are not morally wrong in every culture. I understand that since you think those things are deviant, you also think that 'right-thinking' people all over the world agree with you, but its just not the case.
Now lets assume for the sake of argument that there is a sexual norm, and the things you listed do indeed deviate from that norm. That still doesn't mean those things are wrong, or morally wrong. Different doesn't mean wrong. Also you can't show any harm, so protesting against gay people IS homophobia.
The permissiveness of the US secular culture does not extend to the rest of the world. These acts ARE morally wrong in almost every culture. In some cultures, it even goes so far as to be punished by the death penalty for those who get caught in such situations. If you disagree, go to Saudi Arabia and practice homosexuality publicly.
Despite your wishing otherwise, morally wrong is morally wrong. Those with moral standards have the right to protest against that which they find immoral. Protesting against public display of sexual deviance is not homophobia, it's an attempt to bring moral values to their community and dissuade those practicing deviant behavior from committing immoral acts. The harm is to both those witnessing the acts and those committing them. If you were to stop someone who was about to cut off their hand, would you be handectomyphobic? No, you'd be expressing concern for that person's well-being.
That's not even remotely true.
Romans, Greeks and all sorts of other cultures throughout history were completely OK with homosexuality. Historically speaking, in Western culture at least, this moral outcry is a relatively (IE: in the hundreds of years) new development.
Sure, there are cultures where you cannot openly be gay, but there are also cultures where you cannot eat certain animals on certain days of the week. Every culture has its quirks.
But to paint that with such a complete brush is absolutely absurd from a historical point of view.
The fact is, modern science should tell people thinking homosexuality is a choice or immoral is ridiculous. Biologically speaking, 10% of ducks are gay. Get over it.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
If you are a consenting adult, whom you choose to have sex with is nobodies business as long as you don’t do it in the street, scaring horses and young children.
It is an interesting subject Tolroc, I am not sure I can find some source for you now. But there are a couple of letters from Tolkien to his son that gives a good example about his view on desire and its destructive side. Not judging his personal view of course but this detail somehow explain some aspects in his work.
I did not read Children of Hurin it seems to be interesting I will look for it.
Isn't Children of Hurin the one his son assembled from his notes?
If so, it's possible that's why it's the one example of it in the guy's works.
Well, the destructive side of "desire" IS a strongly recurring theme in Tolkiens works....it's just that it's often more about other flavors of desire (power, wealth, security, glory, etc) then sex. However you can see hints of the dark side of sexual desire even in LOTR. For instance look at the character of Grima and some of his motivations for betraying Rohan.
The thing about Tolkien is that he likes to be subtle in his writing (IMO).....where other authors will tend to hit you over the head with explicit descriptions of things...often times Tolkien just hints at it.
It is an interesting subject Tolroc, I am not sure I can find some source for you now. But there are a couple of letters from Tolkien to his son that gives a good example about his view on desire and its destructive side. Not judging his personal view of course but this detail somehow explain some aspects in his work.
I did not read Children of Hurin it seems to be interesting I will look for it.
Isn't Children of Hurin the one his son assembled from his notes?
If so, it's possible that's why it's the one example of it in the guy's works.
Yes it was assembled by his son Christopher from his notes, rough drafts, and a couple of unfinished epic poems. However, without giving too much away, the incest portion of the story is so integral to the plot that I don't see Christopher coming up with that on his own.
Have I derailed this thread enough?
I didn't have a problem with any of the relationships in the game. It was my choice as to who I wanted to be with and whether or not I remained faithful to that person. This is the 21st century and I dont think same-sex relationships should be a big deal anymore. Heck it was not that long ago that conservatives would get all bent out of shape if a black man dated a white woman.
That being said, the "sex" scenes in the game are actually rather lame. In Mass Effect, the scene seemed more fluid motion like real people would. It also seemed more "natural" as in the way two people who cared about each other, and thought they would be dead tomorrow, would act. The DAO scenes are more cuddle than sex, and are identical in almost every way. Seems like Bioware just changed the head and body type (male/female) for the scene. This is why the lesbian scene looks "off" for lack of a better word.
Maybe Bioware was cowed by the negative press over the ME sex scene so made a half-a** cuddle scene in DAO? Considering that in virtually every trailer for DAO we saw that we could score with Morrigan, when we actually got to that point it seemed quite a let down. Not that I was looking forward to some "digital bewbies" mind you, it's just the scene in DAO wasn't as good as the one in ME, like it didn't fit right. It seemed thrown on as an afterthought for the T&A sales pitch.
I couldn't care less what a mature rated game contains. Its the parent's responsibility to know what the kiddies are whatching.
This attitude on the part of World News Daily reflects how little veting is done. They get a juicy topic and run with it. Check it out first??? Naaa, this puppy is hot!
Assumptions are made based on pre-concieved notions about what is going on....much like the above quote!!!!!
World News isn't a 'radical right wing publication. It is a liberal...and I use the term loosely :P.
Quote fron World News Daily info on a search:
A daily round-up of the latest international news from msnbc.com and its partners, including NBC News, Newsweek and the Washington Post. With features and analysis by NBC reporters ...
These are hardly right wing pubs. It would seem Khalathwyr has the same problem with judging something based on his/her own blind bias
Every "controversy" that I seem to see lately is in relation to homosexuality.
Are you serious? What year are we living in?
Why is it that having this hardcore aggressive games are somehow let by and sex is "evil"?
o.O Why the hell do we have the stupid rating system if people are going to b.... and moan regardless?
It's sad, it's annoying, just get over it, seriously.
You can't blame companies for taking out a game which plainly states the content it contains.
People make it seem like children have absolutely no control over their actions, and that is utter bs.
?¡UNiCõRNS!?
I couldn't care less what a mature rated game contains. Its the parent's responsibility to know what the kiddies are whatching.
This attitude on the part of World News Daily reflects how little veting is done. They get a juicy topic and run with it. Check it out first??? Naaa, this puppy is hot!
Assumptions are made based on pre-concieved notions about what is going on....much like the above quote!!!!!
World News isn't a 'radical right wing publication. It is a liberal...and I use the term loosely :P.
Quote fron World News Daily info on a search:
A daily round-up of the latest international news from msnbc.com and its partners, including NBC News, Newsweek and the Washington Post. With features and analysis by NBC reporters ...
These are hardly right wing pubs. It would seem Khalathwyr has the same problem with judging something based on his/her own blind bias
This is just another "news story" to keep people from thinking about all the good things that socialism has brought to the world.
I couldn't care less what a mature rated game contains. Its the parent's responsibility to know what the kiddies are whatching.
This attitude on the part of World News Daily reflects how little veting is done. They get a juicy topic and run with it. Check it out first??? Naaa, this puppy is hot!
Assumptions are made based on pre-concieved notions about what is going on....much like the above quote!!!!!
World News isn't a 'radical right wing publication. It is a liberal...and I use the term loosely :P.
Quote fron World News Daily info on a search:
A daily round-up of the latest international news from msnbc.com and its partners, including NBC News, Newsweek and the Washington Post. With features and analysis by NBC reporters ...
These are hardly right wing pubs. It would seem Khalathwyr has the same problem with judging something based on his/her own blind bias
Not that it terribly matters, but WND is very much a conservative outlet. It features Ann Coulture!
That said, that point is largely irrelevant. I can think of plenty of liberal politicians who would have freaked out about this game too.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
My main character is a female mage and I ended up selecting dialog in camp that led to a kiss between her and on of the female party members. It was the "Joan of Arc" character who thinks she hears "The Maker" speak to her from time to time.
Well in regards to what's right and wrong, seems a subjective, opinionated thing... I mean right and wrong are not absolutes as these things vary from society to society, from country to country, and from decade to decade.
In the 40's there were no bikinis, and to show leg above the knee was considered wrong...
As far as having a choice in dialog outcomes, and story arc forking, it's a refreshing change to see that actualy dialog can make a difference and offer the gamer variety and what seems like a true "cause and effect" to the choices made, wether they are personal between the npcs, or part of the greater, main story arc.
Also, I don't like the idea of being limited by right-wing conservatives. If they don't like the ideas and/or content of a game, then don't buy it; and don't take that choice away from me...
This thread is so long im not sure if this has been coverd BUT,
what about the game/designers intention of making a story. Bioware has always been about making fantastic stories.
Relationships are part of stories. Friendships and romances are key elements in telling stories. Bioware has evolved telling better interactive stories with moral implications. Sex and violence are key components of great stories. They did not stand still and remain the same they evolved. Bioware has put the choices there for the players to make, important choices for your character. Maybe you kill someone, maybe you help the needy, maybe you fall in love with your friend, maybe you fall in love with your same sex friend.
These are choices given to us by great story tellers. The want the best interactive story they can make for you and me. They feel the more choices we have available to us, the better the story.
Bioware are interactive story artists
Art isn't smut.
HA HA
Asheron's Call, Champions Online, Dark Age of Camelot, EVE Online, EverQuest, Lineage 2, Star Wars Galaxies and World of Warcraft.Waiting for SWTOR
Apparently homosexuality is the root of all evil and is the most pressing concern to conservatives.
Then again, global warming is a myth. (lol).
Hahaha, there isn't even graphic sexual positions in this game like they claim. You kiss the person and lie down (with underwear and bra still on) and the scene ends!
Apparently the writers have something against spooning.
Spooning! Oh, the horror! What is this world coming to when we can watch 2 males spoon in a video game. We are all doomed I tell you! Repent now!
Yes, spoony love. How dreadful it tis.
I seriously don't have an issue with people who have a set of values, morals, whatever you want to call it, and they live by them. Especially if those values don't infringe or try to dictate how others live.
It's when people like this get up on their soapboxes, virtual or on the street corner, is when I get upset. I don't go around spouting of my values and morals. I keep them to myself. I expect the same in return. If I ask you for yours, by all means, talk to my ears bleed. If I don't, then STFU.
Yeah, kinda like spewing liberal drivel on a gaming website. How oppressive.
Well, if you want to make an assumption on my political affiliations based on that little information, then I'll make one on your 53 years of age and being from Iowa. Vote for Palin again and see where it gets ya!
Wasnt just you i was referring too but considering how well Obama has worked out anyone including Palin might bring some of the "hope" your grasping for.
Not a chance in hell. The day she's elected is the day I move to Canada or England.
That's one thing I never understood about you guys. You want "everyone else" to shut up and let your guy finish their terms before they're judged yet hell has a chance of freezing over before you'll extend that same courtesy should your guy lose office. You want patience when your guy is in, and immediate results (with zero positive aid from your side) when the other guy is in.
I mean, seriously, there is no way you can compare the whiny droning of Al Franken, Keith Olberman and Rachel Maddow (all who annoy me but I give Keith slack because of his stint on ESPN) to the hate speech of Bill O'reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Shawn Hannity, and Ann Coulter. Well, unless you are in lock-step with the latter in which case there is no point in discussing it.
As for "hope", I have none for this country as long as Rush, Bill, Shawn and Ann are on the television and/or radio and people still vote for a Palin. When a certain generation dies out and the "old ways" are gone and it's left to these young kids who exhibit a ton more tolerance than those in power right now...then, only then, might I have some hope.
I'm 32 now and I'm talking when/if I make it to 72 and above.
It is strange the folks who espouse freedom of speech only want it for those they agree with. That’s not what the first amendment means. If you support “Free Speech”, you must support it for everyone, even those who you hate. Free Speech for just the “Politically Correct”, no matter their ideology, is no speech at all. This is the same attitude from the Left, as you see from the Right who would censor these games.
A certain responsibility comes with "free speech". If you and others can't comprehend that then "free speech" becomes dangerous. Can it Political correctness, or whatever you like, but there is a responsibility that comes with using words.
As stated by Edward Bulwer-Lytton: The pen is mightier than the sword.
The words of Limbaugh, Coulter, Hannity and O'reilly have drawn an immeasurable amount of blood.
The answer to speech you deplore is more speech not censorship. This is the argument that every demagogue uses to silence his or her opponents. The ACLU defended the right of the Klan to march in Skokie, no matter how despicable the Klan is, they still enjoy the right of free speech guaranteed by the Constitution. If you don’t understand that, you understand nothing about “Freedom”.
If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.
Noam Chomsky
The very aim and end of our institutions is just this: that we may think what we like and say what we think. * Oliver Wendell Holmes
We live in oppressive times. We have, as a nation, become our own thought police; but instead of calling the process by which we limit our expression of dissent and wonder "censorship," we call it "concern for commercial viability." · * David Mamet
I am of course confident that I will fulfill my tasks as a writer in all circumstances--from my grave even more successfully and more irrefutably than in my lifetime. No one can bar the road to truth, and to advance its cause I am prepared to accept even death. But may it be that repeated lessons will finally teach us not to stop the writer's pen during his lifetime? At no time has this ennobled our history. * Alexander Solzhenitsyn
I understand more about freedom than you know. But my time in the Army isn't the topic here. Please, by all means, continue to justify your embrace of hate with quotes that I'll not agree had such hate in mind when stated. There certainly is a line of demarkation between Chomsky's dislike of the Vietnam War and the rhetoric the 4 horsemen I mention above spew.
And as for you harping on the point I want to censor anyone, you first need to comprehend what you read, I never said to do such to anyone. I would appreciate it in kind if you would end the accusations of such. Quite the contrary, I'd prefer those of you who enjoy the hate speech to be quite vocal. It's always good to know which way is downrange.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
First of all to claim deviance you have to accept that there is a norm that is being deviated from. And you just can't do that. People all over the world throughout all times have done different things to get off. The idea that a sexual behavior is deviant is false.
Those things are not morally wrong in every culture. I understand that since you think those things are deviant, you also think that 'right-thinking' people all over the world agree with you, but its just not the case.
Now lets assume for the sake of argument that there is a sexual norm, and the things you listed do indeed deviate from that norm. That still doesn't mean those things are wrong, or morally wrong. Different doesn't mean wrong. Also you can't show any harm, so protesting against gay people IS homophobia.
The permissiveness of the US secular culture does not extend to the rest of the world. These acts ARE morally wrong in almost every culture. In some cultures, it even goes so far as to be punished by the death penalty for those who get caught in such situations. If you disagree, go to Saudi Arabia and practice homosexuality publicly.
Despite your wishing otherwise, morally wrong is morally wrong. Those with moral standards have the right to protest against that which they find immoral. Protesting against public display of sexual deviance is not homophobia, it's an attempt to bring moral values to their community and dissuade those practicing deviant behavior from committing immoral acts. The harm is to both those witnessing the acts and those committing them. If you were to stop someone who was about to cut off their hand, would you be handectomyphobic? No, you'd be expressing concern for that person's well-being.
That's not even remotely true.
Romans, Greeks and all sorts of other cultures throughout history were completely OK with homosexuality. Historically speaking, in Western culture at least, this moral outcry is a relatively (IE: in the hundreds of years) new development.
Sure, there are cultures where you cannot openly be gay, but there are also cultures where you cannot eat certain animals on certain days of the week. Every culture has its quirks.
But to paint that with such a complete brush is absolutely absurd from a historical point of view.
The fact is, modern science should tell people thinking homosexuality is a choice or immoral is ridiculous. Biologically speaking, 10% of ducks are gay. Get over it.
Your entire pro-deviance argument is that humans are incapable of thinking beyond their sexual organs, so we should just have sex with anything that moves, regardless of morality, social consequences, marital consequences, or medical consequences. That's absurd. If that's really how you feel, all I can say is maybe you should grow up and stop thinking with what's in your pants. "If it feels good, do it" will hurt you and anyone close to you. Look how well this attitude is going over for Tiger Woods and his family. Use Tiger's experience as an example that this lifestyle is wrong and change your attitude while you can.
Historically, you are wrong. Roman and Greek culture didn't start out so open. In fact, historians have argued that the excessive lack of morality towards the end of those ancient cultures were what tipped the balance and caused those cultures to fail.
I couldn't care less what a mature rated game contains. Its the parent's responsibility to know what the kiddies are whatching.
This attitude on the part of World News Daily reflects how little veting is done. They get a juicy topic and run with it. Check it out first??? Naaa, this puppy is hot!
Assumptions are made based on pre-concieved notions about what is going on....much like the above quote!!!!!
World News isn't a 'radical right wing publication. It is a liberal...and I use the term loosely :P.
Quote fron World News Daily info on a search:
A daily round-up of the latest international news from msnbc.com and its partners, including NBC News, Newsweek and the Washington Post. With features and analysis by NBC reporters ...
These are hardly right wing pubs. It would seem Khalathwyr has the same problem with judging something based on his/her own blind bias
I have no problem judging any more than you do. Entities that are so frontwardly religious are most time right-wing. Just because they pick up news from those sites doesn't mean they are liberal. They could be picking it up in order to refute it. Admittedly I don't know as I have desire to go to the site. Right, left, fanaticism is bad, to me, no matter the direction.
Oh, and as you don't know me, you can lump yourself into the category you just through me in as you committed the same act.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I couldn't care less what a mature rated game contains. Its the parent's responsibility to know what the kiddies are whatching.
This attitude on the part of World News Daily reflects how little veting is done. They get a juicy topic and run with it. Check it out first??? Naaa, this puppy is hot!
Assumptions are made based on pre-concieved notions about what is going on....much like the above quote!!!!!
World News isn't a 'radical right wing publication. It is a liberal...and I use the term loosely :P.
Quote fron World News Daily info on a search:
A daily round-up of the latest international news from msnbc.com and its partners, including NBC News, Newsweek and the Washington Post. With features and analysis by NBC reporters ...
These are hardly right wing pubs. It would seem Khalathwyr has the same problem with judging something based on his/her own blind bias
This is just another "news story" to keep people from thinking about all the good things that socialism has brought to the world.
Yeah, cause you're an authority on the socialism.
"Duck and cover"
Sorry pops, the 1950s are gone. Socialism, just like the beloved Free Market Capitalism we have, are all viable and all dependent on the power mongers running them. You have a corrupt elite running them, and they all are doomed to fail, which I think history has proven now.
To blame the system shows you know nothing about the system. It's the people implementing them that caused them to fail.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
@battleaxe: You use the word morality and deviant too freely based on what I see as a limited understanding of both. Morality is a social convention of right and wrong, not an absolute understanding of right and wrong. Morality and morally acceptable behavior varies from culture to culture, and within the same cultures as they evolve over time. Using morality to make your argument pretty much invalidates your argument from the outset, as generally accepted morals are by no means comprehensive, or even that enlightened in most cases. Morals tend to exist primarily to help people interact in positive ways for the betterment of all. I don't see how your short-sighted views are in any way, shape or form mirroring the morality you stand behind.
As for deviant behaviors, anything that deviates from a moral standard can be termed "deviant," but again, only in how it relates to the subjective views of right and wrong within a culture. While deviant is a powerful word on the surface, at the core, it's as hollow as morality when you fully understand the meaning of it.
I couldn't care less what a mature rated game contains. Its the parent's responsibility to know what the kiddies are whatching.
This attitude on the part of World News Daily reflects how little veting is done. They get a juicy topic and run with it. Check it out first??? Naaa, this puppy is hot!
Assumptions are made based on pre-concieved notions about what is going on....much like the above quote!!!!!
World News isn't a 'radical right wing publication. It is a liberal...and I use the term loosely :P.
Quote fron World News Daily info on a search:
A daily round-up of the latest international news from msnbc.com and its partners, including NBC News, Newsweek and the Washington Post. With features and analysis by NBC reporters ...
These are hardly right wing pubs. It would seem Khalathwyr has the same problem with judging something based on his/her own blind bias
This is just another "news story" to keep people from thinking about all the good things that socialism has brought to the world.
Yeah, cause you're an authority on the socialism.
"Duck and cover"
Sorry pops, the 1950s are gone. Socialism, just like the beloved Free Market Capitalism we have, are all viable and all dependent on the power mongers running them. You have a corrupt elite running them, and they all are doomed to fail, which I think history has proven now.
To blame the system shows you know nothing about the system. It's the people implementing them that caused them to fail.
yeah im stuck in the past i guess, i see how well socialism has worked and cant wait for Obama's corruption to make it fail here.