A skill based system is much more elegant than classes. A character feels much more unique if its not a exact copy of every other one of his class and level. The good thing about classes is that they make the players to accept weaknesses that their characters have. A Fighter can’t heal, a mage can’t wear plate armour, and so on. If the skill system allows it everyone will end up being a battlemage-healer. A system where everyone can learn everything like darkfall has does not work.
So a skill system needs a quite complicated set of caps and restrictions in that a player must accept a weakness if he chooses a power.
Maybe in concept would skill based system be much more elegant than classes. Perhaps if the world is set up to be more qualitative than quantitative it would work fluidly in an ideal world. However, programming doesn't really allow for too much of that, numbers and values are assigned to everything or else that sort of game might end up turning into a big fiery snowball fight where nothing really matters.
There in lies the problem pointed out in your last statement. Skills systems are complex since its allowing everybody that free reign to pick and choosing their own abilities. Imagine the difficulty games have had just balancing out classes where the territory is a little bit more defined, now they got to to examine each skill and see how it fits into the perspective of ALL other skills that are involved in the game that a character can potentially take. It's really a much more impossible task if classes weren't difficult enough as it is. This is where classes help developers and players alike put everything into perspective for their respective environments.
Not saying skill systems aren't good (trust me I love skill systems), its just not nearly as convenient as having a stereotype to fit certain things/people into it. In this day and age, we have become a society that has been more and more about conveniences to the point where we compromise our own health with things like fast food etc., but we'll save that for another thread
Like classless system would not have any "classes". Pfff... You're just kidding yourself.
There's a difference between predefined templates and ones that can be constructed by the player.
Gives people a sense of freedom.
Yes. The bad skill combinations are the "freedom".
OP skill templates change constantly if you choose to follow them your just a mindless toad.
I see these people in Eve all the time, they rage quite when they finally get nerfed. Free thinking and not following cookiecutters that both sub genres are plagued with is the way to go imo.
Oh yes. Its freedom when a guy can make a armor tanking Raven with LAZOR BEAMZ or a freaking Thanatos with SHIELD TRANSFER ARRAYS. Yeah... I feel free... wooptie doo... jeez...
FYI there are ways to make class-based games flexible. Case and point: Dungeons & Dragons.
Theres a difference between being retarded with a character/ship and thinking outside the box.
DDO is a MMO? could have fooled me. Atleast in a game like Guildwars we have a full blown gameworld to run around in not just town hubs. But yes I guess your right GW is flexible through its dual class system.
Oh yes. Its freedom when a guy can make a armor tanking Raven with LAZOR BEAMZ or a freaking Thanatos with SHIELD TRANSFER ARRAYS. Yeah... I feel free... wooptie doo... jeez... FYI there are ways to make class-based games flexible. Case and point: Dungeons & Dragons.
Theres a difference between being retarded with a character/ship and thinking outside the box.
DDO is a MMO? could have fooled me. Atleast in a game like Guildwars we have a full blown gameworld to run around in not just town hubs. But yes I guess your right GW is flexible through its dual class system.
I did not mean DDO although it is rather flexible. But any game with multi-classing tends to be quite flexible.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
My problem with skill-based games is everyone ends up the same or too similar for my taste. I like having a least a sense of being _somewhat_ unique. I think Wow's talent system is a step in the right direction even though im a huge EQ fan.
That's a fault of the game design. WoW's talent system isn't a step in the right direction either, because it is the epitome of cookie cutter.
UO had "cookie cutter" specs, but there was still a ton of room for customization.
Classes are popular because the people who created this genre played D&D and based their game upon it's foundation. Classes are easier to balance than a list of individual skills which may be combined in ways unforeseen by even the games designers.
I much prefer skill based progression. It gives me a much greater sense of individuality and adds danger to PvP encounters because you truly do not know what you're up against in any given encounter (unless you have a skill that lets you evaluate your opponent!). I enjoy creating my own classes and continuing to make choices throughout the game, rather than a single big choice at character creation which you are thereby stuck with for the duration of your playing experience.
I just wish that class based games took even more inspiration from D&D and added in skills in tandem with classes. There are a TON of skills in D&D and they add so much flavour to each character that it's a shame to see MMOs do nothing but focus on combat game after game.
It had classes and subskills, which made some classes effectively 2 or 3 classes in one, on top of 9 or 10 classes. A shadowpriest played a lot differently than a holy priest, for instance, and had a very different role. In Everquest my paladin was like all other paladins except for gear.
I just like knowing that the necromancer im looking at can't cast Lay on Hands or any other of my special class skills. Maybe skills would work better in a PvP focused game, but I don't care much about PvP personally.
The thing about "in a skill system everyone become the same "class" is an old myth. People are actually interested in different things. They do different things and master (playerskill) different things. And if someone only can think of restrictions for the players as a way to make skillsystem...then we have a lot of education here to do. This is why i cant understand what the classes is all about : )
I don't really know if that is a myth.
I can completely agree that people are interested in different things, but if it is a game where one can level up anything they want and everything works together, then it seems that we are going to be getting a lot of armor wearing, master sword wielding Sorcerer gods.
"some" of whom can pick any lock or pocket in the world.
I personally would be far more open to a skill system within a class structure. So people can create any type of warrior they want but it would still be a warrior. They can wield magic but some are more adept at conjuring, some at fire magic, some at changing the world around them, etc.
Or, if a game must have everything open to everybody then a system where the more one goes into master of a discipline then the less of another discipline they can master.
Make choices really matter.
You want to wield a sword and shoot fireballs? Great. But when the time comes for you to call fire down from the heaven or have the ability to run through a field of enemies and have them all fall to your lightning fast swordplay, only one or the other will be available.
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My problem with skill-based games is everyone ends up the same or too similar for my taste. I like having a least a sense of being _somewhat_ unique. I think Wow's talent system is a step in the right direction even though im a huge EQ fan.
Most modern skill based games are seriously flawed.
My problem with skill-based games is everyone ends up the same or too similar for my taste. I like having a least a sense of being _somewhat_ unique. I think Wow's talent system is a step in the right direction even though im a huge EQ fan.
Most modern skill based games are seriously flawed.
Maybe you're right. If there were certain restrictions I could maybe see it working. I'm pretty open-minded about most things.
What system would you make or point to as being a good skill based system? As indecisive as I am in these games it might appeal to me ;p
I notice in pretty much any post where someone posts an idea for their game, they always have to list classes. But why? It's an inferior outdated system that locks the player into a certain playstyle. I know a few people are going to rush in here and say "Balance!", but imo that's bullshit, what matters most is the player's ability to have fun and play the way they want to play, and I think classes get in the way of that. I wouldn't say entirely skill-based like Darkfall though is an optimal system either, because everyone can do everything and that's no good either. Really I think the best system is a design your own class where you get a certain amount of points to pick various skills from a list, and a limited amount of points to choose your starting dexterity and stuff. So I'm wondering, is there any reason that most of you advocate classes over a "build your own class" system? Have you guys ever tried an alternate system?
Well to be completely honest, it's much more simple to balance x amount of classes. than it is to balance every single skill in the game that everyone can get. Ie it's simpler to balance a warrior, archer, mage, healer than it is to balance a warrior, mage archer-healer-mage etc. etc. If you give people choices it's going to be alot more work to balance it all out. Especially in PvP games that have classes give the designers less work to do in the game. It's so much simpler that's the simple way of doing things. Why do you think in alot of rpgs even, you only have x classes? It just makes it simpler.
Personally, i've always liked the way that bethesda did tes series, you could create your own class but you have favored ones htat then allowed you to do that class and be all happy with it. But in an mmo setting you should have something similar but limit down the level that people can do their secondary skills. This would help you to make the game much more balanced.
Sure we could fake we are unique choosing 2 or 3 classes at once.
Or... XD
Have the skills we choose determine our class.
Once you choose a class you stick to its ways.
But maybe you could choose to specialize in an archery skill and become an archer, later you want to try some sword fighting in case the enemy gets to close so you, but your already an archer so you can;t just become a warrior all of a sudden right?, since you are already an archer and decide to train in melee combat, then you would become a combat archer, more flexible in terms that you can both sword fight and snipe but to a lesser extent than a full fledged archer which is VERY powerful at range but pathetic in melee combat or a warrior which is too powerful to deal in melee combat but can be easily sniped.
Depending on how you chose skills along the way you would slowly change what class you are until you finally mold a character you like.
Not some healer...which can only heal forever more and can't do anything himself, or a ranger which will and forever be back in melee combat, or some warrior which can only absorb endless HP.
I see no flaw in this system, since if one were to become flexible, he wouldn't be nearly as good as a both of the other which specialized fully in their classes using my above combat archer example.
Current class systems in my point of view fail to my system. (Sad story is I am far from making my own MMO anytime soon)
"Balance" isn't really the reason to have classes. Classes are there to create premade interesting playstyles.
In non-class games characters are quite frequently bland hybrids, without strong definition. It goes for the ability spread, and (by extension) the overall playstyle. In a game with (well-made) classes, each class plays considerably different from the others. While this can be done in a classless game too (piloting different roles of ships in EVE) it sometimes isn't (Darkfall,) which results in the aforementioned bland hybrid feel.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
My problem with skill-based games is everyone ends up the same or too similar for my taste. I like having a least a sense of being _somewhat_ unique. I think Wow's talent system is a step in the right direction even though im a huge EQ fan.
Most modern skill based games are seriously flawed.
Maybe you're right. If there were certain restrictions I could maybe see it working. I'm pretty open-minded about most things.
What system would you make or point to as being a good skill based system? As indecisive as I am in these games it might appeal to me ;p
I thought Asheron's Call did it fairly well. You started with 50 skill points to purchase initial skills, you could pay extra skill points to specialize them. As you leveled up in the game you gained more skill points to purchase more skills, although the skill credits you received diminished as you leveled up. 1 per level for 1 - 10, then 2 per level 10 - 30, another at 33, 36, and 39, and then it was one per 5 levels after that.
The other games I've played with make your own class systems allow for too much freedom. In Darkfall everyone is a master of everything. Mortal Online I don't really know what to say, it hasn't been out long enough to judge yet. They do have limitations, so I suppose it might have potential if you didn't need to craft absolutely everything in the game.
Skill based games need restrictions built in to prevent generic "be-all" tank mage specs from ruling the day.
A hard cap, or a soft cap that makes it very time consuming to progress once you hit it (like 1 year of daily play to max a single additional skill) is necessary.
Supplemental skills that provide additional bonuses for primary skills, which shoehorn people into certain roles. Adding in skills like this will make people want to specialize, because being too diverse could make you inferior to someone who chose to make a very specific type of character. Ex. Human anatomy will let fighters deal more damage to players in PvP, or human enemies in PvE. Skills like monster lore provide additional damage to monsters and additional knowledge.
Mages cannot choose to specialize in opposing magic pools. A mage who wants to specialize in fire magic, cannot take any water based spells for instance. Players can choose NOT to specialize, but their spells will be weaker than those who specialize in a pool.
There are ways to balance and make skill based systems work well. Creating a huge list of skills and letting players go wild without any limits is basically asking for your game to be abused. I came up with these ideas in the time it took me to type this post.
Once again though, a class based system combined with skills would be much easier to balance and easier for players to get into. With a class/skill hybrid, it's easier to insure your skill system isn't abused.
All that said, the biggest problem with skill based games is being overwhelmed as a newbie. Starting a brand new game and seeing a list with potentially hundreds of skills and spells combined is enough to overwhelm even a hardened MMO veteran.
Classes shouldn't be defined, neither should they favor hybrid of all types.
they should have it skill based favoring the training of few skills.
Example: There are 7 skills.
Fire
Water
Earth
Wind
Lightning
Sand
Void
You get skill points by gaining xp.
1 skill point to lvl from 1-5
2 skill points to lvl from 6 -10
3 skill points to lvl from 11 - 15 and so on.
Now to learn a new skill point you would have to pay X (= Your current amount of already learned skills) +1, so it would be X +1.
The first few skills you first learn will be fairly cheap, but as you keep getting more and more, these will end up beign alot more expensive than leveling your current skills.
If you learned Fire and Water (2 skills learned) then it would be X+1 (X equals 2), 2 + 1= 3 skill points to learn say Earth, and when you wan to learn wind it would cost 3 + 1 = 4, then for lightning it would be 5, then 6 for sand and 7 for void.
I imagine, in the future, someone will create a system where you can craft/discover your own spells and make your own fighting techniques.
Of course, you'll still have some preset models(and even preset but flexible names, mostly to prevent stuff like SEXYBOLT, LOLFIRE, etc) but the flexibility will be (hopefully) high enough to prevent people doing the same bland cookie-cutter setups.
Depending on how the game mechanics work, this model would be succesful if numbers wouldn't matter that much(and by numbers I mean damage, etc) and offer interesting effects instead.
Yeah, it will still be an illusion,but a far better one than a preset school-based and class-based MMO.
I notice in pretty much any post where someone posts an idea for their game, they always have to list classes. But why? It's an inferior outdated system that locks the player into a certain playstyle. I know a few people are going to rush in here and say "Balance!", but imo that's bullshit, what matters most is the player's ability to have fun and play the way they want to play, and I think classes get in the way of that. I wouldn't say entirely skill-based like Darkfall though is an optimal system either, because everyone can do everything and that's no good either. Really I think the best system is a design your own class where you get a certain amount of points to pick various skills from a list, and a limited amount of points to choose your starting dexterity and stuff. So I'm wondering, is there any reason that most of you advocate classes over a "build your own class" system? Have you guys ever tried an alternate system?
I've been advocating a game with the same type of "class" design. Set of skills that every player chooses from, spending a limited number of points they are allocated.
You could respec when necessary to bring different skills to different activities, but you'd be forced to choose and if you put too much in one area, you'd be limited in some others.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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1. I want plate armor for the best protection 2. I want a two handed weapon for good dps 3. I want mana efficient ranged dps spell casting, or maybe a weapon like a rocket launcher 4. A good self-heal is a must have 5. I want a pet to off-tank for me 6. I want good crowd control skills, like a stun 7. I want a decent close-up AOE for pesky zergs 8. I want some sort of aggro-breaker, so I can feign and have enemies walk off so I don't have to die.
Classes are obsolete because I can't do all this in a system that has classes.
1. I want plate armor for the best protection 2. I want a two handed weapon for good dps 3. I want mana efficient ranged dps spell casting, or maybe a weapon like a rocket launcher 4. A good self-heal is a must have 5. I want a pet to off-tank for me 6. I want good crowd control skills, like a stun 7. I want a decent close-up AOE for pesky zergs 8. I want some sort of aggro-breaker, so I can feign and have enemies walk off so I don't have to die.
Classes are obsolete because I can't do all this in a system that has classes.
Ken
What if you implement some kind of limits.
Example: You can't use holy magic if you are a dark magic practitioner because <insert funny lore reason here>.
And to compensate, make Dark Magic a huge school with branches such as Necromancy, Blood Magic, etc.
You won't have a retarded good-for-all class, but you'll still have some choices.
I imagine, in the future, someone will create a system where you can craft/discover your own spells and make your own fighting techniques.
Of course, you'll still have some preset models(and even preset but flexible names, mostly to prevent stuff like SEXYBOLT, LOLFIRE, etc) but the flexibility will be (hopefully) high enough to prevent people doing the same bland cookie-cutter setups.
Depending on how the game mechanics work, this model would be succesful if numbers wouldn't matter that much(and by numbers I mean damage, etc) and offer interesting effects instead.
Yeah, it will still be an illusion,but a far better one than a preset school-based and class-based MMO.
Cookier cutter builds are here to stay. As long as there's the internet and if a game becomes popular they'll exist. HUGE guides on how to get the best builds and explore this to have this build. There'll be the best build for all of the holy trinity. There'll be a "cookier cutter" melee dps, magic dps, melee tank, and healer builds all done and ready for everyone. No matter how hard you try, cookie cutter builds will come up and they will become prevelant and as a designer the only thing they can do is to try to do is to make sure that they make the differences in differnet "builds" as little as possible.
Comments
There's a difference between predefined templates and ones that can be constructed by the player.
Gives people a sense of freedom.
...the illusion of freedom...
I would take the Illusion of freedom anyday over what themeparks offer in class flexibility.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
There's a difference between predefined templates and ones that can be constructed by the player.
Gives people a sense of freedom.
...the illusion of freedom...
This is true. Its only an illusion.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
There's a difference between predefined templates and ones that can be constructed by the player.
Gives people a sense of freedom.
...the illusion of freedom...
I would take the Illusion of freedom anyday over what themeparks offer in class flexibility.
When I see past the illusion its no different than any other game.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Maybe in concept would skill based system be much more elegant than classes. Perhaps if the world is set up to be more qualitative than quantitative it would work fluidly in an ideal world. However, programming doesn't really allow for too much of that, numbers and values are assigned to everything or else that sort of game might end up turning into a big fiery snowball fight where nothing really matters.
There in lies the problem pointed out in your last statement. Skills systems are complex since its allowing everybody that free reign to pick and choosing their own abilities. Imagine the difficulty games have had just balancing out classes where the territory is a little bit more defined, now they got to to examine each skill and see how it fits into the perspective of ALL other skills that are involved in the game that a character can potentially take. It's really a much more impossible task if classes weren't difficult enough as it is. This is where classes help developers and players alike put everything into perspective for their respective environments.
Not saying skill systems aren't good (trust me I love skill systems), its just not nearly as convenient as having a stereotype to fit certain things/people into it. In this day and age, we have become a society that has been more and more about conveniences to the point where we compromise our own health with things like fast food etc., but we'll save that for another thread
There's a difference between predefined templates and ones that can be constructed by the player.
Gives people a sense of freedom.
Yes. The bad skill combinations are the "freedom".
OP skill templates change constantly if you choose to follow them your just a mindless toad.
I see these people in Eve all the time, they rage quite when they finally get nerfed. Free thinking and not following cookiecutters that both sub genres are plagued with is the way to go imo.
Oh yes. Its freedom when a guy can make a armor tanking Raven with LAZOR BEAMZ or a freaking Thanatos with SHIELD TRANSFER ARRAYS. Yeah... I feel free... wooptie doo... jeez...
FYI there are ways to make class-based games flexible. Case and point: Dungeons & Dragons.
Theres a difference between being retarded with a character/ship and thinking outside the box.
DDO is a MMO? could have fooled me. Atleast in a game like Guildwars we have a full blown gameworld to run around in not just town hubs. But yes I guess your right GW is flexible through its dual class system.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Theres a difference between being retarded with a character/ship and thinking outside the box.
DDO is a MMO? could have fooled me. Atleast in a game like Guildwars we have a full blown gameworld to run around in not just town hubs. But yes I guess your right GW is flexible through its dual class system.
I did not mean DDO although it is rather flexible. But any game with multi-classing tends to be quite flexible.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
The thing about "in a skill system everyone become the same "class" is an old myth.
People are actually interested in different things. They do different things and master (playerskill) different things.
And if someone only can think of restrictions for the players as a way to make skillsystem...then we have a lot of education here to do.
This is why i cant understand what the classes is all about : )
That's a fault of the game design. WoW's talent system isn't a step in the right direction either, because it is the epitome of cookie cutter.
UO had "cookie cutter" specs, but there was still a ton of room for customization.
Classes are popular because the people who created this genre played D&D and based their game upon it's foundation. Classes are easier to balance than a list of individual skills which may be combined in ways unforeseen by even the games designers.
I much prefer skill based progression. It gives me a much greater sense of individuality and adds danger to PvP encounters because you truly do not know what you're up against in any given encounter (unless you have a skill that lets you evaluate your opponent!). I enjoy creating my own classes and continuing to make choices throughout the game, rather than a single big choice at character creation which you are thereby stuck with for the duration of your playing experience.
I just wish that class based games took even more inspiration from D&D and added in skills in tandem with classes. There are a TON of skills in D&D and they add so much flavour to each character that it's a shame to see MMOs do nothing but focus on combat game after game.
It had classes and subskills, which made some classes effectively 2 or 3 classes in one, on top of 9 or 10 classes. A shadowpriest played a lot differently than a holy priest, for instance, and had a very different role. In Everquest my paladin was like all other paladins except for gear.
I just like knowing that the necromancer im looking at can't cast Lay on Hands or any other of my special class skills. Maybe skills would work better in a PvP focused game, but I don't care much about PvP personally.
I don't really know if that is a myth.
I can completely agree that people are interested in different things, but if it is a game where one can level up anything they want and everything works together, then it seems that we are going to be getting a lot of armor wearing, master sword wielding Sorcerer gods.
"some" of whom can pick any lock or pocket in the world.
I personally would be far more open to a skill system within a class structure. So people can create any type of warrior they want but it would still be a warrior. They can wield magic but some are more adept at conjuring, some at fire magic, some at changing the world around them, etc.
Or, if a game must have everything open to everybody then a system where the more one goes into master of a discipline then the less of another discipline they can master.
Make choices really matter.
You want to wield a sword and shoot fireballs? Great. But when the time comes for you to call fire down from the heaven or have the ability to run through a field of enemies and have them all fall to your lightning fast swordplay, only one or the other will be available.
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Random thought,
Does setting affect which system would be better?
Fantasy for example seems silly to let players feely mix and match magic schools with mundane, as magic is highly thematic.
Sci-fi on the other hand being all guns and tech could do with less restrictions, as it makes more sense.
Superhero settings would want to force players to stick with a certain power set or theme.
Something like Eve you don't need any restrictions since it is all ship related anyway.
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Most modern skill based games are seriously flawed.
Most modern skill based games are seriously flawed.
Maybe you're right. If there were certain restrictions I could maybe see it working. I'm pretty open-minded about most things.
What system would you make or point to as being a good skill based system? As indecisive as I am in these games it might appeal to me ;p
Well to be completely honest, it's much more simple to balance x amount of classes. than it is to balance every single skill in the game that everyone can get. Ie it's simpler to balance a warrior, archer, mage, healer than it is to balance a warrior, mage archer-healer-mage etc. etc. If you give people choices it's going to be alot more work to balance it all out. Especially in PvP games that have classes give the designers less work to do in the game. It's so much simpler that's the simple way of doing things. Why do you think in alot of rpgs even, you only have x classes? It just makes it simpler.
Personally, i've always liked the way that bethesda did tes series, you could create your own class but you have favored ones htat then allowed you to do that class and be all happy with it. But in an mmo setting you should have something similar but limit down the level that people can do their secondary skills. This would help you to make the game much more balanced.
Sure we could fake we are unique choosing 2 or 3 classes at once.
Or... XD
Have the skills we choose determine our class.
Once you choose a class you stick to its ways.
But maybe you could choose to specialize in an archery skill and become an archer, later you want to try some sword fighting in case the enemy gets to close so you, but your already an archer so you can;t just become a warrior all of a sudden right?, since you are already an archer and decide to train in melee combat, then you would become a combat archer, more flexible in terms that you can both sword fight and snipe but to a lesser extent than a full fledged archer which is VERY powerful at range but pathetic in melee combat or a warrior which is too powerful to deal in melee combat but can be easily sniped.
Depending on how you chose skills along the way you would slowly change what class you are until you finally mold a character you like.
Not some healer...which can only heal forever more and can't do anything himself, or a ranger which will and forever be back in melee combat, or some warrior which can only absorb endless HP.
I see no flaw in this system, since if one were to become flexible, he wouldn't be nearly as good as a both of the other which specialized fully in their classes using my above combat archer example.
Current class systems in my point of view fail to my system. (Sad story is I am far from making my own MMO anytime soon)
"Balance" isn't really the reason to have classes. Classes are there to create premade interesting playstyles.
In non-class games characters are quite frequently bland hybrids, without strong definition. It goes for the ability spread, and (by extension) the overall playstyle. In a game with (well-made) classes, each class plays considerably different from the others. While this can be done in a classless game too (piloting different roles of ships in EVE) it sometimes isn't (Darkfall,) which results in the aforementioned bland hybrid feel.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Most modern skill based games are seriously flawed.
Maybe you're right. If there were certain restrictions I could maybe see it working. I'm pretty open-minded about most things.
What system would you make or point to as being a good skill based system? As indecisive as I am in these games it might appeal to me ;p
I thought Asheron's Call did it fairly well. You started with 50 skill points to purchase initial skills, you could pay extra skill points to specialize them. As you leveled up in the game you gained more skill points to purchase more skills, although the skill credits you received diminished as you leveled up. 1 per level for 1 - 10, then 2 per level 10 - 30, another at 33, 36, and 39, and then it was one per 5 levels after that.
The other games I've played with make your own class systems allow for too much freedom. In Darkfall everyone is a master of everything. Mortal Online I don't really know what to say, it hasn't been out long enough to judge yet. They do have limitations, so I suppose it might have potential if you didn't need to craft absolutely everything in the game.
Skill based games need restrictions built in to prevent generic "be-all" tank mage specs from ruling the day.
A hard cap, or a soft cap that makes it very time consuming to progress once you hit it (like 1 year of daily play to max a single additional skill) is necessary.
Supplemental skills that provide additional bonuses for primary skills, which shoehorn people into certain roles. Adding in skills like this will make people want to specialize, because being too diverse could make you inferior to someone who chose to make a very specific type of character. Ex. Human anatomy will let fighters deal more damage to players in PvP, or human enemies in PvE. Skills like monster lore provide additional damage to monsters and additional knowledge.
Mages cannot choose to specialize in opposing magic pools. A mage who wants to specialize in fire magic, cannot take any water based spells for instance. Players can choose NOT to specialize, but their spells will be weaker than those who specialize in a pool.
There are ways to balance and make skill based systems work well. Creating a huge list of skills and letting players go wild without any limits is basically asking for your game to be abused. I came up with these ideas in the time it took me to type this post.
Once again though, a class based system combined with skills would be much easier to balance and easier for players to get into. With a class/skill hybrid, it's easier to insure your skill system isn't abused.
All that said, the biggest problem with skill based games is being overwhelmed as a newbie. Starting a brand new game and seeing a list with potentially hundreds of skills and spells combined is enough to overwhelm even a hardened MMO veteran.
Classes shouldn't be defined, neither should they favor hybrid of all types.
they should have it skill based favoring the training of few skills.
Example: There are 7 skills.
Fire
Water
Earth
Wind
Lightning
Sand
Void
You get skill points by gaining xp.
1 skill point to lvl from 1-5
2 skill points to lvl from 6 -10
3 skill points to lvl from 11 - 15 and so on.
Now to learn a new skill point you would have to pay X (= Your current amount of already learned skills) +1, so it would be X +1.
The first few skills you first learn will be fairly cheap, but as you keep getting more and more, these will end up beign alot more expensive than leveling your current skills.
If you learned Fire and Water (2 skills learned) then it would be X+1 (X equals 2), 2 + 1= 3 skill points to learn say Earth, and when you wan to learn wind it would cost 3 + 1 = 4, then for lightning it would be 5, then 6 for sand and 7 for void.
This would favor hybrid but not to that extent.
I imagine, in the future, someone will create a system where you can craft/discover your own spells and make your own fighting techniques.
Of course, you'll still have some preset models(and even preset but flexible names, mostly to prevent stuff like SEXYBOLT, LOLFIRE, etc) but the flexibility will be (hopefully) high enough to prevent people doing the same bland cookie-cutter setups.
Depending on how the game mechanics work, this model would be succesful if numbers wouldn't matter that much(and by numbers I mean damage, etc) and offer interesting effects instead.
Yeah, it will still be an illusion,but a far better one than a preset school-based and class-based MMO.
Okay, so lets see:
1. I want plate armor for the best protection
2. I want a two handed weapon for good dps
3. I want mana efficient ranged dps spell casting, or maybe a weapon like a rocket launcher
4. A good self-heal is a must have
5. I want a pet to off-tank for me
6. I want good crowd control skills, like a stun
7. I want a decent close-up AOE for pesky zergs
8. I want some sort of aggro-breaker, so I can feign and have enemies walk off so I don't have to die.
Classes are obsolete because I can't do all this in a system that has classes.
Ken
edit: funny, but doesn't that look a lot like a DK?
www.ActionMMORPG.com
One man, a small pile of money, and the screwball idea of a DIY Indie MMORPG? Yep, that's him. ~sigh~
I've been advocating a game with the same type of "class" design. Set of skills that every player chooses from, spending a limited number of points they are allocated.
You could respec when necessary to bring different skills to different activities, but you'd be forced to choose and if you put too much in one area, you'd be limited in some others.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I SERIOUSLY hope this post is sarcasm.
It is very much so.
Ken
www.ActionMMORPG.com
One man, a small pile of money, and the screwball idea of a DIY Indie MMORPG? Yep, that's him. ~sigh~
What if you implement some kind of limits.
Example: You can't use holy magic if you are a dark magic practitioner because <insert funny lore reason here>.
And to compensate, make Dark Magic a huge school with branches such as Necromancy, Blood Magic, etc.
You won't have a retarded good-for-all class, but you'll still have some choices.
Cookier cutter builds are here to stay. As long as there's the internet and if a game becomes popular they'll exist. HUGE guides on how to get the best builds and explore this to have this build. There'll be the best build for all of the holy trinity. There'll be a "cookier cutter" melee dps, magic dps, melee tank, and healer builds all done and ready for everyone. No matter how hard you try, cookie cutter builds will come up and they will become prevelant and as a designer the only thing they can do is to try to do is to make sure that they make the differences in differnet "builds" as little as possible.