what kind of restrictions are you imagining?, I think you are way behind my page here. Assuming that I am behind your 'page' doesn't sound like a place I would like to be. I think its much more appropriate to assume that we are simply on 'different' pages if we are to have a meaningful conversation. Otherwise, there is no point in continuing.
The more different skills you get, the less effective they are and the less likely you will be able to fill the role of such skill. Over a long enough timeline you would most certainly be able to fill each role. Its no different than a class based game where an undeveloped character isn't able to fill their own class's role. For example, your priest can't heal a main tank on a dragon raid when you are in the newbie zone fighting rats with a rusty dagger. We can only assume a fully developed character.
Skill based system allow you to build your specific class over time, be it specialized, dual or you went for too many and now your character can;t do anything right do to him spreading his abilities too far. How is that any different than spreading your points thinly across each talent tree in WoW? WoW is practically the definition of a class based game, but still has these same qualities of min-maxing and role specialization.
Since you asked about what kind of restrictions, I think you're already assuming one of them. The restriction of a maximum number of skill points. It forces a kind of specialization, bringing the skill based system one step closer to a class based system. You can also have restrictions such as the powersets and tiers in Champions. All classes do is enforce them a bit more rigidly.
How can the class based D&D online be so much more diverse and deep than any skill based system currently available? The classes aren't restricting players from being utterly creative in their designs. Its deep and interesting because there are meaningful choices and trade offs that are not present in an open skill based system like that found in Darkfall.
I like Hellgate's class/skill/attribute distribution system. Not only did you have a choice if classes, but within it, a choices of skills-trees to select from, and also, the player's choice how to distribute attribute points for STR/INT/DEX etc... Not one 2 toons were alike even if in the same classes. Because depending on skill tree's you could only pick out certain skills per level, and are limitited to specific sub-build if you will. The attribute points, ... some ppl would put them all in into stamina and swear that HP points was the way to go, but for me I'd save my attribute points just in case I found a Legendary or Unique armor peice that would require a str or stam or int feed.
Yup no 2 characters were ever alike because even the variety of armor you'd find, you could build around your armor peices for specific build for speed, evasion or even increase the armor/damage dealing/hp of your minions.
Diablo2 and Torchlight is about the closest thing to Hellgate, but if only it played 1st/3rd person like Hellgate, then I would like it more (not that I don't mind top/down Isometric view rpgs... I do, just perfer them to be 1st/3rd person view).
what matters most is the player's ability to have fun and play the way they want to play, and I think classes get in the way of that. I wouldn't say entirely skill-based like Darkfall though is an optimal system either, because everyone can do everything and that's no good either. Really I think the best system is a design your own class where you get a certain amount of points to pick various skills from a list, and a limited amount of points to choose your starting dexterity and stuff. "build your own class"
* ORIGINAL POST EDITED down to just the things i wanted to comment on.
let me comment on the last sentence first, since this is the main point i replied to this thread.....
try Rubies Of Eventide. or at least read about its class system
it seems to me like you are class obsessed cuz you don't think its good to be classless. maybe you just worded the title of your thread haphazardly, and that's really not your point (whether people are class obsessed or not).
i agree with that first statement that players should be able to play the way they want, and that classes get in the way of that. which is why i like that aspect of Darkfall. but it seems like you go on to contradict yourself, by saying its not good that everybody can do everything. if your primary goal is realism (then making games that are supposed to be FUN was the wrong career path for you), then sure, it makes sense to limit players. cuz nobody can be a football star, rock star, professor, painter, teacher, house wife, brain surgeon, rocket scientist all in one lifetime. blah blah blah. for a FUN based game however.....
now FORCING people to do everything is a whole different ballgame. thats an extreme mistake, and unfortunately Darkfall undoes itself by committing that criime. THAT IS NOT INHERRENT IN CLASSLESS SYSTEMS THO. its just a specific, incredibly stupid thing the Darkfall devs have done. i've never done gathering/crafting in games before because i hate it, and yet....unless i wanna have an inferior character..... i'm FORCED to tradeskill in Darkfall. and not just ONE craft but pretty much ALL of them. therefore a good majority of my time in DF is pure progress bar grind to support the small percentage of the time i can participate in the very fun combat. because all the crafts raise various stats. that's the #1 worse thing about the game to me, and the main reason i only subscribed one month. people who only wanted to play melee would hate Darkfall cuz they are forced to do archery or spellcasting part of the time in order to be competitive.
DF does do many things right, and is very unique therefore i've subscribed another month recently, but its back to the love/hate fun/but-grindy-as-hell-grind. grrrrr! please somebody make a game with all its strengths and no grind! definitely can't take more than a month at a time (and not even play the whole month this time probably).
I'm subscribed to Darkfall too, but I bought that 6 months thing and I'm lamenting the grind. It was so much more fun at launch when anyone could jump in and get a kill if they were skillful enough. The game is pretty much entirely flawed, on a new character you're required to grind for months before you can even participate in PvP without dying immediately.
Classes shouldn't be viewed as a confinement, just a way to help players make choices. Any good skill based system would have severe limitations on what combinations were allowed anyway, and then you're back to classes with variations. MMO's don't need MORE self sufficient players, they need less. A lot less. This whole "let everyone be able to do everything as long as they got stupendous amounts of time to put in it" philosophy has backfired in a big way. Enter pointless solo play MMOs.
I agree they should have limitations. But I see, like the individual above who wants to be a warrior-mage-thief, playres who want to be everything.
I realize that this is just my personal prejudice but I can't abide a system that allows for someone to be all of those things and to excel at all of those things, simply because it flies in the face of story. It becomes less about being a character in a world and more about being a character in a game.
Now I'm not calling for real world simulators, but having a master thief assassin/master warrior or blademaster and sorceror who can call down demi gods seems to just trivialize any of those things. In effect they become nothing BUT stats and stats that players can all spend time working on to their heart's content.
Some might say "well that's how I want to play" and they are welcome to it but for my taste I would immediately steer clear of a game like that as it just cheapens the whole thing for me.
The only way I would play a skill based game is if the skills integrated in a way that makes sense and if there were hard choices that players had to make.
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Originally posted by wisesquirrel To whoever said class system and skill based are the same What if I want to be a Mage + Thieft + Warrior? You can;t do that in a class system, but you can in a skill based system.
Hehe, I find this quite funny. You most certainly can!
what matters most is the player's ability to have fun and play the way they want to play, and I think classes get in the way of that. I wouldn't say entirely skill-based like Darkfall though is an optimal system either, because everyone can do everything and that's no good either. Really I think the best system is a design your own class where you get a certain amount of points to pick various skills from a list, and a limited amount of points to choose your starting dexterity and stuff. "build your own class"
* ORIGINAL POST EDITED down to just the things i wanted to comment on.
let me comment on the last sentence first, since this is the main point i replied to this thread.....
try Rubies Of Eventide. or at least read about its class system
it seems to me like you are class obsessed cuz you don't think its good to be classless. maybe you just worded the title of your thread haphazardly, and that's really not your point (whether people are class obsessed or not).
i agree with that first statement that players should be able to play the way they want, and that classes get in the way of that. which is why i like that aspect of Darkfall. but it seems like you go on to contradict yourself, by saying its not good that everybody can do everything. if your primary goal is realism (then making games that are supposed to be FUN was the wrong career path for you), then sure, it makes sense to limit players. cuz nobody can be a football star, rock star, professor, painter, teacher, house wife, brain surgeon, rocket scientist all in one lifetime. blah blah blah. for a FUN based game however.....
now FORCING people to do everything is a whole different ballgame. thats an extreme mistake, and unfortunately Darkfall undoes itself by committing that criime. THAT IS NOT INHERRENT IN CLASSLESS SYSTEMS THO. its just a specific, incredibly stupid thing the Darkfall devs have done. i've never done gathering/crafting in games before because i hate it, and yet....unless i wanna have an inferior character..... i'm FORCED to tradeskill in Darkfall. and not just ONE craft but pretty much ALL of them. therefore a good majority of my time in DF is pure progress bar grind to support the small percentage of the time i can participate in the very fun combat. because all the crafts raise various stats. that's the #1 worse thing about the game to me, and the main reason i only subscribed one month. people who only wanted to play melee would hate Darkfall cuz they are forced to do archery or spellcasting part of the time in order to be competitive.
DF does do many things right, and is very unique therefore i've subscribed another month recently, but its back to the love/hate fun/but-grindy-as-hell-grind. grrrrr! please somebody make a game with all its strengths and no grind! definitely can't take more than a month at a time (and not even play the whole month this time probably).
I'm subscribed to Darkfall too, but I bought that 6 months thing and I'm lamenting the grind. It was so much more fun at launch when anyone could jump in and get a kill if they were skillful enough. The game is pretty much entirely flawed, on a new character you're required to grind for months before you can even participate in PvP without dying immediately.
Edit: Damn you for causing me to derail.
In this, we can completely agree
Please say that over here and here, because they dont believe us:
UO is entirely a class based game, which allows for multi-classing. There are 5 classes, and you're allowed 1 1/2 to 2 of them.
DF is entirely a 1 class based game, which EVERYONE is ALL 3 classes. DDO allows for up to THREE classes.
WoW, EQ2, and other MMORPGS have multiple classes, and allow for specialization in those classes, providing a lot of diversity and often switching or multi-classing roles all together. What other skill based game is there, where there are not classes, and everyone isn't allowed to be everything?
I agree, but you're using 'classes' and 'roles' for the same thing. They aren't necessarily the same thing. Its just a matter of semantics though.
A WoW Paladin for example can be a tank, dps, or healer. That is quite a bit of flexibility for a class based game. Skill based games start to get boring and generic when a single character is able to fill every role. That is probably its greatest shortcoming. To address this, they add restrictions. Then you start on the slippery slope between pure skill based (like Darkfall) and pure class based (like Aion). A completely restricted skill based system IS class based. You can loosen it up some and add some flexibility, but once you get to the point of unlimited flexibility you're back to a skill based system. Its not really a black and white issue as many people are trying to make it into.
Thanks, and I agree it's not black/white like everyone thinks, it's entirely grey!
But even outside of semantics... in essence... isn't it all just the exact same thing?
Skill based? Pft.
Class based? Pft.
Those are just words for Role Based, and the multi-class/skill ability to take on multiple roles.
I think if we want to change MMORPG's, the answer is definitely NOT to make it a skill based game, nor a class based game, and although I agree a fine balance would be best, I think that's not the answer people like the OP are looking for.
Skill = Class = Role = Level = Loop
If people are tired of classes, then they're tired of skills, they're tired of levels, they're tired of roles. The answer is to get rid of the trinity of roles and reform game mechanics entirely.
UO is entirely a class based game, which allows for multi-classing. There are 5 classes, and you're allowed 1 1/2 to 2 of them.
DF is entirely a 1 class based game, which EVERYONE is ALL 3 classes. DDO allows for up to THREE classes.
WoW, EQ2, and other MMORPGS have multiple classes, and allow for specialization in those classes, providing a lot of diversity and often switching or multi-classing roles all together. What other skill based game is there, where there are not classes, and everyone isn't allowed to be everything?
I agree, but you're using 'classes' and 'roles' for the same thing. They aren't necessarily the same thing. Its just a matter of semantics though.
A WoW Paladin for example can be a tank, dps, or healer. That is quite a bit of flexibility for a class based game. Skill based games start to get boring and generic when a single character is able to fill every role. That is probably its greatest shortcoming. To address this, they add restrictions. Then you start on the slippery slope between pure skill based (like Darkfall) and pure class based (like Aion). A completely restricted skill based system IS class based. You can loosen it up some and add some flexibility, but once you get to the point of unlimited flexibility you're back to a skill based system. Its not really a black and white issue as many people are trying to make it into.
Thanks, and I agree it's not black/white like everyone thinks, it's entirely grey!
But even outside of semantics... in essence... isn't it all just the exact same thing?
Skill based? Pft.
Class based? Pft.
Those are just words for Role Based, and the multi-class/skill ability to take on multiple roles.
I think if we want to change MMORPG's, the answer is definitely NOT to make it a skill based game, nor a class based game, and although I agree a fine balance would be best, I think that's not the answer people like the OP are looking for.
Skill = Class = Role = Level = Loop
If people are tired of classes, then they're tired of skills, they're tired of levels, they're tired of roles. The answer is to get rid of the trinity of roles and reform game mechanics entirely.
I still don't see how they are essentially the same thing. In a class-based game you are limited to the options presented by the game designers by the class you can choose which ultimately defines every other part of your character for you. In a skill-based game you are limited to the options presented within the skill set, created by the designers, but not in the role you fill.
In UO, my first character could mine, craft equipment, tame weak creatures, cook food, and fight...a little. I didn't adhere to any traditional roles and I definitely didn't follow the Trinity. That was the only time I felt like I was playing a RPG. I spread my skills out thinly and didn't even care that I could never fight the hardest monsters in the game (I had no way to heal and I was pretty weak to begin with), but I was still able to progress my character the way I wanted to and all of those skills were important decisions (in WoW for example, anyone can pick up a trade profession without sacrificing their characters ability in combat). I haven't seen anything like that since then.
I think having defined roles that people are sort of guided to but not forced to take up would work out for everyone. That would be a skill-based system that emphasizes roles to guide players but still allows the "Sandbox" freedom that others desire.
_________________________________ "Fixed it. Because that wall of text attacked me, killed me and looted my body..." -George "sniperg" Light
And you know that by? Classes are more popular/wanted then classless games (check how sandbox games and fantasy mmorpgs are in popularity) Well, the majority(read all) sandbox games are designed by indie companies and arent on the same quality level that the multi million dollar productions that companies behind fantasy MMORPG's make.
And that makes them not in the Minority how?
I believe he was pointing out that you can't really say that sandbox games vs. themepark fantasy mmorpgs' popularities are is a good indication of class-based or not, specifically, because not only are most sandbox games extremely newb-unfriendly, but involve the player a lot, not into the game as such, but into the community, which is the real kicker for sandbox games anyway.
He is also saying that they are produced by indie companies, you know, those people like you and me who have ideas, but not necessarily the skills to make a game. Perhaps we have a nice little savings account of like, $5 million, and we got a group of forty or so people to make the game for a few years, as opposed to the corporate giants in the MMO sector, like NCSoft, Funcom, Blizzard, Cryptic, these places have huge financial support, either by investors or through previous game sales.
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Anyway, my 2 cents on the idea of skill-based systems is that they should include something similar to the Certificate system a la EVE Online. I'll just check a few of my certificates and tell you what they entail... grr, downloading a patch, the bad thing about free expansions...
Field Technician - Basic
-Salvaging Level I
-Mechanic Level III
-Survey Level III
-Electronics Level I
Resource Harvester - Basic
-Mining Level IV
Refinery Foreman - Basic
-Refining Level III
-Industry Level I
So, with those certificates, you can sort of get an idea of what I've been doing... getting mining skills up (I want my Retriever, damnit!) and also learning salvaging, through the beginner tutorials... I've also been trying to get my refining up to a bit better efficiency.
With a more obvious certificate-esque system in a fantasy-based game, you could even get titles, or bonuses granted with certain certificates. If you see a person walking around with the "Shaman" tag in their name, it could mean they've learned a bunch of given skills that work well with a stereotypical, but perhaps well planned and defined character or role.
Certain certificate-esque titles could be given exclusive access to further skills or traits. Say, for example, I've learned the following for the "Beserker" title:
Beserker
-Melee Level IV
-Off-hand Melee Level III
-Dual Wielding Level I
-Bloodlust Level I
-Pain Threshold Level III
An additional ability that is only available for those using the Beserker title could be, say, Frenzied Striking - which decreases chance to parry or block by 1%, and increases the chance to critically hit by 2%, passively, with an increase of each by the same up to level five.
In this way, a Beserker is gimping their ability to tank by choosing to increase this ability, but the increase to critical chance is pretty nice.
The way I see it, players should learn how to counter these melee-dps monsters instead of crying about them and getting everything available to every class (Blizzard has swayed to the demands of the masses, and we've seen how that's turned out). If you were to fight a beserker, you should know that you can likely kill them fairly easily, as long as you don't let them take out everything by ignoring them to focus on various tank-types.
I mean, the list goes on for how you could help create specialised roles that disallow making fully-capable hybrids.
Say there was an ability, "Spiritual Attunement" - increases holy damage and healing by 2% (up to 10%), decreases other magical damage by 1%(up to 5%) and chance to critically hit with spells by 1% (up to 5%)
If someone were to get Spiritual Attunement, they would be gimping out their mage/shaman/elemental/arcane affinities to increase their holy and healing ability, to become some sort of monk/paladin/priestly character. The lore would generally make sense, depending on the game IP universe, as most forms of "magic" are "manipulation" and "conjuring", forcing various elements and energies into your bidding with your mind and nature attunement, where as a holy ability should come through devotion and faith to some path, rather than learned magics.
Anyway, it's not to say someone couldn't be a hybrid, but doing so would make it so you could never be as good as a pure-breed in any one gameplay style.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
Originally posted by wisesquirrel To whoever said class system and skill based are the same What if I want to be a Mage + Thieft + Warrior? You can;t do that in a class system, but you can in a skill based system.
I would agree that people should be able to be able to play as a mage + theif + warrior, but no mageifior should be better at being a mage than someone who just plays a mage, or better as a theif than someone who just plays a theif, or better than a warrior than someone who just plays a warrior.
I believe that adding skills that give positive attributes as well as negative attributes would help to cap out this sort of ridiculous "I'm the buffest mofo you ever seen, 'cause I train EVERY SKILL TO MAXIMUM."
I mean, if someone has every skill to maximum in a game with +'s and -'s to skills, they're going to have a character, let's say they go for melee specialisation.
Melee +10, Ranged -5, Magic -5
And then they add in some ranged specialisation!
Ranged +10, Melee -5, Magic -5
And then they add in some magic specialisation!
Magic +10, Melee -5, Ranged -5
I mean, that is the ultimate redundancy of skill training I have ever seen. Granted, getting both melee and ranged, or melee and magic, or magic and ranged, would end up with a +5 to both and -10 to one, but it disallows the ability of just getting everything and being more buff than everyone else.
A Ranger, who plans to use ranged attacks more than anything, should get Ranged specialisation, and stick to it. Perhaps you could have an unlearning ability in the game that still takes a little while, but only like a 10th of the time to untrain than it did to train. I work at McDonald's (University study life is hell), and every time they change something on a burger, it makes the next week or two annoying, until the new procedure cements itself properly.
Anyway, just an additional two cents for game design thought pools.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
I notice in pretty much any post where someone posts an idea for their game, they always have to list classes. But why? It's an inferior outdated system that locks the player into a certain playstyle. I know a few people are going to rush in here and say "Balance!", but imo that's bullshit, what matters most is the player's ability to have fun and play the way they want to play, and I think classes get in the way of that. I wouldn't say entirely skill-based like Darkfall though is an optimal system either, because everyone can do everything and that's no good either. Really I think the best system is a design your own class where you get a certain amount of points to pick various skills from a list, and a limited amount of points to choose your starting dexterity and stuff. So I'm wondering, is there any reason that most of you advocate classes over a "build your own class" system? Have you guys ever tried an alternate system?
Most people would rather just pick a class, level it, have no say in the spells/abilities you gain as you level and even less at level cap through limited class trees.
I would rather think up my own class that's tailored to my play style than roll a class just to find out that it really isnt me and have to start over.
I like the flexibility in skill systems.
In general I would say I am in agreence with metalhead980 on this. I'm an old school PnP D&D player. Half the fun of D&D for me was "developing" my character as I went. Bathesda did a great job with Elder Scrolls and Oblivion of providing cookie cutter classes and also allowng players to make thier own classes. Not a bad way to go in my opinion.
Personally I'd prefer to see a fully classless system. However, this is far harder to implement for the developers. You have to take way more things into account as opposed to pre-build classes.
Honestly, classes with defined roles, with flexibility of course, helps me focus. Otherwise id be doing a different thing every day and never get anything done.
Originally posted by wisesquirrel What if I want to be a Mage + Thieft + Warrior?
People seem to be harping on this one point as if it's a bad thing. The best heroes are well-rounded heroes that can stand on their own. The class-based archetype is something stressed too much in D&D and it's many novels.
Now, the implementation of a skill-based system can be very important. Keep in mind that equipment is everything. As a warrior is hindered without his sword, so should a mage be hindered without his staff. A mage trying to cast a spell with a sword in his hand won't be getting the full effect, just like a warrior trying to club someone with a staff. Thieves can't quite sneak around in full platemail. Well, not easily. Then there's comparing the skills you get for free at character creation versus no skill at all and trying to train up a new profession from scratch.
People seem to be harping on this one point as if it's a bad thing. The best heroes are well-rounded heroes that can stand on their own. The class-based archetype is something stressed too much in D&D and it's many novels.
Now, the implementation of a skill-based system can be very important. Keep in mind that equipment is everything. As a warrior is hindered without his sword, so should a mage be hindered without his staff. A mage trying to cast a spell with a sword in his hand won't be getting the full effect, just like a warrior trying to club someone with a staff. Thieves can't quite sneak around in full platemail. Well, not easily. Then there's comparing the skills you get for free at character creation versus no skill at all and trying to train up a new profession from scratch.
Yeah the best heroes should be able to do it all if we're speaking strictly in book and movie terms. If everybody was like Vin Diesel or Chuck Norris in any MMORPG like they are in the movies, the game would be pure chaos. It would almost be pointless to play. Let's keep the medium in the right context here which is in MMORPG. A class that could do it all would be imbalanced and pointless, no other class would be needed in a game like that if they were able to do everything so effectively. Unfortunately in MMORPG standards, everyone is not going to be the crazy awesome hero like the celebrities are in your favorite fantasy-based action movies/books. A game requires balance for everyone to be able to enjoy it.
People seem to be harping on this one point as if it's a bad thing. The best heroes are well-rounded heroes that can stand on their own. The class-based archetype is something stressed too much in D&D and it's many novels.
Now, the implementation of a skill-based system can be very important. Keep in mind that equipment is everything. As a warrior is hindered without his sword, so should a mage be hindered without his staff. A mage trying to cast a spell with a sword in his hand won't be getting the full effect, just like a warrior trying to club someone with a staff. Thieves can't quite sneak around in full platemail. Well, not easily. Then there's comparing the skills you get for free at character creation versus no skill at all and trying to train up a new profession from scratch.
The ironic thing about the discussion of being a Mage+Theif+Warrior is that being that type of character is being class based. Its called 'multiclassing'. DDO, Runes of Magic, and plenty of others have multiclassing. Its not a feature unique to skill based systems. There is so much gray area here between pure class based and pure skill based systems!
I like Mylon's example of another restriction that can be used in a skill based game to make it more like a class based game. Not all skill based games have those types of equipment restrictions. Its one of many restrictions that can be put on a skill based system to make similar to a class based system.
Its interesting to consider the sheer variety of class based games and what they do to give them qualities of skill based systems. You've got things like Free Realm's jobs, RoM's multiclassing, DDO multitude of options, WoW's talent trees. Its equally interesting to consider all the mechanics used in skill based systems to give them qualities of class based systems. You've got gear restrictions like Mylon mentioned, skill prerequisites, limited skill points, and attribute synergies that all work toward enforcing roles in a way that makes it just like classes.
Is there really a big difference between choosing your class at character creation and choosing role as you assign skill points?
Well short, straight to the point and true. Well, I know it is fashionable to bash classes, but I actually love classes. I mean a good class allowes a very rounded, balanced feeling, where you have a role, a character to play, something to shape your identity in an otherwise quite generic experience. I mean, in the end everyone does the same quests, and having a class is something to make you someone. If you play a thief or a paladin, that shapes your identity much more as if you just are "some dood with 763 different skills".
Are they always ideal? Heck, no! But personally I always prefer a class based MMO, alone for the good way to work as a team, when you KNOW the other people's skills at heart and you can really train to cooperate and not have to start from zero with every new group you get.
I love classes. My favourite class ever btw was Disciple from Vanguard. I loved to play that class.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I am going to try to make my point from the start a bit clearer with a wall of text and some examples:
Dnd Attachments
I think you people might be attached to what DnD introduced, which is that your character is this and forever this and deal with it, you can't do anything else, that is very depressing for maybe a guy that can only use a sword when he really needs to use a bow and arrow ONCE in a while.
Excel at Everything?, we're definitely on different pages here
By being able to make decisions getting skills, you do know we have a very limited points to spread out right?, the further you go into the game the more the game demands a skill to reach a level to be able to deal with enemies and problems. Example: All stats are maxed at lvl 40 where you are very good at it, 30 is good, 20 is average and 10 is still very weak, now you have 3 of those and they give you 70 points.
Melee: 20
Ranged: 20
Magic: 20
This character is no good in any field, he is barely average so he can't access the areas he is supposed to he did by wasting 50 points all spread out, but this character:
Melee: 40
Ranged:
30 Magic: 0
He didn't bother in magic, but he doesn't need it because he can easily deal with enemies and already has gotten his role of all out attacker, be it from 5 meter arrow attack to put off his opponent senses or stunning him with a net to a slash combo which pummels his opponent to the ground (I haven't seen this type of combat in an MMO, but maybe in a later one). Basically if the player spreads out, it is his own fault he failed.
And to further dis encourage a character with many skills, you just make getting a new skill more expensive as you keep learning new ones which would end in punishing someone even more than leveling a skill further up, so in the end a player would choose either and all out warrior or a warrior that uses a few magical nichés to gain advantage in combat or a warrior with stealth (Not becoming 100% invisible because that just doesn't make sense and is broken in terms of balance.
And you DO HAVE limited points to spread out man, don't start thinking its infinite and you can get 40 in all stats, it's not possible like in whichever game your referring to.
I didn't like this path much I want to change my character a bit
Someone chose a warrior and is on per say level 6, he doesn't want to change because he wants to catch up with some friends at lvl 8 but he hates doing combat purely as a warrior.
Well with skill system he can easily change his class a bit trying to level up his ranged skills such as range, precision and maybe a little stealth to be able to easily hide behind some bushes IN THE WORLD, NOT BECOME INVISIBLE, now he can do his warrior attacks and do some archer attacks when needed, maybe kill a running enemy, hiding from a group of PKers behind the bushes, kill a bird up in the air, but of course he wouldn't be able to do advanced archer things like sniping from very far away, running very fast or even be able to climb cliffs because of his heavy armor and klutziness.
Well short, straight to the point and true. Well, I know it is fashionable to bash classes, but I actually love classes. I mean a good class allowes a very rounded, balanced feeling, where you have a role, a character to play, something to shape your identity in an otherwise quite generic experience. I mean, in the end everyone does the same quests, and having a class is something to make you someone. If you play a thief or a paladin, that shapes your identity much more as if you just are "some dood with 763 different skills".
Are they always ideal? Heck, no! But personally I always prefer a class based MMO, alone for the good way to work as a team, when you KNOW the other people's skills at heart and you can really train to cooperate and not have to start from zero with every new group you get.
I love classes. My favourite class ever btw was Disciple from Vanguard. I loved to play that class.
763 skills?
By skills we do not reffer to whatever crappy skill system you saw.
Skills should be very few, unique, which should give you more advantages as you level and rarely be attacks.
Example:
You have 763 skills, I have about 9 in total, maybe more? :
Warrior skills
Blow: How hard he blows his sword.
Shock: How well he can handle an enemy blow.
Stamina: How much strength he has to deal out damage and resist difficulties (Poison, traps, nets)
Lets say you learn blow and are now at lvl 1 blow, you can now actually swing a sword, hurray for you, but if you level up to lvl 5 which will require quite a few skill points, you will now be able to send small mobs flying and maybe ven knock down your opponent once in a while, at lvl 10 you can knock down larger opponents (Maybe Ogres).
Now lets say you learn shock and are at lvl 1, this is pretty much a defensive skill to counter a blow, maybe you want to be very defensive, at lvl 1 you can now actually have a chance to avoid being knocked down sometimes, but at lvl 5, you can resist maybe an attack from a large bear without even budging or receive and arrow in your leg and not even flinch to proceed in combat without losing advantage, at lvl 10 you could easily neutralize everything from a giant ogre club that is if you are outfitted with a HUGE Iron shield, no shield, feel pain no matter how good you have leveled shock, so if you are hit with a club from behind, you are going to fly.
Stamina, how many blows can you take before finally giving in?, can you carry a HUGE iron shield?, at lvl 1 you would be able to resist maybe a few more blows, you might not, what you will do is as you level, be able to handle larger weapons and deal with inconveniences easier, at lvl5 if you are hit with a poison arrow, the damage from it might be greatly reduced thanks to your good stamina instead of duplicating damage because you are out of stamina, at lvl 10 you might even be able to handle that HUGE Iron shield we've been talking about.
Archer Skills
Range, how far do your arrows go?, lvl 1 --5 meters, lvl 5 -- 20 meters, lvl 10 -- 30 meters, of course the damage an arrow deals out would probably depend on your warrior's blow skill as well as how far you are (The further away, the more deadly your shots, but not 1 hit KO though since your opponent will probably be able to withstand it or you would easily miss since he is running.
Precision, how far off do your arrows stray out?, lvl 1 -- You wouldn't hit a duck 10 meters in front of you, lvl 5 -- Arrows Stray off a bit in large distances, lvl 10 -- Arrows rarely stray off in large distances.
Vision, how far can you see?, sure your arrows reach until Olympus but you do not know squat of what happened, lvl 1 vision you can see a bit further while doing archery in a scope like vision, lvl 5 vision you can look much further away to match your range, and at lvl 10 You can see mostly every detail, this could be used to even spy on enemy actions in a battle from the forest or high trees.
Disciple Skills
Reflex how fast can he react to attacks from behind or how fast can he go at short distances, how easily can he dodge attacks? (This wouldn't just be a magical dodge message but would be a system which would warn you if you are being targeted), lvl 1 you can tell if your going to be attacked, lvl 5 you can tell if they are coming to you from behind even if they are in stealth as long as they are targeting you for an attack, lvl 10, you can tell if an arrow is being targeted at you even from afar so you can easily move away.
Melee Can you outmaneuver your opponent hand to hand?, to the extent of disarming him of his weapon?, leaving him prone on the ground simply putting your foot between his legs?, lvl 1 you can avoid his weapons with some side step attack move given to you when learning the ability, lvl 5 you can trip your opponent leaving him prone, lvl 10 you can disarm your enemy of his fancy pike easily, or difficultally a sword by chopping his hand with a karate chop.
Mind How disciplined is your mind?, can you ignore visual effects or inverted controls from spells or poison?, lvl 1 you can ignore visual effects, lvl 5 you can avoid being affected by poison side effects aside from damage, lvl 10 you can overcome paralysis every once in a while.
Only 9 skills and requiring 90 skills points to do all of the benefits I described, I doubt you could get 90 skill points in a game, some players might sacrifice a little power for a special advantage or decide to go all out ninja or sniper?
Just hand out 40 skills points and you got yourself a character or a flop of one if you decide to go for all possible skills.
I am going to try to make my point from the start a bit clearer with a wall of text and some examples: Dnd Attachments I think you people might be attached to what DnD introduced, which is that your character is this and forever this and deal with it, you can't do anything else, that is very depressing for maybe a guy that can only use a sword when he really needs to use a bow and arrow ONCE in a while.
You lost me a bit here by using DnD as an example. Everything you mentioned as an example of what is possible in a skill based game is also possible in DnD, a class based system. In DnD its not depressing to be a sword user and then want to use a bow. You can simply multiclass a couple levels of Ranger to get some bow proficiency and a lot of bow enhancing skills.
Don't get me wrong here. I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate. I prefer skill systems. My point here is that a well developed class system is just as flexible as a well developed skill system. Also, a poorly developed skill system can be just as restricting as any class system.
The real enemy here is bad game design, not skills, and not classes. Aion is a good example of a poorly designed class system since it has no talent trees, no attributes to adjust, and no skills to choose. UO, in its early days, was an example of a bad skill system. There was no cap on skills. A hardcore player could make GM in every skill they were interested in and then fill every role available. To make matters worse it could all be done with overnight macros.
There are also complications that come into the game design that can make class systems have some real world advantages. Artistic theme is a big one. Druids can have class specific gear that is all leafy and natural. Warriors can have thematic gear that makes them look like a tin can. Like others have said, a game needs character and that is one thing that classes can provide.
Another side effect of a skill based game is how to handle respecs. A respec can allow the player to completely change their primary role making a respec much more significant than you would see in a class respec which will most likely be a much smaller change to your character overall. Game designers of skill based games are much less likely to give out respecs and whether you like respec or not, there are a lot of people who do like them. Its a feature that is much easier to justify in a class based game.
Personally, the number one aspect of class based games that I like are the big overpowered rule breaking abilities. Things like the Paladin's bubble, the healer's resurrect, the warrior's charge. If you make those available to everyone so that they can charge, bubble, resurrect, hold (ex. WoW's sheep), heal, and do everything under the sun then it can away a lot of the strategic significance that can make a game deep and interesting. With a class system these overpowered abilities can be balanced individually with weaknesses in other areas.
Again, I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate and really do like skill systems. So don't crucify me for disagreeing. I've designed board games both ways and have come to appreciate the pros and cons of either method. When it comes to MMOG's my favorites have always been the skill based games like UO, AC, and FE.
Interesting, I am one step away from clarifying my idea ;p.
My idea of a good skill system is basically a class based system backwards...I know XD
The thing that the skill based system has is exactly what you said, the character experienced a little bit of warrior and is fine with it, but doesn't want it to be his main focus, so he changes to learn a few archer abilities, he then realizes he loves sniping people and hiding from afar so he chooses to specialize in that role and leave warrior as a secondary skill.
In a class based system you would be forced to play as a warrior as your primary role, but in skill based system you could choose your primary role over time after tasting every skill, this could easily be done if for each 5 levels you advanced, you could choose to RELOCATE a skill point you might not like, maybe you tried out warrior, archer and mage, but you decide to stick with 1st -archer/ 2nd -mage, so you use your relocating items to relocate a few points from warrior which you don't really need that much to become much better at your chosen skills.
At the end when you reached an extreme, advanced enough in one or two orientations (Warrior, archer, mage) you would be given an spectacular ability like you said.
In class based system you are forced to choose without knowing how your play style will be forced to be, while in a WELL MADE skill based system you can choose what to be overtime as you experiment.
So yeah I agree with you, its all thanks to poor game design from the developers, an MMO should be made thinking about the crucial features from the start instead of your typical target and attack MMO template (wow, RoM, Allods and probably many more I haven't bothered with).
Comments
Since you asked about what kind of restrictions, I think you're already assuming one of them. The restriction of a maximum number of skill points. It forces a kind of specialization, bringing the skill based system one step closer to a class based system. You can also have restrictions such as the powersets and tiers in Champions. All classes do is enforce them a bit more rigidly.
How can the class based D&D online be so much more diverse and deep than any skill based system currently available? The classes aren't restricting players from being utterly creative in their designs. Its deep and interesting because there are meaningful choices and trade offs that are not present in an open skill based system like that found in Darkfall.
I like Hellgate's class/skill/attribute distribution system. Not only did you have a choice if classes, but within it, a choices of skills-trees to select from, and also, the player's choice how to distribute attribute points for STR/INT/DEX etc... Not one 2 toons were alike even if in the same classes. Because depending on skill tree's you could only pick out certain skills per level, and are limitited to specific sub-build if you will. The attribute points, ... some ppl would put them all in into stamina and swear that HP points was the way to go, but for me I'd save my attribute points just in case I found a Legendary or Unique armor peice that would require a str or stam or int feed.
Yup no 2 characters were ever alike because even the variety of armor you'd find, you could build around your armor peices for specific build for speed, evasion or even increase the armor/damage dealing/hp of your minions.
Diablo2 and Torchlight is about the closest thing to Hellgate, but if only it played 1st/3rd person like Hellgate, then I would like it more (not that I don't mind top/down Isometric view rpgs... I do, just perfer them to be 1st/3rd person view).
* ORIGINAL POST EDITED down to just the things i wanted to comment on.
let me comment on the last sentence first, since this is the main point i replied to this thread.....
try Rubies Of Eventide. or at least read about its class system
it seems to me like you are class obsessed cuz you don't think its good to be classless. maybe you just worded the title of your thread haphazardly, and that's really not your point (whether people are class obsessed or not).
i agree with that first statement that players should be able to play the way they want, and that classes get in the way of that. which is why i like that aspect of Darkfall. but it seems like you go on to contradict yourself, by saying its not good that everybody can do everything. if your primary goal is realism (then making games that are supposed to be FUN was the wrong career path for you), then sure, it makes sense to limit players. cuz nobody can be a football star, rock star, professor, painter, teacher, house wife, brain surgeon, rocket scientist all in one lifetime. blah blah blah. for a FUN based game however.....
now FORCING people to do everything is a whole different ballgame. thats an extreme mistake, and unfortunately Darkfall undoes itself by committing that criime. THAT IS NOT INHERRENT IN CLASSLESS SYSTEMS THO. its just a specific, incredibly stupid thing the Darkfall devs have done. i've never done gathering/crafting in games before because i hate it, and yet....unless i wanna have an inferior character..... i'm FORCED to tradeskill in Darkfall. and not just ONE craft but pretty much ALL of them. therefore a good majority of my time in DF is pure progress bar grind to support the small percentage of the time i can participate in the very fun combat. because all the crafts raise various stats. that's the #1 worse thing about the game to me, and the main reason i only subscribed one month. people who only wanted to play melee would hate Darkfall cuz they are forced to do archery or spellcasting part of the time in order to be competitive.
DF does do many things right, and is very unique therefore i've subscribed another month recently, but its back to the love/hate fun/but-grindy-as-hell-grind. grrrrr! please somebody make a game with all its strengths and no grind! definitely can't take more than a month at a time (and not even play the whole month this time probably).
I'm subscribed to Darkfall too, but I bought that 6 months thing and I'm lamenting the grind. It was so much more fun at launch when anyone could jump in and get a kill if they were skillful enough. The game is pretty much entirely flawed, on a new character you're required to grind for months before you can even participate in PvP without dying immediately.
Edit: Damn you for causing me to derail.
I agree they should have limitations. But I see, like the individual above who wants to be a warrior-mage-thief, playres who want to be everything.
I realize that this is just my personal prejudice but I can't abide a system that allows for someone to be all of those things and to excel at all of those things, simply because it flies in the face of story. It becomes less about being a character in a world and more about being a character in a game.
Now I'm not calling for real world simulators, but having a master thief assassin/master warrior or blademaster and sorceror who can call down demi gods seems to just trivialize any of those things. In effect they become nothing BUT stats and stats that players can all spend time working on to their heart's content.
Some might say "well that's how I want to play" and they are welcome to it but for my taste I would immediately steer clear of a game like that as it just cheapens the whole thing for me.
The only way I would play a skill based game is if the skills integrated in a way that makes sense and if there were hard choices that players had to make.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Hehe, I find this quite funny. You most certainly can!
Roll a Druid...
Druid = Rogue + Mage + Warrior
* ORIGINAL POST EDITED down to just the things i wanted to comment on.
let me comment on the last sentence first, since this is the main point i replied to this thread.....
try Rubies Of Eventide. or at least read about its class system
it seems to me like you are class obsessed cuz you don't think its good to be classless. maybe you just worded the title of your thread haphazardly, and that's really not your point (whether people are class obsessed or not).
i agree with that first statement that players should be able to play the way they want, and that classes get in the way of that. which is why i like that aspect of Darkfall. but it seems like you go on to contradict yourself, by saying its not good that everybody can do everything. if your primary goal is realism (then making games that are supposed to be FUN was the wrong career path for you), then sure, it makes sense to limit players. cuz nobody can be a football star, rock star, professor, painter, teacher, house wife, brain surgeon, rocket scientist all in one lifetime. blah blah blah. for a FUN based game however.....
now FORCING people to do everything is a whole different ballgame. thats an extreme mistake, and unfortunately Darkfall undoes itself by committing that criime. THAT IS NOT INHERRENT IN CLASSLESS SYSTEMS THO. its just a specific, incredibly stupid thing the Darkfall devs have done. i've never done gathering/crafting in games before because i hate it, and yet....unless i wanna have an inferior character..... i'm FORCED to tradeskill in Darkfall. and not just ONE craft but pretty much ALL of them. therefore a good majority of my time in DF is pure progress bar grind to support the small percentage of the time i can participate in the very fun combat. because all the crafts raise various stats. that's the #1 worse thing about the game to me, and the main reason i only subscribed one month. people who only wanted to play melee would hate Darkfall cuz they are forced to do archery or spellcasting part of the time in order to be competitive.
DF does do many things right, and is very unique therefore i've subscribed another month recently, but its back to the love/hate fun/but-grindy-as-hell-grind. grrrrr! please somebody make a game with all its strengths and no grind! definitely can't take more than a month at a time (and not even play the whole month this time probably).
I'm subscribed to Darkfall too, but I bought that 6 months thing and I'm lamenting the grind. It was so much more fun at launch when anyone could jump in and get a kill if they were skillful enough. The game is pretty much entirely flawed, on a new character you're required to grind for months before you can even participate in PvP without dying immediately.
Edit: Damn you for causing me to derail.
In this, we can completely agree
Please say that over here and here, because they dont believe us:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/262738/Is-There-Such-a-Thing-as-a-Game-Without-Levels.html
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/262174/One-of-the-most-levelbased-MMOs-out-there-Just-a-warning.html
I agree, but you're using 'classes' and 'roles' for the same thing. They aren't necessarily the same thing. Its just a matter of semantics though.
A WoW Paladin for example can be a tank, dps, or healer. That is quite a bit of flexibility for a class based game. Skill based games start to get boring and generic when a single character is able to fill every role. That is probably its greatest shortcoming. To address this, they add restrictions. Then you start on the slippery slope between pure skill based (like Darkfall) and pure class based (like Aion). A completely restricted skill based system IS class based. You can loosen it up some and add some flexibility, but once you get to the point of unlimited flexibility you're back to a skill based system. Its not really a black and white issue as many people are trying to make it into.
Thanks, and I agree it's not black/white like everyone thinks, it's entirely grey!
But even outside of semantics... in essence... isn't it all just the exact same thing?
Skill based? Pft.
Class based? Pft.
Those are just words for Role Based, and the multi-class/skill ability to take on multiple roles.
I think if we want to change MMORPG's, the answer is definitely NOT to make it a skill based game, nor a class based game, and although I agree a fine balance would be best, I think that's not the answer people like the OP are looking for.
Skill = Class = Role = Level = Loop
If people are tired of classes, then they're tired of skills, they're tired of levels, they're tired of roles. The answer is to get rid of the trinity of roles and reform game mechanics entirely.
I agree, but you're using 'classes' and 'roles' for the same thing. They aren't necessarily the same thing. Its just a matter of semantics though.
A WoW Paladin for example can be a tank, dps, or healer. That is quite a bit of flexibility for a class based game. Skill based games start to get boring and generic when a single character is able to fill every role. That is probably its greatest shortcoming. To address this, they add restrictions. Then you start on the slippery slope between pure skill based (like Darkfall) and pure class based (like Aion). A completely restricted skill based system IS class based. You can loosen it up some and add some flexibility, but once you get to the point of unlimited flexibility you're back to a skill based system. Its not really a black and white issue as many people are trying to make it into.
Thanks, and I agree it's not black/white like everyone thinks, it's entirely grey!
But even outside of semantics... in essence... isn't it all just the exact same thing?
Skill based? Pft.
Class based? Pft.
Those are just words for Role Based, and the multi-class/skill ability to take on multiple roles.
I think if we want to change MMORPG's, the answer is definitely NOT to make it a skill based game, nor a class based game, and although I agree a fine balance would be best, I think that's not the answer people like the OP are looking for.
Skill = Class = Role = Level = Loop
If people are tired of classes, then they're tired of skills, they're tired of levels, they're tired of roles. The answer is to get rid of the trinity of roles and reform game mechanics entirely.
I still don't see how they are essentially the same thing. In a class-based game you are limited to the options presented by the game designers by the class you can choose which ultimately defines every other part of your character for you. In a skill-based game you are limited to the options presented within the skill set, created by the designers, but not in the role you fill.
In UO, my first character could mine, craft equipment, tame weak creatures, cook food, and fight...a little. I didn't adhere to any traditional roles and I definitely didn't follow the Trinity. That was the only time I felt like I was playing a RPG. I spread my skills out thinly and didn't even care that I could never fight the hardest monsters in the game (I had no way to heal and I was pretty weak to begin with), but I was still able to progress my character the way I wanted to and all of those skills were important decisions (in WoW for example, anyone can pick up a trade profession without sacrificing their characters ability in combat). I haven't seen anything like that since then.
I think having defined roles that people are sort of guided to but not forced to take up would work out for everyone. That would be a skill-based system that emphasizes roles to guide players but still allows the "Sandbox" freedom that others desire.
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"Fixed it. Because that wall of text attacked me, killed me and looted my body..."
-George "sniperg" Light
And that makes them not in the Minority how?
I believe he was pointing out that you can't really say that sandbox games vs. themepark fantasy mmorpgs' popularities are is a good indication of class-based or not, specifically, because not only are most sandbox games extremely newb-unfriendly, but involve the player a lot, not into the game as such, but into the community, which is the real kicker for sandbox games anyway.
He is also saying that they are produced by indie companies, you know, those people like you and me who have ideas, but not necessarily the skills to make a game. Perhaps we have a nice little savings account of like, $5 million, and we got a group of forty or so people to make the game for a few years, as opposed to the corporate giants in the MMO sector, like NCSoft, Funcom, Blizzard, Cryptic, these places have huge financial support, either by investors or through previous game sales.
---
Anyway, my 2 cents on the idea of skill-based systems is that they should include something similar to the Certificate system a la EVE Online. I'll just check a few of my certificates and tell you what they entail... grr, downloading a patch, the bad thing about free expansions...
Field Technician - Basic
-Salvaging Level I
-Mechanic Level III
-Survey Level III
-Electronics Level I
Resource Harvester - Basic
-Mining Level IV
Refinery Foreman - Basic
-Refining Level III
-Industry Level I
So, with those certificates, you can sort of get an idea of what I've been doing... getting mining skills up (I want my Retriever, damnit!) and also learning salvaging, through the beginner tutorials... I've also been trying to get my refining up to a bit better efficiency.
With a more obvious certificate-esque system in a fantasy-based game, you could even get titles, or bonuses granted with certain certificates. If you see a person walking around with the "Shaman" tag in their name, it could mean they've learned a bunch of given skills that work well with a stereotypical, but perhaps well planned and defined character or role.
Certain certificate-esque titles could be given exclusive access to further skills or traits. Say, for example, I've learned the following for the "Beserker" title:
Beserker
-Melee Level IV
-Off-hand Melee Level III
-Dual Wielding Level I
-Bloodlust Level I
-Pain Threshold Level III
An additional ability that is only available for those using the Beserker title could be, say, Frenzied Striking - which decreases chance to parry or block by 1%, and increases the chance to critically hit by 2%, passively, with an increase of each by the same up to level five.
In this way, a Beserker is gimping their ability to tank by choosing to increase this ability, but the increase to critical chance is pretty nice.
The way I see it, players should learn how to counter these melee-dps monsters instead of crying about them and getting everything available to every class (Blizzard has swayed to the demands of the masses, and we've seen how that's turned out). If you were to fight a beserker, you should know that you can likely kill them fairly easily, as long as you don't let them take out everything by ignoring them to focus on various tank-types.
I mean, the list goes on for how you could help create specialised roles that disallow making fully-capable hybrids.
Say there was an ability, "Spiritual Attunement" - increases holy damage and healing by 2% (up to 10%), decreases other magical damage by 1%(up to 5%) and chance to critically hit with spells by 1% (up to 5%)
If someone were to get Spiritual Attunement, they would be gimping out their mage/shaman/elemental/arcane affinities to increase their holy and healing ability, to become some sort of monk/paladin/priestly character. The lore would generally make sense, depending on the game IP universe, as most forms of "magic" are "manipulation" and "conjuring", forcing various elements and energies into your bidding with your mind and nature attunement, where as a holy ability should come through devotion and faith to some path, rather than learned magics.
Anyway, it's not to say someone couldn't be a hybrid, but doing so would make it so you could never be as good as a pure-breed in any one gameplay style.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
You all need to learn to spell.
I would agree that people should be able to be able to play as a mage + theif + warrior, but no mageifior should be better at being a mage than someone who just plays a mage, or better as a theif than someone who just plays a theif, or better than a warrior than someone who just plays a warrior.
I believe that adding skills that give positive attributes as well as negative attributes would help to cap out this sort of ridiculous "I'm the buffest mofo you ever seen, 'cause I train EVERY SKILL TO MAXIMUM."
I mean, if someone has every skill to maximum in a game with +'s and -'s to skills, they're going to have a character, let's say they go for melee specialisation.
Melee +10, Ranged -5, Magic -5
And then they add in some ranged specialisation!
Ranged +10, Melee -5, Magic -5
And then they add in some magic specialisation!
Magic +10, Melee -5, Ranged -5
I mean, that is the ultimate redundancy of skill training I have ever seen. Granted, getting both melee and ranged, or melee and magic, or magic and ranged, would end up with a +5 to both and -10 to one, but it disallows the ability of just getting everything and being more buff than everyone else.
A Ranger, who plans to use ranged attacks more than anything, should get Ranged specialisation, and stick to it. Perhaps you could have an unlearning ability in the game that still takes a little while, but only like a 10th of the time to untrain than it did to train. I work at McDonald's (University study life is hell), and every time they change something on a burger, it makes the next week or two annoying, until the new procedure cements itself properly.
Anyway, just an additional two cents for game design thought pools.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
You all need to learn to spell.
Adding restrictions like mentioned above, puts classes to a classless game. I rest my case.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Most people would rather just pick a class, level it, have no say in the spells/abilities you gain as you level and even less at level cap through limited class trees.
I would rather think up my own class that's tailored to my play style than roll a class just to find out that it really isnt me and have to start over.
I like the flexibility in skill systems.
In general I would say I am in agreence with metalhead980 on this. I'm an old school PnP D&D player. Half the fun of D&D for me was "developing" my character as I went. Bathesda did a great job with Elder Scrolls and Oblivion of providing cookie cutter classes and also allowng players to make thier own classes. Not a bad way to go in my opinion.
A tiny mind is a tidy mind...
Personally I'd prefer to see a fully classless system. However, this is far harder to implement for the developers. You have to take way more things into account as opposed to pre-build classes.
Classes are outdated. Remove classes and we can have MMO's that offer totally different gameplay, as classes are restricting what we can do in an MMO.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
Honestly, classes with defined roles, with flexibility of course, helps me focus. Otherwise id be doing a different thing every day and never get anything done.
People seem to be harping on this one point as if it's a bad thing. The best heroes are well-rounded heroes that can stand on their own. The class-based archetype is something stressed too much in D&D and it's many novels.
Now, the implementation of a skill-based system can be very important. Keep in mind that equipment is everything. As a warrior is hindered without his sword, so should a mage be hindered without his staff. A mage trying to cast a spell with a sword in his hand won't be getting the full effect, just like a warrior trying to club someone with a staff. Thieves can't quite sneak around in full platemail. Well, not easily. Then there's comparing the skills you get for free at character creation versus no skill at all and trying to train up a new profession from scratch.
Dungeons and Dragons, the pen and paper version set the standard. It had classes and levels.
This fits in well with the fantasy genre in that in most fantasy settings you have wizards, warriors, rogues, etc
Noteably, both Gandalf and Conan were multi classed.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
People seem to be harping on this one point as if it's a bad thing. The best heroes are well-rounded heroes that can stand on their own. The class-based archetype is something stressed too much in D&D and it's many novels.
Now, the implementation of a skill-based system can be very important. Keep in mind that equipment is everything. As a warrior is hindered without his sword, so should a mage be hindered without his staff. A mage trying to cast a spell with a sword in his hand won't be getting the full effect, just like a warrior trying to club someone with a staff. Thieves can't quite sneak around in full platemail. Well, not easily. Then there's comparing the skills you get for free at character creation versus no skill at all and trying to train up a new profession from scratch.
Yeah the best heroes should be able to do it all if we're speaking strictly in book and movie terms. If everybody was like Vin Diesel or Chuck Norris in any MMORPG like they are in the movies, the game would be pure chaos. It would almost be pointless to play. Let's keep the medium in the right context here which is in MMORPG. A class that could do it all would be imbalanced and pointless, no other class would be needed in a game like that if they were able to do everything so effectively. Unfortunately in MMORPG standards, everyone is not going to be the crazy awesome hero like the celebrities are in your favorite fantasy-based action movies/books. A game requires balance for everyone to be able to enjoy it.
People seem to be harping on this one point as if it's a bad thing. The best heroes are well-rounded heroes that can stand on their own. The class-based archetype is something stressed too much in D&D and it's many novels.
Now, the implementation of a skill-based system can be very important. Keep in mind that equipment is everything. As a warrior is hindered without his sword, so should a mage be hindered without his staff. A mage trying to cast a spell with a sword in his hand won't be getting the full effect, just like a warrior trying to club someone with a staff. Thieves can't quite sneak around in full platemail. Well, not easily. Then there's comparing the skills you get for free at character creation versus no skill at all and trying to train up a new profession from scratch.
The ironic thing about the discussion of being a Mage+Theif+Warrior is that being that type of character is being class based. Its called 'multiclassing'. DDO, Runes of Magic, and plenty of others have multiclassing. Its not a feature unique to skill based systems. There is so much gray area here between pure class based and pure skill based systems!
I like Mylon's example of another restriction that can be used in a skill based game to make it more like a class based game. Not all skill based games have those types of equipment restrictions. Its one of many restrictions that can be put on a skill based system to make similar to a class based system.
Its interesting to consider the sheer variety of class based games and what they do to give them qualities of skill based systems. You've got things like Free Realm's jobs, RoM's multiclassing, DDO multitude of options, WoW's talent trees. Its equally interesting to consider all the mechanics used in skill based systems to give them qualities of class based systems. You've got gear restrictions like Mylon mentioned, skill prerequisites, limited skill points, and attribute synergies that all work toward enforcing roles in a way that makes it just like classes.
Is there really a big difference between choosing your class at character creation and choosing role as you assign skill points?
Well short, straight to the point and true. Well, I know it is fashionable to bash classes, but I actually love classes. I mean a good class allowes a very rounded, balanced feeling, where you have a role, a character to play, something to shape your identity in an otherwise quite generic experience. I mean, in the end everyone does the same quests, and having a class is something to make you someone. If you play a thief or a paladin, that shapes your identity much more as if you just are "some dood with 763 different skills".
Are they always ideal? Heck, no! But personally I always prefer a class based MMO, alone for the good way to work as a team, when you KNOW the other people's skills at heart and you can really train to cooperate and not have to start from zero with every new group you get.
I love classes. My favourite class ever btw was Disciple from Vanguard. I loved to play that class.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Classes are easier to design around and simpler for the simpletons to understand.
UO had one of the best classless system. Each skill could be taken up to 100 and each character was allowed 700 skill points.
I am going to try to make my point from the start a bit clearer with a wall of text and some examples:
Dnd Attachments
I think you people might be attached to what DnD introduced, which is that your character is this and forever this and deal with it, you can't do anything else, that is very depressing for maybe a guy that can only use a sword when he really needs to use a bow and arrow ONCE in a while.
Excel at Everything?, we're definitely on different pages here
By being able to make decisions getting skills, you do know we have a very limited points to spread out right?, the further you go into the game the more the game demands a skill to reach a level to be able to deal with enemies and problems. Example: All stats are maxed at lvl 40 where you are very good at it, 30 is good, 20 is average and 10 is still very weak, now you have 3 of those and they give you 70 points.
Melee: 20
Ranged: 20
Magic: 20
This character is no good in any field, he is barely average so he can't access the areas he is supposed to he did by wasting 50 points all spread out, but this character:
Melee: 40
Ranged:
30 Magic: 0
He didn't bother in magic, but he doesn't need it because he can easily deal with enemies and already has gotten his role of all out attacker, be it from 5 meter arrow attack to put off his opponent senses or stunning him with a net to a slash combo which pummels his opponent to the ground (I haven't seen this type of combat in an MMO, but maybe in a later one). Basically if the player spreads out, it is his own fault he failed.
And to further dis encourage a character with many skills, you just make getting a new skill more expensive as you keep learning new ones which would end in punishing someone even more than leveling a skill further up, so in the end a player would choose either and all out warrior or a warrior that uses a few magical nichés to gain advantage in combat or a warrior with stealth (Not becoming 100% invisible because that just doesn't make sense and is broken in terms of balance.
And you DO HAVE limited points to spread out man, don't start thinking its infinite and you can get 40 in all stats, it's not possible like in whichever game your referring to.
I didn't like this path much I want to change my character a bit
Someone chose a warrior and is on per say level 6, he doesn't want to change because he wants to catch up with some friends at lvl 8 but he hates doing combat purely as a warrior.
Well with skill system he can easily change his class a bit trying to level up his ranged skills such as range, precision and maybe a little stealth to be able to easily hide behind some bushes IN THE WORLD, NOT BECOME INVISIBLE, now he can do his warrior attacks and do some archer attacks when needed, maybe kill a running enemy, hiding from a group of PKers behind the bushes, kill a bird up in the air, but of course he wouldn't be able to do advanced archer things like sniping from very far away, running very fast or even be able to climb cliffs because of his heavy armor and klutziness.
I think I made my point now.
Well short, straight to the point and true. Well, I know it is fashionable to bash classes, but I actually love classes. I mean a good class allowes a very rounded, balanced feeling, where you have a role, a character to play, something to shape your identity in an otherwise quite generic experience. I mean, in the end everyone does the same quests, and having a class is something to make you someone. If you play a thief or a paladin, that shapes your identity much more as if you just are "some dood with 763 different skills".
Are they always ideal? Heck, no! But personally I always prefer a class based MMO, alone for the good way to work as a team, when you KNOW the other people's skills at heart and you can really train to cooperate and not have to start from zero with every new group you get.
I love classes. My favourite class ever btw was Disciple from Vanguard. I loved to play that class.
763 skills?
By skills we do not reffer to whatever crappy skill system you saw.
Skills should be very few, unique, which should give you more advantages as you level and rarely be attacks.
Example:
You have 763 skills, I have about 9 in total, maybe more? :
Warrior skills
Blow: How hard he blows his sword.
Shock: How well he can handle an enemy blow.
Stamina: How much strength he has to deal out damage and resist difficulties (Poison, traps, nets)
Lets say you learn blow and are now at lvl 1 blow, you can now actually swing a sword, hurray for you, but if you level up to lvl 5 which will require quite a few skill points, you will now be able to send small mobs flying and maybe ven knock down your opponent once in a while, at lvl 10 you can knock down larger opponents (Maybe Ogres).
Now lets say you learn shock and are at lvl 1, this is pretty much a defensive skill to counter a blow, maybe you want to be very defensive, at lvl 1 you can now actually have a chance to avoid being knocked down sometimes, but at lvl 5, you can resist maybe an attack from a large bear without even budging or receive and arrow in your leg and not even flinch to proceed in combat without losing advantage, at lvl 10 you could easily neutralize everything from a giant ogre club that is if you are outfitted with a HUGE Iron shield, no shield, feel pain no matter how good you have leveled shock, so if you are hit with a club from behind, you are going to fly.
Stamina, how many blows can you take before finally giving in?, can you carry a HUGE iron shield?, at lvl 1 you would be able to resist maybe a few more blows, you might not, what you will do is as you level, be able to handle larger weapons and deal with inconveniences easier, at lvl5 if you are hit with a poison arrow, the damage from it might be greatly reduced thanks to your good stamina instead of duplicating damage because you are out of stamina, at lvl 10 you might even be able to handle that HUGE Iron shield we've been talking about.
Archer Skills
Range, how far do your arrows go?, lvl 1 --5 meters, lvl 5 -- 20 meters, lvl 10 -- 30 meters, of course the damage an arrow deals out would probably depend on your warrior's blow skill as well as how far you are (The further away, the more deadly your shots, but not 1 hit KO though since your opponent will probably be able to withstand it or you would easily miss since he is running.
Precision, how far off do your arrows stray out?, lvl 1 -- You wouldn't hit a duck 10 meters in front of you, lvl 5 -- Arrows Stray off a bit in large distances, lvl 10 -- Arrows rarely stray off in large distances.
Vision, how far can you see?, sure your arrows reach until Olympus but you do not know squat of what happened, lvl 1 vision you can see a bit further while doing archery in a scope like vision, lvl 5 vision you can look much further away to match your range, and at lvl 10 You can see mostly every detail, this could be used to even spy on enemy actions in a battle from the forest or high trees.
Disciple Skills
Reflex how fast can he react to attacks from behind or how fast can he go at short distances, how easily can he dodge attacks? (This wouldn't just be a magical dodge message but would be a system which would warn you if you are being targeted), lvl 1 you can tell if your going to be attacked, lvl 5 you can tell if they are coming to you from behind even if they are in stealth as long as they are targeting you for an attack, lvl 10, you can tell if an arrow is being targeted at you even from afar so you can easily move away.
Melee Can you outmaneuver your opponent hand to hand?, to the extent of disarming him of his weapon?, leaving him prone on the ground simply putting your foot between his legs?, lvl 1 you can avoid his weapons with some side step attack move given to you when learning the ability, lvl 5 you can trip your opponent leaving him prone, lvl 10 you can disarm your enemy of his fancy pike easily, or difficultally a sword by chopping his hand with a karate chop.
Mind How disciplined is your mind?, can you ignore visual effects or inverted controls from spells or poison?, lvl 1 you can ignore visual effects, lvl 5 you can avoid being affected by poison side effects aside from damage, lvl 10 you can overcome paralysis every once in a while.
Only 9 skills and requiring 90 skills points to do all of the benefits I described, I doubt you could get 90 skill points in a game, some players might sacrifice a little power for a special advantage or decide to go all out ninja or sniper?
Just hand out 40 skills points and you got yourself a character or a flop of one if you decide to go for all possible skills.
You lost me a bit here by using DnD as an example. Everything you mentioned as an example of what is possible in a skill based game is also possible in DnD, a class based system. In DnD its not depressing to be a sword user and then want to use a bow. You can simply multiclass a couple levels of Ranger to get some bow proficiency and a lot of bow enhancing skills.
Don't get me wrong here. I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate. I prefer skill systems. My point here is that a well developed class system is just as flexible as a well developed skill system. Also, a poorly developed skill system can be just as restricting as any class system.
The real enemy here is bad game design, not skills, and not classes. Aion is a good example of a poorly designed class system since it has no talent trees, no attributes to adjust, and no skills to choose. UO, in its early days, was an example of a bad skill system. There was no cap on skills. A hardcore player could make GM in every skill they were interested in and then fill every role available. To make matters worse it could all be done with overnight macros.
There are also complications that come into the game design that can make class systems have some real world advantages. Artistic theme is a big one. Druids can have class specific gear that is all leafy and natural. Warriors can have thematic gear that makes them look like a tin can. Like others have said, a game needs character and that is one thing that classes can provide.
Another side effect of a skill based game is how to handle respecs. A respec can allow the player to completely change their primary role making a respec much more significant than you would see in a class respec which will most likely be a much smaller change to your character overall. Game designers of skill based games are much less likely to give out respecs and whether you like respec or not, there are a lot of people who do like them. Its a feature that is much easier to justify in a class based game.
Personally, the number one aspect of class based games that I like are the big overpowered rule breaking abilities. Things like the Paladin's bubble, the healer's resurrect, the warrior's charge. If you make those available to everyone so that they can charge, bubble, resurrect, hold (ex. WoW's sheep), heal, and do everything under the sun then it can away a lot of the strategic significance that can make a game deep and interesting. With a class system these overpowered abilities can be balanced individually with weaknesses in other areas.
Again, I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate and really do like skill systems. So don't crucify me for disagreeing.
Interesting, I am one step away from clarifying my idea ;p.
My idea of a good skill system is basically a class based system backwards...I know XD
The thing that the skill based system has is exactly what you said, the character experienced a little bit of warrior and is fine with it, but doesn't want it to be his main focus, so he changes to learn a few archer abilities, he then realizes he loves sniping people and hiding from afar so he chooses to specialize in that role and leave warrior as a secondary skill.
In a class based system you would be forced to play as a warrior as your primary role, but in skill based system you could choose your primary role over time after tasting every skill, this could easily be done if for each 5 levels you advanced, you could choose to RELOCATE a skill point you might not like, maybe you tried out warrior, archer and mage, but you decide to stick with 1st -archer/ 2nd -mage, so you use your relocating items to relocate a few points from warrior which you don't really need that much to become much better at your chosen skills.
At the end when you reached an extreme, advanced enough in one or two orientations (Warrior, archer, mage) you would be given an spectacular ability like you said.
In class based system you are forced to choose without knowing how your play style will be forced to be, while in a WELL MADE skill based system you can choose what to be overtime as you experiment.
So yeah I agree with you, its all thanks to poor game design from the developers, an MMO should be made thinking about the crucial features from the start instead of your typical target and attack MMO template (wow, RoM, Allods and probably many more I haven't bothered with).