"Hand holding" inarguably makes games more fun to a broader audience. Hand holding doesn't prevent a game from having deep, interesting gameplay. It merely teaches players how to enjoy the game. But I really don't expect your typical "OMG usability is terrible" gamer to understand this without seeing usability studies occur firsthand, and the night-and-day difference in game enjoyability that it effects upon a game.
In terms of crafting i'm pretty sure it will be a bland boring system if you have "hand holding". What's the fun in a crafting system where the game tells you exactly what to do? Mix and match is the best way to do it
Nowhere did I say "all game systems are perfect."
A bad crafting system is a bad crafting system, and no amount of usability (or lack thereof) will change the fact that it'll always be shallow.
The right amount of handholding is to equip players with the knowledge of how to use the tools they're given. If crafting is a simple "get the mats and hit create" process with no variance, then little handholding is needed (although you still need enough so that non-gamers can learn how to enjoy the game.)
Basically you shouldn't need to be a rocket surgeon to enjoy a game, even if you might need to be a rocket surgeon to perform flawlessly. "Minute to learn, lifetime to master" as the saying goes. Good usability, with good game depth.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The hand-holding will not stop. Eventually it will get to the point where characters no longer need arms or legs, where the dungeon comes to you,and where everyone automatically gets equal duplicate drops of any treasure.
not sure if someone posted it before just had to post a reply to this :P. actually that already has arived for the msot part :P
WoW dungeon finding system. u can now stand in the main city. que for the system. get slammed into a random dungeon with random people of random servers:P and do that dungeon wich afterwards you can port out of and be back in the main city. you have not moved an inch. but you have loots. and you are at the place where evryone else is..
"Hand holding" inarguably makes games more fun to a broader audience. Hand holding doesn't prevent a game from having deep, interesting gameplay. It merely teaches players how to enjoy the game. But I really don't expect your typical "OMG usability is terrible" gamer to understand this without seeing usability studies occur firsthand, and the night-and-day difference in game enjoyability that it effects upon a game.
In terms of crafting i'm pretty sure it will be a bland boring system if you have "hand holding". What's the fun in a crafting system where the game tells you exactly what to do? Mix and match is the best way to do it
Nowhere did I say "all game systems are perfect."
A bad crafting system is a bad crafting system, and no amount of usability (or lack thereof) will change the fact that it'll always be shallow.
The right amount of handholding is to equip players with the knowledge of how to use the tools they're given. If crafting is a simple "get the mats and hit create" process with no variance, then little handholding is needed (although you still need enough so that non-gamers can learn how to enjoy the game.)
Basically you shouldn't need to be a rocket surgeon to enjoy a game, even if you might need to be a rocket surgeon to perform flawlessly. "Minute to learn, lifetime to master" as the saying goes. Good usability, with good game depth.
Usability has nothing to do with "hand-holding" though. Usability defines how well the system itself works, not much help you get using it.
The best mmo would be a Hybrid with a virtually endless crafting system where pretty much anything can be mixed up, and no information on the different "ingredients" given to the players. It should be all about exploring and "feeling" the system. Inevitably communities will be documenting these things themselves, and that's what makes a community great!
The hand-holding will not stop. Eventually it will get to the point where characters no longer need arms or legs, where the dungeon comes to you,and where everyone automatically gets equal duplicate drops of any treasure.
not sure if someone posted it before just had to post a reply to this :P. actually that already has arived for the msot part :P
WoW dungeon finding system. u can now stand in the main city. que for the system. get slammed into a random dungeon with random people of random servers:P and do that dungeon wich afterwards you can port out of and be back in the main city. you have not moved an inch. but you have loots. and you are at the place where evryone else is..
and i tough summoning stones where lazy...
May God save us!
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
The hand-holding will not stop. Eventually it will get to the point where characters no longer need arms or legs, where the dungeon comes to you,and where everyone automatically gets equal duplicate drops of any treasure.
Silence!!! Blizzard already brought dungeons to the players, if they see the part about equal/duplicate drops i see the apocalypse of gaming.
"Hand holding" inarguably makes games more fun to a broader audience. Hand holding doesn't prevent a game from having deep, interesting gameplay. It merely teaches players how to enjoy the game. But I really don't expect your typical "OMG usability is terrible" gamer to understand this without seeing usability studies occur firsthand, and the night-and-day difference in game enjoyability that it effects upon a game.
In terms of crafting i'm pretty sure it will be a bland boring system if you have "hand holding". What's the fun in a crafting system where the game tells you exactly what to do? Mix and match is the best way to do it
Nowhere did I say "all game systems are perfect."
A bad crafting system is a bad crafting system, and no amount of usability (or lack thereof) will change the fact that it'll always be shallow.
The right amount of handholding is to equip players with the knowledge of how to use the tools they're given. If crafting is a simple "get the mats and hit create" process with no variance, then little handholding is needed (although you still need enough so that non-gamers can learn how to enjoy the game.)
Basically you shouldn't need to be a rocket surgeon to enjoy a game, even if you might need to be a rocket surgeon to perform flawlessly. "Minute to learn, lifetime to master" as the saying goes. Good usability, with good game depth.
Usability has nothing to do with "hand-holding" though. Usability defines how well the system itself works, not much help you get using it.
The best mmo would be a Hybrid with a virtually endless crafting system where pretty much anything can be mixed up, and no information on the different "ingredients" given to the players. It should be all about exploring and "feeling" the system. Inevitably communities will be documenting these things themselves, and that's what makes a community great!
Well, "Usability is a term used to denote the ease with which people can employ a particular tool or other human-made object in order to achieve a particular goal."
What directly improves the ease with which people play games? Tutorials and similar features (as well as efficient design.) Tutorials are considered "hand-holding" by quite a few gamers (certainly the types of gamers who would make a thread like this.)
Basically: Lack of knowledge about a game is an obstacle to the enjoyment of that game, and tutorials remove that obstacle. Enjoyment is the goal and tutorials improve the ability of gamers to achieve that goal.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Heh, this topic brings me back to my very first day in an MMOG. I had rolled a erudite mage in EQ1, and you started in this really dark and dense forest.
I met some folks... none of us had any clue on what to do. We died a lot. I got killed by a skunk for god's sake. lol
Back then, it was great fun. Those folks I met that day were friends throughout my EQ life. It was quite an experience.
But, that sort of thing would not appeal any longer. It was new and fresh and unlike anything we'd ever seen. It was Evercrack.
Then I finally made it to Qeynos somehow. OMG... I can see the effen sun!!!
However, I think it's one of those "you can never go home" things. I highly doubt that I would enjoy EQ1 even as it was before expenasion ruin any longer, even though there are aspects of modern mmogs that I don't personally enjoy like fast travel and quest givers being clearly marked. I know many won't believe me, but even riding on a ship was an experience. You met new people, saw some great role play and listened to tales of adventure.
I just have to accept the fact that I'm no longer in the "target market".
Theres a big difference between wanting the player to experience the intended core gameplay, and wasting the players time and causing frustration by not including some instructions/tutorial or providing an intuitive menu system to access the abilities.
Would you buy a car if it meant that you had to do something ridiculous (like have a Masters Degree in Mechanical Engineering) first? No. Because after all, its got no reference to what is defined as the intended activity.
Granted, depending on ones own definition of the term "hand holding" there can be a grey area which includes travel times etc. But that's not the fault of the players, that's more like a lack of encouragement to travel provided by the devs when they implement large areas.
Would you buy a car if it meant that you had to do something ridiculous (like have a Masters Degree in Mechanical Engineering) first? No. Because after all, its got no reference to what is defined as the intended activity.
Making real life comparisons rarely makes for a good point.. But Ill ask you what would be more interesting and exciting. having someone teach you everything about how to drive a car in a safe and responsible manner, or to learn by yourself with trial and error?
Of course in real life you might end up hurting yourself or others, but if you couldnt really die it would sure be a lot more fun just to experiment.
Heh, this topic brings me back to my very first day in an MMOG. I had rolled a erudite mage in EQ1, and you started in this really dark and dense forest. I met some folks... none of us had any clue on what to do. We died a lot. I got killed by a skunk for god's sake. lol Back then, it was great fun. Those folks I met that day were friends throughout my EQ life. It was quite an experience. But, that sort of thing would not appeal any longer. It was new and fresh and unlike anything we'd ever seen. It was Evercrack. Then I finally made it to Qeynos somehow. OMG... I can see the effen sun!!! However, I think it's one of those "you can never go home" things. I highly doubt that I would enjoy EQ1 even as it was before expenasion ruin any longer, even though there are aspects of modern mmogs that I don't personally enjoy like fast travel and quest givers being clearly marked. I know many won't believe me, but even riding on a ship was an experience. You met new people, saw some great role play and listened to tales of adventure. I just have to accept the fact that I'm no longer in the "target market".
I think you can "go home" to that sort of gamplay, Eve is proof of that. Heck, Shadowbane was, Darkfal, and Mortal Online. There are folks who like the challenge and risk and reward experiences.
And, better yet, "target markets" can move or change. The 11M WOW players will someday tire of all the spoon-feeding and will rip off the bib and demand more challenge in their gaming. I know a lot of folks who play WOW because it is polished, and few who are not getting a bit bored by now.
Well said OP. I wish it would stop too, but I don't see the end in sight. I think the market is designed for casual gamers with short attention spans. Just think, a game like DAoC, EQ, or UO would never make it now. I say this because kids today would quit so quickly due to what I believe is a shorter attention spans due to the advances in technology and gaming. I don't see people taking the time to figure out the ins and outs of a game anymore on their own, I think they want their hand held and everything explained from the get go.
Keep crying, Im sure someone out there cares. Typical WoW nerd trolling for the lols.
There are around 310k EvE players who would probably sympathise with the OP as it is one 'sandbox' game out there that probably comes close to what he is after.
EVE's starting tutorials are pretty much the same level of complexity and 'hand holding' as WoW's. Actually, when returning to EVE and starting a new character I was fairly annoyed that they did not have a tutorial on 'how to skip the tutorial' while in WoW I can easily just skip a starting area if I know what I am doing.
Keep crying, Im sure someone out there cares. Typical WoW nerd trolling for the lols.
There are around 310k EvE players who would probably sympathise with the OP as it is one 'sandbox' game out there that probably comes close to what he is after.
EVE's starting tutorials are pretty much the same level of complexity and 'hand holding' as WoW's. Actually, when returning to EVE and starting a new character I was fairly annoyed that they did not have a tutorial on 'how to skip the tutorial' while in WoW I can easily just skip a starting area if I know what I am doing.
huh? You just turn the talking computer (Aura) off.
Click the X in the top corner of her window and she's gone forever.
Oh and imo hand holding is not a tutorial its leading someone around the game after you learn to play like a monkey.
Eve gives you 5 tutorials (that are optional) and says go.
People who say a tutorial explaining basic mechanics is hand holding are dumb imo.
Keep crying, Im sure someone out there cares. Typical WoW nerd trolling for the lols.
There are around 310k EvE players who would probably sympathise with the OP as it is one 'sandbox' game out there that probably comes close to what he is after.
EVE's starting tutorials are pretty much the same level of complexity and 'hand holding' as WoW's. Actually, when returning to EVE and starting a new character I was fairly annoyed that they did not have a tutorial on 'how to skip the tutorial' while in WoW I can easily just skip a starting area if I know what I am doing.
huh? You just turn the talking computer (Aura) off.
Click the X in the top corner of her window and she's gone forever.
Oh and imo hand holding is not a tutorial its leading someone around the game after you learn to play like a monkey.
Eve gives you 5 tutorials (that are optional) and says go.
People who say a tutorial explaining basic mechanics is hand holding are dumb imo.
I call that good design.
Well, it must have glitched out on me then when I did it last year since it would come back every time I logged into the game. Probably a problem with the interface there.
The level 'of hand holding' is often really subjective and depends on how experieced with MMORPGs a player is. Personally, I found the level of 'hand holding' in WoW to be minimal since it made obvious sense where I could and should go. Now, if you consider the bread-crumbs quests to be hand holding then you are just grasping at straws.
I will however, acknowledge that to someone with little MMORPG experience, things in WoW might seem to 'straitjacket' you into a single path (and they tend to actually do that at endgame).
Keep crying, Im sure someone out there cares. Typical WoW nerd trolling for the lols.
There are around 310k EvE players who would probably sympathise with the OP as it is one 'sandbox' game out there that probably comes close to what he is after.
EVE's starting tutorials are pretty much the same level of complexity and 'hand holding' as WoW's. Actually, when returning to EVE and starting a new character I was fairly annoyed that they did not have a tutorial on 'how to skip the tutorial' while in WoW I can easily just skip a starting area if I know what I am doing.
huh? You just turn the talking computer (Aura) off.
Click the X in the top corner of her window and she's gone forever.
Oh and imo hand holding is not a tutorial its leading someone around the game after you learn to play like a monkey.
Eve gives you 5 tutorials (that are optional) and says go.
People who say a tutorial explaining basic mechanics is hand holding are dumb imo.
I call that good design.
Well, it must have glitched out on me then when I did it last year since it would come back every time I logged into the game. Probably a problem with the interface there.
The level 'of hand holding' is often really subjective and depends on how experieced with MMORPGs a player is. Personally, I found the level of 'hand holding' in WoW to be minimal since it made obvious sense where I could and should go. Now, if you consider the bread-crumbs quests to be hand holding then you are just grasping at straws.
yeah when you close out the eve tutorial it asks if you want it to start up next time and most people just quickly click yes, no biggie.
You maybe right with the whole subjective handholding thing. I've been playing MMos since 97 and after a while you get tired of quests leading you from zone to zone. I'm sure a player who hasen't played mmos to death like i have would find it ok.
Unfortunately I don't think it's going to stop any time soon. I'm honestly starting to think that the next "evolution" in mmorpgs is going to be the inclusion of NPC henchmen who will literally lead our characters around, kill the mobs for them, dress them, wipe their asses, give them a hug if they are sad, and all we will have to do is sit back and watch or turn the game on and go watch TV.
The level 'of hand holding' is often really subjective and depends on how experieced with MMORPGs a player is. Personally, I found the level of 'hand holding' in WoW to be minimal since it made obvious sense where I could and should go. Now, if you consider the bread-crumbs quests to be hand holding then you are just grasping at straws. I will however, acknowledge that to someone with little MMORPG experience, things in WoW might seem to 'straitjacket' you into a single path (and they tend to actually do that at endgame).
Well, a lot of us old-timers grew up on grinding games like EQ. No tutorial and you began where you needed to be.
When you moved prematurely to a new zone and got smoked in one shot, that was all the tutorial that you needed to tell you that you weren't ready to be there yet.
I remember when I first started playing daoc, i was level 8 or so killing water beatles outside of Ardee and i saw a ghost like looking mob across the river. I said man those mobs are so close to these low level mobs I bet they are only a little bit higher level. Went over and immediately got 1 shot, turns out they were level 35 mobs.
The pure randomness of the world made it feel so real.
East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011 -------------------- Current game: DAOC
Games played and quit: L2, PlanetSide, RF Online, GuildWars, SWG, COH/COV, Vanguard, LOTRO, WoW, WW2 Online, FFXI, Auto-Assault, EVE Online, ShadowBane, RYL, Rappelz, Last Chaos, Myst Online, POTBS, EQ2, Warhammer Online, AoC, Aion, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Allods, Darkfall.
The level 'of hand holding' is often really subjective and depends on how experieced with MMORPGs a player is. Personally, I found the level of 'hand holding' in WoW to be minimal since it made obvious sense where I could and should go. Now, if you consider the bread-crumbs quests to be hand holding then you are just grasping at straws. I will however, acknowledge that to someone with little MMORPG experience, things in WoW might seem to 'straitjacket' you into a single path (and they tend to actually do that at endgame).
Well, a lot of us old-timers grew up on grinding games like EQ. No tutorial and you began where you needed to be.
When you moved prematurely to a new zone and got smoked in one shot, that was all the tutorial that you needed to tell you that you weren't ready to be there yet.
That was great. I always chuckled at how they placed Kithicor forest (with it's low level mobs by day, high level undead spawns at night) right next to Rivervale, the Halfling starter zone. Must have been hilarious the first time some low level Halflings learned the hard way that you do not stick around in Kithicor once the sun goes down.
The level 'of hand holding' is often really subjective and depends on how experieced with MMORPGs a player is. Personally, I found the level of 'hand holding' in WoW to be minimal since it made obvious sense where I could and should go. Now, if you consider the bread-crumbs quests to be hand holding then you are just grasping at straws. I will however, acknowledge that to someone with little MMORPG experience, things in WoW might seem to 'straitjacket' you into a single path (and they tend to actually do that at endgame).
Well, a lot of us old-timers grew up on grinding games like EQ. No tutorial and you began where you needed to be.
When you moved prematurely to a new zone and got smoked in one shot, that was all the tutorial that you needed to tell you that you weren't ready to be there yet.
There seems to be some extreme views on what constitutes "hand holding". In my opinion, tutorials do not qualify. In most games you can turn them off anyways. There's nothing wrong with explaining to the player how the game works. Not all games are simple enough where it's even possible to teach yourself without somebody else helping or an instruction manual (e.g. chess). If the biggest hurdle in a game is figuring out the rules then something seriously went wrong in the design phase. A game that has any depth has plenty of nuances that players can discover for themselves so they don't feel like they being spoon fed the whole game.
A good UI is not hand holding either. Burying commonly used actions four sub-menus deep does not make the game difficult, only annoying. On the other hand I do agree with those who dislike the arrows guiding them to where they have to go next or putting big stars over NPC's heads showing they want to talk to you. It always bothered me when a NPC tells you he lost something and wants you to find it then the game goes ahead and shows you precisely where it is located. To me, that is hand holding.
The OP mentions zones being hand holding, I don't completely agree with that. The starter areas are good for FFA PvP games so that new players can learn the basics first before getting slaughtered. I don't like the artificial boundaries between areas either, it only makes travel take longer. Depending on the zones are organized and how they interconnect it can make things very linear which isn't much fun either and you could make an argument for hand holding there.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
I started out with MMO's on MUDS then from there to Everquest. I loved Everquest because it had a level of difficulty. Traveling from Freeport to Qeynos for the first time and finally making it after the umpteenth time was very exhilarating experience. And yes I even liked the death penalties. It felt like I accomplished something after failing so many times before. I played Everquest for about 4 years. At that time I was single and had all the time in the world to play games.
Then comes marriage and a family, I had to move onto another game and it was WoW. I had less time but WoW was made to do more in less and I had a blast. I could level or do 5 mans in an hour with friends and still have my family time. I thought Blizzard found the right equation for my new playstyle. But in the back of my mind I knew it was too easy. I accomplished things but didn't feel as excited about it as I did with EQ.
Now 3 years after playing WoW and many other MMO's out there I have come back to wanting a harder play style and it not to be easy. The thing I have noticed is that even when playing EQ the hand holding was there but it came from the community in form of Websites and UI Mods, of course you didn't have to go to those sites or use the Mods. So now gaming companies have just taken it to the next step and put all the answers in the game itself. And most games have a way to turn off the Arrows and highlights and turtorials. But nothing has captured my excitment like the earlier games and that is what I am looking for now. A more risk for the reward.
Played: UO, EQ , EQ2, Wow, Shadowbane, DAOC, Vanguard, Earth & Beyond, Guild Wars, Star Wars Galaxy, City of Heroes, City of Villians, Champions, Auto Assualt, Tablu Rasa, Warhammer Online, Age of Conan and many Korean grinders
Immersion is taking a back seat to short attention spans. Insta-teleport between locations/dungeons, insta-skills/level ups, etc.. will be coming. Were you logged in with your character for at least 8 hours total? Great news, you get to choose from:
1. Best item at your level.
2. Free level up.
3. XXX amount of gold.
Thanks for playing!
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Comments
In terms of crafting i'm pretty sure it will be a bland boring system if you have "hand holding". What's the fun in a crafting system where the game tells you exactly what to do? Mix and match is the best way to do it
Nowhere did I say "all game systems are perfect."
A bad crafting system is a bad crafting system, and no amount of usability (or lack thereof) will change the fact that it'll always be shallow.
The right amount of handholding is to equip players with the knowledge of how to use the tools they're given. If crafting is a simple "get the mats and hit create" process with no variance, then little handholding is needed (although you still need enough so that non-gamers can learn how to enjoy the game.)
Basically you shouldn't need to be a rocket surgeon to enjoy a game, even if you might need to be a rocket surgeon to perform flawlessly. "Minute to learn, lifetime to master" as the saying goes. Good usability, with good game depth.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
not sure if someone posted it before just had to post a reply to this :P. actually that already has arived for the msot part :P
WoW dungeon finding system. u can now stand in the main city. que for the system. get slammed into a random dungeon with random people of random servers:P and do that dungeon wich afterwards you can port out of and be back in the main city. you have not moved an inch. but you have loots. and you are at the place where evryone else is..
and i tough summoning stones where lazy...
In terms of crafting i'm pretty sure it will be a bland boring system if you have "hand holding". What's the fun in a crafting system where the game tells you exactly what to do? Mix and match is the best way to do it
Nowhere did I say "all game systems are perfect."
A bad crafting system is a bad crafting system, and no amount of usability (or lack thereof) will change the fact that it'll always be shallow.
The right amount of handholding is to equip players with the knowledge of how to use the tools they're given. If crafting is a simple "get the mats and hit create" process with no variance, then little handholding is needed (although you still need enough so that non-gamers can learn how to enjoy the game.)
Basically you shouldn't need to be a rocket surgeon to enjoy a game, even if you might need to be a rocket surgeon to perform flawlessly. "Minute to learn, lifetime to master" as the saying goes. Good usability, with good game depth.
Usability has nothing to do with "hand-holding" though. Usability defines how well the system itself works, not much help you get using it.
The best mmo would be a Hybrid with a virtually endless crafting system where pretty much anything can be mixed up, and no information on the different "ingredients" given to the players. It should be all about exploring and "feeling" the system. Inevitably communities will be documenting these things themselves, and that's what makes a community great!
not sure if someone posted it before just had to post a reply to this :P. actually that already has arived for the msot part :P
WoW dungeon finding system. u can now stand in the main city. que for the system. get slammed into a random dungeon with random people of random servers:P and do that dungeon wich afterwards you can port out of and be back in the main city. you have not moved an inch. but you have loots. and you are at the place where evryone else is..
and i tough summoning stones where lazy...
May God save us!
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
Silence!!! Blizzard already brought dungeons to the players, if they see the part about equal/duplicate drops i see the apocalypse of gaming.
In terms of crafting i'm pretty sure it will be a bland boring system if you have "hand holding". What's the fun in a crafting system where the game tells you exactly what to do? Mix and match is the best way to do it
Nowhere did I say "all game systems are perfect."
A bad crafting system is a bad crafting system, and no amount of usability (or lack thereof) will change the fact that it'll always be shallow.
The right amount of handholding is to equip players with the knowledge of how to use the tools they're given. If crafting is a simple "get the mats and hit create" process with no variance, then little handholding is needed (although you still need enough so that non-gamers can learn how to enjoy the game.)
Basically you shouldn't need to be a rocket surgeon to enjoy a game, even if you might need to be a rocket surgeon to perform flawlessly. "Minute to learn, lifetime to master" as the saying goes. Good usability, with good game depth.
Usability has nothing to do with "hand-holding" though. Usability defines how well the system itself works, not much help you get using it.
The best mmo would be a Hybrid with a virtually endless crafting system where pretty much anything can be mixed up, and no information on the different "ingredients" given to the players. It should be all about exploring and "feeling" the system. Inevitably communities will be documenting these things themselves, and that's what makes a community great!
Well, "Usability is a term used to denote the ease with which people can employ a particular tool or other human-made object in order to achieve a particular goal."
What directly improves the ease with which people play games? Tutorials and similar features (as well as efficient design.) Tutorials are considered "hand-holding" by quite a few gamers (certainly the types of gamers who would make a thread like this.)
Basically: Lack of knowledge about a game is an obstacle to the enjoyment of that game, and tutorials remove that obstacle. Enjoyment is the goal and tutorials improve the ability of gamers to achieve that goal.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Heh, this topic brings me back to my very first day in an MMOG. I had rolled a erudite mage in EQ1, and you started in this really dark and dense forest.
I met some folks... none of us had any clue on what to do. We died a lot. I got killed by a skunk for god's sake. lol
Back then, it was great fun. Those folks I met that day were friends throughout my EQ life. It was quite an experience.
But, that sort of thing would not appeal any longer. It was new and fresh and unlike anything we'd ever seen. It was Evercrack.
Then I finally made it to Qeynos somehow. OMG... I can see the effen sun!!!
However, I think it's one of those "you can never go home" things. I highly doubt that I would enjoy EQ1 even as it was before expenasion ruin any longer, even though there are aspects of modern mmogs that I don't personally enjoy like fast travel and quest givers being clearly marked. I know many won't believe me, but even riding on a ship was an experience. You met new people, saw some great role play and listened to tales of adventure.
I just have to accept the fact that I'm no longer in the "target market".
Theres a big difference between wanting the player to experience the intended core gameplay, and wasting the players time and causing frustration by not including some instructions/tutorial or providing an intuitive menu system to access the abilities.
Would you buy a car if it meant that you had to do something ridiculous (like have a Masters Degree in Mechanical Engineering) first? No. Because after all, its got no reference to what is defined as the intended activity.
Granted, depending on ones own definition of the term "hand holding" there can be a grey area which includes travel times etc. But that's not the fault of the players, that's more like a lack of encouragement to travel provided by the devs when they implement large areas.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Making real life comparisons rarely makes for a good point.. But Ill ask you what would be more interesting and exciting. having someone teach you everything about how to drive a car in a safe and responsible manner, or to learn by yourself with trial and error?
Of course in real life you might end up hurting yourself or others, but if you couldnt really die it would sure be a lot more fun just to experiment.
I think you can "go home" to that sort of gamplay, Eve is proof of that. Heck, Shadowbane was, Darkfal, and Mortal Online. There are folks who like the challenge and risk and reward experiences.
And, better yet, "target markets" can move or change. The 11M WOW players will someday tire of all the spoon-feeding and will rip off the bib and demand more challenge in their gaming. I know a lot of folks who play WOW because it is polished, and few who are not getting a bit bored by now.
Well said OP. I wish it would stop too, but I don't see the end in sight. I think the market is designed for casual gamers with short attention spans. Just think, a game like DAoC, EQ, or UO would never make it now. I say this because kids today would quit so quickly due to what I believe is a shorter attention spans due to the advances in technology and gaming. I don't see people taking the time to figure out the ins and outs of a game anymore on their own, I think they want their hand held and everything explained from the get go.
The more people a company can reach out to the more money they make. Thats the idea. Games are a hobby that should not have a steep learning curve.
There are around 310k EvE players who would probably sympathise with the OP as it is one 'sandbox' game out there that probably comes close to what he is after.
EVE's starting tutorials are pretty much the same level of complexity and 'hand holding' as WoW's. Actually, when returning to EVE and starting a new character I was fairly annoyed that they did not have a tutorial on 'how to skip the tutorial' while in WoW I can easily just skip a starting area if I know what I am doing.
There are around 310k EvE players who would probably sympathise with the OP as it is one 'sandbox' game out there that probably comes close to what he is after.
EVE's starting tutorials are pretty much the same level of complexity and 'hand holding' as WoW's. Actually, when returning to EVE and starting a new character I was fairly annoyed that they did not have a tutorial on 'how to skip the tutorial' while in WoW I can easily just skip a starting area if I know what I am doing.
huh? You just turn the talking computer (Aura) off.
Click the X in the top corner of her window and she's gone forever.
Oh and imo hand holding is not a tutorial its leading someone around the game after you learn to play like a monkey.
Eve gives you 5 tutorials (that are optional) and says go.
People who say a tutorial explaining basic mechanics is hand holding are dumb imo.
I call that good design.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
There are around 310k EvE players who would probably sympathise with the OP as it is one 'sandbox' game out there that probably comes close to what he is after.
EVE's starting tutorials are pretty much the same level of complexity and 'hand holding' as WoW's. Actually, when returning to EVE and starting a new character I was fairly annoyed that they did not have a tutorial on 'how to skip the tutorial' while in WoW I can easily just skip a starting area if I know what I am doing.
huh? You just turn the talking computer (Aura) off.
Click the X in the top corner of her window and she's gone forever.
Oh and imo hand holding is not a tutorial its leading someone around the game after you learn to play like a monkey.
Eve gives you 5 tutorials (that are optional) and says go.
People who say a tutorial explaining basic mechanics is hand holding are dumb imo.
I call that good design.
Well, it must have glitched out on me then when I did it last year since it would come back every time I logged into the game. Probably a problem with the interface there.
The level 'of hand holding' is often really subjective and depends on how experieced with MMORPGs a player is. Personally, I found the level of 'hand holding' in WoW to be minimal since it made obvious sense where I could and should go. Now, if you consider the bread-crumbs quests to be hand holding then you are just grasping at straws.
I will however, acknowledge that to someone with little MMORPG experience, things in WoW might seem to 'straitjacket' you into a single path (and they tend to actually do that at endgame).
There are around 310k EvE players who would probably sympathise with the OP as it is one 'sandbox' game out there that probably comes close to what he is after.
EVE's starting tutorials are pretty much the same level of complexity and 'hand holding' as WoW's. Actually, when returning to EVE and starting a new character I was fairly annoyed that they did not have a tutorial on 'how to skip the tutorial' while in WoW I can easily just skip a starting area if I know what I am doing.
huh? You just turn the talking computer (Aura) off.
Click the X in the top corner of her window and she's gone forever.
Oh and imo hand holding is not a tutorial its leading someone around the game after you learn to play like a monkey.
Eve gives you 5 tutorials (that are optional) and says go.
People who say a tutorial explaining basic mechanics is hand holding are dumb imo.
I call that good design.
Well, it must have glitched out on me then when I did it last year since it would come back every time I logged into the game. Probably a problem with the interface there.
The level 'of hand holding' is often really subjective and depends on how experieced with MMORPGs a player is. Personally, I found the level of 'hand holding' in WoW to be minimal since it made obvious sense where I could and should go. Now, if you consider the bread-crumbs quests to be hand holding then you are just grasping at straws.
yeah when you close out the eve tutorial it asks if you want it to start up next time and most people just quickly click yes, no biggie.
You maybe right with the whole subjective handholding thing. I've been playing MMos since 97 and after a while you get tired of quests leading you from zone to zone. I'm sure a player who hasen't played mmos to death like i have would find it ok.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Unfortunately I don't think it's going to stop any time soon. I'm honestly starting to think that the next "evolution" in mmorpgs is going to be the inclusion of NPC henchmen who will literally lead our characters around, kill the mobs for them, dress them, wipe their asses, give them a hug if they are sad, and all we will have to do is sit back and watch or turn the game on and go watch TV.
Well, a lot of us old-timers grew up on grinding games like EQ. No tutorial and you began where you needed to be.
When you moved prematurely to a new zone and got smoked in one shot, that was all the tutorial that you needed to tell you that you weren't ready to be there yet.
The hand holding has already stopped its called sandbox games clear back to ultima online.
I remember when I first started playing daoc, i was level 8 or so killing water beatles outside of Ardee and i saw a ghost like looking mob across the river. I said man those mobs are so close to these low level mobs I bet they are only a little bit higher level. Went over and immediately got 1 shot, turns out they were level 35 mobs.
The pure randomness of the world made it feel so real.
East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011
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Current game: DAOC
Games played and quit: L2, PlanetSide, RF Online, GuildWars, SWG, COH/COV, Vanguard, LOTRO, WoW, WW2 Online, FFXI, Auto-Assault, EVE Online, ShadowBane, RYL, Rappelz, Last Chaos, Myst Online, POTBS, EQ2, Warhammer Online, AoC, Aion, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Allods, Darkfall.
Waiting on: Earthrise
Names: Citio, Goldie, Sportacus
Well, a lot of us old-timers grew up on grinding games like EQ. No tutorial and you began where you needed to be.
When you moved prematurely to a new zone and got smoked in one shot, that was all the tutorial that you needed to tell you that you weren't ready to be there yet.
That was great. I always chuckled at how they placed Kithicor forest (with it's low level mobs by day, high level undead spawns at night) right next to Rivervale, the Halfling starter zone. Must have been hilarious the first time some low level Halflings learned the hard way that you do not stick around in Kithicor once the sun goes down.
Well, a lot of us old-timers grew up on grinding games like EQ. No tutorial and you began where you needed to be.
When you moved prematurely to a new zone and got smoked in one shot, that was all the tutorial that you needed to tell you that you weren't ready to be there yet.
Pretty much the same thing happens in WoW.
There seems to be some extreme views on what constitutes "hand holding". In my opinion, tutorials do not qualify. In most games you can turn them off anyways. There's nothing wrong with explaining to the player how the game works. Not all games are simple enough where it's even possible to teach yourself without somebody else helping or an instruction manual (e.g. chess). If the biggest hurdle in a game is figuring out the rules then something seriously went wrong in the design phase. A game that has any depth has plenty of nuances that players can discover for themselves so they don't feel like they being spoon fed the whole game.
A good UI is not hand holding either. Burying commonly used actions four sub-menus deep does not make the game difficult, only annoying. On the other hand I do agree with those who dislike the arrows guiding them to where they have to go next or putting big stars over NPC's heads showing they want to talk to you. It always bothered me when a NPC tells you he lost something and wants you to find it then the game goes ahead and shows you precisely where it is located. To me, that is hand holding.
The OP mentions zones being hand holding, I don't completely agree with that. The starter areas are good for FFA PvP games so that new players can learn the basics first before getting slaughtered. I don't like the artificial boundaries between areas either, it only makes travel take longer. Depending on the zones are organized and how they interconnect it can make things very linear which isn't much fun either and you could make an argument for hand holding there.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
I started out with MMO's on MUDS then from there to Everquest. I loved Everquest because it had a level of difficulty. Traveling from Freeport to Qeynos for the first time and finally making it after the umpteenth time was very exhilarating experience. And yes I even liked the death penalties. It felt like I accomplished something after failing so many times before. I played Everquest for about 4 years. At that time I was single and had all the time in the world to play games.
Then comes marriage and a family, I had to move onto another game and it was WoW. I had less time but WoW was made to do more in less and I had a blast. I could level or do 5 mans in an hour with friends and still have my family time. I thought Blizzard found the right equation for my new playstyle. But in the back of my mind I knew it was too easy. I accomplished things but didn't feel as excited about it as I did with EQ.
Now 3 years after playing WoW and many other MMO's out there I have come back to wanting a harder play style and it not to be easy. The thing I have noticed is that even when playing EQ the hand holding was there but it came from the community in form of Websites and UI Mods, of course you didn't have to go to those sites or use the Mods. So now gaming companies have just taken it to the next step and put all the answers in the game itself. And most games have a way to turn off the Arrows and highlights and turtorials. But nothing has captured my excitment like the earlier games and that is what I am looking for now. A more risk for the reward.
Played: UO, EQ , EQ2, Wow, Shadowbane, DAOC, Vanguard, Earth & Beyond, Guild Wars, Star Wars Galaxy, City of Heroes, City of Villians, Champions, Auto Assualt, Tablu Rasa, Warhammer Online, Age of Conan and many Korean grinders
Playing Now: Nothing
Immersion is taking a back seat to short attention spans. Insta-teleport between locations/dungeons, insta-skills/level ups, etc.. will be coming. Were you logged in with your character for at least 8 hours total? Great news, you get to choose from:
1. Best item at your level.
2. Free level up.
3. XXX amount of gold.
Thanks for playing!
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!