Customer service is a company's largest expense after launch. Blame customer service. In original WoW, quest items that you had to search for didn't have sparklies or big arrows pointing at them. Now they do. Why? To cut down on customer service tickets. All games are following this trend from what I've seen.
Wait... so you're saying that people were sending in complaints because they were unable to find quest items, and that's why they added sparklies to them?
As in, "I couldn't find this quest item and it can't be that I'm not looking hard enough, or perhaps not following the quest dialog that tells me where to look (reading is for n00bs lol)... It must be something wrong with the game, so fix it. I don't care that others are finding the items just fine. I can't, so it's a problem".
Seriously?
If that's so, then people are even more lazy and spoiled than I thought.
Welcome to our Brave New World, where everyone is entitled to be exceptional and no-one is ever to blame.
yeah I think we're at an age now where tutorials can safely leave out "this is how to move" "this is how to set a hotkey" "this is how to target" "this is your health and mana bar".
"Hand holding" inarguably makes games more fun to a broader audience. Hand holding doesn't prevent a game from having deep, interesting gameplay. It merely teaches players how to enjoy the game. But I really don't expect your typical "OMG usability is terrible" gamer to understand this without seeing usability studies occur firsthand, and the night-and-day difference in game enjoyability that it effects upon a game.
In terms of crafting i'm pretty sure it will be a bland boring system if you have "hand holding". What's the fun in a crafting system where the game tells you exactly what to do? Mix and match is the best way to do it
Nowhere did I say "all game systems are perfect."
A bad crafting system is a bad crafting system, and no amount of usability (or lack thereof) will change the fact that it'll always be shallow.
The right amount of handholding is to equip players with the knowledge of how to use the tools they're given. If crafting is a simple "get the mats and hit create" process with no variance, then little handholding is needed (although you still need enough so that non-gamers can learn how to enjoy the game.)
Basically you shouldn't need to be a rocket surgeon to enjoy a game, even if you might need to be a rocket surgeon to perform flawlessly. "Minute to learn, lifetime to master" as the saying goes. Good usability, with good game depth.
The sad part is, it's to the point where people even find the "lifetime to master" part to be "unfair" and "discriminating against casual gamers and people who don't live in their parents' basement". Hell, if it's a "week to master", they're bitching about it. It's more to the point now of "I'm brand-new to this game and just created my first character and been playing an hour... how come I'm not level 10 yet? This game is too hard"
What's also sad - and this can be witnessed everywhere, not just in games, and especially in Western culture - is that people are becoming lazier and lazier and more and more "entitled" to have whatever they want handed to them without effort.
We've turned into a society of lazy, spoiled, entitled brats who cry "UNFAIR!" and look for someone or something else to blame for our own failures or lack of motivation the moment something doesn't go our way. No wonder other countries laugh at us.
Anyway.... /rant over.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Customer service is a company's largest expense after launch. Blame customer service. In original WoW, quest items that you had to search for didn't have sparklies or big arrows pointing at them. Now they do. Why? To cut down on customer service tickets. All games are following this trend from what I've seen.
Wait... so you're saying that people were sending in complaints because they were unable to find quest items, and that's why they added sparklies to them?
As in, "I couldn't find this quest item and it can't be that I'm not looking hard enough, or perhaps not following the quest dialog that tells me where to look... It must be something wrong with the game, so fix it. I don't care that others are finding the items just fine. I can't, so it's a problem".
Seriously?
If that's so, then people are even more lazy and spoiled than I thought.
lol nothing new here.there were add-on like quest helper but some were so baddly written or fso full of memory leak that blizzard coded their own and included it in the press m thingy so now when you press m you dont have all that clutter of add-on and see where stuff from x quest is.so all those quest helper add-onb can be removed now
but dont count your gold because blizzard cleary dont like some of the add-on that are out there because they are OP
blizzard will nerf the add-on system and remove lot of avail code because they re finding out
the cade they left in there is still way more powerfull then expected.
oh the average joe dont see those but contrary to what blizzard believed in the right hands
the coding supplied by blizzard is way too powerfull
so much in fact that blizzard will probably need to remove 50% of the stuff in there maybe more since blizzard
is very hard at work trying to find the add-on that player ARE very hard at work hidding
i dont believe blizzard will be able to see those since legal cheater dont want their hidden trick
nerfed.so blizzard might nerf add-on and all way more just to make sure they get rid of some of the trick they saw
they know its just a bunch but catching those trick is hard even for them
because technicly they do only use only the code blizzard provide but some programmer have a lot more imagination then
blizzard anticipated or learned a lot since last time blizzard nerfed that part of the game
and yes blizzard did nerf it often ,even in vanilla blizzard hard to nerf it because blizzard hadnt expected player to used to in those ways
sorry but tutorials are needed. The elitism in this thread is amazing. The only way the genre shifts from casual gamers back to hardcore is for the hardcore gamer base to grow. That happens when someone new plays a game which requires a tutorial. Im glad some of you dont need tutorials because you played every MMO that came out but not everyone has.
Who is arguing against tutorials? If a game has them, fine, but I don't want to use some stupid tutorial when I play a new MMORPG. Most new MMORPGs are going to be similar to older ones. I don't want to start out in a newb zone, be told to go do useless quests, etc.
The problem is that games tend to use tutorial-based leveling for level 1-80, it just never stops. They couldn't just stop giving bullshit quests at level 5, could they? They have to tell you where to go, what to do throughout the whole game.
And in WoW it's not like the hand-holding ever ends. You play a game where you get infinite retries on raid content, where there is no penalty for losing except a minute or two's worth of time. It just encourages horrible players to keep attempting the same raid content over and over, despite them not having any skill.
In EQ, some of the raid content would take a few hours/days for it to reset, regardless of whether the guild was successful or not. Or it would despawn if it wasn't killed within a certain amount of time (Avatar of War).
New MMOs, pathetic ones like WOW.. They just have bosses sitting around waiting to be killed anymore. Even the trash mobs were too much for the casuals to handle. So zones consist of bosses all alone waiting to be killed.. Not only that, you can basically recover really easily no matter what happens. Just another way to let lousy players clear raid content.
And the PvP content is all hand holding too, you go into protected instances, and lose nothing? How about opening up World PvP again, with a death penalty, and getting rid of the carebear Arena / Battleground system that these stupid games are using..
I enjoyed the old games like DAoC that just threw you in the middle of a mass of land. There are really no zone walls except for the one outlining the entire continent, allowing players to explore and really get immersed in what feels like a real world. Mobs do not get higher level the farther you move from where you started.
You are incorrect, I played at launch of DAOC and even tried it again recently, and as is the case in most MMORPG's MOBs DO get higher level the further you move away from where you started.
Yeah,they won't lose too much when wiping(even if retarded continuous wiping will cause repair bills worth of hours of grinding)but they'll never kill them either.
Look at WoW's world hardest encounters,they're right there and you don't lose nothing if you wipe but people still didn't manage to kill them(other than world's best 100).
Most of the "wipe penalties" are nothing more than masks of relatively easy encounters with gimmicks that are easy to figure, but will still wipe you the first times. That's not exactly hard, but the wipe penalty will give you that feeling.
I am very critical of new games, most games post WoW except Vanguard, that have the theory of starting all new players in a obvious nooby zone and holding their hands while slowly guiding them through a narrow path that leads away from the starting location. I enjoyed the old games like DAoC that just threw you in the middle of a mass of land. There are really no zone walls except for the one outlining the entire continent, allowing players to explore and really get immersed in what feels like a real world. Mobs do not get higher level the farther you move from where you started. I'm not looking to make anyone mad, if you enjoy a small learning curve, then wow is a perfect game for you. I am just upset that the only MMO after seeing WoW's success that has truly let the players explore and not set physical restrictions on where a player can go has been Vanguard. I know i only speak for a small percentage of the MMO population, but I want it the old way again.
Someone offers some hints and directions in the game and you must follow it?
Is there any mechanism in the game that stops you from bravely ignoring the game hints and march out blindly, bravely, recklessly, in full determination, to die or glory?
No. You can surely do it.
But you do not want to, you just come to rant, because you decide not to go out and explore. Instead you decided to explore here and create a thread to moan.
"Oh mom, there is a prefect in the school helping us find our way to the toilet. I can no longer explore the school any more ..."
Man, you are so off here. Most recent mmos have levels right? Just like schools have classes that stretches upwards. And can I tell you, levels are just a fucking long tutorial!
Do you think I can just create a character in wow and travel to any zone I want? Sure I can but the game is not designed that way, I could explore and enjoy the eye candy thats presented to me, but not much more. The fact is that games with levels are designed to be a long pathed tutorial. You move from one zone to the other like climbing a ladder, and trying yourself at a zone (ladder step) thats later in the tutorial you are practically stuck.
What you are saying is like "Buhu mom there are so many classes I have to take to get my degree. I can no longer just go out and work as a lawyer or what not the age of 6." Because that's how the game(s) (career) are/is designed.
Sure, at the age of six you can manage perfectly in the world, but I fucking doubt you would even get a job. In fact I think theres law against people that young working actually.
In a game like Darkfall or Eve everything is presented to you right off the bat, the world is seeming less and it doesn't matter how old your character or what skill he needs to do x or y.
Yeah,they won't lose too much when wiping(even if retarded continuous wiping will cause repair bills worth of hours of grinding)but they'll never kill them either.
Look at WoW's world hardest encounters,they're right there and you don't lose nothing if you wipe but people still didn't manage to kill them(other than world's best 100).
Most of the "wipe penalties" are nothing more than masks of relatively easy encounters with gimmicks that are easy to figure, but will still wipe you the first times. That's not exactly hard, but the wipe penalty will give you that feeling.
Some of the harder encounters need some kind of delivery power (from tanking to dps to healing) and a lot of coordination. Not everyone want to put in that much time to get there.
I enjoyed the old games like DAoC that just threw you in the middle of a mass of land. There are really no zone walls except for the one outlining the entire continent, allowing players to explore and really get immersed in what feels like a real world. Mobs do not get higher level the farther you move from where you started.
You are incorrect, I played at launch of DAOC and even tried it again recently, and as is the case in most MMORPG's MOBs DO get higher level the further you move away from where you started.
That was also the case of EQ. From the starting city gate you walk out, you find level 1s.
I enjoyed the old games like DAoC that just threw you in the middle of a mass of land. There are really no zone walls except for the one outlining the entire continent, allowing players to explore and really get immersed in what feels like a real world. Mobs do not get higher level the farther you move from where you started.
You are incorrect, I played at launch of DAOC and even tried it again recently, and as is the case in most MMORPG's MOBs DO get higher level the further you move away from where you started.
That was also the case of EQ. From the starting city gate you walk out, you find level 1s.
it seems like people's minds get erased when thinking about older MMOs. DAOC was set up just like WOW and just about every MMO out there. Around towns and cities, the mobs were low level or level appropriate for the area. The further you went out the harder they got. Nostalgia....gotta love it=)
The level 'of hand holding' is often really subjective and depends on how experieced with MMORPGs a player is. Personally, I found the level of 'hand holding' in WoW to be minimal since it made obvious sense where I could and should go. Now, if you consider the bread-crumbs quests to be hand holding then you are just grasping at straws. I will however, acknowledge that to someone with little MMORPG experience, things in WoW might seem to 'straitjacket' you into a single path (and they tend to actually do that at endgame).
Well, a lot of us old-timers grew up on grinding games like EQ. No tutorial and you began where you needed to be.
When you moved prematurely to a new zone and got smoked in one shot, that was all the tutorial that you needed to tell you that you weren't ready to be there yet.
Pretty much the same thing happens in WoW.
Not really. In WoW you go from quest hub to quest hub, where the NPCs tell you to go, because Blizzard thinks (and rightly so) that WoW players are too dumb to figure out what to do without someone/something constantly telling them what to do.
It's funny, imagine WoW with no quests. Their players would just collect herbs all day and not know how to level up. Everyone in WoW would be stuck at level 1 because they are not smart enough to figure out, there is an instance there, or, there is a camp of NPCs there.
WoW is pure hand holding. There is just no freedom in WoW. You're forced into doing retarded and meaningless quests from level 1-80, unless you want to take twice as long to level up. Anyway, I guess that is needed because WoW players are so dumb. Imagine a WOW player going into a game like EQ. They are so dumb they wouldn't even be able to navigate their way out of a town like Cabilis or Freeport. They'd probably need an NPC to give them a quest to leave the town, with an arrow on their minimap, in order to get them to leave.
God forbid a WoW player used their brain in a real MMORPG. And their endgame is equally pathetic and trivial as the whole leveling up thing. Linear progression of endgame content, not to mention dumbed down & no penalties for losing. It's funny that not all guilds in WoW are at endgame though, considering the game is so hand-holding and forgiving. If you wipe in an instance, you can just go back and have infinite retries.
Here is the kind of raids I want to see in a future MMORPG:
and then when you wipe you get a 30 minute corpse run if you didn't camp any rezzers.
Sick of these retarded MMORPGs giving infinite retries for equally retarded players who brute force their way through content, because they can't manage to stop and think for a second how to defeat a certain raid encounter.
I love this elitist bullshit that one finds on this site. You're the minority and you can't deal with it, so you have to hate on all the WoW players. Guess what? I play WoW and I'm enjoying EVE. Oh shit! I'm too retarded to play EVE! How does that work? There's no arrows pointing my way in EVE, and I blew through the tutorials. I guess I'll just sit in a station with my rookie ship until I figure out (after 15019284390238 hours) how to talk to an Agent. Right? Right.
Hand holding is not the end of the world. I know for you nostalgic old farts who were here at the beginning, it is. Oh no! It's not difficult anymore! It's so dumbed down! Whatever will I do? Blizzard has been making it easier, that's true - but they haven't ignored the difficult content, either. With a game like WoW, the mentality is to get to the end-game. That's where the real stuff happens. That's why the leveling process is pretty much ignored; static and boring, with lots of quests to guide you through 'till 80. I guess you don't want any quests? You want to stumble and be frustrated at every turn until you "brute force your way through content" so you can level? Yeah, that's real smart. Sorry, some of us have lives and don't have time to deal with all that. But, even in WoW, the option is there (like you said) to ignore all quests and level how you want to. It's stupid, but you still have a choice.
Even in WoW, if you don't use any external help (addons, websites), you have to explore an area to find mob camps and, more importantly, quest hubs. The first time you play WoW, it can be pretty intimidating. You open up the map and see all the zones in Eastern Kingdoms (or Kalimdor)... and then you look on the other side of the Great Sea, and you see the other continent with just as many zones. You're thinking, "Damn, how do I get through all this?" But it's fun. Of course, using external help is your choice. If you decide to use it, it's not Blizzard that's holding your hand, it's... well... you. Now I do agree on one thing: Arrows/marks on maps and other types of quest-help are not really necessary. That is hand holding. If you just read the quest text, you can (usually) figure out what to kill and where to find it, or where that herb is, or where you have to deliver the package, etc. "Hints" are okay; outright "Go here for rewards!" is kind of lame.
As for infinite retries in raids? Trial of the Grand Crusader. Look it up.
Here's an example in WOW...in the Barrens, I'm killing Pigs, lvl 10 or 12 or something. I see a band of Elves running down the road...I think Oh CRAP Alliance!!!! Nope, they were elite NPCs running through the barrens. 1 shotted, dead. Not so linear. How about in Ungoro Crater..I'm killing Raptors when the ground starts shaking, I hear a roar and behind me is a fricken T-rex. I get stomped in 2 hits. Not so linear. I can name many more examples but I'd be called a newb liar I guess, because WOW is a linear theme park with no randomness at all=)
The presence of an elite in each zone does not make the game any less linear. Son of Arugal, the Alliance patrol, the T-Rex are all great additions to the game as they add at least some element of danger back into the gameplay. In the case of the Aliiance patrol, that is a really clever way to get people used to the fact that there may be high level members of the opposing faction in the area. The game is still, without a shadow of a doubt, very linear. There's nothing wrong with that, and I'd go as far as to say that WOW is proof that you can make a very linear MMO that is both entertaining and engaging.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Here's an example in WOW...in the Barrens, I'm killing Pigs, lvl 10 or 12 or something. I see a band of Elves running down the road...I think Oh CRAP Alliance!!!! Nope, they were elite NPCs running through the barrens. 1 shotted, dead. Not so linear. How about in Ungoro Crater..I'm killing Raptors when the ground starts shaking, I hear a roar and behind me is a fricken T-rex. I get stomped in 2 hits. Not so linear. I can name many more examples but I'd be called a newb liar I guess, because WOW is a linear theme park with no randomness at all=)
The presence of an elite in each zone does not make the game any less linear. Son of Arugal, the Alliance patrol, the T-Rex are all great additions to the game as they add at least some element of danger back into the gameplay. In the case of the Aliiance patrol, that is a really clever way to get people used to the fact that there may be high level members of the opposing faction in the area. The game is still, without a shadow of a doubt, very linear. There's nothing wrong with that, and I'd go as far as to say that WOW is proof that you can make a very linear MMO that is both entertaining and engaging.
WOW is certainly linear compared to Eve or UO, but its no less linear than DAOC. DOAC had level specific zones and thats what my post was refering to. Is WOW as linear as WAR, Aion or AOC? Not really. Now THOSE are linear MMOs. So linear is only a case of perspective.
The level 'of hand holding' is often really subjective and depends on how experieced with MMORPGs a player is. Personally, I found the level of 'hand holding' in WoW to be minimal since it made obvious sense where I could and should go. Now, if you consider the bread-crumbs quests to be hand holding then you are just grasping at straws. I will however, acknowledge that to someone with little MMORPG experience, things in WoW might seem to 'straitjacket' you into a single path (and they tend to actually do that at endgame).
Well, a lot of us old-timers grew up on grinding games like EQ. No tutorial and you began where you needed to be.
When you moved prematurely to a new zone and got smoked in one shot, that was all the tutorial that you needed to tell you that you weren't ready to be there yet.
Pretty much the same thing happens in WoW.
Not really. In WoW you go from quest hub to quest hub, where the NPCs tell you to go, because Blizzard thinks (and rightly so) that WoW players are too dumb to figure out what to do without someone/something constantly telling them what to do.
It's funny, imagine WoW with no quests. Their players would just collect herbs all day and not know how to level up. Everyone in WoW would be stuck at level 1 because they are not smart enough to figure out, there is an instance there, or, there is a camp of NPCs there.
WoW is pure hand holding. There is just no freedom in WoW. You're forced into doing retarded and meaningless quests from level 1-80, unless you want to take twice as long to level up. Anyway, I guess that is needed because WoW players are so dumb. Imagine a WOW player going into a game like EQ. They are so dumb they wouldn't even be able to navigate their way out of a town like Cabilis or Freeport. They'd probably need an NPC to give them a quest to leave the town, with an arrow on their minimap, in order to get them to leave.
God forbid a WoW player used their brain in a real MMORPG. And their endgame is equally pathetic and trivial as the whole leveling up thing. Linear progression of endgame content, not to mention dumbed down & no penalties for losing. It's funny that not all guilds in WoW are at endgame though, considering the game is so hand-holding and forgiving. If you wipe in an instance, you can just go back and have infinite retries.
Here is the kind of raids I want to see in a future MMORPG:
and then when you wipe you get a 30 minute corpse run if you didn't camp any rezzers.
Sick of these retarded MMORPGs giving infinite retries for equally retarded players who brute force their way through content, because they can't manage to stop and think for a second how to defeat a certain raid encounter.
I love this elitist bullshit that one finds on this site. You're the minority and you can't deal with it, so you have to hate on all the WoW players. Guess what? I play WoW and I'm enjoying EVE. Oh shit! I'm too retarded to play EVE! How does that work? There's no arrows pointing my way in EVE, and I blew through the tutorials. I guess I'll just sit in a station with my rookie ship until I figure out (after 15019284390238 hours) how to talk to an Agent. Right? Right.
Hand holding is not the end of the world. I know for you nostalgic old farts who were here at the beginning, it is. Oh no! It's not difficult anymore! It's so dumbed down! Whatever will I do? Blizzard has been making it easier, that's true - but they haven't ignored the difficult content, either. With a game like WoW, the mentality is to get to the end-game. That's where the real stuff happens. That's why the leveling process is pretty much ignored; static and boring, with lots of quests to guide you through 'till 80. I guess you don't want any quests? You want to stumble and be frustrated at every turn until you "brute force your way through content" so you can level? Yeah, that's real smart. Sorry, some of us have lives and don't have time to deal with all that. But, even in WoW, the option is there (like you said) to ignore all quests and level how you want to. It's stupid, but you still have a choice.
Even in WoW, if you don't use any external help (addons, websites), you have to explore an area to find mob camps and, more importantly, quest hubs. The first time you play WoW, it can be pretty intimidating. You open up the map and see all the zones in Eastern Kingdoms (or Kalimdor)... and then you look on the other side of the Great Sea, and you see the other continent with just as many zones. You're thinking, "Damn, how do I get through all this?" But it's fun. Of course, using external help is your choice. If you decide to use it, it's not Blizzard that's holding your hand, it's... well... you. Now I do agree on one thing: Arrows/marks on maps and other types of quest-help are not really necessary. That is hand holding. If you just read the quest text, you can (usually) figure out what to kill and where to find it, or where that herb is, or where you have to deliver the package, etc. "Hints" are okay; outright "Go here for rewards!" is kind of lame.
As for infinite retries in raids? Trial of the Grand Crusader. Look it up.
I never said EVE was a difficult game. There is a similar amount of hand-holding in EVE. What is EVE really? A subscription to log on and train a skill queue occasionally and log off? If you actually play the game, it consists of doing vanilla missions one after the other. Warp you to a quest encounter, autopilot, etc. An MMORPG without hand holding wouldn't have that. And an MMORPG without hand holding wouldn't have so many meaningless quests like EVE does. WoW is just much worse when it comes to hand holding, because you never lose anything in WoW. Every newbie is equal in WoW.
There used to be a great divide in WoW in terms of player gear, what guilds can raid, etc. Now it's all the same. Why should anyone play a game where all of the content was trivialized? Maybe I don't want every person to have the same gear, to be raiding the same zone. It's kind of boring when you are just a number, a nobody on your server, because they've made it all so easy. No one knows who you are in WoW, you can't ever acquire god status in an MMORPG where everyone is doing the same shit. Maybe an MMORPG where you log onto a server and ask "who is the best paladin" and you don't have 500 different answers, that is a good MMORPG. Nowadays there is too much equality and too much giving away gear for free.
You probably have no idea what WoW was pre all the nerfs, so you don't understand how bad it has become. When Naxx40 was not doable for almost all guilds on the servers, that is how endgame content should always be. It should require a lot of skill in order to overcome. EQ Raids wouldn't be easy unless you actually had strategy, skill, gear, etc. Now all you need to do is show up to the right zone to have the best gear in these games.
I don't want quests, you're right. I would have preferred WoW without quests. Then I would just go from instance to instance, getting what gear I thought was appropriate. I don't want to have to level in zones I don't want to, just because some retarded game designer put a bunch of quests there for newbies. But in WoW I have to go there, because questing is the only way to get decent exp in that game.
You talk about how you have a life, because you like WoW and it has a questing system for exp. Who says that a game with no questing would take longer to reach level 80? There's nothing preventing a game with traditional NPC Grinding from having better exp than a game that makes you do meaningless quests. Some people actually enjoy exploring the game on their own, and not being guided everywhere. Something about things showing up on your mini-map, and running from point A to B to do meaningless quests, something about that ruins the immersion in these games. You're almost always not immersed when playing a quest-based leveling system (You look at your quest log more than the actual game and the world)
Another thing that is funny is how people complain about games that require time investment.. "They don't have lives" you say? Why are you playing an MMORPG again? I thought traditional RPGs required some sort of time investment. I guess it's appropriate that someone like you be playing a game like WoW, because you probably only have to spend 30 minutes in an endgame PvE zone before getting all of the loot there. Anything longer than 30 minutes is a "no life" according to you.
Thats the problem with WoW players. They just want free gear, and Blizzard has to make it appear as if they have to work for it. Show up to this 25 man zone for an hour, and get all the loot. There's no work or skill involved in WoW, it's a bunch of hand-outs. As for the time investment, there is just a lot of trivial content in WoW. Sure, you can clear Naxx25 in an hour. But in WoW you can just go farm other trivial stuff all day too. Take the time from all this and add it up, you have a larger time investment required in WoW than you have had in any other MMORPG. You can spend all day farming PvP instances (Remember Grand Marshal? Just spend 20 hours/day for 3 months straight sitting in Battlegrounds).
And you say that WoW doesn't require a time investment? Lol.
And the whole "external help"/addon stuff? If you don't use it your at a disadvantage. Why take twice as long as some complete newb to level to 80? The game would have been better without addons, without a map, etc. What happened to players making their own maps? Or did that require too much of a brain and memorization? I guess having a map in game means you have a life, unlike in EQ. In EQ you actually had to memorize and learn things, learn where zones are in relation to landmarks, etc. A player with a life can't be memorizing where things are. In fact, they should have autopilot features to locate any zone (EVE). Then your character can just walk to the zone and you can go shopping IRL and talk about how other MMORPG players don't have a life because their game requires some thought.
There is something to grinding. People always say that hate it but they ate grinding shitty quests too. I'd turn all the little quests into big story lines quests that have been well done and that are hard and epic to do. I hate the little, go kill 5 bears, ok now take the bear claws to Mount Stormer and click on them, now kill 7 lizards, now take the potion to etc etc etc.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
MMOs have "kill quests" because that is the only thing we can do...fight.
If MMO gave us more options (Besides crafting which really isn't that big a change, but still good) like political crap, assassinations, ingame scam?, robberies, founding cities and villages.
We could get xp from founding a community, money from tricking people, make an army and PK everyone and loot em to be able to make a fortress.
We shouldn't be listening to these gay quests all day, more options I say!
Originally posted by wisesquirrel MMOs have "kill quests" because that is the only thing we can do...fight. If MMO gave us more options (Besides crafting which really isn't that big a change, but still good) like political crap, assassinations, ingame scam?, robberies, founding cities and villages. We could get xp from founding a community, money from tricking people, make an army and PK everyone and loot em to be able to make a fortress. We shouldn't be listening to these gay quests all day, more options I say!
Viva la dream
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
WOW is certainly linear compared to Eve or UO, but its no less linear than DAOC. DOAC had level specific zones and thats what my post was refering to. Is WOW as linear as WAR, Aion or AOC? Not really. Now THOSE are linear MMOs. So linear is only a case of perspective.
Good point. I had missed the earlier mention of DAoC so I missed what you were referring to specifically.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
MMOs have "kill quests" because that is the only thing we can do...fight.
Stop.
There's more to MMOs than EQ/LOTRO/WOW and the typical Asian grinders.
JohnMatthais has a great thread full of different types and styles of MMOs. I think it would be awesome if everyone that visits MMORPG.com hit that thread up and try one or two MMOs that they haven'tplayed before from that list.
I never said EVE was a difficult game. There is a similar amount of hand-holding in EVE. What is EVE really? A subscription to log on and train a skill queue occasionally and log off? If you actually play the game, it consists of doing vanilla missions one after the other. Warp you to a quest encounter, autopilot, etc. An MMORPG without hand holding wouldn't have that. And an MMORPG without hand holding wouldn't have so many meaningless quests like EVE does. WoW is just much worse when it comes to hand holding, because you never lose anything in WoW. Every newbie is equal in WoW.
No, EvE has far, far more than that. Vastly more. It's just that you only looked at one tiny aspect of the game, namely starter-area PvE, because you can't conceive of an MMO consisting of anything except "hardcore" leveling and grinding.
A thread complaining about tutorials. Seriously? Grow up people. There is nothing wrong with easing a new player into the game. The first few minutes are important to the chances of that player staying in the game. The problem comes when the hand holding lasts outside of the newbie area.
A thread complaining about tutorials. Seriously? Grow up people. There is nothing wrong with easing a new player into the game. The first few minutes are important to the chances of that player staying in the game. The problem comes when the hand holding lasts outside of the newbie area.
Except some games hold your hand from level 1-80, and then even at level 80 they hold your hand while your raiding the "toughest" endgame instances.
Comments
Wait... so you're saying that people were sending in complaints because they were unable to find quest items, and that's why they added sparklies to them?
As in, "I couldn't find this quest item and it can't be that I'm not looking hard enough, or perhaps not following the quest dialog that tells me where to look (reading is for n00bs lol)... It must be something wrong with the game, so fix it. I don't care that others are finding the items just fine. I can't, so it's a problem".
Seriously?
If that's so, then people are even more lazy and spoiled than I thought.
Welcome to our Brave New World, where everyone is entitled to be exceptional and no-one is ever to blame.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
yeah I think we're at an age now where tutorials can safely leave out "this is how to move" "this is how to set a hotkey" "this is how to target" "this is your health and mana bar".
In terms of crafting i'm pretty sure it will be a bland boring system if you have "hand holding". What's the fun in a crafting system where the game tells you exactly what to do? Mix and match is the best way to do it
Nowhere did I say "all game systems are perfect."
A bad crafting system is a bad crafting system, and no amount of usability (or lack thereof) will change the fact that it'll always be shallow.
The right amount of handholding is to equip players with the knowledge of how to use the tools they're given. If crafting is a simple "get the mats and hit create" process with no variance, then little handholding is needed (although you still need enough so that non-gamers can learn how to enjoy the game.)
Basically you shouldn't need to be a rocket surgeon to enjoy a game, even if you might need to be a rocket surgeon to perform flawlessly. "Minute to learn, lifetime to master" as the saying goes. Good usability, with good game depth.
The sad part is, it's to the point where people even find the "lifetime to master" part to be "unfair" and "discriminating against casual gamers and people who don't live in their parents' basement". Hell, if it's a "week to master", they're bitching about it. It's more to the point now of "I'm brand-new to this game and just created my first character and been playing an hour... how come I'm not level 10 yet? This game is too hard"
What's also sad - and this can be witnessed everywhere, not just in games, and especially in Western culture - is that people are becoming lazier and lazier and more and more "entitled" to have whatever they want handed to them without effort.
We've turned into a society of lazy, spoiled, entitled brats who cry "UNFAIR!" and look for someone or something else to blame for our own failures or lack of motivation the moment something doesn't go our way. No wonder other countries laugh at us.
Anyway.... /rant over.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Wait... so you're saying that people were sending in complaints because they were unable to find quest items, and that's why they added sparklies to them?
As in, "I couldn't find this quest item and it can't be that I'm not looking hard enough, or perhaps not following the quest dialog that tells me where to look... It must be something wrong with the game, so fix it. I don't care that others are finding the items just fine. I can't, so it's a problem".
Seriously?
If that's so, then people are even more lazy and spoiled than I thought.
lol nothing new here.there were add-on like quest helper but some were so baddly written or fso full of memory leak that blizzard coded their own and included it in the press m thingy so now when you press m you dont have all that clutter of add-on and see where stuff from x quest is.so all those quest helper add-onb can be removed now
but dont count your gold because blizzard cleary dont like some of the add-on that are out there because they are OP
blizzard will nerf the add-on system and remove lot of avail code because they re finding out
the cade they left in there is still way more powerfull then expected.
oh the average joe dont see those but contrary to what blizzard believed in the right hands
the coding supplied by blizzard is way too powerfull
so much in fact that blizzard will probably need to remove 50% of the stuff in there maybe more since blizzard
is very hard at work trying to find the add-on that player ARE very hard at work hidding
i dont believe blizzard will be able to see those since legal cheater dont want their hidden trick
nerfed.so blizzard might nerf add-on and all way more just to make sure they get rid of some of the trick they saw
they know its just a bunch but catching those trick is hard even for them
because technicly they do only use only the code blizzard provide but some programmer have a lot more imagination then
blizzard anticipated or learned a lot since last time blizzard nerfed that part of the game
and yes blizzard did nerf it often ,even in vanilla blizzard hard to nerf it because blizzard hadnt expected player to used to in those ways
Who is arguing against tutorials? If a game has them, fine, but I don't want to use some stupid tutorial when I play a new MMORPG. Most new MMORPGs are going to be similar to older ones. I don't want to start out in a newb zone, be told to go do useless quests, etc.
The problem is that games tend to use tutorial-based leveling for level 1-80, it just never stops. They couldn't just stop giving bullshit quests at level 5, could they? They have to tell you where to go, what to do throughout the whole game.
And in WoW it's not like the hand-holding ever ends. You play a game where you get infinite retries on raid content, where there is no penalty for losing except a minute or two's worth of time. It just encourages horrible players to keep attempting the same raid content over and over, despite them not having any skill.
In EQ, some of the raid content would take a few hours/days for it to reset, regardless of whether the guild was successful or not. Or it would despawn if it wasn't killed within a certain amount of time (Avatar of War).
New MMOs, pathetic ones like WOW.. They just have bosses sitting around waiting to be killed anymore. Even the trash mobs were too much for the casuals to handle. So zones consist of bosses all alone waiting to be killed.. Not only that, you can basically recover really easily no matter what happens. Just another way to let lousy players clear raid content.
And the PvP content is all hand holding too, you go into protected instances, and lose nothing? How about opening up World PvP again, with a death penalty, and getting rid of the carebear Arena / Battleground system that these stupid games are using..
You are incorrect, I played at launch of DAOC and even tried it again recently, and as is the case in most MMORPG's MOBs DO get higher level the further you move away from where you started.
Yeah,they won't lose too much when wiping(even if retarded continuous wiping will cause repair bills worth of hours of grinding)but they'll never kill them either.
Look at WoW's world hardest encounters,they're right there and you don't lose nothing if you wipe but people still didn't manage to kill them(other than world's best 100).
Most of the "wipe penalties" are nothing more than masks of relatively easy encounters with gimmicks that are easy to figure, but will still wipe you the first times. That's not exactly hard, but the wipe penalty will give you that feeling.
Someone offers some hints and directions in the game and you must follow it?
Is there any mechanism in the game that stops you from bravely ignoring the game hints and march out blindly, bravely, recklessly, in full determination, to die or glory?
No. You can surely do it.
But you do not want to, you just come to rant, because you decide not to go out and explore. Instead you decided to explore here and create a thread to moan.
"Oh mom, there is a prefect in the school helping us find our way to the toilet. I can no longer explore the school any more ..."
Man, you are so off here. Most recent mmos have levels right? Just like schools have classes that stretches upwards. And can I tell you, levels are just a fucking long tutorial!
Do you think I can just create a character in wow and travel to any zone I want? Sure I can but the game is not designed that way, I could explore and enjoy the eye candy thats presented to me, but not much more. The fact is that games with levels are designed to be a long pathed tutorial. You move from one zone to the other like climbing a ladder, and trying yourself at a zone (ladder step) thats later in the tutorial you are practically stuck.
What you are saying is like "Buhu mom there are so many classes I have to take to get my degree. I can no longer just go out and work as a lawyer or what not the age of 6." Because that's how the game(s) (career) are/is designed.
Sure, at the age of six you can manage perfectly in the world, but I fucking doubt you would even get a job. In fact I think theres law against people that young working actually.
In a game like Darkfall or Eve everything is presented to you right off the bat, the world is seeming less and it doesn't matter how old your character or what skill he needs to do x or y.
You have a problem realising it is a GAME?
Some of the harder encounters need some kind of delivery power (from tanking to dps to healing) and a lot of coordination. Not everyone want to put in that much time to get there.
You are incorrect, I played at launch of DAOC and even tried it again recently, and as is the case in most MMORPG's MOBs DO get higher level the further you move away from where you started.
That was also the case of EQ. From the starting city gate you walk out, you find level 1s.
You are incorrect, I played at launch of DAOC and even tried it again recently, and as is the case in most MMORPG's MOBs DO get higher level the further you move away from where you started.
That was also the case of EQ. From the starting city gate you walk out, you find level 1s.
it seems like people's minds get erased when thinking about older MMOs. DAOC was set up just like WOW and just about every MMO out there. Around towns and cities, the mobs were low level or level appropriate for the area. The further you went out the harder they got. Nostalgia....gotta love it=)
Well, a lot of us old-timers grew up on grinding games like EQ. No tutorial and you began where you needed to be.
When you moved prematurely to a new zone and got smoked in one shot, that was all the tutorial that you needed to tell you that you weren't ready to be there yet.
Pretty much the same thing happens in WoW.
Not really. In WoW you go from quest hub to quest hub, where the NPCs tell you to go, because Blizzard thinks (and rightly so) that WoW players are too dumb to figure out what to do without someone/something constantly telling them what to do.
It's funny, imagine WoW with no quests. Their players would just collect herbs all day and not know how to level up. Everyone in WoW would be stuck at level 1 because they are not smart enough to figure out, there is an instance there, or, there is a camp of NPCs there.
WoW is pure hand holding. There is just no freedom in WoW. You're forced into doing retarded and meaningless quests from level 1-80, unless you want to take twice as long to level up. Anyway, I guess that is needed because WoW players are so dumb. Imagine a WOW player going into a game like EQ. They are so dumb they wouldn't even be able to navigate their way out of a town like Cabilis or Freeport. They'd probably need an NPC to give them a quest to leave the town, with an arrow on their minimap, in order to get them to leave.
God forbid a WoW player used their brain in a real MMORPG. And their endgame is equally pathetic and trivial as the whole leveling up thing. Linear progression of endgame content, not to mention dumbed down & no penalties for losing. It's funny that not all guilds in WoW are at endgame though, considering the game is so hand-holding and forgiving. If you wipe in an instance, you can just go back and have infinite retries.
Here is the kind of raids I want to see in a future MMORPG:
and then when you wipe you get a 30 minute corpse run if you didn't camp any rezzers.
Sick of these retarded MMORPGs giving infinite retries for equally retarded players who brute force their way through content, because they can't manage to stop and think for a second how to defeat a certain raid encounter.
I love this elitist bullshit that one finds on this site. You're the minority and you can't deal with it, so you have to hate on all the WoW players. Guess what? I play WoW and I'm enjoying EVE. Oh shit! I'm too retarded to play EVE! How does that work? There's no arrows pointing my way in EVE, and I blew through the tutorials. I guess I'll just sit in a station with my rookie ship until I figure out (after 15019284390238 hours) how to talk to an Agent. Right? Right.
Hand holding is not the end of the world. I know for you nostalgic old farts who were here at the beginning, it is. Oh no! It's not difficult anymore! It's so dumbed down! Whatever will I do? Blizzard has been making it easier, that's true - but they haven't ignored the difficult content, either. With a game like WoW, the mentality is to get to the end-game. That's where the real stuff happens. That's why the leveling process is pretty much ignored; static and boring, with lots of quests to guide you through 'till 80. I guess you don't want any quests? You want to stumble and be frustrated at every turn until you "brute force your way through content" so you can level? Yeah, that's real smart. Sorry, some of us have lives and don't have time to deal with all that. But, even in WoW, the option is there (like you said) to ignore all quests and level how you want to. It's stupid, but you still have a choice.
Even in WoW, if you don't use any external help (addons, websites), you have to explore an area to find mob camps and, more importantly, quest hubs. The first time you play WoW, it can be pretty intimidating. You open up the map and see all the zones in Eastern Kingdoms (or Kalimdor)... and then you look on the other side of the Great Sea, and you see the other continent with just as many zones. You're thinking, "Damn, how do I get through all this?" But it's fun. Of course, using external help is your choice. If you decide to use it, it's not Blizzard that's holding your hand, it's... well... you. Now I do agree on one thing: Arrows/marks on maps and other types of quest-help are not really necessary. That is hand holding. If you just read the quest text, you can (usually) figure out what to kill and where to find it, or where that herb is, or where you have to deliver the package, etc. "Hints" are okay; outright "Go here for rewards!" is kind of lame.
As for infinite retries in raids? Trial of the Grand Crusader. Look it up.
The presence of an elite in each zone does not make the game any less linear. Son of Arugal, the Alliance patrol, the T-Rex are all great additions to the game as they add at least some element of danger back into the gameplay. In the case of the Aliiance patrol, that is a really clever way to get people used to the fact that there may be high level members of the opposing faction in the area. The game is still, without a shadow of a doubt, very linear. There's nothing wrong with that, and I'd go as far as to say that WOW is proof that you can make a very linear MMO that is both entertaining and engaging.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
The presence of an elite in each zone does not make the game any less linear. Son of Arugal, the Alliance patrol, the T-Rex are all great additions to the game as they add at least some element of danger back into the gameplay. In the case of the Aliiance patrol, that is a really clever way to get people used to the fact that there may be high level members of the opposing faction in the area. The game is still, without a shadow of a doubt, very linear. There's nothing wrong with that, and I'd go as far as to say that WOW is proof that you can make a very linear MMO that is both entertaining and engaging.
WOW is certainly linear compared to Eve or UO, but its no less linear than DAOC. DOAC had level specific zones and thats what my post was refering to. Is WOW as linear as WAR, Aion or AOC? Not really. Now THOSE are linear MMOs. So linear is only a case of perspective.
Well, a lot of us old-timers grew up on grinding games like EQ. No tutorial and you began where you needed to be.
When you moved prematurely to a new zone and got smoked in one shot, that was all the tutorial that you needed to tell you that you weren't ready to be there yet.
Pretty much the same thing happens in WoW.
Not really. In WoW you go from quest hub to quest hub, where the NPCs tell you to go, because Blizzard thinks (and rightly so) that WoW players are too dumb to figure out what to do without someone/something constantly telling them what to do.
It's funny, imagine WoW with no quests. Their players would just collect herbs all day and not know how to level up. Everyone in WoW would be stuck at level 1 because they are not smart enough to figure out, there is an instance there, or, there is a camp of NPCs there.
WoW is pure hand holding. There is just no freedom in WoW. You're forced into doing retarded and meaningless quests from level 1-80, unless you want to take twice as long to level up. Anyway, I guess that is needed because WoW players are so dumb. Imagine a WOW player going into a game like EQ. They are so dumb they wouldn't even be able to navigate their way out of a town like Cabilis or Freeport. They'd probably need an NPC to give them a quest to leave the town, with an arrow on their minimap, in order to get them to leave.
God forbid a WoW player used their brain in a real MMORPG. And their endgame is equally pathetic and trivial as the whole leveling up thing. Linear progression of endgame content, not to mention dumbed down & no penalties for losing. It's funny that not all guilds in WoW are at endgame though, considering the game is so hand-holding and forgiving. If you wipe in an instance, you can just go back and have infinite retries.
Here is the kind of raids I want to see in a future MMORPG:
and then when you wipe you get a 30 minute corpse run if you didn't camp any rezzers.
Sick of these retarded MMORPGs giving infinite retries for equally retarded players who brute force their way through content, because they can't manage to stop and think for a second how to defeat a certain raid encounter.
I love this elitist bullshit that one finds on this site. You're the minority and you can't deal with it, so you have to hate on all the WoW players. Guess what? I play WoW and I'm enjoying EVE. Oh shit! I'm too retarded to play EVE! How does that work? There's no arrows pointing my way in EVE, and I blew through the tutorials. I guess I'll just sit in a station with my rookie ship until I figure out (after 15019284390238 hours) how to talk to an Agent. Right? Right.
Hand holding is not the end of the world. I know for you nostalgic old farts who were here at the beginning, it is. Oh no! It's not difficult anymore! It's so dumbed down! Whatever will I do? Blizzard has been making it easier, that's true - but they haven't ignored the difficult content, either. With a game like WoW, the mentality is to get to the end-game. That's where the real stuff happens. That's why the leveling process is pretty much ignored; static and boring, with lots of quests to guide you through 'till 80. I guess you don't want any quests? You want to stumble and be frustrated at every turn until you "brute force your way through content" so you can level? Yeah, that's real smart. Sorry, some of us have lives and don't have time to deal with all that. But, even in WoW, the option is there (like you said) to ignore all quests and level how you want to. It's stupid, but you still have a choice.
Even in WoW, if you don't use any external help (addons, websites), you have to explore an area to find mob camps and, more importantly, quest hubs. The first time you play WoW, it can be pretty intimidating. You open up the map and see all the zones in Eastern Kingdoms (or Kalimdor)... and then you look on the other side of the Great Sea, and you see the other continent with just as many zones. You're thinking, "Damn, how do I get through all this?" But it's fun. Of course, using external help is your choice. If you decide to use it, it's not Blizzard that's holding your hand, it's... well... you. Now I do agree on one thing: Arrows/marks on maps and other types of quest-help are not really necessary. That is hand holding. If you just read the quest text, you can (usually) figure out what to kill and where to find it, or where that herb is, or where you have to deliver the package, etc. "Hints" are okay; outright "Go here for rewards!" is kind of lame.
As for infinite retries in raids? Trial of the Grand Crusader. Look it up.
I never said EVE was a difficult game. There is a similar amount of hand-holding in EVE. What is EVE really? A subscription to log on and train a skill queue occasionally and log off? If you actually play the game, it consists of doing vanilla missions one after the other. Warp you to a quest encounter, autopilot, etc. An MMORPG without hand holding wouldn't have that. And an MMORPG without hand holding wouldn't have so many meaningless quests like EVE does. WoW is just much worse when it comes to hand holding, because you never lose anything in WoW. Every newbie is equal in WoW.
There used to be a great divide in WoW in terms of player gear, what guilds can raid, etc. Now it's all the same. Why should anyone play a game where all of the content was trivialized? Maybe I don't want every person to have the same gear, to be raiding the same zone. It's kind of boring when you are just a number, a nobody on your server, because they've made it all so easy. No one knows who you are in WoW, you can't ever acquire god status in an MMORPG where everyone is doing the same shit. Maybe an MMORPG where you log onto a server and ask "who is the best paladin" and you don't have 500 different answers, that is a good MMORPG. Nowadays there is too much equality and too much giving away gear for free.
You probably have no idea what WoW was pre all the nerfs, so you don't understand how bad it has become. When Naxx40 was not doable for almost all guilds on the servers, that is how endgame content should always be. It should require a lot of skill in order to overcome. EQ Raids wouldn't be easy unless you actually had strategy, skill, gear, etc. Now all you need to do is show up to the right zone to have the best gear in these games.
I don't want quests, you're right. I would have preferred WoW without quests. Then I would just go from instance to instance, getting what gear I thought was appropriate. I don't want to have to level in zones I don't want to, just because some retarded game designer put a bunch of quests there for newbies. But in WoW I have to go there, because questing is the only way to get decent exp in that game.
You talk about how you have a life, because you like WoW and it has a questing system for exp. Who says that a game with no questing would take longer to reach level 80? There's nothing preventing a game with traditional NPC Grinding from having better exp than a game that makes you do meaningless quests. Some people actually enjoy exploring the game on their own, and not being guided everywhere. Something about things showing up on your mini-map, and running from point A to B to do meaningless quests, something about that ruins the immersion in these games. You're almost always not immersed when playing a quest-based leveling system (You look at your quest log more than the actual game and the world)
Another thing that is funny is how people complain about games that require time investment.. "They don't have lives" you say? Why are you playing an MMORPG again? I thought traditional RPGs required some sort of time investment. I guess it's appropriate that someone like you be playing a game like WoW, because you probably only have to spend 30 minutes in an endgame PvE zone before getting all of the loot there. Anything longer than 30 minutes is a "no life" according to you.
Thats the problem with WoW players. They just want free gear, and Blizzard has to make it appear as if they have to work for it. Show up to this 25 man zone for an hour, and get all the loot. There's no work or skill involved in WoW, it's a bunch of hand-outs. As for the time investment, there is just a lot of trivial content in WoW. Sure, you can clear Naxx25 in an hour. But in WoW you can just go farm other trivial stuff all day too. Take the time from all this and add it up, you have a larger time investment required in WoW than you have had in any other MMORPG. You can spend all day farming PvP instances (Remember Grand Marshal? Just spend 20 hours/day for 3 months straight sitting in Battlegrounds).
And you say that WoW doesn't require a time investment? Lol.
And the whole "external help"/addon stuff? If you don't use it your at a disadvantage. Why take twice as long as some complete newb to level to 80? The game would have been better without addons, without a map, etc. What happened to players making their own maps? Or did that require too much of a brain and memorization? I guess having a map in game means you have a life, unlike in EQ. In EQ you actually had to memorize and learn things, learn where zones are in relation to landmarks, etc. A player with a life can't be memorizing where things are. In fact, they should have autopilot features to locate any zone (EVE). Then your character can just walk to the zone and you can go shopping IRL and talk about how other MMORPG players don't have a life because their game requires some thought.
There is something to grinding. People always say that hate it but they ate grinding shitty quests too. I'd turn all the little quests into big story lines quests that have been well done and that are hard and epic to do. I hate the little, go kill 5 bears, ok now take the bear claws to Mount Stormer and click on them, now kill 7 lizards, now take the potion to etc etc etc.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
MMOs have "kill quests" because that is the only thing we can do...fight.
If MMO gave us more options (Besides crafting which really isn't that big a change, but still good) like political crap, assassinations, ingame scam?, robberies, founding cities and villages.
We could get xp from founding a community, money from tricking people, make an army and PK everyone and loot em to be able to make a fortress.
We shouldn't be listening to these gay quests all day, more options I say!
Viva la dream
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
Good point. I had missed the earlier mention of DAoC so I missed what you were referring to specifically.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Stop.
There's more to MMOs than EQ/LOTRO/WOW and the typical Asian grinders.
JohnMatthais has a great thread full of different types and styles of MMOs. I think it would be awesome if everyone that visits MMORPG.com hit that thread up and try one or two MMOs that they haven'tplayed before from that list.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/261945
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
lol omg learn to read the whole post before responding to it.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
No, EvE has far, far more than that. Vastly more. It's just that you only looked at one tiny aspect of the game, namely starter-area PvE, because you can't conceive of an MMO consisting of anything except "hardcore" leveling and grinding.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
You want no hand-holding? Try Mortal Online or Face of Mankind. No tutorial whatsoever. At least Darkfall tells you the basic functions...sheesh.
Check out the MUD I'm making!
A thread complaining about tutorials. Seriously? Grow up people. There is nothing wrong with easing a new player into the game. The first few minutes are important to the chances of that player staying in the game. The problem comes when the hand holding lasts outside of the newbie area.
Except some games hold your hand from level 1-80, and then even at level 80 they hold your hand while your raiding the "toughest" endgame instances.