Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

This is what I dont get

2456

Comments

  • ScrogdogScrogdog Member Posts: 380

    Ah, it all makes sense now.

    STO is a Big Mac.

    TOR is a Double Whopper with Cheese.

    Darkfall is a Happy Meal.

  • MMO_DoubterMMO_Doubter Member Posts: 5,056
    Originally posted by Sauronas


    I totally agree with OP. It seems every licensed game gets rushed out the door and end up feeling half assed and lacking. The reason for this is the property owners. It's not like the owners of the star trek license know anything about video games, especially MMOs, yet they have total control over the entire design of the game. That is why movie producers and trust fund babies shouldn't be allowed to set foot in game studios. 

    No, it's the customers who buy these things who are to blame.

    "" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2

  • TimzillaTimzilla Member UncommonPosts: 437
    Originally posted by Toquio3


    Funny you should say that about Lotro, because it were the holders of the IP themselves who said they didnt want players to be the bad guys, not Turbine.



     

    Pretty good example of how IP can cripple a dev and their game. I'd just as soon see original titles myself. The ST IP is probably loose enough to allow for a broad imagination though. You can play Fed or Klingon at release. What else is there. The short dev time, imo, is about right. The typical fantasy game would be about 10 times more complex than an ST game. So 5 years to make a complex game as opposed to 2 years to make a fairly simple pew pew game isn't alarming at all.

  • mynameisbenmynameisben Member Posts: 33
    Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

    Originally posted by Sauronas


    I totally agree with OP. It seems every licensed game gets rushed out the door and end up feeling half assed and lacking. The reason for this is the property owners. It's not like the owners of the star trek license know anything about video games, especially MMOs, yet they have total control over the entire design of the game. That is why movie producers and trust fund babies shouldn't be allowed to set foot in game studios. 

    No, it's the customers who buy these things who are to blame.

     

    You must not be a gamer, we will try any game. The craziest among us will buy a lifetime subscription for one game for the chance to play another hypothetical better game early lol. I think everyone should wait on this one though, Cryptic was offering free trials of champions a month or so after release right? Have patience.

  • SioBabbleSioBabble Member Posts: 2,803

    OK, let's get serious.

    Think back.

    How many actually good games have carried the Star Trek IP?

    Just off the top of your head...

    I can think of four or five, tops, with the Star Wars IP.

    Trek's record as a gaming franchise is even more abysmal than that.

    CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.

    Once a denizen of Ahazi

  • pauldriverpauldriver Member Posts: 198
    Originally posted by dirtyklingon


    i think sto is an ip caught between a subpar dev team with very real time and money constraints and a fanbase that has very unrealistic expectations about what should be in the game, along with unrealistic ideas about gameplay.
     ^This^ Dirtyklingon has hit the nail on the head. I've always been very fond of Star Trek and hoped it would be everything the films and series were.
    But being realistic with who is developing it and from what videos, screens and literature I've consumed I came to the conclusion it will be somewhat enjoyable, the hardcore trekkies who want it bad enough will play it no matter what and cryptic will once again have a made a profitable mess while raping the worlds most beloved intellectual property.


    EDIT: Grammar.

    Jam is sticky.

  • ScrogdogScrogdog Member Posts: 380
    Originally posted by SioBabble


    OK, let's get serious.
    Think back.
    How many actually good games have carried the Star Trek IP?
    Just off the top of your head...
    I can think of four or five, tops, with the Star Wars IP.
    Trek's record as a gaming franchise is even more abysmal than that.



     

    That's because Star Wars was an action franchise, not one that explored human issues. Action games aren't exactly cerebral.

    Star Trek is never going to be accurately represented in any game. It's far too complex a beast.

    But then, Star Wars Galaxies shipped without a space component and was not terribly true to the IP nor did it is make you feel like you were in the movies. Those items are far from what killed the game.

    The fact is, people just liked tooling around a game that had Star Wars trappings, even though it wasn't a particularly good representation of Star Wars.

  • SioBabbleSioBabble Member Posts: 2,803
    Originally posted by Scrogdog

    Originally posted by SioBabble


    OK, let's get serious.
    Think back.
    How many actually good games have carried the Star Trek IP?
    Just off the top of your head...
    I can think of four or five, tops, with the Star Wars IP.
    Trek's record as a gaming franchise is even more abysmal than that.



     

    That's because Star Wars was an action franchise, not one that explored human issues. Action games aren't exactly cerebral.

    Star Trek is never going to be accurately represented in any game. It's far too complex a beast.

    But then, Star Wars Galaxies shipped without a space component and was not terribly true to the IP nor did it is make you feel like you were in the movies. Those items are far from what killed the game.

    The fact is, people just liked tooling around a game that had Star Wars trappings, even though it wasn't a particularly good representation of Star Wars.



     

    Star Trek was sold as an "action adventure" series to the network back in the 60's.  Remember, "The Menagerie" was thought to be "too cerebral" for an American TV audience.  So the second pilot was filmed, with more wraslin' around, and that sold the series to the pinheads at NBC.

    The problem with Trek is that the name is expected to sell it.  The content is considered almost irrelevant.  Star Wars suffers from the same thing...the bantha poodoo in a box syndrome.  Most SW games blow rancor chunks.

    CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.

    Once a denizen of Ahazi

  • ScrogdogScrogdog Member Posts: 380
    Originally posted by SioBabble


    Star Trek was sold as an "action adventure" series to the network back in the 60's.  Remember, "The Menagerie" was thought to be "too cerebral" for an American TV audience.  So the second pilot was filmed, with more wraslin' around, and that sold the series to the pinheads at NBC.
    The problem with Trek is that the name is expected to sell it.  The content is considered almost irrelevant.  Star Wars suffers from the same thing...the bantha poodoo in a box syndrome.  Most SW games blow rancor chunks.



     

    Yep... and then they led off with the gawdawful Man Trap.

    However, even TOS evolved greatly from that initial premise.

    The name WILL sell it. And the trappings of Star Trek will keep people playing, just like paying subscribers still play SWG today.

    Then, TOR will be published and SWG will die. And TOR will hold subs even if a steaming plie of dung.

  • Cameron27Cameron27 Member Posts: 142

    Ummm... Star Trek 25th Anniversary and Judgement Rites, oh and probably the cancelled Secret of the Vulcan Fury, really wanted that game. I guess Star Trek Armada was pretty fun too, but nothing special.

    "I will not play it nor any other MMO until they make it possible to obtain the best gear without forcing people to group up to do so." SwampRob

  • Shelby13Shelby13 Member Posts: 79

    I think its a pretty big mistake not to have 2 fully developed factions at release.. particularly as these factions represent the two most popular and iconic 'races' in the franchise.

    As I understand from the 'interview'.. the devs wanted to have PvP at the start so they don't lose-out on that audience... but how does that logic apply to the Klingon audience.. or the Romulan audience.

    The original ST Armada was a fun and diverse game because you could pilot any of the four (with Borg) major factions.. it was fun to explore the various stylistic differences between ships.

    Honestly, I can wait for PvP because its going to take months to learn the new system fully (I hope) and explore all the PvE content (again I hope) before we really see any top-level... end-game.. PvP combat.

    Now.. they are going to make the game Federation heavy... which might permanently stunt the growth of new factions introduced after launch.

    I don't believe everything has to be 'in' the game before launch.. but at least 2 full factions... as a bare-bones minimum.. seems to make sense to me.

    SWG/STO/(SWTOR)

  • HalpotHalpot Member CommonPosts: 204

    Back on topic please. 

  • ariestearieste Member UncommonPosts: 3,309

    it's about making money.  so the priority becomes not "how do we best represent the IP" but "how do we best sell this to people that play MMOs".  The answer to that question has been answered by people proverbially voting with their dollar.  SWG was an excellent representation of the IP.  But for the most part it was't a particularly fun or successful game.  Obviously "fun" is in the ey of the beholder and there are tons of people that loved, but overall it was a failure.

    WoW wasn't particularly great about embracing the IP (although it helped that the same company created the IP), but it was made to sell as a game, so success.  

    So given those two examples "do we do an SWG and follow the IP" or "do we do a WoW and follow money", the answer is usually the latter.  So when new companies got the SW and ST IPs, the design choice is simple - "how do we sell this to gamers that play WoW".   That's success.  

    On the other hand, this doesn't mean the IP is completely destroyed.  I thought Turbine did an amazing job in staying true to the LoTR feel.  Being a fan of the books, I very much liked where the game put me and the paths it allowed me.   It felt "very lotr".  More or less the same for AoC, though I wasn't a huge fan of the books, having read a few, I think Funcom did a good job with the feel of the world.  On the other hand,  I expect SW:TOR to basically be WoW with lightsabers and I think it's moronic how they're adjusting the history to basically allow them to do "empire vs republic" in a timeline that is completely different.  

    The problem with STO is that they're making a combat game out of a non-combat IP.  There is no possible way to do this right.  So once I'm over that, i hope they at least make it fun.   It's worked before, there have been a couple of FPS games based on trek that were excellent.  I think a better way to approach ST IP for a combat game would have been to make it less broad - just focus on one specific armed conflict and let people partake in that.  We're just not in an MMO climate where people are interested in the high-minded ideals of star trek - exploration, building relationships, etc.  

    Anyway, if you wanted an answer, there it is.  Though I'm guessing you know most of this and just want to vent.

     

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

    Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
    Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
    Currently Playing: ESO

  • Xondar123Xondar123 Member CommonPosts: 2,543
    Originally posted by Cameron27


    Ummm... Star Trek 25th Anniversary and Judgement Rites, oh and probably the cancelled Secret of the Vulcan Fury, really wanted that game. I guess Star Trek Armada was pretty fun too, but nothing special.

     

    I really liked Starfleet Academy.

  • MattMassacreMattMassacre Member Posts: 182
    Originally posted by Yamota


    Star Trek IP is big, its friggin HUGE. Yet Cryptic thinks it can do it justice by having a 2.5 years development time and only 1.5 playable factions in the game?
    Doesnt make much sense to me. If you shell out so much money for a huge license then why waste the opportunity by not including the Dominion, Romulans etc as playable races and thus alienating a proportion of the IP fan base?
    It would be like Turbine buying the LOTR IP and not include Orcs as a playable faction. oh wait...
    Really, IP owners should be more careful who they sell their license to.



     

    I totally agree. Selling the IP to Cryptic was the worst thing I've ever heard of. In my opinion, Cryptic is RUINING the game and it's not even out!

  • VultureSkullVultureSkull Member UncommonPosts: 1,774

    I agree with the OP.

    You can either make a comprehensive ST game or a medicore one.

    A comprehensive ST MMO would have all the main races (Klingon, Romulans, Dominon, Borg etc) as playable, 'fully fleshed out' options. Of that there is no doubt.

    There would be a graphics engine dedicated to the game's demands, not a second hand one that cannot properly support 3D space simulation.

     

    What i see from Cryptic, is a company, that is looking to get a game out there as soon as possible and get a revenue stream going. That is their aim. Over the pass few years we have seen this happen over and over again, and results in medicore games being released many of which fail hands down.

    We all know what this STOL is going to be like, it will be half arsed, lack of content BS.  A "play for one month and give up" type of game. I wish more companies would take on Bilizzard's mantra of  "its ready when its ready" and not before.  Then and only then will we see decent games in this genre. There are no short cuts in making an decent MMO.

    It is a re-occuring theme. Look at Mythic, they cut how may cities before release of WAR? And where is it now = fail. Cryptic releasing a game as mighty as Star Trek online and has only one, i mean o-n-e fully fleshed out playable faction = certian, definite FAIL, come on it is not rocket science.

    Its a crying shame that an IP as famous as ST has once again been trahsed by a company that is intrested in a quick buck.

     

    Delay release, release it in 2011, with a proper engine, fully realised factions and enough game play and end game content to call it an MMO and the game will last for 5 +years.

    Release it in the next few months and it will last about a year and then become a niche game or fail out right, mark my words.

     

  • JeroKaneJeroKane Member EpicPosts: 7,098
    Originally posted by dirtyklingon


    i think sto is an ip caught between a subpar dev team with very real time and money constraints and a fanbase that has very unrealistic expectations about what should be in the game, along with unrealistic ideas about gameplay.
     
    an example is that people are still whining about pc crews. any mmo players knows how frustrating and time consuming forming a group can be. imagine having to fill 5 unique slots every time you logged in. even at peak times this would be a nightmare.
     
    then we find out that klingons are barely if at all implemented yet, pvp mechanics haven't been sorted yet, and there will be little if any klingon pve. which definitely hurts for people planning on going klingon like myself. i don't mind less pve focus and more pvp focus, but the speculated upon pvp(by teh devs) is so limited in scope. no world pvp? klingons have been ganksters since star trek 3! if not a tos episode or two! klingons' ideas about honour are much different than humans' ideas about honour. the first hint is that klingons use a cloaking device to remain hidden from their enemies until just the right moment.



     

    Have you ever seen any good PVP stuff coming out of Cryptic?

    I mean. PVP sucked big time in City of Heroes/Villians.  It sucked again in Champions Online.

    You think it will be any better in STO?

  • GrumpyMel2GrumpyMel2 Member Posts: 1,832
    Originally posted by Yamota


    Star Trek IP is big, its friggin HUGE. Yet Cryptic thinks it can do it justice by having a 2.5 years development time and only 1.5 playable factions in the game?
    Doesnt make much sense to me. If you shell out so much money for a huge license then why waste the opportunity by not including the Dominion, Romulans etc as playable races and thus alienating a proportion of the IP fan base?
    It would be like Turbine buying the LOTR IP and not include Orcs as a playable faction. oh wait...
    Really, IP owners should be more careful who they sell their license to.

     

    I think you're right on Star Trek but wrong on LOTR. What Turbine did with the monster races made perfect sense. In Tolkiens lore....the Orcs (at the time of the game) had no will of thier own. They were servants of the Shadow...dominated by Saurons will.... and having little choice in thier own actions. The only exception were those bred by Saurman....who were dominated by his will alone. Even in other times, when the power of the Shadow was much subdued....orcs, by thier very nature, were pretty much one dimensional creatures. They don't really exhibit the kind of nuance of behavior, society and culture that orcs, say in Warcraft Lore, do.  I think it fits well with that IP to NOT have them be a fullly playable race.

    Now if we were talking Dunlanders or Easterlings or the Corsairs of Umbar, etc....I think you could have a decent arguement there.

    Obviously in Star Trek IP.... the "enemy" races were mostly fully fledged cultures with individuals having control over thier own psyche.... though one could make arguements that might not apply to certain "hive-mind" type races.... the Borg for example might be considered to have limited individual autonomy. I could see the arguement for those go either way.

    But I will have to defend what Turbine did as far as orcs go in LOTRO.

     

  • godseek3rgodseek3r Member Posts: 76

    Just because the game is not what you would like it to be, does not mean it is a failure.

    Playing - Champions Online
    Unsure Of - Darkfall, Star Trek Online
    Waiting For - Star Wars: The Old Republic, All Points Bulletin
    Played - Age Of Conan, Everquest II, Mabinogi, Tabula Rasa, Star Wars Galaxies, World Of Warcraft

  • tman5tman5 Member Posts: 604
    Originally posted by roach5000


    but honestly if you own a Burger King and I come in and ask for a Big Mac and you tell me you dont have Big Macs and I go on and on about how I wanted a Big Mac and here is how you could make a Big Mac and everyone in the resturant wants a Big Mac and how your Burger King will fail because you arent serving Big Mac......um that's whining

     

    But, if you called your store McDonald's and I came in looking for a Big Mac but you said you didn't have Big Macs . . .  well, it really isnt a McDonald's, is it?

     

  • vmopedvmoped Member Posts: 1,708
    Originally posted by tman5

    Originally posted by roach5000


    but honestly if you own a Burger King and I come in and ask for a Big Mac and you tell me you dont have Big Macs and I go on and on about how I wanted a Big Mac and here is how you could make a Big Mac and everyone in the resturant wants a Big Mac and how your Burger King will fail because you arent serving Big Mac......um that's whining

     

    But, if you called your store McDonald's and I came in looking for a Big Mac but you said you didn't have Big Macs . . .  well, it really isnt a McDonald's, is it?

     



     

    There is a McDonald's in my town that does not serve Big Macs in fact it does not serve any food except jerky, yet it is still a McDonalds... its a horse supply store, but that is what it has been called for quite a long time.  The real response is, buyer beware. Do research and when you walk in, or in this case, purchase the game you should have some idea of what you are buying and from what I have seena and read Cryptic has been fairly honest and up front about what is being offered when this game launches. All the forum whining in the world will not change that at this point in development. You got your player bridges, you will have to wait for them to flesh out the Klingons and further content. That is, if the game is profitable enough.

    Cheers!

    MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S

  • dhayes68dhayes68 Member UncommonPosts: 1,388
    Originally posted by hidden1

    Originally posted by Yamota


    Star Trek IP is big, its friggin HUGE. Yet Cryptic thinks it can do it justice by having a 2.5 years development time and only 1.5 playable factions in the game?
    Doesnt make much sense to me. If you shell out so much money for a huge license then why waste the opportunity by not including the Dominion, Romulans etc as playable races and thus alienating a proportion of the IP fan base?
    It would be like Turbine buying the LOTR IP and not include Orcs as a playable faction. oh wait...
    Really, IP owners should be more careful who they sell their license to.

    An here I thought the main problem with big brand-name IP licenses is that the cost is so huge to license, leaving less money for production costs.

    That's why I prefer "original" content, as apposed to STARWARS/TREK/GATE, DC UNIVERSE, MARVEL... blah blah, boring boring and the list goes on.

    Original branding = more money for production of the game (though that doesn't necessarily mean the will be good, but ... it does help)

    An established IP is a shortcut to big funding from investors who, despite investing, don't like to risk their money and are much happier gambling their money on a product that has proven itself over time, rather than some dreamer's silly ideas. Bear in mind, investors don't CARE about the game being successful. They only care about making a return on their investment. That could mean a hyped launch, lots of box sales and initial subs. Who cares if the game tanks in a year?  So thats the kind of game you get from an established IP.

    Personally I wish more devs would stop taking the established IP shortcut and do the hard work to bring a dream to fruition. Dev times would be longer and the time it takes for a game to really find its groove after launch would also be a while but the ones that made it would be gems.

  • tman5tman5 Member Posts: 604
    Originally posted by dhayes68 
    Personally I wish more devs would stop taking the established IP shortcut and do the hard work to bring a dream to fruition. Dev times would be longer and the time it takes for a game to really find its groove after launch would also be a while but the ones that made it would be gems.

     

    Much truth here.  I have said, particularily of this mess, that some IPs simply do not make good games.  Since doing Trek right is "too hard,' "too expensive," and/or would take "too long," do something else.  Don't half-ass it.

     

    You know, sometimes I think game developers really love the controversy.

  • dhayes68dhayes68 Member UncommonPosts: 1,388
    Originally posted by tman5

    Originally posted by dhayes68 
    Personally I wish more devs would stop taking the established IP shortcut and do the hard work to bring a dream to fruition. Dev times would be longer and the time it takes for a game to really find its groove after launch would also be a while but the ones that made it would be gems.

     

    Much truth here.  I have said, particularily of this mess, that some IPs simply do not make good games.  Since doing Trek right is "too hard,' "too expensive," and/or would take "too long," do something else.  Don't half-ass it.

     

    You know, sometimes I think game developers really love the controversy.

     

    Free publicity =D

  • goldenkeygoldenkey Member UncommonPosts: 98

     

    All the doom saying here is really amazing. It seem to me that whenever I read about a new game that is coming up for release on this forum it's shot down in flames as not measuring up to WOW or whatever. I was in wow at release and I can tell you that it was not all peaches and cream that's for sure. Just ask anyone that was there bugged content missing content such as no pvp at all on the pve servers just to name a few.

    I also played AOC at release and now that was an epic failure more missing content than any game before or sense and more bugged content as well. I have read the reviews done by people in the game currently and while the lack of Klingon pve content is a disappointment it's not a game breaker. The other issue is the ground content is buggy but there is hope that they can fix some of that before release. Overall the reviews have been positive and I for one put more stock in what people say that have actually played the game than trolls that have no real game play experience.

    I have heard as well about the lack of true 3D combat IE no top and bottom shields from a game design prospective I’m not sure what can be done about that. It is a drawback for sure but not a game breaker IMO. The truth is that MMO companies have to manage the scope of what they are going to release to the public. If they overreach the development time takes to long and runs up the cost to the point to where they will never recover their cost. Or it turns into a buggy mess the truth is these games are a work in progress. The takeaway from AOC is release what you promised you were going to and you better make dam sure it works. So that means limiting what’s in at release and adding in things at a later date in a controlled manner.

     

Sign In or Register to comment.