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You have your PVP, Now let me have my PVE
fearless47
Member UncommonPosts: 34
This has been the year for PVP in MMO's. You have Darkfall, Mortal Online, Warhammer Online and many other games that have released or are about to be released. I am glad you got those PVP games that all the PVP'ers have been itching for and I hope they live up to your expectations. Everyone should have a game that they like to play.
With that being said, now I would like an AAA game to come out that is only PVE to satisfy the PVE gamers like myself. A game which has expansive areas to run around in for exploration. A multitude of classes that are quite different form each other with a wide selection of races to make the mix really varied.
A game that does not have to worry about nerfing or balancing characters so that they can be equal in a PVP environment. I could care less if the wizard nukes mobs in 3 fireballs, if a druid can kite a high level mob around with dots, if a necro can fear kite mobs, if a bard can mezz 10 mobs at once or if a healer can heal himself/herself 20 times in a battle to stay alive, etc..
To me that makes each character unique and people tend to find good strategies to make that character work for them. Nothing wrong with that. It sure seems to me even if you have certain abilities that are good there are also things that hinder you. Take for example the druid, outside they could kite mobs solo, but put them in a dungeon and they would need to work harder then other classes to survive since they would be confined by space issues or snaring mobs would not work in dungeons.
Without the need to worry about balancing classes and races (racial abilities) , the developers could concentrate on new content. Making plenty of free roaming mobs, mob camps, quests, dungeons, raids, etc.
Story lines could be a major focus, lands could change over time from epic events, dungeons could be instanced zones that scaled from solo to group sizes.
More social things could be added, like crafting, merchants, shipbuilders, construction workers, kings, queens, mayors. Complete political structures could be put in place with public voting of offices, espionage, townships, kingdoms. Quests could expand to include political intrigue, like assassination , bribes, renown. This would get away from the kill 10 mobs or get wolf hide quests.
I think the thing that is holding back MMORPG's is that now they try to cater to everyone at the same time. This both stifles the PVP and PVE games from innovations that could be taking place in that genre. You cannot fix PVP game play by adding PVE elements to the game or vice versa. Developers would be better off concentrating on one or the other.
Game companies seem to be spending more time balancing PVE characters in games for the purpose of PVP to such an extent that it takes away from their creative content that they should be working on. I think both PVP and PVE players lose out in the long run. So I am glad to see those PVP games come out on the market and hope that we can also get a new PVE game released. One that relies solely on PVE.This has been the year for PVP in MMO's. You have Darkfall, Mortal Online, Warhammer Online and many other games that have released or are about to be released. I am glad you got those PVP games that all the PVP'ers have been itching for and I hope they live up to your expectations. Everyone should have a game that they like to play.
With that being said, now I would like an AAA game to come out that is only PVE to satisfy the PVE gamers like myself. A game which has expansive areas to run around in for exploration. A multitude of classes that are quite different form each other with a wide selection of races to make the mix really varied.
A game that does not have to worry about nerfing or balancing characters so that they can be equal in a PVP environment. I could care less if the wizard nukes mobs in 3 fireballs, if a druid can kite a high level mob around with dots, if a necro can fear kite mobs, if a bard can mezz 10 mobs at once or if a healer can heal himself/herself 20 times in a battle to stay alive, etc..
To me that makes each character unique and people tend to find good strategies to make that character work for them. Nothing wrong with that. It sure seems to me even if you have certain abilities that are good there are also things that hinder you. Take for example the druid, outside they could kite mobs solo, but put them in a dungeon and they would need to work harder then other classes to survive since they would be confined by space issues or snaring mobs would not work in dungeons.
Without the need to worry about balancing classes and races (racial abilities) , the developers could concentrate on new content. Making plenty of free roaming mobs, mob camps, quests, dungeons, raids, etc.
Story lines could be a major focus, lands could change over time from epic events, dungeons could be instanced zones that scaled from solo to group sizes.
More social things could be added, like crafting, merchants, shipbuilders, construction workers, kings, queens, mayors. Complete political structures could be put in place with public voting of offices, espionage, townships, kingdoms. Quests could expand to include political intrigue, like assassination , bribes, renown. This would get away from the kill 10 mobs or get wolf hide quests.
I think the thing that is holding back MMORPG's is that now they try to cater to everyone at the same time. This both stifles the PVP and PVE games from innovations that could be taking place in that genre. You cannot fix PVP game play by adding PVE elements to the game or vice versa. Developers would be better off concentrating on one or the other.
Game companies seem to be spending more time balancing PVE characters in games for the purpose of PVP to such an extent that it takes away from their creative content that they should be working on. I think both PVP and PVE players lose out in the long run. So I am glad to see those PVP games come out on the market and hope that we can also get a new PVE game released. One that relies solely on PVE.
Comments
FFXIV will be the game you are looking for I think, though it might be a bit light on the solo content.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All games u mentioned failed, u have lotro and wow for pve. PvP players still have nothing.
...you forgot Craft of Gods and Aika...
...and I've got to agree. PvP players have null in terms of a game that's actually good....even Fallen Earth caters more to the PvE players...
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I would still like to see a game that excels at both PvE and PvP. I have yet to see a game lately pull this off. They either excel in one area while putting little effort into the other or succeed in offering a terrible gameplay experience in both.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
I would love to see that as well but i don't mind some pvp some days. How about all you mentioned but give it miltiple factions like 3 or 5 and bring in faction rvr like DAoC.
3 Faction RvR is present in the upcoming indie MMO, Craft of Gods, as well as in RealmLords, both of which are also attempting to provide many sandbox elements and a rich PvE experience. Whether they reach that, who knows.
Check out the MUD I'm making!
I wouldn't mind a game fully focused on PVE, however balancing classes is there for more reasons than just pvp.
Unbalanced classes leads quickly to classes that are overpowered.
Now balancing surely goes too far of course, but if you only have a few classes that are worthwhile playing then most people will play those classes only. What good is a game if you have 25 classes but only 5 are being played because they simply are superior to the others?
FFXIV, I will be waiting to see how that goes. Hopefully they will come up with a better system then the terrible menu interface that they used in FFXI. I had a hard time getting past the interface in that game, combined with the fact that I played it when it first came out and there were not a lot of English speaking people on my server which made it hard for me to group.
As for WOW, it still has had balancing done for the pvp side of the game and I already have maxed characters on it. At times you need pvp gear to do the pve raids and I do not find their PVP that exciting to play it long enough to get that gear.
Lotro – Been there, but for some reason it is just a dull game to me. I tired to play multiple times and about the longest I could make it is like a lvl 45 character. I think it is probably the character classes that just do not suit me. I prefer more of the traditional healer, wizard, fighter, monk types with hybrids from there.
I am sorry the newest PVP games did not turn out to be what you expected. I had hoped that one of them would have risen to the occasion. Maybe the Craft of Gods or Aika will be better. I still think the best PVP game I ever played was the original Dark Age Of Camelot.
I love PvP but I think I would settle for a really good PvE game then the current 2 faction setup that have their PvE areas and meet in the middle to fight.
Maybe I am old fashion but what happened to the neutral faction.
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You can't really find an MMO that doesn't have one of the other, PvE or PvP. If you want nothing but PvE, go play Maple Story.
I know it's all opinion but I think LotR is one of the best PvE mmos on the market right now. Least up until Mirkwood. Haven't been back since that xpac came out so not sure how that content is. It's one of the few games I resub to on a regular basis simply because of how much they add to the game and how good, generally speaking, the PvE is in that game.
Of course, the PvP available in that game is about as pathetic as it comes : /
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Agreed 100%.
A good PvE game would be very nice to see for a change.
Why are the PvP games out now not what you like? What would make them better as a PvP game?
As far as PvE. There will be FFXIV, STO, SW TOR, GW2 and so on out next year. These will be mainly PvE games. I would like to see a hybrid sandbox PvE game. Something with a FPS style combat, good AI, large persistant world that can be changed by NPC's and players. Some kind of cross between FPS, RPG and Sims games. Very strange I know, but it would be different.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
How come everyone who explains MMOs uses WoW classes? Honestly I mean WoW isnt all MMOs. But anyways, I do agree with this that PVE should get a nice game. But then again FFXI pretty much made that quota, and Im sure FFXIV will do it even more so.
Lol, please do not even mention a FTP game. I only play PTP games. After playing a couple FTP games and watching my friends in the game throw hundreds of dollars a week at them just to keep up with the other guild members, I refuse to play a FTP game again. Also I do not consider FTP games to even be quality titles, but that really is a topic for another forum.
Aion, Warhammer, Eve, Darkfall and Mortal Online soon. Plenty of pvp there for those who like it. You also can do pvp in AOC if you wish. So you see there are plenty of viable options for pvpers. If you do not like any of those I guess you are out of luck.
Only PvE? no developer/publisher would do such a stupid thing. The majority of mmorpg gamers prefer both. The problem here is that the OP wishes for only pve, and you have others that just want pvp. To want just one or the other is silly, the games do horribly. Demand both, and learn to like both. PvE content expires, it requires more work for a development team which has to continuously keep adding just to satisfy the whiny pve crowd (and yes they are very whiny), where as PvP is user generated content. It is a form of replay value that keeps the game active longer while the developers have time and MONEY (due to sub numbers) to add and create more PvE content.
The OP seems to think that if any game has pvp in it, it is therefore a PvP focused game. Not so. Darkfall and Mortal online are not even AAA titles. They come from small european development studios with very limited funding, they are not going after the same market of mmorpgs, but rather a small niche market. If the OP is not paying attention to the AAA production, or lack there of of the titles.. then there are TONS of korean free to play PVE only games coming out. But it seems like the OP wouldnt want that, and neither would the PVP players. So the use of Darkfall and MO doesnt fly, and doesnt count. WAR does however, and guess what? the game is failing. Right now they are focusing on adding more and more PVE content, so you cant say there is none of that in there to play.
OP, if you really want more like you, those who cant stand any form of pvp, player driven content, and hold an illogical bias towards it, then play Vanguard Saga of Heroes, or Age of Conan (PvE server). Theres Fallen Earth & LOTR as well... you cannot say there are no PVE games that have been out. In fact, many can argue that there havent been any good PVP games, and more PvE focused titles.
I like many, look forward to a well designed AAA mmorpg that focuses on both PVE AND PVP equally and people who are not afraid to play both. The challenges are similar, the intelligence of your opponent (cpu or player) is not.
Wow, was wondering how long it would be till this forum was trolled. I am glad you can speak for the publisher about it being a stupid idea to create a PVE game. Maybe there are more people out there that like PVE then you think, if there were not then games like EQ, EQ2, LOTRO, etc would not be out and still running.
Also I never said there were not any PVE games already out there. I said I would like a new PVE game. I don't recall any whining in my post either. Maybe you should re-read the post again. Personally attacking people because they do not like what you do is no way to solve an issue. If you disagree just state why and what you would like to see.
Vanguard, I have played and maxed out on, Conan I have played, but I do not like the fight controls in it. Fallen Earth I played the beta and the trial , but it is just to buggy a game for me.
Wow, was wondering how long it would be till this forum was trolled. I am glad you can speak for the publisher about it being a stupid idea to create a PVE game. Maybe there are more people out there that like PVE then you think, if there were not then games like EQ, EQ2, LOTRO, etc would not be out and still running.
Also I never said there were not any PVE games already out there. I said I would like a new PVE game. I don't recall any whining in my post either. Maybe you should re-read the post again. Personally attacking people because they do not like what you do is no way to solve an issue. If you disagree just state why and what you would like to see.
Vanguard, I have played and maxed out on, Conan I have played, but I do not like the fight controls in it. Fallen Earth I played the beta and the trial on , but it is just to buggy a game for me.
So because you think I am wrong I am there for a troll? Are you honestly going with that argument?
I'm not trying to be offensive here, but there are some things you need to hear and mull over.
I am not speaking for Publishers, rather pointing out the obvious. They go towards the largest market, do you disagree? Do you even know how publishers these days operate or who is in charge?
From a game design perspective, it is harder to please PVE only fanboys, and it doesnt reach a wide audience. Studies have been done on what is most popular, and a mixture of pve and pvp is it. Publishers and even some development studios have entire departments dedicated to reaching the most people as possible and catering to the majority when preparing a project.
You will not see PvE only attempts being made because its a bad and stupid business move. MMORPGs are a high risk genre, unlike FPS and console games. When it comes to high risk genres, you dont do something stupid like make a PvE only game. Sorry you dont want to believe that, but its reality for ya.
A suggestion: learn to like pvp as well. If you dont, you will never be happy. I have a theory that most PvE only biased fanboys/girls tend to have insecurity issues when it comes to interaction. Playing and even losing to another play hurts their "confidence". Just my hypothesis though.
What it sounds like is that you are just never satisfied. You try to make it seem like there are tons of PVP focused games coming out, and thats not quite true. You just dismiss anything that has an equal focus of PvP. Again, read my comment about user generated content, its a design choice and one that is smart and cost effective.
Its time you learn to adapt and accept rather than complain.
Hmm, these studies that you state are published where? You have access to them so that you can quote facts on this board.
I never stated I did not like PVP, started playing PVP back with the game "Quake" on dial-up modems. Had a clan and we ruled a bunch of servers.
As far as me changing games, I have just played a lot of games over the years, started with UO (PVP) maxed out then moved on to EQ (PVE). When the content runs out, people tend to change games. Sometimes I even go back when expansions are added.
I don't think I need to adapt to any game that I do not like and I think your made up surveys are wrong. The reason WOW is so popular is that it is mainly a PVE game. So I highly doubt your insider information on gameing surveys.
Anyway, you are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. That is all I will reply on this as the subject is getting off the main topic. I do hope that they make a game that you enjoy in the future as well as a game that I enjoy playing.
Why are the PvP games out now not what you like? What would make them better as a PvP game?
As far as PvE. There will be FFXIV, STO, SW TOR, GW2 and so on out next year. These will be mainly PvE games. I would like to see a hybrid sandbox PvE game. Something with a FPS style combat, good AI, large persistant world that can be changed by NPC's and players. Some kind of cross between FPS, RPG and Sims games. Very strange I know, but it would be different.
Hmm I just to point out that there is something wrong with what is highlighted in green.
Lets start with guild wars 2. Did you play the first? The name should be a dead give a way. Its about fighting other guilds made up of other players. There will always be pve elements because that is the tool for character progression, but to say they are pve focused games is wrong.
SWTOR on the other hand is pretty much Jedi vs Sith, its going to have a balance of pvp and pve.
FFXIV is probably the move PVE centered upcoming game, mostly for the reason that pvp isnt yet popular in Japan. Not sure how STO will play out, but chances are... not very well.
Ah but you help back up what I am trying to explain to you. You suggest that when content runs out, you leave and come back for an expansion possibly. That is not the player that Publishers will want to target. PvP players stick around much longer due to player created content and conflict. They want active subs to remain constant and rise, not an uncertain "will we get them back in 6-12 months?".
As for the studies and marketing research, that is not published for the public, but shared within the industry. Similar information relating to business studies and marketing are done that way on purpose in quite a few industries. Information is expensive, and so is data. Publishers are not likely to share that information. However, I am not saying you cannot find some of it online, some smart searching and you might find results.
I am not suggesting anything irrational here, just reality. As for "made up surveys" feel free to use gamasutra as a search engine, or even mmorpg.com which has had polls concerning this very topic. Sorry you are in such denial here bub.
WoW is credited with being popular due to the balance of its design where pvp and pve are both equally active are given equal attention.
I gave you both fact and opinion. Feel free to dismiss the opinion thats backed up with fact, but dont dismiss the facts. Honestly if you were not happy with Vanguard or LOTR, i have no idea how you will enjoy anything else. Unfortately you will have to wait a long time for the type of games you imagine, because its not the way to make money these days and publishers wont go for it. Maybe if you are lucky a small development studio from europe will do the same MO and Darkfall like game with PVE only for you... but until then, the only market you will find with it is korean f2p games.
MO hasn't been released and Darkfall is still going. Try again.
Why are the PvP games out now not what you like? What would make them better as a PvP game?
As far as PvE. There will be FFXIV, STO, SW TOR, GW2 and so on out next year. These will be mainly PvE games. I would like to see a hybrid sandbox PvE game. Something with a FPS style combat, good AI, large persistant world that can be changed by NPC's and players. Some kind of cross between FPS, RPG and Sims games. Very strange I know, but it would be different.
Hmm I just to point out that there is something wrong with what is highlighted in green.
Lets start with guild wars 2. Did you play the first? The name should be a dead give a way. Its about fighting other guilds made up of other players. There will always be pve elements because that is the tool for character progression, but to say they are pve focused games is wrong.
SWTOR on the other hand is pretty much Jedi vs Sith, its going to have a balance of pvp and pve.
FFXIV is probably the move PVE centered upcoming game, mostly for the reason that pvp isnt yet popular in Japan. Not sure how STO will play out, but chances are... not very well.
I undersand what you are saying, but I did list in in most to least PvE at least.
STO will be mainly PvE with a choice of PvP with the Klingons after you start a PvE character. There will be places for PvP, but most of the game will be PvE.
SW TOR will be mainly PvE with a story. PvP will be somewhere down the line or in PvP only areas I bet.
I played GW in early beta and at release. It had both PvE and PvP. Most of the game was PvE when I played with factions added after I left. So I don't know how it will be in GW2. I do know that you will have PvE as a big part of the game though.
I still would like to know what the PvP only crowd wants from a game. The current PvP games are missing what? What would make them work, or how would you want a PvP only MMO to work?
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
That's the funny thing... PVP only games as a mmorpg in a way are a bit of a contradiction. There has to be elements of interactivity including character progression and growth. If PvP is the main feature, then there is no reason to not play a FPS instead unless they are drawn to a specific theme. Therefore there is always a form of PVE in PvP centered games. I mean, it still has to be the tool for growth, and in some ways, superiority. If you break down what pve and pvp is, there is very little difference at the core.
PvE pretty much tells a game object classified as an enemy to attack, the challenge is pretty dumb, it is predictable and its done by the computer. The reasons why MMORPGs cant have complex AI is due to the nature of the technology, too much AI or code, will make the game unplayable (huge performance hit). Therefore in PvE games, the computer is pretty stupid, enemies are in a way universal in their core behavior. No challenge at all really. So what is pvp? It takes the same concept of PvE but it has no AI to control it... in other words the input is coming from an unpredictable source, another player. It is actually in its own way, advanced AI, because its a person able to react to your interaction and vice versa.
The interaction doesnt change, just the difficulty. This is why I find it strange when PvP only supporters and PvE only supporters start making noise... its silly not accept both, or realize what they both truly are to the system.