I'm sad to say I'm not surprised. If you predict death long enough you will eventually be correct. That doesn't mean I'm happy to see VG go. I know at least a few thousand people still enjoyed it. I guess there has always been a small part of me that wanted to see it struggle back from obscurity to realize it's full potential. Perhaps that part of me will never give up. Maybe that little sliver of optimism will just exert itself on a different project.
I never could figure out the Diplomacy card game in Vanguard, I ran through the tutorial twice. It never made sense to me.
I think the diplomacy is ingenius, but just like with everything else in the game, it is too complicated at first. It is a brilliant non-combat activity and give you a lot of insight about the lore in the game.
Diplomacy is AWESOME. In my opinion, probably the most fun thing in the entire game. Vanguard has, however, a learning curve that other MMOs (or most of them) don't have. But once you learn how diplomacy works...that shit is like CRACK. Total CRACK.
I actually WISH that some developer somewhere would pick up on this feature. No other game has it, it's loads of fun, and it's challenging in a non-combat way. As a matter of fact, both crafting and diplomacy (EQ2 and Vanguard style respectively) would be WONDERFUL if other developers would ALLOW these things to be part of their games and give people an actual mini-game-ish sort of challenge a lot of people would enjoy when they just need a break from the combat.
There is still plenty of adventure to be had in Telon, provided you're not max level. And....you don't level to max level in Vanguard in a week, like in other games.
I never could figure out the Diplomacy card game in Vanguard, I ran through the tutorial twice. It never made sense to me.
I think the diplomacy is ingenius, but just like with everything else in the game, it is too complicated at first. It is a brilliant non-combat activity and give you a lot of insight about the lore in the game.
Diplomacy is AWESOME. In my opinion, probably the most fun thing in the entire game. Vanguard has, however, a learning curve that other MMOs (or most of them) don't have. But once you learn how diplomacy works...that shit is like CRACK. Total CRACK.
I actually WISH that some developer somewhere would pick up on this feature. No other game has it, it's loads of fun, and it's challenging in a non-combat way. As a matter of fact, both crafting and diplomacy (EQ2 and Vanguard style respectively) would be WONDERFUL if other developers would ALLOW these things to be part of their games and give people an actual mini-game-ish sort of challenge a lot of people would enjoy when they just need a break from the combat.
There is still plenty of adventure to be had in Telon, provided you're not max level. And....you don't level to max level in Vanguard in a week, like in other games.
Sad. Sad news indeed.
Diplomacy is one of the best concepts to come to mmos in a very long time.
Having players meaningfully interact with npcs to find out lore, quests, stories, faction, etc would add a new depth to gameplay. Anything that gives npcs more life and ability to interact with players sounds like it would be a huge bonus to me.
However I would not want it to be some mini-game as it is in VG. While it was fun to build decks and "duel" an npc, it doesn't feel like you are actually playing an mmo, but rather some little carnival game which became incredibly predictable.
I'm thrilled that Silius has finally outed himself as the lying piece of crap that he has always been. I guess they were right, 'Evil always turns upon itself'.
I made this post on December 15, 2009 it was just before Silius made his announcement about the development plans being shelved in favor of other SOE games / MMO
in accordance to the OP "What holds this game back..."
first a little background about my experience with Vanguard Saga of Heroes, I come from the Seradon Server from the guild Concilio Erus our guild is a hardcore raiding guild that has CLEARED: Ancient Port Warehouse, Nerksawl, Jagund, Dresla, Fengrot, Guar, Varking, Slim Harbinger, Initiate Nenly, Summoner Physik, Summoner Rinnipin, Summoner Nimaa
before I finally got frustrated with the game our raid has yet to kill: Summoner Yerkj, Sparkles the Lost, and Karax Woefeather but every other raid mob we have on FARM status
I play a level 55 warrior with Tier 3 Pantheon Armor currently missing the Tier 3 Pantheon Breastplate, I m currently at 22, 000 Tier 3 Pantheon of the Ancients faction and I have my Tier 3 Echo's I just need the faction and to farm my last set of Tier 2 and 3 Slivers to get my Pantheon Tier 3 Breastplate
I have main tanked every raid mob our guild has encountered to give a little background on my grouping experience I have maxed KDQ ( Shores of Darkness ) faction so I play every aspect of the game even solo a little bit in Shimmering Shallows and Sea of Kojan for runes...
What holds this game back you ask a long time veteran player like me?
1. Terrible GAME Graphics Engine Performance my Laptop is Core 2 Duo 2. 20 Ghz 3 Gigs of DDR 2 Ram, Dual Nvidia 8600M GT Video Cards and this game performs poorly on my system.
I can run it on balanced settings WHEN GROUPING but its VERY hitchy and when you go to big cities like New Targonor OR Khal / Ahgram I have SEVERE hitching
On raids I TURN OFF EVERYTHING that means ugliest graphics to get playable performance during raids but even so its still really bad performance
what is my fps ( frames per second ) on raids with every graphics option OFF: 8 - 12 frames per second its like a slide show on some areas it can go as low as 5 frames per second
to clarify where the frames get terribly bad: APW: Kotasoth Fight 8 - 12 fps, APW Storehouse Wing Zaraax Fight less than 10 fps, Guar 8 - 12 fps, Fengrot 8 - 12 fps
The Graphics Engine Issue will never be resolved because SOE does not have any resources allocated to deal with such a big task the original game engine programmer for Vanguard has left the development team, Silius himself admittedly said that they do NOT have a graphics programmer
The graphics game engine is poorly designed and no updates or plans are underway to support current SLI technology is being done so any dual or triple card upgrades have very limited performance increase as to a GAME that FULLY supports SLI or Triple SLI / Quad SLI game engine
2. Lack of Development Team Support, currently this game have a very small development team Silius, Ikik, Tiraslee are the ones that I know of and are active on the boards.
SOE is a business company and currently this is a fact Vanguard is NOT turning a profit if it was then SOE would not continually cut back on development team support on vanguard, of the 3 years I have played I witnessed SOE allocate Vanguard's developers to other SOE MMO like EQ, EQ2, and Free Realms simply because those MMO's are making money while Vanguard does not
right now Vanguard currently has NO official producer, Thom Therazz has abruptly left for EQ2 without a single word to the Vanguard Subscribers and now Silius is filling in that spot as producer / lead game designer
currently Silius has been moved to another project by SOE and will return later this year to Vanguard, ANOTHER sign that Vanguard does not turn in a profit, otherwise more developers would be put in Vanguard and not juggled around on other projects.
3. Lack of Development Team Discipline, what does this mean? a disciplined development team when they start a project they finish it, recently ALOT of projects and bugs have been left abandoned without any communication from the development team at all.
What are these projects? Class Balancing, Galleon's Unfinished ( NO paint ), Z - Axis bug ( Silius said he would fix this bug months ago yet its still here ), Flying Speed after Chunking Bug, Stairs bug, being able to go under the world bug, these are bugs that have existed since they launched the game or since they were introduced to the game
The playerbase can understand recent bugs that have just came in with a recent patch every game has that problem, however these bugs have existed since launch or since they have been introduced in game and have yet to be fixed if they are even on the list of things to do by Vanguard's Development Team.
The development team simply does not have the manpower to fix current in game bugs, graphics performance, and add in new content.
Simply put it do NOT invest your time into this game simply because it will be shut down by SOE sooner of later the development team keeps shrinking and the playerbase does not increase enough to warrant SOE to add more developers to Vanguard.
Now we are seeing my points exactly as you can see the Development Team does not have the discipline to FINISH a project that they started.
Lack of SOE's commitment to allocate the resources to Vanguard
And Finally my message to you all is that DO NOT WASTE your time this game is being SHUT DOWN
What holds this game back you ask a long time veteran player like me?
1. Terrible GAME Graphics Engine Performance my Laptop is Core 2 Duo 2. 20 Ghz 3 Gigs of DDR 2 Ram, Dual Nvidia 8600M GT Video Cards and this game performs poorly on my system.
I can run it on balanced settings WHEN GROUPING but its VERY hitchy and when you go to big cities like New Targonor OR Khal / Ahgram I have SEVERE hitching
On raids I TURN OFF EVERYTHING that means ugliest graphics to get playable performance during raids but even so its still really bad performance what is my fps ( frames per second ) on raids with every graphics option OFF: 8 - 12 frames per second its like a slide show on some areas it can go as low as 5 frames per second
to clarify where the frames get terribly bad: APW: Kotasoth Fight 8 - 12 fps, APW Storehouse Wing Zaraax Fight less than 10 fps, Guar 8 - 12 fps, Fengrot 8 - 12 fps
The Graphics Engine Issue will never be resolved because SOE does not have any resources allocated to deal with such a big task the original game engine programmer for Vanguard has left the development team, Silius himself admittedly said that they do NOT have a graphics programmer
The graphics game engine is poorly designed and no updates or plans are underway to support current SLI technology is being done so any dual or triple card upgrades have very limited performance increase as to a GAME that FULLY supports SLI or Triple SLI / Quad SLI game engine
I know this isn't really on topic but some of the performance issues you have may actually be at your end.
The 8600 cards aren't that great tbh. Actually they stink. Even though they are part of the 8xxx series, they aren't even in the same ballpark really. Also you're playing on a laptop which in and of itself could be a problem unless you know how to tweak it. Many laptops will not run at full processor speeds unless forced to do so through windows for example.
Also, SLI is over rated. Doubly so if a game doesn't support it properly which off the top of my head, not many, if any mainstream MMO's supports SLI. Most games I have played recently actually have big issues with SLI compatability. IF you want big numbers on benchmark tests, get SLI. If you want to play games, get the best single card out at the time you're purchasing.
AS for the rest of your post I couldn't agree more except for the total epeening at the beginning.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
As much as I hate giving money to SOE, as it feels like rewarding them for being idiots, I think I'll have to resub to Vanguard.
Sure the game may not go anywhere again, but unlike many others I wasn't raiding, hadn't maxed out level, and absolutely enjoyed it. I stopped playing due to low income, and since that's picked up, I think I'll go and enjoy the rest of the game.
After what SoE did to enchanters in EQ, I've never been so attached to a character since, so I guess that leaves me with the option of playing until it's over, without worrying about progression. There's a lot there I haven't seen.
But I do agree with others, SoE doesn't have the kind of history I'd like to rely on when it comes to long term investment in a game.
Sorry to break in on all the doom and gloom, but for what I enjoy in a game (exploration and PvE questing), Vanguard's been holding up very well over the half a year that my girlfriend and I have been playing. We've already played through the starting quests to the early 20s in Leth Nurae, Ca'ial Brael, Tanvu, Martok, Khal, and Halgarad, and just when I think I've seen everything there is to see in the low-level game...well, we just started some kurashasa in Lomshir, and the envoys hanging around the palace there had me cackling with delight! Just going through the other half-dozen cities and races alone will undoubtedly keep us entertained for most of 2010, never mind when we start working our toons into their 30s.
If / when they do shut it down, I wonder if they would sell the game to another company? I hope they at least make it F2P with a cash shop or something... this game is just too awesome to let rot.
/ranton
This game is such a travesty... so much money down the tubes with bad management by Sigl and SOE. When you invest upwards of 50million dollars into a MMO, you make sure it is done right. These games are high reward payoffs if you release a playable product people enjoy. Instead SOE decided to break even and release a horribly bugged out game, trying to make back as much money as possible by box sales... that created the catch 22 that it is experiencing now.
Not enough people to play = not enough profit to support a dev team = even less people playing = more dev team cuts... etc downward spiral. I hate SOE and Smedley, how does this guy still have a job? Vanguards horrible early release has to rank as one of the worst business decisions of all time. People say they were forced to do it... but when such a big payoff is at stake you find the time and money to do it right. Instead of having an awesome game with 1 million subscribers that would have lasted years and made SOE huge money, we are left with this crap.
Sorry to break in on all the doom and gloom, but for what I enjoy in a game (exploration and PvE questing), Vanguard's been holding up very well over the half a year that my girlfriend and I have been playing. We've already played through the starting quests to the early 20s in Leth Nurae, Ca'ial Brael, Tanvu, Martok, Khal, and Halgarad, and just when I think I've seen everything there is to see in the low-level game...well, we just started some kurashasa in Lomshir, and the envoys hanging around the palace there had me cackling with delight! Just going through the other half-dozen cities and races alone will undoubtedly keep us entertained for most of 2010, never mind when we start working our toons into their 30s.
Thats great for you as long as you understand the game has no future. There is tons of great content 1-50 if you can overlook all the bugs and broken mechanics. I think most the doom and gloom come from those that have played for years and were hoping against hope that the game would eventually rebound and grow. I think the writing has been on the wall for a LONG time now but some refused to see it, now they cant ignore it any longer. So enjoy it while you can as there is fun to be had if you have rl friends/family to play through the 1-50 content.
Sorry to break in on all the doom and gloom, but for what I enjoy in a game (exploration and PvE questing), Vanguard's been holding up very well over the half a year that my girlfriend and I have been playing. We've already played through the starting quests to the early 20s in Leth Nurae, Ca'ial Brael, Tanvu, Martok, Khal, and Halgarad, and just when I think I've seen everything there is to see in the low-level game...well, we just started some kurashasa in Lomshir, and the envoys hanging around the palace there had me cackling with delight! Just going through the other half-dozen cities and races alone will undoubtedly keep us entertained for most of 2010, never mind when we start working our toons into their 30s.
Thats great for you as long as you understand the game has no future. There is tons of great content 1-50 if you can overlook all the bugs and broken mechanics. I think most the doom and gloom come from those that have played for years and were hoping against hope that the game would eventually rebound and grow. I think the writing has been on the wall for a LONG time now but some refused to see it, now they cant ignore it any longer. So enjoy it while you can as there is fun to be had if you have rl friends/family to play through the 1-50 content.
Please, name one bug or broken mechanic between levels 1-50.
If / when they do shut it down, I wonder if they would sell the game to another company? I hope they at least make it F2P with a cash shop or something... this game is just too awesome to let rot. /ranton This game is such a travesty... so much money down the tubes with bad management by Sigl and SOE. When you invest upwards of 50million dollars into a MMO, you make sure it is done right. These games are high reward payoffs if you release a playable product people enjoy. Instead SOE decided to break even and release a horribly bugged out game, trying to make back as much money as possible by box sales... that created the catch 22 that it is experiencing now. Not enough people to play = not enough profit to support a dev team = even less people playing = more dev team cuts... etc downward spiral. I hate SOE and Smedley, how does this guy still have a job? Vanguards horrible early release has to rank as one of the worst business decisions of all time. People say they were forced to do it... but when such a big payoff is at stake you find the time and money to do it right. Instead of having an awesome game with 1 million subscribers that would have lasted years and made SOE huge money, we are left with this crap. /rant off
You've got a few wrong facts on which you base your assumptions.
It was not 50 milion. It was 30 million and not fully used.
It was not Smedley nor SoE who financed most of the Vanguard development. It was Microsoft, that as in 4 other previous cases stopped funding a half-developed MMORPG. (Mythica, Asheron's Call 2, ...)
Vanguard is truly the best game ever conceived (on paper). And despite all its hardships and although it probably lacks the polish and graphics of today's standards, I would even go so far as to say that it is still thee best MMORPG out there on the market today. I'm not going to go into the problems its had, having or the fixes/breaking since release, but much has changed. And those that know, know.
Its a sad story. And truthfully, there is most likely no future for this game - which, again, is sad. I've recently come back to Vanguard and am enjoying it immensely for what it is. However, I patiently wait for the day that someone comes around and makes an updated version of this excellent idea of a game. A Vanguard clone - if you will - with improved/updated ideas and features.
Until then, I'll play VG until they either shut its doors or something more innovative comes along.
Ive missed that some of devs was on drugs while VG was in work progress. Anyone care to link a good source? And its a sad day to see VG in this shape, its like watching a dead horse get beaten by a stick of some sort.
There was a disgruntled employee who was let go after the SOE acquisition that wrote a tirade about what he believed to be the reasons for VG's poor release and lack of polish. In that letter he claimed Brad to be a drug addict.
This is the only source for this info. Personally, I take the statement with a grain of salt as this guy had a major axe to grind not being one of the 'chosen' developers to stay on. His letter was emotionally laden and therefore I see the letter as his 'opinion' about what went wrong rather than substantiated facts. Although there was likely a lot of near-true info in that letter, the 'drug addict' line reminded me of a rumor more than a fact.
Sorry no link. But that is definately where it came from.
IMO a game cannot lose money unless it caries a huge debt from loans,so unless that is the case i see no reason to just pull a game,as long as it makes a little money who cares?
I have an opinion and it may carry some weight.SOE made "you know who" the leader of the gaming division because at that time it was the top notch game and had the most subs,so go figure. Soon after SOE [parent] demanded massive cutbacks and they had to do so.I believe this is just a case of a game competing against EQ and EQ its struggling badly.I believe he is trying to save his own personal agenda ,the game he invented and basically got him the position he carries now.
If the Everquest series falls and gets pulled then it makes it look like his entire gaming division is a fail.Reason is because it is their flagship game and SOE is losing a lot of money over the last few years.He may be in charge of the gaming division,but he can be yanked real quick by the big shots,especially if SOE continues to lose money the way it is.
Vanguard never failed it is a much more advanced, quality game than pretty much everything on the planet,it definitely deserves millions more subs than those pathetic FARMING games that are making millions.
To put it into perspective and show how pathetic people are ,they spend MILLIONS more on virtual fertilizer for the farming games than they do on a quality game like VG,makes you really wonder about people in general.People complain a lot about RMT ruining their games,yet here is the farming games cashing in on huge RMT and the people are spending millions on it.
There was that guy who made near a million in a few months from that Tank game for the Iphone.It was a very simplistic pile of junk yet people supported it because they wanted anything to do with their new fad.You cannot tell me VG failed while gimmicks like these flourish and make millions,no it is plain to see it is the people.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Ive missed that some of devs was on drugs while VG was in work progress. Anyone care to link a good source? And its a sad day to see VG in this shape, its like watching a dead horse get beaten by a stick of some sort.
There is no good source. Its just a rumor told enough times that some people take it as proven fact.
There is a good source. Namely Brad himself. In one of his own last blogs (not so long ago) he admitted he had addiction problem during VG's development.
Cheers
Its not a source if it cant be checked. Link or it didnt happen.
Ive missed that some of devs was on drugs while VG was in work progress. Anyone care to link a good source? And its a sad day to see VG in this shape, its like watching a dead horse get beaten by a stick of some sort.
There is no good source. Its just a rumor told enough times that some people take it as proven fact.
There is a good source. Namely Brad himself. In one of his own last blogs (not so long ago) he admitted he had addiction problem during VG's development.
Cheers
Its not a source if it cant be checked. Link or it didnt happen.
Ive missed that some of devs was on drugs while VG was in work progress. Anyone care to link a good source? And its a sad day to see VG in this shape, its like watching a dead horse get beaten by a stick of some sort.
There is no good source. Its just a rumor told enough times that some people take it as proven fact.
There is a good source. Namely Brad himself. In one of his own last blogs (not so long ago) he admitted he had addiction problem during VG's development.
Cheers
Its not a source if it cant be checked. Link or it didnt happen.
Thanks, but thats not brad posting, as was claimed by Guillermo197 (reading for the win guillermo). Thats a flame post from someone named Teclisen, on page 49 of a 100 page flame thread, in a forum called "Retard Rickshaw" on the fires of heaven website of all places. Its not a valid source.
What holds this game back you ask a long time veteran player like me?
1. Terrible GAME Graphics Engine Performance my Laptop is Core 2 Duo 2. 20 Ghz 3 Gigs of DDR 2 Ram, Dual Nvidia 8600M GT Video Cards and this game performs poorly on my system.
I can run it on balanced settings WHEN GROUPING but its VERY hitchy and when you go to big cities like New Targonor OR Khal / Ahgram I have SEVERE hitching
On raids I TURN OFF EVERYTHING that means ugliest graphics to get playable performance during raids but even so its still really bad performance what is my fps ( frames per second ) on raids with every graphics option OFF: 8 - 12 frames per second its like a slide show on some areas it can go as low as 5 frames per second
to clarify where the frames get terribly bad: APW: Kotasoth Fight 8 - 12 fps, APW Storehouse Wing Zaraax Fight less than 10 fps, Guar 8 - 12 fps, Fengrot 8 - 12 fps
The Graphics Engine Issue will never be resolved because SOE does not have any resources allocated to deal with such a big task the original game engine programmer for Vanguard has left the development team, Silius himself admittedly said that they do NOT have a graphics programmer
The graphics game engine is poorly designed and no updates or plans are underway to support current SLI technology is being done so any dual or triple card upgrades have very limited performance increase as to a GAME that FULLY supports SLI or Triple SLI / Quad SLI game engine
I know this isn't really on topic but some of the performance issues you have may actually be at your end.
The 8600 cards aren't that great tbh. Actually they stink. Even though they are part of the 8xxx series, they aren't even in the same ballpark really. Also you're playing on a laptop which in and of itself could be a problem unless you know how to tweak it. Many laptops will not run at full processor speeds unless forced to do so through windows for example.
Also, SLI is over rated. Doubly so if a game doesn't support it properly which off the top of my head, not many, if any mainstream MMO's supports SLI. Most games I have played recently actually have big issues with SLI compatability. IF you want big numbers on benchmark tests, get SLI. If you want to play games, get the best single card out at the time you're purchasing.
AS for the rest of your post I couldn't agree more except for the total epeening at the beginning.
My point here is Vanguard Graphics is POORLY coded compared to other DX9 games currently out on the market, even DX10 games with high end graphics are performing better on my sytem without hitching on areas with alot of players and buildings
A good example of a high end graphics game is Age of Conan even with 30 players and in a city I NEVER hitch as bad as vanguard on my laptop, even when those players are fighting each other and casting all sorts of spells doing all sorts of movements my frames per second do NOT dip in the 20's while on Vanguard when we raid with 18 / 24 players the frames dip to the low 15's to under 10 fps
Dual 8600M GT on SLI in Age of Connan on balanced settings I run 40 fps and no hitching
Vanguard Dual 8600M GT on SLI on balanced 25 fps and massive hitching on cities
and its not epeening its fact from a player who has played VG for 2 years and went on to do many things in game whether it be soloing / grouping / raiding I m just stating my experience and compared to the only high end graphic MMO like Age of Connan, Vanguard just performs horribly
Ive missed that some of devs was on drugs while VG was in work progress. Anyone care to link a good source? And its a sad day to see VG in this shape, its like watching a dead horse get beaten by a stick of some sort.
There is no good source. Its just a rumor told enough times that some people take it as proven fact.
There is a good source. Namely Brad himself. In one of his own last blogs (not so long ago) he admitted he had addiction problem during VG's development.
Cheers
Its not a source if it cant be checked. Link or it didnt happen.
Thanks, but thats not brad posting, as was claimed by Guillermo197 (reading for the win guillermo). Thats a flame post from someone named Teclisen, on page 49 of a 100 page flame thread, in a forum called "Retard Rickshaw" on the fires of heaven website of all places. Its not a valid source.
Correct that isn't Brad. For some reason I thought you were looking for where those comments started from.
However Teclisen (if I recall right) was a Sigil employee and for whatever reason, the Sigil developers had a love affair with posting on the FOH forums. That is where the story started anyhow, but I can't help with a link to Brad saying anything to that degree. I was under the impression his blog went silent for a long time.
Sorry to break in on all the doom and gloom, but for what I enjoy in a game (exploration and PvE questing), Vanguard's been holding up very well over the half a year that my girlfriend and I have been playing. We've already played through the starting quests to the early 20s in Leth Nurae, Ca'ial Brael, Tanvu, Martok, Khal, and Halgarad, and just when I think I've seen everything there is to see in the low-level game...well, we just started some kurashasa in Lomshir, and the envoys hanging around the palace there had me cackling with delight! Just going through the other half-dozen cities and races alone will undoubtedly keep us entertained for most of 2010, never mind when we start working our toons into their 30s.
Thats great for you as long as you understand the game has no future. There is tons of great content 1-50 if you can overlook all the bugs and broken mechanics. I think most the doom and gloom come from those that have played for years and were hoping against hope that the game would eventually rebound and grow. I think the writing has been on the wall for a LONG time now but some refused to see it, now they cant ignore it any longer. So enjoy it while you can as there is fun to be had if you have rl friends/family to play through the 1-50 content.
Please, name one bug or broken mechanic between levels 1-50.
Im not even going to dignify that stupidity with a response. Even the most rabid supporter wont deny there are tons of bugs and broken mechanics, not to mention the devs themselves.
Sorry to break in on all the doom and gloom, but for what I enjoy in a game (exploration and PvE questing), Vanguard's been holding up very well over the half a year that my girlfriend and I have been playing. We've already played through the starting quests to the early 20s in Leth Nurae, Ca'ial Brael, Tanvu, Martok, Khal, and Halgarad, and just when I think I've seen everything there is to see in the low-level game...well, we just started some kurashasa in Lomshir, and the envoys hanging around the palace there had me cackling with delight! Just going through the other half-dozen cities and races alone will undoubtedly keep us entertained for most of 2010, never mind when we start working our toons into their 30s.
Thats great for you as long as you understand the game has no future. There is tons of great content 1-50 if you can overlook all the bugs and broken mechanics. I think most the doom and gloom come from those that have played for years and were hoping against hope that the game would eventually rebound and grow. I think the writing has been on the wall for a LONG time now but some refused to see it, now they cant ignore it any longer. So enjoy it while you can as there is fun to be had if you have rl friends/family to play through the 1-50 content.
Please, name one bug or broken mechanic between levels 1-50.
Im not even going to dignify that stupidity with a response. Even the most rabid supporter wont deny there are tons of bugs and broken mechanics, not to mention the devs themselves.
Seriously. Just read the road map for next year and you can see the evidence where silius talks about old bugs still in the game.
In fact, 25% of the development cycle for 2010 has been changed from content development to being devoted purely to focused bug fixing. I can't think of another company that spends that much pure time fixing bugs. They even have a term for it, because it is such a common practice: bug bashing.
It would be pretty hard to spend 3+ months fixing bugs if there are none to be worked on.
Please, name one bug or broken mechanic between levels 1-50.
Im not even going to dignify that stupidity with a response. Even the most rabid supporter wont deny there are tons of bugs and broken mechanics, not to mention the devs themselves.
You just did respond.
Definetly there are bugs, like in every game. I still wanted you to list me a few. You didn't, but instead you insulted ("that stupidity") me eventho I didn't insult you in anyway.
I know there are certain bugs, mostly minor. In the tone of your last post, I had the impression you feel like the bugs are ground-breaking and you had to be tough to get through them, so I wanted to discuss the most severe. Unfortunately, you got down on personal level.
Seriously. Just read the road map for next year and you can see the evidence where silius talks about old bugs still in the game. In fact, 25% of the development cycle for 2010 has been changed from content development to being devoted purely to focused bug fixing. I can't think of another company that spends that much pure time fixing bugs. They even have a term for it, because it is such a common practice: bug bashing. It would be pretty hard to spend 3+ months fixing bugs if there are none to be worked on.
Anyone playing the game knows the game does not need bug fixing anymore. The game has less bugs than most of other games I do play or played recently (AoC, Lotro, DDo, FE). If you don't believe me, go and read the official forums about this thread, where most of the most loyal veterans speak the game does not need any more bug fixing. The bug fixing thing on the schedule is just to cover up another cut in the man hours within the team.
How about 'Stairs'. You know, that mostly minor bug that has gotten players stuck on in game staircases since 2007. They cant even fix it because Silius' rag tag team of game breakers don't even have a graphics programmer.
OR
That other 'minor' bug that still has 'Combat Awareness' listed as a stat. A stat that hasn't worked since...2007.
OR
That time Silius said they were going to start fixing bugs, but for us to post them in a thread because the /bug reports we had been doing for 2 years wasn't something he wanted to look at. I don't know -- Can a lead developer be a bug?
Comments
Inquisitor: Coming soon™
I'm sad to say I'm not surprised. If you predict death long enough you will eventually be correct. That doesn't mean I'm happy to see VG go. I know at least a few thousand people still enjoyed it. I guess there has always been a small part of me that wanted to see it struggle back from obscurity to realize it's full potential. Perhaps that part of me will never give up. Maybe that little sliver of optimism will just exert itself on a different project.
When will HJ release?
I think the diplomacy is ingenius, but just like with everything else in the game, it is too complicated at first. It is a brilliant non-combat activity and give you a lot of insight about the lore in the game.
Diplomacy is AWESOME. In my opinion, probably the most fun thing in the entire game. Vanguard has, however, a learning curve that other MMOs (or most of them) don't have. But once you learn how diplomacy works...that shit is like CRACK. Total CRACK.
I actually WISH that some developer somewhere would pick up on this feature. No other game has it, it's loads of fun, and it's challenging in a non-combat way. As a matter of fact, both crafting and diplomacy (EQ2 and Vanguard style respectively) would be WONDERFUL if other developers would ALLOW these things to be part of their games and give people an actual mini-game-ish sort of challenge a lot of people would enjoy when they just need a break from the combat.
There is still plenty of adventure to be had in Telon, provided you're not max level. And....you don't level to max level in Vanguard in a week, like in other games.
Sad. Sad news indeed.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I think the diplomacy is ingenius, but just like with everything else in the game, it is too complicated at first. It is a brilliant non-combat activity and give you a lot of insight about the lore in the game.
Diplomacy is AWESOME. In my opinion, probably the most fun thing in the entire game. Vanguard has, however, a learning curve that other MMOs (or most of them) don't have. But once you learn how diplomacy works...that shit is like CRACK. Total CRACK.
I actually WISH that some developer somewhere would pick up on this feature. No other game has it, it's loads of fun, and it's challenging in a non-combat way. As a matter of fact, both crafting and diplomacy (EQ2 and Vanguard style respectively) would be WONDERFUL if other developers would ALLOW these things to be part of their games and give people an actual mini-game-ish sort of challenge a lot of people would enjoy when they just need a break from the combat.
There is still plenty of adventure to be had in Telon, provided you're not max level. And....you don't level to max level in Vanguard in a week, like in other games.
Sad. Sad news indeed.
Diplomacy is one of the best concepts to come to mmos in a very long time.
Having players meaningfully interact with npcs to find out lore, quests, stories, faction, etc would add a new depth to gameplay. Anything that gives npcs more life and ability to interact with players sounds like it would be a huge bonus to me.
However I would not want it to be some mini-game as it is in VG. While it was fun to build decks and "duel" an npc, it doesn't feel like you are actually playing an mmo, but rather some little carnival game which became incredibly predictable.
I'm thrilled that Silius has finally outed himself as the lying piece of crap that he has always been. I guess they were right, 'Evil always turns upon itself'.
I made this post on December 15, 2009 it was just before Silius made his announcement about the development plans being shelved in favor of other SOE games / MMO
in accordance to the OP "What holds this game back..."
first a little background about my experience with Vanguard Saga of Heroes, I come from the Seradon Server from the guild Concilio Erus our guild is a hardcore raiding guild that has CLEARED: Ancient Port Warehouse, Nerksawl, Jagund, Dresla, Fengrot, Guar, Varking, Slim Harbinger, Initiate Nenly, Summoner Physik, Summoner Rinnipin, Summoner Nimaa
before I finally got frustrated with the game our raid has yet to kill: Summoner Yerkj, Sparkles the Lost, and Karax Woefeather but every other raid mob we have on FARM status
I play a level 55 warrior with Tier 3 Pantheon Armor currently missing the Tier 3 Pantheon Breastplate, I m currently at 22, 000 Tier 3 Pantheon of the Ancients faction and I have my Tier 3 Echo's I just need the faction and to farm my last set of Tier 2 and 3 Slivers to get my Pantheon Tier 3 Breastplate
I have main tanked every raid mob our guild has encountered to give a little background on my grouping experience I have maxed KDQ ( Shores of Darkness ) faction so I play every aspect of the game even solo a little bit in Shimmering Shallows and Sea of Kojan for runes...
What holds this game back you ask a long time veteran player like me?
1. Terrible GAME Graphics Engine Performance my Laptop is Core 2 Duo 2. 20 Ghz 3 Gigs of DDR 2 Ram, Dual Nvidia 8600M GT Video Cards and this game performs poorly on my system.
I can run it on balanced settings WHEN GROUPING but its VERY hitchy and when you go to big cities like New Targonor OR Khal / Ahgram I have SEVERE hitching
On raids I TURN OFF EVERYTHING that means ugliest graphics to get playable performance during raids but even so its still really bad performance
what is my fps ( frames per second ) on raids with every graphics option OFF: 8 - 12 frames per second its like a slide show on some areas it can go as low as 5 frames per second
to clarify where the frames get terribly bad: APW: Kotasoth Fight 8 - 12 fps, APW Storehouse Wing Zaraax Fight less than 10 fps, Guar 8 - 12 fps, Fengrot 8 - 12 fps
The Graphics Engine Issue will never be resolved because SOE does not have any resources allocated to deal with such a big task the original game engine programmer for Vanguard has left the development team, Silius himself admittedly said that they do NOT have a graphics programmer
The graphics game engine is poorly designed and no updates or plans are underway to support current SLI technology is being done so any dual or triple card upgrades have very limited performance increase as to a GAME that FULLY supports SLI or Triple SLI / Quad SLI game engine
2. Lack of Development Team Support, currently this game have a very small development team Silius, Ikik, Tiraslee are the ones that I know of and are active on the boards.
SOE is a business company and currently this is a fact Vanguard is NOT turning a profit if it was then SOE would not continually cut back on development team support on vanguard, of the 3 years I have played I witnessed SOE allocate Vanguard's developers to other SOE MMO like EQ, EQ2, and Free Realms simply because those MMO's are making money while Vanguard does not
right now Vanguard currently has NO official producer, Thom Therazz has abruptly left for EQ2 without a single word to the Vanguard Subscribers and now Silius is filling in that spot as producer / lead game designer
currently Silius has been moved to another project by SOE and will return later this year to Vanguard, ANOTHER sign that Vanguard does not turn in a profit, otherwise more developers would be put in Vanguard and not juggled around on other projects.
3. Lack of Development Team Discipline, what does this mean? a disciplined development team when they start a project they finish it, recently ALOT of projects and bugs have been left abandoned without any communication from the development team at all.
What are these projects? Class Balancing, Galleon's Unfinished ( NO paint ), Z - Axis bug ( Silius said he would fix this bug months ago yet its still here ), Flying Speed after Chunking Bug, Stairs bug, being able to go under the world bug, these are bugs that have existed since they launched the game or since they were introduced to the game
The playerbase can understand recent bugs that have just came in with a recent patch every game has that problem, however these bugs have existed since launch or since they have been introduced in game and have yet to be fixed if they are even on the list of things to do by Vanguard's Development Team.
The development team simply does not have the manpower to fix current in game bugs, graphics performance, and add in new content.
Simply put it do NOT invest your time into this game simply because it will be shut down by SOE sooner of later the development team keeps shrinking and the playerbase does not increase enough to warrant SOE to add more developers to Vanguard.
Now we are seeing my points exactly as you can see the Development Team does not have the discipline to FINISH a project that they started.
Lack of SOE's commitment to allocate the resources to Vanguard
And Finally my message to you all is that DO NOT WASTE your time this game is being SHUT DOWN
I know this isn't really on topic but some of the performance issues you have may actually be at your end.
The 8600 cards aren't that great tbh. Actually they stink. Even though they are part of the 8xxx series, they aren't even in the same ballpark really. Also you're playing on a laptop which in and of itself could be a problem unless you know how to tweak it. Many laptops will not run at full processor speeds unless forced to do so through windows for example.
Also, SLI is over rated. Doubly so if a game doesn't support it properly which off the top of my head, not many, if any mainstream MMO's supports SLI. Most games I have played recently actually have big issues with SLI compatability. IF you want big numbers on benchmark tests, get SLI. If you want to play games, get the best single card out at the time you're purchasing.
AS for the rest of your post I couldn't agree more except for the total epeening at the beginning.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
As much as I hate giving money to SOE, as it feels like rewarding them for being idiots, I think I'll have to resub to Vanguard.
Sure the game may not go anywhere again, but unlike many others I wasn't raiding, hadn't maxed out level, and absolutely enjoyed it. I stopped playing due to low income, and since that's picked up, I think I'll go and enjoy the rest of the game.
After what SoE did to enchanters in EQ, I've never been so attached to a character since, so I guess that leaves me with the option of playing until it's over, without worrying about progression. There's a lot there I haven't seen.
But I do agree with others, SoE doesn't have the kind of history I'd like to rely on when it comes to long term investment in a game.
Sorry to break in on all the doom and gloom, but for what I enjoy in a game (exploration and PvE questing), Vanguard's been holding up very well over the half a year that my girlfriend and I have been playing. We've already played through the starting quests to the early 20s in Leth Nurae, Ca'ial Brael, Tanvu, Martok, Khal, and Halgarad, and just when I think I've seen everything there is to see in the low-level game...well, we just started some kurashasa in Lomshir, and the envoys hanging around the palace there had me cackling with delight! Just going through the other half-dozen cities and races alone will undoubtedly keep us entertained for most of 2010, never mind when we start working our toons into their 30s.
If / when they do shut it down, I wonder if they would sell the game to another company? I hope they at least make it F2P with a cash shop or something... this game is just too awesome to let rot.
/ranton
This game is such a travesty... so much money down the tubes with bad management by Sigl and SOE. When you invest upwards of 50million dollars into a MMO, you make sure it is done right. These games are high reward payoffs if you release a playable product people enjoy. Instead SOE decided to break even and release a horribly bugged out game, trying to make back as much money as possible by box sales... that created the catch 22 that it is experiencing now.
Not enough people to play = not enough profit to support a dev team = even less people playing = more dev team cuts... etc downward spiral. I hate SOE and Smedley, how does this guy still have a job? Vanguards horrible early release has to rank as one of the worst business decisions of all time. People say they were forced to do it... but when such a big payoff is at stake you find the time and money to do it right. Instead of having an awesome game with 1 million subscribers that would have lasted years and made SOE huge money, we are left with this crap.
/rant off
Thats great for you as long as you understand the game has no future. There is tons of great content 1-50 if you can overlook all the bugs and broken mechanics. I think most the doom and gloom come from those that have played for years and were hoping against hope that the game would eventually rebound and grow. I think the writing has been on the wall for a LONG time now but some refused to see it, now they cant ignore it any longer. So enjoy it while you can as there is fun to be had if you have rl friends/family to play through the 1-50 content.
Thats great for you as long as you understand the game has no future. There is tons of great content 1-50 if you can overlook all the bugs and broken mechanics. I think most the doom and gloom come from those that have played for years and were hoping against hope that the game would eventually rebound and grow. I think the writing has been on the wall for a LONG time now but some refused to see it, now they cant ignore it any longer. So enjoy it while you can as there is fun to be had if you have rl friends/family to play through the 1-50 content.
Please, name one bug or broken mechanic between levels 1-50.
REALITY CHECK
You've got a few wrong facts on which you base your assumptions.
REALITY CHECK
Vanguard is truly the best game ever conceived (on paper). And despite all its hardships and although it probably lacks the polish and graphics of today's standards, I would even go so far as to say that it is still thee best MMORPG out there on the market today. I'm not going to go into the problems its had, having or the fixes/breaking since release, but much has changed. And those that know, know.
Its a sad story. And truthfully, there is most likely no future for this game - which, again, is sad. I've recently come back to Vanguard and am enjoying it immensely for what it is. However, I patiently wait for the day that someone comes around and makes an updated version of this excellent idea of a game. A Vanguard clone - if you will - with improved/updated ideas and features.
Until then, I'll play VG until they either shut its doors or something more innovative comes along.
There was a disgruntled employee who was let go after the SOE acquisition that wrote a tirade about what he believed to be the reasons for VG's poor release and lack of polish. In that letter he claimed Brad to be a drug addict.
This is the only source for this info. Personally, I take the statement with a grain of salt as this guy had a major axe to grind not being one of the 'chosen' developers to stay on. His letter was emotionally laden and therefore I see the letter as his 'opinion' about what went wrong rather than substantiated facts. Although there was likely a lot of near-true info in that letter, the 'drug addict' line reminded me of a rumor more than a fact.
Sorry no link. But that is definately where it came from.
IMO a game cannot lose money unless it caries a huge debt from loans,so unless that is the case i see no reason to just pull a game,as long as it makes a little money who cares?
I have an opinion and it may carry some weight.SOE made "you know who" the leader of the gaming division because at that time it was the top notch game and had the most subs,so go figure. Soon after SOE [parent] demanded massive cutbacks and they had to do so.I believe this is just a case of a game competing against EQ and EQ its struggling badly.I believe he is trying to save his own personal agenda ,the game he invented and basically got him the position he carries now.
If the Everquest series falls and gets pulled then it makes it look like his entire gaming division is a fail.Reason is because it is their flagship game and SOE is losing a lot of money over the last few years.He may be in charge of the gaming division,but he can be yanked real quick by the big shots,especially if SOE continues to lose money the way it is.
Vanguard never failed it is a much more advanced, quality game than pretty much everything on the planet,it definitely deserves millions more subs than those pathetic FARMING games that are making millions.
To put it into perspective and show how pathetic people are ,they spend MILLIONS more on virtual fertilizer for the farming games than they do on a quality game like VG,makes you really wonder about people in general.People complain a lot about RMT ruining their games,yet here is the farming games cashing in on huge RMT and the people are spending millions on it.
There was that guy who made near a million in a few months from that Tank game for the Iphone.It was a very simplistic pile of junk yet people supported it because they wanted anything to do with their new fad.You cannot tell me VG failed while gimmicks like these flourish and make millions,no it is plain to see it is the people.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
There is no good source. Its just a rumor told enough times that some people take it as proven fact.
There is a good source. Namely Brad himself. In one of his own last blogs (not so long ago) he admitted he had addiction problem during VG's development.
Cheers
Its not a source if it cant be checked. Link or it didnt happen.
There is no good source. Its just a rumor told enough times that some people take it as proven fact.
There is a good source. Namely Brad himself. In one of his own last blogs (not so long ago) he admitted he had addiction problem during VG's development.
Cheers
Its not a source if it cant be checked. Link or it didnt happen.
Link
There is no good source. Its just a rumor told enough times that some people take it as proven fact.
There is a good source. Namely Brad himself. In one of his own last blogs (not so long ago) he admitted he had addiction problem during VG's development.
Cheers
Its not a source if it cant be checked. Link or it didnt happen.
Link
Thanks, but thats not brad posting, as was claimed by Guillermo197 (reading for the win guillermo). Thats a flame post from someone named Teclisen, on page 49 of a 100 page flame thread, in a forum called "Retard Rickshaw" on the fires of heaven website of all places. Its not a valid source.
I know this isn't really on topic but some of the performance issues you have may actually be at your end.
The 8600 cards aren't that great tbh. Actually they stink. Even though they are part of the 8xxx series, they aren't even in the same ballpark really. Also you're playing on a laptop which in and of itself could be a problem unless you know how to tweak it. Many laptops will not run at full processor speeds unless forced to do so through windows for example.
Also, SLI is over rated. Doubly so if a game doesn't support it properly which off the top of my head, not many, if any mainstream MMO's supports SLI. Most games I have played recently actually have big issues with SLI compatability. IF you want big numbers on benchmark tests, get SLI. If you want to play games, get the best single card out at the time you're purchasing.
AS for the rest of your post I couldn't agree more except for the total epeening at the beginning.
My point here is Vanguard Graphics is POORLY coded compared to other DX9 games currently out on the market, even DX10 games with high end graphics are performing better on my sytem without hitching on areas with alot of players and buildings
A good example of a high end graphics game is Age of Conan even with 30 players and in a city I NEVER hitch as bad as vanguard on my laptop, even when those players are fighting each other and casting all sorts of spells doing all sorts of movements my frames per second do NOT dip in the 20's while on Vanguard when we raid with 18 / 24 players the frames dip to the low 15's to under 10 fps
Dual 8600M GT on SLI in Age of Connan on balanced settings I run 40 fps and no hitching
Vanguard Dual 8600M GT on SLI on balanced 25 fps and massive hitching on cities
and its not epeening its fact from a player who has played VG for 2 years and went on to do many things in game whether it be soloing / grouping / raiding I m just stating my experience and compared to the only high end graphic MMO like Age of Connan, Vanguard just performs horribly
There is no good source. Its just a rumor told enough times that some people take it as proven fact.
There is a good source. Namely Brad himself. In one of his own last blogs (not so long ago) he admitted he had addiction problem during VG's development.
Cheers
Its not a source if it cant be checked. Link or it didnt happen.
Link
Thanks, but thats not brad posting, as was claimed by Guillermo197 (reading for the win guillermo). Thats a flame post from someone named Teclisen, on page 49 of a 100 page flame thread, in a forum called "Retard Rickshaw" on the fires of heaven website of all places. Its not a valid source.
Correct that isn't Brad. For some reason I thought you were looking for where those comments started from.
However Teclisen (if I recall right) was a Sigil employee and for whatever reason, the Sigil developers had a love affair with posting on the FOH forums. That is where the story started anyhow, but I can't help with a link to Brad saying anything to that degree. I was under the impression his blog went silent for a long time.
Thats great for you as long as you understand the game has no future. There is tons of great content 1-50 if you can overlook all the bugs and broken mechanics. I think most the doom and gloom come from those that have played for years and were hoping against hope that the game would eventually rebound and grow. I think the writing has been on the wall for a LONG time now but some refused to see it, now they cant ignore it any longer. So enjoy it while you can as there is fun to be had if you have rl friends/family to play through the 1-50 content.
Please, name one bug or broken mechanic between levels 1-50.
Im not even going to dignify that stupidity with a response. Even the most rabid supporter wont deny there are tons of bugs and broken mechanics, not to mention the devs themselves.
Thats great for you as long as you understand the game has no future. There is tons of great content 1-50 if you can overlook all the bugs and broken mechanics. I think most the doom and gloom come from those that have played for years and were hoping against hope that the game would eventually rebound and grow. I think the writing has been on the wall for a LONG time now but some refused to see it, now they cant ignore it any longer. So enjoy it while you can as there is fun to be had if you have rl friends/family to play through the 1-50 content.
Please, name one bug or broken mechanic between levels 1-50.
Im not even going to dignify that stupidity with a response. Even the most rabid supporter wont deny there are tons of bugs and broken mechanics, not to mention the devs themselves.
Seriously. Just read the road map for next year and you can see the evidence where silius talks about old bugs still in the game.
In fact, 25% of the development cycle for 2010 has been changed from content development to being devoted purely to focused bug fixing. I can't think of another company that spends that much pure time fixing bugs. They even have a term for it, because it is such a common practice: bug bashing.
It would be pretty hard to spend 3+ months fixing bugs if there are none to be worked on.
Im not even going to dignify that stupidity with a response. Even the most rabid supporter wont deny there are tons of bugs and broken mechanics, not to mention the devs themselves.
You just did respond.
Definetly there are bugs, like in every game. I still wanted you to list me a few. You didn't, but instead you insulted ("that stupidity") me eventho I didn't insult you in anyway.
I know there are certain bugs, mostly minor. In the tone of your last post, I had the impression you feel like the bugs are ground-breaking and you had to be tough to get through them, so I wanted to discuss the most severe. Unfortunately, you got down on personal level.
REALITY CHECK
Anyone playing the game knows the game does not need bug fixing anymore. The game has less bugs than most of other games I do play or played recently (AoC, Lotro, DDo, FE). If you don't believe me, go and read the official forums about this thread, where most of the most loyal veterans speak the game does not need any more bug fixing. The bug fixing thing on the schedule is just to cover up another cut in the man hours within the team.
REALITY CHECK
I know there are certain bugs, mostly minor.
Rabid fan much? 60% of the population thought 'minor' bugs were a huge issue..
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